Unveiling Mormon Secrets with Dr. John Dehlin - Part 2

why did the Mormon cross the road answer to get to the other [Music] bride welcome to the cross-examiner podcast the internet's courtroom in the case of rationality versus religion here our host uses his experience as both an attorney and an atheist to put religion on trial we solemnly swear that it is the most informative education and entertaining jury duty you will ever do and now it's time for the [Music] cross-examiner welcome welcome welcome to this episode of the cross-examiner podcast I am your host the cross-examiner I an atheist I'm an attorney and I'm alarmed I'm alarmed by the rise of Christian nationalism in the United States but I'm even more alarmed by the massive amount of misinformation that is powering that rise I started this podcast to both educate and entertain and discuss the intersection of religion and government as well as other areas where religion and misinformation about religion can really harm people it's a theme of this podcast that big powerful organizations such as governments religions and other entities can and do misinform people or flat out lie in order to harm them following along that theme today we have a very special guest this is the second half of my interview with Dr John delin he is the host of Mormon stories podcast he is an ex Mormon who has dedicated his career now for the last 20 plus years to exposing some of that misinformation and outright lies so that people can be better informed of specifically about their participation in the Mormon church if you haven't watch watch the first half of our interview I strongly recommend you go back and do that this episode picks up right where we left off and we're going to continue and I think you'll find that this part of the interview is even more fascinating it gets into more of uh Dr dein's own Journey as well as more of the information that the church is trying to hide and why it's trying to hide and the effect that it's having on church membership as well as how the church is changing its strategy as a result of the exposure of all of this information do in no small part do uh to Dr dein's uh podcast so we're just going to take it away from here I hope you enjoy the interview so for you um for your Mormon story it sounds like your your sixth generation as you pointed out you were raised to believe all of the stuff what started the I don't know if you call it a Decon conversion or crisis of Faith what started your questioning of your previously held beliefs great question thanks for asking um so a common metaphor in the Mormon and postmormon world is the idea of a shelf that you you learn things along the way that that don't quite sound right and the church encourages you to kind of put them on a shelf to put them on the back burner to have faith and later you'll figure things out so there's this idea of putting items on the shelf and then the idea of cracks developing in your shelf and so you know some items that were on my shelf from a very early age you know my parents were married in the temple and you know we were taught about eternal families and that we would all be with our siblings and our parents in heaven forever well my parents got divorced when I was in middle school and then all of a sudden both of them remarried and eventually both of them remarried Mormons so they needed to get a temple divorce and then they needed to get Temple marriage to their you know third spouses respectively and all of a sudden I was left like a spiritual orphan I'm like well will I be with Mom and my stepdad or will I be with my dad and my stepmom I don't think they want to hang out together in heaven who am I with so that was a question I had from a very young age also in high school I divided the number of Mormons in the world by the number of people in the world and I got like less than one half of 1% and all my friends were like Baptist and and evangelicals and I'm like wow God really plays favorites if this is God's one true church he's he's he's really you know providing that if the whole purpose of the life is to join the one true church and less than one half of one% of his children get to do that that just doesn't seem fair so yeah and then of course I remember in 1978 when the church gave black members uh the priesthood and and the ability to enter the temple and you know and I played basketball in in KY Texas with with black friends and the the racism stuff never made sense to me so those were all cracks along the way or or shelf items that I would put on my shelf or as they say in the musical you know the light switch that you just have turn it off exactly very good we we'll we'll we should do shots every time there's a book ofur music I I my viewers know yours probably don't I am I am a huge Broadway musical fan so I don't want to I it's not my only sour but I will probably be playing some music at the end of this interview related to that because as the uh the for people who don't know Book of Mormon huge musical hit very funny uh written by the makers of South Park who are both atheists but they describe it as an atheist's Love Letter to religion and I fully agree with that being a fan of it it it it focuses on the weirdness and then saying despite the weirdness um it can inspire people to do good things so um I I I hate to harp on it I know that some people in the church don't appreciate it all my Morphin friends love it so it's it's brilliant and and um I'm a huge prob musical fan too so I I'll welcome so yeah I I turned those things off I put those items on the Shelf I had a corrupt Mission experience so I I was called to serve my two-year Mormon mission in Guatemala and long story short missionaries would go out you know there were missionaries in our mission they would go out to a soccer field on a Saturday play soccer with like 10 kids who were missing teeth and had no shoes get them really hot and then they'd bring them back to the chapel where there's a baptismal font and they would say hey you want to follow Jesus and cool off and get baptized and they would baptize like 10 kids at a time wow never um teach their parents never even get parental consent never even take them to church and then they would do that four times in a month and get 40 baptisms in a month and then teach all their you know fellow missionaries to do it and all of a sudden my mission became like the second highest baptizing mission in the world over I think 700 baptisms a month with like 150 or 200 missionaries and I thought that was horrific I thought that was like a huge egregious violation of the Holy you know ordinance of baptism and so my mission president his name was Gordon Romney he was super ambitious and he wanted to become a general Authority I think I presume he wanted to climb the ranks of church leadership he's actually a cousin to Mitt Romney and uh so he yelled at me he ended up sending me home four months early because I was expressing concern about these just grotesque baptismal practices yeah it's like um it's like the Enron of religions right it's it's all uh fraudulent paperwork basically these people never gave consent and if you are actually if you are I'm assume if you are a good arted genuine believer and you see this you have to think does our Doctrine even say that they're they're actually saved isn't our religion more than just a shaman shaking a stick over a baby or an unaccepting or unknowing person because that's all we're doing here like they're not consent knowingly consenting to believing anything or agreeing or affirming that they that they want to even investigate or or believe in this church that they're just literally oh you told me this is where the water is Splash and then you draw draw a tick mark on the chalkboard yep yeah and uh it it is fraud however religions thrive in Paradox um beliefs that contradict each other and while we're all taught that baptism is sacred we're also taught that every soul every soul is sacred and um and we're taught obedience to Authority I would say the most sacred teaching in Mormonism by far is obedience to to Authority I was I was wondering about that that no that's amazing yeah in fact we're taught obedience is the first law of Heaven um obey with exactness exact obedience as a missionary you're literally taught exact obedience and so yes baptism is sacred but every soul is sacred you can't make it into the Celestial Kingdom without a baptism and then your mission president is pressuring you so you baptize the little kid and you think well Jesus must like it because baptism is good and Jesus got baptized and my leader pressuring me to do it so it happens there's cheeseburger baptisms in Mormonism there's swimming pool or beach party baptisms there's baseball baptisms but most Mormons either block out that part of their mission or they just never learned it um but but our history definitely all the way back to the 1960s a huge chunk a third of the 177 million people that were baptized in the Mormon church that the Mormon Church claims are these type of super lowquality baptisms that came out of Mexico Central America Latin America the Philippines and now Africa and interestingly the Mormon church is actually dying in England and in Scotland and in France and in Japan and in Korea um and and even in the United States and Canada kind of the developed Western World the Mormon church is is is declining in growth and or declining in absolute membership and what it's doing to offset its decline is by baptizing like crazy in Africa because the Philippines and Latin America are kind of burned over like you know we've been baptizing they like crazy forever and they're kind of on to us and so the church is literally expanding going bananas in in in subsaharan Africa as a way to offset statistically its own hemorrhaging even in Utah like in Utah in Salt Lake City Utah every month a new Mormon Chapel is shut down closes they close Wards they close Stakes wow they're closing down missions throughout uh the world um except in Africa and you know the church would say we we love everyone and isn't a blessing we're bringing these beautiful African children we're not racist we're baptizing all these Africans into the church is in the church Progressive and loves black people when in reality a huge motivation for that is is there the last super large population of less educated more socioeconomically compromised people and it's kind of just fresh meat and that's literally a core internal motivation for our expansion in Africa which to me is kind of gross especially if you realize that they're not being taught that the church was systemically doctrinally racist for over 150 years it's it's a real and nobody talks about this type of stuff but it's absolutely a fact yeah and in my sort of cultural Zeitgeist I've absorbed a fact that as of I don't know 10 years ago the Mormon church and you can correct me on this would claim in their marketing we are the quote unquote fastest growing religion in the world at some point in my life that was a marketing pitch I saw is that something that they still claim did am I remembering right that they used to claim that in the in the ' 80s and90s the church believed that that you know by now there would be hundreds of millions of Mormons throughout the world right and it was growing bananas statistically in the 60s 70s 80s and 90s and then once these baptism techniques started to backfire uh once they started to become a PR disaster for the church once the church was not able to care for all those people who were baptized without real conversions or testimonies and then once America started fading in popularity uh worldwide um the the the the growth started to slow and then definitely once the internet around 2004 2005 with blogs and then podcasts and then Facebook and Instagram and Tik Tok and YouTube channels um the church has just gotten its its rear end handed to it as the members started to learn all the things that the church had been hiding from them for generations and that's why you know and and it's not just a Mormon thing religion overall in the developed world is on the ropes we've got this whole phenomenon called the rise of the nun n OES yep every Christian religion almost every Rel Christian denomination is in Decline and you could argue that the Mormon church is declining slight at slightly less of a of a pace but you know the past 10 20 20 years have been terrible not just for the Mormon church but for Christians Christianity across the United States and elsewhere yeah so when you are faced with this right you have your experience on a mission you um you learn this information you see what's going on with your own family and you're you're struggling to deal with all of these uh the books on your shelf getting heavier and heavier yeah um how do you deal with that what's your reaction do you do you sort of turtle up and try to defend your brain from being inquisitive or do you dig in and say um at some point you obviously say well I want to know the truth when did that happen I guess is my question yeah so I started digging in uh while after my mission I came home traumatized by the spiritual and psychological violence that my mission president sort of wrought on me but I but I needed to get really good grades to be able to have a good career so I I I started asking questions and I found some Progressive or liberal professors at BYU that I could kind of you know ask my more difficult questions too and they would give me some Progressive liberal answers that kind of pacified me uh by by graduated from college go ahead we should clarify for for our listeners uh when you say liberal I think you're meaning in a in a liberal art sort of uh Progressive type of thing not necessarily I'm voting for Biden type of thing yeah yeah so we're talking early 90s here um and and some of those professors were Democrats but that's not what I mean what I mean is you don't have to believe everything that the church teaches the church leaders make mistakes these are things you would never learn growing up right in the church you would obey follow the Prophet The Prophet speaks with God the Book of Mormon is the word of God it's the true scripture Joseph Smith was God's Prophet you know obey what you're told don't drink coffee don't drink alcohol no don't have premarital sex give 10% of your income to to the church and get married in the temple have lots of kids and um you know rinse and repeat so that's what you grow up with but then I met these professors of BYU that are like well yeah Joseph Smith made some mistakes and well you know um some people pay tithing on their net and some pay on their gross and well you know the Bible you don't have to take the flood literally maybe it was a regional flood and God didn't kill everyone and all the animals and children in the world maybe he just maybe that's just how the people at the time interpreted a regional flood and it wasn't God you know and and um you know in the Book of Mormon maybe it's history or maybe it's like Paul bunan and and you know babe in the blue ox and maybe it's myth and maybe scriptures don't have to be literal maybe they can just have good they can still be spiritual and even from God but maybe they're not historical and maybe the Earth isn't 6,000 years old and maybe maybe God created humans through the evolutionary process and then at the right point in time sent his Divine Spirits into the monkeys and that's when humans started but it was through Evolution you know and the Earth is actually billions of years old these are the types of teachings that a progressive or a liberal a spiritually doctrinally liberal Professor or Mormon leader would teach someone who is doubting and questioning and maybe it's not God's one true church maybe all churches have truth and maybe all churches are good and bad and this is our tribe but other you know there's many ways up up Mount Fuji these were the types of things I learned at BYU that made me feel like okay I don't have to leave the church I could be like a progressive Jew I could be like a you know a Reconstructionist or a reformed Jew and or or a progressive liberal Catholic and I could this could be My Tribe it could be my identity it could be how I raise my kids and give them a moral Foundation maybe it's true with the lowercase te but not true with a capital T right right and that got me that literally got me out of BYU and sort of 10 years into my married life where I'm you know working at Bane working at Arthur Anderson working at Microsoft having lots of kids doing all the stuff but always that shelf just keeps getting B way more and more weighed down with problems so it wasn't until I was at Microsoft I was in my early 30s and I was called ironically to teach what's called early early morning Seminary to Mormon high school students so every you know 6 AM Mormon high school students outside of Utah and Idaho in Arizona show up at the church and receive religious instruction for an hour each day five days a week before they go to class and that's where the church really indoctrinates its high schoolers so that they want to serve missions once they graduate from high school so I was called to be a seminary teacher or the person that indoctrinates the high school students in my isqua Washington you know Mormon Ward or congregation you know while I was working at Microsoft and it was there that I just saidou know what okay all those things I put on the Shelf now I've got some time my career is doing well most of my kids are born I'm going to start reading these books that I was warned not to read because I'm strong and I'm committed and that's when I learned about Joseph Smith's extra wives the book of Abraham and and the scriptural fraud that Joseph Smith was involved with the the fact that the Book of Mormon um does not stand up to genetic scrutiny uh you know linguistic scrutiny Geographic scrutiny anthropological scrutiny there's no scientific evidence that supports the core Book of Mormon narrative from any angle and you know we're taught that the that the Book of Mormon is the Keystone of our religion right talk Joseph Smith is next to Jesus and righteousness and when all of a sudden you find out that the Book of Mormon was probably fanfiction and that Joseph Smith was betting 14 15year olds and and motherdaughter Pairs and other women married other men that's when it all came crashing down as I was trying to be the best Seminary teacher I could be for the church so it was a weird very very weird dark time for for me and my family that that is not an uncommon story I have heard many people uh both famous uh podcasters like Matt dillah Hunty a famous atheist debater down to people who call in or friends who have talked to me and there there's a Common Thread here which is what we've discovered here which is um I I believed for some reason maybe because I didn't have even though I didn't have sufficient evidence and then there came a point in my life where something called me to shore up my belief by going and getting that EV evidence so I go and I study the Bible I study the Book of Mormon I go and read the history because surely surely in those books will be the answer aners to these questions that have been piling up my brain and that will make me a better uh Mission uh what do you call a miss a missionary a better missionary a better um example of what it is to be a good Mormon a better uh debater or whatever it may be and then they start reading and there's no there there right there's it's it's just empty or contradictory or immoral or um all three and that is a very common story that people get to that point and they realize wow to put it in Christian terms 1 Peter 3:15 tells me to always be ready to give a a reasoned defense to anybody who asks me about my hope my my faith so I want to do that but you got to give me something and then when you go to turn to the Bible or the history or the Scrolls or the moral morality there's nothing there and that's got to be um just a you have a worldview and it's got to at some point shatter that worldview and do massive psychological damage to a person yeah and and while it's a very common narrative in 2024 it was not a common narrative in in 2001 right when I went through it um there was no one to talk to I my my own brother worked at Microsoft and we're very close we always have been but and he's super smart smarter than me and he just was you know because of his personal relationship his family relationships Etc I'm like bro guess what I just learned and he's like la la la I want to talk about it I can't I can't talk about that it's gonna ruin my life and I'm like okay try and talk to my parents they're like we don't know anything about this try and talk to my Bishop he's like I don't know what you're talking about and by the way if you start talking about this and spreading these doubts to other members we're going to have a conversation right and like there was nowhere to go and and that's when I sort of reached a several year period of Despair and depression just not only my worldview had fallen apart but I couldn't talk to anyone and then but also the Silver Lining is that's where I found my purpose in life remember how I said I just did Tech because I law didn't work out and I was trying to find my purpose this became my purpose by 2004 I'm like the internet is going to blow the doors off of this problem once people are able to access the information on websites so what I'll do is I'll get ahead of that curve start a podcast and then I'll be you know through tell helping people tell stories interviewing people I'll be able to provide support for people like me and and that's that's how I left Microsoft and started Mormon stories podcast in 2005 as a way to be a solution to the problem that I knew was coming and I and I'm seeing an arc here uh in your career and your and your belief Journey that you start off like me polyi looking for a job just trying to stay focused on life but then you move into uh instructional technology that that's what you get your Ms in and then now you have a PhD in clinical and counseling psychology and you coach people on how to deal with this so I see a constant progression from heads down worker like we all start out to wanting to generally be in education and help people to oh now I've got the background I've done my Publications I've done my research I've done my training I can actually help people dealing with what presumably you were dealing with when you went through this is that what you do now with with your I I don't know if you want to call it a practice or or what but is that what you strive to do with your podcast and your and your coaching yeah so originally yeah the idea was to get a PhD in instructional technology because I knew Tech and education would be the way that I helped people and that's where I learned about podcasts I stopped with my masters because I realized that a PhD and instructional technology wasn't really going to help me I did Mormon stories as my Master's thesis for my instructional technology Masters oh and then as soon as the podcast was launched it was like I had popped a huge balloon in the sky of pain and suffering and it started growing exponentially right from the start because there were tens of thousands of Mormons around the world who were having they were a closeted gay man or woman in a mixed in a mixed orientation marriage somebody who was quote in a sex addiction meaning that occasionally they would masturbate and look at porn but they thought they were a broken oh my goodness diry perverted evil person because their wife got the masturb or whatever or maybe they harbored doubts about polygamy or Joseph Smith but they couldn't talk to anyone whatever it was um they found out about my podcast and then they would they would ask to meet me they would call me they would come to Logan Utah to meet me I would meet them whenever I would travel for my jobs with MIT um you know or or or whatever the Carnegie foundation and I just realized that there was an endless need and people would come to me telling me I'm addicted to alcohol I'm addicted to drugs I'm self Haring I'm suicidal i' I've gone five 10 years with anxiety or OCD or religious scrupulosity or depression and I'm like I don't know how to help you guys and that's when I I realized I needed to get a PhD in clinical and counseling psychology so that I could at least Point people in the right direction because it turns out there's this term Co comorbidity with a with a py ological diagnosis sometimes people have more than one diagnosis well uh several mental mental illnesses diagnosable mental illnesses like anxiety depression suicidality um you know scrupulosity uh trauma PTSD they're comorbid with a religious Faith Crisis coming out of a cult or a highd demand religion and so I needed to become educated about mental health so that at a minimum I could counsel people or refer them to someone else who could help them because they were not just coming to me with the faith crisis it's like I'm gay how do I UNG myself or I'm gay how do I come out to my wife because we have four kids and I'm I'm a bishop in the Mormon Church you know whatever right and so the psychology became a natural way for me to get a degree credentials education a research base just to be able to help the people that came to me uh from my podcast and I also thought maybe I can make a living because back in 2005 nobody was monetizing podcasts even in 2015 almost no one was monetizing podcasts because most people had never heard of podcasts even by 2014 2015 it's just been in the past eight to 10 years that podcasts have really taken off so I started a nonprofit in 2010 finished my PhD in clinical and counseling pychology in 2015 um and and that's when I just said I'll just try and do this full-time see how it goes and the truth is the nonprofit is just it's grown every single year since we started it and now I have a big staff and we're you know we're we're we grew we had over a million new subscribers to YouTube just in the previous year and the previous year before that we had a million new subscribers so we've basically gone from 50 to 250,000 YouTube subscribers in two years wow that's and so and so I don't practice psychology but occasionally I will Coach people if they just want some tips on how to navigate the complexities of a faith crisis right you can go to John lin.com and coaching but I I at most I'll have one or two clients a week I'm I don't do it for the money they I do ask people to pay but I I just do it to help people I I have more more work than I could ever to accomplish with with my podcast and with the nonprofit yeah I did go to your website um when I was getting to know what you were doing and I and I did read uh your publication section and all of that and you seem to be focused in at least correct me if I'm wrong when you were you were publishing things on that uh gay lesbian bisexual experiences as it relates to Mormonism or high demand religions um is my reading of your publication history correct is that what you were focused on sort of so the first the for my I actually um I actually met the criteria for a masters in in psychology on my way to my PhD so for my Master's thesis I developed uh with my with my adviser a treatment for religious obsessive compulsive disorder so my first real Focus clinically was on was on scrupulosity or religious OCD and so um we we ran a clinical trial and and published our results on how to treat scrupulosity or religious OCD so that was that was the first clinical focus and then I needed another Focus for my PhD and so for my PhD you have to you have to remember back in 2010 the Mormon church and most Evangelical churches Orthodox Jews they were encouraging conversion therapy for their gay lesbian or bisexual or transgender um members right right so it wasn't it it wasn't anything more than like PE I found out you know once the church the Mormon Church got into Pro you know promoting Proposition 8 in California to taking same-sex marriage away from gay samesex married Californians and then I started noticing this Rising suicide epidemic amongst gay and lesbian Mormon Youth and Young adults I kept looking in the obituary and seeing another drama student from Sandy Utah has taken his life after he served a Mormon Mission but without ever getting married I wonder and I'm stereotyping but like no absolutely form after I saw enough and and had enough podcast listeners come to me and tell me they were they were suicidal or they got into a mixed Faith marriage or they were trying to live a life of celibacy or they had engaged in conversion therapy or electric shock therapy which was a thing at briam Young University in the 70s they literally ran tests to shock you know to to deliver an electric shock to gay BYU students um there's even reports that that they administered shock to their genitals oh wow or to use chemical castration or other types of aversive stimuli to gay you know BYU students who were Mormon like there that's that's a whole thing anyway right right right the the stereotypical phrase is the light version of it is pray the gay away but it's much more Insidious than that it sounds like you know I know from a legal perspective there were a lot of cases of uh issues with kidnapping uh uh consent if if my son's 18 um I can't force him to go but I hire somebody to take him to this Camp anyway to try to do this conversion therapy stuff so it's not unique to Mormonism but it sounds like you were seeing a huge rise during this period yeah uh it was it I mean just honestly it was still that was what the church the church would say if you're gay if you're gay and a male marry a woman and it'll go away if you're gay if you're a lesbian and Mormon marry a man and have kids and it'll go away and if you need any help do conversion therapy that's how things were in 2010 so I that'll be now that I've done scrupulosity um that'll be my PhD dissertation and so I did a a I think I I don't say this to brag but I think it was a groundbreaking study at the time we surveyed uh 1,612 either current or former Mormons who identified as somewhere on the lgbtq Spectrum um it was the largest it's probably one of the largest studies of its kind in the history of the mental health field and what we showed was that um conversion therapy and and specifically religious attempts to change your sexual orientation like prayer or fasting or hyper religiosity or confessing to your Bishop were the most common and the most damaging ways that a that a gay Mormon would try and change their sex orientation we were able to um show incredible harm and uh you know that led to a TED Talk in 2013 where I um released a tedex talk where I released the results of my study to the public we published in the Journal of counseling psychology which is the Premier Flagship um research publication for counseling psychology uh we published 12 or 13 other peer-reviewed academic Journal articles from that one study of 1612 students and eventually two things happened uh the Mormon Church slowly started to discourage conversion therapy and conver discourage mixed orientation marriage and move away from its barbaric deadly teachings and they excommunicated me um because I was openly promoting same-sex marriage and that was against the church's Doctrine and theology plus by that time by 2015 my podcast had become very very popular I had been asked to be on Good Morning America VH1 Nightline like I with Mitt Romney running for president sure starting to reach out to me and have me be kind of the talking head Mormon guy right and for all those reasons in the podcast popularity the church said stop advocating for samesex marriage and shut down that podcast or we're gonna excommunicate you and I said excommunicate me because I cannot you know in good conscience shut down the podcast and stop advocating for people that are killing themselves and so the church excommunicated me in 2015 wow wow so so you are uh I'm going to sort of abstract this out a little bit because I think this is a pattern you see everywhere you are coming at the situation with observations uh experiments and evidence and pointing out a real problem and the church is saying uh we don't care about that part you know we want you to shut up and stop saying it's okay to be gay and you refuse and for that they kick you out of the church is that a fair summary yeah yeah I think that's fair yep and they didn't just they didn't just uh you know kick me out right right in then in 1992 93 94 there was a wave of excommunications of Scholars while I was at BYU they're generally known as the September 6 after me uh there was a wave of excommunications of other internet activists who were either encouraging you know women's rights in the church there were women excommunicated for that there were um others advocating for truthful history they were excommunicated and there were some one one cous man Sam young he was simply advocating for the CH for children you know Against Child Abuse within the church and against one-on-one meetings with church leaders and children where abuse often happens and Boy Scouts and the church excommunicated him a former Bishop literally just for trying to prevent child abuse in the church because they they it was embarrassing so for a good 5 to 10 years and and a mental health professional named Natasha heler she was simply teaching the masturbation healthy that um that Mormon therapists should follow ethical guidelines and not preach religion and things like conversion therapy to their clients they actually communicated her so um it's come back to bite the church but I wasn't the only one that eventually I was one of the first but I certainly wasn't the only person I communicate yeah so all of this reminds me to mention at this point for people who may be having these issues of course you can read up and and on on Dr D's work you can visit his website you can look at at the Mormon story podcast but more generally there are other organizations that I would recommend you may have heard of these or worked with them but there's recovering from religion is an organization that helps people who have been raised in religious environments that they are trying to leave and are having problems with either very hard s like if I come out to my Evangelical parents they're literally going to kick me out of the house and I will I may die all the way to I've been out of my religion for 20 years and I'm still having dreams about hell like that's they do a lot there and then there's the uh secular therapy project uh these are uh a group of therapists who promise not to bring religion into their counseling uh as a proposed Solution that's that's a high level summary but basically there's a real problem in America where you go to see a therapist and after a few weeks of getting to know you they might surprise you and say I think you need to pray more or something like that you're like what that's that's not the what I'm looking for so secular therapy project is out there and then another one that's sort of related that I wanted to ask you about is um have you heard of the clergy project yeah I've I've actually heard of all those programs for sure yeah so the clergy project for our listeners is a um an anonymous organization of people who are preachers or otherwise church leaders who have lost their faith but haven't yet left their role in the church so I'm a preacher in the small town I've don't I no longer believe in whatever religion I believe in and uh I know that if I announce this to my flock I will lose my job I will be shunned no one will I can't hire a babysitter I can't hire anybody to cut my yard I'm nobody's going to sit with me at the high school football game like my life is over and from a very young age maybe all I've done is be a preacher I don't have marketable skills so if I leave my job it's going to be maybe go work as a janitor if there's any jobs in town so a a group formed to sort of talk about these issues without being out so they could get support and strategies on how to modify and uh make their P make their sermons I'd say uh more moderated not as extreme not as literal in the Bible did you see that in when you were starting Mormon stories and people were coming to you I'm assuming initially they're off the Record before you could get anybody to be on the show and talk but did you see a similar sort of culture of an underground sort of Confederacy of people who had had their doubts and wanted to work within the church to try to change it or did you feel totally alone uh for a long time even after you started your podcast yeah so something that's different about Mormons and scientologists and jov's Witnesses and Orthodox Jews is that you're taught you're it's such an insular culture and you're taught so much suspicion of Outsiders that like a Mormon Bishop in a million years if he were struggling with his faith or even a doubting Mormon would never go to a never Mormon or even an ex Mormon to to get help wow because the because you risk your your spouse divorcing you your children disowning you your parents cutting you out of their will you risk if you're a dentist you know if you live in Idaho or Arizona or Utah there's a good chance that your clients whether you're a doctor or a dentist or a lawyer or a executive there's a good chance your your um business partners or your co-workers or your customers are Mormon and you risk marital ruin familial ruin social you you risk losing all your friends you risk losing your community because your friends are your church Co co-workers for the most part and you you risk losing your job and your income and so it that's why for me it was really important when I started Mormon stories to have it feel safe to have it it feel inviting to have it feel very Mormon not angry not even super directly confrontational or critical of the church and many tell me Mormon stories remains relatively positive and affirming and safe feeling for a questioning Mormon sure because because no in a million years those organizations you mentioned are not going to be attractive to someone coming out uh or questioning Mormonism that the I but they are great organizations sure other thing I'll say is that because we blog you know we started blogging in 2004 as as Mormons and ex Mormons and then we started podcasting with Mormon stories in 2005 and then other podcasts started emerging Mor ex Mormons kind of dominate of all the ex- religious groups you just go to go to Reddit and look up ex- scientologists ex Jehovah's Witnesses you know ex Orthodox Jews ex evangelicals nobody compares to the number of ex ex Mormons the ex Mormon subreddit has like 300,000 members again Mormon stories podcast has like 250,000 just YouTube subscribers we've got over 100,000 Facebook subscribers like 270,000 Tik Tok followers like in some ways because we had to serve ourselves and because we got at it early and developed a culture of doing and of and of serving in some ways that I think that's why Mormon stories is 60% never Mormon because we're actually leading I'm not saying other organizations aren't doing great things but in many ways whether it's you know uh you know ex X Morman Reddit blogs YouTube channels Tik Tok if you want to have a wild time just go to Tik Tok and type in X Mormon there are billions and billions and billions of views of hundreds if not thousands of of EX Mormon Tik Tock con content creators that are creating amazing creative uh Tik Tok videos every single day so I'm really proud of the ex Mormon the progressive and the postmormon and the ex Mormon communities for the way that we've not only helped each other as kind of pioneers in the tech world but as we've kind of in some ways shown leadership to the rest of the world and certainly to ex-members of other Cults or high demand religions and you know I've had Jehovah's Witnesses on Mormon stories uh you know Leah Remy and Mike rinder came on St um you know Sarah ED Edmonson of Nexium like I'm I'm very proud of my collaborations you know Stephen Hassen we've brought Stephen Hassen the the world cult expert to Utah had him do you know a retreat here brought him on the podcast I'm super happy that we've collaborated with so many amazing um with so many members of other Cults or or high demand religions should say yeah and and I said at the beginning that I would get back to uh that we would eventually work ourselves back to this concept that there's 60% never Mormons listen to your podcast and I was one of them and I think in talking you today I I have explored I've been thinking all along where is it where's the hook what is it that fascinates me and I think it's I mean I don't want to I want to make it sound mundane but I think it is the same reason that I like reading novels or watching movies is every story is different and every story addresses a very core human condition that is then possibly exploited by a religious organization and that condition is a desire to feel like you're mean something this this this psychological state of I am you know the center of things and so I want to mean something and I want to be part of something bigger and religions have developed to take advantage of that instinct and it's so powerful that instinct is so powerful that it can cause people to go through um changes in belief that seem very fascinating to somebody who's never been through that and it makes one worry about your yourself like if I had been born in um in the middle of uh a different Nation you know if I was born let's say in Rome I might be Roman Catholic instead of an atheist right now or if I was born in Utah I might be a Mormon right now and the realization of that that what religion you are really depends almost entirely on where you were born and who your parents were can be very scary to people like are we really that malleable in our beliefs and hearing your stories of person after person coming on and telling a similar story to yours with with important differences paints a very broad brush to say everybody goes through this everybody it's not just a Mormon thing it's not just a cult thing it there are Catholics struggling with mass amount of guilt there are as you said Orthodox Jews who were trying to figure out what to do with uh their children because they're they know that they're not supposed to get them vaccinated there's Christian Scientists who don't want to let their kids die but they wish that the church would just change their policy but they feel stuck like they have to not treat their kids because of this community because of all of these instincts so hearing you talk about this I think for non-mormons it's both educational but also fascinatingly scary and interesting um study of The Human Condition like a very core piece of the human condition that it makes listening to your show makes me feel like we're all in the same boat it may about be about different things or different religions or whatever but everybody is just trying to figure out life be a good person yeah enjoy themselves while they have time on this Earth and try to help other people and that's what I hear time and time again on your show is that where that that tends to be where people end up and that seems to be where you have ended up that you have gone through this transition from being a uh six gener LDS that was kept in the dark to getting involved in education getting involved in information dissemination to being now uh running this uh this podcast that is changing lives left and right uh how does that feel looking back on that yeah well thank you so much for that acknowledgement and I'll just say like I remember when I saw the village for the first time or or Pleasantville or yes The Truman Show right like wait or Tangled I'm like wait that's they're describing wait were those guys Mormon that made those movies because like idea of like a fake reality that was created for you no spoilers intended right where you're you're part of this contrived reality and and then at some point you discover there's something not right and then you you start questioning it and maybe you break out of it and then you you realize that people don't like it when you break the mold and then you're World kind of falls apart but you also experience Freedom that's the Matrix Tangled Truman Show Pleasantville history The Invention of Lying smallfoot like there's so many movies that tell that same story and after I realize that none of those filmmakers were Mormon I'm like wait a minute maybe maybe other people are experiencing this too and then I watch going clear about scientology and then I watched the Keith rer stuff about Nexium and I watched the war and Jeff stuff about the flds church and Jim Jones and you start learning about cults and other high demanded religions and then you you you watch just the stuff about evangelicals and and like uh God forbid about about Jerry fwell Jr and Liberty University and you're just like oh there's Cults everywhere and it's not just religions mlms and and businesses can be Cults the military can be can have cult characteristics corporations and and and and family systems can have cult Dynamics and then you just realize what I realized was and this has been my personal mantra for Mormon stories for many years now it's the Mormon story is the human story and vice versa and people some just like I learned more about Mormonism from going clear the documentary on Scientology than I ever did you know listening to a Mormon podcast or watching a Mormon YouTube channel Channel or reading a book about Mormonism because I felt that on a spiritual or a I should say emotional level because I saw it I felt safe enough to see it in another tradition and then to tie it back to myself emotionally and then I realized whoa that's what that's what Mormon stories can do to other people it feels oh it's those weird peculiar Mormons they've got the Osmond and Steve Young and D they're kind of fun and they're clean you know smiley happy families but then there's this weird Dark Side what's going on here and we're just interesting and entertaining enough for people to pay attention and then they realize that they're not just seeing a quirky Mormon story so many people are seeing their own stories right within Mormon stories and it's been very gratifying to to grow our influence and to help contribute just to the broader world because at the end of the day we're all humans right it's right it's not the family it's the Human family and I'm I'm proud to when I when I was kicked out of the Mormon church I felt sad that I was kicked out of the Mormon church but I realized that I kind of joined the human race when I was kicked out of the Mormon church and that was that was a trade up as far as I was concerned wonderful so if if if the Mormon story is the human story where are you what chapter are you in now for your Mormon story for your human story if you're not a Mormon now what would you call yourself what what are your beliefs at this point in in a religious sense if you don't mind me asking yeah so um yeah I I don't this is probably an answer you'll hear a lot um I've never been comfortable assuming the identity of of atheist or agnostic sure for several reasons and I believe me I get that there's a courageous element to facing the negative stereotypes and owning that title to make it more acceptable to Bear those arrows so that others can come along later and feel comfortable if they want to identifying as well because obviously I'm sure it's still true that atheists have lower approval ratings than like child molesters like bad it's still bad never been elected to office almost never in the United States so I I respect respect people who take that on what I decided very early on um when I lost my Mormon faith number one no other Church in the world um every single Church reminded me of the Mormon Church once I Scrat underneath the surface so okay I thought about episcopalians they're Progressive yeah but they still have problems and and evangelicals and Presbyterians and lutherans and Jews and Muslims they've all got problems and and they all have the same formula of like God talked to that other guy and then we're supposed to believe the experience that some other guy had and by the way almost all of those other guys wanted their money or wanted their wives or wanted sex or you know or like taught genocide or bigotry or racism or sexism or homophobia or the scriptures that that they believed in were racist sexist homophobic and often genocidal so like there was not a church we had we investigated we spent a couple years attending every church we could sure and finally we realized that the Bible has as many problems if not more problems in the Book of Mormon and I I don't want to offend my Christian listeners but just learn about historical criticism and biblical criticism and Science and you'll realize that that the Bible's got major problems so but at the same time I was committed to Effectiveness to reaching the most amount of people people that I could and you may as well tell a Mormon you're a child molester if you're going to tell him you're an atheist or an agnostic they will immediately shut you off so I just decided for that reason I was never gonna identify as an atheist or agnostic also also I um I realized for me and and I know this won't sound clever to you I'm sure you've heard it a million times I don't identify as someone who's an a Easter bunny or an a Santa IST sure like I there no part of my identity what I call myself right that has anything to do with all the things I don't believe right and and while I get I get the terms I thought is religion credible enough and worthy enough of of taking up space in my identity and to be honest part of why I don't identify as an atheist or agnostic is because I find the propositions so Preposterous and so absurd and So Unworthy in a scientific modern um sort of era of sensibility that it's not worth any part of my identity right right so so for those reasons um and mostly just because I want to be super effective I've literally never called myself an atheist or an agnostic I do believe that nobody knows so I think that literally meets the criteria of agnostic if you don't believe that anyone knows anything about metaphysical Supernatural stuff so I think everybody's an agnostic if if you look at now there are people that don't know their agnostic right but most smart thoughtful people will acknowledge that like well they think their beliefs are true but they could be wrong you know what I mean right and that they don't know for sure the zealots who say they know they're the scar in my mind they're the the most dangerous people of all right so so anyway you can see where I stand with agnosticism sure and I guess I've already told you my approach to not labeling myself as an atheist no that that that is uh a very uh practical approach and I find the labels are used lots of different ways uh just to know where I'm coming from I do call myself an atheist but it's because the way that I find as we're moving through a maturing uh society that understands that the that there's subtlety uh to these sorts of questions the way that I find it's most commonly defined is are you convinced that there's a God do you believe that there's a God and if you don't say yes to that then you lack a belief in God and that's that's the a part of the theist so that's it's not anything other than that am I convinced there's not a God no it's sort of like from the legal perspective uh we find people not guilty we don't find them innocent I I don't find I find God not guilty of existing I don't find him innocent of existing I I I can't prove or say that there is no God I can just say that of the of the versions of God that people have presented to me so far I have not been presented with sufficient evidence therefore I don't believe and I totally agree with you regarding the a Easter bunest and the a Lochness monist right that's that's another issue I think the reason some people choose to go ahead and take on the label though is we don't have um Easter bunns in Congress saying we don't have to invent investigate climate change because God promised he would never flood the Earth again it's sort of a common Trope that you get in the atheist Community is oh why do you care so much if you don't believe why do you care well we care and we take on name because there are people not just off in their corner and saying I believe this personally right I have I have many many religious friends they have their own faiths we have lots of interesting discussions but the minute that somebody says not only do I have these beliefs but that in belief includes the fact that there is a God and that I understand what that God wants and he wants me to do something that's when we start running into danger and then those people get elected and we we see what we're seeing in the world today so I totally am uh on board with your way of thinking that yes 100% if you in especially in this country if you come out and say I'm an aist regarding religion um people are going to shut down needlessly because they've been taught um that they are that atheism or agnosticism or any sort of disbelief or skepticism even is a bad word I even heard people call in and tell me that it uh heard I had people call in and tell me that I was a uh atheist Muslim they don't even understand what the word means it's it's like Communists now that in the political circles like if I disagree with you I'm going to call you a communist if I think you're bad person I'm going to call you an atheist the word is almost lost meaning other than to mean I'm on the wrong team so I I agree I don't bring it up except for for example when I do a podcast and if you're in the in you're in the mission of helping people who are struggling with religion bringing any sort of label to a belief system if the question even comes up when they're talking to you can really shut people down I've seen it happen as soon as you say like when I was early uh early sort of realizing I was an atheist most atheists will go through a angry atheist phase and there's probably an angry fa ex Mormon phase too where my anger came from I really didn't care until I saw people doing things in the world like telling me that I couldn't play Dungeons and Dragons because it was demonic or uh passing laws are you know saying that we don't need to research AIDS because gay people are bringing this on on on God's Wrath and that's when I'm like okay I must be missing something like in all my little schooling and and and Sunday school Tales I didn't hear that part of the Bible so let me go research it and then once you go research it and you realize it's all BS as far as like what the politicians are saying is not scriptural or not historical you get very angry you're like you're being fooled we're all being fooled I I would have sworn that there was there's got to be something more that has convinced all these people are right nope it turns out that a lot of people haven't even read their Bibles they listen to their preachers they listen to their politicians and they just do what they say so that's where I come from that's sort of what what really inspired me uh to start being sort of a vocal activist because I went through that angry phase for a couple of years and then I came into where I am now which is I just want to talk to people I find the stories fascinating and I want to understand how religion is being used to create political violence try to take over governments things like that when when when all the evidence is that if people actually go and read their scriptures if a people really dive into the claims of their religion they they moderate their views they at least moderate their views if not abandon them and that's that's sort of the goal and I really respect I I really respect that approach secular humanism um all those types of movements I really respect I will add one last final thing just as a little bone for my Christians and out there I love the idea of mystery I love the idea of Wonder and I love the idea of epistemic humility which is like I don't know for sure anything I don't for sure and I I know that there are plenty of atheists and agnostics that are humble in fact atheism and agnosticism is a move for many towards humility but we all know the insufferable atheists out there that wna they're more Miss they're more zealous as missionaries than they were as Believers right and they want to convert and they're they're absolutely certain that there's no God even though I know that's a bit of a Canard and I just like the idea of saying maybe there's some power out there maybe there's some Force maybe there's some organizing thing or maybe maybe who knows small chance there's life after but like right would I like to keep living on sure so if if I die and find out there's an afterlife am I gonna like be bummed I'm G be like no so I mean I do like the idea one of the reasons I also don't identify as atheist or agnostic is because like I like staying open and who knows maybe some of the stuff small chance but maybe some of this stuff true or it's true in a way that we don't fully understand right and um and so I'm just gonna remain open and and and honestly I think a lot of Jesus's teachings Golden Rule stuff are super legit and super valid and I think religions often do a good job of creating meaning identity purpose Community friends and uh and so like I'm I'm a I'm at least a secular Christian in in many ways not all the ways sure but in many ways I think I think if if more of us did a better job of listening to Jesus and following some of his core teachings the world would be better off that's what I think I I agree I agree there there it the the New Testament is written almost as a Band-Aid over the character of God in the Old Testament right wrath and Vengeance and genocide in the Old Testament and then um I I I told you before I I'm doing a long series on faith healing if if Jesus is portrayed as anything in the New Testament He Is A Healer he is a doctor he is about medicine he is the one the first time in the Bible that he says don't treat children as property you know suffer the young children right put up with them because before then kids were property you could kill them they were H girls were hassle let's let's bury him in the pit Jesus is the one who comes along in in the character of Jesus at least and says suffer the young children put up with them uh he heals left and right he makes people have better lives and that's I think there's many many many Christians that hear that message and say I can get behind that and I'm going to support it and that leads to a very rewarding Community a very rewarding sort of spiritual Journey for them although I don't you know spiritual is a very wishy-washy word but it it does something for them in in maybe a um a uh finding their place in the universe or finding a purpose right again to reference the The Book of Mormon you know um it's a love letter to religion from somebody who doesn't believe like there are a lot of good things out there so um I I totally agree with you you need to find out what you're comfortable and to me I don't care about the labels as much as having ations where we sort of Define terms on our own because no two atheists are alike I'm sure no two Mormons are alike no two agnostics are alike um you have to find out where people stand and meet them on their own ground in order to have a conversation and then decide if you guys can identify politely where you agree and where you disagree and then where you disagree decide well how do we figure this out what method do we have as humans to figure out am I right are you right or neither of us right and we can do that in a way a polite way an investigatory way um and we don't need labels to do that yeah yeah I love it all right really good and I'm really glad to to learn that you're out there I've just started to watch Matt dillah Hunty and I think he's smart I I need to check out The Atheist Experience as well and there's just we we as ex Mormons need to get out of our little um uh you know Bubbles and uh bubbles inside Bubbles and learn more about the big the big beautiful secular world out there honestly right yeah and I will say um I'm sure The Atheist Experience would love to have you on a guest if you'd like The Atheist Experience show is a call-in show people will call in and and we ask them what do you believe and why and then we talk about the wise and typically it will be a discussion of well what reasoning are you using to get there and we TR we typic our main goal of course is to um spread the positive image of atheism that hey we aren't we aren't the bad guys you've been told about we're just people that haven't been convinced yet you know I'll put the yet on there I haven't been convinced yet right I may be presented with evidence um but but we don't want people to become extremists right you know if we can have conversations where we point out flaws in their logic and ask them to go back and do more reading or whatever they will moderate their views again and that's sort of my theme if we all moderate our views a little bit we're less likely to have um you know the handmade tale become a reality that's that's what we're worried about so um uh I know we're way over time I really appreciate all the time that you've given me is there anything else that you'd like to bring up for example where can people find you online what's the best place to go and see your work and start participating in your Mormon stories podcast yeah I think I think you know um the best place to probably have the Mormon stories experience is on YouTube uh that you know we do make some money off of the ads of course if you have YouTube premium you get to skip the ads so that's what I recommend is 10 bucks a month get YouTube premium and then watch us there and if you have YouTube premium and you just want to listen let's say you watch for an hour and then you want to just take it on your jog YouTube premium allows you to listen even while your um your iPod is in you know lock screen mode or whatever so I would say number one way for us um is is the YouTube we're also available on Spotify we're also available on Apple podcasts uh that's where we started is on on iTunes that became Apple podcast and then we have a Facebook um a Facebook page that has over 100,000 followers we do release our interviews on Facebook we have to break them up into chunks right um we we also have a Tik Tok Channel where we release shorts for um Mormon stories you can watch little one to two minute Clips uh we've got like 270 or 260,000 subscribers on Tik Tok at this point it's probably our largest platform in terms of subscribers it might be going away uh 50,000 followers on Instagram we also release our shorts as reals on Instagram um we don't do much on Tik Tok so those are the different ways you can check us out and then we are donor supported so if any of you like what we do and want to see it continue we're a 501c3 nonprofit profit we're transparent in our finances we feel like we run the organization transparently and ethically and if you go to Mormon stories.org and click on the Donate button you can become a monthly donor and that's the way to financially support what we do that's wonderful that's wonderful I will give a shout out it's not my organization I merely am one of their hosts but the atheist community of Austin does is a similar situation they too are a 501c3 organization with a board of directors that is managing them and they are uh um they produce lots of different shows The Atheist Experience uh talk Heathen truth wanted the nonprofits there's a bunch of uh call-in shows and some just uh Hot Topic discussion shows that have this mission of trying to get people talking about what they believe and why and then try to enforce the separation of church and state and then of course there's my podcast you can find me on as the cross-examiner podcast on any podcasting platform or you can just go to my website at uh the the cross examiner.net is my uh my podcast because apparently cross examiner.com was taken for I don't know they wanted they wanted $50,000 for it I'm not gonna do that so um yeah exactly uh John it's been an absolute thrill talking to you you've really educated me and you've given me a lot of things to think about and more than anything I think you've given me hope um I got to admit that looking at the rise of um things like qanon and radical um political organizations that are trying to take over the government and do really bad things in the name of religion or by exploiting people's religious beliefs really is stressing and depressing but hearing your story and hearing how you help other people and showing that the internet in fact can be a tool for good it's not all just misleading memes it's actually Deep dive convers ations that get into the nitty-gritty and that has helped people sort of moderate their views come out of a religion that they weren't happy in um that's really encouraging so thank you for what you're doing and thank you for taking the time to talk with me thank you uh Graham it's so nice to meet you it's so nice to learn about your podcast and all of your efforts as well you're a professional interviewer uh you ask great questions and uh I'm honored that you would spend the time to learn about my story to share it with your audience and I really do encourage my audience to check out both your podcast and the atheist atheist experience if you're looking for that type of stuff but let's let's keep collaborating we need more cross culture collaborations and so let's let's do a little bit more I agree 100% uh I look forward to chatting with you uh anytime you want and um in the future I will make sure to send people over I will I will say for my audience I know that a lot of you like my sort of lengthy Deep dive stories um John's stories on Mormon uh stories is uh 10 times what I do he really gets into the nitty-gritty he really takes the time to let you get to know the person he's interviewing or the topic topic he's showing so I know my audience would love to go over and listen to your content as well because it it's drawn me and it's all I listened to for the last several weeks since I since I discovered what you do well thank you all right all right thanks so much and and yall take care bye bye and we'll hope to see you again soon thanks CR thanks and there you have it that's my interview with Dr John delin if you haven't heard the first part I do recommend you go back and watch it it's very compelling it contains a lot of context setting that you might not have picked up in this first part I'll put a link to that in the description of this podcast and in the description of the YouTube video video I also recommend strongly recommend you go and listen to Mormon stories podcast uh his podcast is compelling it has humans telling their own experience in a very deep and detailed way it's very relatable and really helps you understand what it's like to walk in somebody else's shoes who has been grappling with these Concepts if you were grappling it will be very relatable and if you've never had to deal with this it will help you be more compassionate and more understanding to people who are brought up in these high demand cult-like religions so I'll put a link to that in the description below and finally if you haven't done so um I am starting to find some success with this podcast it's starting to grow and the way that that is happening is through just people liking and subscribing to my YouTube channel or to uh any one of the many podcast platforms out there you may notice I do not get any re Vue for doing this is a totally volunteer operation um I do this as both a hobby and as my activism so I don't run any ads or anything like that so if you could take a second to like And subscribe I'd really appreciate it it will really help the channel grow and it will help me reach more people with my message which is hey before you accept UNS skeptically what any large organization is telling you do a little bit of research learn what the law is learn what the rules are learn what the facts are and you can avoid being tricked into acting against your own self-interest so with that I really look forward to seeing you again in my next episode bye-bye for now this has been the cross-examiner podcast the internet's courtroom in the case of rationality versus religion if you enjoyed this podcast please consider subscribing see you soon [Music] ah [Music]

Channel: The Cross Examiner

Views: 12,949

Keywords: Mormon Stories, Dr. John Dehlin, Ex-Mormon, Faith Crisis, Christian Nationalism, Religious Indoctrination, Shelf Items, Mission Experiences, Ethical Concerns, Internet And Information, Psychological Impact, Secular Counseling, Rise Of The Nones, Decline In Membership, Harmful Religious Practices, Secular Support Systems, Ex-Religious Communities, Cross Examiner Podcast, Rationality Vs. Religion, Personal Transformation

Id: 9jyuMNzRCMc

Length: 78min 15sec (4695 seconds)

Published: Mon Jun 10 2024