Timber Hawkeye: Every Breakthrough Starts With a Breakdown

every breakthrough I've ever had started with a breakdown and so and and people I know too when I witnessed them going through a really difficult time on the back of my head I'm not going to say it out loud but back in my head I'm thinking good something really good is Gonna Come of this you know taking on Han called it no mud no Lotus meaning the lotus flower needs to go through the dirt and the mud and the just all of that murkiness because that nourishes the beautiful flower that ends up on top so who are we to say don't have your breakdown what I think you do offer is here that when you go through the breakdown here are some tools to help you get through it and that's what I really love about it so it's not that we dwope you never have a breakdown we hope to be there with you when you go through it and hold your hand it's mine break down she's gonna break it down for you because you know she knows a thing or two so now she's gonna break down it's a breakdown she's gonna break it down Miami Alex breakdown is supported by cozy Earth I don't know about you but going to bed at a decent hour doesn't always mean you get enough sleep often I'm too hot I used to be too cold just like super uncomfortable but that all changed with cozy Earth bedding the softest most luxurious and responsibly sourced bedding on the planet I didn't know that she's make a difference until Jonathan told me they do he was right and that is why we both love cozy Earth it's like soft but also temperature regulating it it makes sleeping a real pleasure cozy Earth was founded to transform lives by offering the softest most luxurious and responsibly sourced bedding in the world it's made using the finest premium viscose from highly sustainable bamboo top designers choose cozy Earth and I get why their bedding is naturally temperature regulating you can use it all year round save 35 now on cozy earth hurry this offer and soon go to cozyearth.com break and be sure to enter break b-r-e-a-k at checkout to save 35 percent cozyearth.com break [Music] hi I'm I am Bialik and welcome to my breakdown this is the place where we break things down so you don't have to today we're going to be welcoming a beloved guest of mine that we've had before Timber Hawkeye he's the best-selling author of Buddhist boot camp faithfully religionless and most recently the opposite of Namaste I recommend you listen to the earlier episode that we did with him where he explains kind of his journey from uh he was he was born in Israel then he moved to San Francisco he kind of lived in like the corporate world and had all the things that are supposed to make you happy and basically had a realization that there was more to life um and essentially sold all of his things moved to Hawaii and then ended up um studying Buddhism he also works with the prison Library project for every book that you purchase one is donated to the prison Library project he works does a tremendous amount of work with veterans through the veteran Health Administration the Mental Health Association and um he has really touched on something and his his new book the opposite of Namaste which I highly recommend which we're going to talk about he's really been able to hone in on very very simple and powerful ideas like um what it looks like to actually be mindful what it means to set priorities what it means to be in acceptance and he does this all through a secular mindfulness practice and the notion is obviously we all want to be at peace both uh within and around us really really thrilled to get to talk to Timber again the opposite of namaste is a beautiful book and a beautiful really starting off place with how to approach a new way of seeing your life and being an acceptance of the way things are without constantly fighting which is what um which is what I've done for most of my life and very grateful that Timber's been part of my journey to um to not have to keep fighting so it's a pleasure to welcome again my friend Timber is very nice to have you here and it's very nice to have you here in person um it's funny because we have since you first came on the podcast when Jonathan was there he's physically not here now um we've struck up a friendship and it's rare to it's rare to as a grown-up at least for me you know find a friend that you kind of wish you had had earlier in life but it's funny to talk to you this way because we talk so many other ways that it feels very formal but for people who may have not heard uh our first episode I don't think it's fair to ask you to sort of encapsulate your life in under three minutes but just so people can know a little bit about you you you grew up in Israel initially and then you moved to uh the United States and you went on a path that many people go on you got a job and you had that sort of life um can you sort of tell us what happened somewhere in there that led you on the journey that you were continuing to be on now I realized that path wasn't going to lead me to where I wanted it to go and uh I was just following everyone else's example and so I thought well what if I stop doing what everyone else is doing and and I sold everything I ever owned all the stuff I accumulated that I thought would lead to me being happy and moved to Hawaii with just a volleyball net and a backpack and I just wanted a simple life and and I took it to the extreme where a simple life somehow turned into living in a monastery a Buddhist Monastery because nothing is simpler than that and uh I was sending letters to my friends every month to let them know what's going on with me and the letters transitioned for me just telling them about my volleyball games to telling them about everything I was studying with the Llama at the temple and then I moved into a Zen Monastery that was off the grid and so the emails stopped and that's when my friend said you need to get out of the monastery because you took a vow to be of service to others and how are you being of service to anyone if you're locked talked away in the mountains somewhere so I left the monastery but kept the vows and uh she urged me to publish all the letters that I had sent to her over the course of eight years and that somehow became the first book which pay for the rest of the way yeah is that under three minutes it does that was yeah that was pretty good so you um you do now live in the states and you um you live a beautiful and simple life um you I I think you've warned just about the same thing every time I've seen you not the exact same thing but you this is one of my I think one of the most interesting things that people might want to know about you tell us about your clothing and your decisions well not just regarding clothing but the way you present yourself so at the monastery we all of course had the same haircut we all wore robes and it was very much in line with the belief and the value that we are all the same when you're walking up the path to the meditation Hall you don't know who it is in front of you because it could be anyone we all look exactly the same and when I left the monastery but I was still walking around town wearing the robes the robes communicated the exact opposite instead of saying I'm like everyone else it said look at me I'm different and it brought a lot of unwanted attention and so I thought well how can I just blend in and just because I I mean the whole point of The Message is I'm like everybody else and but without a walk-in closet full of clothes and I thought you know just jeans and a t-shirt would have just been um sufficient and I've worn pretty much yeah the gray t-shirt I have five of them and for more than a decade I've that this is it and it's comfortable and how many do you own I have five shirts and two pairs of pants and yeah it's and it's before minimum before we had award for minimalism it was just a way to reduce anxiety to reduce decision fatigue to reduce so many of the decisions that we are bombarded by on a daily basis it's one less thing for me to worry about my hair my my clothes you know is just simple so um I didn't do this the first time that we had you on the podcast because I was just really getting to know you my mother actually discovered you and told me about you and had been raving about you and then I think separately Jonathan had discovered you and that's sort of how we um connected but um you know as I've gotten to know you I've been able to I think learn things about you that have helped me hear more of your message and what I mean is I think you know even me someone who considers myself like open-minded and interested in the things that you know that you revolve in uh mindfulness you know I had a friend who lived at uh tasahara and at the the Zen Buddha Center in San Francisco so you know I've I've experienced and you know been around some things like this but I do want to say that there's this notion of like there's got to be a catch somewhere like you must be meaning the the cynic that many of us are raised with is like well he must be a billionaire and he's just not telling us like you know we've seen enough documentaries of great you know leaders healers teachers and I know you don't call yourself that but we've seen it we've all seen enough to say like oh people hide behind um I'm just you know I care for you deeply you some people would hide behind this to be like I smuggle children like I participate in human trafficking or I eat pork when no one's looking even though I claim to be a vegan um no it it is but I think I think a lot of people have resistance you know even though you are very integrated in the world can you speak a bit to that I agree 100 because and that's why in fact the concept of transparency has always been really important to me in the very first book uh when harpercollins published it there's a chapter in it called repentance in which I list all these horrible terrible things that I've done in my life and and I I wish I hadn't but I didn't know better at the time and that doesn't mean that they didn't occur and so when they sent me the manuscript bad things like I said someone was nice when they weren't you mean like I've done some some things that I needed to repent for and uh harpercollins took that chapter out and they sent me the manuscript and I said where is it and goes well we don't we think it paints you in a bad light and I had them put it back in because it paints me in an honest light and it's also why I tour and speak publicly so much because I think it is important much to your point that people see it's not just talk like I didn't discover Buddhism or mindfulness and change my life to match it I was already living like this and someone pointed out to me dude you like a Buddhist monk and I'm like well what does that mean so then that just took like oh what I'm doing isn't so unique to me it's it's an answer to many people's question and it's how I choose to answer it but yes it's very important for me to have public talks regularly and meet with people so they can see embodied this is It's doable and yeah I there's not I'm not hiding behind anything when I moved to Hawaii I didn't have any money saved up but I didn't owe anyone any money either I think that was a really big transition point is I paid off my debt and I thought do I need what what I'm so used to sending you know the credit card company a thousand dollars every month to pay off the debt and then one month I was like this is the last time I'm sending them a payment what am I going to do with that extra thousand next month and luckily instead of thinking about all the cars I wanted to buy I thought well I don't have to make that extra thousand so it became a game of well instead of how much can I make it became how little can I make right and it turns out working in Hawaii 12 hours a week was plenty not because I have so much saved up but because I don't have any expenses you know when you cut your own hair I just did the math with a buddy of mine the other day because he was complaining about his Barber and he was late and all this stuff and like all these things I don't need to worry about and hair products and so I've been shaving my head for gosh 30 years now and we did the math if it was paying 40 a month it was like fifteen thousand dollars that I had saved just by shaving my head I'm not saying everyone needs to shake you also you had a beautiful head of hair I've seen the photos yes you do you you were you would still have a beautiful head of hair so but I would need products and haircuts and just time and and to look in the mirror which is just I don't know two minutes of my day that I got got back what'd you do with all that time in Hawaii so I started studying with a Tibetan llama who skipped to Tibet with um with the Dalai Lama llama wrenchen he's passed away since and he was really instrumental in pointing me in the right direction because I was so drawn to Buddhism when I realized it was so aligned with what I already believed but I didn't know there's 800 different schools of Buddhism and so I just went to a Tibetan llama because he was he he looked so much like the Dalai Lama and I was like oh this is Buddhism and luckily he laughed and said you know this is Tibetan Buddhism this is their way it's very complex it's very complicated and I said well I'm looking to simplify my life this is really complex and he laughed just like you did and he said if you're looking for a simple version of this try Zen and that's what what I did and and even Zen became to some degree more complicated than I care for because it's got a hierarchy that does not resonate with me at all and so that's why the second book was called Faithfully religionless because I have a tremendous amount of Faith but it's not ascribed to any religion or sect or anything of that sort Miami Alex breakdown is supported by better help when you're at your best you can do great 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their best offer yet it won't last long with Helix better sleep starts now Miami Alex breakdown is supported by rothies I don't know about you but I am planning on putting my best foot forward this year many of us have new style ideas and Trends we want to try or ways that we plan on becoming more sustainable in the New Year well refresh your 2023 wardrobe with rothies for Chic sustainable shoes that bring out your style a game each style is knit to shape with their sustainable signature thread made from recycled materials which makes them soft and flexible and they look great right out of the box they feel great right out of the box no break-in period maybe your Style's classic neutrals maybe you want trendy at Timeless pops of color well rothies has you covered rothies has so many options for new Staples in your wardrobe that you can feel good about Flats those are my favorite loafers sneakers and More in dozens of colors and prints and always more launching soon for stylish and comfortable shoes shop rothies get 20 off your first purchase at rothies.com breakdown that's rot-h-y-s.com slash breakdown [Music] another thing that I sort of wanted you to speak to and you know I have had the pleasure of um seeing you speak in person and um it's very different from what I thought it would be you know I pictured you'd be like standing on a a bema is what we call it in synagogue Dias uh you know like standing somewhere like a Podium addressing the audience right or like here's what I'm going to talk about or um yeah and what it is is and I'm assuming it's this way when you speak lots of places it's always a circle discussion sit in a circle and you sit with your legs folded like you do and um what what you do and and you also have emails one email a month you can get from Timber um you take a topic and that's also ties into the opposite of Namaste because it is really a book of topics um and there are kind of bites yeah I don't want to speak for you but it seems that it's as much about the receiving as it is about the giving people are participating on an equal level meaning 100 yeah like everybody I mean it's a discussion it's not a talk I don't I don't lecture right um there's not a single should statement in any of my books or emails um what we do when we meet in person is we take a concept a topic and we unpack it together and everyone walks away with something including me you know and it it provides insight and it would it would be really short-sighted of me to think that the way I look at it is the only way to look at it right there's so many angles and I wouldn't get to see them had I not invited others to participate in it yeah a lot of people are intimidated not just by you but by people who have had the kind of experiences you have um for me part of it I'm just gonna own it is is envy you know the notion of like selling everything you know getting to go away have time like have that experience um you know there are there are parts of me that that really want that experience and and also what comes with it you know the the time the space you know um you also you are a lot of fun meaning you also have a lot more time to do fun things to hike um you love ping pong um volleyball is a deep deep passion of yours I know it is a very deep passion of yours but I think part of the the trepidation that a lot of people have about quote people like you right is I know that you don't think you're perfect but I think a lot of people assume that people who have gone on this kind of Journey exploration commitment vows you know you consistently have lived you know by your by Your Word not perfectly but I think that a lot of people might oh he thinks he's so right so um I I know that you believe in a constant sort of smoothing of the edges but can you I don't mean to say like tell us all the horrible things about you but you're very human absolutely and and I try to be like I said as transparent as possible about my own challenges because I realize they're not my own we're all battling very similar demons and you're absolutely right that it does ignite in some people I like Neil Donald Walsh's distinction between envy and jealousy where Envy is actually very healthy it's it's that's why I use that word yeah you know if if a little you know the the little brother Witnesses his sister reach up to the doorknob and he's like oh I envy I want that reason I want that for me not I don't wish any ill will on her that's very healthy whereas jealousy is I don't I don't want her to have what she has because if I can't have it sure I don't want her to have it either so Envy is very healthy but it is that you hit the nail in the head with with intimidating because that's been a recurring unfortunate theme in my life where it's not because I'm perfect or pretend to be it's because I have so much conviction that is I don't want to say a foreign concept to many but my best friend said Timber you know you you like mindfulness like the next person but you want to practice mindfulness for about 23 hours out of the day and then maybe do something mindless for an hour and most people want to do something mindful for about an hour and then mindlessly live the rest of the day and that in itself is intimidating because I put thought into everything I think say do everything I eat everything I drink everywhere I go everywhere how I address an audience everything is well thought out for with the intention of meeting people at eye level right and I guess it I I don't I don't know why it's intimidating I I my intention is for it to be inviting but I I know intention and impact don't always align so my intention doesn't always resonate with someone when they read the book I mean my favorite book review was from someone who said I love this book I threw it across the room a dozen times you know and that's exactly the response is that I I want this like you said I am the but I don't want to do the work that's involved in getting it and and so if you don't do the work you don't reap the reward so are you judgmental laughs so when I when I ship books they always go they always go with a sticker on the back and it's non-judgment days here and I I we may have talked about this last time where philosophers and psychologists and Poets for eons have tried to Define what love is and I truly believe the Dalai Lama hit the nail on the head when he said love is the absence of judgment and so when I noticed judgment arise I to me is just an indicator you're not loving it's it's and and if your commitment is to love then notice that and it's not about getting to a place where it never comes up all of it always comes up anger jealousy all of it comes up but mindfulness makes you aware of it not identify with it and then say what what else can I choose right now so that's the invitation and so I don't judge I observe and that's gonna say you haven't yet specifically answered so no so so I think it's in um part of non-violent communication the distinguish between uh judgment and observation right and so I observe I discern but I don't judge and I think there is a distinction is that fair to say yes it's totally fair I'm laughing because I don't know if you will let me do this experiment but I think there's value in it sometimes I drink soda oh we we had this conversation no no and we said we will continue it and I thought it would be in private but here we are no I didn't I actually didn't think of it until now but oh boy no but what I think is what I think is important is I know for example I know that and and I did go I went quite some time without drinking soda this summer it was really pretty spectacular I mean I was I was very excited this is just cracking me up I was impressed with myself know where it's going but well no but I think this is not for first of all I hope you trust me enough to know this is not me trying to like make you look bad for thinking I shouldn't drink no no I don't think you shouldn't no well okay you're right okay sorry I'm sorry to go this is not me trying to make you look bad for acknowledging judgment about me having soda but I think it's very it's very trite to say like people don't have to agree on everything but I what I've realized is you have to encounter people all the time who do things that are you know inconsistent with let's say how you might want to do something but if I say to you I want to be a healthy person it's very clear to you and you're you're very loving about it I mean you are but you you do have an intellectual approach to say if these are the things no it's it's what you said it's not about them living in on with my values and right I believe is when they say one thing and do another I'm like that it's not that I don't like it it's it's this awareness and my invitation to hold up a mirror and go look what you're doing because again Gandhi said that Happiness is when what you think say and do are all in Harmony and so when we are suffering when we are in anguish it's because we created disharmony within us right by saying one thing and doing another right so that's when I my issue was hey you wanted to bring it up right no and someone I I respect so much um as you who is so smart and and the allowing room to go okay you know right this is you list all the reasons why you don't you've decided not to drink it right and yet you do right my mind goes help me connect those dots right right not because I'm judging you you shouldn't do that but because according to what you told me this is not in line with who you are right so when you're out of alignment I go well what can we what can we do to bring it back into harmony right because you're creating dis-ease within you right so that's the part where I get confused not judgmental I was watching an interview with Bill Gates who is arguably whether you agree with his point of views or not or he's a smart guy you know for for if nothing else very smart and yet he drinks like six seven Diet Cokes a day and I'm like how is the like smartest genius in the world like no doing this it just if I had one question for him that would be it how do you reconcile what you know with what you do you tweeted at him and asked I don't no okay I wouldn't even know how so just so I don't feel alone and you're not no no well this is Scott Scott do you have something that like you know you don't want to do but right a vice of mine is that I play too much video games oh according to you yes it's like a habit that I picked up I think during the pandemic and that it's like been hard to shake I would rather be working on Creative projects or something like that I recognize that it's kind of a waste of time but it's very stimulating huh okay and there's awareness there well yeah here's my and here's my question and I think a lot of people have a lot of these things you're up next Valerie so start thinking of your thing um you you know that there are things you'd rather be doing but I mean correct me if I'm wrong we do something until we don't get benefit from it right like it's hard not to be like I want to have a soda when I you know when it occurs to me once in a while but like I would imagine if you going cold turkey or something like that like there you gotta fill it with something and so in the absence of finding other things to fill that energy with we return to the thing and that's the invitation is you know my biggest challenge with Buddhism is a lot of it is about letting go and that's what you I think you mentioned with cold turkey and so my invitation is instead of the white knuckling it's the loosening of the grip which I think is what you're talking about every once in a while to do that I guess in in my mind I I call it that you know we we call it the train of thought and I think the train of thought for many of us stays in what I call me City it's everything that's affecting me like I'm bored I want to go to a movie I'm gonna look for a movie that's playing in a theater nearest to me what time does it start what time does it end will I get enough sleep if I go tonight and we still get to get to work tomorrow and that thought process on the train of thought stays in me City and it doesn't leave and I say just stay on that train of thought a little longer and go if you're bored and you want to go to a movie all fair that's fine and then decide okay well what happens if I don't support the local you know Mom and Pop Shop movie theater that's a little farther from me what happens if I support the Cineplex does that take business away from that and what happens if I go to a violent movie while I simultaneously say I think there's too much violence in the world but here I am condoning more Movie Makers to make more movies about violence you know so it's like stay on that train of thought Beyond me City and think how are my decisions affecting the World At Large and that happens at a micro level that's what I'm saying so when you choose to drink at lunch there it is there it is like I can choose anything and it's like that's why I say stay on that train of thought Beyond like okay well right it's it's you know what you eat what you drink what industry you're supporting what industry could you supporting otherwise right Etc Valerie what's your thing at the risk of sounding high and mighty my thing is work um I recently went from two jobs down to this one job on the podcast it doesn't always feel like work so I have guilt around that anyway but um now I'm struggling to fill my time with fun things I'm used to just working and then going to the next job and at 10 pm I'm sitting around going I could watch another episode of the show where I could just get something done to take it off my plate for tomorrow that's interesting yeah well everyone's got their something it's kind of the opposite of namaste well the opposite of Namaste was really just an invitation you know it's really easy to say namaste to someone when they are kind and gentle and patient and loving and holy and generous and Namaste just for people who may not have their yoga teacher explain it because well there's many definitions one of them is just the Divinity in me acknowledges the Divinity in you the holy in me the god in me sees it in you and recognizes it and says I see you I acknowledge you and that's easy to do when the Divinity in US sees it and others but what happens when you're sitting in front of someone who is rude and mean and and just a jerk you know how it's really difficult to see I see the Divine in you and so I think we need a word for those instances that's like the opposite and Namaste of like the ego in me sees the ego in you I like the jerk in me sees the jerk I know why you do what you do I was gonna say or it's even the other way around like I'm identifying that you're doing something that I have present right and guess what I've also done it spot it you got it exactly yeah yeah so the ego and means he's I know why you do what you do because I've done it I've been a jerk I've been impatient I've and that immediately eliminates judgment going back to your question from before do you it's uh judgment would by definition I think implies that one is superior to the other so this opposite of Namaste is is not about actually coming up with a word to say to someone out loud it's internally for us to go I'm feeling Superior and in order for that to happen I need to make someone else inferior [Music] might be Alex breakdown is supported by ritual you know it was kind of a hot mess uh literally everyone perfection's an illusion give it up already this comes from a vitamin and supplement company ritual knows it's basically impossible to get all the nutrients you need from your diet 100 of the time so they make this multivitamin that helps you focus on what's important like filling key nutrition gaps to support foundational help it is easy and painless to incorporate ritual 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around fear and resentment you know as as two of sort of the culprits of you know a tremendous amount of pain and suffering but ego is right up there I've been aware of this recently and I wonder if you can talk a little bit about ego because you know we we think of it sort of like Freud obviously coined a tremendous amount surrounding ego and ID and superego um but I've actually been noticing you know a lot of places where my ego is it's wanting it's wanting love you know it's wanting acknowledgment in ways that I'm now realizing oh that's just ego you know and because the God within doesn't need acknowledgment it doesn't mean love it doesn't mean right speak a little bit about ego because a lot of people think of like ego someone who's egotistical right and they're like I'm so great and blah blah but I'm talking about the ego that's like if I do a kind deed what if no one knows about it right and this is there's a you know I remember learning this in Hebrew school there's a it's called Jacob ladder it's like a a hierarchy of tadaka of of giving and the the highest level is not knowing who you're giving to and them not knowing where where it came from and I realized I mean first of all I just need to shut up a lot but I realized a lot of things a lot of times it's that it's the child in me that wants to be told like you did good you know you're a good person and it's like at what point and being a validation addict is something that people do talk about in certain in certain rooms you know I'm 46 years old like at a certain point I want to believe I'm just okay because I'm okay you know I don't need anyone and and I also like you see my life is like millions and millions of people at any point could hear something that I would like them to know about right and I feel a combination of you know joy and Dread when I share good works or at sudaka or charity that I participate in because I don't want the pat on the head for that I want you to then see that you can do that in your life you know what I mean like this exists but it's something that I've been thinking about a lot and I wonder if you can talk a little bit about ego well the I mean thank you for that lead-in because there's so much there to unpack from you know what does generosity look like and are we doing it for the right reasons so to speak because if you're doing it for validation you're not you're you're giving with it's conditional it's conditional there's an attachment even if all you want to thank you like but it could be a combination it's meaning that's not the motivation for why people necessarily do nice things no but if you get upset if you don't get it thank you or if it's not reciprocated or acknowledged even then then I don't know that I get upset but I really it it feels good when I get that you know the pat on the head I mean it's going to turn into a therapy session but I think what I it already it already is what I realized uh when I was trying to get the approval and validation from my parents and then realizing that's something I will never receive from my mother that was actually very liberating because then I said well then I can stop trying and that was so freeing because like why am I looking to get approval from a woman who's never approved of anyone anything anyone's ever done so it was like I'm trying to cut water why don't I just stop and it was so freeing because then I could do what I do because it feels right for me I don't need anyone to even know that I'm doing it and I've Incorporated it into how I work when what I what I do like whenever somebody buys a book for me another one is donated to the prison Library project but I'm not saying that because look at me what I'm doing I'm telling people you just did that by doing this right um and it's very empowering for people and I talk about it in the book when we break down generosity how when I first wanted to get the books into prisons it was really overwhelming because I got an invoice for what the paperback will cost to print and I posted it online and everyone was just as overwhelmed by the thousands of dollars it would have cost and no one gave anything it was just like we had this fundraising campaign and everyone saw the invoice and said well I can't pay that so no one did but then I changed tact and I removed the invoice and instead of and I just said just donate one dollar that's it I said no just just one and in less than 24 hours we raised more than twenty thousand dollars but to me that's powerful not because we reached our goal but because instead of empowering 20 people to donate a thousand dollars we Empower 20 000 people to make a difference so that's the idea and it's not that they can go and brag to someone I'll donate it a dollar right that's it's really about feeling empowered like I can make a difference right and you know that old saying that we were talking about this right before because I was just recently camping with a lot of mosquitoes but the old saying of if you think you're too small to make a difference try spending the night with a mosquito and it makes a huge difference so um but there you go I don't know if I could even touch the ego so there's the God within and there's the ego within and the way I distinguish is like the God within doesn't need anyone to agree with it it doesn't need validation it doesn't need recognition it doesn't need a pro it's good it's like it just sits there quietly going yeah we're good the ego is I compare him to a Donkey from Shrek whenever I think of my ego because it's not about destroying the ego it's not about killing the ego in fact any attempt to do away with it just gives it more attention and the ego just loves also giving you judgment and yeah all of that so I'm just like it's there and that's why in fact the cover of my first book is half of me is in the dark and a half and he's in the light and it's not about destroying one with the other it's about making peace with both of them and so every morning I say good morning to each and the ego within again the donkey is just like watch me watch me watch me and it just wants attention the God within does not need any of that and also um speaking of God you're not talking about um old man in the sky or Jesus per se or you're talking about something more um organic sure it's you know if you're not comfortable with the word God just put an extra o in there it's the good within uh you know and it's yeah it's not here's here's one way to say it I posted a picture online one time where I was holding up a big sign it says my God loves everybody and people are like what do you mean your God and I said well does your God love everybody and they go no I'm like then we there's clearly more than one because mine does and it was just a really simple way to go well why and then for them to then question why doesn't my God love everyone um the first time I thought about God that way I was actually I was in Israel and the soundtrack the first time I went to Israel Was 16. Rattle and hum was my soundtrack he says the god I believe in isn't short on cash and I remember that was like the first time that I was like that's the perfect way to sum up a lot of the Judgment you know that I well a lot of the a lot of the problems I have you know with organized religion um anyway but it reminded me of that like the god I believe in loves everyone right I do want to mention more specifically the book before we go on um to talk about other things your table of contents is called food for thought and I'm curious um I'm curious how you think of these chapters what I like to do is offer just enough information for someone to do the rest of the thinking I don't want to do the thinking for you and so I'm just planting the seed and then every person gets to water it and cultivate it and see how it resonates with them rather than me spelling it all out I I find when I read books that you know I want some of the thinking left for me to do rather than the author telling me you know while holding my hand through the whole thing yeah no that that makes total sense there's how many chapters are there 84 84. special number nope I it was with an editor for so long and when I got it back it needed so much more work some of them I just got so frustrated with them I guess that one's not making it in but you know every chapter is a collection it's it's from an episode from the Buddhist boot camp podcast and that's why and every episode is less than 10 minutes long which is why every chapter is only a couple of pages yeah and I think that's um that's the special thing about this book obviously all your books are very special but um this one's really special because um you can flip to any page and kind of get a little inspiration and yeah it is it's Food For Thought um one of the early chapters which is not why we're talking about it but one of the early chapters talks about um normalcy and it's something that Jonathan and I do talk about here and also as a parent it's something that you know that's one of the first things that in particular this culture teaches you to um be aware of is your child normal right are they developing along normal trajectories um you know is this normal is that normal and one of the hard things in being a person who has never identified as normal myself was when you become a parent you then have all of your baggage all of your fears all of your expectations about your lack of normalness and in some ways you know you want your kids to obviously be their own people and like that's the things you're supposed to do but also there's a certain comfort in knowing that your kids are also different because the fact is like you know as as my ex-husband and I talk about like quirky people make quirky people you know like I'm not surprised that my kids you know are experiencing that but you know I don't want them to suffer the way that I did from feeling left out separate different wrong and you this is something we've talked about and that you've also spoken about on your podcast and it does come up in the book and it's about neurodivergence and um this is a term that a lot of people have seized upon and embraced uh because well I'll let you talk about why why you like that word and what it sort of signifies for you and your experience well for many years I had a lot of resistance to any sort of label uh because like you said wrong bad different quirky and they all imply something that is less than desirable and I understand uh with parents wanting to make sure that their child is healthy and so if like I didn't start speaking until I was older than three years old and so as a parent we tend to think is is this normal but in the sense of is there something wrong with my child is it which is really is there something wrong with me and it I I I have such a resistance to that to the word wrong and bad and and whereas neurodivergent doesn't have any negative um implication at all it's a label that is actually very liberating because it just says I still function there's nothing wrong with me nothing needs to be fixed it's it's not typical but typical doesn't necessarily mean best it's if if there's a path up the mountain and there's one that most people walk up on that doesn't mean that the other path is wrong or less desirable it's just another path up the mountain and so that that feels very liberating to me because for so long all those labels that were thrust on me of you know you're so weird you're so wrong was it weirdo you said that was was your nickname um and it it leaves a a mark because you're then for the rest of your life trying to figure out how can I blend in and it's very liberating to realize I I don't have to especially not for so that neurotypicals are more comfortable I'm not responsible for you being comfortable um and that's very freeing because then I can just be me and how are you neurodivergent I mean that's where I felt the immediate connection with you we had from the very beginning is this cerebral and my neurodivergent well only this is the episode where oh the I didn't mean that I meant that I have a difficult time as you said in the very beginning of the show like meeting people make meeting people is easy making friends is really difficult and to immediately have a connection that goes beyond our connection with Hebrew and Judaism and Israel and all of that it was really this ability to think about things intellectually and break them down so to speak so we can examine them without judgment without even perhaps even emotion at least on my part and I feel there are certain topics still that when I want to unpack them with someone who can help me look at it without any emotion attached to it you're the person I would call I wish Jonathan was here to hear that well I think also um you know I'm thinking about what I was like you know as a kid and you know I'd say I I you know I think I blended in I blended in I think fine to some extent you know I was I was small and I was cute you know everybody was like oh she's in cute I was very tiny I was strangely small um and now I'm average um and you know at a certain point I realized I do I think about things differently I feel things differently um a lot of what I experienced as a child you know got shoved deep down and away you know to to be taken out later in your worst years your teenage years when everything sort of comes up and that's sort of when I first you know identified as so different and a lot of it and it wasn't because I was acting because you were not an actor on television you know I didn't I didn't always like the things other kids liked I wasn't interested in socializing the way other kids socialized I didn't like gossip I didn't like I mean I you know boys were really not um very friendly uh girls also weren't you know just and that was just my experience um but you know I I very early on took on on hobbies and things that a lot of young people didn't have and so I became a person who like yeah I like to read things that like I started reading you know French existential novels and like that was really interesting to me and like that may sound pretentious but it was deeply impactful for me to read Camus and for me to you know read um you know to read Sartre and say like oh someone's expressing something that I'm feeling and I did have a couple friends one of them was the the friend of mine who ended up moving to Tassajara and um living in the Zen Center in San Francisco but um there weren't a lot of people who liked to kind of resonate you know when I'd go to parties and people would be like smoking pot and I'd be like oh you just look like I don't know it just looks like you're having a kind of fun that is not mine to have and you know I was called a prude and I was called uptight and I was you know anti-social my parents you know I was contrary but now that I'm an adult you know I I don't like going out I don't like partying I like hearing puzzles like I want to contrast this before we I don't want to gloss over it how do you connect that to what we talked about earlier needing validation and recognition from others because if that was the case then then you would have just done the pot and joined and did the party to anything because you would have wanted to be liked by everyone I think that I mean look I I this is probably more of a question from my therapist I think that there's a I have a a deep organizing principle that I can't even compete you know and I think part of it was I I looked very different from a lot of kids and I looked you know growing up you know I was born in 75 and like I didn't see anyone on television that looked like me at all you know when when I told my parents like I think I should be an actor because oh so and so they I mean I'm surprised they didn't say like do you not see what's on television like and it's true I you know commercials wanted blonde-haired blue-eyed small featured you know children I so I think I had this deep sense and for me I do think a lot of it was you know when I was like I was flat chested I was really skinny like I never you know I just like there is a deep sense of not even wanting to compete but also a deep Longing To Belong but I just sort of like internalized it it just became like I'm alone and sad and like oh this is depression like oh this continues and then you're in like a chemical Loop you know like then you're just you know psychiatrist a psychiatrist and like this pill that pill oh one's not working let's try four at the same time and like different doses you know like then you're on that journey and I was really on that Journey honestly until you know until I got pregnant which is a whole other than shift because then your body's not yours your life is not yours and you see what my life is like you know I'm bound to these gratefully bound to these other humans but in the middle of it is also the validation that you know is a large structure of my life but not my motivation you know it's so accidental um that was a long Soliloquy but in in terms of sort of this neurodivergent concept you know I I like this notion of not feeling self-judgment and negativity surrounding things all of that was really yeah with with one sweep it was just oh I'm almost to see it as a gift you know because I recognize that it's kind of like when I had um almost you know anxious and obsessive compulsive Tendencies where I remember in therapy figuring out oh um I can use it to my benefit rather than my detriment so that the the obsessive compulsive doesn't keep me from going to bed at night if there's dishes in the sink but it makes me a really great employee because I've paid so much attention to detail where others wouldn't so it's really figuring out I've got this and it's not something that can be healed but we can learn coping mechanisms and that's why I love what you do because this is an opportunity to help everyone's kind of break down like it's not like it's you're gonna get better but you're gonna get better at at coping with it and that's what a great gift I don't know oh and one of the things that you know I'm often asked all sorts of you know silly questions serious questions you know I have to do a lot of interviews just in my life and a lot of people ask what would you tell your younger self and a lot of times when I you know hear interviews with you know well-meaning and often very intelligent and worldly celebrities they're like it'll get better you know like just keep and that's actually not what I would tell my younger self what I would tell my younger self is it doesn't really get better the world is still full of suffering and sadness and pain but your ability to cope with it will shift as you gain more tools yeah it's similar to the advice on Grief is that the the pain if it's if it's a weight it doesn't get lighter it just get stronger and are able to carry interesting I hadn't heard that and so there's and that's still growth it just doesn't look the way you know because we're so programmed uh to do away with that which we don't like as opposed to the Buddhist approach and maybe therapy even is don't do learn to live with it it's just there because otherwise you're spending so much of your time trying to get rid of the very thing it's it's just it's overwhelming your life rather than just yeah it's there well and that's also you know one of the basic instructions when you're first trying to meditate um do not imagine that you will not have any thoughts that are not consistent with the meditation at hand or the breathing the idea is you know if you're laying on a riverbed and things are going over you right like that's that's how it was described to me if you're laying in a stream and you're you know you are one with the Rocks you are those rocks and the water will just keep moving you know it doesn't need to be stopped it doesn't need to be you know it's just um you kind of let it pass you let it pass um in terms of the the labels around it because you know a lot of people are being identified late in life as ADHD or people who had never realized that that was often the root of a lot of their challenges many people are um I think getting some comfort from the label and many people are turning to medication which is a separate conversation but I'm I'm also hearing more and more people saying I never knew I was on the autistic spectrum and like getting to be like a full-on grown-up and it's funny because the point of a spectrum is it's a spectrum and that means both extremes will exist um but it's it's it's kind of neat having teenage kids who are tapped into a whole different aspect of culture through what they hear and you know I have there's more language nowadays for us to try to understand have a better understanding when we were growing up there was no it was either you were like everyone else right or you were a freak of nature right and now it's there's it's a spectrum and we have words and we understand and I think it's really beautiful because then we can identify it and and actually help strengthen the areas where you you're really good at like paying attention to something you know that I went back to Israel and I saw the kids that I grew up with when I was really young and I said temporary you were talking about meditation before you knew what meditation was but we didn't have words for it we didn't have the tools and it was something it wasn't something my parents could have even cultivated because we didn't have the vocabulary like I said nowadays there's so much around not just mental health in the Spectrum but the spectrum of gender identity sexual identity it's so wide and that's really beautiful because I am seeing kids now and you know I'm speaking in high schools I'm speaking at churches and there's just they have so much better our understanding of the world which helps them better understand themselves they have a lot more exposure to so many paths up the mountain where we were raised with this is how you've always done it this is how everyone before you has done it and this is the path you're gonna climb and if you didn't you were a black sheep you were excommunicated you were disowned and now it's like he's just doing his own thing well and I guess that's sort of it it's something that concerns me because I think a lot of the Work World the corporate world is still in many ways on that older tract of thinking and and it's funny because you know when I think about it in terms of what I want to let's say you know teach my kids about higher ability you know whatever it is you know there still is a notion of like how do we present ourselves it matters right if you're going in for a job interview well but that's the whole story about that can I share that with you yeah for sure because I because it's the notion of conforming right you have to understand you probably and I didn't right so that's why I want I I I didn't know this is where the ghost of some conversation would go but I I had left the corporate world I did away with all that I moved into the monastery my job there was in the kitchen so when I left the monastery I thought okay I'm gonna look for a job working in a kitchen somewhere like Whole Foods I'm like all right I'll work at the kitchen Whole Foods and I met with the manager of the kitchen and I said I'm used to working in the kitchen with 22 other people it was a silent kitchen we would prepare six meals a day and complete silence and she goes oh that's not what our kitchen's like we've got heavy metal going through the speakers and people cussing left and right that's not a good environment for you so she's like why don't we have you making burritos it's just like that works for you but I was walking home one day because I was working there and I would walk home and I said well what do what do you really want to do and I pictured a job where this is long before the books this is long before anything and I thought you know I want to get I want to write and it's like where can I get a job where they pay me to write and so I get home and I pull up Craigslist and I and I look up and there's a list in his alphabetical order under jobs accounting Administration and at the very bottom under W it's writing and I click on writing and the very top job opening was Buddhist non-profit organization looking for a writer slash editor and I'm like are you kidding me so I look it up and it's this international organization and they're looking for someone but they were looking for someone with like a master's degree and all these credentials and I have none of those things but I'm like this job is for me so I email them and I say you know I saw your listing I'm really passionate about this um I would love a chance to interview with you but I don't have any of these credentials like well it this came from corporate office we are just the local branch blah blah and I responded going that's all nice and fine but you don't get it this job is for me so they granted me an interview and I show up and at the time again I all I had was scrub bottoms and a white T-shirt and that's all and I showed up and they are all it's a Taiwanese organization and it's they're very they're in very formal attire and they're sitting very properly very upright and her shirt was like buttoned all the way up here and she's just sitting and just strafing no facial expression and she's tight you know and her hair is tight like it's so tight in the back just like everything was so but left pressed so and just and sitting all proper and and I show up and I'm like hey how's it you know and it was just this really interesting like juxtaposition of we're both here for the same reason but you're going about it very differently and and she's interviewing me and and she's asked me all these questions and I've sent her sampled writing and and the interview didn't take a turn until she finally asked me do you have any questions for me and I said yeah why do you work here and all of a sudden she broke down crying and she told me how she loves the teachings that their job is to translate the teachings from Chinese to English and it goes It goes from Chinese to English and chenglish to English and my job was to be in that middle part and she uh she started crying and she says the Master's values are so aligned with my own she started telling me about the masters of Valium and in the most inappropriate of places me wearing scrub bottoms and a t-shirt I'm not kidding you with her being all proper I take off my shirt because on my back in Chinese characters are my values which are in line with their teachers values and she can read Chinese so she starts crying she gives me a hug I'm uncomfortable but I'm like I got the job and I did and I worked there for years and it was wonderful and we traveled all over the world during disaster relief and translating the ancient teachings what does it say on your back so among other things there was the unconditional love the honesty respect and the trust and uh and it's all written around the cover of my second book which is a tiny little figure with huge Wings about Liberation from Conformity so he hears this and I never conformed to their way but they really implemented me into their mission and it worked really well especially when we went and did disaster relief work in a place like Samoa where they show up and they're all proper and Chinese and I came with this in the Hawaiian Vibe which when we were meeting with the chiefs of every village like sent him her to talk to them because he can relate to them so I was an asset because I didn't conform so yes while you can teach your children that there is a an expected Conformity within a certain Corporation but I would argue that if that is not aligned with who they are that's not the job for them in the same sense that if you wanted to go out to dinner and they had a dress code that's not where I want to eat right because I'm not going to change who I am I don't even know for what purpose like it just seems like that's just not the restaurant for me and you're like but the food's really good I'm like I'd rather go to a place with mediocre food that accepts everyone as they are rather than me having to conform does that make sense yeah so totally so I think there is room for a conversation about what is expected but then the the ball is still in your court do you want to play the game or not and much to your point with the meditation you described the creek and the water flowing through it for me it was always like sitting on the sideline of of let's say like a busy street with cars and anxiety might drive by and fear and anger but you don't have to get into every car that pulls over you just let him go and so I mean because I did I did conform to many jobs that I hated I worked for Microsoft because I really wanted that name on my resume but I would cry every day at work I would take a break to go cry in the bathroom it was terrible and at the end of the day no one ever cared that I worked for Microsoft so I wasted an entire year of my life thinking this is going to Define who I am I used to be so attached to my credit score and all things that never mattered but I thought because Society pushes it on you that your credit score matters right and how you look matters and and if you want to play the game then yeah it matters a lot but I just took myself out of the game before we go I have two more things to ask you and I think we may have covered this in our first episode but I just want to say it again especially for people who might be meeting you you know for the first time this time um you you are allowed to date correct you're allowed to say we're gonna go there I just knew that's right no but I think also a lot of people might be like oh sure your life is easy when you don't have to think about anything or anyone but yeah as I said there are over 800 different schools of Buddhism and they're not all the same and so especially in the Zen tradition um Zen priests can get married they can have children and I remember asking the priests at the monastery if Our intention is to live a simple and uncomplicated life yeah other humans are not right why would you be in a relation like that just sounds sometimes ask myself that but what he said was beautiful he said there are things you can't learn about yourself outside of a relationship that you can only learn about yourself in one absolutely and if your commitment is to growth and and maturity than being partnered is going to push all the right areas where you need to well look I'll be honest you know having kids is not for everyone but that's like a whole other level that I can understand why people don't necessarily want to partake in it is um you know it's a it's a real surrender you know that notion of like bringing something into the world that I also have no control you know ultimately over and you know if attachment leads to suffering like my goodness like to to nourish a child especially like to nourish a child like from your body like literally you give life to that human and then to have to you know emotionally take your hands off it at some it's very very um intense especially in Western culture when we yeah we link love and attachment to one another sure it's not an Eastern philosophy at all I mean is complete on loving someone and being attached to them attachment is almost the opposite of love it's control it's possessive it's my child it's like this is a human right they're on their own their own your children are not your children I mean yeah the final question is I'd like you to talk to us about cold weather because this is I think you know again like you you are a person you live in the world and I I think of you as having really really you do you have a very um you have a lot of clarity and and awareness about yourself and the things around you and how they impact you um but you have a reaction to cold that I don't say it's out of your character like everything we do is in our character but I'd like you to talk about because very human the way you talk about it well it's prior to moving to Hawaii I was living in Seattle and everyone was taking bets that oh after Seattle you're gonna move to Alaska aren't you because they just thought I'm just gonna move colder and colder and colder and at the time I think the government was paying me if you started a town in Alaska and I was like oh we could do Timberville Alaska how cool would that be and then I went to Hawaii and you know for 10 years all I had was shorts and a tank top and flip-flops and it just right up minimalist alley of just I don't I also I'm I'm and when it rains there that's just how it is right and you don't need to like put on a rain Slicker no right no yeah but the yeah whenever you just jump in the ocean yeah um I also have a I long sleeves anything touching me is is not comfortable for me so I have already this resistance to to that and so throw that with cold weather and I'm just miserable and so yeah there's uh and it's not aligned with you know being able to be at peace no matter what and I can be at peace with it when I have no other choice but given the choice right I would much rather be warm than cold 100 percent um it's been really really wonderful to get to talk this way um the opposite of Namaste can be um you can get it wherever you get books this is something I really love I think it's in all your books if you enjoy this book please share it with your friends and I just love that um and it it is um it's really it's really special to get to share more of you with our audience and there's so many people I know who resonated with the first episode I hope people will go and listen to that um anything else we should tell people about I can't think of anything else it's really a way there's nothing in the book we don't already know in any of my books I'm not pretending to be offering any new information uh I am merely translating ancient stuff to a language that people today cannot just understand but actually Implement into their lives and that's where I think some people's frustration with the books comes in because they're like I want to do this but it'll require work and I don't want to do the work but I want to get the fruits or the labor and I don't want to do the labor and it's like well are you upset with the results you didn't get from work you refused to do so uh it can be frustrating but I think in in the greatest of ways uh if if the books are anything I'd like for them to to serve as a mirror so we can look at ourselves and stop blaming other people for our own disease and just take ownership of it and responsibility for our ability to respond so thank you for sharing it with others um not just like I said like I said in the book yeah I remember with Harper they were so upset when I would tell people hey if you liked it share with your friends they're like don't do that tell them to buy more copies for their friends I'm like no just if yeah it's just about spreading the message and uh thank you and we usually end the episode with me saying from our breakdown to the one we hope you never have but you very wisely um were talking to me about how breakdowns can lead to breakthroughs often do yeah every breakthrough I've ever had started with a breakdown and so and and people I know too when I witnessed them going through a really difficult time I'm in the back of my head I'm not going to say it out loud but back in my head I'm thinking good something really good is going to come of this you know taking on Han called it no mud no Lotus meaning the lotus flower needs to go through the dirt and the mud and the just all of that murkiness because that nourishes the beautiful flower that ends up on top so who are we to say don't have your breakdown what I think you do offer is here that when you go through the breakdown here are some tools to help you get through it and that's what I really love about it so it's not that we dwope you never have a breakdown we hope to be there with you when you go through it and hold your hand from our breakdown to the Breakthrough that you deserve we'll see you next time [Music] [Music]

Channel: Mayim Bialik

Views: 29,638

Keywords: mayim bialik, big bang theory, amy farrah fowler, mayim, celebrity news

Id: QwQkdSAsQ2s

Length: 71min 1sec (4261 seconds)

Published: Tue Feb 14 2023