'Tuskegee Top Gun' James Harvey, the First African American Jet Combat Pilot

I finished combat training in Walterboro South Carolina in April of 1945 I had my bags packed within one hour of catching the train to go to Norfolk to get on the ship go over to Europe and join the group we got a message saying to hulless the war in Italy was over and expected to wind up the whole European theater well Hitler gave up the following month of May so I would have been on the high seas so that's why I didn't make it to Europe Hitler knew I was coming that's why he threw in the towel and following lot to make that's right that's welcome to veterans Chronicles I'm Greg caramba our guest today is retired US Air Force lieutenant colonel James Harvey the third he's a veteran of World War two and the Korean War he's also a member of the legendary Tuskegee Airmen I'm Colonel Harvey thanks so much for being with us thank you where were you born and raised sir I was born in my clarin on the Jersey and raised in northeastern Pennsylvania old small town called New Angola station you can tell how big that places that's by the name anytime it's got station it's probably pretty small it was a train station so that's why they call it station and how old were you when Pearl Harbor struck oh boy let's see I was 17 do you remember what your immediate reaction was that Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor so we're at war so did you feel air war with them but no I didn't feel anything no no instinct to serve at that point no so when you were growing up did you have any interest or experience in aviation no none so why did I get an aviation well I lived in no mountaintop Waldo Gawler station and the flight of p-40s over in formation in my heart stand in my yard and I saw this and I said I'd like to do that one day and that was it that's it that was it so when did you join the service I went in in March of 43 and did redrafted order unless hmm did you enlist no I tried to enlist in the Army Air Corps in January of 43 and they said they weren't taking enlistments at that time that was like the war so then it dawned on me why they didn't want me so I was drafted in March of 43 into the army what was your reaction when they said No okay they're right in the show it's nothing I could do about it so so a few months later you are in the service yes then where did you go I went to Fort Meade Maryland and took my shots got my uniform and took a written exam then they sent me to Jefferson Barracks Missouri for 30 days of basic training and when I finished my basic training they sent me to Fort Belvoir engineer on Fort Belvoir Virginia Army Air Corps engineers driving bulldozers graders carry all my mission was to go into the jungles in the Pacific doles out an area bill an airfield for aircraft to land on and we used to lot in practice every day and I says no this isn't for me so I applied for cadet training was accepted and there were ten of us nine whites and myself it took the exam two of us pass then from there I went to Kiesler field for 30 days of basic training and from there to Tuskegee and then the rest is history so what did the training consist of at Tuskegee Tuskegee primary basic in advance complete training program the white cadets each phase of their training they went to a different airfield but since things were segregated at that time we had everything at one - airfields they're both close together Mountain feel and they built a brand new airfield force Tuskegee Army Airfield that's where we got our basic in advance on that airfield so when is the first time you got behind the controls well that was in Nazi I don't remember the month I was at Moton field was in 1819 it wasn't the Stearman this was a low-wing monoplane and more like a fighter and that's what I flew in primary what did it feel like the first time you got up there felt good I never experienced anything like it afore before of course but it felt good yes it's great so was it what you expected I think so I didn't know what to expect I didn't know what to expect but I enjoyed it and this is something I can do really is he see I was a perfectionist and perfectionist they can do anything there you go so now you joined as you mentioned towards it was 1943 but did you you did not make it to Europe correct correct so what were you doing at the time of the conclusion of World War two well let's put it this way I finished combat training in Walterboro South Carolina in April of 1945 and my bags packed within one hour of catching the train to go to Norfolk to get on a ship go over to Europe and join the group we got a message saying to holus the war in it was over and expected to wind up the whole European theater well Hitler gave up the following month of May so I would have been on the high seas so that's why I didn't make it to Europe you know you were coming you didn't wanna mm-hmm he said he knew you were coming Hitler knew I was coming that's why he threw in the towel and following want to make that's right that's very so after the war two years after the war to be accurate President Truman desegregated the Armed Forces right what did that mean for you didn't mean a thing things continued on the way they were so there was no integration no none whatsoever as far as the 332nd goes which was us right absolutely now before Korea and we'll talk a lot about Korea in just a moment folks can tell by your hat that she did something very interesting in 1949 right and that you were not only at the first Top Gun you want the first Top Gun correct tell us about it okay and I'd say January of 49 the chief of staff of the Air Force sent out a directive to all the fighter groups in United States that they were to participate in gunnery competition or weapons competition well then between eight squadron and in each group and they repeat their three high scores as primary members and an alternate member to represent their group at the first ever Top Gun weapons me to be held at Las Vegas Air Force Base Nevada and as today it's known as Nellis well the 332nd which is us we had scores because we had been to England seven a month prior so based on our scores captain temple of the 301st Tennant Harry steward of the 100th and myself of the 99th were chosen as primary members and first lieutenant Albert Alexander of the 99th as an alternate member so that was our team and before we left Locke born heading to Las Vegas Air Force Base we met with Colonel Davis and was he was the group commander and his departing remark was if you don't win don't come back so roughly when with those words of encouragement talk about him real briefly what was it about Davis that made him a good leader well he was a West Point graduate and right there that tells you something although he had the silent treatment while he was there no one spoke to him he ate by himself he ruined by himself he swam by himself in the pool though he was just a loner you could say there are 365 in the class each graduated number 35 and despite all of that stuff but he was a good man good man all right so let's get out to Top Gun what does the petition consistent competition for that meat consisted of aerial gunnery at 20,000 feet aerial gunnery at 12,000 feet dive bombing skip bombing rocket firing and panel strafing now skip bombing you come in very low to the ground you propel are clearing the ground by about a foot and when you release your bombs you're so low they don't have a chance to nose over yet so they hit flat and skip through the target and so as this unfolded you guys were pretty much in the lead the whole time right we lit start to finish what are you thinking as this is happening this is why it's supposed to be we're the other crews surprised that you were winning so easily yes they didn't care for it I'll tell you why this is my estimation just before the last event which was panelled strafing let me back up they're going to issue two trophies one for high individual and one for high group well captain temple of our team was high individual through every event he was high individual and we as a team through every event a high group so we had one more mission to go which was panel strafing there was a guy on a p-51 outfit that was close behind temple for high individual now this is my thinking one more event to go they didn't want to see us take everything they wanted to get something out of this because we had a lock on the meet so the only thing left is high individual so we had it one of the rules of the meet was if you have to abort your team members take off their score is counted yours is zero we had a guy in a fifty-one outfit who was close behind temple he had to abort the game another airplane right there they broke the rules his score was so high I think they gave extra bullets for the event anyway he aced temple out of high place for high individual but we won the meet however we were never recognized as the winner the Air Force Association puts out a magazine every month but once a year they put on an almanac and in that almanac are the winners of each of the weapons mates from 1949 through present day today it's called rent flight anyway each year without almond I came out the winner of the 1949 weapons meet was listed as unknown unknown unknown finally in 1995 our group commander Colonel Campbell called lieutenant Stewart and asking to be the information on the weapons mate and he said no he didn't have it maybe I did he called me and I told my didn't have it maybe he could find it at wright-patt so I'm sorry Nellis so I went to Nellis he found what he was looking for and he presented it to the Air Force and as of April of 1995 it shows the 332nd as the winner of the 1949 weapons meet 46 years they knew who won but they just didn't want to recognize us so the only reason we were recognized as we had to submit the paperwork to Air Force thank you even as late as 1995 1995 they weren't admitting it but now they do now they do it's on display well let me back up again we got a big this three foot high a solid silver trophy somehow that got lost we have a lady in Atlanta her name is Ellie or she is a historian she made it her mission to find it she found it in five days at wright-patterson Air Force Base Museum storage area so she went to write bad she saw the trophy and she asked why isn't this on display they said we had a lot of items in we can't display everything and this item will never be on display well it is on display right Patterson Air Force Base museum right now you go into the door on in the gift shop area if you look about a hundred and thirty or forty degrees to your right you can see it but it is on display it's finally on display fifty-five years in hiding yeah that's pretty impressive in and of itself so where were you stationed other than when you were a Top Gun between world war ii and korea okay let's see left locked born in the the weapons meet was May of 49 then in June of 49 they broke our group up and scatters all over the world the start of integration really although supposed to have been in 48 but it didn't happen until 49 when they broke our group up and Eddie Drummond he was in the 99th he and I were assigned to a near base in Misawa Japan but before we left our records our 201 file had been sent to the commander the Wing Commander Misawa and in there was our picture so he called halt upon its into the base theater and said we have these two Negro pilots coming in and they will be assigned to one of the squadrons well the pilots still assist in the cells they said no where are we gonna fly with him no way anyway any German and I report in to the wing commander we chitchat and this is a military organization now he said what do you want us to call you I said well I'm a first lieutenant any Germans a second lieutenant how about lieutenant Harvey and Drummond which is what it's supposed to be and he said okay but then he made a mistake he said we have three fighter squadrons on the base two p-51 squadrons and an F 80 squadron which one do you want to go to well he asked me I said f80 why stand still so he signed us both to the f80 squadron now they didn't have a t-33 over there that's a trainer for for the f80 but they did have an 86 that's what we flew in advance and the back seat they had a hood that you could pull up and you couldn't see out all he could see are your instruments now each got two rides in the backseat of an 86 okay so I get the bikes in the 86 I strap in the pilot up front he starts the engine gets clearance for takeoff taxis out lines up on the runway said okay you've got it so I'm in the back seat under the hood I apply the throttle down the runway takeoff pull up the gear flaps mixed to control prop pitch all that stuff that I'm supposed to do fly around during the maneuvers he wants me to do then I contact ground control approach and they affected me in for landing when I touch down the part of the front took over I had two fights like that what does that have to do with flying the f80 nothing I think they wanted to know or check to see if we could fly so he proved we could we knew that they didn't but anyway we proved we could fly again again top guy Karl Harvey let's take a quick break we'll come back with more of your story on Veterans Chronicles [Music] we're back out veterans Chronicles I'm Greg kurama's joined today by a retired US Air Force lieutenant colonel James Harvey the third and sir we talked about FA T's and I want to get your assessment now because you said you don't want to stand still you wanted to move forward because you have been flying non jets what was it like to get a jet compared to the previous planes no comparison in the p-47 that was the latest on prompt aircraft I flew the controls you push and pull and the f-18 no just a little pressure that's all it took no pushing and pulling it's a little pressure and to make it do what you wanted it to do and what a difference that was plus the speed of course and that's real flying that's real fine did it take any adjustment or a Jew what was that did it take much adjustment because you were so used to the non Jets no problem no problem easy easy transition remember I'm a Tuskegee Airmen yes sir no problem so where were you when the Korean War broke out I was in Japan and at Misawa Air Base which is up north however when it broke out we were at gunnery training down at Osaka so we moved from there to it uzuki which is the next Island down Air Base down there and started flying missions out of there and our first missions were flown over Seoul and we circled over so while they evacuated civilians out of Seoul this air covering attack any aircraft they came in to disrupt the operation but none came in so it was no problem now you made some history while you were there because he became the first black fighter pilot to fly a jet all right tell me about that okay well like I said before Eddie Drummond and I were from Hawk born we were both assigned to the same squadron he was a second lieutenant I was the first lieutenant I I managed to get off the ground before he did a couple fights before that made me the first one to fly in the Korean airspace so just by a few minutes you set the record right excellent and it was because you were had a slightly higher rank right I was the first lieutenant he was a second lieutenant did he rip you about that afterwards er no no no we didn't discuss it very good well October 16th 1950 you were involved in a mission for which you were later awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross okay tell us about that mission okay on that mission we were flying out of in uzuki Japan there was a bombing mission up in northern part of Korea so went up there we dropped our bombs on the target and we're headed back we had a full load of 50 caliber ammunition we got a call and some ground troops were pinned down by the enemy down this mountainous area in North in Korea so we made contact with the people on the ground in the target area and clouds around 800 feet down on the mountain and mountains so we managed to drop down below the clouds and navigate through the mountains and find the target they told us where it was and we found it and we there were four of us we had full auto at 50 caliber and we emptied our guns into the area where they said the enemy was and we left and went back to it is uki Japan a couple weeks later we got a message from the commander of that group and he said we killed 1,500 of the enemy so what we were very effective well see you have the muzzle velocity of the bullet plus the speed of the aircraft you can do a lot of damage with one bullet absolutely yeah absolutely any close calls in your missions in Korea that was that any close calls in Korea yes I had one was taking off on a bombing mission to 500-pound bombs taking off from in uzuki I mean yeah thank y'all from it uzuki and no Taegu taking off from Tegel we moved to tangu and where's that Korea that's a tiger town southern part I was I took off and pull up my gear and then I've got this vibration the whole airplane was just shaking and I called the tower and asked all my had to come back for landing because I was losing power and so I came back and I landed and what had happened there - there's a rotor blade that turns there's a stator blade and the stator blade is made just like the rotor blade with all these old fins about so long and they're shaped before they air to go through and help provide pressure anyway and the rotor blade when you lose a rotor blade it comes out the tail of the aircraft mine did not do that mine dropped down between the rotor and the stator and wiped out all my stator blades so therefore I did not have the thrust that I was supposed to get so I did manage to get it on the ground so that was my only close call in Japan how active was the enemy taken how active was the the enemy do they have fighter pilots that you engaged with on a regular basis or no we did not engage with any fighter aircraft I saw one we were strafing this town I pull up and I saw this yak which Yak was I don't know saw it heading north so I pull in behind it blow my trigger got off a few rounds nothing I lost I had expended all my ammunition in the town so I only got a few at the aircraft but I did notice some white stuff coming from the wing root of the aircraft where it joined the field that's what I as soon as I posted the fuel tank so how far north II God I don't know but that was it how many missions did she fly in Korea I flew 126 now when the war started we didn't have a cut-off and the foreign air force commander he was checking all the time the group commander although the Wing Commander was in constant contact with the Far Eastern air force commander wanting to know how many missions Apollo had to fly before he didn't have to fight any more missions and nothing was coming down finally on Christmas Day of 1950 he came down a hundred missions I had 126 at that point so I didn't have to fly anymore you had 126 missions in just a couple months yes I lived in that airplane oh my goodness so what happened then after you had reached the new threshold what do they do with you i L was sent back to Misawa Japan how was my home base went back there and stayed there until April of 40 let's say war started 43 44 you made 51 I'm sorry yes 51 51 and went back to my sour base stayed there until April 51 then I was sent to Victorville California George Air Force Base f-86 outfit I'm moving up now and Jets yeah always moving up right exactly okay okay I got to Victorville California and then f-86 is beautiful aircraft and we had f-86 a's and that's the first one they built and the f-86 has slats on the leading edge the slower your speed the more the slats come out but they were automatic and so I got to that outfit and I was assistant operations officer I was instrument instructor pilot and I was also a test pilot and that squadron to the f-86 impressive yes you like being the instructor I enjoyed it yeah it's good good assignment different airplane faster airplane fighter pilots like speed so the better the plane the more you like it ha the better and faster the plane the more you like to correct what happened after Victorville Victorville like I went to Norton Air Force Base it's flying Safety Officer for the 27th NORAD region we had a fighter squadron at Oxnard and won at Victorville I mean yeah think about and I was there in that job for a couple years and then I went to Newfoundland in 46 no 56 56 how long did you stay in the service where how long did you stay in the Air Force where when did you retire from the Air Force oh I'm a tired from the Air Force in May of 65 65 65 22 years so just before major combat operations wrapped up in Vietnam that could be yeah you had nothing to do it nothing no I was too close to retirement that's why I didn't get the Vietnam what did you do after you retired from the Air Force okay I was at Truax in Madison Wisconsin that's where I retired and I had a family I had four girls so I had to get a job so United you ran a POW an article in the paper they were hiring so I interviewed with United and I was told you have all the qualifications but we have an age cutoff okay 32 I said okay no problem and about oh maybe 15 years later I found out from a guy who was higher than 65 a Caucasian guy he said they didn't have a cutoff and the light went on they didn't want me anyway that's what are they very change but Madison Wisconsin at that time was the Home Office for Oscar Mayer and so I interviewed with Oscar Mayer while I was still in the service and they hired me to start off as a salesman anyway when I read and I said I retired the 31st of May they said ok report this week and I said I'd like a week off they said ok report the 7th of June so that's what I did and I reported the 7th of June and started my training at Oscar Mayer from slaughter through completion of all the products and I was supposed to learn everything about the whole operation so I could talk intelligently about the product so one month into the program at headquarters when either the salesmen in northeastern New Jersey so they sent me off I went with my family to Northeast and New Jersey got a job as a salesman there I was there for 3 years I went to Detroit Michigan as soon as I have to pardon me I draw blanks every now and then I can't bring it up but and it was a promotion and I there I worked with salesmen and I was there for 18 months I went to Philadelphia as an assistant sales manager at the plant in the Philadelphia I was there for three years and we score two marketing conferences all the center managers and in 71 November 71 to Disneyworld Disneyworld wasn't completely open but Polynesian village was that's where we had our marketing conference so the last day of the conference I was sitting in the dining hall and the president of Oscar Meyer came in said may I join you I was sitting by myself I said yes so he sat out he started talking and then he started talking about why I hadn't been promoted he said when the position opened then brought an Oregon for center manager we didn't send you because we had a guy in the western region who knew our operation well so that's why we put him there we had an opening in Salt Lake City we didn't put you there because the wood nor the way the Mormons thought about Negroes they didn't want to subject me to that stuff so I understood that he said where would you like to go I said I'd like to go to Denver but the center manager in Denver I know he does want to leave that was it in March of 74 no 75 no 72 I'm sorry Barnes to 72 I got a call go to Los Angeles to the plant and interview with the Western Region manager for a job in Denver so I went we had lunch at a rug local restaurant asked me a lot of questions my answer and that was it I went back to my my job in New Jersey as a district manager and then I got a call in April of 72 so you're going to Denver but that's how I ended up in Denver excellence yeah excellent I've noticed a couple of times now in our conversation both when you tried to enlist I wore two and they said no no and the same thing when do you want to be a pilot with the United right and be very easy to be bitter or frustrated about it and I'm sure you were frustrated on some level with it but your attitude as I listen to you is simply I it's not worth it to belabor it so you just moved on that's right talk about that a little bit that's not a common attitude but it's it's not it's very impressive everybody likes to complain but you have suffered some great discrimination but your attitude is amazing you know I hope I've always had a positive attitude don't dwell on the stuff that you have no control over let's move on just like that it's like that it's amazing the disc Iggy Airmen of course have now been recognized in a number of different ways for your tremendous service to our country in world war ii and elsewhere including the Congressional Gold Medal yes what does that recognition meant to you and to the Tuskegee Airmen in general well it's meant a lot to the Tuskegee Airmen in general and finally got a recognition when the group came back from overseas touched foot on these American soil classification of top-secret was placed on the Tuskegee Airmen they didn't want people to know about us because the program was too successful and it wasn't supposed to be that way and did you ever hear the Army War College report of 1925 I missed that one you missed that one yes you got a dig that one out it's a 68 report page report on the American Negro and the American the Negro soldier during World War one it's a 68 page report on garbage and I've read it and I don't want it in my psyche and I give talks and I quote parts of it and the parts I quote I read because I don't want to internalize that stuff and you may say well if you read it you're gonna get it in your psyche I say no because I belong to a a certain group of seniors we read something you know we finish reading we don't remember what we read so therefore it's not internalized what are you most proud of from your incredible service to our country well being a Tuskegee Airmen and winning the first ever Top Gun weapons made that's it that's it wasn't supposed to happen what do you think the legacy is of the Tuskegee Airmen I think positive never quit a my all the positive stuff it's an amazing career and yes it was and it's been a pleasure to talk to you today sir thank you for being here and thank you for your service to our nation thank you thank you retired US Air Force lieutenant colonel James Harvey the third veteran of world war ii and korea i'm greg kurama's this is Veterans Chronicles you

Channel: American Veterans Center

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Keywords: AVC, American Veterans Center, veteran, veterans, history, army, navy, air force, marines, coast guard, military, navy seal, world war ii, wwii, korean war, top gun, tuskegee airmen, tuskegee, ace pilot, hero, tuskegee airmen facts

Id: VqA1ihi_0MU

Length: 37min 22sec (2242 seconds)

Published: Tue May 19 2020