[MUSIC] so, the first question why did you become
an entrepreneur? And, is, anybody can, you know, go first,
G? >> well, I started my entrepreneur
journey, you know, unconventionally, I actually dropped out of high school when I
was 16, so. Actually what caused me to become an entrepreneur was a little bit different,
my family was going through, little
hardships, I was trying to go ahead and help out. And you know, basically, try it out my
first job, and only job was, trying out for McDonald's
and, they rejected me. So, I realized hey there's something
called the internet and looked at, what was going on,
I mean just the, the euphoria of it and fell in love with the whole online
advertising space. And you know, the, the beauty of the
internet is, you don't need the the stigma that's attached to kinda
business as it was probably 50 years ago. I mean, you can be a 16 year old in a
bedroom, and start a business that two years later,
you can sell for $40. . And you know, that's probably, was
impossible 50 years ago, so, you know, partly, you know,
survival helped me become an entrepreneur, but on
top of that, I love building stuff out of
nothing. So, I'm passionate about it, as long as
you have it in your DNA, you can be
successful. >> [SOUND] So I, I became an entrepreneur
pretty much out of necessity. I had been working at a a public
accounting firm. Been passed over for partnership two times
and I could see that the third was coming up. And the only reason was because I was a
woman. And at this point, there were zero women
in the partnership across the world. And that just wasn't okay with me. But I had butted my head up against the
glass ceiling enough times. And at this point, had enough visibility
across the the whole firm to, to know that I wasn't personally going to be able to
change this organization from the inside. So I left and turned around, and offered
them my services For basically the exact same thing that they would have had if I
had made partner within their structure. And asked them to pay me three times as much They agreed [LAUGH] which was the
amazing part. Provided me a an office and let me keep my
administrative assistant. For the first six months. And I was totally billable from the very,
very first day. And that grew into a an organisation that
had employees across the world. And and then, you know, kinda, once you
get the bug, it just kind of starts taking
over. And so it's sorta, like, well, you know,
there's a problem here. I can solve it by doing this. And, there's a problem there, and I can go
solve that by doing this. And I love it. >> [COUGH] Yeah. So I, I guess the, the best answer that I can give is that I didn't decide to become
an entrepreneur. And, and I mean that in two ways. One, I'm actually not quite an
entrepreneur. I don't really deserve to be called an entrepreneur, unlike all the other people
up here. I've always sort of helped entrepreneurs. I joined the LinkedIn and Facebook before
we raised venture funding. Before the companies were built and so on. So, very, very, very early in those
companies. >> You're a risk-taker. >> But, but, surely [LAUGH] but always
sorta liked helping entrepreneurs. They used to call that being a venture capitalist, but that means something else
today, I guess. The so the second way in, in which I mean that, and, and just really amplifying what
Carol just spoke to is, I, I think a lot of the time people
who end up being entrepreneurs, don't really
exactly decide to become entrepreneurs. It's not like being in an accountant,
where you say, you know, I'm gonna go out and. You know, take a test, and get a license,
and go become an accountant. You know, I'm gonna go, to entrepreneur
school, and become an entrepreneur. It's a little bit more organic than that,
a lot of the time, in my experience. And it's something that almost happens to
you, and you get the bug for, like you said, usually because,
something's broken that you wanna fix. Or because something doesn't exist, that
you think should exist. And, you just decide, you know, I'm gonna
do it. And that can take lots of different forms. But I think it's a more organic process than a lot of other, so-called career
paths. [SOUND]. >> I actually never aspired to become an
entrepreneur. I was working as a research scientist, and I thoroughly enjoyed that so I never
aspired to be an entrepreneur, working as a
manager, or working in business in, in the first place, but the thing that made an impact
on me was that, I was actually reading the specification for Netscape 2.0 some
year, some years ago, somebody may remember the
browser Netscape. But I was reading the whole night, and I
was taken by this, and it had an enormous
impact on me. So the next day, I actually quit my job,
and started my first company. And I had no idea what kind of business
idea I was going to pursue I really didn't have so much of a plan, but it was more this incredible passion I felt
for internet. I could just sense that internet was going
to be really, really big. And I felt there was too big thing too big
of a thing to walk away from, so that's
actually why I started. >> So in a life of an entrepreneur, now,
you've been all living the life of an entrepreneur
what is it you like about the life of an entrepreneur,
and what is it you don't like about the, the the path
that you have chosen? Anybody, or you can just go to in any
order you like. >> Yeah. I guess what I love about it is yeah. It's, probably goes both ways. I love creating something out of nothing,
and seeing that impact, it's almost like you can see
it nurture. And you can see the positive result as
quick as you can, kinda make it, make it happen. The down side of being an entrepreneur is
that it's not as you know, posh and stable as a typical company where you have enough
things in place, where you don't have to worry about
the revenue. You don't have to worry about
profitability. You don't have to worry about the
individual things, so you end up losing a few hairs almost every
day. So, part of being in a startup is you
know, you have your good days and you have your bad days, but, you know, you
fall down and you get up, and you keep going. >> So in the corporate world, I used to be
called a workaholic. and, I'm a pretty passionate person and
when I'm on a project, or working on trying to get
something done. I pretty much stay focused on, on that. And and that used to be considered a bad
thing. And when I became an entrepreneur,
everybody just started saying, oh, but she, she's an
entrepreneur, it's okay. And and, and so, I suddenly became
socially acceptable, about the fact that my work life and my personal
life had a very, very blurry line. >> Borderline if you're lucky. >> Yeah. [LAUGH] Yeah you know, the best thing
about it is that it's amazing, and
all-consuming, and exhausting, and crazy, and the worse thing about it is that it's amazing, and all-consuming, and
exhausting, and crazy. it, it will become your life, if you're lucky, and you're, and you're doing it
well. And there's trade offs in that, but you
know, I feel like the last ten or so years of my life are more or less
this vortex of non-stop startupness. [SOUND] Which is great. I wouldn't trade it for anything. But it's it, it, I think it almost becomes
an either/or decision, at some point, if you're lucky enough to
be facing that problem. >> I think for me the biggest is, the
dream, you know, that you you can allow yourself
to dream. You can allow yourself to, you know,
you're going to create a company, you're going to have an impact on
the world, you know. And it's, at the end of the day, it's
really all up to you. I think of that as a fantastic luxury,
that there's really no limitation. It's all about your capability, your
creativity, and your hard work. That end, at the end of the day,
hopefully, you will be able to accomplish what you set
out to do. >> But, you know, one of the, things that
all of us are, are talking about is that we're doing it because we have some
passion about what, what we're doing, and with whom
we're doing it. and, you know, one of the things that
you'll hear people give you advice about, over and over again, is
stay focused on your passion. And the reason is, if you hate what you're
doing, you won't be successful and, as an entrepreneur, because, it requires too much extra
effort. And you have to really love it. To to make the sacrifices that are
necessary to be successful. >> You also have be a little bit crazy to
enjoy the ups and downs of it. Because, there's a lot of ups, there's a
lot of downs along the way. But, I think [CROSSTALK]. >> Spikes. >> Yeah. And I think the other key thing is like,
if you look at just how the business world works, you
know, big companies get to run it. But, in the startup, you get to change it. And, you know, if you look at you know,
companies like Facebook, Twitter, and just social media in general, that's
really transpired the way we communicate. Big companies are now following onto that,
so I think that's the, the highlight of being an
entrepreneur, is when you can make that big of an impact, and if you're
part of that genre, you can really go ahead and
see why, you know. You're, you're passionate about it, you're
making a change and, and it's, and it's a lot of fun. >> I think I [INAUDIBLE] had [INAUDIBLE]
have a phenomenal luxury. When you're an entrepreneur. And that is to pick the people you are
actually are going to work with. And I think that really makes a big
difference. You know, one thing to have this
objective, or dream or desire. But you can actually work with people that
are phenomenally inspiring. People that are fun to hang out with. People that you really care about. And regardless of where you want to go
with the company, regardless what you want to accomplish,
just a luxury that everyday you will go to work, you working with
people that fundamentally are people that you like, and you want to
hang out with. I think that is a phenomenal perk, if you
can put it that way. >> So that's a, it's a great segue, to the
next question and so we have some, we have both, pure
entrepreneurs, and we have some venture capital
experience here. So, you can answer it from either
perspective. Do you think it's better, in the
construction of an entrepreneurial company, to partner, to have a partner,
with someone that maybe. Has complimentary skills, or vision, or
whatever, or is it better to go it alone? >> Well, I think it, it, it's a frustrating answer, but it depends on the
person. [LAUGH] And, and, and you know,, it, it's
there are people who are absolutely solo creators who have a very individual
drive, and that's the way they function. There are people who, you know, thrive and
need a partner. I think, you know, the funny thing about,
about startups is, this whole thing is driven by
exceptions. You know, you, you can, you can create any
rule you like, you know, oh, you know, startups where the
husband and wife are the founders. That always fails, well except for Cisco,
you know, startups where, I mean, it, it, no
matter what you pick, there are always
exceptions, so, it's very hard to generalize out of those
things. You know, I been involved in companies where there were kind of co-founders, and
a founder and co-founders, and just a
founder, and I think all of them can work. The most important thing, if you're
starting something yourself, I think it's to ask yourself, what's the
right thing for you? And just like with a lot of the other
things that we've been talking about, it should really be a sort
of organic process, I think. If you sit down and say, all right, today
I need to go out and find myself a co-founder,
that's probably not gonna succeed. >> I think it's all about, you know, it's
a couple of ways to look at it. Part of it is, finding your dream team,
and, you know, you, they're all your co-founding employees,
and that's really essential, for any startup. Your first five people, make it or break it, to actually seeing if it's gonna
survive. Your first 20 people, make it to see if
it's gonna be a large company or not. And, you know, when you get to that
standpoint, you gotta go ahead and realize who your right partner's gonna be, and partner can be beyond co-founder, it's
really VC. And you know? Just a short plug for Stanford. Stanford's actually an investor in
gWallet. So, I think we got You know? We picked the right investors, for the
right reasons. And partly, it's because you know? They can actually add a tremendous value. I mean, if you look at my first company, I
actually took no funding whatsoever. I bootstrapped it. Mainly because nobody wanted to fund me. I was 16, 17, 18. So, no offense on that. But you know, what I learned on the second
time around, is when I actually raised venture capital is it,
it matured me as an entrepreneur. It actually brought a different
perspective on how to grow a large company, how to actually sustain certain things that
you do, international expansion and so forth,
and. Picking that right partner is key, because
if you pick the wrong one, you know, VCs can either add a lot of value, or they can
take a lot of value out. So, that's the caveat, no offense, but
that's that's the big formula into finding the, the right
magic in that partnership. >> Yep. So, you know, the other part is whether or
not to do it alone or in a team, is also based
on. If you need outside money, you know, how,
how are you going to get it? And in the venture world, one of the conventions, is basically, never invest in
a single entrepreneur. And the bottom line is, if the
entrepreneur get's hit by a bus. You know, what do we have? So, if you have at least two people on a
team then, and one person gets hit by a bus, then at least, theoretically, there's
somebody to kind of go forward. And so typically, by the time you see them any entrepreneur company coming forth to a
venture capital firm. You'll see that they have you know, gotten
to a point where they have the, at least the outward
appearance, of being a, a team. >> It doesn't always work that way
afterwards, right? >> Right. [LAUGH] Angel's Kind of go back and forth. And and since I happen to straddle both
communities. You know, there, there are lots of angels
that will fund a, a single entrepreneur. And then tell them, you have to go find,
you know, other co-founders. but, you know, I, it depends on how much
money you need. >> Mm-hm. >> I think the question when, you, you
need a co-founder [INAUDIBLE], perhaps the most important
thing is, who you choose as co-founder? And in the heat of the moment or in the excitement of, of actually hatching
an idea, I think that it's easy to find somebody
that is your soul mate right there and then,
right? They all excited, oh let's do this, and
you know, and, and and they all worked up,
about it. But if you and a co-founder are looking
for somebody that can help you build a company long term, I think it's very
important to, to dive below the initial excitement,
right? What is that person's long term
contribution? And what is that person's long-term commitment and, and aspirations for the
project? And I, when I've seen [COUGH] some start
ups are failing and succeeding. I see a lot of start ups fail because the, the, the founding team was the wrong,
founding team. And the pep, and, and the founding team
did not have long term aligned objectives. And perhaps one was, was wanted to work
really hard for a long time and the other one decided
to, it was fun for a year or two but then later the person was not willing to work
as hard anymore. They didn't then have a share holder
agreement that regulated, for what ever reason, was going to happen down the road,
creates a lot of tension, right? Then one person, that was a part of the
founding team has a large, stake with the company, but he's really moving on to do something completely
different. So, that can create a lot of, issues and, and problems for, for a, a company I
think. >> And just just to add on that I think
that it's pretty crucial when you actually find
that person or find that your dream team is to find the right DNA
that has the, the hunger because partly even when
hiring, you know, my third company. It's, it's you know, you would assume I
would have the pick of the draw in, in, in hiring the best talent
and, fortunately, there is that pool there, but it's really, really hard when
you can look someone in the eye and say is this person hungry or is this
person just expecting a great outcome. Because any start up regardless, if it
doesn't guarantee an outcome and, it's really, really hard to go and
find out that the consensus DNA isn't gonna go ahead and
do what it takes to make the exit happen, or make the
positive outcome happen. And probably 1% of the people I interview,
I can see that hunger, 99% just don't have
it. So it's really finding that 1% especially in that first five employees, especially
when the first 20 employees because if you don't
you're gonna set yourself up for disappointments
and failures. >> So this is one of, one of the questions
that I personally can relate to have you ever
experienced a black day? Now I describe a black day as all despair
and no hope. And so if you have could you tell us about
it share the you know kind of anecdotally
share it with us. And then tell us you know how you've dealt
with it internally cuz it's certainly difficult and how did you
deal with it, with your company. So, I think everybody, probably has a
story. It may not, but. >> I, I, I think, for any successful
entrepreneur, you have to have a few black days cuz they ground you and
they also, [COUGH] teach you a lot. That something [UNKNOWN], that something
schoolers actually. >> You had more than one? >> I've had my fair share. [LAUGH] And, probably more than, more than
I wanted. But, I think, the the primary one that
sticks to mind is, I was 16, six months into my
business. Dropped out of high school, was doing two
to $300,000 a month in revenue. Highly profitable. And started hiring the right people. And I didn't have any formal contracts in
place with the primary engineer person that I had that was
managing the, the, the, the technology. And I just got a threat from them that if
I didn't give them a third of the company, they
would shut me down. And again, 16 and a half years old, I did
not have any idea. So, I was trying to play poker. And, obviously it didn't work in my favor. And they actually did shut me down. And, obviously when you're underfunded,
you don't have a board, you're 16, nobody's really gonna
take you seriously. So, imagine all the odds against you and
imagine completely being out of business for a
full week. So imagine no Facebook for a week. Imagine your email not working for a week. No, imagine whatever service you're
running is gone from the Internet, and the Internet's a 24/7
business, right? So that happened, and it took me a week to go, to go ahead and recover from that
until I recovered from the servers until I got the right
people to turn them back on and you know it was a
mess. It was a mess and what I realized is
there's a couple of things you gotta do. Number one never keep yourself vulnerable. If you're an entrepreneur always have a
backup plan. Always have someone else that's gonna have
your back. Or you better make sure you have that
skill set on yourself, because if you don't youre gonna
have situations like this. Number two, always surround yourself
around people who wanna make you win, and see you win, and you know, make sure
you have the right rock stars with you because if you don't
have those right people, you're gonna have you know, so many of these
horror stories over and over. And, you know, I learned a lot from that. And I wasn't cheap on employees. I wasn't cheap on any of the structures I
needed to do from thereon. And, you know, a year and two months after
that point is actually when I sold the company
for $40 million. So yeah, that was probably the most black day of any teenager's life that you could
imagine. But you know, it ended up becoming a positive outcome, because I learned a lot
from it. And a lot of it, you know, for at least my
entrepreneur journey came from making these mistakes, and actually seeing these disappointments come
to life. Because, you know, they ground you, and
they teach you a lot and they prepare you for, for the
future. >> So I, I think that there are two kinds
of, of black days. There's the black days that are defined as when there are truly, all despair and no
hope. And I, we've all had those days in our
lives, in different ways. [COUGH] You know, this is just part of
life. So, these things happen. I think start ups in my experience usually
takes one of two forms, either you had some great
momentum and it suddenly stopped or its just slowed
dramatically and you don't see how you're gonna find your way back
out of that. Or a people issue. and, you know, those take all kinds of
forms. But, there's also a lot of black days
where there actually is some hope in there, if, if you look at
it closely. And so in terms of how, how you deal with
it. I think trying to find that, that, that
hope and, you know, trying to find a kernel of, of what's gonna
enable you to turn this around. Whether it's something specific and
tactical or something emotional is really
important. You know, personal example of that which
has been talked about a lot is when we launched the News Feed at
Facebook in the fall of 2006. And, we had a product that we had a lot of conviction around, and felt was a
great product. Which was a great product, we just did a
really, really, incredibly terrible job of actually
launching it, and preparing people for it. Or not preparing people for it. And the reaction was you know,
unbelievable. We had 10% of the user base actively
protesting against us. 10% of the user base, a million people
actively protesting. We got a phone call from the Palo Alto
Police Department saying turn it off right now because there's
gonna be a protest rally in Downtown Palo Alto on Monday and we can't
put up the infrastructure to support a protest rally in this city, so
you have to stop it. Camera crews coming up the windows of the
office, peering into the office. [LAUGH]. To you know, [COUGH] try to get pictures
of people. Just really, unbelievable amount of, of,
of of you know, bad feeling and pressure coming from the entire
outside world, but what was so meaningful about that moment for me, was that was the
moment when I fully understood for the first time just how
important this was to people. That people cared about this so much that
they would get this upset about it in large
numbers. Say, my god, this is, there's something
going on here. Which is really, really rare and really
special and, and we have problem that we need to deal
with. But you know, underneath that all, there's
something very powerful here we can harness, you know if we do it in
the way. So there are situations in life whether in
your start up or the rest of your life where
things are just bad and there, and there're just
no there's nothing you can do about if but get
through it. But a lot of times there is actually
something more in those situations, so I'd encourage everybody to at least ask the question is there something else to this
story. >> I've actually like to answer the
question in a slightly different way I'm a little bit older than most of the
other panelists so I've think I've had more black days but what's gotten
me through them is that I picked up the phone, and and talked
to an advisor. And and the advisor, helped me put the
situation in perspective, and, and one of the attributes about a
really bad black day, is the reason why we call it black, is that
things went from grey to black. >> The black days, they're really black. >> Yeah. [LAUGH] Yeah, I mean, all you can see is
bad, and negative, and and you're normal personality of positive and seeing
the silver lining and all, suddenly just left your
body. And and it was that ability to reach out
and and have prospective brought back in and its'
amazing. When I look back through my life nad I
look at those black days, it was literally less than 24 hours before I was
able to reframe that as this is when the universe changed, rather than,
this is a black day. And, I've now gotten to the point, where, when
I hit black days, I'm like, oh, the universe is
about to change. Okay. and, and I actually, now, try to very actively be that special advisor for our
portfolio companies. and, I, I hope I'm the one that when they get in trouble, that I'm the one that they
call. >> Yeah, I think, yeah, one example of
black day for me would be a complete R&D dead
end. So this was this, fingerprint research
company that I started, [INAUDIBLE]. So this was a very ambitious project, and
initially we thought it was going to be fairly easy. We were going to revolutionize how
fingerprint matching algorithms were done. [COUGH] But it turned out to be much, much
harder than we thought. And on the way we actually found a text book saying that this was actually
not possible. This was theoretically an exciting idea
but in practice it wouldn't work. But here of course that made us more
excited, and we wanted to, to go on. But as time goes moving on, we were really
not getting any progress. And, and I had, we had spent I think three
and a half years, and I spent several million
in funding this. And it was to the point that the engineers on the team, they didn't believe
it anymore. And, everyone else was questioning whether
it was possible to move forward. And, I had a wake up call one day when
one, one of my friends that I, who I trust really
well, said you're, you're so stubborn, why is it that everyone else in
the world believes that this is impossible, even your engineers work in
the R&D team, and still you believe. That this is doable, you know? And then I started to ask myself, am I
delusional? [LAUGH] Am I completely irrational? Am I just trying to pursue a dream that is
really not ever going to happen? And that was a really tough moment for me. And I was really mulling this over and I
was thinking, the only rational thing, actually, is to
throw in the towel, right? Everyone around me told me that that was
going to be the case. But the thing that made me not throw in
the towel, was that, when I was really feeling really
thinking through it, deeply. I realized that, if I threw in the towel now, I will never be able to forgive
myself. I will always continue in my life asking
what if I didn't throw in the towel. And when I came to that realization I
decided that you know whatever it takes okay, I
set aside this amount of money, and whatever
it takes, this amount of money, I'm able to set
aside. And I'm going to go all the way, all the
way to the absolute point where there's no hope whatsoever
that this is, is going to, to be successful. Then I'm willing to, to throw in the
towel. But I know for sure that I have done
everything I can. And after that, it wasn't so black
anymore. Because then I, then I kinda felt good. Then, I had a kind of a plan. And, what happened was that we actually
had, had to, to get a completely new R&D team. So I moved the whole R&D to the US. And slowly [INAUDIBLE], we were able to
turn around. And we were able to get the breakthroughs
that we were hoping for. Three years later. >> Do you ever reach a point where you
[COUGH] like, all right I've done everything I can that's it
I'm throwing in the towel. >> I was very close at this point, right? [LAUGH] But I decided that okay, whatever
it takes this is the money that I'm willing to
spend. >> Right. >> This is how far I am willing to push
it. And I was thinking about selling lots of
things I had and whatever. You know, I wanted to bring it to this
point. And once I had that, made that mental
decision. >> Mm-hm. >> I was kinda ready to go. And then it wasn't that black anymore. >> Mm-hm. >> I think the, the flipside of that is, I
think a lot of people, when they're walking to what they
wanna do, they walk in with fear. And they walk in with failure. So, you know, they're basically saying,
okay, I got this great idea. I wanna go and work on it and then they're
spending 80 to 90% of their energy on the fact that it's gonna fail already versus that 10% oh, okay maybe it won't
fail. Right? So, I think it's great when you can go and
set aside okay this is my plan and this is my point of how far I'm gonna take
it and I'm gonna give it my all. I'm gonna spend that 100% of my time in
making it happen. Hm. The flip side of that is when you, when
you haven't even started it. When you have nothing [LAUGH] to even go
ahead and, and, and, and, and do it and you're
consuming yourself with. [COUGH] Where all this negative energy
where you're like oh my god am I gonna fail, and if I fail my family's
gonna think this my-. Friends are gonna think this end. >> Right. >> I think that's really where, when
you're starting off as an entrepreneur, you gotta clear your, you
know, clear your head on that and just walk into, fail,
failure's not an option and you're gonna give it all your all from
day one. >> Hm. >> Actually I think that's one of the big characteristics of a, a really
successful entrepreneur. Is that they actually never recognize that
they could fail. >> It's part stubborn, part ambition. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, I, I have a feeling. I have a feeling that Jorun was never
actually gonna reach that point where he said, you know what, I've
done everything I can. Enough of that. [LAUGH]
>> No. It, it was, there was no money left. You know, there was nothing left. Right? >> [LAUGH] [UNKNOWN] will go raise some
more money. [CROSSTALK]. >> Every, every, every, every, every great
entrepreneur that I've ever worked with, when they hit that point, somehow managed
to go find some more money. [LAUGH]. >> Exactly. >> Right. >> You know, just to, cuz I've maybe, I
don't know if I've seen more black days than anybody else,
but boy I've seen my share. [LAUGH] And over time I've actually come to look at them as opportunities,
leadership opportunities. You know, you can, you know, everybody
looks at the, at you, the leader of the company, and, and
everybody's down and, you know, they're looking at you and, and you're down but
it's an opportunity to say, let's do something, let's take
action, let's, you know, create a plan. And if you prevail, you actually build
tremendous bonds in that leadership team and, and the team
inside the company. So and, you know, if you can kinda step
out of the blackness just for a moment and say is there an
opportunity here there really actually is. I mean that's, that's kinda one of the
things I've seen but keying off of Car-Carol's comment the next question I
had was what are the characteristics of an
entrepreneur? What are the, I mean, and there's many, I
mean, I, I certainly have as I teach the s, this subject matter and
I've come up with lists of 20, 30 you know, different words, th,
tha, what do you think of the characteristics that are, that are
central to the, to the character of an
entrepreneur? [BLANK_AUDIO] [LAUGH]. >> All right, I'll start. [LAUGH]. >> So I think the details actually vary a
little bit my market. But to abstract out from that to what some
of we've all been talking about. I think that the most important thing is
that it's something that comes from passion for whatever it is
that you're doing. Whatever it is your building, whatever it
is your making, whatever problem it is your solving, whatever new thing it is
you're bringing into the world. That can manifest itself in lots of
different ways. There're a few people out there, for whom that passion, is actually the act of
entrepreneurship. And those are people who I think generally
are called serial entrepreneurs. But for, for those people, it's, it really
is like entrepreneurship itself, is the thing
itself that they're passionate about. Some people are like that, a lot of people
who are good entrepreneurs aren't really like that, and don't even necessarily sort of self identify as
entrepreneurs. And and just self identify that yeah I'm
doing this thing. You know, it's just this thing, that, that
I, not even that I want to do, it's just like yeah, this is
just like what I do. I, I do this. I have to do this. And so I do think the details vary a
little bit by market but the best abstraction that I
can, or the best example, template, that, that I can
think of for that particularly for the areas that I focus on
is Martin Luther. That's sort of the template that I always hold up for somebody who's a great
entrepreneur. And the reason that I say Martin Luther in
particular is, you, you need to sort of be you know, just
a little bit crazy, completely convicted
that, you know, your, your idea and your way is the way the world needs to
go. But not sort of to the point of, of
irrationality and self destruction. You know, there's a difference between
somebody who is an evangelist and, and a, and a creator, and somebody
who is a martyr. And you know, I, I hear people talk about, you know, Joan of Arc as an
entrepreneurial architect sometimes. I would argue that's a little to much
martyrdom, and a little. >> [LAUGH]
>> Too little impact. so, you know, getting the balance on that
right is very tricky. But, it's that, just, conviction that's
completely transcendent to everything and is just something that
the, that the person does, must do. It's just, you know? It is what it is. That's sort of the, the architect in my,
in, in, the, the archetype in my mind. >> I think one characteristic you gotta
swallow really, really hard is you gotta embrace rejection, and
sometimes the hardest thing to do as a human being but if you can swallow it and understand how to you know,
deal with it. You're gonna probably solve 80% of your
problems. And if you just look at my career path nobody wanted to fund me, at a click
agents. I was doing millions of dollars in revenue
and millions of dollars in profit. But nobody wanted to fund me, because I wasn't part of the, the .com, you know
euphoria. And, and the way things looked, at least
back in the heyday. And then at Blue Lithium I had three
different venture capitalists pull away from doing a deal with me at the
last minute. So imagine like doing high fives with your
employees and realizing oh, we're gonna get millions of dollars in for the
company and then getting it pulled. I even had one very famous venture firm in
the valley. Told me that I was gonna miserably fail at
Blue Lithium, and that I should listen to them and, you know, divert my attention to something that's actually
gonna work. So, and I wonder where he is now. But, I'd love to have a drink with him. But, you know, if you look at that and
then just kinda look at even the you know,
other industries. You know, look at Garmin. That you know, the founder of that company
tried 88 times til he got an investor to actually
say yes. And then if you look at J.K. Rowling as, as an author, she's the most respected,
most I mean she's a billion dollar, billionaire
author and she got rejected 7 times [COUGH] from her
first book. So, all of that comes down to the human
nature of realizing what you're pain tolerance is
for embracing rejection and so long as you can grow a thick skin, drown
out the noise, and focus on that objective, I
mean, you will prevail. [BLANK_AUDIO] >> And, I think, I think the way I look at
an entrepreneur is really that
entrepreneurship is really a way to express yourself. In the same way an artist is creating a,
or painting a painting, or composer writes, writes music, I think
fundamentally, an entrepreneur creates a company, that's a great organization, in a
way to express himself or herself. so, so there's an underlying passion, and its underlying desire to contribute in
some way. To get their voice heard. To, to, to, to add to the world, and make the world in, in a tiny way a little
better. I think that, perhaps there're three
qualities that I would, on the top of my head, think of that is important qualities, and
I think one is that you're very optimistic,
you know. If, if you have a, if you see the world
through a positive lens, every person you meet is a potential partner, or and
employee, or a pers, or a client right? If you have a negative perspective that
every person you meet is a competitor or some, or, or there's and
obstacle towards your success. So have that positive mind-mindset I think
is hugely im, important because then you see
the opportunities that you will, that, that
comes your way that you perhaps didn't even think
about initially. The second one is the same thing as Jay was talking about, that ability to
absorb rejections. The ability to absorb disappointments,
setbacks because it is going to be a long way. It is going to be a way with a lot of
setbacks. And to, to withstand that, I think is es, essential to be successful as an
entrepreneur. And perhaps, this last thing is a way to impact people around you, because as an
entrepreneur, typically you, you have to create a
phenomenal team around you for the company to be
successful. And you don't need to be the, the, the, the, the light of the party, you don't
need to have phenomenal people skills, but at
least there's something with you that, that you're able to inspire
other people. Perhaps you're the best developer. That, you, that when you're extremely
passionate about what you do, what con, you have this strong conviction that other people
see, they like, and they want to follow you. So I think there is an element of having
ability to, to, influence and attract, and inspire other people, as
a key ingredient i, in that. So being positive, absorbing rejections
and and, and affecting people in, in one way or
another. >> Carol, you have anything to add? >> The only thing I wanna [COUGH] just add
to this conversation is in, in my mind, there is a gigantic difference
between an inventor and an entrepreneur. And and in Silicon Valley, we tend to
blend the two. and, and I think that's a big mistake. There are lots of people who can create interesting technologies, but they
can't deliver. And and so for me, the entrepreneurship
part shows up in their ability to deliver. And and, and that's a very vague term, but
anybody that's been an entrepreneur will understand that, that is
where the rubber meets the road. >> It's a, it's a great point. I think a lot of where that delivery
happens, just as Joren said is around people,
people, people, people. The people you can rally to work with you,
and help you. The people who you can inspire. Who are going to be you're customers, or,
or your users, or your other constituents that we're going
to inspire to invest in you, exactly. that, that ability to not just create
something, but to inspire others with, with your
creation, I think is the thing that propels you forward from that initial ideation to
actually succeeding. >> I think entrepreneurship is kind of
like, it's like an art. And there's probably three stages of it. And I mean this in, in, in,
wholeheartedly. There's probably the first stage where
you're the creator and you're the inventor and you're trying to
prove of concept. The second stage is you're the manager. You're actually trying to go ahead and
scale the company. You're actually trying to build. You're actually trying to go ahead and
prosper in that regard. And the last part is you're the, the
executor. You're actually executing against, a
potential outcome. And that itself is a different strategy. So all three require a completely
different approach and it's up to you as an entrepreneur to see if you can mold
yourself as the company grows. So you know exactly how to go ahead and
act. 'cuz you can't act like the creator when you're already at a company that's already
doing $100 million in comp- in revenue and
you're trying to go ahead and have a potential
exit. You gotta be a completely different CEO. So, partly, it's, it's, it's, it's, you
know? The problem that, that I see in most
entrepreneurs is that they get way too emotional with
certain things. Whether that is owning certain amounts, or
controlling certain amounts. But I think the best thing about being an
entrepreneur is being able to adapt to the different changes that you're able to do in the various stages of
entrepreneurism. >> On the other hand though I, I wanna
make sure that people are clear about the fact that entrepreneur does not necessarily
mean founder. I mean there are lots of people that were
extraordinarily entrepreneurial at Google. Or at Intuit, or at Cisco, and at Yahoo. I mean, pick the company. I mean, being entrepreneurial is a state
of mind. It, it isn't, you know, the fact that
you're the, the founder. >> How, how do you, in this character, issue, how do you feel about you know,
risk seeking, risk avoidance kinda thing that
would, a lot of people describe entrepreneurs as as
risk seeking. Do you, how would you, how would you
comment on that? >> So I, I, I think your ability to live in a risky environment is pretty important
as an entrepreneur. You know the, the whole concept of you
know, can you sleep at night? Becomes a, a, a big one. And, and if your gonna put your health at
risk, being a entrepreneur probably isn't the
right thing for you. and, you know, there're times in your life
where you can't afford to take a risk. You have too many other individuals in
your life that are depending on you. and, and so I think there's some, you
know, kind of reality checks that you need to have about
your, your risk levels. Having said that, most of the entrepreneurs that have been incredibly
successful are the ones who took risks at extremely
inappropriate times in their lives. And and so Ted, to Matt's point. You set a rule down and somebody's gonna
think of an, an exception to it. So, but, but risk being willing to live
with risk >> Right. >> is, is a big one. >> That's a big distinction. The distinction between being okay with
living with risk, being risk tolerant, and being risk
seeking. >> Yeah. >> You know I think it's, it's kinda crazy
to be risk seeking per se, I think great
entrepreneurs tend to be change seeking, and when you're
trying to change things, [COUGH] risk is inherently a part
of the process. You have to be okay with that. but, people sort of seek out risk for the
sake of seeking out risk. Maybe you'll get lucky, [LAUGH] but that
doesn't seem like the, you know, the, the way to make things
happen to me. >> Actually, you know, in, in many cases I
think especially when they're starting up the company, you,
you don't see the risk. >> No, absolutely. >> I mean, you're so clear about your
vision of the future. >> Exactly. >> That the to, to G's point, failure
isn't an option. >> [CROSSTALK] That's right. >> Blinded by the vision right? >> Yeah. >> So yeah. >> But I agree with that, you know. Because a lot of times when you talk about
entrepreneurship, a lot of people start talk about the risk,
or taking risk. >> And, there's something with that, that
rubs me the wrong way, because I don't think
necessarily entrepreneurs are taking risk. At least I don't look at myself as taking
risk. On the, on the contrary, I feel that I
continuously try to minimize risk. But what I do try to do, is pursue
opportunities I see. But I don't look at myself as a risk
taker. I'm willing to live a risk, I'm willing to
tolerate, to, to live with risk. >> Right. >> But I'm, I, I'm not the risk taker, I
minimize risk, for what, whatever ability I'm, I'm
capable of doing, you know? So it's more, I think that's a big
distinction. >> But, but, but in reality the, the fact that you're willing to operate
without a net. >> Yeah. >> By definition [CROSSTALK] moves you
into the risk. [CROSSTALK]. >> I'm perhaps a bit more risk tolerant. Once you say that you're a risk taker, I feel that you're, you're stepping over,
over a line-. >> Right. >> That I'm not comfortable. Associating myself. >> Right. >> Well, I also think there's two types of
risks that entrepreneurs take. I mean, there is also two types of
entrepreneurs. I'm, I'm you know, there is a type of entrepreneur that say, okay, I'm gonna
change the world. So I'm gonna go with the crazy idea, and
nobody has done it before, and I'm gonna try to go ahead
and prove myself right. >> I love those. >> I'm not one of those [LAUGH] I, I'm one
of the, I'm the, I'm on the second category, which is basically
saying okay, I recognize that there's enough
people doing this, and I understand this may be a crowded space but I'm gonna copy exactly
what they're doing, but I'm gonna go ahead and catch up to them, by executing them
better. And then, I'm gonna innovate. And if you kinda think about that, that's
how, majority of all the successful companies in Silicon
Valley have, have actually started. I mean, if you look at, you know, kind of,
Friendster and MySpace, you know, MySpace was just copying Friendster, but it could scale,
right? And then, if you kinda look at MySpace and
Facebook. I mean, Facebook yeah, is very different
now, but it had the same functionalities. At a certain point too, and, you know, that's really where I think the, the, my
recommendation to entrepreneurs is that, don't put
yourself, I mean, again, I know you love the first
category but I kind of fear, that if people try to
go ahead and prove something that haven't been proven before, you are walking in to a, a, a room, that isn't already
disqualified yet. So, you know, that, that-. >> So, some, some of that happens with
depending on industry. So, i mean, for instance, the areas we've
made the most amount of money, is in medical
devices, or not. And and the reason why our companies have
been successful and have made us a lot of money, is cuz they did
something totally new and different and >> I like that, too. >> Yeah. [LAUGH] So, I mean, you know. >> Sure. >> There, there's room for both. >> Sure [CROSSTALK] but I think there's,
all I'm saying is there's a lot of risk in putting something in a
category that hasn't been proven. I mean just based on, enough data that supports, you know, new investments that
haven't been proven versus going after a category that
is already out there and you're competing
against it. There's always gonna be a leader, there's
always going to be an incumbent, that, I mean that's just the
nature of business. All I'm saying, at least for me as an
enterpuneur, I reside in the latter, where I'm not gonna take that risk of coming up with something
completely different. And you know, be left to kind of, you
know, cold shoulderish in the marketplace,
versus kinda going in with it and, you know, replicating something, and
then innovating it by out-executing them and, you know, after
I've reached a certain point. >> John? >> But I think when it comes to risk
sometimes I'm not sure if I'm understand all the discussion either because, what are you risking,
right? There's an under, underline assumption
that there's spec, something specific that
you're risking. And I think that people have different
aspects of what is worthwhile risking, or what is
worthwhile not risking, right? So the, so, if you don't have a good
understanding of what you're risking, then the
discussion becomes very abstract too. And I, and I, the way I look at it is
that. You, you have a certain amount of time, on
this planet. Tomorrow you can be hit by a truck. And do I, do I want to live my life doing something that I don't feel
fulfilled with? That's a bis, big risk that you live the
whole life and being miserable, right? So, so, dep, it depends a little bit on
what it is that you really want to do. And what you are willing to risk. And in that perspective I think, I
understand that risk is associated with
entrepreneurship, but I don't like the notion, risk is put on a entrepreneur saying that this person is a
risk taker. >> Let, let, let me move to one more issue
of this entrepreneurial character that I
think is, is interesting to discuss. You know, in my thinking over the years
about what motivates entrepreneurs, I've kind of
come with three categories. Change the world, build a great company,
get rich. so. >> [INAUDIBLE] Okay. >> Yeah, so, so, what is the [COUGH] I
think all three's fine. But some people are driven more by one
than by other. So how would you describe, you know, those
three words for yourselves in terms of how you, how you kinda slot yourself or
profile yourself relative to those things. And do you think those are relevant to
entrepreneurial motivation? >> I mean, I would say I mean, I, I never
did anything for the money. And I think that anybody. That walks into an entrepreneurship
endeavour to get rich, has already failed. And I mean, monetary exits, cash that you
make is, really, comes after all the hard work, and you can't even
think about that from day one. And if the minute you do, you're gonna start making, you know, short-term
decisions that are gonna go ahead and affect your business decisions that you should be
making. So, for me it's always been, been about
being successful. And, and proving to myself that I can do
it again and, that I know the formula. And so long as I know the formula, I wanna challenge myself, for the next
opportunity. And you know, sure. The money that comes along it's like
keeping score. But that's about it. >> And I, I think, the, the change the
world idea. Or variants on that, like for me, the way
I would articulate it personally, is sort of, you know, be involved with the most interesting things I can be involved
with. is, that's it. And all the best entrepreneurs I know,
tend to look at the building of a great company, and
the making of a lot of money, as means to the end of accomplishing the goal that they are
trying to accomplish. You know, the idea that, i want this to be
structured as a company, because a company is the best vehicle to
accomplish what it is that I'm trying to accomplish. If there were a better vehicle, I would
use that other vehicle instead, but this is the best vehicle, so
that's what I'm gonna do. that's, the mentality that resonates most
with me and, I think, you know, can get you to, to the biggest and,
and most exciting places. >> I think, changing the world is such a
big term. But I think, definitely there's a part of
me that, perhaps, try to contribute, somehow,
in my little way. So I think and, and the reason why I think
that is important because, I think everyone you're looking for some
kinda meaning or purpose with what you do. That you actually see that what you do has
a positive effect. And that I think is important of, of, of
my drive. In addition to that, I think it is going
back to what I talked about earlier. Working with people that you care about, working with people that you're really
passionate about, and indirectly that is really building an organization that you, that you take pride
in. >> Carol you have anything prepared? >> So you know, I think the the kind of
the core motivation and where the company is in its growth process, is gonna motivate where the money sources are
coming from. And so, if you're trying to change the
world, but there's no clear. Path to making money. The type of investor that you're going to attract, is going to be very different,
than one that you come in and say, you know [SOUND]
here, here's the plan, I'm gonna do this. This is gonna happen, and and you're gonna
get your money back in three years at, you know, x
percentage. Well, having heard that speech a lot of
time, I'd never believe it. But, but the point is it, that it, it attracts a different type of investor, and
and so. Part of the game and, and one of the thing that craters any startup is not
being properly capitalized. And so, part of the game is figuring out, where are the right pockets of money for
your startup. And, I think, I think, you need to
understand, when do you need to attract money because of passion, when do
you need to attract money out of greed. And and where do you need to attract money
out of the philosophy of, of building a a bigger,
stronger company. >> So one of the questions, I think is
generally interesting, certainly do the students that I teach is, where do
great ideas, great insights, come from? And, if you're willing to share, what's
hot now? [LAUGH]
[SOUND]. >> I, I would say social gaming, and
social media, is probably from a sector. Probably one of the interesting sectors
that, that, that I see right now. I mean, hence I'm in it. But in terms of ideas and execution, I
mean, part of my philosophy is that idea, when you get it,
is 1% of the journey. 99% of it is all execution. So, I know a lot of people that get wound up because they see a hot idea, or a hot
sector, and you know, they basically, I mean, I
even get crazy emails saying, hey, I have the next
trillion dollar idea. [LAUGH] I don't even know if that idea
exists, but, still, in terms of people's mindset, they think this idea is gonna
make them rich, or this idea is it. That's it. That's, that's 1% right there, you know,
and 99% of how you actually execute from starting
a company, making it into something, and going
through the ups and downs that you're gonna have to go
through. Is really the outcome that you should
focus on. >> Yeah, I refuse to even answer the
question because it's not what anybody should be thinking about if
they're thinking about starting something. You need to be thinking about, you know,
what you wish were hot tomorrow, not what's hot
now. The you know, my job, is to spot what's hot now before anybody else spots what is
hot now. But that's a different topic, that's being
a venture capitalist you know, the entrepreneur's job, is to do the thing
that they wanna do and so I wou, I wouldn't worry about what's
hot now, actually, the only, the, the only extent to which I would
worry about what's hot now. Is, if you really wanna do something, and
you look, and say you, know know, this is really hot right now, that's probably a
bad sign but, beyond that, just forget it. Don't, don't, don't, you know, don't, look
at it as a positive or a negative. Just ignore it, just ignore everything and
just do, do what you wanna do. >> I strongly support what you are saying,
Matt. I, I totally agree. And I, I think that sometimes there's a
little bit of a fear in you're chasing what is hot,
you know? And, and, and that, I think that is a, a
big mistake you do, that you try to come up with
something that is hot. You know, it must be something that you're
passionate about. It must be something that you. You can really see, that this will have an
impact. That, this will really create value. And, and where to look, I ha, you know, I
have no idea really, but I love internet. I think internet is fantastic, and
particularly when you think about [INAUDIBLE] mobile
phones. And I think that, well, some people say that all innovation on the internet is
done. Some people say that so, so, social media
and. And social network is the last big
innovation on internet. I don't think that's true, whatsoever. I mean, we are the first generation that
grew up with computers. Internet has just come up in, in the la,
late in the last few years. Social media didn't [INAUDIBLE] until one,
one year ago. So, within that space, there's just
phenomenal. And phenomenal opportunities, to, to
commit innovative products and services, and I'm sure that we just
scratched the surface of what the, wha, what the po what, what they're going to see going
forward. [INAUDIBLE] >> You know, there, there are so many
problems in the world. and, you know, kind of the core areas that
tend to trigger people's passion, is that they're trying to solve a problem, or
they're fantasizing a a different world. So you know, the current state of the
transportation industry drives me nuts, and anybody can do beam me
up Scotty, I'm, like, so there. You know, I'm concerned about health and I know that there are, like, several core
things that I need to do. Exercise and sleep And, and what I eat are the three, you know, big things that'll
impact my health. So you know, anybody that can make that
easier, and simpler and, you know, I can eat anything I want, and never put
on a pound, would be fabulous. I mean, you know, you could, I mean you start working through you know, what's
wrong in the world? Where are the big problems? What are the big trends? I mean, we have a huge bunch of people
that are crossing the 50 year old line, and the world is different
when you're 50. And and so, how do we meet those needs? We have a a younger generation that is moving into a global world, not a village
world. How does that impact? I mean, pick an area, and and you can
discover that there are problems. And the minute you discover the problems,
you start fantasizing about how to solve it
and, bingo. >> You know, pe, people talk about this
idea of changing the world a lot. I think, a lot of the times, what they
really mean is, is changing your world. You know the, really great things that
people create and build, and turn into big
companies. I think they usually come from very
personal places. >> Mm-hm. >> and, so, you know? You have to, sort of, find what's personal
for you, and what is it about your life that you
wanna change? And I think it, it could be subtle, but in
lots of ways. That extension is, is, is a driver for
people. When you start thinking about problems at
sort of grand levels of abstraction, I think you risk getting into
sort of dangerously unemotional territory. This is hard, right? [LAUGH] It's really hard to do this. You have to really, really, really wanna
do this all day and all night 7 days a week for the next, assume it's
gonna take 20 years, you know. And completely disrupt and interfere with
and screw up the rest of your life. So, it better be really, really, really
personal. So it's great to wanna change the world
but I think a lot of times when people talk about changing
the world they're really talking about. Changing themselves, and, and changing
their world, and changing their world around them and that may sound selfish, but, you
know, emotions are important. >> Yeah. We, when, when we talk, when I, when I
talk about it in class, I always talk, I use the word
authentic. That there's an authenticity. >> Yeah. >> That great ideas come from personal
experience, the ability [COUGH] to be unhappy with
something, see an opportunity to change it and apply that and then, that's, you know, that, that
yields ideas. And on the, on the what's hot now question, which I, you know, always ask,
it's a. Kind of like the, the, the Groucho Marx
quote, which is, you know, who'd wanna be a member of a club
that would have me? and, you know, what's hot now? If I knew that, I would be sitting, you
know? I'd be out doing it instead of sitting
here talking about it, right? [LAUGH]
>> But, but, but, you know? The, the thing that I wanna make sure that
That at least I'm communicating is that entrepreneurship
is not limited to technology. Entrepreneurship happens in all walks of
life, and in all business segments. And there are investors that will support
that. We happen to have a particularly high
concentration of technology based investor in Silicon Valley but that
doesn't mean that, that is the world and >> Yeah, they built Starbucks on a great
cup of coffee, there's nothing [SOUND], you
got to love that. >> Who would have thought. >> Let's we have five minutes left let's
open it up and see if there's any questions from the audience for all or any particular panelist
[INAUDIBLE]. >> Great people. When you go back, sort of start up mode
you don't have much credibility behind you, not many people know you to have
this, what you think is great idea. How do you actually hire these A players,
like what are some practical sort of steps from
the knowledge, you know, now of how you would
go out and try and influence these people to
come onboard? Well, there's there's probably there's two
categories of rock stars. There's the first category of the the
family employee sweat equity rock star. And then secondly the rock stars you hire
at a second stage of the company. I think you're asking about the primary
stage and just a quick story on my side, is when I
started Blue Lithium I actually Found a company in
Belarus, of all places, through the internet, and you know, they
had a great technology. I actually went down there, visited them, and they were just scrappy entrepreneurs
building code in, you know, an apartment building, you know, next to about 18 different
computers. And I love that. I love the scrappiness, the bootstrapness,
and you know, when I look them in the eye and said, what do you want
for your company? And they basically said a half a million
dollars. And I said okay, how about if I can give
you more than that? And when I can go ahead and. What, well, in a different way. And the way was you know, for them to bind
my vision of what I wanted to create. And, you know, you got to understand when
you're trying to look for that rupture, you got to have people that
want to take that risk. And when they take that risk they are
going to go ahead and work their ass off for it. And that, that risk where they ended up
taking a stake in my company so wall paper, rather than a half a million
dollars three years later became 15 million
dollars for them. So, if you look at it in that context there are enough people out there who are
hungry. It's not that many, but there's enough out
there, and when you can find them, you know, everybody's after the same journey and everybody's after the same
goal. >> So, I total agree with, with a lot of
that. One thing I would amplify and give it a
little bit different view on, there's lot's of
different ways to be hungry. And some of the ways to be hungry can be
very destructive for your company. Some of the ways for people to be hungry can be incredibly powerful for your
company. I think you really want to find people not
who are low ego, which is what people always talk about, but rather who have a strong ego and a desire to sublimate that
completely. Into what it is that the company is doing. Which is a different thing, but is a very
important distinction. So how do you do that? You have to be really careful to find
people who are, you know, nobody will ever be as deeply passionate about what the
company is making as the founder, perhaps. But you need to find people who are
really, really passionate about... What the company is doing, as opposed to
the fact that the company hot, or the company
is, you know, in an interesting space, or the
company has funding from good investors, or what
have you. That's hard to do. I think there's some tactical ways you can
do it. You know, at some of the companies I've
been involved with, we've had people. Take title deflation or coming of the
company which is a somewhat contrary while the management theory said,
that's a very bad thing to do. But actually I think it's very good Litmus
test to why is this person here? Why are they coming here? There's lots of other ways you can do that
too. But the, those subtle differences can. Have a huge impact on how things go. >> I think we, I think we're actually a
little past our time. But let me say thank you to all the
panelists. I assume that some of you will be
available for some people to come over and say hello to
afterwards. Thank you very much.
