To Anyone Feeling LOST & UNHAPPY, Watch This To FIND MEANING In 2023 | Rick Rubin

we are in control of our own lives we often don't realize we're in control but we're in control of our own lives and we can make different choices and if the things in our life are not bringing us joy and happiness if our career that we've devoted all of our Lives to isn't bringing us joy we can change them if we decide our relationship is not the right relationship we don't have to suffer in that relationship we have our own power and we can make a change and it takes courage um but it's in everyone's best interest for us to take care of ourselves to be in a relationship or in a job where you're phoning it in because you think it's your responsibility to do the job there's probably someone who would do that job with passion and bring more to it than you are in your relationship if you've fallen out of love and you're going through the motions you're not doing anyone any favors it's not real and um and if you feel depressed and you can't manage the life you're in you can go move to another part of the world you can live on a beach you know you can you can there's so many options available to us that we don't you know we're stuck in our small story of who we are and what our lives are and it's all a choice and we have the power to change it anything anything in our lives that doesn't give us joy we can change and we can find the version that that suits us and it's not only in service to us it's ultimately what's best for everyone you know when you're on an airplane and they say if the plane's going to go down these uh masks are going to fall down put your mask on first before you put on your child's or anyone else's which is counter-intuitive we always think we take care of our children first but if you're not taking care of yourself you can't take care of anyone else so I would say primarily take care of yourself first if you want to save the world save yourself and then save your immediate family and then save your immediate uh neighborhood and then save your you know your um your town start with small circles and build out do you know meta meditation The Meta meditation is uh might be filled with loving kindness may I be well may I be peaceful and at ease may I be happy we repeat these four phrases over and over again and for the first year or so of doing it it's May I and then after a year of May I we've built up a strong enough charge to say may we and the we might be your immediate family first and you do that for another year and build up the power in that unit and then you can extend it and by the fifth year you can do it for the planet but you can't do it for the planet first because there's no built up charge so do what's necessary to take care of yourself build yourself up have the strongest charge possible that you could then share and make the world a better place we can live in a way where we're living in an Artful way where we're uh engaged and paying attention and um making each choice count or we can live in a almost like sleepwalking through the day which many many of us do many of us do just go along yeah just you know repeat yesterday again um and I suppose the principal argument of the book although it didn't set out to be this way is that um is that the way we choose to live in the world impacts our ability to [Music] um to make more beautiful things it's it's um it's less about the making and more the being and through the being the making is a it's like a reverberation of it it's not it's not the it's not the primary yeah I didn't know that before starting the book honestly it came through the process of trying to understand how uh [Music] how decisions um have been made over the course of my life that yielded good results creatively um and it revealed itself through the process of the book I think it's very rare that I picked up a book that has resonated with me I would say on a deep visceral level as quickly as yours has I think it's maybe the time in my life the way I'm experiencing it what I'm looking for at the moment but what really strikes him as interesting is on the surface it kind of seems as though it's a book about art but actually it seems more to me about being a book about how to live yes I would agree you have been involved with the curating of many music albums over the course of your career some of the most famous albums on the planet what was it like working on a book compared to working on music felt felt very much out of my depth with music I've done it long enough where um I have a sense I want to say I have a sense of how it works even though it's still this magic process that I that we have no control over but because of you know 35 or 40 Years of doing it uh it's not a total unknown whereas the book was much more of an unknown stepping into it and I've never put out anything with my name on the front of it before I'm always the you know I'm essentially an invisible coach sometimes people know about my involvement but I'm a behind the scenes uh participant in the projects that I am in this is the first time that it's actually me and I'm the person talking about it usually the works that I work on I rarely talk about them because the person whose name's on the front of the record talks about them so it's been an interesting different experience and um and and finding words to explain something that I don't know can be explained and that I don't I don't fully understand it's difficult yeah that's where I think very evasive you know it's like what I'm I'm describing smoke and it's hard to describe smoke I think that's where the magic for me in this book is you I guess you're writing about an experience you're writing about the way you have experienced art the way you see art through your lens you you have possibly the best opening to any book ever nothing in this book is known to be true it's a reflection and what I've noticed not facts so much as thoughts I love love it so so much and I think one of the reasons I like that opening so much is you know I've been a practicing medical doctor for 21 years now as we're having this conversation Rick and the more patients I see the more people I'm able to help the more I realize I don't actually know that much and some of the best clinicians and doctors I've met also share the same view like this you know the more I know the more I realize I just don't know and I'm always open to be I'm always open to being surprised by something a patient tells me or something a patient experiences and actually I think there are so many similarities between art the way you describe it in your book and Medicine the way I like to practice it which is I think what is drawing me to it so much that's beautiful I didn't know that and that's um that really lands with me in a great in a great way I hope there are more people in the medical field who have have that feeling you use the term invisible coach before yeah which I think is a really beautiful way of thinking about certainly what I've read about you I've consumed as a fan many of the albums you've been involved with some of them have played huge parts of my youth growing up at various times and I was thinking well how can Rick can do hip-hop and rock and Metal and whatever genre you are helping that artist to be themselves yes now how do you help an artist to be themselves if the artists themselves doesn't know who they really are sometimes they they uh they often don't know who they are and they often tell you who they are without knowing they're telling you who they are okay so through through really through conversation I imagine very similar to do you spend when you when you get a new patient if you spend time talking to them absolutely okay and I imagine they tell you things that light up for you as okay I know what's going on here yeah yeah when they're telling it to you they have no idea yeah it's exactly the same it's exactly the same if I if you really listen people tell you what they need what they want what their dreams are and they'll tell you I don't know what I want I don't know what my dreams are I don't know who I am and then they tell you exactly this is who I am this is what my dreams are but it but they're um it's almost like sometimes we're too close we're too close to be able to see ourselves it's very difficult to see ourselves it's funny just a few hours ago I had a conversation with the chap Called Bruce Lipton who wrote the book the biology of belief and it was a wonderful conversation and Bruce talks about the conscious mind of the subconscious mind and how 95 of our lives are driven by our subconscious patterns but what really connects with what you were just saying there is we were talking about how we can see those patterns in other people very clearly you can see in our partner yes and our children and our friends you're just like your mum you're just like your dad but it's not so easy to see it ourselves is it no no it's too close and same same goes in in working on things it's um when we're creating something we we can get into it to a point of tunnel vision to where through the singular focus of working on it we lose perspective on what it actually is so it's something that that's helped that artist an artist who writes their own material might find helpful to have someone like me to bounce it off of they they might be too close to it to truly see what it is yeah um and and it's helpful to have someone say when I when I read these lyrics this makes me feel this is that what you're is that and sometimes they'll say no not at all not at all not only no not at all but if that's what you got from it I have to change it yeah and other times it'll be yes that's exactly what it means that's what I want it to be and sometimes it's no that's not what it means but it doesn't but that's fine too you know it's it really each case depends on um there's no right or wrong in any in any of these art decisions um it's just helpful to have a an outside Source mirroring back what's going on and it either resonates or not did you have an invisible coach to help you with your work in this book because it sounds like that's what you offer to other people because as you just be beautifully said we we can get too close to the work yeah um so did you have people around you to help you maintain that perspective and distance absolutely I had people helping along the way in different capacities um ultimately at the end of the project Scott who's the editor at penguin press in New York was really helpful in the final touches of what worked and what didn't um but all through the process started working with one writer and then working with another I ended up working with many people over the course of the seven years of working on the book and it went through lots of um changes in iterations on the way to get where where it is but it it really helps to have have uh people who know more than you do about the thing that you're working on help has that been your experience with books how is how has it worked yeah um 100 like initially I'll cover it in five books now okay and the funny thing is well a couple of things come up for me as I say that if you'd ask me seven years ago do you have a book in you I might have said yeah I think I've got one I think I've got one book in me yes and what I've learned through this process of writing a book a year for the past five years I can't imagine that well you say that but you've got I guess you've done that in your field in music right you've probably helped so it's I guess whenever it's in a different field we we see it differently but and I want to talk about deadlines and all kinds of things because it all sort of plays in um but I've I've come to the belief that humans are infinitely creative yes and that when I finish one book and I've it's gone off to print and I've done a round of interviews on it I feel like I've I've solidified those thoughts I've shared them in the world and then I've empty the space in my brain Forks new ideas are coming and then I'm suddenly seeing new ideas fantastic everywhere but if you'd asked me a few years ago I said no I can't I've just got one I've got nothing else to share but in terms of your question Rick one of the things I've learned I remember the first time I sent an edit into penguin I thought yeah I'm happy with this and came back with all these comments um not clear this that happened initially I think I found it hard and that's probably an ego thing and what I've learned over the last few years is that you know these edits are great they're absolutely fantastic you don't have to agree with them all but don't be attached to your idea too much just listen to what people have to say then really tune in and go actually do you agree is it helpful so I've had a I've had a love hate relationship with feedback I think it's I think it's in a good place now but I think the problems I initially faced if I'm honest and I do have a tendency to be a bit self-critical but I think they were to do with ego what is it like for you when you receive comments about some of the work that you've worked on some of the words that you've written um I'm open to hearing them and um in in every case it seemed to lead to it getting better yeah I would agree with that because even if you don't necessarily agree yeah even the thought process and going why don't I agree well oh yeah but actually there's an element of Truth there which resonates so I and there's a big theme in the book is you talk about art being collaborative but you must have come across ego I imagine in your career have you come across ego and how have you managed it um absolutely think part of the secret of collaborating with someone who's uh has an inflated ego which is comes along with the territory of you know if you go on stage in front of 20 000 people screaming for you every day yeah you can that can fill you up [Music] um I think a lot of uh having critical serious critical conversations has to do with taking the person out of it and um talk about it in the book The the more the comments or the more specific and um external they are so we're talking about a song If I say your words aren't good enough that's really a personal affront yeah but if we have the lyrics out here we're looking at the lyrics together and the idea is together we're going to look at this and see is there anything that either of us can see that can make this better it's different it's like we move it and and we get very specific and it's not your lyrics it's these lyrics you know we have these lyrics here um or whatever it is that the more that it's outside of us if someone tells you an idea and you say I don't like that idea that's person that's personal yeah but if someone makes a model of something and you say well I like this but I don't like this you're you're talking about a model you're not talking about the person and by the way none of it's personal that's that's the important part is making it clear we're working together for the best thing to occur and none of it's personal we're on the same team and we're working together on behalf of this outside object yeah that same principle applies in relationships as as well as making art doesn't it if it's not personal if it's just about the thought or um the thing that you're discussing and you can make it non-personal it's going to have a much more productive outcome even with ourselves you know how we how we speak to ourselves yeah I remember when I um I was sedentary most of my life and I weighed uh 100 pounds more than I do now and when I first um met this group of athletes who invited me to train with them which was Radical I lost a bunch of weight and they invited me to train with them foreign I remember they showed me an exercise and I said I can't do that and they say no never say you can't do it say I haven't done it yet I haven't done it yet and that's true with everything it's like there's nothing that you can't do you may not have done it yet we don't know if you can do it or not until you really practice and then you find out if you can do it or not or how well you can do it yeah I want to talk later on this conversation about your physical transformation because I I think it's incredibly fascinating there's so many different strands and elements to it the way we talk to ourselves which you've just hinted out there there was a bit in the book where you were talking about feeling insecure maybe doubting yourself versus doubting yeah which I thought was a a beautiful distinction and then then you wrote this gorgeous bit which is basically insecurity is only a hindrance when it stops you sharing what's in your heart wow that's beautiful it's funny I I told you I don't really know what's in the book because over seven years all the information came out but it's not it's even when I was working on it's not things that I necessarily know yeah it is beautiful and beautiful it's one of those phrases I've underlined I've written it in my notebook because I feel at this moment in my life Rick think about that a lot I think about art I think about the expression of ideas and once you start trying to do something for an outcome yes I think I've experienced in the past that that's where the problems start to rise you start to fracture the core of who you are and I think you can be successful by a societal metric of success but in the process a part of you starts to weather in sight yes uh so I I think that is so so powerful and as a research you Rick that one of the big ideas that comes up is that you talk about how you can't make art if you're thinking about the outcome or you're thinking about business are you thinking about how many copies it's going to sell or what are the audience going to think have you always had that perspective on arts or is that something you've developed through experience I've always had it and um I think it's because it started as a hobby and I never in a way I never took it seriously in one way I took it more serious than anything else in terms of the making of the art but I never took it seriously in terms of it being a commercial thing ever at any point from the beginning it was always you know the Hope was that it would sell enough to be able to make another one that's all it ever was it was you know very um meager expectations I always thought I'd have a real job and then I would make music because that's what I love to do and I thought well I have a job and that would support my music habit I never understood that it could be I didn't even know it could be a job do you consider a real job now yes and no I mean I I it has worked out that I haven't had to do anything else so I guess and I have an incredibly beautiful life um and I suppose based on the fact that I have a schedule and I'm obligated to show up so I have commitments it is a job yeah that said when I'm there there's nothing more fun than seeing something appear that wasn't there before yeah and um The Wonder of it because again I I don't feel in control of the process I don't think anyone has control of the process I think there's truly magic going on we can set the stage to best support it to happen yeah but we can't make it happen and um it's it's uh it's it's thrilling when it does and and I and I also you know one of the things I say in the book is the audience comes last and the audience comes last not because I don't care about them or I don't like the audience in in service to the audience they have to come last the I the thing that the audience wants is the best thing they can get if we're if we're trying to make it for them it won't be the best thing it can get it'll water it down it'll the process of making something for someone else undermines it this is something I've learned through doing this podcast actually and I mean there's so much that I've learned in the last four and a half nearly five years of putting this show out but one of the things I've deeply deeply learned is that I will choose every guest and I will choose it based on my curiosity and I remember talking to my team about this a few months ago and said look people are wanting this people wanting that people want this guest and I take that very seriously it's not that I'm disregarding that but if I'm going to be truly authentic and true to myself and therefore true to them I've learned that actually no wrong and you have to almost selfishly choose the guests yes the excite you that awakens something inside of you that you passionately want to sit there for two hours with and go deep with because otherwise the audience will will hear it if you've just rolled it out you've got the right guest you've said the right things I remember saying on a podcast a few years ago when I was a guest on someone else's show and it just came out of me I said although I'm a medical doctor and people consider this a health podcast in many ways which I think is very limiting anyway um my podcast is not an information delivery system it's about authenticity if I can connect with my guests that's all I'm looking for is a deep connection and any information any helpful information will kind of spit out as a side effect of that connection yes and I don't think I recognize that when I started podcasting but the more I've worked on and hopefully got better at the skill Affairs I passionately believe that that's the case it sounds right it sounds right and um and it's been the case that people like what you're doing so it's a good sign do you always know in the moment when you're in a studio with a band of solo artists and something magical's happening do you always know in the moment not always yeah no not always just had an interesting experience to tell you about it um just before coming to Europe I was in uh Malibu for a few weeks and I made a new album with Neil Young Neil Young and Crazy Horse and it was unlike any experience I've ever had before in the recording studio and I've had a lot of experiences in the recording studio but this was really unusual and um I don't know how much you know about Crazy Horse but Neil has played with Crazy Horse for 50 years the band the band members are all turning 80 next year but Neil is not uh I think Neil will be I think Neil's 76 or 77 not sure um but the band members all turned 80. and they're not um like Studio musicians they're not like crack musicians they have a sound that's their sound and it's couldn't be more authentic it's they when they play it sounds like them um but in terms of like learning the material it doesn't just happen instantaneously like Studio musicians barely even need to hear it and they can play it and it's perfect that that's not the case with with Crazy Horse and we played through songs for the first week and I will say it was rough uh rough to the point of not only did we not get the recordings that that um who were the the basis of a great album but it was a question of whether they would ever be able to play the songs that's how how far off it seemed and um and we so the first week is a slow week and but they play through all the songs as I say poorly but we but we get through the week and now I'm thinking okay maybe next week now that they've played them one time when we come back it's going to be better the next time and uh and Neil suggests what song to start with on the next Monday we're back fresh new week and um and the drummer Ralph so we already played that one and uh and and it was a remarkable moment because um they did play it but it was uh in a in a very um unclear form yeah and then we spent the next week playing the songs again and um most of them did not get better in some cases they got worse and it was again fascinating and then Neil suggested you know let's listen back to the songs from that first week which in the moment seemed nowhere near close and we listened through and then it's like well this moment is really good and if this part didn't have this mistake we don't know like the distract the mistake is a distraction distracts us to think it's no good but it's really this mistake let's repair the mistake and we kind of went through it and did not much and then listen back and say hmm it's much better than we thought and and now the album The album's done I think it's beautiful I love it I really love it and Neil loves it and knows it's special and um and I think pretty much every one of the tracks was recorded in that first week when at the moment it seemed like I don't know if they'll ever be able to play these yeah it's unbelievable it's incredible to hear that especially with such an experience producer and experience and um I wonder what that is is it a bit like I'm sure you went through this through the writing process when you've written a chapter and yeah you're not sure I don't know and then when you read a few paragraphs that I'm not sure I'm getting my idea out there the way I wanted to is it clear enough and then you just remove one sentence or you just remove one from this paragraph one from that paragraph then oh now it's singing now it's humming now it's purring beautifully yes is it a bit like that absolutely you can yeah sometimes removing the distractions falls into place and and I can also say the opposite is true in the studio where we'll be working and trudging along and it seems mediocre and then all of a sudden it gets good and everyone looks at each other like something's happening you know and we you feel it in the moment that that's actually more common yeah feeling it in the moment and recognizing something special is happening um but this was a really interesting case because it was the furthest extreme in the opposite direction that I've ever experienced yeah and what's interesting for me uh as someone hearing that story is you're constantly being surprised all your years of experience and knowledge and then even even you are getting surprised all the time daily I'm surprised daily yeah and there's another quote I was going to talk to you about which um I nearly brought up when you were chatting about writing the book because you said I think you were talking about essentially it being out of your comfort zone it was unusual for you to be writing yourself putting your name on the front and again I maybe because I'm just started writing book six at the moment um but I love this Beware of the assumption that the way you work is the best way simply because it's the way you've done it before yeah beautiful yeah yeah there is no right way and um sometimes when we do something and find success in the way we've done it we think that's the way it works yeah but it's rarely the only way and that and it could quickly become a limiting belief if you start making things that all start seeming very similar yeah so opening it up to trying a completely different way using a different palette um collaborating with different people um so in so many different ways in being open to if you're a rock band maybe the acoustic version is interesting you know we don't yeah if you if you're used to playing loud you don't think the quiet version could be good but you never know it's like let's let's turn over all the stones let's see what's possible there's another similarity here between art and Medicine and well I guess my view on medicine more and more is that for most of the cases I see helping a patient to get better whatever that means yes I'm convinced now more than ever that it's more art than science yes I understand for a very acute case um or you know you need a heart operation like I know you've spoken about publicly before you need a super skilled surgeon who can go in and do what's necessary I understand that but for the bulk of things that people are complaining of these days I think the job of a healthcare professional or a medical doctor like myself is to be like you are to your artist an invisible coach right reflect back to them help them realize that they've got more autonomy more control more influence on their health than they think yes but also realize that what you've just said that there is no one right way like I can see 10 different people with symptoms of inadverted commas depression and there may well be 10 different ways yes to help those 10 people and actually the same person you may be able to get them better in five different ways yes so I it's funny you know I the the book it ain't just about making records it's not about writing books it's also about seeing patience it's about I think you say somewhere that it's about you know art and creativity is actually about the way we experience life and that's why I think it is so magical because these are little bits of Timeless wisdom that in many ways you've written through the lens of music but actually you're applicable to everything I hope so I hoped to write the book in an open enough way where and I think the nature of the principles that that are discussed are not about music yeah and while I view them as being about art it is true we can live in an Artful way and it'll be better than if we don't regardless of what it is we're doing are we all artists we all we all are artists the question is is are we a better artist today than we were yesterday and are we doing everything we can to be the best artists we can be tomorrow and it's it's uh we're all art we may not all be da Vinci but are are we better than we were and can we continue to become better and better and better and it's an ongoing iterative process over the course of Our Lives creativity of course is a huge part of Arts and I was thinking about this this morning when sort of reflecting that we were going to have a conversation today I was thinking well if if life is Arts and creates everything is an expression or something we have to tap into to express our art then maybe the way we are with our children the way we are with our partners that's creativity as well absolutely yeah absolutely all of it and how we are with ourselves again it's all it's all of those things um anything we do to if we're dealing with some uh some issue and if we decide to take a pill for that issue or decide to make a creative change in our life that allows the issue to resolve itself that's a creative choice and um it seems like in terms of the sustainability of being able to do these things for a long time maybe the taking the pill version isn't the best way to solve our issues how often uh as a physician how often do you recommend a lifestyle change versus uh Pharmaceutical I mean pretty much 99 of the time if not 100 these days this is what my entire career and certainly with patience but also my public facing career this is what it's all about is to help people realize actually the majority of what we're struggling with today is a result of our Collective modern Lifestyles and I say that very yes carefully I'm not blaming people yes it's our Collective modern Lifestyles yes and actually I believe this book now I think about it you can make you can make a case of this as a health book because if art is an authentic expression of who we are and we're going to do that irrespective of the outcome irrespective what people are going to think if it's truly about authenticity then I can categorically say with certainty that people living in authentic lives results in so many of the problems that I see simple one like if you are not living uh in alignment with your values with that disconnect and who you are with that fracture that's opened up in the core of who you are you will put things in that void sugar alcohol whatever it might be it's often trying to fill the void of inauthenticity so the book I feel is is helping people live a meaningful more authentic life with some simple but very very Timeless and apt truths so I would have thought if people absorbed them and live their lives by them that it will also help improve their health absolutely I'll tell you a story I um I used to live in um artist hours with musical artist hours so I would sleep until typically noon although it could be as late as three and then I would not leave the house until the sun set and then I would work in the studio all night long and usually drive home as the sun was Rising that was my normal schedule for years and years and years even back to high school I missed the first three classes of high school um for the last two years of high school pretty consistently because I was already training this late night night owl schedule which just felt it felt natural to me and it was it seemed the way other people who were interested in the things that I were interested did the same and um I worked with a performance coach named Phil maffetone who and this was um let's say 20 years ago yeah and the first thing he said is and I sleep with these blackout blinds and he said the first thing I want you to do is as soon as you wake up open the blinds and go outside preferably naked but at least as much of your body in the Sun as possible the minute you wake up yeah and he had me start doing that and at this time I was waking up at noon and I started doing that and and very quickly I started waking up earlier and earlier and earlier and earlier it happened completely naturally um when he suggested it to me what I heard so he said I want you to go outside in the center the minute you wake up what I heard was I want you to jump off a cliff that's how that's how radical and terrifying it sounded compared to how my experience of what what uh what's safe and comfort in life was was not that and um that was the first like getting in tune with the planet I didn't it was something I didn't know about I didn't know about that so in terms of being your authentic self also being your your authentic animal on this planet there are certain um uh his historically uh on a DNA level yeah there are things that our bodies like and in our modern world we don't take those into consideration evolutionary truths I guess absolutely and now I do as much as I can to live by the um you know the way people lived a thousand years ago as possible or ten thousand or a hundred thousand yeah I'm familiar with film office work um I think it's great I hope to get in touch with Phil at some point and have it on the show I'd love to talk to him yes um you have in a previous interview described your weight loss Journey as creative then if you recall that or not or I can't remember the context but I know but that's interesting yeah I found that really interesting so I thought wow I'm trying to broaden the lens on arts and creativity through you know really reading your book has it's been it's for it's it's not force me it's encourage me down a path of introspection about what does art really mean yes and I found it's so interesting hearing you Rick say that I thought weight loss is creative do you have any idea what you might have meant by that I'm not sure I'm not sure I can tell you about the experience though it was an interesting I was overweight my entire life my mom was obese and towards the end of her life was in a wheelchair due to her obesity I've been dieting and I went to Weight Watchers with my mom when I was a kid I'd tried every fad diet along the way and nothing seemed to change and and then finally I I was at this breaking point when I when I reached out to Phil I read a book by a guy named Stu middleman who ran a thousand miles in 11 days and I was thinking I can't you know walk to the end of the block and it's and and another human being can run a thousand miles in 11 days so this I have bad information you know like I'm doing something wrong and um and in in Stu's book he talked about Phil and that's how he was able to do this crazy thing and okay I have to meet this guy Phil he know he has the answers and I've met with Phil and I met with Phil several times then he eventually ended up moving into my house and we lived together for two years and I did everything he said and my health improved radically and my um my Vitality turned back on from essentially being off from a life of sedentary I was also a vegan for 20 something years which really uh created havoc in my body it was not it was not right for me why were you a vegan for ethical reasons for health combination combination um it started I gave up originally in college I gave up uh Coca-Cola Pepsi Cola first Ben gave up red meat and I I did those things I would say thinking that it was help beliefs about health um and I got down to the point where I was I wasn't using any caffeine I was drinking uh only water and I was eating chicken and vegetables at that point in time and uh then I moved to California and a friend gave me a book called diet for a new America which is a a book about veganism essentially and he said if you read this book you're not going to want to eat chicken anymore because it talked about the horrors of industrial meat and I thought well if I give up chicken I'm going to die because all I'm eating now is chicken and vegetables so I can't do that um and I thought at that time before I read the book I'm going to experiment and see how long I can go without eating chicken and um and then I ended up not eating chicken again for 20 some odd years and just ended up eating vegetables and a lot of uh processed vegan food which was it turns out not very healthy or at least not healthy for me oh I can only speak to my experience but my experience was and and I will say most of the vegans I know I knew didn't look very healthy either how heavy were you at your heaviest um 318 pounds but I don't know what that is in kilograms yeah okay okay 318 pounds and then you start working with Phil start working with Phil did everything he said my hours changed I got in tune with the planet um I was able to do stairs and walk long distances without um dying was he doing the heart rate yes he gave you your heart rates yes and said I want you to move your body but not go above this specific heart rate yes low uh aerobic heart heart rate so he has a formula that doesn't need like 180 minus your age and then you can vary certain things yeah exactly so but when you were asked to do that yes so you can you know get walking or getting it says but your heart rate can't go above a certain number that he gave you well you want to keep your heart rate right at that number as close as you can get if you're walking slowly and you're not getting to that number you're not doing it you want to be as close to the target number as possible for as long as you can you'd wear a heart rate monitor absolutely and you'd literally be out walking and checking either out when at this point in time I lived in Los Angeles so out walking is not so easy because the hills make it nearly impossible um so I had a treadmill and I did it on a treadmill at that point in time so he changes your circadian rhythm by getting you to see natural lights in the morning yes which is in tune with your evolutionary biology and your heritage yes and vitamin D and um uh the ultraviolet I got all the benefits of being in the sun in addition to getting on the on the um on the right schedule yeah and did he make changes to your diet absolutely he wanted me to eat meat he wanted me to eat everything um other than carbs which at that time I wasn't able to do because I was still a vegan so he had me add fish and eggs as the minimal of what I could do and and I ate them both not I never liked fish growing up I didn't eat fish and eggs was never something I liked and and he said regardless whether you like them or not this is medicine you take it as medicine think of it as medicine you need animal protein and I had the I added the animal protein I cut all soy I cut nuts I cut I cut I cut a lot of things and um I got much healthier and I didn't did not lose weight I lost maybe five or ten pounds over the two years that we worked together and you stuck to the advice absolutely he was with me and he said at the end of it he said and he said 99 out of 100 people who've done what you did all their weight would fall off for some reason it hasn't with you and then I thought well my mom's obese it's just a genetic thing this is what it is but at least I'm healthy now you know at least and I felt very healthy I think that's an interesting lesson there so you radically transform your lifestyle I guess the goal initially was weight loss it was so the goal was weight loss and although you didn't really gets or meet your goal I'm sure you want in more than five or ten pounds yes yes you got all these unexpected benefits um can you remember what they were it's like energy or yeah I felt great I felt great better than you felt before oh absolutely so much better so much better so much better in so many ways and then so that so now I'm a healthy heavy person and that went on for years and then I was suggested to go to see a nutritionist by I have had a mentor he just passed away maybe three weeks ago named Moe Austin beautiful man he was he worked for Frank Sinatra and he signed Jimi Hendrix and he signed the sex pistols and he was a a really uh one of the most beautiful people ever in the music business and I went out to lunch with him one day and he said you know I'm really getting worried about you I know that you you swim every day and you watch what you eat because I did but you're really getting big and I'm concerned and I'm gonna get the name of a nutritionist I want you to go to my nutritionist and do whatever he said whatever he says and I said okay I'll do it knowing it was not going to work because again I've been diligent my whole life in wanting to lose weight and nothing has worked so I'm assuming nothing will work but I go along with it because I like Mo and I'll do anything he asked me to do and I went to see his guy and he put me on egg [ __ ] he had me have seven egg shakes a day and then fish soup salad for dinner but very low calorie so it was it was not so different than what Phil was recommending except the difference was Phil suggests not counting calories and I can see I understand the idea of not counting calories and now I've come to realize I think not counting calories Works once you're at your target weight but to get to your target weight you may need to count calories yeah first of all I'm sorry to hear about your friends and Mensa yeah um yeah so I so I went on a radically reduced calorie diet I don't know 13 or 1400 calories a day and um and in 14 months I lost 135 pounds which is you know a third of my body more more than a third of my body weight wow it's interesting hearing that because whether it's 99 or a significant uh majority of people if they followed What Phil yes we're saying would absolutely yes have had better health better Vitality better energy and they would have lost weight yes because I've used that sort of approach with not everyone what with many of my patients and it can work super super well and Phil said it worked for if everyone he's done it with its work so he was he was baffled yeah and I think that counts in calories saying is again I think your story speaks to you know an idea in your book that don't get too attached to one way there's always another way you know absolutely and we're all different and we're all different and what works for you might not work for someone else and it's helpful to you know sometimes we have wisdom imparted by an expert who's telling us what what through their experience is best yeah but it may be what's best for them and not best for you and we are not we are not one size fits all yeah and it goes back to my previous comment which is as you get more experienced if you're open-minded and yeah close-minded yes after seeing tens of thousands of patients if you remain open-minded you're like there are always surprises yes there are always people doing things that you haven't tried before that but they're doing and they're getting better I've always liked to approach it with curiosity and go wow that's interesting I didn't know that I wouldn't have suggested that but that's working for you and I'd like to know more I'd love to learn more absolutely that's I that's my way of being in the world if someone tells me something that doesn't make sense to me I want to know more I want to know everything I don't I don't uh discount what they're saying just the opposite yeah I guess it's it's whether you're attached to an identity whether you're attached to being right or whether you're I guess attached to learning yes because for me I think that's the fundamental difference now and I feel that's one of the key moves I've made which is why I think at this stage in my life you know my mid-40s I've I've never felt this happy and content and I think this is a big part of it yeah Rick that it's not about being right anymore I'm not okay fine if I'm wrong about something okay great I've had the opportunity to learn something yes and I think calories for for many people I think where this calorie thing comes for years I think a lot of people are trying to count calories and a lot of people of the view that if you focus on the right Foods actually your natural satiety will take care of those calories for you that's certainly been my experience for most people but as you're just sharing well actually for some people it might well be helpful um and do you still count calories today no well the other thing that I found about counting calories that was really helpful is it is helpful to know where calories are for example when you know I I'm in I I used to like peanut butter and I switched to almond butter because it was the healthier choice but the amount of calories in half of a jar of almond butter are quite a lot so so I'm making but I'm making a healthy choice and in my mind well it's the healthy one I can have half a bottle of almond butter because I like it and I'm hungry so I'll have that understanding that the the half of Jar of almond butter had more calories than I meant to eat in in a whole day in addition to all the food that I eat was helpful to me yeah it's an empowerment piece isn't it you can now use that information and now without count and go hey I want a bit of almond butter but I better not have half the jar yes and now I rarely will have almond butter just because it's so um the trade-off of the amount of calories for what it is I might not make that choice yeah and again it's an empowerment you're now with that information absolutely you're saying for you yeah it's not worth the trade-off yes Bob down the street it's up to him he may go yeah that's I I definitely would rather eat less later but have my almond butter yes and um yeah super super interesting so you you effectively went on a super low calorie diet high protein no carb low calorie diet so with Phil you had huge improvements in multiple aspects of your health yeah just not weight loss correct when you saw uh your your late friend's nutritionist yes you got this incredible weight loss was there anything else you got with it or was it mainly weights it this is an interesting one at that point in time I felt like I I really in that in that case what he was suggesting with the nutritionist was suggesting was suggesting seemed very far out to me it seemed extreme to me and I felt like by doing what he said I was I was putting my faith in him and turning turning myself over I didn't do what I thought was best I did what he thought was best which was not something I'm good at um and I found through that through giving up what I thought was best that's how I ended up losing weight so what's the lesson there don't always trust yourself well we can't we can't always trust ourselves but it's interesting that there are times when and maybe it's it's an experiment you know it's an experiment that sometimes I'm gonna do it the way that doesn't sound right to me and see what happens again it's all a test but to but I before I was I would have been closed to that test because that doesn't sound right to me I'm not going to do that this didn't sound right to me but out of respect for Mo I'll try it yeah it's an interesting concept isn't it because I guess we'd always want people to trust themselves but nothing tends to be true at the extremes does it it's kind of like yeah sure trust yourself trust yourself but sometimes lean in and trust someone else and see what happens yes it's a bit like that section in in the book The Britain on rules and how rules are sometimes always oh we're always okay so tell me about rules [Music] um I think rules are there to be tested and when when a rule comes it can it can either be a useful rule or an A not useful Rule and sometimes we'll adopt a set of rules on purpose a limitation that that um to create a specific uh uh you may work on a book like every time you work on a book you this you have a rough idea of what it's going to be about it's not about everything yeah not every book is about everything so you set up an organization for that book that's rules and that's rules that you're adopting for that book so there's time where having rules make sense in general in the world rules are there to establish an average Behavior and I'm not sure that average is anything to Aspire to so sometimes especially in art if you want to create something special often it comes from breaking rules from going beyond the accepted Norm of how it's done yeah I'll tell you this is an interesting medical story about going beyond the Norms of how things are I just heard the story recently um I have a friend who's a brilliant brain surgeon maybe one of the best in the world and he told me the story of doing a brain surgery where there was a big tumor in a part in the brain it was a very particularly dangerous operation because the tumor was right next to the part of the brain that allows a person to speak yeah and if the if the surgery went too far the person would never speak again and to do the surgery the person was anesthetized but had to be awake and had to be speaking the whole time it's the only way to know how far you can go so the surgeon is doing these the hiney slices of taking this tumor away tiny slices tiny slices in the person speaking to him and he knows well I'm getting close to the place I can't go you know I can't go past because then the person will never speak again and he's going in person speaking but the tumor's still there and he's going and he's going he's going and then he gets to the part where he's not allowed to go further and the person's still speaking and he does another slice and the person's still speaking he does another slice and he does another slice and he keeps going and he moved right through where that what the textbook says you can't do and the person's speaking the whole time and and he said it was me it was incredible it was an incredible experience and the way we thought the brain works is not the way the brain works and then I said well how much of the how much of what's taught today in medical school in the textbook in medical school textbooks of medical school how much of that information is accurate and up to date and how much isn't and he said maybe half maybe half of what's being taught right now might be right I'm at least half is either wrong or obsolete yeah that's incredible it's incredible that's incredible and and that's why it's a Folly to to cling too tightly to these beliefs or these so-called truths that you've been taught yes we don't know you don't know no we don't know we know so little and and I think the real um Power we can have is embracing how little we know to live in wonder you know it's it's a it's a much more beautiful way you you said earlier about giving up being right um when someone says to me you're right it always makes me uncomfortable I don't want to be right I just want to know I just want to know more do you know what I mean because if I'm right that means someone's wrong I don't want anybody to be wrong I I want us all to just find our way yeah you know it's not there's there's no sense of competition in it it's like let's work together to find our way as someone who's not used to putting that name on the front set for work they've been involved with doesn't make you uncomfortable in any way when I Rave about how wonderful I think your book is because many people struggle with price yeah I I definitely struggle with praise but because they put so much work into it it's exciting for me to know that someone can read it and feel um what I felt when when working on it so there's a a sense of satisfaction that it's doing what I hoped it would do which would be resonate with someone I did I purposely did want this book for someone to read it and feel it and want to take action that was in some ways the purpose of the book from the beginning there was a version of the book about three years ago which was beautifully eloquent but when I read it it didn't it didn't make me want to make art it was just it was more um it didn't do what I I wanted I wanted someone to read the book and want to write stop reading to go out and make something beautiful is there a contradiction in one of the core messages which is you cannot make art good art if you're thinking about the outcome or you're thinking about what people will think I'm and I'm saying this as an inquiry to to explore not to no absolutely not with any other intention I'm with you I'm with you because you just said to me that I really want people to be able to yes take this resonate with take action so is there a conflict there with those two white ideas and there is an aspect of this book where it's an instruction manual yeah and for an instruction manual to be effective the information in it wants to land if it was a book of poetry less so yeah and I'm hoping it's poetic you know it is honestly I like I like that it's poetic but ultimately there the reason I put the time in for this to exist was in the same way that when I go to the studio with artists to help them be their best selves and the idea of the book was to be an outgrowth of that where for the people I don't get to work with in the studio what's it like being in the studio what are the things we talk about um what are the things that we get to that ends up in making the things that we make and that's what the book is so if it if it didn't make you want to make something I would deem it not a success for me yeah there's uh there are so many wonderful sections in the book that are coming to mind for me at the moment Rick one of them is about um make art that moves you yes if it happens to move someone else okay great and if it doesn't that's okay as well but first and foremost make the art that moves you yes I want to etch that into my heart into my soul because I there's a there's this other Concepts in the book you talk about the the pressure of a loyal audience yes a loyal audience can begin to feel like a prison yes and I feel that's um it's a really interesting concept and I actually think every aspect that we've been talking about is relevant to every single person that loyal audience thing is you know the way you expand upon it in the book through the concepts through the lens of the music industry you know if you're a successful artist and you've sold loads of copies of your album there's a whole team of people around you wanting you to repeat the same this is the formula hey just just give us that again right and you know I have experienced a lot of um a lot of an inverted commas success over the past few years with this podcast with my books and what I love about that sort of idea is something I took some real time off over the summer spent it with my wife and kids who went away I was off social media it was just wonderful and I've really been reevaluating what it is I want what is it I'm here to do and I don't want to play it safe you don't I don't want to you know you could play it safe you could only take interviews with people who you know your audience are going to like and that's the topics that they want but I think that's a mis-service to them and it's a Mis service to myself absolutely because in the process of doing that you lose who you are yes and then you end up compensating for that with all kinds of behaviors that ends you up in the doctor's surgery asking for help right yes yes yeah have you seen artists fall into that trap absolutely it happens all the time just the the expectation it works in many different ways but the idea that if there's a group of people who are expecting a certain thing from you and you you no longer feel like that artist you know you've you've moved forward and your concern is that the audience hasn't moved forward it's a very uncomfortable place to be you can continue going through the motions in the old way and thinking that that will please the audience and it may or may not or you can be true to yourself and in that process you'll alienate some of your audience and maybe get new get new fans it's it's the reality of the situation I had that experience with um the band Lincoln Park Lincoln Park were a very aggressive um I guess the they were on the end of the new medal there was like a new metal phase of music and they were the last band in this wave of these new metal bands and like rap rock new metal and I had seen that they had grown past it and it was time to make their next album and I suggested that they embraced what they loved and to make the most interesting thing for themselves and they did and it completely divided the audience and it set them up to be able to continue making interesting things going forward and in some ways it's like their early career and now there's this new career that's much more uh there was much more it moved in more directions and it was more honest it was less formulaic yeah and it was fine you know it worked out fine but definitely in the moment I can remember it happened to me when you know I loved Radiohead when they put out kid a my first instinct was that's not what I want from Radiohead yeah it happens and now listening back is one of my favorite albums that happens we don't always know so even even as consumers then offers letting go of rigidity and expectation and being open to the unknown and open to things I guess that's an important lesson for us as well because you know that as a Creator yes but that was really powerful that as a fan of radioheads you fell into that trap as well absolutely absolutely yeah and sometimes again if we if you're if you have expectations or you see things in a certain context when that's um upset it's hard to know where you stand yeah and I've grown to really like that feeling it doesn't always mean difference not always better it's often not that's the other thing it's like just because it's different doesn't mean it's better and let's assume that because it's different it's not worse we don't know it's like it has to you have to experience it and see sometimes the shock of the news is very exciting and it's like ah yeah but sometimes it's a it's so fascinating I am I saw this thing on Kurt Cobain a couple of weeks ago on YouTube and there's something I didn't know I was a you know when Smells Like Teen Spirit came out I was what I don't know probably about what was that 91 something like that it's probably 13 14 15 you know really into music you know in seminal album very real very authentic and then in this video I saw a couple of weeks ago they were showing footage of uh I think Kurt Cobain saying that or I think was Dave Grohl talking about Kurtz that he wanted Devon to be the biggest band in the world wow that's interesting it was really interesting because I was also at the same time reading your book yeah and I thought well this is interesting I never would have expected that that certainly wasn't the I'm not saying curated image that I got given by the record industry but it's kind of raw authentic grunge bands oh Kurt command wanted Nirvana's be the biggest band in the world and I felt a slight disconnect there when I heard that especially going back to the idea that you can't make great art if you're thinking about the outcome I don't know if you have any thoughts on that at all yeah what's interesting is with the things that I've worked on things that I make I I the audience comes last I want to make the best thing that I can and I hope a lot of people like it I don't make it with them in mind because that's it I know it won't be as good yeah but when they do it certainly feels good I'm I'm not uh against success yeah at all at all and it's a it's amazing when it happens it's when that becomes the primary focus in the making when you're changing the art for it to be successful and I don't get the sense and I don't know this maybe Kurt Cobain wanted to be the biggest band in the world but I'd be surprised if he made creative choices to um that with that in mind and that's the key distinction isn't it it really is it's it's it's what's the intention in the making yeah again I I'm I'm there's there's nothing wrong with wanting and having success I'm only talking about when you're making something where does your focus lie for it to be as good as it could be because imagine that can work both ways like I can imagine and maybe you've worked with bands where actually better changed the Arts in order for it to be commercially successful maybe there was pressure from their record industry from publicists from managers who knows what and maybe in the short term they thought that was a win but I just feel strongly that meeting some long term you lose something much more significant than anything you might gain with that commercial absolutely and each in in that process of whittling away at yourself over time there's there's less of you to put into the next one there's less you know it's like you you really do like you get to a point of who am I if if that's happened enough times I mean I feel like for much of my life I've tried to perform and be someone who I am not yes in order to get validation and a lot of that has come down to the programs the the ideas I took on as a child um which was that in order to be loved or certainly my perception I should say because it's it's my perception yes my perception was that I'm loved when I get top marks when I get straight A's when I'm number one yes because my parents were always driving me to do that but yes you know just to Briefly summarize my parents immigrants to the UK from India facing a lot of discrimination a lot of struggle they just want the best for their child absolutely they they that was their way of showing love hey you be the best you can be actually you're not gonna have the problems that we've had so same reality but two versions of that reality two perceptions and so why I feel and I'd be interested in your thoughts on the art form of podcasting because you've now written a book you've been involved with many albums I know and I've listened to many of the episodes you did with broken record uh wonderful conversations that you've had with artists so I'm interested to see your view in the podcasting art form I feel that this podcast you know I keep getting stopped by people who are listening to the show and telling me beautiful uh stories of the impact it's had on them which is really nice to hear absolutely it's certainly not ego elevating in a way that it would have been 10 years ago because I'm not that person anymore I don't need that validation but I think it's helped me more than anyone like these are the conversations that um nourish me that fuel me that help me understand myself yes and unfortunately we're not in my studio you would have met my my videographer Gareth who is a mega fan of yours actually Rick um but something Gareth only joined the team maybe two or three years ago when we we brought video into the production process and Gareth probably spends as much time with me as anyone outside my family because he's in with me for every conversation he sees me beforehand he sees me after so he sees me with all the the filters off as well and he's been wonderful at helping us work that this idea of performance versus authenticity this whole idea that he would spot that I was like subtly different when the mic's rolling the when the mic's not rolling and so we've in a variety of ways just been conscious aware of can I show up as the same person same thought process same intonation in my voice everything as if the mic isn't there and it's been really quite um it's just been a phenomenal experience because performance I used to think performance was a good thing growing up you know I'm going to now perform on stage I was in bands for years Rick I've been a front running band's a very loud vivacious front man but that was a personality I put on to hide a deep insecurity I realized and actually my my only goal with each conversation is is it a raw authentic conversation were you as raw and as honest and as unaltered in your tone of voice as you could be and then if you have any comments on that it sounds that sounds um it sounds good like it's it sounds like I I want to hear it's one of the beautiful things about one that you're not a journalist one of the things I've noticed is that there's a there's a different conversation that you have with the journalists than you have with a person and again not nothing against journalists at all but the nature of a journalist is different the way the way a journalist asks questions is different than having a conversation with someone and I think the podcasting Revolution is about this the benefit of these long-form essentially unedited heart-to-heart conversations and it's something that we very rarely get to hear it's we we in in um in normal media life we get Snippets and sound bites and often the Snippets and sound bites are taken out of context or chosen for some Sensational reason and we don't we don't really get to know people and this format is incredible because we're spending hours together having a conversation and there'll be parts that are really interesting and parts that are less interesting and parts that are energetic and parts that are not and it's real it's this is a real conversation and I think it's more rooted in reality than like a curated experience of life it's more real when you were having these conversations for the broken record podcasts with you know the Chili Peppers Springsteen Lenny Kravitz I'm halfway through that one which is a huge Lenny fan it's a really eye-opening for me um how do you prepare for those conversations not much yeah not much depends on who the artist is if it's an artist I know I may think about it the morning of the the podcast and make a list of possible questions just in case it doesn't come up in the conversation like a backup plan um if it's an artist I don't know I may listen to some music do a little research I might even listen to another interview just to get a sense of who they are so I'm not surprised when I when I'm speaking to them um that's pretty much that's pretty much it I I go in pretty unprepared honestly that's interesting I'm trying to think in my head how would that be different for when you're about to work with a band or a solo artist on a new album different art forms obviously in a podcast you are required to not not necessarily the leader conversation but um be on Mike yes like if you if you if you're working with a band you've never worked with before do you go in cold fresh yes less prepared even less prepared absolutely because you don't want what anything to be colored by a previous yeah I don't want to have I don't want to come in with any baggage whatsoever I want to listen to what the artist tells me and I want to um whatever's interesting to me in the conversation I'll ask questions to learn what what is helpful for me to know in that moment yeah super interesting yeah and I have no uh agenda other than if we're going to make something together that'd be as good as it could be whatever it is so I I don't um like if there's an artist who I I know their music well I might have not not even uh on purpose there may be in the back of my mind it would be fun to hear them doing this you know in the back of my mind some style of some style of project for them to do but I would never offer that to start with it would always be a let me hear what you want to do or yeah and then I I you know there may be some idea that again a backup plan if nothing else works there might be an idea but I would never assume that any idea I had would be uh the right idea what kind of process do you need to go through or are there sets practices that you engage in I don't know artists rocking up a noon let's say in the two hours prior to that do you have to go through an intentional process of clearing out the noise so you are as fresh and as uncolored when you meet them when you hear their music like I guess I'm thinking you're driving to a studio to meet someone yes and you have the radio playing so you've got other music that might be I might do that you might do that I might do that but you're not worried that that would um because when we're never the same person are we we're not the same person on a Mondays we're on a Tuesday right so everything you do yes or everything you've done in your entire life yes kind of plays into who you are in that moment when you're listening absolutely and so how do you deal with that whether it's sunny or raining whether you know yeah everything it just it just is it's not yeah it just is and also considering what you just said that all of our Lives play into this meeting whatever happened in the last 10 minutes isn't more important than everything else so do you know what I mean in the context of a lot has happened for us to get to this moment and uh I'm just you know thankful to be here we mentioned ego in artists um I guess all of us have gotten elements of ego that can wear its head at various times depending on what's going on I would say both ego and insecurity like both sides of it are always at play you might see someone who demonstrates it through what seems like an egomaniac perspective yet underneath that is this very insecure person so it's it's always just like a sliding scale between uh shy and outgoing and uh wild ego tremendous insecurity it's just like a seesaw yeah that's an interesting Once Upon there what's it like for you because you've said earlier on in this conversation that you're still basically just kind of doing your hobby and yes it's create this wonderful life for you and sure it's technically work because there's schedules and obligations things you have to fulfill but really it's just you you know engaging in a hobby that you love yes which I think is everyone's dream really to be able to do a job like that I certainly feel I've got a huge element of that in my life now yes um if you read the Press on yourself it will consistently say things like greatest record producer of all time you know one of the most influential people on the planet or whatever kinds of things that Society has put on to you so how do you deal with that let's say you're about to go somewhere you're introduced like that it's it's intriguing for me how do you what happens in your minds when you hear that I I just think it's all like a funny story you know I I know that I know I'm the same person I've always been it's fascinating to know that that's the perception it's fascinating that some of it may be true some of it may not be true it's all just it's just interesting it's all interesting yeah it's like wow can you believe that it obviously when someone says something really good about me on the one hand it's like I'm glad they think that and that makes me uncomfortable both of those feelings those feelings come up um and it usually feels like I'd like that to get out of the way so that we could engage with whatever because it seems like it's not important to me it's the same the reason the book doesn't tell any stories about my life or any of the artists I work with it's a distraction from this from the material and my interest in life is in the material not in the stories about it or The Sensational nature of it I like the um I like to close my eyes and listen to the music I like to um engage in a conversation and you know meet somebody as who they are it's a very interesting thing that some people the idea of this putting on a performance or a facade it's um it creates a real Distortion in the reality field it's like if you're in a relationship with someone and uh you lie to them or they lie to you it's like are you even really together do you know what I'm saying it's like all we have is this shared understanding of reality yeah and if we can't talk about the same reality are we even do even do we know each other at all are we even in the same place you know it's like it's one of us is in a one of us is believing something that the other person knows is not true and it's like we're not we're in two different realms yeah it's funny that a lot of people when they meet a long-term partner the first part or certainly the early parts of the relationship is often facilitated by alcohol yeah if you think about what alcohol does to us and how it changes us and our behaviors and our patterns and our you know those insecurities can be dampened so it's interesting that many people Bond as a version of themselves who they they simply are not yes although it may be because it lets down inhibitions I don't drink first of all but I will say because uh alcohol lowers inhibitions somebody might say something that they would hold back that's true in polite company yeah nothing's too in the extremes hey it's no it's hard to know it's hard to know hopefully also if someone meditates that might be the case they might be real you know they might be real have you ever had a case where you felt that artists in your presence because of the the story around you feel unable to share their truth oh man this you know Rick Rubin says the vocal needs changing there or Rick Rubin so guitar isn't quite right there like have you ever have you ever detected you know maybe some people Pleasers or people who felt quite insecure not trusting themselves in your presence because of this story albeit a subjective story because art is subjective um have you ever detected that it has probably happened the nature of the process is it's a long process yeah and like maybe when we first met each other we had thoughts about each other whatever it is yes but now that we've been talking for however long we've been talking we're just talking it's like it's like that it's like whatever uh ideas anyone comes in with get dispelled very quickly when you just have a conversation and it just becomes people talking yeah this is one of the reasons I I do long form yeah uh and so the interesting it really speaks to to some of the ideas in the book this idea that you make the art you want to make that's in your hearts because as we're having this conversation Rick you know it's just over four and a half years since this show started and uh it's funny just before we started you said oh you got in early and I was like no when I started podcasting I thought I was late yes uh I thought oh man this has been going for years you know is there any room and you know I I I'd like to believe that there's always uh space for Quality content absolutely you I have to believe that absolutely um otherwise what's the point absolutely um but at the time in the UK podcast industry what they what they would say is that you cannot or you should not do a podcast more than 40 minutes long yeah the average commute time is 40 minutes that's how long they should be and my first few were at that length I just something didn't sit right with me and over the next few months little by little they started getting longer and longer and longer and as they got longer they got more and more popular which I found was really really interesting and there wasn't that many people on this side of the Atlantic at that time doing long form you know there was you know like Tim Ferriss in America and Rich Roll these guys were in great long form there but it wasn't really happening here it started to change a little bit here but still there's a bias towards shorter content which I found interesting but I think this speaks I think to the message you've tried to put out throughout your career that make the art that moves you how do you see the selling off the Arts compared to the making of the Arts and it's something you said before Rick about when Snippets are taken to be sensationalist or whatever then that can also be a conflict I I I really struggle with that with this show because the conversations are 90 minutes to two hours maybe two and a half hours but then we will then take clips to put on platforms like Instagram to raise awareness of hopefully a wonderful to our conversation yes but it's almost in conflicts with what we do because not really because that's a commercial okay it's a different it's a different it's different you're okay with that absolutely ethically you think that's okay absolutely because again it's if you want more this is where you're doing that in service of this you're doing the short form to draw attention to the long form and the long form is the the thing that you are making that you're proud of you you any way that you can spread the information in a way that someone engages with the thing that you're doing that seems okay yeah it's a different thing it's like same like any thoughts about how to release a release a project how to put it into the world that starts after you've made it you make it first and it's just a whole new job that starts after you've made the art as good as it could be then okay how are we gonna turn people on to this if you start thinking about that before it's gonna undermine the the DNA of it yeah it becomes a mark you know the the project becomes a marketing part of a marketing vehicle yeah but if you make this beautiful thing first and then okay it's done I've signed off the Art's done now how do we turn people on to it and then it's a whole new really creative adventure and what is it a different skill set completely different completely different yeah you said you've been writing this book for seven years yeah for over seven years around seven years the process started seven years ago I'm interested in your philosophy on deadlines did you have a deadline for this book I did not so The Wider question is for me the wider question is how do you know when the art is finished and can be shared and released something I learned through the work working on the book is this something I'm not not good at or at least wasn't good at prior to the book I'm not a great finisher I'm a better experimenter than a finisher so I can Tinker away for a long time finishing is difficult I like I love when it's done so I don't have to think about it anymore I like that I like when it's done but getting to the point of saying it's done that there are no more options is a you know closing options is not something that that's easy for me to do what I came to realize is that there are different points in a project and in the book we talk about a seed phase where you're collecting ideas the experimentation phase where you're taking those seeds and seeing what they can turn into then there's a craft phase where after the seed germinates now we bring our own filter into it to see if we can um how can we shape this thing that the Universe wants to give us and then the Final Phase is editing and all of the pieces of the finishing part and in the past I looked at those all as part of this open-ended it can go on forever yeah and I came to realize the only parts it's really the first especially the first two and sometimes some of the third step where we need time but the finishing the last piece of it you can set a deadline there and it actually might be a good thing and it's not and again I only learned that through working on the book and seeing where my method doesn't work as well as it could yeah that we've already done all the tests now it's purely there's no there really isn't more experimentation to do we've cracked the code and once we've cracked the code setting a time to get it out is can be a really really helpful thing yeah I found that so interesting right something I've thought a lot about and I guess I have a slightly different perspective and I wonder there's no right or wrong also it's like that I just wonder what you're you know you're someone who I I always have a huge amount of respect for so I'm I'm you know fascinated by your opinion on this if I didn't have deadlines there's no way I would have written five books in the past five years yes no way yes it just would not have happened yes and I have some author friends one very successful author in America who you know four or five years you know he'd had a big hit book and you know it was changing people's lives and four or five years he's I'm still working on my boat still working I said hey honestly I think you need a deadline because I've heard some of you early stuff three years ago it was great um because I'm not quite I've still got to work through the ideas and I get that I don't think there's a hard and fast rule but my view has become and I guess we all tell ourselves the story that works that suits our life so maybe I'm telling myself a story here but I just see a piece of art as a snapshot in time yes because that's all there ever can be so when I finish a manuscript what I've it's been through edits tweet said I've gone away from I've come back to it and it's the date to go to print and which Publishers we cannot make any more changes even if you send us any some of those emails in a few weeks like you've done before yes we're done now yes I've learned to embrace that again oh that's part of the process it can only ever be as good as I can make it at the point they press print yes because my thoughts about these ideas don't just suddenly stop yes so even when it's being printed I'm seeing things in the world I'm coming up with new ideas oh had I if I could change that manuscript I would yes and so I I give a lot of authors come to me for advice and I say guys listen take the pressure off yourself right it's a snapshot in time true sorry interrupt if you are enjoying this content there's loads more just like it on my channel so please do take a moment to press subscribe hit the notification Bell and now back to the conversation so what's your perspective on that given what you just said because it's it's similar but it's slightly different isn't it it is it's um I I do believe that it works a snapshot in time I think that's in some ways without knowing that it's nearly impossible to put anything out yeah so it is true that it's a snapshot in time and it's all essentially a diary um I I think it really depends on what it is that you're making like also if you're let's say you're a newspaper reporter and the newspaper comes out every day obviously the amount of time and attention that goes into each article is going to be different than if you're writing the the one book you write a year and if you write one book every five years the time and attention that goes into that book is going to be different than the one that you write in one year it just is the nature of time and I don't think there's a a correct schedule for any of these things you know you're on the schedule of this is what I can put out once a year and this is the schedule I like and there's nothing wrong with that there's certain art certain musicians who put out an album every three to you know three or four years and then there are some artists who put out an album every year and one's not right and one's not wrong it's it's uh and there's also a habit involved I know um with the artists that I work on I've worked with for a long time we tend to overwrite I I like this process of like for example with the the chili peppers if they're going to be uh 12 songs on an album we might record 30 or 35 songs we might finish 35 songs to have 12 on an album so every album we put out in some ways is a greatest hits of three albums put into one and that's just a habit I got into of uh and and not all artists will go you know not all artists are up for that some artists you know write eight songs and think okay maybe I need one more to be done and that's all they're willing to do so it really depends on it depends on the artist and again there's no right or wrong these are just different ways of approaching it yeah there is there is I do believe that the more you have to choose from chances are it'll be better I think you know if there's who's to say that the first five songs you write are going to be better than the last five of 20. I don't know we don't know and we won't know that till we get to the 20. yeah because in the moment you think those first five are the best five absolutely you think oh man these are awesome yeah definitely going on the elbows yes yeah yeah so it's hard to say it's really hard to say yeah I remember um an interview Bono gave in the 90s about the pop album and I think this illustrates the point beautifully for good or For Worse potentially but he said words to the effects off and you may know this better than than me being so close to the music industry like being in the industry but you know as a Avenue music fan I would consume CDs music read interviews by bootlegs everything so I would the bands I liked I knew everything about them um Bono said that pop wasn't finished when they put it out the problem was that they had a sold out stadium tour across the world but the pop stadium tour so they just had to put the album out as good as they can make it at that time yes and over the first 12 months on tour it says these songs evolved hugely to the point I think where had they recorded it or had they finished the album A year later it would have been a different album yes and I think that it's funny how back then I wasn't um it wasn't a doctor I wasn't a podcast host I wasn't an author something about that stuck in my brain from the 90s oh oh there was a deadline but it wasn't quite ready and I think I have thought about that interview so much over the past years as I've gone into this now public facing creative career as a podcaster and as an author and it I think that has also helped me realize or come to the conclusion that it's only Everest snapshot in time yes I've heard a different version of that story that the album was actually better earlier oh wow and that they went past it and that there were times that there were like rough mixes of the album that were much better than the album I don't know if that's true but it's just interesting it's interesting even for the Same album was it too early was it too late who knows and I guess you presumably will have been in that position before was it was it better before we started fasting around and chasing things was it better three weeks ago I'm really into this yeah and uh I never assume that because we work on it longer it's getting better longer does not make it better same with writing yeah you could sometimes go I have it oh my god I've messed it up now I've tried to elongate that points yes and that's where collaboration comes in it's absolutely it's better before absolutely and also we can even do it with ourselves because I always refer back like um there'll be a moment when I feel like we have something like early in the process of like this this is the clue of what we're gonna you know like this the the seed that we love the the demo the uh it might even be a snippet of just uh the way the feel of a certain piece of music or it could be a tiny little fragment but this fragment is the reason we're gonna go on this journey I always refer back to that fragment later on and say are we as good as the fragment are we better than the fragment are we worse than the fragment because if it's it's fine to be different than the fragment but if it's not at least as good as the fragment it's all been a waste of time that must be really hot yeah well I'll give you a specific example the first album I put out with Johnny Cash was essentially Johnny Cash in my living room playing me songs on a guitar that was not the intention for that album the original intention was those were we were figuring out what songs to do he was demonstrating the songs for me and then we went to different Studios with different bands and tried recording the songs in different ways and none of them were as interesting as what he played in the living room for me and that's what ended up being the album for many people because they went to the issue and expense of going into the studio with musicians the studio version would be the album in our case it's like what's the best of what we have well actually that original homemade demo was more interesting than the produced version so we put out the homemade demo version is it possible for that to be a perfect album I don't know there are some that when I listen to them they feel perfect to me and and when I say perfect like perfect and it's with all of its imperfections like perfect for what it is you know for me when I listen to The White Album it feels like I wouldn't change anything you know I mean not that I could but when I listened to it's like yeah that's how that goes is it the Angelo album called Voodoo that I love I wish I made that album It's A Beautiful album and that one when I listened to it like there's nothing else like that it's so good yeah but uh love forever changes is one that um when I listen to It's it's a unique one-of-a-kind album no one made an album before it or after it like it and it's magnificent so interesting he said to you yeah it's only to me exactly you can only ever be no there's and there's no there's no and I'm sure that there are many fans of you know their favorite artists made albums that are that in their mind are perfect and it's great it's great it's only we all have our own stories you know it's nothing nothing is true it's how we perceive it I've struggled with perfectionism a lot of my life and um I've again I I keep bringing up how this podcast has changed my life one of the things that's done that I haven't mentioned so far is it's helped me to embrace imperfection yes yes because on these long-form conversations it's not about perfection actually if there's a stumble if you don't quite get your words out the right way if someone comes in with coffee it's I think that's the vibe you know it's the I think I think podcasts are the modern day campfire in a massive way I think that's why these long form conversations are taking off all around the world people are feeling a deep sense of connection I remember when I was at University Edinburgh where I was at Medical School I played in a band that's kind of a huge Focus for me in Edinburgh and we were in the studio near Edinburgh airport called split level and it was really exciting for us because it was the first time we'd been in a recording studio you know so you know you're a Young Band trying to make your way and oh this is a studio and again I look back now and think I would bring perform oh I mean it's in the studio so it's got to be a certain way which again is I didn't realize at the time actually but it's taking you out of authenticity and into a some sort of performance aspect which I thought I needed to do but I remember there was a there was a song I wrote called tell me why and we went in there all weekend I must have recorded a vocal track 30 or 40 times oh no it's not quite right not quite right and then with the engineer we went through line by line picking the perfect line and the finished version or that iteration probably had 20 different takes in it each line perfect in its own right you play it afterwards sounded awful and I was like I don't get it I don't think there's 20 perfect lines in there but the soul was missing there was just something so I think I didn't realize at the time I can articulate it now looking back but is that something you've seen happen in the studio before is that something you still experience absolutely and we'll you know we'll often do multiple vocal takes and put them together and sometimes it's not about looking for Perfection it's looking for the thing that interests you you know you're you're listening for which lines sound interesting and which ones work best together more than is each one perfect but there are lots there are lots of Records where um lots of recordings where every line is perfect and they work you know if we listen to uh Earth Wind and Fire records are fairly perfect and they're magnificent yeah so again there's no right or wrong that's not right or wrong no for sure I mean music has a way of just doing something inside to people that I think very few other art forms can do um and I guess we all experience it definitely I've always like I've always thought I viscerally can feel certain things in music I know you've worked with Chad Smith on many occasions of those Chili Peppers he's one of my favorite drummers and for me when I hear I've always felt this like Chad's can play what is seemingly a 4-4 Rock beat but I feel like he's talking to me yes through that any of the drum or drum designer would play it would just sound like a very metronomic um static 4-4 rock beats yes but Chad seems to bring it alive as if those drums are talking to me like he's having a conversation with me and I remember when I saw him alive in Manchester a few years ago it was just incredible how I don't know what is it with him what you think it is I mean it's unbelievable and it's true with the they're the musicians who who just transcend their instruments he's one of those people where it what he's what he's playing doesn't have to draw attention to itself he can play the simplest thing yet you can feel it's different than the way anyone else plays it and it's and it it just lives in a different way it's true with uh guitar players true with musicians it's true with great bands yeah what makes a band great usually is the way each of the members feel the music the differences between each of the way the members feel the music like in um in Metallica the drums push ahead of the guitars yeah in AC DC the drums lag behind the guitars and that's part of the sound of those bands it's it's the imperfection that's what makes it sound that that the tension created by the way each musician interprets the music and the different timings combined together to make this sound that's bigger than everybody playing it exactly precisely correctly yeah I think there's a lesson in that for all of us in our relationships in our lives in so many ways Rick you've been public about your struggles with depression in the past what if you could sort of talk us through what happens one of the key elements of that for me is that you have said that you feel more grounded now than you did before you suffered from depression yes before I suffered depression I felt more like um a sense of um this will sound funny I guess the best way to say it's like a superhuman feeling of like nothing nothing um nothing could affect me and once something affected me it's much more rude I would say now I'm more grounded and rooted in reality where before I might have been more um and another right word for it yeah I can't think of the right word but just not um I wasn't able to empathize as much with other people's problems before because it didn't seem to me like it was possible like I didn't have an understanding of what difficulties felt like because it I was apart from it yeah and when I say that I still had difficulties but but they were manageable depression is different than regular difficulties yeah you know there's a difference between not being able to accomplish something you want and feeling hopeless they're two different things or feeling so bad and not understanding why you know it doesn't the thing about depression that's so crippling is that it doesn't make sense uh it's not rooted in outward my experience of it it wasn't rooted in what was going on in my world yeah it was just something um triggered this emotional response that I'd never had before and I felt like I was dying and this wild experience and it lasted a long time it was a comment wasn't it made by someone it was just a comment and it was a comment that anyone else heard the comment in my position would have been like okay we'll deal with it when we get back but for some reason it was um it touched a nerve of vulnerability that had never been touched in me before was it that I guess as an adult you'd had huge amounts of success in music right from the get-go or was it to do with I don't know elements of your childhood was it happy peaceful was it did it go without I think you've said once before that you hadn't really had to overcome many obstacles so when that happened you had no tools to deal with it that's exactly right that's exactly what it was I I it was an idyllic childhood absolutely I was an only child I was uh I would say I was spoiled although I didn't I wouldn't I don't know that I necessarily acted spoiled but I didn't [Music] um my wants were met in childhood and and then had great success before I even knew that I was started a career so I wasn't prepared for any type of um it's and I guess what it really had to do with the sense of support so I always had the sense that my parents supported me in anything that I wanted to do that's the way they raised me was like you're great you could do anything and we will support you to the end of time and then when I had success in music the powers that be in music when you're successful are very supportive so I had this ramp of support and then when I turned 33 um someone questioned it for the first time and again it was minor it worked out it actually ended up in a better place than it would have been had it not happened it was all fine but I just didn't have the I didn't know how to deal with it and without even knowing what was happening because I didn't really know what Depression was I didn't know what a panic attack was I just knew that I couldn't sleep I couldn't breathe and I thought I was dying it was wild wild experience and did you at the time know with your rational mind this is nothing no so it wasn't that you knew cognitively this is nothing I shouldn't be ratting like this but I am you just didn't know did you feel out of control absolutely but but not in a way I felt out of control in a way that I didn't understand I didn't understand what was happening yeah it none of it made sense the way my body was reacting didn't make sense felt like I had no control of myself I had no control because again I can't say that what what the comment was anything that set me in the moment wasn't like that it was more of just a it was like a question mark but somehow it like plant to deceited me or or like um it's like it let the air out of my balloon that's what it felt like do you still consider yourself someone who suffers with depression I would say I I can be moody I I don't I I'm not really felt true depression in some time although I've had two big bouts of it in my life that first one and then it happened again years later um not as bad the second time as the first time and not since a none since changing my schedule being in the sun changing my diet all of those things really have helped oh wow so since obviously we talked about it early on in this conversation since you were with Phil since you lost your weight you had the Vitality change your diet yes see natural lights yes then you haven't had any since then no I will say I still can be moody for sure yeah but never like I don't I don't think that I crash the way I did you're well known for doing sauna and cold plunge yes uh I heard the podcast you did with Tim Ferris a few years back in the sauna was that in your house it was yeah I mean I it was pretty awesome listening to it I was thinking how how is no one burning themselves here or it was really it was difficult um it was difficult and he had it where we were holding the mics which was insane so we had the mics wrapped in towels to be able to hold them and every on occasion you'd touch the metal you know burn your hand I mean first of all why did you elect to do that podcast with Tim it was my idea it was it was actually my condition for doing the podcast was I'll do it if we do it in the sauna and the reason was um at that point in time I hadn't done very many interviews ever yeah and I had never done a long form interview and I thought to take away any apprehensions that I have one of the things that we uh our friends uh my friend Gabby Reese yeah she calls it the truth box and the we noticed over time from doing sauna altogether that the conversations in the sauna get really good and really real and I think any um any pre any protection you have up goes away in the sauna to protect yourself from the heat so you're so focused on the discomfort of the Heat that what you say is uh very pure yeah and I thought if I do this with you and I met him but I didn't really know him very well then I said let's do it in the sauna because I know the conversation will be really real yeah so let's do that yeah that's awesome yeah I mean you should have said we could have turned the air conditioning off at the start it's pretty cool um and why do you use sauna and coal plunge oh like when did you bring that into your life why did you bring it and then I guess what kind of impact has it had um started in probably could be as much as 10 years ago now after you suffer with depression for the first time much after long after but was this part of the process of you on this health Journey trying to use this is after I started training yeah um I lost the weight I started training and got invited into a sauna with some sports friends of mine and they we would go in the sauna and it's in the middle of winter and jump into the ocean after and I remember being terrified of the whole thing and doing it and absolutely loving it from the very first time I did it and found that through these repeated you know four rounds of very hot sauna and very cold um it hadn't it had a euphoric effect I would say I never felt better in my life than at the end of a session of sauna and ice best mood I've ever been in my life and also if there were any if I had any concerns in life anything I was worried about that all went away in the sauna for sure that nothing after once you get into a practice of getting into an ice bath on a regular basis nothing else in your life will be a challenge yes it's super interesting I'm you know I I hear about what happens at LED's pool yeah and you know I'd love to chat to Lad at some point or Gabby so that'd be great so fascinating what they're doing something that actually it as we record this it's not it's not been released publicly yet um there's a shop called Erwin liquor um move now guy yeah he has got a new breath work uh course I think it's called breath hold work meditation and he was running them as the live four-week courses um and he did about four or five of those over a few months feedback was incredible I did one of them and he's going to launch it online fantastic shortly it is unbelievable now I've done loads of breath work stuff in the past what is different about this like just to just to give a Top Line overview I went in you meant to do two sessions a week for four weeks with with everyone on and first session he asks you to take a you know without any warning take it you know full breath in and hold your breath and I think I could I think I was actually in Sweden for the first session I was there uh one of my books had just come out there I just landed got to the hotel I could just do a minute for breath hold four weeks later and I didn't even do both sessions twice a week I held my breath for four minutes 30. incredible in four weeks incredible and that was an absolutely not a physiological adaptation it was all the Mind wow and and what why I feel this practice is so phenomenal a bit like what you just said about the colds yes basically you get to the point where your body is screaming for you to take a breath yes which is one of the most Primal um you know signals for survival yes in that moment he helps you learn how to quieten your minds so it's not about holding on it's actually can you get still can you get quiet can you almost get into a deep meditative State and then you think you need to be you've still got another minutes ago a minute and a half and I do many things to my well-being but I reckon you would love this it sounds fantastic it's and I having done loads of breath work courses this is very different and it's been life-changing like I feel if you can control your mind when your body's screaming you feel empowered you feel powered anyway you think oh the Train's there okay oh they're shouting at me okay no worries yeah so would you say the cause an element of that absolutely mental toughness mental toughness and being able to stay in it is purely mental it's not has nothing to do with the physical it's all mental it's all mental yeah out of all the things that you've done for your health and well-being over the years which are the most important ones would you say for you I would say um eating animal protein sleeping on a cold bed so that's either the sleep aid or the chili pad either either one of those or the uler those are the choices and Sona nice and I suppose uh whatever physical practice I'm doing and meditation that's another key yeah the basics which people have known for years that's right that's it that's it yeah and I think actually the diet the reason I I say diet first is if you exercise and don't diet it seems to mean practically nothing and if you diet and add exercise it it multiplies it's like it changes everything so I would say it's 90 it's 90 diet 10 exercise but if you do the 10 exercise you get 50 of the bonus you know it's like it's all out of the numbers don't make sense yeah the numbers don't make sense it's non-linear isn't it no no but I would say diet first then exercise and then the the extra bonus things but sleeping on colds is really profound really profound have you experimented at all I have actually I've tried eight sleep once as well I thought it was brilliant yeah um when you have that cold then and what I love that you can alter for your partner as well so absolutely different temperature and you can sleep with a blanket and be cozy yeah and still keep your body cool um I sleep much deeper on a cold bed and I like that bring anything with you when you're traveling to try and replicate that no well I in the different places in the world I have houses in different places and I I have cold sleeping in all the places that I live but on this trip I don't have it and it's and my sleep is falling apart there you go yeah to the point where you might bring something with you next time I don't know it's big to bring it's like you have to figure out a way yeah and figure out a way I'm hoping it gets to the point where it's popular enough where they'll just be everywhere yeah I'm sure it will soon yeah um be nice like a biohacking hotel that has only red lights at night and oh man the the lights in hotels at nights the vein of many people's existence the bright lights could I ask you a bit of advice sure almost feel a bit cheeky asking but I guess it's not in private it's what microphones are running that's fine you know if someone had told me when I was 14 I'd be sitting face to face with you the the the teenage wrong and probably wouldn't have believed it and over the past few years I've realized that um I wrote a section in my last one about worshiping the wrong Heroes that this idea of hero worship is fundamentally flawed it's an idea I'm kind of really working on at the moment maybe for my next book I think it's problematic because we only see one element of these so-called heroes yes you know we you know we think we want to play golf like Tiger Woods but if you want to play golf like tiger you also probably have to have the broken marriage the painkill the rediction the public humiliation or all all those things come with it not just the little bit you want so but I've I've sort of let go of a lot of that over the past few years and having met a lot of high profile and famous people and realizing that everyone's got the same issues it was a human yes it kind of helps you with that and absolutely and stop and stop elevating people but I for much of my life wants to be a musician so um I think even at third year at Uni I took a year out to immunology and I came back at Christmas I told my mum and dad I'm I said I'm quitting I'm going on the road with the bands and I don't think I really meant it I think I was trying to get a reaction and oh boy I got a reaction certainly from my dad's yeah and my mum managed to keep the peace and said why don't you just finish your Immunology degree then you can go you know she was just trying to store me and um huge part of my life in Edinburgh was playing in bands and writing and you know I remember when I left that number I came back to Manchester or I recorded my like a solo EP and you know there's a great radio station called Xfm one of the singles ended up being single of the week so you know low grade elements of you know in inverse Commons success but no record deal nothing like that and um I actually don't believe that would have been the right career for me anyway I feel that I have found my true calling over the last six or seven years you know pretty much since my dad died and I've looked at my life and now what I do in medicine with my podcast with my books I feel is form of Art and creativity that allows me to use the skills and practices I've learned to share with people which helps me and also helps them but over the last few years Rick it's been niggling away at me that there's a part of me which is a songwriter yes that is unexpressed yes and I think it's really become clearer over the last two weeks because as part of my research for this conversation I've been delving into albums I haven't heard in years blood sugar Sex Magic wildflowers uh it's just been such a joy and I'm feeling that visceral connection again to music but the problem Rick in my heads and I guess I'm asking you as an invisible now a visible life coach [Music] I feel I've changed since I used to write songs I think when I used to write songs I was very derivative I think I was trying to be someone you know when I was 13 or 14 I wanted to be Jon Bon Jovi that's all I wanted to be like I literally wanted to be him and I think some of my intonations yeah you know like many British people we put on an American accent when singing because I don't know why is it softer is it less harsh and now one because I recently have been picking up the guitar again I've got some verses going I've got some things going and I'm like that's pretty good and but I I feel that I've got old patternings in my voice that I don't feel authentically me so either will struggle through my podcasting and uh literary career yes I feel particularly my last book I found my voice and who I am yes but I don't feel and again I'm probably being harsh on myself but I don't feel that my singing voice yes is in the same place if an artist came to you with this sort of quandary uh what might you say to them I would say if you found your writing voice on your fifth book we can learn from that so it sounds like by the time you get to your fifth album you'll find your voice vocally and it's not going to happen without doing the work so so uh I would suggest that you write and record as much as you can all of the time and instead of thinking of it as um think of it as a hobby just think my hobby is I'm going to write and record songs and then there'll come a time through that process where you look back and go hmm I think this batch is ready to share with people look luckily you're not um you're not obligated to share anything because you're sharing the podcast and you're sharing the books and you're sharing your medical practice so it truly can be a personal hobby until it until it grows into something more than that which it will naturally do by itself but it won't happen without doing the work and it's only going to be the work that's going to make it happen yeah and do you think that element we were talking about before about Beware of the assumption that the way you work is the best way simply because it's the way you've done it I'm thinking like should I again is this procrastination should I get a different guitar which won't maybe lead me to those old patterns should I instead of the usual chords I would use to songwrite do I put a capo halfway up and actually try and shake things up try it all try all that try writing a song on the piano try doing all those things yeah see what happens try uh go go on a service that has Beats and you know go on Soundcloud and find a beat you like and write to that beat so totally Shake It Up completely try things see surprise yourself with what works for you I just I love that advice and um it said it's advice that I literally will put in surprises immediately beautiful and um you'll definitely learn through the pro you know you'll learn both through successful and failed experiments like each one will get you closer to where you're going and it's it's impossible to know until you try as many things as you can try and you'll be surprised and you'll say oh these these three things are all kind of good I've never done a mise way before or the old way is still the best or you won't know there's no way to know um and you also find out what's most fun like where where you what part of the discovery process is most exciting to you and that might work its way into it sounding a particular way if you're engaging in it in a way that um spark something new in you out of the excitement of the way that it's happening so much to think about it's it's really something that I just can't shake at the moment and I feel I don't regret not playing as much for the last six or seven years yes I've still got with my covers band in chamony in France it will go and play it two or three gigs every winter and yeah but that covers you know and that's nothing wrong with that people are having a good time we enjoy playing but I do feel do you feel there's a limit to creativity um I I what I mean by that is I have told myself over the past few years Oh wrong and you're using up your Creative Energy and I know this as I say it so I I guess I'm bringing it out into the open to yeah I'm in my books on my podcast so I don't have much left for songwriting no no you may not you may run out of energy but not creativity you know you may be too tired but that's all not not the in some ways the more you engage in in different creative practices the better they all get they all get better the thing that Taps out first is Just Energy you run out of steam but not not out of ideas or creative spirit that that's uh it's Eternal and forever I feel very honored that I've had uh some visible life coach advice from you about that I will be sure to let you know how it goes yeah I'm excited to hear um I've said it enough times but I say it again Rick this this is It's just wonderful this book I I treasure it so so much I've got this early copy on a bound you know prints out papers all my scribbles in but the actual copy is just beautiful um you've got no quotes on the book no and uh you were you were saying just before we started recording that that was intentional it was intentional for me and I was happy that the Publishers went along with my wish um most books have quotes on them and quotes are uh a marketing tool and it seems like if you put uh if you put marketing information on on something that makes it a product and I don't really think of it as a product so yeah that was the thought many different chapters in this book are there any that come to mind as ones that yeah that's the one that's the one that really helped me or helped you you know no I'm I'm continually surprised by it as I've had to read it to give you know either to read it to understand the editor's notes or read it to give my notes of things that I think can be improved I'm surprised by so much of the information in the book and it's not um it doesn't live in the front of my mind so it's uh it came through a lot of um searching and so much of the information is intuitive yet when I read it it's like oh yeah it is like that you know like that's that's my relationship to it is it's um it's it's a hard thing to describe it's it the it's the best version of seven years of thought that's not there now yeah Rick I don't know what else to say but thank you um I'm drawn back to the intro again nothing in this book is known to be true it's a reflection of what I've noticed not facts sent much as thoughts it is going to help so many people it really is it's certainly helped this man already in the past two weeks so thank you for that amazing um thank you for first and foremost making the art that moved you yes that's a key lesson for me and um Rick it's been an absolute pleasure thank you my pleasure thank you if that conversation resonated with you here is another incredibly powerful one that I really think you're going to enjoy when you encounter that really you wake up to creativity you wake up to love you wake up to compassion truth goodness Beauty Harmony Insight imagination creativity Vision you break up to a higher quality

Channel: Dr Rangan Chatterjee

Views: 428,964

Keywords: the4pillarplan, thestresssolution, feelbetterin5, wellness, drchatterjee, feelbetterlivemore, ranganchatterjee, 4pillars, drchatterjee podcast, health tips, nutrition tips, health hacks, live longer, age in reverse, self help, self improvement, self development, personal development, motivation, inspiration, health interview

Id: YS299z6ahsk

Length: 144min 18sec (8658 seconds)

Published: Wed Jan 18 2023