TRADING LEGENDS - Anton Kreil's Interview with Chris Cathey

[Music] [Music] I am Tom creel here from the Institute of trading and portfolio management welcome to London where I'm joined here today by one of our senior trading mentors dr. Christopher caffee are you doing Chris Griffin until you're welcome just hi this guy's have some grip so Chris welcome to London it's great to be here thank you yeah quite funny to be here actually because full disclosure you and I used to work together at Goldman Sachs yeah but a moment oh yes so we're just over here and now we're sitting here overlooking the city I joined Goldman in 2000 you were a trader on the pan European equities trading desk and I joined 2000 and you've been there for about seven years previously I joined and earlier in 1993 93 up and then I made my way around the city and left 2007 but you stayed on as well yeah I joined the Goodman in 93 start off in New York came back to London trade in the European disk of London from 93 and 94 to 98 it's been a bit of time in New York in in between times working the US markets international markets and I went to Frankfurt for a year and a half to another gem in there risk in Frankfurt and then back to London from 1990 to 2006 when I went to managers hedge fund was there for three years and left just as the financial crisis tore the kingdom and experiences of different markets different countries different sectors all all fantastic thoroughly thoroughly enjoyed it and traded in the the bull market the 90s up to the Nasdaq bubble 2000 2001 and the subsequent bear market and then the bull mullet from so the 2003-2004 loads up to a financial crisis so bull market bear market yeah bull market again picking them all and made money know them and fantastically experienced slowly enjoyed every moment and obviously worked with you for quite a long time yeah which is pretty interesting absolutely fantastic year to one and we made some money yeah we caught a pretty amazing time in the financial marketing absolutely absolutely fantastic so obviously in the last 25 years or so you've traded some incredible market moves yes some fantastic move to the upside and to the demonstration so the last 25 years all the bull markets or bear markets and I guess from a risk perspective you've been there seen it done it or before absolutely and the risk of zero CRISPR progressing through my career risk increased and increased obviously function of the marketplace as well and tend to find more risk is taken in bull market and as and then let's risking the bear market my experience that doesn't necessarily the kit that seems to be the case there's a general risk a potato there yeah and but yeah trailer bull markets traded bear markets taking risk in both and made nimman need money so on a risk from a risk perspective I think a really good thing to talk about it might be so for example like when I joined the desk at Goldman in 2000 it was obviously the peak of a bull market at that time as in the tech Nasdaq bubble and we were seen together on the trading desk but I was just a kid at that time so I was coming straight out of university 21 years old and I probably looked at the desk well not probably definitely I probably looked at the desk in the risk of the pan-european trading desk at Goldman through a different lens - the way you looked at it because you've been already there for seven years so you were seeing a guy on the desk yeah and in fact you were one of my mentors over those four years I was a government yeah the risk that you saw at that time how did you see it because we probably saw it very differently well risk is very difficult to quantify deliberative day and the dollar amount or delivered in the terms of a percentage or a multiple of daily transactions or daily turnover and clearly at Goldman Sachs I was in a huge focus on taking risk both appache and also from their customer multi mega activities the rules were both propriety and customer marking making so facilitated making prices and wearing agency business and all of this and the risk appetite across the whole film generally increased over my career there and and I think it's a Goldmann but probably at the forefront though I think most debtors operating the same amount of risk the risk is from your eyes would probably seem a bit the large and a bit crazy and being wrought being raw and being new to the business from a more experienced die it's the risk is there an opportunity to make money so unless you're willing to take risk you're not going to make any money and that's something that really you need to be comfortable with ooh if you're uncomfortable taking risk then creating is probably not for you if you come to offer it but taking risk deal correctly you can make handsome return yeah and like I say I've been internet and seen it and both will not let them bear mullet and risk is necessary part of the business and those people who like risk and embrace it trailing is the perfect perfect career perfect occupation or perfect way to make a living so risk as in volatility equals volatility equals risk and opportunity absolutely absolutely that is the difference that as the mentality of somebody who embraces trading this risk is an opportunity somebody who was more risk averse volatility can be arbitrated lose money like low volatility or longer time frames it's more investing rather than trading absolutely I mean clearly any trader has to adapt to the model conditions if we're working in an environment where the fixes and sort of 10 to 15 level and clearly with a low volatility environment more difficult to make money and more suited to run in the long term and lead them to long term long short portfolio volatility higher you have more opportunity to make shorter term trades try to find a good trader need to be able to work in both those conditions so going back so you left the market from the professional side 2008 after about 16 17 years 15 16 years yeah okay 15 16 bonuses that's the real English yeah so after 15 16 bonuses you left those professional side yeah basically we're tired like yeah and I think was it right between oh wait so 2013 you are basically not really doing much just retires relaxing relaxing there being a full-time parent and trading my own money all ok so then and then I remember the when you started givin me the very very early selecting seminars yeah neither one him if he's Durham Business School Duke as a business school and then stay with me for a while and there as the in she was getting up and running and I thought was a fantastic idea absolutely fantastic idea and not just for your own personal and involvement and developing a business but also there is a real need for the education that we can provide people so offended very very frustrating that retail traders can create by themselves without any help or education and they basically lose money so I think what you do is incredible so if you recall it like 2013 so the way the Institute progressed life seminars 2011-2012 year around the United Kingdom and then we went global in 2013 yeah and if you recall the conversation we had in 2013 was quite funny because I was literally losing my mind yes it was growing so quickly that I could not handle the amount of mentoring programs that were demanded I think the little hands were not enough hours in the day for you oh yeah literally enough I was in the day yeah so I was thinking to myself who do I call I'm obviously we work together I know your quality and new obviously if your status you stepped away from the market being retired at least a couple of years and thought this has to be the first call who do I call to mental retail traders who have a genuine need to learn how to do this properly and make money in their brokerage account and we have that five ten minute conversation very literally as through ten mentoring programs and that's how it started for me and it's been growing ever since so it's amazing we grow organically from that now to eight Mentors yeah and you've literally been the longest serving mental readiness cities yet and I thoroughly enjoyed and you've actually done the most mentoring programs right yeah I think it's around about 80 80 75 80 75 18 19 programs naturally over three and a half years or three nine zero zero closing yeah and I have been very impressed with the quality they have them near the mentees there's a willingness to the willingness to embrace risk and I think it's a perfect match for people who want to learn how the trade and the what we can give them from the Institute so from your experience when you've been mentoring these 7580 guys over the last three and a half years yeah from your experience those guys what do you see from these guys are there any common threats that you can pick up on on mistakes that we tell traders make maybe even what advice would you give retail traders when they're starting what they need to really concentrate on yeah Sam there are a few simple basic and I would say it true this but there are certain basic skills that you need to embrace some people have them some people don't but they're very easily learned is that the festival and go be patient I think the view from outside of the training world is that trade is a very short term very fast-paced completely wrong or trailers need be patient need to be patient to you've got to be patient to let your opportunities present themselves and once you've once they have presented themselves you've gotta be patient let the timing to put the trades on and then once you've taken risk you very patient to leather the trades develop just because you bought something a saw something does mean it immediately going to work is it not a short-term way to make money so you can be patient and and you've got to be humble because at the Institute we as you know we will give people in methodology how the Gela generate ideas try and get ahead of the where the economies are going and you've got to develop your own ideas don't rely on anybody else your ideas your thought process your methodology will educate you along the process but everybody fine Tunes maybes are a slight different bias of why their strengths are where the weaknesses are proof but the most important thing is that you have to be able to generate your own ideas will don't allow anybody else don't listen to peer kröger research your own ideas have their own methodology and then once you develop those ideas you need a patient to where the opportunity to present themselves okay and you have to be patient because we're looking here for anywhere between a 1 to 6 month horizon also we want to be one or two steps ahead of e IFL outlet we don't wanna be three or four steps ahead of market that is as you refer to before that's investing and actually that is one of the best piece of advice I've ever been given yeah as a youngster by you always be one or two steps ahead yeah I'm not three or four because if you're three or four steps ahead you end up sitting and waiting forever for trades to actually pan out and I know it and they generally never do not note because you'll be stopped out and I guess that's actually the going back to that point about being patient exactly that needs to be really qualified in trading because the investor spectrum and it's called in the industry the investment spectrum yeah so that one two three months or even ones a six-month timeframe where you're running a long shore portfolio that can be defined as trading and the shorter timeframe you go below that three months essentially is define the trading yeah anything beyond that slowly becomes investing absolutely and that's the three or four steps ahead I'm not the one or two steps ahead right absolutely and the our expertise and our experience that we've had trading is ideally suited to that one two three or even three or six months will horizon anything more than that you run the risk of and too many variables entering into the performance of whatever your positions are and you can be stopped out because as you know one of the things that we do stress the Institute and you mentioned about the mentees all the mentees who have been to the program we have been stopped out of positions like this is absolutely key to the discipline of these successful trading every trader needs to be able to get stopped out of a bad position who or an unprofitable position pool that is absolutely key and it's a process that every mentee has gone through and wants to come out the other side then it's there on the the you attract to be a successful accomplished trader but that will take time that will take up to anywhere up to two years like the mentees as they've said them and the mentor memberships is that you should be looking to be at the end of two years and accomplished professional trader right it's not going to happen overnight as in an all-round for an all-around trader and you need to be patient with your own progress yeah as you get to that stage and there will be W pluses and they'll be my missus but it's a long-term process and you need to be patient with your own development such an interesting point on patience again so before he talked about patience with your process patience with your positions yeah but obviously a long the investment spectrum we're trading the time horizon of one two three months and that's training in not investing you know so patients can in when it comes to your own portfolio positions goes up to a certain time horizon but then also with patients like you to set patience with your own progress and your own development absolutely so I find a lot of retail traders and you've probably seen quite a bit of this before it's the mentees yeah they all want to get up the blocks and really quickly manage place up some do and all they only want risk on straightaway they back themselves as we try to push guys yeah but it's not going to happen for weeks no so you think it should be they should be targeting a bigger picture as in two years absolutely and what backwards from that yeah yeah my experience of the mentees is that you had a very key to take risk it almost got a real in a minute a little bit and wait for the opportunity present themselves weird for the timing can be right to put the trades on and then let be patient to the trades develop but as vehicle to that process we are learning and developing and ultimately as you know what we're trying to do is we're trying to take people to teach people how to think for themselves who ok responsibility for their own financial well-being and this has implications for the rest of your life if you're willing to back yourself that's another thing that the trader must do right there's no point doing what's great to generate ideas unless you're willing to take a risk and back your ideas who then it's pointless and we're teaching people to do that in every every aspect of our life so this is actually somewhere where we talk sometimes for short a lot of guys want to go out the gate straight away absolutely I think they can be really good in like four six eight weeks and it's not going to happen can't become an accomplice Trey during that month there is no to explain but then on the other end of the spectrum sometimes it's the same people it can be the same people they want to get out the gates then they backtrack they lose confidence they you get you get other guys or it can be the same person with a split personality you're absolutely they want to trade paper money and they want to have to get mail account and we have this saying in the Institute demo accounts don't account you've got to be in the game because you cannot actually quantify a traders progress over a period of time without actually having real money and risk and backing themselves because you can't measure emotional detachment to P&L and in terms of emotions I would say probably out of all mentors that I've had in the last 20 years you probably been the number one guy that's taught me to be emotionless when it comes to pl well how do you control your emotions emotional control is absolutely essential who to be in successful trading the the most important thing about is as you said it to the detachment a few things that I have learned about trading is that first of all don't try and give yourself will never give us any financial targets don't try and achieve a certain amount to return the returns because then I'll make it trade badly because you're trying to force things around there so if first of all you've got to be realistic about the risk that you're taking Google and you've got to be realistic about where your soft targets are where you're looking to take profit and so that's one thing that you've got to be you've got a bit your trading is also a function of what the opportunities which are revealed on the market place to take the emotion out of it is that is the most important part of trading is when you get stopped out everything before you put a trade on you need to know what your stop losses and if your stop-loss is triggered you execute the position you exit the position and get out and this happens to every single trader maybe traders and being successful will have been soft other positions stop losses and a dissident absolutely key and this is where the emotional attachment is absolutely key because you need to have the emotional detachment from your P&L okay you're right you're realizing a loss but you need to be able to switch that off and exit the position Oh a good example of that is when we were on the desk at Goldman okay I think somos renovates at the 2000-2001 right just as the Nasdaq bubble started to burst okay and we had the end peak subsequently so they look as though that we'd hit a peak of free air a few months here and obviously in a bear market there's going to be some vicious squeezes along the way nothing ever goes up or down the straight line so a massive short Amin so we had those of on the one day we were very very sure in the back book yeah Marvel was squeezing and we sorta gapping to the upside we were getting short everything in the front book oh yeah this is painful yeah I think we were we were down a lot of money and I think at one stage with short poly about half a billion dollars - yes Rhett another million dollars and we n stuff leaves four hundred million dollars if at lunch time yeah at lunch time they help my girls yeah lunch wasn't important - good idea okay and we thought okay what do we do this is the emotional detachment we could panic and cover the whole lot who we were we were we came in short our party view was to be sure that the moments were going down our stocks were gonna win telecoms technology clearly high beta in that environment so market goes down to percent some these stocks are going on a between between five and ten percent and vice versa and the short squeeze they were seeing Marvel's of 1/2 percent judicious moves are shorter up anywhere between two Leah five percent that's the nature of the beast that the volatility which like I said is opportunity but clearly there's also and peanuts wings associated will have yeah so we were short we were bearish for taking short buy a lot of them guys buying stocks added to short cover or to have a pun so think that the Marvel turned and everything's go back to the height we didn't think so however lunchtime you had a conversation very short this conversation there's actually a horrible conversation to have well we could've panicked because they cover the whole lot because we're losing money that wasn't our view and we could have panicked and being a rubber band headlight yeah Rosen yeah unable to do anything equally as bad because we were there as market makers we are there to provide liquidity to institutions and we that was our job yeah we needed to become to be able to continue the trade only way we could do this as we as you remember is that we bought euros oaks yes and before we did it we bought the your stocks because we needed to reduce the risk I literally will not remember having this conversation um where they say makes each other and we literally location said what the hell do we do here we have to do something yeah and we don't like what were doing that we have to do it and that's about staying in motion I guess thank objective slang in motion comparing something we have it we had to be unemotional and detached from our PNL and our risk just looked exclusively risk we were too in short we had to reduce that because we needed to stay in the game will be boarding your socks and we both here this is going to be a holiday so it's going to eternal it was early was the high of the day I think we printed the high of the day in your socks somebody has to yeah however when the market saw the tin again in the afternoon or we did do is we increase the positions and increase the short that I would say is textbook of how to trade we didn't increase the shorts on the way up we wait until we reduce the risk to get it back in motion obviously we saw the newest stocks at a loss because our view was still to be short but when we had confirmation in our own mind that the trade was not going to work then we increased it on the end of the at the end of the day we were actually we actually came out of the day up I mean we're up smaller than the length but then the negative the next two days we made a very big emoni so in terms of objectivity the risk in that scenario it's almost like a textbook case study of emotional detachments were very mature because the objectivity and the risk management practices that we were implementing right at them those moments it was actually all about doing the right thing at the right time and that's actually a skill set that you can't learn unless you've you're in it I'm doing it for real with real money right absolutely and actually doing the right thing at the right time means we were printing the Euro stocks at the top and we were literally the topic when we were short that day and then putting further shorts on when we were told that the market was going down and collapsing and we actually came out of that day surviving and just about making some money when we were down massive yeah now what's interesting about it as well is in the context if you remember we were on the goldman sachs trading floor yep it was about 2425 traders on the desk yep and surrounding you on the trading floor there's like 200 to 250 people and every single person can see all the positions of the traders yeah and all the PNL of every trader and in scenarios like that the trading floor there's quite for the whole afternoon and you're in literally in the goldfish bowl and when you think about it like that you can really panic and really start to make really very stupid decisions because your whole career can rest on the next several decisions that afternoon so the training of emotional detachment obviously in that environment is insanely intense for its framework so we've been very at the sharp end yeah retail traders sitting at home there's no boss looking over their shoulder there's no one telling them what you're doing is incorrect absolutely so emotional detachment is probably more difficult for a retail trader sitting at home by themselves exactly that I would agree completely I think being a retail trader sitting at home by themselves could be quite a lonely life well I think this is one of the real subtle positives about the mentorship program is that it's not only the schedule mimics course but it's also the contact because I've been in situations I'm sure all traders have been where you question your own judgement yeah it's always good to have this a little sounder board I'm a completely creative you think about this all have you looked at their so you thought about that and just to sort of have a bit of reality check and but the emotional attachment is absolutely key and this is where we stress the stop losses will you need to get spin divert stop losses and also as you alluded to that we increased our short when they were starting to work again the detachment from if you start a position and it's moved against you don't accuse it will only include physicians when they are working which may sound counterintuitive but that is the emotional attachment that you need don't fall in up in a position and create it correctly so I guess the basic premise here is there's obviously a lot more to trading than just this but having the emotional detachment adds to winners when they're liking absolutely and when it absolutely can have absolutely no emotion to cut losses no I think two winners cutting and cutting losers is exactly the same process all you're doing is risk margin and you put it you're putting the risk award in your favor that's all trying to get that's all are trying to get the mentees that's when I get the retail traders from the Institute that's all trying to get them to do so at all times you want to get a risk order in your favor and that may be increasing risk at the right time but also reducing risk at the right thing so in terms in terms of that in terms of risk management that's all great big if you can be an amazing risk manager yeah but let's be brutally honest it yeah if your idea is a crap yeah you're going to have to end up being the greatest risk manager of all time because your ideas are just awful right so ideas play a massive part as well absolutely cruel I think the idea generation and the risk management are as equally as important as each other absolutely central vo generator your own ideas and it's also absolutely essential to risk manage those ideas correctly and you need both you can't do whatever so how in terms of ideas how do you and obviously I have a rough idea but in terms of some small some details how do you take someone on a journey over a number of weeks months and teach them how to start generating their own ideas well the easiest process to the easiest idea generation that I think is looking at the leading indicators in the US market and we have the same indicators in Europe the u.s. is just you've got high quality information with a very very poor deathly morbid and you have got consistent information which is we can rely on you have the same information in Europe but not the same breadth of the equity market also the u.s. is easiest place to to generate ideas not only generate ideas but also you have the wherewithal to implement those ideas we're looking at the lead indicators because the equity mullet as itself is an indicator but it's typically anywhere from between one and six months ahead of the economy we want to be ahead of the where the equity model is ahead of the economy and we're looking where the trends are we talked about one two three months or three to six month trades the easiest way to make money is to identify the trend and write it and we do that by looking the lead indicators look at the sectors you drill down in the sector's where where the growth is where the slowdown is and we generate the probit sector to be long and short and then we do some stock selection within that I have my tools which I use and which I'll communicate to the mentees encourage them to look at their own things as well and then I have my own technical alysus that I use again it's not exhaustive and one thing about Ted analysis is as you where as you were very well aware of we use teleclasses only to detain the entry into our trades we don't know you generate trades from a technologists all need to generate the entry points again like I said we'll try to get the risk reward as much in your favor to time the entry into the positions once that's done that's the idea generation pot and this is where again go back to patients you can generate a fantastic set of ideas however if the timing doesn't look right right here right now be patient will sit on your hands and wait for the time going to be right the timing will come right you made to have to be patient and I may take long when you think I have put numerous trades on boredom trades you go on where nothing's going on you trying to force something so you end up losing money cut the position and you think what an idiot all you're doing is trying to check rules or the market yeah this is goes back to the patient this is what I've learnt this is what you what you've learned and this is not something that we China and still in the mentees by the Institute absolutely key will do not do any boredom period and your customary and your three legged mother but also I think a good idea in training is not necessarily one that invention works no a good idea in trading to me is one that is probably going to work quite soon yet and it develops and happens and in your inning you at you know that's what the markets there for yeah to take the opportunity absolutely it depends anytime for it really emerged around attention and depends on the opportunity which present themselves one thing I absolutely guarantee is that there are always opportunities out there yeah you we may not be able identify them but there are always opportunities out over that one's a three month window in the US equity market yeah the amount of ideas is just insane absolutely absolutely the whole pot is filtering it so you can filter them so that you can make the right the right decision or generate the right idea because there's so much information over there the skill is get the methodology right when he works for you and then use it and mrs. Ginn go back to the mentees to any successful trader you need to back your ideas you need to back yourself so this is one of the fundamental issues that I find with retail traders and a lot of it comes down to the limiting factors of retail traders which and the biggest one is time so the guys running their own business a small medium-sized business if a guy is working for a corporate you know nine to five eight or six whatever how many hours do they have really to generate ideas and I find one of the biggest issues for retail traders is having enough ideas to feed a portfolio where they can actually manage risk properly once they have positions on yeah and so for example like a eight ten twelve stock asset portfolio obviously you can't have a ten stock portfolio with nine ideas no you can't have a ten stock portfolio with twelve ideas no because not all your ideas are going to be workable no I mean you're going to have to have 20-plus ideas as a minimum absolutely how do these retail trade get it so the idea generation process is really important and as important as which monument absolutely essential absolute until but the process that I talked about it takes time to get to become to become comfortable with it once you come to with it and the timeframe the actual amount of time that you have to spend to generate the fresh ideas will become less and less you know what you're looking for now you know how to get the information getting out of put it all together you know generate the ideas so it's time consuming to start off with this is what we want to on the mentoring program how to generate those ideas but once you're comfortable with that process then it becomes much more time for a nice repeatable absolutely and as you said about if you want to have a eight to twelve stock portfolio you could have at least twenty ideas and so if we've got eight to ten positions and we've got twenty ideas and I watch this it's essential to keep out watchlist up to date and this is one of the key witnesses are find with the mentees is making sure that your watchlist is up to date because your watch this is your next generation of potential trades yeah so any of your trades which should get stopped out or anything which look stale want anything which the official economics trade economic fundamentals change on your idea get out as crazy camp but your watchlist is your subs bench this is where your next trades are coming from so it's absolutely essential that every month you get the depression economic releases you refresh your watchlist and that watch this needs to current it original uni learn work exactly here and that needs to be a list of trades that are ready to go but not today and it's ready to go today you look at your portfolio is everything exactly how I want it to be at all times your portfolio should reflect your view if it doesn't change your portfolio you're in the oil trades essentially exactly and you change your portfolio by having your watchlist up-to-date that's absolutely key so I guess back to that limiting factor the timing yeah like the ID generation process and the limiting factor of timing for retail traders I mean I guess that's exactly why you have or me and everyone needs a mentor in trading at least to begin with absolutely because a retail trade I can't buy in a book no no off the shelf for like $20 on Amazon or whatever if you've got to actually live it for real absolutely exactly why you need a mentor completely I need a mentor and they absolutely you need a little bit for real but it is tank consume in style office but wanted comfortable process it's a very time efficient see the muscle memory becomes repeatable absolutamente learn how to implement it in your real life absolutely cool so you've been out the city now public investments public equities public assets for a number of years yeah on the professional side and one of the things like you're actually doing in your retirement is you're actually investing a lot in private equity yep so investing going private businesses yet private businesses SMEs who will look for established businesses cash relative profitable who need basically cash to grow okay and we source the money from a variety differenced attunes and typically we have a combination of debt and equity which we go into basically any sector we've got some very dull sectors I sort of potted in this on supply chain and we have got a paneling company which puts panels in them and freezes refugees lorries we've got a variety or just orders taken it and bespoke construction company in Newcastle ok this is this is not sexy stuff this is not giving the front page of the of The Wall Street Journal they're ft however they said there's a lot of money to be made yeah and it's the real nuts and bolts business and it's it's it's very very very enjoyable it's a sultry yeah but erm it's good this may slightly so on paper not sexy with reality if it just makes money who cares right there's money in Luton but yeah so very like trading absolute sounds like you're taking your training disciplines over to private equity the changes of the disability exactly the same and this is how the Institute can affect the way you think we're trying to teach you to think get the skillset get the process and you can apply to every aspect of your life I think someone once told me about a decade ago from Goldman Sachs a successful trader becomes always a successful human and you can implement all of the skill sets calculating trading after your real life absolutely country I'll make the hundred remember to do that it's been a it's been a pleasure to have you in London we've really got a few dinners coming up after that thanks for thanks for the interview and very happy to continue having you on board at the Institute belay to be on board incredible mentor to our guys and give me a very health and mental to me Garmin yes and thank so much kid [Music] you [Music]

Channel: InstituteofTrading

Views: 385,249

Rating: 4.9084253 out of 5

Keywords: Anton Kreil, Million Dollar Traders, Stocks, StockMarket, FOREX, Options Trading, Institute of Trading, Portfolio Management, Goldman Sachs, Wall Street, Trading, Interview, Finance, NYSE, NASDAQ, Tim Sykes, Lex Van Dam, Trader, Warrior Trading, Ross Cameron, Instutrade, Success, Coaching, Mentoring, Chris Cathey, Christopher Cathey

Id: 0Zls8M2izTo

Length: 36min 41sec (2201 seconds)

Published: Wed Jul 12 2017