I'm David nolles and this is Ukraine the latest today as well as the regular updates and news we bring you an honest and Searing account of warfare captivity and freedom from former British soldier and Ukrainian Marine Sean Pinner bravery takes you through the most unimaginable hardships to finally reward you with Victory if we give president zinski the schools the ukrainians will finish the job Slava ukraini nobody's going to break us we're strong we Ukraine is every weekday afternoon we sit down with leading journalists from the telegraphs London Newsroom and our teams reporting on the ground to bring you the latest news and analysis on the war in Ukraine it's Wednesday 27th of March 2 years and 32 days since the fullscale invasion began and today I'm joined by our associate editor Dominic Nichols assistant comment editor Francis dley senior foreign correspondent Roland olant and our guest is Shawn Pinner a warning for our listeners this episode contains graphic descriptions of violence and of physical and mental torture I started by asking Dom for the latest updates from Ukraine well hi David hi everybody so another busy day although very notable that for what is it now second or third day running the wave of air attacks is not what it was uh from Russia anyway let's dive in so Ukrainian forces say they have repelled 21 attacks on the Nova Papa front that's just the west of donet City this comes from ke's general staff however they do say of particular concern is the settlement of noo Mika that's about 20K Southwest of donet City Center Russian ground troops and aircraft have focused the majority of their efforts in the last 24 hours in that area repeatedly attempting to breach Ukrainian defenses Russian forces are thought to control up to about half of the settlement this comes from the isw institute for the study of war in the US and when we say settlement again this is an era I've been chatting with a few people online I mean it's the Ukrainian phrase which seems to mean everything from small village up to medium-sized Town not cities but yeah I mean settlement does I think to many westerners sound like just a few houses um but I think in Ukrainian terms it's Village up to town size anyway the Ukraine general staff said in total the enemy carried out four missile strikes 52 air strikes and 43 shelling attacks on the position of our troops and settlements now there have been more Russian air strikes overnight on harke Sumi also came under heavy fire yesterday with at least 180 explosions across the region that comes from the local Administration there 13 Shahed drones were fired at Ukraine over night so only 13 not not good but only 13 compared to the numbers we saw last week that is massively down 10 was shot down over HSI and near ke now in a border area Russia said that its air defense systems had shot down 18 Rockets near the border city of belgrod that has been an area of increased activity of late belgrod Governor said one person was wounded there now next now what's becoming a Hot Topic thanks in no small part really to the work of Francis Farrell our friend at the KE independent and the guys at um objective Ukraine Ukraine says it has dug miles of trenches in heon oblast to bolster its defenses against Russian attacks Alexander Pudin heon's military Chief posting on telegram said there are kilometers of anti-tank trenches and non-explosive barriers we are building this second line of defense in herzon oblast we are doing this with one goal in mind to protect the already liberated territories now footage of the trenches posted on social media show quite a web of deep furrows carved into Baron Fields with vast quantities of Earth piled up nearby now I would say that is a good start but should not be the finished product I mean I look at that and I think do those trenches have overhead cover and properly revetted sides are you sides that have been bolstered with ideally sheets of metal or wood but something to hold the sides up to prevent the trenches collapsing if a shell lands nearby I'm looking at them I'm thinking are those positions mutually supporting so you can support you can bring fire down onto enemy attacking some of your colleagues and likewise you can be supported if it's happening to you have they made proper efforts to conceal them and I don't think they have if the Earth is just piled up nearby that's very obvious from the air now it might be a work in progress but you should get rid of all that Earth and cover it over with the turf that you've dug up or if the whole place is just one big muddy Heap that doesn't necessarily matter but you should do more to conceal the position rather than just try and paint everything unless the whole thing's part of a big deception plan and that's what they want Russia to see but I don't think that is the case so I think this is a good start but not what a proper defensive position should look like I talk more about this stuff in this week's defense in depth film which we filmed it this morning it's out tomorrow about fortifications anyway president zalinski you may remember announced earlier this month that the Ukraine's military is on track to construct over 12200 miles of defensive fortifications aimed at keeping the Russian Advance at Bay but there is defensive fortifications and then there are just holes in the ground and they're not necessarily the same thing right next one ke's prosecutor General has said that more than 10,000 Ukrainian civilians are being held by Russia more than 5,600 of them have been subjected to torture Andre ctin speaking to interfax Ukraine said there are different figures we estimate tens of thousands more than 10,000 for sure we we are talking only about those who were forcibly relocated not about those who made this decision at their own discretion as for the victims of torture Mr cin said the true figures may be much higher adding that 164 Russian torture chambers and forc detention centers have been discovered in liberated Ukrainian territories linked to that a report came out last night I think a report by the office of the UN High Commissioner for human rights the ohchr you'll see it around was released yesterday this report says that at least 32 Ukrainian prisoners of War PS or PWS in British military Parliament but means the same thing 32 prisoners of War recently captured by Russia have been executed between December the 1st last year and the end of February this year now reports of Ukrainian prisons of War being tortured or killed while in Russian captivity have been surfacing since the start of the fullscale invasion as of late February Ukraine's prosecutor General's office that I've just mentioned they said 19 criminal investigations were underway regarding the execution of 45 Ukrainian pows now that that stat those stats are separate from the UN report but I mention it for context this un report just because it is damning so it's important to try and get a get an idea of of how much weight to put on it first of all the methodology they base their information on 74 field visits 20 to to places of detention and 10 visits to care institutions or shelters they also went to 29 trial hearings and conducted 767 interviews with victims and Witnesses of human rights violations as well as relatives and lawyers government representatives and members of the Civil Society they looked at court documents official records and other material including open sources so the UN team interviewed 60 Ukrainian soldiers released from Russian captivity after that they recorded 12 cases of executions of at least 32 people so 32 people 12 separate events if you like the report says ohcr so that's the office for the High Commissioner for human rights has verified three of these incidents in which Russian servicemen executed seven Ukrainian servicemen order to combat order combat means when you are no longer able to take part in combat either because you are wounded or you've been detained so you you are not a functioning Soldier even if you are still on the field of battle um the report carries on their accounts confirmed the previously documented facts of widespread torture inhuman or degrading treatment and Punishment of Ukrainian PS in Russian captivity as well as detention conditions that do not comply with international law the report goes on ohcr continued to have regular access to Russian PS in territory under Ukrainian control and interviewed 44 of them including during a visit to a newly established p camp in the venitzia region Ohr acknowledges the continued efforts of the government of Ukraine to provide conditions of internment in official facilities compliant with International standards however Ohr also received credible allegations of instances of torture and ill treatment of Russian PS committed in transit places after their evacuation from the battlefield just one final one from the report it says in occupied territory Russian authorities continued imposing Russian political legal and admin administrative systems in violation of their obligations as an occupying power contrary to the prohibition in international humanitarian law against compelling inhabitants to swear allegiance to the occupying power the Russian authorities systematically exerted pressure on residents to acquire Russian Federation citizenship and passports and to engage in other patriotic in quote bunny is other patriotic activities to demonstrate loyalty to the occupying power so it does seem I mean it's very difficult they say that they've verified um well nearly 11,000 civilians been killed since the fullscale invasion it is very difficult for them to get firsthand account of Ukrainian prisoners of war in Russia they can only hear when people have come back there's obviously that health warning they totally acknowledge themselves but I think is it is a a useful contribution to their work I'm very critical of the UN in other areas as you know but I think it's something like this that that does seem the methodology to me seems sound and um the conclusions are quite Stark but there'll be there's many holes to pick in it but I think it's a useful contribution anyway next one an assassination campaign possibly run by ke Security Services has killed more than a dozen Ukrainian citizens collaborating with the Kremlin in Russian occupied territory this comes from Ukraine's spy Chief leftenant General vasil maluk who was the head of the sbu the Ukrainian Security Service he said that since the fullscale invasion secret operatives have targeted very many individuals responsible for attacks against Ukrainian citizens working deep Behind Enemy Lines including inside Russia he claimed the assassination campaign run through networks of secret agents has prioritized Ukrainian Nationals collaborating with Moscow to arrest and torture other ukrainians but that forly keev cannot take responsibility for the killings he was speaking in an hourlong interview with ictv the national broadcaster he said officially we will not admit to this which I think he might just have done but then says but at the same time I can offer some details General M went on to list in precise detail how several Pro kremin officials were killed including in few instances the caliber of the bullet and the exact weight of explosives used so yeah I think he's I think he's given a few details there unless it is all a deception plan as I say um maybe I'm just paranoid don't know and then just finally for me the European Union has delivered half a million shells artillery ammunition shells to keev comes from Yos Burell the eu's Chief Diplomat he said he was speaking as he he renewed the promise to provide a million shells by the end of this year it was originally the end of last year but they've changed it now to the end of this year uh he said we have donated 500,000 artillery shells to Ukraine and by the end of the year it will be more than a million now on top of that on top of the million another 400,000 shells are going to be provided through commercial contracts with the European Defense industry Mr Burell added he said the Czech initiative to buy ammunition outside the EU comes in addition to these efforts that's the Czech initiative that's going to seek to buy 800,000 shells with various countries putting money in the pot for that however Mr Burell stressed that Europe providing the shells it has promised you CR by the end of the year is what he said a minimum requirement it is far from being enough and we have to increase both our capacity of production and the financial resources devoted to support Ukraine he said okay good that's good nice one words are easy I will only give Mr brell the full thumbs up when they are delivered David but at least for now they're saying the right things we can hold them to account later that's us up to date David thank you very much Dom Francis dley what's been across your desk this morning well well thanks David it's been an open question ever since the Moscow Concert Hall attack as to the degree to which the kremin itself believes that keev is somehow responsible as it says publicly versus it using that as a deliberate deflection tool from their own failures on stopping the attack this is a really important question because there is evidence that when regimes whip themselves into a frenzy at times at War they began or begin to believe their own lies in the Russian context one need only look at the paranoia that fested during the Cold War in the Soviet Union when they came to believe their own exaggerated narratives about external threats and internal stability some welcome news therefore if true that reason and facts do still have some weight among Russian Elites comes in a report from Bloomberg that many of Putin's close allies refused to believe his claim that Ukraine was involved in the terrorist attack citing four people with close ties to the Kremlin it says Kremlin officials were shocked by the failure of the security services to prevent Friday's Massacre and that barely anyone within Russia's political or business Elite believes Ukraine was behind the attack according to One Source Putin was present at discussions where officials agreed there is no connection to keev yet the president remains determined to use the tragedy to try and rally Russians behind the war now it is important to stress in that context that the tentacles of Russian propaganda travel far beyond Russia itself even within Russian expa communities living in the west many listeners will have seen the footage of people lining up Russian embassies to vote with some quite gladly saying they voted for Putin when asked in the queue by journalists I know many will find it extraordinary that people can enjoy the benefits of a NATO country including access to a free press and still openly repeat Russian propaganda narratives one listener passed on that in one Norwegian Town Putin allegedly got more than 80% of the votes and in the capital Oslo over 50% I'd welcome more research on this phenomenon and if anyone knows of any please do reach out to me via Twitter or the usual address now another narrative the Kremlin seems Keen to pedal is anti-Semitism with Dimitri pesov the Kremlin spokesman when asked how zilinski would be linked to the m terror attack as he claims replied well there is a particular kind of Jew over there a Jew who in many ways show sympathy and inclination to the Nationalist spirit that has permeated the leadership of the keev regime the insinuation there seems to be that Jewish people ought not to be expected to be loyal to their own country one of the oldest anti-semitic tropes but turning to the West now a very interesting and important piece of Insight reported again in Bloomberg that Emanuel macron infuriated us officials by hinting that NATO troops could be deployed in Ukraine as listeners will know the French President last month refused to rule out putting boots on the ground in Ukraine a move that senior us officials say risks triggering direct conflict with Moscow according to one official familiar with the matter Mr macron's comments were designed to keep the Kremlin guessing but officials familiar with with NATO discussions on Ukraine said they may have had the opposite effect according to the report by forcing Berlin to publicly rule out the possibility of sending troops macron managed to dispel what living ambiguity there had been about the whereabouts of allies red lines it reported meanwhile from an operational standpoint the comments risked jeopardizing several countries who already quietly had some Personnel in Ukraine separate officials reported so that is apparently Washington's perspective on macron's remarks but I think if I may say it's a rather ungenerous reading after all Moscow was already very much aware that countries had Personnel in Ukraine and was also very intimate with where Germany's red lines are what macr managed to do consciously or not was move the conversation into a different space which I would argue alongside many others is especially vital for the months ahead namely where the red lines are and making it clear to the Kremlin that there are some countries who would consider putting boots on the ground in certain extreme scenarios that's not just France there are other countries particularly in Central and Eastern Europe who have also articulated that for Washington to privately condemn this therefore is I would argue unhelpful for achieving their stated aims of supporting Ukraine as it is becoming increasingly clear that Kei requires more support not less than it is currently receiving and if that cannot come in the form of weapons it must come in the form of policy shifts I.E making commitments Moscow dare not cross given that we know Moscow operates in the political space that is afforded to it fundamentally as I said last week even if Joe Biden wins the presidency in November there needs to be a recognition the Washington is unlikely to go further in its support of Ukraine we hear that from very very senior officials offline therefore if European nations are really to stand by their commitments to Ukraine then they will have to step up themselves in terms of weapons and in terms of political commitments so this is a really fundamental area this and one we will continue to return to because fundamentally there there is a gap in understanding about what is needed I would argue between certain European nations and Washington and with the Reliance that there is or has been on Washington more is going to have to be done by European nations if they are to stand by their commitments as I say now turning to Ukraine specifically just wanted to give a very quick update on the ongoing grain War as is often articulated ke's agriculture Minister has said that the Franco poolish drive to increase curbs on Ukrainian food imports into the EU risks prolonging Russia's War he said that the additional restrictions designed to Plate Farmers taking part in protests against EU rules would hit ke's revenues adding that 80% of the problems that are usually connected to Ukrainian exports do not exist they are imaginary and for listeners who are interested in this I recommend you listen to yesterday's episode if you missed it where I summarized a very interesting article in Politico which shows in detail really with with graphs how much of the so-called grain war is caused by Russia's export strategy as opposed to Ukrainian grain as it's often perceived as so an interesting subject but lots going on David and I know we've got more to unpack with Roland and very interested to hear Shan's Reflections on the P's issues later on well thank you very much Francis and Dom as Francis said let's go to Roland first and then to Shan thank you so much Sean for waiting so patiently Roland uh not a brief update but just one story to cover um you've been looking at some um interesting news on potential developments in the war on the Russian side can you tell us about this yeah I I just thought I'd flag this so Medusa and the independent Russian language Outlet put out quite an interesting piece yesterday just after we recorded yesterday's podcast it's basically speaking to they speaking to four people close to the Russian government they say the sources are two Kremlin insiders a source in the government or the presidential Administration and a high ranking member of United Russia and it looks like report that the Gan is a kind of what are we going to expect from Putin's fifth that obviously was then overtaken by events at croa City Hall but it's interesting remarks I mean the first one seems to be that there's a consensus that the kocer city hall attacks aren't necessarily going to change many of uh Putin's priorities you can see that the quote is currently the top leadership isn't articulating clear decisions just reassuring citizens there's an established formula avoid making sudden moves if possible and that kind of fits with the reporting from Bloomberg that Francis just referred to yesterday that says that Bloomberg's own sources and I I would put a lot of store by that Bloomberg has a good record of decently placed sources quite close to the Russian government talking on sensitive things saying that basically inside the government no one really believes that Ukraine was behind it but a decision appears to have been made to pin this on Ukraine because that's the convenient thing to do and by the way you can see that in today's Russian papers if you look at h m prda probably the biggest selling Russian tabloid it's the headline is about the West being behind it argumenty facty extraordinary front page with pictures of Boris Johnson richy sunak and Vladimir zinski and Joe Biden and a headline basically saying we know who inspired that attack so that decision's clearly been made this is going to be pinned officially by the Russian government on Ukraine if there was any doubt about that at all but but coming back to this Medusa piece so these insiders put the question to him what do expect from the from his coming term they mostly say nothing's going to change there's going to be continued repressions at home there's going to be he's going to continue the war and they all seem to say that Putin's priority Remains the war but then the question becomes okay what are his objectives now and there's a bit of a division here one one of these sources says after the failure of the cter offensive Putin perceives Ukraine as weak and is ready to go all the way to Victory even to Kev no matter what the cost if he needs to schol for mobilization he'll call for mobilization if needs to put the economy further onto a war footing he will do that another this is this is actually the interesting thing that caught my eye so I'll just read it out the paragraph actually in contrast another source close to the administration believes Putin has quote more realistic goals namely capturing kiv and then concluding the special military operation so we know Vladimir Putin has stated that he need a buffer zone to protect belgrad and you may remember that a few days ago the independent Russian Outlet vesa reported that the Kremlin is considering a mobilization of 300,000 men specifically for Attack on kiv and I've just looked through our own reporting I think back in January Jay Barnes was reporting concerns about another Russian p on Carib so I think this is what caught my eye I think there's clearly a drum beat here and and it's worth really paying attention to that particular part of the front is that what they're going to do the other interesting comment in this piece regarding that is like look the decision on mobilization that depends on what happens at the front one of these sources is saying like crocus doesn't really come into it so everything's ready for the mobilization if it's decided that they need it and and we've talked a lot about how the kremin May exploit the crocus attack to to justify it but remember we were talking about the likelihood um of a new wave of mobilization after the election long before that so that's the basic takeaway keep an eye on K continuation of the war and a probably a determined effort by the Kremlin to lame the West turn the hatred around the hatred and the anger and first for Revenge around the crocus attack against the Western Ukraine but essentially make sure that it doesn't interfere with the main priority which is pursuit of the war thank you so much Dom Francis and Roland Shawn Pinner is a former British soldier and Ukrainian Marine during The fullscale Invasion he fought for Ukraine at the siege of mar upul he was captured by the Russians and subjected to months of physical and mental torture following a show trial that handed down the death penalty he was months later traded back in a prisoner exchange we spoke to sha about his time fighting his experiences as a p and his view on how to maintain hope even in the darkest of times Sean thank you so much for joining us could you just for listeners who maybe haven't heard your name before even though they should have done can you tell us a little bit about yourself uh and and your career and your life over the past few years oh thank you for having me on it's my pleasure I'm former British military Bosnia Northern Island i' served in I'm SE trained as well which is survival evasion resistance skape trained I did that in America just before a second deployment to Bosnia and Croatia I'm a former Ukrainian Marine a former national guard instructor of Ukraine section Commander BTR Commander first Foreigner to command a position on the front lines in Ukraine I would pass the Marines test one of the first foreigners to do that not just a a foreigner but one of the oldest guys to do that I passed all aspects of Ukrainian Parish who tradeing with four combat jumps one night jump nine in total married to Ukrainian lived in Mar opal since 2018 I have legal status legal residency in in Ukraine pay my taxes in Ukraine and now I talk about my experiences at the hands of the Russians to NATO troops uh and most NATO countries also try and keep Ukraine the public eye on social media do some charity work and I really I've wrote written a book as well about my experience so I've been busy since my exchange well tell us about the full scale Invasion what did you do where did you find on the day of the full scale Invasion I was about 800 meters forward of the first line I was in eled post trying to identify positions where the Russians or the DPR would fire artillery mortors locate them pass them back to my command post who then launch a counter battery onto those position i s and I was deployed December the 12th 2021 so I was already in the trenches two or 3 months before the full scale Invasion and we like I said we this was my third or fourth Tour on the front line in Ukraine defending my city where I had a House on the Left Bank in Mar opal about 25 minutes 30 minutes from my position fly enough so from my front room you could actually hear the shell and then shelling the positions on the front lines to DPR the Russians so you know for me it was about defending City and on that opening day it was the most intense fighting I'd ever ever seen you know as a soldier it was real shocking all stuff grad artillery sbgs RPGs and also the Russians had four super air superiority so all we had was surface to air iglas that weren't cutting the mustard to so to speak and we pretty bad at shooting the planes so we really had nothing to combat that essentially also a couple of weeks before the Invasion the the Technologies changed the drones become better they were able to drop ordinance at night suddenly the drones had thermal in five years we hadn't seen that two days before The Invasion I was teaching guys how to use the end law and I was the only one that had any experience in firing it the law 94 some 25 30 years ago and which positively made me a Gandalf when trying to teach them two or three days before The Invasion how to use edlaw I found myself Googling a PDF of the optic systems of the new endl and then relaying that information to my guys and then we pulled back to did a several day pullback fighting back fight withdraw back to Mar opal I mean for us two weeks before the invasion they were already started to bomb The Villages behind us and trying to get behind our positions in Pavo which was about 15 20 minutes outside Mar opal and so so for us I mean it wasn't February the 24th it had already started and that's how we ended up going back into Mar opal over a period of several days can you tell us about how the battle for marip pole then the siege of marip pole went for you and your men well after several days I had to make a choice whether I was going to be over oova largely for four or five years nobody knew who I was but the journalist had pulled out from Mar opal quite early a week before The Invasion and pulled out to safer areas but I I really had a a block on any sort of news from February the 20 24th because the jamming and the the Russians were taking out the mobile masks and so so so it really didn't didn't have any news for several days until I got back into marot then my phone started and everything just 200 messages came through all at the same time so I really had to really catch up with the information make a decision whether I was going to tell the world what was happening in maral or or whether I was going to still stay under the radar but I made the choice to to broadcast on a a channel in UK who asked me to do some footage and unfortunately that the antenas went up in Russia one so did that but for several weeks we dug in and we held out and Commander control was good up until the point we around sort of April we were getting smashed constantly in Mar opal I remember the day when the theater got blew up for my my Pon Sergeant just s came around and said they' blown the theater and so it was pretty intensive we were already running out of food and water at that point so by April we were really down to our Bare Bones lost 60% of Alon three btrs got taken out my best friend Deo and even off and and a few others were killed uh but 60% of our guys were were injured through shatel I mean drones were coming into our position fly 10 feet above the ground looking in through doors and windows trying to find us it was something out of Terminator and when I joined the army we didn't even have phones in the '90s you know and now we're looking at drones coming in all different types of drones it's like he for airport over over Mar op at the time so we were down to our Bare Bones and then we got the order to that we would be trying to join up with a sist battalion on the aof coast who were fighting the Russians there and it was about 130 kilometers away and really I thought that was quite ambitious at the time so around the sort 11 or the 12th of April we got the do to go unfortunately it was canceled the first time because there were Russian bmps on the road going out by this time they were 30 50 meters away from us it's like I describe it as the the end scenes of Saving Private R and they were literally taking up positions we forly held they encircled us I managed to get a call out to my wife and say it's all over and she was saying giving me briefs and shouting me down the phone to survive and keep alive tell the boys they're doing a great job something totally unexpected really I was expecting them to break down but while we were trying to break out the next day in the early hours of the morning we were ambushed I got split up from my patoon there were casualties everywhere and I was captured about 2 hours outside of marry opal by DPR forces I'd already planned to to start an escape in evasion and when it all went wrong and then I I'd made a decision to to then try and escape to Friendly lines which was about 200 250 kilomet which is quite tough going at my age plus we' not add any food or water and start an escape Innovation back to Friendly lives when we all got split on the Ambush Sean could you tell us a little bit about that moment of capture if you would if that's okay with you what what actually happens what could you talk us through it well on Sear training I'm always thought that the initial capture is the hardest and the most dangerous because it's so unpredictable I'd already started to plan cut down my equipment realized what I wanted to take with me try and get a footh hold on my location but then I started to realize quite quickly there was so many drones the best times I could travel was early morning and Dusk and it was very hard the day we tried to escape was the best day we'd had all year there was blue skies Sun was shining I mean the day before it was foggy it was a really good day to go so already the luck was not on our Sid and then literally when I was moving through buildings trying to avoid the the drones and being seen I'd come to a quest of a hill in a village that walked pretty much 30 m away from a DPR forward observation unit I mean we're trying to avoid and get through that first line but every Soldier takes up their positions in dead ground and strip woods and and it's very hard to do when you haven't got a drone and and I'd already planned that if I was captured i' Tred to surrender to a Russian officer which really didn't work out for me and also when I was captured they they gave me a warning shot initially which I'm only assuming they they knew I was coming in somebody had see me and then I had to make a decision to ditch my phone and ditch stuff before I I had to do the the dreaded walk 30 m i was severely outnumbered in broad daylight and if IID tried to to run away down the hill I think they would have just cut me down so I think I made the right decision I certainly don't have any regrets about it there was not much I could really do and then my whole War changed I had to fight in another way and when I went to the position where they were were quite well dug in I wasn't captured I was they mugged they started to take all my valuables and my belt and what I realized then was I had a lot of gear on that most ukrainians couldn't afford so it was very I wasn't going to get through any filtration process because of the Russian I do know because I'd learned Russian in my five years not Ukrainian because I lived in marota so the Russian I did know wasn't good enough to get me through tactical questioning because I speak Russian with a cotney accent so they're going to be very quick to pick up on that straight away so I knew I would be of someone of interest and unfortunately they took me to a company location where I was basically handed from the DPR to Russian regulars and how do I know they were Russian regulars because they had four Russian fatigues they had all the Gucci gear gangster grips Pags Optics chem lights and the DPR forces are just mismatched really bad with three different types of Cam camouflage they don't look like soldiers as such but these guys were the real deal which and then I thought was spats NS and they proceeded to torture me straight away uh stabbed me the leg to stop me from running anywhere uh and then took me back to what I call a tied room where the floor was all tiled with a drainage hole in the middle strapped me to a chair and then before said anything they electrocuted me with what I think as a tapet because they kept referring to you want to phone home which a tapic for those that don't know is a field phone that could be easily adapted as a torture weapon which is portable they're everywhere and I was electrocuted three or four times in the chair beaten up at one point I was made to stand up and then cattle pred uh I was pistol whipped I had a mock execution um and then I was taken to uh a black site but I had an understanding of Russian nobody really asked me about um whether I could speak Russian but I OD that I was going to be moved on so as long as I didn't die of a heart attack uh then uh really I knew I was being moved on somewhere else and my trading some sort of 30 years ago had paired me well it hadn't really moved on from there the traded appear so my aim was to get through that first initial capture without scratch and unfortunately already I was stabbed in the leg I couldn't escape anywhere I couldn't move anywhere and then one electric shock just completely whacks you you really just dribble in and your spasms you still shaking afterwards the next day my legs had inflated I was bleeding from my capillaries and then I was taken to a black site uh in detet where I was then given the good cop bad cop so I was then taken there where they stitched up the wounds they just stabbed me in the leg with told me that I would find discomfort at this place um and it was only later when we got our indictments that I realized that I was captured on the 13th of April but the indictments ran from the 18th to the 19th of April so for that time I was just beaten electrocuted again on the year made to fill out an autobiography of my time in Ukraine and then because I I'd not provided all the information they wanted they said they were going to starve me and for 60 days I just had a small piece of bread every morning and that was it the water was different shades of yellow with parasites in and you would get bread at 10:00 in most mornings but if you were pulled out for propaganda just before you got your bread you didn't eat for the day and I had three or four days at those early stages I was being brought out for propaganda not eating and then being forced to sit in front of people like Russia Today RT and journalist verman kazarov who's quite frequently on it who I wasn't given a choice I was just hooded in the black site taken to another location and when the hood was lifted off he was there and of course my trainer did seawood told me to exploit those situations because we weren't being fed I'd already done seven weeks fighting in Mar opal so I was already emaciated anyway so now we weren't being fed I had to to Really exploit that situation and my aim with them was just to get on TV to tell the world I was there but quite quickly they were very well organized in the fact that they made it very clear to us that we would ring home once we were on the books and then and do video calls to Boris Johnson and as long as we cooperated then we wouldn't have it too bad but the very people that were actually doing the torturing and the interrogations were behind the camera so the journalist would be just laughing and joking with with the the people that were actually beating us and electrocuting us which is very hard to deal with I mean it's dehumanizing and you know takes everything away from you all your humanity is ripped from you but for me the training really helped me because it give me Focus if I could just get my face out there even if it went onto Russian TV I would know somebody would be watching that and then uh they would know that I'm alive which was really my main aim Sean thank you so much for sharing all of that how could you tell us a little bit more about how you dealt with this mentally how how did you get through this absolutely abhorent treatment what kind of techniques were you using what were you thinking of again you got to remember I was with guys like ngos who didn't know any Russian who who didn't really understand the military or or the the predicament they were in so for me I've had to become a bit of a sounding board for people and I couldn't talk to people about my background because they would inter if you went off the propaganda they would interrogate the guys in yourself to see what you told them so you couldn't really talk to anybody in your cell about what you'd done and where you'd been but I knew quite early that I was probably one of the only guys that had any training in this especially I could anticipate situation better because I could understand Russian I I sort of knew what was going on and I would try and get Snippets from news bulletins radios noce sports watches time trying to keep track of time and then that became my obsession really that kept me busy so I was able to then teach other guys bits of Russian learn out learn key wordss I was doing virtual shopping trips because for a large amount of time I was in an isolation cell 1 M by 3 m cell with a buzzer that wakes you up in the morning and the buzzer that puts you to bed no window the lights on 24 hours a day and the under unpredictability of the guards was a massive problem because they would hit you on the elbows the knees the ankles they would beat you out which told me we had some sort of value so I was always keeping hope in mind that we would have some sort of value that we would be exchanged and all I had to do was keep going and ly my community I'm married I thought about my wife quite a bit and my home don't get me wrong everybody goes through ups and downs but we we sort of called it the weight between us all when I eventually met the rest of the guys where we were changed prison just before the trial we sort of nicknamed it the way and we knew what everybody was feeling because even the most motivated person so you know at some point they were Rock Bottom so we clubbed together as a group and kept the Gallow schor going we made chest Boards out of bottled so they would give us nothing so we had to just make our own entertainment essentially and my obsession just became about what's going to happen next and try and anticipate the next move by the Russians uh because most of the time we were just trying to get through the day where can we get food where can we get the least resistance or you know how can we get through without getting beaten up because if you get a broken leg in captivity or in the prison the Chan is though you're not going to get that fixed the medical side of it is is very bad so it wasn't very good and we didn't we can't just leave the prison and go to a hospital so you just have to get through every day without getting injured really Sean tell us about the trial and how did you get out what happened well there's a misconception that that torture they use is really to get truth through pay uh and that's proven not to work and it doesn't really work but the Russians don't use torture in that way they use it because they want you to say I am guilty at the trial and I learned that afterwards and and they're very that's very eff effective way to get you to say I am guilty by giving you electric shock starving you beating you senseless so they're very good at that and that was really all they wanted me to do because they never really asked me the Tactical question that I thought would come it was you know they didn't really push the fact and ask me if I knew Russian and really it was about the trial and the the show and that was pretty evident when we pleaded not guilty and they stopped the trial and they stopped the trial because we had a 50-minute because they didn't like that we were saying not guilty we had a defense lawyer that that was initially given to me they said would give to me never actually came and took a statement from me and by the time we got to the trial it had changed to a woman so you know nobody had actually come to the prison to take a statement and they got us to ring home as well which was really interesting because my mom was telling me that they had actually provided the documents of our contracts and our res to the Russian embassies and what became apparent was that the Russians just ignored it and we weren't mercenaries you know I got a legal residency I wasn't from outside Ukraine I lived in Ukraine I've been living there paying my taxes they lived there since 200 married to Ukrainian they knew that so when we actually did go to trial it was just a sham trial and within two days we knew what was coming they were made us plead guilty and the Very people that guarded Us in the courtroom were the people at the black side and the other personis who gave us the electric shocks and the beatings so you could keep going down that route but we were made to sign do I mean one of the things I'm talk to see is not sign a document in a foreign language you tried doing that for several months and see if you keep your fingers it just doesn't work so these were the the daily things we were going through and we were made to say guilty at the end of two or three days we were then Tri and given the death penalty which was just a show in the courts you know and that's how we ended up after the trial sort of advising the next group that have just been tried in Russia actually the next group who who were going to go through don't plead uh guilty plead not guilty regardless and started to formulate a plan like a great escape we started to fight back then we started to get some confidence when we changed prison and then what happened then so you you plead not guilty they stopped the trial and that leads eventually to your exchange tell us about that well in September late September the queen had died I mean it's around the 18th of of September sort of around that date and they came in and told us that the queen was dead and really we were we still had fighting spirit I mean it was great to see that John Harden who who was a Brit that was capturing me said God Sav the king and he's a a labor supporter socialist and an anti- royalist and when I asked him about it after he just said I hate Russians more so that we still had that fight and we had a you know everybody else a Swede a Moroccan two Americans three or four Brits the ukrainians saying God Save the King and and it was really good to see we still had that fight and around the end of September we were going on a long journey and one of the guards alluded to the fact that we could be exchanged and then once we were exchanged once we started from our prison in mifka prison deid nost s 97 uh in Den we then went on a journey 13-hour Journey uh from something like 3:00 in the afternoon till 9:00 next morning into rosoff Dawn but our excitement at being exchanged was really shortlived because it was the worst Journey ever we were beaten so badly put in a a caterpillar like stress position with a guy in front of you and then seated onto the back of the so you're Linked In to several other guys who were Linked In by arms and tied and we weren't allowed to move for until 9:00 the next morning on the you're sitting on a metal floor of a truck uh being beaten and we weren't allowed water we weren't allowed food but when we got to rosor done we really was just confronted by an elderly guy in his pa uh and lots of saudy looking guys and really didn't know what was happening but when we took out our hoods three of the guys had lost Footwear in the scuffles all like people were bleeding at American he looked like hom sson tying tied his hoodie too tight Hood too tight to his head and it inflated his eyes he couldn't see and so they then told us we were going onto a plane which then we thought well we're going to give it exchanged it's great uh but we didn't really know until they shut the doors of the plane and said once we get out of Russian airspace then you'll be free but which so we just broke down and there was a really emotional time and while I was coming out of a toilet with some new clothes after a medical uh this old guy was talking to me and said where are you from and I said London I said where are you from and he said London I said you don't have look like Roman Abramovich he said I am Roman Abramovich for then we just you know it was just shock what are you do it here and he explained to us what he was doing there and how he was using the proess to sail at Chelsea to help the victims of war and he was a part of our exchange along with the prince of Saudi Arabia and we really had no news when we did eventually get home to the UK so because we'd had sever several months of just no news at all so it was really about catching up with everything that had happened since the the day of the full scale invasion you know i' sit through videos of watching the Queen's funeral and catching up on life my auntie had died uh while I was in captivity which was was terrible and I was trying to find out what happened to all the other guys we're still trying to find out what's happened to people sort of two years on and uh you know it was an emotional time and that's where I come across your back catalog of podcasts to be fair and uh you know thank you for for doing that because I was just listening to your podcast an avid listener for two weeks walking around eating dinner going back upstairs with my headphones on and just loing myself away listening to everything that that had happened Sean thank you so much for sharing all of that and I do hope we yeah we were accurate and useful as you were catching up may I ask what were some of the first things you did when you knew you were free when you were on home soil um what did it feel like when you knew that you wouldn't you never have to go back to where you were well my first thought was my friends and who was alive and who was dead we just kept rigging around my commander got released from me I didn't know and and first thing you do is try and find friends and family uh and people you know did they get out and you're really catching up with life I'm also you know keeping contact with a guys I was captive with who on telegram Channel and we talk regularly and make sure we're all okay my wife and my mom and my family had a story too my friend just got released three weeks ago and he had he's had a two-year block out of any information so he's really catching up with life after captivity and we're helping them now we help people that visit the hospital take them cigarettes and food and vitamins and we help people that are coming out when they first stopped to the hospital and we're constantly looking for uh a family still because 60% of my wedding pictures from 4 years ago 60% of the people in those pictures are either captured or killed and that's just us we I use that as like a a reference really to give you some sort of context of the families that are going through this right now and we're still going through it so it's not over for us we have to deal with this every day Sean can I ask before I hand over to Dom Francis and Roland who I'm sure will have questions as well you've spoken in quite a matter of fact way about the extraordinary violence done to you and to your friends could you talk to us a little bit about the process of dealing with that and rebuilding after that now you are free I do because I've talked about it a lot of times I've written a book about it's very therapeutic to talk about it and now I want to tell the world what Russia is really like and the recent events with crocus the massacre in Russia has really highlighted everything I wrote about and everything I talk about I mean it's just I think it's been hidden for so long they don't talk about it and now it's right out in the open I mean it's in your face what they've done to the the guys they've just captured so now I want to talk about actually what they don't use really torture for truth finding what they do is they want you to say guilty at to trial and things that people probably wouldn't know the use of torture how they use it propaganda uh you know RT is a big one I'm pushing at the moment they're complicit in our mental torture the fact that you don't get a chance to even to even say no I don't want to talk to them or you just get forced into it otherwise you're going to lose a finger or be beaten or electrocuted they can stop your food completely so there's nothing you can really do about that so so now I I sort of talk about it because it's a way of of of dealing with it I mean we had good Gallow humor I mean it sounds really weird but the good British humor we had amongst ourselves I don't know what I'd be like if I'd have done it on my own I was with a good group of people who all chipped in and all you know looked after each other and that's part of coming out part of SE part of training I've had and 50 years old I'm a better understanding of people I did 13 years in the military nine years nine wats I have a better understanding of of people I had a better understanding that situation you can imagine a 19y old coming out with some of the guys I sered with this was their first operations they're never going to come back from this so it's about supporting them and anybody who's captured really I I teach now I talk to people and say if if you are eventually get released you have to hold your head up high and say I did a good job well we did a good job Commander Crow didn't go down we held Mar as long as we could all right the escaping evasion go to plan but you sort of deal with each bit as it as it goes on I mean I I deal with Mar opal because I'm just lucky to survive that with the onslaught of of the bombs and artillery and mortars and the Russian air superiority and the fighting on the streets I'm lucky to us like that when many didn't so that for me was really hard work the actual catchup had some sort of knowledge off and now I pass on that knowledge to other people Sean hi it's Dom here thanks so much for joining us today I don't really know how to respond to it it's hugely powerful stuff and I've spoken before about how the American prison of War association their motto as you probably know is return with honor they say everyone has their limits everyone's going to talk at some point you can't put up with everything for the whole time but the bottom line is don't betray yourself or your friends your family so return with honor and you seem to embody that if I if I could say when I was in the military I was a conduct after capture instructor used to train resistance to interrogation and what have you I've never I've only been on the opposite side of it in exercise terms never been through what you have but many of the things you said in as we were just chatting absolutely leapt straight out of me from the from the training I not only received but then I that I then passed on to others and you mentioned yourself that training helped I just wonder if you could talk us through the where that training proved most supportive for you in particular how you control your mind when you were being beaten and you had no certainty of the future how did you control your mind and resist the temptation to allow the darker thoughts to to dominate you uh it's quite a good question because I talk about what led me to come to Ukraine in the first place so already referred to things like the black cloud and I was at a I'd say a midlife crisis but I'd probably had four before I come to Ukraine to be fair for me I was never at that point of of depression I was before I come to Ukraine which sounds really weird I had a bar that was set that I knew I didn't want to go to ever again and I don't think at any point through the hole of mar opal or my capture did I ever hit that but I felt it's while I didn't have any control I felt I had some because I understood that if I were going to get catched this first bit it's going to be a nightmare uh and also I can anticipate I do the culture out there I do what to say when to say it if ID have said I'd worked with National Guard or AZ off on the front line I'd probably been shot on the spot but I knew if I could just get through that first bit and and get them on the back foot Tell them I've got some of the interest and then have to deal with each stage as it comes i' done C forb as well so i' done that trading for me it was about what good is that training if I just give up and then you like I touched on earlier you're with NGS people have had no military you find yourself being a leader amongst a group and you don't really want to stand out as being a leader when you're captured so so it's about helping support delay information you're always going to talk like you said it's about being a bit smart and clever with it I didn't have a cover story where I but one was s manufactured for me and I was always taught and say to keep it as close to the truth as you Poss possibly can you have a cover story well for me mine was I was an old man and married Ukrainian and lived in Ukraine for love and you know this was a way to get my citizenship but that sort of was manufactured for me and I stuck with that I certainly didn't go they didn't push me on my previous background in the British military uh not really it wasn't as bad as they thought it would be and then there's small victories that we always go on about could be anything from just getting a spring of water cigarette by the end of it I didn't have a choice over was going to the media but I would certainly use it as an option to get food or a burger or a cigarette or some water that was clean uh and an opportunity to get what I needed to survive and and that's really what my time was about what kept me occupied was you know trying to survive and unfortunately we lost Paul Yuri who was in our prison and in the next sell to us because he was not understanding of those sorts of things had not done wasn't military train didn't understand Russian and unfortunately got beaten so badly he died of his injuries two days later which again you have to pick yourself up from that and keep going and in in mka the ukrainians were literally uh had got 4 kilometers from us fired into the prison with artillery we thought we were going to get liberated long before we were we we were going to be exchanged so we're working out if they do blow a hole in a wall how we going to get out who we're going to take which routs are we I mean it was constantly ongoing and then we'd have times where we'd have boredom 23 hours a day in a Cell uh which then you you brain and mind just wanders so you have to identify and be able to to identify those dark times and then that's why we we named it the weight because if if it was getting on top of you we could say look I've got the weight today and people would just start cracking jokes or trying to get you uh thinking of home and what are you going to do or making recipes what we're going to one guy wanted to have chicken breast fill it with cheese coat it in breadcrumbs and call it the baseball the biggest chicken nugget you'd ever seen I mean we just had junk talk to keep us going and pick us our spirits up so there isn't even the motivated person is up and down so it's about supporting everybody else and picking them up when they are at that point when they're down you know thanks Sean just one more for me because I know the other guys want to jump in um when you talk about your sear training so survive evade resist Escape training practical applications or practical you can do as well as an overarching sort of psychological approach to it I mean we from the instructor side and the training we were always we were taught to try and separate the self-induced pressures from the system induced pressures so self- induced all those dark thoughts that you can't help invading your head and then the system induced which is what the the people can do to you which did you feel was the harder to put up with self-induced presses obviously it did get a bit easier for me after the trial what could you do to someone when you've sentenced them to death it's the Russians knew that too so they just left me to sell for two and a half months and that became all about self- reduced purses and some days you just talk yourself into a stuper in your head so you have to really keep keep on top of that with giving yourself task and they might be the most medial task like cleaning the the only toilet we've got there a right that resembles the one from train spotted it's Dreadful but you know just giving yourself a task you have to keep motivating yourself to identify that weight and that black cloud that comes over and stop yourself Talking yourself into a stuper because those were the hardest months August to September once we'd had the trial we didn't know if we were going to get an appeals process or uh we could be just pulled out that afternoon and be shot which like later Learned was being talked about after my exchange I saw the what was being said so those days were pretty dark and everybody knew that but it was about identifying that and like I said I don't know what I'd have been like on my own but I had good guys that were with me and it was definitely those especially the last parts of my captivity were definitely the self- reduced pressures that were far worse than anything else Sean it's Francis here thank you so much for your time today I think it's fair to say that you are a unique witness to some of the things you've described today and what I mean by that is that you're somebody who is able to speak about them not only because you survived but also because of course you're now in the position to be able to speak about the many people in the military that we talk to are not able to be as candid as you can be so my question really is a bit broader than your experience it's your perspective on the differences between the Ukrainian armed forces and the Russians we hear a lot about the Ukrainian armed forces are are better in terms of how they approach fighting that they're more adaptive and Innovative I'm very interested in your perspective on that versus what you've seen and experienced and also I want to ask in relation to that what do you think Ukraine needs now in order to fight the next phase of this war from somebody who is actually fought it up close thank you I mean I can talk from personal experience as I said to you before the initial technology change Senate became more advanced the drones capability became more advanced quite early on so I was able to see I don't know as a soldier these days I mean I'm reti I don't know as a soldier these days You're got to deal with that I mean as I said to you they were flying in to our compound 10et above the ground looking in for Windows and Doors ready probably I assume calling mortars and artillery I'd seen Russians come down the same stripw to our position with eight guys and then 20 guys and then 30 guys and we would let them get 30 meters and just light them up as they came in with no Baseline support basic no tactics involved which I can only assume which at the time I thought they were DPR because they were just Dreadful but they were willing to sacrifice waves of people then in Mar opal but there are some good units because my friends in marot po since been released told me they were translation wise he just said they had weapons that didn't make noises and he said they were just uh coming in and they had good tactics so I mean they are there but we were hitting in Mar opal varied C capabilities because even when the motor crew started to and I was thinking that's it with done for the motor Crews they're going to tear us apart in this position they were quite happy to spend two or three days firing mortars at the same position on the bank without even bracketing and without even pushing into our compounds and I thinking the second day I was thinking there must be trying to find us Target us and fire into our position but no it would land in the same spot in front of our embankment in a safe spot which wouldn't be into our compound they would do that for quite a long period of time they were solely Reliant in Mar on air power artillery mobile artillery and it was just ping us daily until the point where we just had nobody left I mean one of the battalions had gone down from 600 to 140 very very quickly and as I said you 60% arud was in the hospital so it we were just getting smashed and there was nothing we could really do about it apart from just get through each day and then the drones would come in and just pick you off in the trenches and we had good command control it didn't stop they were very good at telling us and warning us off when the Russians would be coming in and how many they expected to come in which position of where they would be coming in so up until the to decentralize command I think the success we had in Mar opal holding out over against overwhelming off was because of that fact that we' starting to move away from that centralized command and there was more trusted ncos uh to be able to get the job done which when I first got there it just wasn't really the case there had no value in in ncos the two Commander would do everything so uh but now as the war's gone two years later that training stopped and you're now seeing the Ukrainian military move back to that centralized command and the way that they used to fight which is quite sad and they're mobilizing people that were you know washing cars or you know six months earlier so so so it's now become about training troops so the training is essential you speak to Danny at tent I know he's a friend of mine so the training is essential at every level here and also you know the weapons we need the ammunition is you know we had a a shell shortage before now we're on a shell hunger we've known about Le two or three months and some of the stories I hear on the front are just awful so we need those artillery shells and a lot of them very very quickly well thank you so much Sean just one very quick question from Roland and then we'll go to our final thoughts Roland olant hello Sean thanks for all this I mean I've listened absolutely fascinated I was just wondering if you could tell us a bit more as far as you know about the other people from your Marine unit that was surrounded and captured in marup is you know you see seem to say that some people are still out account accounted for are people still in captivity what's your understanding of what happened to everybody else yeah not a handful of us have been exchanged for my unit most of my Pell is still captivity we've also got friends and colleagues and family I mean the Russians were taking in my cell was a a train driver from Mar opal who was a civilian he was 19 so you know these they were torturing everybody it wasn't specifically us they were really torturing everybody who who could have a link to Ukraine and I talked to him and he was quite released I don't know where he went our community the men in our community some of them are still in captivity my neighbor my wife's friends so it's very difficult for us at the moment because we're still scanning the news I was going to you know if you ask me to do a final thought I was going to talk about that at one of the situations for for my final thought but yeah we still constantly look at the news every day and hope that you know I'm in dialogue with families uh we we have a a group chat where we we we try to to to keep everybody up to date with information a lot of the guys don't get to write home some guys have it's one of those things so you know it's very difficult for us at the moment there are many families here are going through the same situation uh so we just have to hope and everybody gets their hopes up when there's a prison exchange and then you're trying to pick people up and some people are lucky and and joy which is really nice and like my friend two or three weeks ago I writing a book M mola he was exchanged two or three weeks ago and we're just trying to help him get back into normal life I mean he's not got a house anymore or car his family have managed to get out of mar opal but you know he's having to start his life again and those people are going to need a lot of support thank you Roland Dom and Francis for your questions thank you so much so much Shan for answering all of our questions let's go to our final thoughts Sean we'll come to you at last so Roland do Dom would you like to go first I'm just referring back to what I was mentioning earlier really I really think that going forward into this year this spring carv is really is something to look at it's vulnerable I was there in the first days of the war and I remember the the sense of uncertainty when the Russians tried to surround it last time so I'm just kind of making a mental note of that to to to keep my attention on that in the coming months and I'll leave it there thank you very much Roland Dominic yeah thanks David I mean it seems a bit trit now to have a say what I was going to say for final thoughts I'll just leave it as have a look at what lucenko is up today at the Salk Gap making some noises that will be good for for Putin he's desperate to get back in his good books having dropped the ball Yesterday by saying the crocus attackers tried to get into bellarus rather than go straight for Ukraine so have a look at what lenko is up to but actually what I wanted to say is Shan thank you so much for joining us today thank you for your words I think not putting words in your mouth at all but it sounds as if the weight is getting a little bit easier for for you to bear I don't think you'll ever get rid of it but hopefully it's now just a pebble that you can kick around at your leisure but Sean thank you so much for joining us today thank you Roland thank you Dom Francis sternley thanks David I just want to Echo what Dom said there some of the most extraordinary testimony I think we've heard on two years of the podcast thank you very much Sean and I for one will certainly be reading your book and we add a link in the show notes to it because I think there's a lot more to to unpack it' be great to have you on in a future episode just very very briefly uh we've talked about war crimes today we did a piece yesterday in the Telegraph by Jeffrey Robertson president of the un's war crimes Court in Sierra Leone and author of a new book called The Trial of Vladimir Putin and he makes an argument very persuasively I think in this article which again will'll add in the show notes that Putin can and should be tried in abenia so even though it's not looking likely in the short term there will be a nurenberg trial he argues very persuasively that there are reasons why there should be a public trial of what is going on so I will Point listeners to that and just the other thing Monday's episode will be for me looking at a very specific cultural issue in Ukraine and the Ukrainian Institute of London is hosting a documentary season at the moment called people power showcasing four documentary films dedicated to Modern Ukrainian Society We'll add a link in the show notes to that even if you're not in London it links and describes some very very interesting documentaries including one called iron butterflies about the impact of Malaysia Airlines flight mh17 and how that was really a warning of the direction of travel looked Ukraine and Russia were going in and unfortunately it was one that it was ignored but as say some links there will add in the show notes and thank you again Sean for your fascinating testimony thank you Francis Sean would you like the very final words yeah I'm going to talk about hope as a military man it's hard to put hope and luck you would put that in any plan as Dom says before um but there's so many things I'd like to say my Foreigner thought but I think I would like to raise new points of continuing to have hope is that it's really being tested by now for us in Ukraine and the awareness of those that are still captured and held in captivity by Russia especially those of my friends whose fate is still unknown after 2 years and I still parted from their family members their children and loved ones I talk regularly with one such mom of a soldier I was caped with we comfort each other on his future and hopeful exchange like many other families we text each other when we hear the exchange is taking place and then we're picking each other up once we hear isn't on the list when you've had every shred of decency ripped from you like when you're in captivity sometimes hope is all you have left and it is an underrated feeling because hope gives you something to fight for really hope helps you remain positive and hope helps keep the faith hope gives you a reason not to give up and hope can lead you to do amazing things we can't ever lose hope in Ukrainian Victory and that all the prisoners will eventually be returned uh we can never lose hope where we will be as a country and people if we don't have it hope and thank you for having me on Sean Pinner thank you so much for your time Ukraine the latest is an original podcast from the telegraph to stay on top of all of our Ukraine news analysis and dispatches from the 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