JACKSON RIGHT NOW. >>> I'M HALLIE JACKSON WITH BREAKING NEWS, SPECIAL REPORT, DONALD TRUMP ON TRIAL WITH MAYBE JUST TWO DAYS LEFT TILL THE JURY GETS THIS CASE. CLOSING ARGUMENTS COULD BEGIN AS SOON AS TUESDAY AFTER A PRETTY TESTY DAY IN COURT, RAISED VOICES, INTENSE QUESTIONS AND ONE THING THE 12 JURORS WILL HAVE TO CONSIDER. DO YOU BELIEVE MICHAEL COHEN? THAT'S THE QUESTION THIS WHOLE CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE STAR WITNESS, REALLY THIS WHOLE TRIAL WITH THE DEFENSE NEEDING TO CONVINCE ONLY ONE JUROR THE FORMER RIGHT HAND MAN OF DONALD TRUMP LIED. THE JUDGE IS SAYING LET'S GET READY TO WRAP IT UP. AT ONE POINT TODD BLANCHE, THE FORMER PRESIDENT'S LEAD DEFENSE ATTORNEY SHOUTING THAT WAS A LIE WHEN TALKING ABOUT A PHONE CALL TO MR. TRUMP'S BODYGUARD. THIS WAS A KEY MOMENT. COHEN STOOD BY HIS STORY SAYING HE TALKED TO MR. TRUMP ON THE PHONE ABOUT STORMY DANIELS ON THE CALL AND NOT JUST ABOUT PRANK CALLS FROM A TEENAGER. THAT CALL AND CALLS LIKE IT ARE KEY BECAUSE COHEN IS THE ONLY PERSON WHO CAN DIRECTLY IMPLICATE MR. TRUMP IN THIS ALLEGED SCHEME. HE'S THE GUY WHO CAN CONNECT THE DOTS BACK TO THAT SO-CALLED HUSH MONEY PAYMENT, THAT $130,000 TO STORMY DANIELS FOR HER SILENCE ABOUT AN AFFAIR THE FORMER PRESIDENT DENIED. THIS IS THE CENTERPIECE OF WHAT PROSECUTORS DESCRIBED AS THIS ELECTION INTERFERENCE SCHEME. MOST OF THE DAY WAS HITTING AT COHEN'S CREDIBILITY, PAINTING HIM LIKE SOMEONE OUT FOR REVENGE. ASKED IF HE WAS ANGLING FOR A JOB, HE SAID THAT WAS FOR MY EGO, YES. WHEN ASKED IF THE OUTCOME OF THE TRIAL AFFECTS HIM PERSONALLY AND COHEN SAYING YES. ALL OF IT PLAYING OUT BEFORE A DOZEN ALLIES OF MR. TRUMP WHO SHOWED UP IN PERSON. THE LINE OUTSIDE COURT STRETCHES ALL THE WAY BACK. THE PERSON AT THE FRONT OF THE LINE PAID 1,800 BUCKS TO START SITTING THERE TUESDAY NIGHT TO GET A SEAT INSIDE. NEW YORK'S HOTTEST CLUB IS A DOWNTOWN MANHATTAN COURTROOM. FIRST WE'LL GO INSIDE THE ROOMS CAMERAS CANNOT BE IN FOR EVERY KEY ELEMENT WHAT IT MEANS, WHY IT MATTERS AND WHAT IS COMING NEXT. OUR TEAM OF REPORTERS ARE READY TO BREAK IT DOWN. WE START WITH REHEMA ELLIS LIVE FOR US OUTSIDE COURT. WE COULD BE BARRELING TOWARDS THE FINISH, BUT ONE OF OUR COLLEAGUES TOM WINTERS HEARS THERE'S A POTENTIAL DEFENSE WITNESS WHO SAYS HE'LL BE AROUND NEXT WEEK IF THEY NEED HIM, RIGHT >> Reporter: THIS PERSON'S NAME IS ROBERT COSTELLO, A LAWYER, ALSO. ACCORDING TO MICHAEL COHEN'S TESTIMONY, HE WAS RELAYING MESSAGES VIA RUDY GIULIANI FROM TRUMP TO RUDY GIULIANI TO COSTELLO TO COHEN ABOUT DON'T WORRY AND THIS WAS AFTER MICHAEL COHEN'S APARTMENT WAS RAIDED BY THE FBI IN 2018. THEY TOOK HIS PHONES AND MATERIAL FROM HIS OFFICE. THE MESSAGE THAT COHEN IS SAYING HE GOT FROM COSTELLO, SLEEP WELL TONIGHT. YOU HAVE FRIENDS IN HIGH PLACES. COHEN SAID HE GOT MESSAGES VIA COSTELLO, VIA RUDY GIULIANI COMING FROM TRUMP TO SAY STAY IN THE FOLD. DON'T FLIP. DON'T SPEAK. MIGHT HE BE CALLED AS A DEFENSE WITNESS TO DO WHAT? TO SAY MICHAEL COHEN IS A LIAR, SOMETHING THEY'VE SAID ALL DAY THAT THEY'VE BEEN TRYING TO GET MICHAEL COHEN TO BASICALLY REBUT HIS OWN STATEMENTS THAT HE IS ESSENTIALLY A SERIAL LIAR. COULD THIS BEING ONE MORE TIME HE'S LYING? WE DON'T KNOW YET WHETHER OR NOT ROBERT COSTELLO WILL BE CALLED, BUT THE DEFENSE IS SEEMINGLY LEAVING THAT DOOR OPEN FOR THE POSSIBILITY HE WOULD BE CALLED. THE DEFENSE IS ALSO LEAVING THE DOOR OPEN THERE'S A POSSIBILITY THE FORMER PRESIDENT, DONALD TRUMP, MIGHT ALSO BE CALLED. >> TALK A BIT MORE ABOUT THIS CRITICAL PHONE CALL THAT WAS THE DISTRIBUTION OF WHAT HAPPENED RIGHT BEFORE THE LUNCH BREAK AND THINGS STARTED TO GET A LITTLE EXPLOSIVE, ONE OF THE RARE TIMES WE'VE HEARD TODD BLANCHE RAISE HIS VOICE SEEMINGLY TO TRY TO SIGNAL TO THE JURY VOCALLY THIS IS SOMETHING IMPORTANT, LIKE THIS IS AN IMPORTANT MOMENT HERE, I KEEP PRESSING MICHAEL COHEN ABOUT THIS CALL WHETHER IT'S DISCUSSION OF PRANK CALLS FROM A 14-YEAR-OLD OR WHETHER IT WAS ABOUT STORMY DANIELS. >> Reporter: THE DEFENSE SEEMS TO BE RESTING ON THE NOTION DONALD TRUMP DIDN'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THIS AND PLED NOT GUILTY TO ALL 34 COUNTS ABOUT FALSIFYING RECORDS. FROM BLANCHE, DO YOU AGREE WITH ME WHEN YOU PLED GUILTY OF A CRIME AND YOU ARE LYING, THAT'S NOT ACCEPTING RESPONSIBILITY FOR IT AND MICHAEL COHEN SAYING, I ACCEPTED RESPONSIBILITY AND I'M SUFFERING THE CONSEQUENCES OF IT. AGAIN, THEY'RE TRYING TO GET MICHAEL COHEN BASICALLY THEIR DEFENSE IS THAT HE WAS DOING THIS TO PLEASE THE BOSS SO HE COULD BE IN GOOD FAVOR WITH THE BOSS AND ACTING ON HIS OWN, NOT NECESSARILY ON THE ORDERS FROM DONALD TRUMP. >> NOW DANNY CEVALLOS AND DEBBIE HINES, WATCHING THIS CROSS-EXAMINATION GO DOWN TODAY WOULD YOU BE SWEATING IT OUT THE JURY HAS THREE DAYS TO LET IT MARINATE WHAT THEY'VE ALL HEARD, THE REPEATED INSTANCES OF MICHAEL COHEN LYING? >> NOT REALLY. THIS JURY HAS BEEN SITTING ON THIS TRIAL AND HAVE OTHER THINGS TO DO ON THE WEEKEND. THEY HAVE THEIR OWN REAL LIVES. YES, THEY'LL THINK ABOUT IT, BUT I DON'T THINK THEY'LL MARINATE OVER IT. IT WOULD BE DIFFERENT IF THIS WERE CLOSING ARGUMENTS AND YOU SEND THEM OUT FOR THE WEEKEND, BUT I DON'T THINK SO FOR CROSS EXAMINATION. >> I'LL COME BACK TO THAT IN A SECOND BECAUSE THAT MAY BE THE REALITY, BUT, DANNY, YOU TALKED ABOUT HOW THE GOAL OF CROSS- EXAMINATION IS NOT ABOUT BREAKING PEOPLE DOWN. IT'S ABOUT GETTING CONCESSIONS. DID TODD BLANCHE GET ENOUGH OF THOSE TO PUT SOME OF THOSE WORMS OF DOUBT INTO THE MINDS OF THE JURY? >> HE DID, BUT HE MIGHT HAVE BEEN ABLE TO DO IT IN A MORE EFFICIENT WAY. THERE WERE A COUPLE MOMENTS TODAY THAT WERE GOOD FOR THE DEFENSE, BUT THERE WERE A LOT OF MOMENTS THAT FELT KIND OF PLODDING. THE CHALLENGE FOR THE CROSS- EXAMINER AND I FALL VICTIM TO THIS, TOO, WHEN YOU HAVE SO MUCH MATERIAL, IT'S HARD TO ORGANIZE IT AND IT'S HARD TO KNOW WHEN ENOUGH IS ENOUGH. AS A CROSS-EXAMINING ATTORNEY, YOU WANT TO EXPOSE EVERY LIE THIS PERSON EVER TOLD BECAUSE TO YOU IT'S RELEVANT AND THE JURY MIGHT THINK IT'S RELEVANT, BUT IT'S REALLY HARD TO EDIT. SOMETIMES YOU HAVE TO SAY I MIGHT BE ABLE TO GET HIM ON THIS ISSUE, BUT I'LL LEAVE IT OUT OR WHEN TODD BLANCHE WOULD HAVE MICHAEL COHEN ON THE HOOK AND COHEN FOUGHT BACK ON ADMITTING SOMETHING WAS TRUE OR NOT, SOMETIMES IT'S TIME TO MOVE ON. OTHER TIMES IT'S TIMES TO HAMMER DOWN ON AN ISSUE. IT'S REALLY HARD TO KNOW. YOU DON'T WANT TO LEAVE ANYTHING OUT THERE. I TEND TO KEEP GOING AND PUSHING THE ISSUE MAYBE BEYOND WHEN I SHOULD HAVE. >> AS A NEWS ANCHOR, I CAN SOMETIMES RELATE TO NOT STOPPING TALKING WHEN PERHAPS MAYBE I SHOULD. DEBBIE, THE PROSECUTION IS GOING TO GET A CHANCE TO DO A REDIRECT, TO TRY TO RESET A BIT OF THE NARRATIVE THAT TODD BLANCHE JUST TRIED TO LAY OUT OVER THE LAST TWO DAYS WITH MICHAEL COHEN. WHAT DO THEY NEED TO DO? WHAT'S THEIR GOAL? >> I THINK THEIR ONLY GOAL IS TO FOCUS ON THE IMPORTANT THINGS AND TODD BLANCHE WENT THROUGH A DAY AND A HALF OVER LIES. HOW MANY WAYS CAN YOU SPELL LIAR? >> THAT PHONE CALL DISCUSSION SEEMED TO BE FAIRLY DAMNING. >> THE PHONE CALL IS WHERE I THINK THEY WILL HAMMER IN BUT NOT ALL THE PREVIOUS YOU TOLD THIS OR YOU SAID THAT AND DEFINITELY I DON'T THINK EVEN ON THE RECORDINGS, EVEN THOUGH YES, IT'S UNETHICAL TO RECORD YOUR OWN CLIENT, BUT I THINK THAT PHONE CALL WAS. MY EARS PERKED UP WHEN I HEARD THAT. I THINK THEY HAVE TO BASICALLY BUILD COHEN UP AGAIN SO THAT THE JURY IS NOT LEFT WITH THE IMPRESSION THAT DID HE TALK TO DONALD TRUMP OR DID HE TALK TO THE BODYGUARD? HE WAS CALLING THE BODYGUARD'S PHONE NUMBER. WHY DO WE KNOW HE WAS TALKING TO DONALD TRUMP AND NOT THE BODYGUARD? THEY HAVE TO BUILD THAT BACK UP BECAUSE THAT'S A KEY ELEMENT OF THEIR CASE. >> DANNY, THIS IS A BIT OF TEA LEAF SPECULATION, BUT BASED ON WHAT YOU HEARD TODAY FROM THE NOTES INSIDE THAT THE DEFENSE DID AN EFFECTIVE JOB RAISING QUESTIONS ABOUT COHEN'S TESTIMONY TODAY? >> THEY DID, BUT IN MANY WAYS A LOT OF THE STUFF THEY HIT ON WERE THINGS THEY KNEW THEY WERE. WE KNEW THAT COHEN WAS A LIAR AND HAS A CHECKERED PAST AND WE KNEW COHEN HAS A MOTIVE, REVENGE. THAT WAS GOING TO COME OUT, BUT AT TIMES THE CROSS-EXAMINATION PROBABLY WASN'T AS TIGHT AS IT COULD HAVE BEEN AND WHEN YOU LEAVE A HOSTILE WITNESS ON THE STAND LONGER THAN YOU SHOULD AND ASK THAT ONE ADDITIONAL QUESTION, YOU REALLY RUN THE RISK THAT WITNESS WILL ZING YOU BECAUSE REMEMBER, THAT'S WHAT MICHAEL COHEN IS TRYING TO DO WITH EVERY SINGLE QUESTION. >> WHAT SHOULD THE DEFENSE DO NEXT, DANNY? SHOULD THEY CALL ANOTHER WITNESS LIKE BOB COSTELLO? DO YOU BELIEVE WE ARE HEADED TOWARDS CLOSING MAYBE AS SOON AS MONDAY, FOR SURE IT SOUNDS LIKE TUESDAY BASED ON THE JUDGE? >> I TEND TO BE VERY RISK AVERSE. I MIGHT NOT CALL ANY WITNESSES AT ALL, ESPECIALLY AT MOST IF I WAS ONLY THINKING OF CALLING ONE WITNESS. I WOULD RATHER REST UNLESS I REALLY NEEDED SOMETHING OUT OF ROBERT COSTELLO OR SOME OTHER WITNESS. I WOULD TEND TO LEAN TOWARDS RESTING AND ARGUING WE DIDN'T CALL ANY WITNESSES BECAUSE WE DON'T HAVE THE BURDEN AND THEY HAVE THE BURDEN AND DIDN'T MEET IT. THEY HAVEN'T PROVEN THEIR CASE. >> DEBBIE, THIS GETS BACK TO SOMETHING WE TALKED ABOUT. IT IS ENTIRELY POSSIBLE THAT THE JURY GETS THIS CASE, COURT IS NOT SCHEDULED TO BE IN SESSION WEDNESDAY AND IN THE MIDST OF DELIBERATIONS THEY TAKE THIS PERHAPS POSSIBLY BREAK KIND OF IN THE MIDDLE OF THE WEEK. IS THAT DAMAGING TO EITHER SIDE OR SIMPLY THE REALITY WHEN THERE ARE SUCH THINGS AS WEEKEND AND FEDERAL HOLIDAYS? >> THAT IS THE ONE THING THAT CONCERNS ME FOR BOTH SIDES, MORE SO FOR THE PROSECUTION, BECAUSE I DON'T RECALL HAVING A SITUATION WHERE ONCE WE GOT TO CLOSING ARGUMENTS THAT IT WAS KIND OF CHOPPED UP. I THINK THAT'S VERY PROBLEMATIC. MOST CASES RUN VERY SMOOTHLY. YOU START WITH CLOSING, DO THE PROSECUTOR, THE DEFENSE. PROSECUTION GOES REBUTTAL AND BECAUSE THIS IS NEW YORK, THEN THE JURY INSTRUCTIONS AND THEN THEY GO OUT TO DELIBERATE. I JUST SEE THAT AS POTENTIALLY BREAKING UP. USUALLY THAT DOES NOT HAPPEN AND IN A CASE THIS IMPORTANT IT SHOULD NOT OCCUR. >> THANK YOU SO MUCH, GLAD TO HAVE YOU BOTH WITH US. WANT TO BRING IN SOMEBODY ELSE WHO IS IN SOME WAYS A LEGAL ANALYST, MR. TRUMP'S FORMER ATTORNEY, OF WITH THEM VANDER VEEN. DO YOU THINK THE DEFENSE SHOULD WRAP IT UP HERE? >> I THINK IT DEPENDS A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHAT HAPPENS WITH THE REDIRECT. THEY'LL REDIRECT. THERE WILL BE PROBABLY LIMITED CROSS TO THAT REDIRECT AND IT DEPENDS UPON WHAT THE JUDGE'S RULING IS WITH RESPECT TO THE EXPERT THEY WANT TO CALL. PRETRIAL MOTIONS IN THE CASE, THEY HAD BEEN SAYING THEY WANTED TO CALL AN EXPERT IN ELECTION FINANCE LAW. IT WAS REALLY TAILORED VERY NARROWLY BY THE JUDGE AND HIS RULINGS AS TO WHAT THIS WITNESS COULD SAY. THEY'D LIKE TO GET THAT WITNESS IN AND KIND OF OPEN THE BARN DOOR ON WHAT HE CAN SAY. AS AN ELECTION FINANCE EXPERT, IT'S KIND OF WISHY WASHY. WELL, UNDER THIS CIRCUMSTANCE IT COULD BE. MAYBE UNDER THIS CIRCUMSTANCE IT'S NOT ILLEGAL. IT WOULD BE A STRONG WITNESS FOR THEM. YOU WANT TO PUT EVERYTHING IN. ONCE THE GAME'S OVER, YOU'RE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO PLAY AGAIN. I THINK THEY'VE HAD A VERY STRATEGIC WELL THOUGHT OUT DEFENSE AND I THINK THEY'LL BE BEST OFF JUST TO STICK TO IT. >> WHAT ABOUT THE FORMER PRESIDENT HIMSELF? YOU OF ALL PEOPLE KNOW HE LIKES HIS PEOPLE TO BEING AGGRESSIVE ON HIS BEHALF. HAS BLANCHE PASSED THAT TEST? >> I THINK SO. YOU CAN TEND BECAUSE WHEN HE CAME OUT OF COURT, HE THANKED HIS LAWYERS. THAT MEANS HE'S REAL HAPPY WITH THEM AND HE EVEN TALKED ABOUT PAYING THEM AND REALLY NOT REGRETTING IT SO MUCH. I THINK HE'S REALLY HAPPY. >> HE DID SAY HE'D PREFER TO PAY THEM NOT QUITE SO MUCH MONEY. >> THAT'S NOT JUST HIM. I THINK THEY HAD A STRONG DAY. IN THE ROOM THEY FELT THEY HAD THE DAY. WHEN YOU SAW TODD BLANCHE COME OUT AFTERWARDS, HE WAS LIGHT, BOUNCING AROUND, LAUGHING, SMILING. HE FELT GOOD ABOUT IT FROM WHAT I WAS READING ON THE SCREEN TODAY. IT SEEMED LIKE HE HAD A REALLY GOOD RHYTHM. THERE WEREN'T A LOT OF OBJECTIONS INTERRUPTING HIM AND CROSS IS VERY MUCH RHYTHMIC, LIKE MUSIC TO A CERTAIN EXTENT. >> THE JURY HASN'T BEEN FOLLOWING THIS FOR EIGHT YEARS. >> I'VE FOLLOWED A LOT OF CROSS- EXAMINATIONS. SOMETIMES IT GETS ROUGH BECAUSE YOU'RE REACTING TO WHAT THE ANSWERS ARE. IN YOUR CROSS THERE THREE WAYS YOU CAN GO AT LEAST AND IT REALLY DEPENDS UPON WHAT'S HAPPENING IN THAT INTERACTION. NO, I REALLY THOUGHT IT WAS A PRETTY SMOOTH CROSS-EXAMINATION AND IT'S REALLY TOUGH TO SECOND GUESS THE GUY WHO IS ASKING THE QUESTIONS. >> ONE OF THE THINGS HE'S DOING IS LEAVING THE DOOR OPEN POTENTIALLY TO THE POSSIBILITY OF MAYBE -- I'M USING A LOT OF CAVEAT WORDS -- MAYBE HAVING MR. TRUMP TESTIFY. THE VIBE WE'RE GETTING IS THAT IT'S VERY UNLIKELY TO HAPPEN. IF YOU WERE IN THAT POSITION WITH ALL THE RISKS IT WOULD ENTAIL TO PUT DONALD TRUMP ON THE STAND, WOULD YOU DO IT, WOULD YOU NOT? >> FIRST I DON'T THINK IT'S SO UNLIKELY THAT HE TESTIFIES, FRANKLY. >> SUBJECT HIMSELF TO CROSS- EXAMINATION FROM THE PROSECUTION? >> I THINK HIS LAWYERS ARE SAYING I THINK WE GOT DAYLIGHT AND THIS COULD BE A NOT GUILTY, BUT HE'S GNAWING AT THE BIT TO TESTIFY, ANOTHER PLACE FOR HIM TO BE AT THE PODIUM AND GIVING ELECTION TALK. >> NOBODY'S INTERRUPTING HIM OR PUSHING BACK. >> HE'S BEEN A RISK TAKER HIS ENTIRE LIFE. I THINK HE WANTS THE OPPORTUNITY TO DEFEND HIMSELF. I THINK HE KNOWS HE WON'T HAVE THAT CHANCE AGAIN. HE TESTIFIED IN THE CIVIL TRIAL, OF COURSE, AND I KNOW HE WOULD LIKE TO IF HE COULD. >> THIS IS NOW, IF MY MATH IS CORRECT, THIRD DAY IN A ROW THIS WEEK HE'S HAD REPUBLICAN ALLIES IN COURT WITH HIM. WHAT DO YOU THINK IT DOES FOR HIM TO HAVE THOSE FOLKS SITING BEHIND HIM? >> I THINK IT MAKES HIM FEEL GREAT. IT JUSTIFIES TO HIM THAT IT'S HIS DEFENSE. IT JUSTIFIES TO HIM THIS IS IN HIS WORDS A SHAM PROSECUTION. I THINK IT MAKES HIM FEEL MUCH MORE COMFORTABLE ALL THROUGHOUT THE DAY THAT HE'S GOT SUPPORTERS THERE. THAT'S NOT JUST HIM. THAT'S ANY DEFENDANT. WHEN YOU TRY CASES AND YOU'RE SITTING THERE WITH JUST THE LAWYERS, IT'S GOOD TO LOOK BACK AND SEE YOUR FAMILY OR FRIENDS THERE OR SUPPORTERS THERE. I THINK IT'S BEEN VERY HELPFUL FOR HIM PROBABLY. WHAT THE PUBLIC PERCEPTION OR THE JURY'S PERCEPTION MORE IMPORTANTLY, THAT I DON'T KNOW BECAUSE I SAW SOME CARDS GOING IN THERE, BUT WE'LL SEE. >> MICHAEL VANDER VEEN, THANK YOU VERY MUCH. >>> I WANT TO BRING IN POLITICAL EXPERTS AND REPORTERS WHO KNOW THIS CASE AND DEFENDANT VERY WELL, "NEW YORK TIMES" INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER SUZANNE CRAIG AND VANITY FAIR SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT RYAN STELTER IS WITH US. THIS WAS THE TOUGHEST QUESTION TO MICHAEL COHEN'S FACE. WE'VE SEEN SOME OF THE FIERY MOMENTS, RAISED VOICES. WHAT WAS COHEN'S DEMEANOR LIKE? HOW DID YOU READ IT? >> I WAS JUST LISTENING TO MICHAEL ABOUT IT BEING A GOOD DAY AND I'D LIKE TO STEP BACK AND TAKE PEOPLE INTO THE COURTROOM AND WHY I THINK THEY DID LAND A PUNCH. MICHAEL COHEN WAS COOL AND CALM. ON A TAPE FROM ONE OF HIS PODCASTS HE WAS RAILING AGAINST DONALD TRUMP, BUT THE REST OF IT ON THE STAND JURORS SAW A COMPOSED MICHAEL COHEN. TODAY IT STARTED THE MORNING SESSION AND FOR HOURS AND WENT ON THE PREVIOUS DAY AS WELL, THE LAST DAY OF TESTIMONY, VERY MUCH TRYING TO IMPEACH MICHAEL COHEN'S CHARACTER. YOU'VE SEEN TIME AND TIME AGAIN THEY KEEP BRINGING UP THAT HE HAS LIED AND IT'S NOT MINOR LIES. IT'S LIES UNDER OATH. THE SUGGESTION IS HE'S LIED UNDER OATH BEFORE AND NOW HE'S UNDER OATH AND WILL LIE AGAIN. IT WAS MEANDERING AT TIMES, BUT THEN WE GOT TO A PHONE CALL TO DONALD TRUMP'S BODY MAN AND IT WAS IMPORTANT BECAUSE THAT WAS THE CALL WHERE MICHAEL COHEN HAD ALLEGEDLY KEITH SCHILLER AND HANDED THE PHONE TO DONALD TRUMP DURING THIS CALL AND TOLD HIM THE PAYMENT TO STORMY DANIELS HAD BEEN MADE. WHAT WE LEARNED TODAY WAS PLANTING IN THE JURORS' MINDS MAYBE THAT CALL WASN'T ABOUT STORMY DANIELS. MAYBE IT WAS ABOUT THIS PRANK CALL HE WAS GETTING, THESE HANGUP CALLS WHERE HE'D ALLEGEDLY UNMASKED THE PERSON. IT WAS A 14-YEAR-OLD KID. MICHAEL THREATENED TO REPORT THIS TO THE SECRET SERVICE AND THEN CALLED KEITH SCHILLER. I THOUGHT IT WAS AN EFFECTIVE CROSS. IT PUT A DENT IN THEM. I THINK IT RAISED QUESTIONS ABOUT THE NATURE OF THE CALL. I WANT TO SAY IT'S ONE CALL IN A PRETTY THICK STACK OF EVIDENCE THAT DONALD TRUMP'S LAWYERS HAVEN'T GONE NEAR. THEY HAVE STAYED AT HIS CHARACTER. THEY HAVE GONE TO ALL THE TESTIMONY, NOT JUST MICHAEL COHEN, BUT OTHER WITNESSES HAVE BACKED MICHAEL COHEN UP ON MEETINGS AND RECORDS. I THINK DONALD TRUMP'S LAWYERS WERE HAPPY TODAY, BUT I WONDER IN THE BIG PICTURE HOW MUCH IT AFFECTS WHAT THE JURY IS THINKING. >> PETER, YOU HEARD WHAT MICHAEL VANDER VEEN HAD TO SAY, THIS IDEA THAT HE HAD HIS REPUBLICAN SURROGATES BEHIND HIM, DONALD TRUMP'S WORD, WHAT HE'S CALLED THEM. 12 REPUBLICANS, SOME OF THE MOST CONSERVATIVE IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, UNLIKE SOME OF THE FOLKS WE SAW EARLIER IN THE WEEK. THIS DIDN'T FEEL VEEP-STAKEY. THIS FELT LIKE A REPUBLICAN ROLL CALL. HOW DO YOU SEE IT? >> IT TOOK A WHILE TILL YOU GOT THEM COMFORTABLE WITH THE IDEA THEY SHOULD SHOW UP IN A COURTROOM. NOW THEY HAVE. THEY DECIDED THEY COULD DO IT WITHOUT JUMPING OFF THE DEEP END OF THE POOL AND WORRY ABOUT HITTING THEIR HEAD. IT COULD BE GOOD FOR THEM. THEY'LL CURRY FAVOR WITH THE GUY WHO IS THE FUTURE NOMINEE OF THEIR PARTY AND HE'LL REMEMBER IT. HE SPECIFICALLY REMEMBERS, FOR INSTANCE, WHEN MARK MEADOWS' WIFE CONTINUED TO CAMPAIGN FOR HIM AFTER THE "ACCESS HOLLYWOOD" TAPE HE BROUGHT UP ALL THE TIME. IT WAS KEY TO MARK MEADOWS' RELATIONSHIP WITH THE PRESIDENT FOR A LONG TIME. HE KEEPS TRACK. >> YOU MADE AN INTERESTING POINT, BRIAN. SENATOR JOHN FETTERMAN CALLS IT THE HUNGER GAMES UP THERE IN MANHATTAN. TRY TO IMAGINE IF DEMOCRATIC LAWMAKERS SHOWED UP FOR THE TRIAL OF MENENDEZ RIGHT NOW. >> IT'S HARD TO IMAGINE ANYONE WOULD COME TO THE DEFENSE OF THOSE MEN. THAT SPEAKS BETWEEN THE DIFFERENCE IN THE PARTIES NOW. THINK ABOUT THIS AS ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF NORMS ERODING IN THE TRUMP ERA. THERE HAD BEEN MOSTLY AN UNSPOKEN RULE LAWMAKERS STAY OUT OF THE COURT SYSTEM, THE JUDICIARY. THAT HACK THE STANDARD MOST OF THE DAYS IN WASHINGTON AND WE'RE SEEING THAT NORM COMPLETELY BLOW UP DURING THIS TRUMP TRIAL. AS YOU SAID PETER, NOT ON DAY ONE. IT TOOK DAY 17 OF THE TRIAL BEFORE THESE LAWMAKERS FELT COMFORTABLE TO BE SEEN. >> NOT THE FIRST NORM THAT THE FORMER PRESIDENT HAS BROKEN IN HIS LIFETIME. WON'T BE THE LAST, I DOUBT IT. THERE'S A NEW POLL OUT TODAY. THE CAMPAIGN AND LEGAL DRAMA IS ALL ONE AND THE SAME, A COLLISION COURSE. THIS IS SHOWING IT IN THE MOST VIVID WAYS. IT SHOWS FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP AND PRESIDENT BIDEN NECK AND NECK INSIDE THE MARGIN OF ERROR. DOES THAT SOUND FAMILIAR? THERE'S STILL THE OPEN QUESTION OF DOES THIS PARTICULAR CASE SHAKE ANYTHING LOOSE IN THE MINDS OF VOTERS AS WE ARE GETTING CLOSER AT LEAST TOWARDS MAYBE THE FIRST DEBATE AND THE REPUBLICAN CONVENTION? >> I'M THE WORST PERSON TO ASK THIS. I JUST HATE POLLS. >> YOU'RE WELCOME TO VETO IT. VETO THE PRESIDENT AND I'LL GIVE IT TO YOUR COLLEAGUE PETER. >> I'D LIKE TO HEAR PETER'S TAKE. IT HAS BEEN INTERESTING, THOUGH, JUST SEEING THE COLLISION OF THE LAW AND POLITICS, THE IDEA THEY LANDED A POLITICALLY VICTORY TODAY. IN COURT I THOUGHT MORE SO THAT THAN ONE IN COURT. I THOUGHT IT WAS AN IMPORTANT DAY, BUT THERE'S SO MUCH OTHER EVIDENCE THAT'S NOT BEEN ADDRESSED AND I KEEP THINKING IF DONALD TRUMP WOULD TESTIFY. IF HE DOES, IT IS A POLITICAL MOVE, PURE AND SIMPLE. THERE WOULD BE NO REASON FOR HIM TO GET ON THE STAND. I CAN'T SEE ANY UP SIDE, BUT THERE'S A POLITICAL UP SIDE. THE GAG ORDER IS ANOTHER ISSUE. HE CAN'T TALK. SO HE'S GOT HIS SURROGATES COMING TO COURT. POLITICS IS AT PLAY EVERY DAY IN THE MIDDLE OF A COURTROOM. I'M A REPORTER WHO SHOWS UP TO COVER COURT CASES AND I'M FASCINATED TO SEE THE POLITICS INFUSED WITH IT. >> PETER, YOU'RE THE FLIP SIDE OF THAT COIN, A POLITICAL REPORTER SHOWING UP NOW TO DO THE COURT CASE EVENT. >> THIS IS, IN FACT, A POLITICAL EVENT WHETHER IT'S INTENDED TO BE THAT OR NOT. OBVIOUSLY IT'S NOT. FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP SAID IT IS ORDERED BY BIDEN, OBVIOUSLY NOT TRUE, NO EVIDENCE OF THAT WHATSOEVER, BUT IT HAS SUCH A BEARING ON OUR POLITICS BECAUSE IT'S HAPPENING IN THE MIDDLE OF THE CAMPAIGN. WHY DO TRUMP AND BIDEN AGREE TO A DEBATE ON JUNE 27th? FOR TRUMP, HE MAY BE A CONVICTED FELON BY THAT AND, IF SO, HE WOULD LIKE TO CHANGE THE SUBJECT. HE MAY NOT BE A CONVICTED FELON BY THEN. WE DON'T KNOW WHAT THE ANSWER IS. I THINK FOR POLITICS SAKE, THAT'S WHAT STILL MATTERS. BY THE TIME VOTERS VOTE THEY WILL KNOW. THEY WILL NOT BE FOCUSING ON MICHAEL COHEN'S TESTIMONY. THEY'LL SAY EITHER HE'S A FELON OR GOTTEN OFF WITH A HUNG JURY OR ACQUITTAL. >> DID THIS PERIOD OF A TRIAL ACTUALLY HELP DONALD TRUMP IN THE FOLLOWING WAY? THE COVERAGE IS ALL ABOUT WHETHER HE'S THE VICTIM OF A PERSECUTION, WHETHER THE PROSECUTION IS FAIR OR NOT ESPECIALLY IN PRO TRUMP MEDIA. THAT'S THE STORY LINE EVERY SINGLE DAY. EVEN HEARING ABOUT THE TRIAL, IT'S THIS SENSE ALL ABOUT TRUMP, NOT ABOUT HIS POLICIES OR IDEAS FOR 2025, NOT ABOUT HIS AGENDA OR ABORTION. THE FOCUS IS SO MUCH ON THESE LEGAL -- >> IT WAS ABOUT ABORTION A FEW WEEKS BACK. >> BUT OVERALL THIS NARRATIVE MAY BE HELPING TRUMP, NOT WHAT HE'S SAYING IN HIS RALLIES AND DRIFTING OFF TALKING ABOUT HANNIBAL LECTER, WE'RE FOCUSED SO MUCH ON THE LEGAL SUBSTANCE AND FOR GOOD SEASON, BUT MAYBE NEXT YEAR THEY'LL SAY MAYBE TRUMP BENEFITED FROM THIS. >> THIS IDEA SOME OF THE THINGS DONALD TRUMP TOUCHES BECOMES A SPECTACLE. YOU COVERED THE WHITE HOUSE IN 2017 AND ON. THAT WAS A COMPARISON THAT HAPPENED A LOT, THAT THINGS WOULD TURN INTO SPECTACLE LAND AND LOOK AT THE CROWDS OF PEOPLE LINING UP TO GET A SEAT INSIDE COURT. $1,800 IS NOT NOTHING TO PAY TO GET A GOOD SEAT IN THE LINE TO GUARANTEE A SPOT IN COURT. THAT IS PART OF IT. YOU HAVE TO WONDER HOW MUCH MR. TRUMP WANTS TO SEE THAT? I THINK HE DOES. >> IT'S ALL ABOUT SPECTACLE. THAT'S WHAT HIS WHOLE POLITICAL CAREER HAS BEEN ABOUT BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT HIS BUSINESS CAREER IS ABOUT. IT'S HOW HE GOT WHERE HE IS. IT'S HIS SPECIALTY. >> IT TURNS ON SOME PEOPLE, TURNS ON OF A LOT OF OTHERS. I STILL THINK POLITICAL BURNOUT, EXHAUSTION, FATIGUE IS THE STORY OF OUR TIME. THERE'S SO MANY PEOPLE WHO DON'T WANT TO HEAR ABOUT TRUMP ANYMORE. THIS TRIAL JUST CAUSES THEM TO TUNE OUT. MAYBE THEY TUNE IN FOR THE VERDICT. >> SUSANNE CRAIG, VERDICT MAY BE NEXT WEEK? >> I'M NOT THINKING VERDICT NEXT WEEK. ANYTHING'S POSSIBLE. WE HAVE CLOSING ARGUMENTS NEXT WEEK. THEN THEY'LL HAND IT TO THE JURY. I THINK WE'RE LOOKING THIS COULD GO IN AFTER THE LONG MEMORIAL DAY, LONG WEEKEND. WE'LL HAVE CLOSING ARGUMENTS IT LOOKS LIKE NEXT WEEK. >> WILL THE JURY WANT TO WAIT THAT LONG WEEKEND? WON'T THEY WANT TO GET THIS OVER BEFORE THE HOLIDAY. >> I THINK SCHEDULING WILL BE REALLY HARD TO PACK IT ALL IN. IT MAY NOT GO TO THE JURY TILL LATE NEXT WEEK. >> JUST GIVES US MORE OPPORTUNITY TO TALK. THANK YOU ALL
