Oprah: A SLAVE. AN AMERICAN PRESIDENT. DID THEY HAVE CHILDREN? NEW EVIDENCE SAYS YES. Shay: THOMAS JEFFERSON IS MY GREAT-GREAT-GREAT-GREAT GRANDFATHER. Douglas: EVEN IN THE THIRD GRADE, I COULD SAY HE WAS MY GREAT-GREAT-GREAT-GREAT-GREAT GRANDFATHER. Oprah: AFTER GENERATIONS OF CONTROVERSY... OUR SIDE OF THE FAMILY HAS BEEN TRYING TO HIDE THIS FOR YEARS. Oprah: ...BLACK AND WHITE DESCENDANTS OF THOMAS JEFFERSON MEET FOR THE FIRST TIME. HOW DO YOU FEEL NOW ABOUT THE OTHER SIDE OF THE FAMILY? THEY ARE ALSO RELATED TO JEFFERSON. SURPRISE! THEY'RE ON THE BLACK SIDE OF THE FAMILY. NOW, WHAT HAS HAPPENED SINCE THIS WAS REVEALED? A FEW PEOPLE HAVE CALLED WITH SOME STRANGE REACTIONS. WHAT DO THEY HAVE TO SAY TO EACH OTHER NOW? IT'S "ALL MY CHILDREN." THE REAL "ALL MY CHILDREN." COMING UP NEXT. [ CHEERS AND APPLAUSE ] HELLO! GOOD TO SEE YOU. THANK YOU SO MUCH. I THINK -- I THINK THAT THIS IS GONNA BE SO INTERESTING TODAY. IT'S A STORY THAT'S 200 YEARS OLD THAT MANY PEOPLE REFUSED TO BELIEVE, AND NOW WE KNOW IT'S TRUE. THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO KNEW IT WAS TRUE ALL ALONG OR FELT IT WAS TRUE. YOU ALL KNOW THOMAS JEFFERSON, RIGHT? OUR THIRD PRESIDENT AND FOUNDING FATHER. YOU SEE HIM EVERY DAY ON THE FRONT OF A NICKEL, EVERY DAY. IT TURNS OUT THAT HE HAD AT LEAST ONE CHILD AND PROBABLY MORE WITH ONE OF HIS SLAVES, AND TODAY, FOR THE VERY FIRST TIME, THOMAS JEFFERSON'S WHITE RELATIVES ARE GOING TO MEET HIS BLACK RELATIVES. ISN'T THAT INTERESTIN'? [ LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE ] AAH! THIS 200-YEAR-OLD SEX SCANDAL RETURNED TO THE HEADLINES WITH NEWS OF SCIENTIFIC PROOF, NOW. WELL, WE KNOW WE'VE ALL HEARD OF DNA. DNA EVIDENCE THAT HAS CONFIRMED THAT JEFFERSON'S SEXUAL LIAISON WITH A WOMAN NAMED SALLY HEMINGS, A WOMAN HE OWNED. BEFORE WE MEET SALLY HEMINGS' DESCENDANTS, I WANT YOU TO MEET LUCIAN TRUSCOTT AND HIS SISTER, MARY. NOW, THEY ARE DIRECT DESCENDANTS OF THOMAS JEFFERSON AND HIS WHITE WIFE, MARTHA. CORRECT? Lucian: MM-HMM. YEAH. NOW, HAVE YOU EVER BEEN ASKED TO PROVE THIS? NEVER. AND, IN FACT, YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE IRONIES ABOUT THIS IS THAT THE ONLY PROOF THAT WE HAVE THAT WE'RE DESCENDED COMES FROM THE ORAL HISTORY IN OUR FAMILY. AND WE DON'T HAVE ANY RECORDS. NOBODY EVER ASKED US TO SEE OUR BIRTH CERTIFICATES OR TOOK OUR BLOOD AND TESTED OUR DNA OR ANYTHING. I MEAN, WE COULD JUST -- YOU ALMOST GET THE FEELING THAT YOU COULD SORT OF WALK IN AND SAY, "HEY, I'M ONE OF YOU," AND THEY'D SAY, "OH, WELL. YOU SORT OF LOOK NICE AND YOU'RE WHITE. COME ON IN AND SIT DOWN." YOU KNOW? SO, YOU'RE SAYING THAT BECAUSE, AS A PART OF THIS WHOLE CONTROVERSY THAT'S COME OUT, THE BLACK SIDE, SALLY HEMINGS' SIDE, HAVE, FOR YEARS, BELIEVED IN THE ORAL HISTORY, WHICH THE HISTORIANS -- A NUMBER OF HISTORIANS, NOT ALL OF THEM -- HAVE ALL SAID, "THAT COULDN'T POSSIBLY BE TRUE," AND HAVE DISREGARDED THE ORAL HISTORY. BUT WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IS YOUR BELIEF THAT YOU ARE A DESCENDANT OF THOMAS AND MARTHA JEFFERSON IS ALL ORAL, TOO. SURE, IT IS. IS THAT CORRECT? YEAH. YEAH. YEAH. YOU'VE JUST BEEN TOLD FROM GENERATION -- JUST ON THE BASIS OF FAMILY LINEAGE, AND EVERYONE JUST ASSUMES THAT YOU'RE BORN INTO THIS FAMILY, AND THEREFORE, IT IS. AND, SO, BECAUSE OF THAT, 'CAUSE THERE WAS A DEBATE IN USA TODAY ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT THE DESCENDANTS FROM THE SALLY HEMINGS SIDE, THE BLACK SIDE, WILL BE ALLOWED TO BE BURIED IN MONTICELLO. RIGHT. RIGHT. WELL, YOU KNOW, THIS IS REALLY "GONE WITH THE WIND." I MEAN, THIS IS ALL ABOUT BLOOD AND LAND, AND THE PIECE OF LAND IS JUST ABOUT A THIRD OF AN ACRE ON THE GROUNDS OF MONTICELLO, WITH A FENCE AROUND IT. IT'S THE GRAVEYARD WHERE ONE DAY MARY AND I WILL BE BURIED. MY DAUGHTER WILL BE BURIED THERE, AND MY WIFE. AND THE DESCENDANTS OF SALLY HEMINGS HAVE HELD THAT THEY'RE DESCENDANTS OF THOMAS JEFFERSON, AND THEY OUGHT TO HAVE THE RIGHT TO BE BURIED IN THE GRAVEYARD. AND THE MONTICELLO ASSOCIATION, THAT OWNS IT, HAS TAKEN THE POSITION FOR YEARS, FOR 200 YEARS, "NO, YOU DON'T BELONG IN THIS FAMILY, AND YOU CAN'T BE BURIED THERE." BECAUSE? AND WE TAKE THE POSITION, "YES." YOU TAKE THE POSITION, "YES"? YES. I MEAN, WE'RE HERE TO WELCOME ALL OF THESE PEOPLE, AND I CAN SEE A LOT OF THEM RIGHT HERE, YOU KNOW, INTO THE MONTICELLO ASSOCIATION. AND ONE OF THE THINGS I WANT TO DO IS INVITE EVERYBODY THAT'S HERE THAT'S FROM THE FAMILY TO GO WITH US TO THE MONTICELLO ASSOCIATION MEETING IN MAY. HOW DO YOU KNOW I'M NOT FROM THE FAMILY? WELL. [ LAUGHTER ] YOU'RE WELCOME TOO, YOU KNOW? 'CAUSE I'M LOOKING LIKE, "I MIGHT BE IN THE FAMILY, TOO." I THINK THAT'S A REALLY IMPORTANT POINT, YOU KNOW? I THINK IN OUR COUNTRY, THERE'S PROBABLY A REALLY GOOD CHANCE THAT ANY FAMILY COULD TRACE THEIR LINEAGE BACK IN MUCH THE SAME WAY. I THINK THAT'S WHY THE STORY IS SO INTERESTING TO PEOPLE. SO, HOW ARE YOU RELATED? YOU ARE THE... HE WAS YOUR... GRANDFATHER. LIKE, SIXTH GREAT-GRANDFATHER. WELL, HERE'S A QUICK LESSON. THOMAS JEFFERSON AND HIS WIFE, MARTHA, HAD SIX CHILDREN. FOLLOW ME NOW. NOW, AFTER MARTHA DIED, AT SOME POINT, THOMAS JEFFERSON BEGAN A SEXUAL RELATIONSHIP WITH A YOUNG SLAVE NAMED SALLY HEMINGS. NOW, SALLY HAD SEVEN CHILDREN HERSELF, ALL OF THEM WERE RUMORED TO HAVE BEEN FATHERED BY THOMAS JEFFERSON, AND WE HAVE JUST LEARNED THAT THERE IS PROOF THAT AT LEAST ONE OF THEM, A SON NAMED ESTON, WAS, INDEED, THROUGH DNA TESTING, HAS BEEN PROVEN THAT HE WAS THE SON OF THOMAS JEFFERSON. OKAY. SO, I'M JUST TRYING TO KEEP PEOPLE ABREAST OF WHAT'S GOING ON. THAT'S NO SHOCKING REVELATION TO ANYONE IN OUR COUNTRY, I DON'T THINK. A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE SHOCKED. THERE ARE A LOT OF HISTORIANS WHO SAY -- WHICH I'M SHOCKED THAT THEY'RE SHOCKED. THEY'RE SAYING THAT IT WAS MORALLY IMPOSSIBLE FOR JEFFERSON TO HAVE DONE THIS. WELL, IT'S NICE THAT THEY'RE ABLE TO SPEAK ON HIS BEHALF AFTER ALL THESE CENTURIES. [ LAUGHTER ] YOU'RE MY PEOPLE! [ LAUGHTER, CHEERS, APPLAUSE ] I KNOW. I KNOW. I READ A QUOTE FROM A HISTORIAN, WHO I SHALL LEAVE UNNAMED, THAT SAID THAT IT WOULD BE MORALLY IMPOSSIBLE FOR THOMAS JEFFERSON TO HAVE DONE THIS, AND I WENT [LAUGHS] AND I DON'T EVEN SEE -- HOW CAN A HISTORIAN -- YOU KNOW, I'M A DIRECT DESCENDANT OF THE GUY, AND I CAN'T SAY THAT. SO, THIS HAS CAUSED A RIFT WITHIN THE MONTICELLO FOUNDATION? OH, YEAH. I MEAN, THESE PEOPLE ARE VERY UNHAPPY WITH ME. WHICH YOU BELONG TO. YEAH. WE BELONG TO IT. WHICH YOU ALL BELONG TO. AUTOMATICALLY, WE BELONG TO THAT. AUTOMATICALLY. BECAUSE YOU'RE DESCENDENTS. NO DNA TESTS, NO BIRTH CERTIFICATES, NO FAMILY VOTE -- WE'RE JUST IN THERE. AND IT HAS CAUSED A RIFT. I'VE READ, THOUGH, THAT THEY SAY IT IS NOT BECAUSE OF RACE, IT'S BECAUSE OF THE DOCUMENTS THAT SAY THAT ONLY THE DIRECT DESCENDANTS OF MARTHA AND THOMAS SHOULD GO INTO THIS -- SHOULD BE BURIED AT MONTICELLO. YOU KNOW WHAT THAT IS? BALONEY. THAT'S BALONEY? THAT'S WHAT IT IS. AND THESE PEOPLE ARE -- IT IS ABOUT RACE, THEN, YOU'RE SAYING? IT IS ABOUT RACE, AND IT IS ABOUT SEX, AND IT IS ABOUT BLOOD, AND THESE PEOPLE ARE UPTIGHT ABOUT IT AND AFRAID ABOUT IT BECAUSE ALL OF A SUDDEN -- SO THEY'RE NOT GONNA BE VERY HAPPY WITH YOU SAYING THIS? ALL OF A SUDDEN, WHAT'S SORT OF BEEN A LITTLE SECRET, YOU KNOW? THERE'S JUST A FEW OF US IN THE MONTICELLO ASSOCIATION. WE HAVE THIS LITTLE GRAVEYARD, AND ALL OF A SUDDEN NOW, IT'S OUT IN THE PUBLIC. AND THEY'RE UPSET ABOUT IT BECAUSE -- AND I'LL TELL YOU. I'M GONNA BE FRANK WITH YOU. BECAUSE BLACK PEOPLE ARE GONNA END UP BEING BURIED THERE. WE'RE GONNA TEAR DOWN THE FENCE AND OPEN IT UP AND MAKE IT BIGGER AND HAVE THE WOODSONS AND THE COOLEYS AND MADISONS AND EVERYBODY ELSE BURIED THERE. WHO ARE SALLY HEMINGS'S AND THOMAS JEFFERSON'S DESCENDANTS. I DON'T SEE WHY ALL THE DESCENDANTS OF ALL OF THE SLAVES THAT WORKED AT MONTICELLO SHOULDN'T BE BURIED THERE. THEY BUILT IT. IT WOULDN'T BE THERE, YOU KNOW? [ APPLAUSE ] EVERY BRICK. GO AHEAD. EVERY BRICK AND EVERY PIECE OF WOOD, YOU KNOW, WAS -- EVERY BRICK WAS MADE THERE AT MONTICELLO BY SLAVES. EVERY PIECE OF WOOD WAS CUT BY THE SLAVES. ON THE MORNING THAT THOMAS JEFFERSON WROTE THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE, SOMEBODY FIXED HIS BREAKFAST, SOMEBODY MADE A FIRE FOR HIM, SOMEBODY GOT HIS PEN AND PAPER OUT, SOMEBODY, YOU KNOW, BAKED BREAD -- ALL OF THOSE PEOPLE WERE SLAVES. WITHOUT THE SLAVES THAT WORKED FOR HIM, I DON'T THINK WE WOULD HAVE HAD A DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE. I THINK IT IS A BIGGER ISSUE THAN JUST BLOODLINES OR GENEALOGY. IT IS AN ISSUE THAT GOES BACK TO THE ROOTS OF KIND OF THAT SENSE OF SHAME ABOUT SLAVERY AND THE ISSUES OF SLAVERY. YES, WHICH WE WILL BE TALKING ABOUT TODAY. IF THE FOUNDING FATHER OF THIS COUNTRY -- IF ONE OF THE FOUNDING FATHERS OF THIS COUNTRY, WHO WROTE THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE, "ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL," OWNED SLAVES, WHAT DOES THAT SAY? HE WAS CONFUSED IN A BIG WAY. I MEAN, BUT I THINK -- WE'RE GONNA GET INTO THAT DISCUSSION, OKAY? BEFORE LUCIAN AND MARY MEET THEIR RELATIVES FROM THE OTHER SIDE, LET'S TAKE A LOOK AT THE OTHER SIDE OF THE FAMILY. OH, HI. HELLO THERE. SHAY AND DOUG ARE ON THEIR WAY TO A FAMILY REUNION IN CHILLICOTHE, OHIO. IT MIGHT LOOK LIKE A TYPICAL FAMILY GATHERING, BUT THERE'S SOMETHING A LITTLE UNUSUAL ABOUT THIS GROUP. MORE THAN HALF OF THE 40 PEOPLE HERE ARE RELATED TO THOMAS JEFFERSON. THOMAS JEFFERSON IS MY GREAT-GREAT-GREAT-GREAT GRANDFATHER. I AM THOMAS JEFFERSON'S GREAT-GREAT-GREAT-GREAT GRANDDAUGHTER. I AM THE GRANDSON OF THOMAS JEFFERSON, SEVEN GENERATIONS REMOVED. Oprah: TODAY, THERE ARE ONLY THE FAINTEST REMINDERS THAT THIS IS THE TOWN WHERE SOME OF SALLY HEMINGS' CHILDREN SETTLED AFTER BEING FREED. NO ONE HERE WAS SURPRISED BY THE NEWS ABOUT JEFFERSON BECAUSE THE NEW SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE PROVED WHAT THEY'VE ALREADY KNOWN FOR GENERATIONS. Shay: THERE'S NEVER BEEN A QUESTION IN MY FAMILY AS TO WHETHER OR NOT THOMAS JEFFERSON IS RELATED TO US THROUGH THESE GENERATIONS. AMERICA'S HISTORY IS JUST NOT MADE UP OF CAUCASIANS. AMERICA'S HISTORY IS MADE UP OF MANY PEOPLE OF COLOR. Oprah: SHAY LEARNED HER FAMILY HISTORY THROUGH HER MOTHER, AND SHE PASSES IT TO HER SON, CONTINUING A FAMILY TRADITION. I CAN REMEMBER EVEN IN THE THIRD GRADE, TELLING PEOPLE WHEN WE LEARNED ABOUT THE PRESIDENTS OF THE UNITED STATES AND WHO WROTE THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE, I COULD SAY HE WAS MY GREAT-GREAT-GREAT-GREAT-GREAT GRANDFATHER. Oprah: NOW THAT EVERYONE KNOWS WHAT HER FAMILY HAS KNOWN FOR CENTURIES, SHAY HAS A NEW SENSE OF CONNECTION. Shay: IT'S AMAZING THAT WE HAVE SO MANY AFRICAN-AMERICANS WHO HAVE LIVED THROUGH SLAVERY AND HAVE ACCOMPLISHED SO MUCH. WELL, SHAY AND DOUG, COME ON OUT AND MEET YOUR RELATIVES. COME ON OUT. [ CHEERS AND APPLAUSE ] MARY AND LUCIAN, SHAY AND DOUG. Douglas: GOOD TO MEET YOU. Shay: GOD BLESS YOU. Mary: HI. GOD BLESS YOU. GOOD TO MEET YOU. Oprah: WE'LL FIND OUT WHAT THESE NEWLY INTRODUCED RELATIVES HAVE TO SAY TO EACH OTHER WHEN WE COME BACK. WE'LL BE RIGHT BACK. GOOD TO MEET YOU. GOD BLESS YOU. GOD BLESS YOU. GOD BLESS YOU. GOD BLESS YOU. [ APPLAUSE ] TOLD YOU THIS WOULD BE INTERESTING. TODAY, WE'RE TALKING TO THE BLACK AND WHITE DESCENDANTS OF THOMAS JEFFERSON, AND THEY HAVE JUST MET, AS YOU JUST SAW, RIGHT HERE FOR THE VERY FIRST TIME. HAVE YOU ALL -- WE SAW ON THAT TAPE THAT IT IS ALWAYS BEEN A PART OF YOUR OWN FAMILY'S ORAL TRADITION THAT YOU ARE DESCENDANT OF THOMAS JEFFERSON AND SALLY HEMINGS. HOW DID THAT GET PASSED DOWN? FOR MY FAMILY, IT'S THE WORD -- ORAL HISTORY. THE SAME AS THEIR FAMILY? THAT'S TRUE. I HAVE ALWAYS KNOWN IT. QUICKLY, TO UNDERSTAND, MY MOTHER LIVED IN A HOUSEHOLD OF THREE GENERATIONS. HER MOTHER, HER GRANDMOTHER, AND HER GREAT-GRANDMOTHER VISITED HER ALL THE TIME. HER GREAT-GRANDMOTHER WAS THE GRANDDAUGHTER OF THOMAS JEFFERSON. THERE WAS NO QUESTION OF WHO GREAT-GRANDMOTHER WAS. OKAY. TELL ME THAT AGAIN. I'M A LITTLE SLOW. ALL RIGHT. MY MOTHER LIVED IN A HOUSEHOLD WITH HER MOTHER AND HER GRANDMOTHER. GOTCHA. HER GREAT-GRANDMOTHER VISITED WITH THEM ALL THROUGH THEIR YEARS, SO SHE KNEW GRANDMA SPEARS. GRANDMA SPEARS IS THE SON OF MADISON HEMINGS, WHO IS THE GRANDDAUGHTER OF THOMAS JEFFERSON. SO NO ONE QUESTIONED WHO GRANDMA SPEARS WAS. THEY KNEW HER LIFE. WE DID NOT NEED A BOOK FOR THAT. SHE SHARED HER LIFE WITH HER FAMILY. SO, WHAT HAPPENED IN YOUR FAMILY RECENTLY WHEN ALL OF THE DNA TESTING SO-CALLED PROVED THAT ALL OF THIS IS NOW TRUE? WELL, WHAT HAPPENED FOR ME IS THAT I -- MY FIRST THOUGHTS WERE "NOW SOMEONE CAN SPEND THE NEXT 20 YEARS TRYING TO DISPROVE THEMSELF," BECAUSE, TO ME, THEY FINALLY PUT A STOP TO OUR BEING JUST RUMORS OF WHAT'S GONE ON. THAT DNA MAY NOT BE CONCLUSIVE FOR EVERYTHING, BUT IT'S ENOUGH TO STOP PART OF THAT. WE KNOW -- WE DIDN'T NEED THAT AS A FAMILY. MM-HMM. BUT THERE ARE OTHERS WHO DID, SO, THEREFORE, THIS HAS GIVEN SOME CLOSURE TO ONE PART OF IT, AND TO HEAR THEM TODAY, I AM THOROUGHLY IMPRESSED WITH MY FAMILY. DOUG, WHEN YOU SAY -- AND IT'S IN THE THIRD GRADE WHEN YOU WERE READING ABOUT THOMAS JEFFERSON AND YOU WOULD TELL YOUR TEACHERS AND CLASSMATES THAT HE WAS YOUR GREAT-GREAT -- WHEN I HEARD THAT, I WANTED TO GO, "YEAH, AND THEY SAID, 'YEAH, RIGHT'." [ LAUGHTER ] I DIDN'T EVEN KNOW THAT TILL HE SAID IT. WHAT WOULD HAPPEN? THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION, 'CAUSE THIRD GRADE WAS A VERY TRAUMATIC EXPERIENCE FOR ME, 'CAUSE I WAS THE ONLY AFRICAN-AMERICAN AT MY SCHOOL. AND, SO, I USED TO GET IN FIGHTS EVERY DAY BECAUSE I WAS CALLED ALL KINDS OF NAMES, AND, SO, WHEN WE WOULD LEARN OUR HISTORY OF THE UNITED STATES AND GOT TO THOMAS JEFFERSON, I'D SAY, "HEY," YOU KNOW. [ LAUGHTER ] THAT'S MY GRANDFATHER. HIS MOTHER'S CHILD. AND, SO, OBVIOUSLY, THEY DIDN'T THINK I WAS TELLING THE TRUTH. YOU KNOW, THAT I WAS MAKING UP LIES, AND THERE WAS NO WAY. AND I WOULD RECITE, YOU KNOW, HE HAD A SLAVE NAMED SALLY HEMINGS, AND MY PEOPLE COME THROUGH THERE, AND IT WAS THE TRUTH. WELL, HOW DO YOU FEEL NOW ABOUT THE OTHER SIDE OF THE FAMILY? I'M GONNA ASK EACH OF YOU. 'CAUSE YOU'VE ALWAYS KNOWN THEY EXISTED, SO IT'S NOT A SURPRISE TO YOU. HOW DO YOU FEEL? AND THE WAY THE HISTORY WAS SHARED WITH ME AND THE WAY I'VE EMBRACED IT HASN'T BEEN FROM THE SIGNIFICANCE OF EMBRACING THOMAS JEFFERSON AS MY RELATIVE, SO MUCH AS THE SLAVES THAT HE HAD AND THE LEGACY THAT THEY HAD AND THE STRENGTH THAT COMES FROM THAT. AND SO, THAT'S REALLY WHERE I GET MY STRENGTH FROM, UNDERSTANDING ALL OF THE DEGRADATION AND THE TRAUMA THAT THEY WENT THROUGH AND YET PERSEVERED. AND WE COME FROM PEOPLE FROM SUCH STRONG STOCK. THAT'S THE CELEBRATION. THAT IS THE CELEBRATION. THAT IS THE CELEBRATION. IT'S AMAZING. [ APPLAUSE ] LET ME ASK YOU, HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT -- I KNOW YOU'VE HEARD WHAT THEY HAVE TO SAY -- LUCIAN AND MARY -- BUT YOU KNOW THERE ARE OTHER MEMBERS OF THE MONTICELLO ASSOCIATION FROM THE OTHER SIDE, FROM MARTHA AND THOMAS' SIDE, WHO DON'T WANT THE DESCENDANTS OF SALLY -- YOUR PEOPLE, YOUR SIDE OF THE FAMILY -- BURIED AT MONTICELLO. HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT THAT? I'M NOT THE LEAST BIT SURPRISED ABOUT THAT. THIS IS AN ISSUE THAT REALLY HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH "SALLY HEMINGS." IT IS AN ISSUE OF PEOPLE OF COLOR AND PEOPLE NOT OF COLOR. AND THIS IS GONNA HAPPEN REGARDLESS. EVERYONE THAT TALKS ABOUT WHETHER YOU'RE GONNA BE BURIED IN THE CEMETERY OR NOT -- AND YOU CLEARLY SPOKE EARLIER THAT IT WAS MY PEOPLE OF COLOR WHO BUILT EVERYTHING ON MONTICELLO, SO THEIR RIGHTS SHOULD BE AS THEY ARE, BUT AS AFRICAN-AMERICANS, WE HAVE YET FAR TO GO TO BE ACCEPTED INTO AREAS IN WHICH WE SHOULD ALREADY BE A PART OF, SIMPLY BECAUSE WE'RE BLACK. [ APPLAUSE ] AND THIS IS, AS YOU SEE IT, JUST ANOTHER AREA? ANOTHER. ANOTHER. AND THERE WILL BE PEOPLE WHO TRULY WANT TO BE A PART OF THAT CEMETERY AND BE BURIED THERE AND I NEED TO SPEAK FOR THE RECORD -- I REALLY DON'T -- I MEAN, WHOEVER WANTS TO BE BURIED THERE, FINE. I THINK THEY SHOULD HAVE THE RIGHT, BUT I HAVE MY OWN PLOT, IN MY OWN HOME, WITH MY OWN FAMILY, WHERE MY MOTHER IS, SO I DON'T NEED THAT. BUT THE RIGHTS OF US SHOULD BE THERE, AND THAT'S WHAT I CAN ACCEPT, BUT THERE WILL BE THOSE WHO WILL FIGHT THIS TILL THEIR DYING BREATH BECAUSE OF WHO HE IS. IT AIN'T GONNA BE A VERY LONG FIGHT. I MEAN, WAIT TILL WE ALL SHOW UP WITH ALL THE HEMINGSES IN MAY, YOU KNOW? Oprah: AT THE FAMILY REUNION? YEAH. AT THE FAMILY REUNION. WE ASKED ROBERT GILLESPIE, WHO IS THE PRESIDENT OF THE MONTICELLO ASSOCIATION, WHICH YOU ALL BELONG TO, TO COMMENT ON THE DNA TESTING, AND HE SAID THIS. HE WASN'T ABLE TO BE HERE, HE SAID, BUT HE DID SEND THIS MESSAGE, THAT "THE MONTICELLO ASSOCIATION FEELS THAT THE SCIENTIFIC TESTS WERE DONE ACCURATELY," HE SAYS. HE SAYS, "DR. FOSTER AND HIS ASSOCIATES "APPARENTLY DID A GOOD JOB, "BUT THEY WOULD LIKE TO EVALUATE THE RESULTS AND HAVE THEM VERIFIED ON THEIR OWN." "THEY" MEANING THE MONTICELLO ASSOCIATION? YOU KNOW, IT'S TIME TO STOP EVALUATING RESULTS AND TESTING DNA AND TALKING ABOUT ALL THAT STUFF. THIS ISN'T ABOUT DNA. IT'S ABOUT SLAVERY. THAT'S WHAT IT'S ABOUT. AND THAT'S WHAT MAKES THEM NERVOUS. AND IT'S TIME TO STOP TESTING ALL THAT STUFF AND JUST OPEN UP THE MONTICELLO ASSOCIATION AND OPEN UP OUR ARMS AND WELCOME THESE GOOD PEOPLE. LUCIAN -- LET ME INTERRUPT LUCIAN TO SAY, DID YOU ALL HEAR LUCIAN WHEN HE SAID THEIR SIDE HAS NEVER BEEN ASKED TO PROVE ANYTHING. DID YOU ALL HEAR THAT? Audience: YES. OKAY. JUST CHECKING. HERE'S WHAT ROBERT GILLESPIE SAID ABOUT THE GRAVEYARD ISSUE -- THAT THE MONTICELLO ASSOCIATION HASN'T REACHED A DECISION ON REQUESTS TO INCLUDE OTHERS FOR BURIAL, THAT IT'S GOING TO BE A LENGTHY PROCESS, HE SAYS, AND THAT THEY'RE NOT GOING TO BE STAMPEDED INTO A DECISION. SO, IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU GOT A LITTLE FIGHT ON YOUR HANDS. WELL, I THINK SO, BUT, YOU KNOW, THERE'S A TRAFFIC JAM OUT THERE AMONG HISTORIANS THAT ARE SHIFTING INTO REVERSE ON THIS THING, AND, YOU KNOW, THERE'S GONNA BE A TRAFFIC JAM IN THE ASSOCIATION SHIFTING INTO REVERSE, TOO. BECAUSE WHAT? BECAUSE THEY CAN'T DENY THE DNA? BECAUSE IT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO, AND YOU CAN'T ARGUE -- [ APPLAUSE ] TO THIS FAMILY'S AMAZEMENT, THEY FOUND OUT THAT THEY, TOO, ARE DESCENDANTS OF THOMAS JEFFERSON AND THE BIGGER SURPRISE -- THEY'RE ON THE BLACK SIDE OF THE FAMILY. WE'LL GET THE DETAILS ON THEM WHEN WE COME BACK. [ APPLAUSE ] OKAY, NOW. I WANT YOU TO MEET ART, HIS MOTHER, JULIA, AND HIS COUSIN MARY. NOW, THEIR FAMILY WAS THE KEY TO UNLOCKING THIS MYSTERY THAT YOU'VE BEEN HEARING ABOUT OF RECENT. THEY ARE THE DESCENDANTS OF THOMAS JEFFERSON, AND, SURPRISE! THEY'RE ON THE BLACK SIDE OF THE FAMILY. [ LAUGHTER ] HOW WAS THAT A SURPRISE TO YOU? WELL, WE'VE KNOWN FOR ABOUT 20 YEARS, SO THIS NEW REVELATION HAS NOT BEEN A SURPRISE. YOU'VE KNOWN THAT YOU WERE DESCENDANTS OF THOMAS JEFFERSON? AND SALLY HEMINGS, FOR 20 YEARS. WHEN FAWN BRODIE WROTE THE BOOK, WE THOUGHT WE WERE DISTANTLY RELATED PRIOR TO THAT, BUT WE FOUND OUT THAT IT WAS A DIRECT DESCENDENCY THROUGH SALLY HEMINGS IN THE '70s. NOW, ARE YOU ALL THE ONES WHO SUPPLIED DNA? MY UNCLE. MY MOTHER'S BROTHER. MY BROTHER. HE WAS A MALE LINE DESCENDANT THAT FIT THE BILL. YES. AND TO CONTINUE THE FORMER DISCUSSION, I HATE TO TELL EVERYBODY, BUT WE'RE RELATED TO MARTHA JEFFERSON, ALSO. THEREFORE, WE'RE RELATED TO JEFFERSON'S CHILDREN, BECAUSE MARTHA'S FATHER WAS JOHN WAYLES, WHO FATHERED SALLY HEMINGS, INTERESTINGLY ENOUGH. I WASN'T EVEN GONNA BRING THAT UP. [ LAUGHTER ] MARTHA'S FATHER... SO, OKAY. SALLY HEMINGS, WHO WAS THE SLAVE TO THOMAS JEFFERSON, WAS REALLY THE HALF-SISTER TO MARTHA -- Woman: WHOO! [ LAUGHTER ] SEE. OKAY. I SHOULD HAVE BROUGHT IT UP. I THOUGHT Y'ALL KNEW THAT ALREADY. SHE WAS THE HALF-SISTER TO MARTHA. SO, ONE WAY OR ANOTHER, WE ARE RELATED TO THE JEFFERSON FAMILY. YOU KNOW, EITHER -- BOTH WAYS. SO, WE'RE IN, I GUESS. [ LAUGHTER ] YOU'RE IN. WE'VE GOT THE BASES COVERED. NOW, WHAT HAS HAPPENED SINCE THIS WAS REVEALED? I READ THAT YOU HAD RACIST COMMENTS FROM FRIENDS. WHAT KIND OF FRIENDS ARE THOSE? WELL, NOT VERY MANY, ACTUALLY. HEARD THROUGH FRIENDS, "WELL, WHY IN THE WORLD WOULD THEY GO ON NATIONAL TV "AND SAY THEY'RE RELATED TO BLACKS? WHAT ARE THEY SO EXCITED ABOUT?" [ LAUGHTER ] [ LAUGHS ] IT JUST AMAZES US. SOME OF THE PEOPLE I WORK WITH HAVE DEALT WITH THIS AS, "WHY ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT THIS?" "I TEACH AT AN ELEMENTARY SCHOOL, "AND HOW CAN I BRING THIS OUT? ISN'T THIS SOMETHING I SHOULD KEEP IN THE BACK?" AND I THOUGHT, "THIS IS MY HERITAGE. THIS IS WHERE I COME FROM. THIS IS A PIECE OF WHERE I AM." ONE FRIEND CALLED AND SAID SHE AND HER DAUGHTER WERE LAUGHING ABOUT THIS, THAT IT WAS SUCH A JOKE. BECAUSE? I DIDN'T ASK. I COULDN'T UNDERSTAND HER REACTION ON THE PHONE, THAT SHE AND HER DAUGHTER WERE LAUGHING ABOUT THIS AND THEY KNOW NOW WHERE MY SON GETS HIS CURLY HAIR. AND THEY THOUGHT THIS WAS SO FUNNY, AND I WAS SO TAKEN ABACK, I COULDN'T SAY ANYTHING ON THE PHONE. SHE'S NOT A CLOSE FRIEND, AND WON'T BE. [ LAUGHTER ] WELL, I SAID TO Y'ALL THIS WAS INTERESTING. THIS IS ANNETTE GORDON-REED. SHE IS A LAW PROFESSOR WHO HAS BEEN INTRIGUED WITH SALLY HEMINGS SINCE SHE WAS 12 YEARS OLD. SHE HAS A MARVELOUS BOOK ABOUT THIS CALLED "THOMAS JEFFERSON AND SALLY HEMINGS: AN AMERICAN CONTROVERSY." NOW, IT CAUSED ITS OWN CONTROVERSY WHEN IT CAME OUT. IS THAT NOT TRUE? Annette: YES, IT DID. YES, IT DID. PEOPLE SAID YOU PLAYED THE RACE CARD. WELL, THERE WAS A SUGGESTION THAT I WAS SORT OF TRADING ON THE ISSUE OF RACE TO TRY TO MAKE THE POINT THAT THE WORDS OF SLAVES, PARTICULARLY MADISON HEMINGS, WHO GAVE TESTIMONY ABOUT HIS LIFE AT MONTICELLO, HAD BEEN SHORTCHANGED BY HISTORIANS, AND THAT WAS THE RESPONSE OF ONE HISTORIAN. SO, NOW YOU'VE BEEN VALIDATED BIG TIME, HAVEN'T YOU? I THINK I HAVE. I FEEL GOOD. [ Chanting ] D-N-A! D-N-A! I KNEW IT WAS GONNA TAKE THAT, BUT I DID THE BEST IN MY BOOK TO SHOW HOW HISTORIANS COULD HAVE COME TO THE SAME CONCLUSION ON THEIR OWN, BUT COULD NOT, FOR REASONS THAT I THINK ARE APPARENT. WHAT DOES THIS ALL MEAN, THOUGH? I DID "BELOVED," AND I UNDERSTAND HOW A LOT OF PEOPLE -- AND WHEN I DID THAT, THE QUESTION WAS, "WHY DO YOU WANT TO BRING THIS UP? WHY IS IT NECESS--" SAME THING YOU'RE HEARING. "WHY DO YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT IT? WHY CAN'T WE JUST LET THE PAST BE THE PAST? IS THERE A WAY WE CAN USE THIS STORY, THESE FAMILIES TO EMBRACE OUR HISTORY, TO MOVE FORWARD, AND NOT LET IT BE SOMETHING THAT, YOU KNOW, CONTINUES TO CAUSE A SENSE OF DISTANCE AND DESTRUCTION? OH, ABSOLUTELY, BECAUSE THE STORY TELLS THAT THERE ARE TWO -- THERE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN MANY, MANY STORIES IN AMERICA, AND LISTENING TO ONLY ONE SIDE DOES NOT YIELD A CORRECT RESULT. IF YOU WANT TO PUT IT DOWN TO JUST THE SIMPLE ART OF HISTORY, YOU HAVE TO LISTEN TO ALL VOICES ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED IN AMERICA, AND THIS SHOWS THIS IN ABSOLUTE LIVING COLOR AND PHYSICAL FORM. AND WHAT IT SHOWS IT THAT FOR A GREAT PART OF OUR HISTORY -- 'CAUSE I HEAR THIS MANY TIMES, AND I'M SURE YOU HAVE, TOO. WHEN I DO SHOWS ABOUT THIS, PEOPLE SAY, "OH, I NEVER KNEW THAT," OR, "I NEVER UNDERSTOOD THAT," OR, "I DIDN'T READ THAT IN THE HISTORY BOOKS." THERE REALLY NEEDS TO BE NOT JUST IN BLACK HISTORY MONTH -- JUST MY PERSONAL OPINION -- NOT JUST A BLACK HISTORY MONTH, BUT THE INCLUSION OF BLACK, AFRICAN-AMERICAN, NEGRO HISTORY IN ALL OF THE BOOKS. HISTORY NEEDS TO BE REWRITTEN. [ APPLAUSE ] IT NEEDS TO BE REWRITTEN. TO INCLUDE ALL THE PEOPLE WHO MADE THE HISTORY. WELL, THIS STORY ISN'T JUST THE HISTORY OF OUR FAMILY. IT'S THE HISTORY OF THE COUNTRY. IT IS. AND THAT'S WHY IT'S SO INTERESTING. AND THE HISTORY BELONGS TO ALL OF US, TO ALL THE PEOPLE IN THIS AUDIENCE, YOU KNOW? IT'S ALL OF OUR HISTORY. SO, THERE PROBABLY ARE MANY PEOPLE WHO ARE LIKE YOURSELVES, WHO LOOK AS WHITE AS ANYBODY, WHO ARE ALSO -- WHO HAVE BLACK BLOOD IN THEM. WHERE THERE WAS A TIME IN THE SOUTH WHERE 1/16th, OR ONE DROP, WOULD HAVE MADE YOU BLACK. YOU WOULD HAVE BEEN CONSIDERED A BLACK CITIZEN, A PART OF THE BLACK CITIZENRY, AND THEREFORE DISCRIMINATED AGAINST AS SUCH. OUR GRANDFATHER'S THE ONE WHO COINED THAT, IN FACT, SO... Oprah: YEAH? YES. HE'S THE ONE WHO DETERMINED WHAT IT TOOK TO STAY BLACK, SO, YOU KNOW, HE HAS MANY SIDES, HIMSELF, THAT SUPPORTED AND EMBRACED THAT PHILOSOPHY AND RACISM, AND IT'S INTERESTING THAT TODAY, ALL OF THESE GENERATIONS LATER, HERE WE SIT AS HIS REPRESENTATIVES, AND SO, I THINK THAT'S -- I WONDER WHAT HE'S THINKING RIGHT NOW. I'M SURE. LET'S GET INTO THIS DISCUSSION. WE'LL BE RIGHT BACK TO GET INTO THE DISCUSSION. WAS IT LOVE FOR SALLY HEMINGS? WERE THEY...IN LOVE? WE'LL BE BACK. [ APPLAUSE ] SO, WHAT WAS THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THOMAS JEFFERSON AND SALLY HEMINGS? SHE WAS ONLY 14 YEARS OLD, AND SHE WAS HIS SLAVE. WELL, THAT SAYS A LOT, I THINK, BUT YOU HAVE YOUR OWN OPINIONS. BUT SOME HAVE CLAIMED THAT THEY WERE IN LOVE. THANDIE NEWTON, WHO ALSO PLAYED BELOVED, PORTRAYED SALLY HEMINGS IN A MOVIE CALLED "JEFFERSON IN PARIS." IT WOULD BE A NICE TIME TO RENT "JEFFERSON IN PARIS," WHICH SUGGESTED AN EMOTIONAL RELATIONSHIP, BUT, REALLY, WHO KNOWS? TAKE A LOOK. AND YOU PUT IT ON YOUR HEAD, AND YOU SEE HOW MANY STEPS YOU CAN DO WITHOUT SPILLING THE WATER. GOING TO THE PARTY-TY GOING TO THE PARTY-TY GOING TO THE PARTY-TY [ Laughing ] GOING TO THE -- [ LAUGHS ] LET ME SHOW YOU HOW TO DO BUCK DANCING. YOU HOLD HANDS, JUMPS UP AND DOWN. YOU STILL SCARED OF ME, SALLY? I AIN'T SCARED OF YOU, MASTER. OKAY, ANNETTE. WHAT DO YOU SAY? WELL, PEOPLE ASK ME THIS, AND THE ANSWER IS I HAVE NO IDEA. ALL I KNOW IS THAT THEY WERE INVOLVED IN A RELATIONSHIP AT LEAST 20 YEARS -- THAT WAS THE LIFE SPAN, THE TIME OF HER CHILDBEARING. AND HER CHILDREN WERE NAMED FOR PEOPLE WHO WERE IMPORTANT TO HIM. THIS COULD HAVE BEEN JUST HIS OWN SENSE OF, YOU KNOW, OF AFFECTION. WHO KNOWS WHAT'S IN THE MIND OF THOMAS JEFFERSON, BUT THE MASTER/SLAVE RELATIONSHIP IS ONE THAT'S INHERENTLY COERCIVE, SO YOU HAVE TO WONDER. THERE'S NO REAL WAY OF KNOWING WHAT WAS IN THE MINDS OF THOSE TWO PEOPLE. SHE CAME BACK FROM FRANCE WITH HIM WHEN SHE DIDN'T HAVE TO, BUT WE DON'T REALLY KNOW WHY. WAS IT TO SEE HER MOTHER? WAS IT BECAUSE SHE TRUSTED HIM, OR WHAT? BUT IT'S DIFFICULT TO KNOW. YEAH, I READ THAT AT THE TIME OF HER DEATH, SHE WAS VALUED AT $50. WELL, AT THE TIME OF THE MONTICELLO SALE AUCTION. I MEAN, IN THOSE DAYS, A WOMAN, YOU KNOW, PAST 20 WAS OLD, PRETTY MUCH, AND SHE WAS NOT VALUED FOR VERY MUCH. I KEEP SLAVE DOCUMENTS AND SLAVE INVENTORIES, WHICH I THINK THEY'RE GONNA PUT IN THE SCREEN RIGHT NOW. I HAVE A LOT OF THESE, MYSELF, JUST TO REMIND MYSELF OF WHERE I'VE COME FROM. I COME FROM A PEOPLE WHO WERE ONCE OWNED, AND IT'S JUST AMAZING. YOU KNOW, SOME OF THE, LIKE, WHEN A SLAVE IS LISTED FOR $300 OR $200 OR, IN THE CASE OF SOME OF THE MEN AND WOMEN WHO ARE LISTED FOR $800 OR, YOU KNOW, UP TO $1,000, THEN THOSE WOULD HAVE BEEN YOUNGER? MM-HMM. MORE ABLE TO WORK. ONE THING THAT MAKES A LOT OF THE MEMBERS OF THE MONTICELLO ASSOCIATION NERVOUS IS IF YOU ADMIT THAT WE HAVE ALL OF THESE COUSINS. AND THEN YOU'RE GONNA HAVE TO BE IN THE ROOM WITH PEOPLE THAT YOUR RELATIVES OWNED. AND THAT'S -- THERE'S A GREAT DEAL OF NERVOUSNESS AMONG WHITE PEOPLE ABOUT THAT, AND I THINK THAT -- WHY? Mary: BECAUSE IT MEANS TAKING THE BLINDERS OFF. YOU KNOW, WE HAVE BASICALLY HAD GENERATIONS OF BLINDERS ON. WELL, I WOULD LIKE AMERICA TO TAKE THE BLINDERS OFF. WE LIVE IN A COUNTRY WHERE LESS THAN 150 YEARS AGO, PEOPLE OF COLOR WERE OWNED. THEY JUST WERE OWNED. THAT JUST IS A FACT. I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY WE'RE IN SUCH DENIAL ABOUT THAT. Douglas: IT'S EASY TO SAY THAT, YOU KNOW, THESE MIGHT HAVE BEEN PEOPLE THAT MY FAMILY OWNED, BUT WHEN YOU COME FACE-TO-FACE WITH SOMEONE THAT IS DEFINITE PROOF, YOU'RE HAVING TO LOOK YOUR SINS IN THE FACE, AND ON ONE WANTS TO DO THAT AT ALL. Oprah: WELL, THIS IS MICHELLE. HER FAMILY ALSO MAINTAINED FOR 200 YEARS THAT THEY ARE RELATIVES OF THOMAS JEFFERSON. HE HAD A LOT OF FOLKS. [ LAUGHTER ] AS YOU SAID, A LOT OF COUSINS COMING OUT. IT'S "ALL MY CHILDREN." "ALL MY CHILDREN." THE REAL "ALL MY CHILDREN." THOMAS JEFFERSON. BUT THEY'VE HAD A HARD TIME CONVINCING OTHERS, AND THE REASON -- DNA TESTS PROVED INCONCLUSIVE FOR YOUR SIDE OF THE FAMILY. BUT WHAT DOES THAT MAKE YOU FEEL NOW? IT MAKES ME FEEL NO LESS RELATED TO THOMAS JEFFERSON, SALLY HEMINGS. WE WERE 100% CERTAIN BEFORE THE DNA TESTING CAME UP AND EVEN AFTERWARDS. WHAT'S VINDICATING IS THAT OUR STORY HAS BEEN RECEIVED AND GOTTEN WIDESPREAD ATTENTION. BEFORE, WHEN I WOULD TELL PEOPLE, AS YOU HAD, AS A CHILD, WHEN I WAS TOLD THAT WE WERE RELATED, THEY WOULD -- YOU WOULD SEE THIS GLARE. AND THEY'D SAY IN THEIR MINDS, "BUT YOU'RE BLACK, AND HOW CAN THAT BE?" BUT WE KNEW IN OUR HEARTS AND IN OUR SPIRITS THAT IT'S TRUE. DADDY LOVED YOU GUYS BECAUSE YOU'RE SO OPEN AND YOU ARE FORGIVING AND YOU'RE OPEN AND OPEN MINDED, BUT THE FOLKS WHO ARE NOT HERE ARE THE ONES WHO WE HAVE ISSUE WITH, WHO WE WANT TO MOVE, AS THE TRUSCOTTS HAVE. [ APPLAUSE ] Oprah: WHEN WE COME BACK, IT WAS ONE OF THE MOST MOVING MOMENTS ON OUR SHOW, WHEN THIS MAN APOLOGIZED TO THE DESCENDANTS OF THE SLAVES WHO WERE OWNED BY HIS FAMILY, AND NOW THERE'S A NEW TWIST. HE'S FOUND OUT THAT HE, TOO, HAS BLACK RELATIVES THAT HE NEVER KNEW HE HAD. WE'LL HEAR ABOUT THAT WHEN WE COME BACK. BACK IN A MOMENT. [ APPLAUSE ] THE NEWS ABOUT THOMAS JEFFERSON IS NO SURPRISE TO ED BALL. HE WAS HERE NOT LONG AGO TO APOLOGIZE TO THE DESCENDANTS OF SLAVES WHO WERE OWNED BY HIS FAMILY. TAKE A LOOK. KATIE'S GRANDMOTHER -- BRIGHT MA, THEY CALL HER -- WAS A SLAVE WHO WAS OWNED BY THE ANCESTORS OF EDWARD BALL. WHAT DID YOU WANT TO SAY TODAY, EDWARD? Edward: I WANT TO SAY THAT I'M SORRY FOR THE SUFFERING THAT MY FAMILY CAUSED YOUR FAMILY SO MANY YEARS AGO AND FOR SUCH A LONG TIME. AND IN SAYING THAT, I KNOW THAT WE HAVEN'T REACHED THE END OF THE JOURNEY. WE HAVEN'T EVEN COME TO THE MIDDLE. BUT WE MIGHT'VE JUST PUT OUR FEET UP ON THE PATH AND TAKEN THE FIRST SMALL STEPS TOWARD UNDERSTANDING. I ASK -- I ASK YOUR FORGIVENESS. [ APPLAUSE ] SO, ED DID NOT EXPECT TO FIND RELATIVES WHEN HE SET ON HIS SEARCH FOR THE DESCENDANTS OF THE SLAVES, BUT THIS IS MAE AND CAROLYN, WHO ARE ED'S COUSINS. HOW'S THAT HAPPEN? ED, HOW DID THAT HAPPEN? HOW DID YOU FIND THEM? WELL, THEY FOUND ME. CAROLYN WROTE ME A LETTER, AND MAE'S MOTHER CALLED ME, AND THEY HAD FAMILY TRADITION THAT THEIR ANCESTORS INCLUDED BALL FAMILY MEN AND WOMEN IN SLAVERY, AND I WENT ABOUT COLLECTING EVIDENCE THAT WOULD EITHER PROVE OR DISPROVE THIS, AND I FOUND ENOUGH EVIDENCE TO PROVE IT. I WAS, AT THE TIME, WRITING A BOOK, "SLAVES IN THE FAMILY." "SLAVES IN THE FAMILY," WHICH IS NOW UP FOR A BOOK AWARD. IT'S ABOUT MY SEARCH FOR THE DESCENDANTS OF PEOPLE ENSLAVED BY MY FAMILY IN SOUTH CAROLINA. AND HOW MANY PEOPLE HAD YOUR FAMILY ENSLAVED? WELL, OVER A PERIOD OF FIVE GENERATIONS, WE ENSLAVED CLOSE TO 4,000 AFRICANS AND AFRICAN-AMERICANS ON RICE PLANTATIONS IN SOUTH CAROLINA. AND THE DESCENDANTS OF THOSE PEOPLE NUMBER BETWEEN 75,000 AND 100,000 LIVING BLACK AMERICANS TODAY. WHO ARE DESCENDANTS OF YOUR FAMILY'S OWNERSHIP? THAT'S CORRECT. YES. SO, IT'S A BIG STORY, AND I SUSPECTED THAT I WOULD FIND BLACK COUSINS. I DIDN'T MAKE A SPECIAL EFFORT TO DO THAT, BUT IT HAPPENED. AND WE'VE RECKONED WITH IT. MAE AND I SEE EACH OTHER, AND I SEE HER FAMILY, AND CAROLYN AND I SEE EACH OTHER, AND IT'S GOOD. MAE AND CAROLYN, HOW'D YOU FEEL ABOUT THIS? I FIND THIS SO INTERESTING, BUT I KNOW A LOT OF Y'ALL WHITE FOLKS AND BLACK FOLKS ARE GONNA BE SHOOK UP OVER THIS WHOLE THING TODAY, BECAUSE I THINK IT'S UNSETTLING. I THINK THIS, AS YOU WERE JUST SAYING, THIS IS A WHITE SUPREMACIST'S NIGHTMARE GOING ON RIGHT HERE. [ Laughing ] RIGHT, TO REALIZE THAT THERE'S BLACK BLOOD IN THE FAMILY. [ LAUGHTER ] Lucian: AND THOMAS JEFFERSON'S FAMILY. AND THOMAS JEFFERSON'S FAMILY -- I MEAN, FOUNDING FATHER. HOW DID YOU FEEL ABOUT IT, THOUGH? I ALWAYS KNEW. I MEAN, ALL I HAVE TO DO IS LOOK IN THE MIRROR, AND I KNEW THAT I HAD WHITE BLOOD IN ME, SO TO SPEAK. AND I HAD ALWAYS HEARD STORIES THAT WERE VERY SIMILAR TO THE THOMAS JEFFERSON STORY, ABOUT MY WHITE ANCESTOR WHO HAD EIGHT CHILDREN WITH HIS SLAVE, WHO NEVER MARRIED OR HAD ANY OTHER CHILDREN THAT WE KNOW OF, WHO PURCHASED LAND FOR THIS WOMAN, WHO DEEDED HER PROPERTY WHEN HE DIED, SO I ALWAYS KNEW, BUT I JUST MET ED, I GUESS, ABOUT THREE YEARS AGO, WHEN HE BEGAN RESEARCHING HIS BOOK. Oprah: CAROLYN? WE HAVE ALWAYS KNOWN THAT WE WERE RELATED TO THE BALLS. WE HAVE ALWAYS HAD CONNECTION WITH THE PLANTATION, AND EVEN TO THIS DAY, THE PLANTATION STILL EXISTS, AND MY FATHER IS CARE KEEPER NOW OF THAT PLANTATION, BUT WE'VE ALWAYS KNOWN THE STORY, BUT TO HAVE SOMEONE TO HAVE THE COURAGE TO COME OUT TO LOOK FOR US AND WANT TO FIND PEOPLE THAT OUR PEOPLE WERE ENSLAVED BY, I WAS REALLY IMPRESSED WITH ED BALL. Lucian: YOU KNOW WHAT WE KEEP HEARING HERE TODAY IS ALL OF THESE PEOPLE, ALL THE PEOPLE ON THE BLACK SIDE, SAY, "WELL, WE'VE ALWAYS KNOWN. WE'VE ALWAYS KNOWN." AND THEY HAVE. BUT WHITE PEOPLE HAVEN'T ALWAYS KNOWN, AND THAT'S WHY IT'S GONNA BE DIFFICULT FOR -- BUT THIS IS WHAT IS SO CONFUSING TO ME AND I'M SURE TO -- I CAN'T SPEAK FOR EVERY BLACK PERSON, BUT I KNOW THERE'S AT LEAST ONE OTHER PERSON OUT THERE WHO FEELS THIS WAY -- THAT IT'S A GIVEN. IT'S JUST A GIVEN. IT'S A GIVEN! DURING THOMAS JEFFERSON'S LIFE, IT WAS A SCANDAL. THERE WERE POEMS. HE WAS SLAMMED IN THE PRESS. HE WAS, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE WERE GOSSIPING ABOUT THIS DURING HIS LIFE. SO, ARE YOU SAYING -- I MEAN, WHEN ED SAID -- YOU KNOW, I READ "SLAVES IN THE FAMILY." YOU KNOW, ELOQUENT, IT'S, YOU KNOW, FASCINATING -- ALL OF THAT. AND WHAT IS SO INTERESTING TO ME IS THAT THERE IS THIS WHOLE ELEMENT OF DENIAL. I DON'T EVEN SEE HOW YOU CAN DENY IT. Annette: I DON'T THINK THAT PEOPLE -- I CAN'T ACCEPT THAT PEOPLE DIDN'T KNOW. I THINK IT'S PEOPLE KNOW THE THINGS THAT THEY WANT TO KNOW AND SEE THE THINGS THAT THEY WANT TO SEE. WHAT IS BEING GIVEN UP -- WHAT I THINK SHE SAID SO ELOQUENTLY AND BRINGS UP, IS GIVING UP THE NOTION OF WHITE SUPREMACY, OF THE IMPORTANCE OF WHITENESS, AND THIS STORY AND STORIES LIKE THIS ATTACK THAT. IT'S HARD TO GIVE UP PRIVILEGE. IT'S HARD TO GIVE THOSE THINGS UP, AND PEOPLE DON'T WANT TO DO IT. FINAL WORDS, Y'ALL. I'M EMBRACING MY FAMILY HERE TODAY. THAT HAD TO BE A REALIZATION FOR ME. I DIDN'T THINK ABOUT IT FROM THAT PERSPECTIVE UNTIL I ACTUALLY WAS COMING HERE. I SAID, "THIS IS MY FAMILY." Oprah: I KNOW -- I HEARD YOU SAY DURING THE COMMERCIAL BREAK TO LUCIAN, "SO YOU GONNA CALL ME AFTER THIS, OR WHAT?" YEAH. [ LAUGHTER ] ARE WE RELATED OR WHAT? YOU KNOW, WHAT ARE WE GONNA DO FROM HERE? JUST ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THIS IS WHO WE ARE? FINE. BUT IF WE MAKE SOMETHING OF THIS, DO SOMETHING WITH THIS, PULL IT TOGETHER, THERE ARE HUNDREDS AND THOUSANDS MORE OUT THERE THAT ARE GONNA DEPEND ON US TO BE THE EXAMPLE, BECAUSE WE'VE STOOD UP AND COME FORWARD. NOW WE HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY OURSELF. Lucian: AND, YOU KNOW, THE NEAT THING IS THAT NOW IT'S OUT OF THE HISTORY BOOKS. I MEAN, IT'S OUT OF THE LIBRARIES AND IT'S IN FLESH AND BLOOD. IT'S RIGHT HERE, YOU KNOW? IT'S ALL THESE PEOPLE, AND WHEN IT BECOMES FLESH AND BLOOD, THAT MAKES IT SO MUCH MORE REAL. THIS SENSE OF SECRECY AND SHAME AND DENIAL, IT'S GONE NOW. IT'S OUT OF THE PICTURE, AND IT'S OUT IN THE OPEN. THEY'VE GOT THEIR DNA TEST FOR THE NON-BELIEVERS, TO CONVINCE THEM, AND NOW THE NEXT GENERATION OF KIDS CAN GROW UP AND SAY, "WE'RE DESCENDANTS OF THOMAS JEFFERSON," AND IT WILL BE ACCEPTED AND BELIEVED, AND THAT'S WHAT REALLY MAKES ME HAPPY. I THINK IT MIGHT BE BELIEVED. I DON'T KNOW HOW ACCEPTED IT STILL WILL BE. I THINK THERE'S A LOT OF MENTALITIES THAT STILL HAVE TO BE BROKEN THROUGH. YOU HAVE TO ADMIT THAT MR. JEFFERSON WAS, IN LUCIAN'S WORDS, A BIT CONFUSED. [ LAUGHTER ] AND ULTIMATELY, JUST A MAN. AND JUST A MAN. AND A POLITICIAN. AND A POLITICIAN. [ LAUGHTER ] [ APPLAUSE ] ALL RIGHT. NEXT, THESE QUILTS AREN'T JUST BEAUTIFUL ANTIQUES. THEY ACTUALLY CONTAIN A SECRET CODE. REMEMBERING THE SPIRIT OF FREEDOM, WHEN WE COME BACK. BACK IN A MOMENT. THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH FOR THIS INTERESTING CONVERSATION. [ APPLAUSE ] EVERY DAY, WE SHOW YOU A STORY ABOUT FINDING AND FEELING JOY, A WAY OF REMEMBERING YOUR SPIRIT. WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT THE SPIRIT OF THE ANCESTORS HERE TODAY, AS SOMEONE WITH THE SCREEN-NAME "POMAROLA" WROTE TO US ONLINE. REMEMBERING YOUR SPIRIT -- THANK YOU, POMAROLA -- IS THE SEGMENT OF THE SHOW DIRECTED TO THE PART OF MANKIND THAT PERCEIVES THE VALUE OF LIFE ITSELF. I HEAR THERE'S A RAGING DEBATE AT OPRAH ONLINE ABOUT WHAT "SPIRIT" REALLY MEANS. FOR RAYMOND DOBARD, SPIRIT IS CONNECTING WITH A UNIQUE PART OF HISTORY. FOR SLAVES IN THE 19th CENTURY, QUILTS LIKE THESE MEANT MUCH MORE THAN JUST BLANKETS ON THE BED. WITHIN THE PATTERNS AND COLORS EXISTS A SECRET CODE THAT SPELLED A WAY TO FREEDOM. TAKE A LOOK. WELL, QUILTS HAVE ALWAYS BEEN PART OF THE AFRICAN-AMERICAN TRADITION. QUILTS WERE SOMETHING THEY COULD IMPRESS UPON THEIR MEMORY AND RECALLED SOME OF THE TRADITIONS FROM AFRICA. THOSE WHO WERE ENSLAVED DID NOT HAVE THE LUXURY OF PAINT, CERTAINLY, BUT THEY DID HAVE SCRAPS OF CLOTH, AND THOSE SCRAPS OF CLOTH ENABLED MANY TO EXPRESS THEMSELVES AND TO COMMUNICATE. THE QUILTS WERE USED AS SORT OF MESSAGE MAPS, IF YOU WILL, TO HELP FIND WAYS TO FREEDOM ON THE UNDERGROUND RAILROAD. THE QUILTS WERE PLACED ON THE FENCE IN ORDER TO AIR OUT. HOWEVER, THE QUILTS WERE NOT MERELY AIRING. THE QUILTS WERE SIGNALING. THIS ENABLED THE FUGITIVE SLAVES TO HAVE A MAP. MY CO-AUTHOR AND I WERE MADE AWARE OF THIS THROUGH MRS. OZELLA McDANIEL WILLIAMS OF CHARLESTON, SOUTH CAROLINA. OZELLA RECEIVED THE STORY FROM HER MOTHER, WHO RECEIVED IT FROM HER MOTHER BEFORE. THE CODE MENTIONS SEVERAL PATTERNS, AND ONE OF THOSE PATTERNS IS THE MONKEY WRENCH. THIS PATTERN WAS TO INDICATE TOOLS WERE TO BE PACKED FOR THE JOURNEY NORTH. THE BOW TIE PATTERN WAS TO INDICATE A DISGUISE. IT WOULD REMIND THOSE WHO WERE ESCAPING THAT THEY HAD TO BE PREPARED TO CHANGE THEIR APPEARANCE. THE FLYING GEESE PATTERN REPRESENTS NOT ONLY THE FUGITIVES THEMSELVES, WHO ARE LITERALLY TAKING FLIGHT -- ALSO IT IS USED AS A COMPASS. THESE TRIANGLES POINT NORTH, SOUTH, EAST, AND WEST. ONLY ONE SET OF THE TRIANGLES IS DISTINGUISHED FROM THE OTHERS. TWO DIFFERENT PIECES OF FABRIC PREFERENCES THAT ONE SET, AND THAT TELLS US THE DIRECTION. THE NORTH STAR AS A QUILT PATTERN REPRESENTS NOT ONLY THE SPECIAL DIRECTION -- IT SEEMS TO ADDRESS THE VERY SPIRIT OF FREEDOM, A SPIRIT THAT ENSURED THERE WOULD BE MORE THAN SURVIVAL, BUT TRANSCENDENCE. WHATEVER QUILTS WE DO HAVE SURVIVING FROM THIS PERIOD MUST BE HANDLED DELICATELY. THE FIBERS ARE USUALLY IN VERY FRAIL CONDITION, AND SO, THEREFORE, MUSEUMS WILL TAKE SPECIAL CAUTION IN ENSURING THAT THESE QUILTS WILL STAY WITH US. WHEN I AM QUILTING, I AM AT ONE WITH MYSELF, AT ONE WITH MY ANCESTORS, IN PARTICULAR, MY AUNT FRIDA, WHO WAS THE NEEDLE ARTIST IN THE FAMILY, AND I'M AT PEACE. MY QUILT, "THE EVENING STAR IS MY MORNING LIGHT," IS COMPOSED OF THE NORTH STAR PATTERN. IT WAS CREATED AT A TIME THAT WAS RATHER DIFFICULT FOR ME. IT WAS A PERSONAL PASSAGE, IF YOU WILL, IN MY OWN LIFE. THE DARK SQUARES, THAT'S THE SPACE THAT'S IN MEMORY OF THOSE PEOPLE, THOSE EVENTS, THOSE PLACES WHICH HAVE LEFT THEIR MARK ON MY SOUL. QUILTS ARE THE FABRIC OF SPIRIT, BECAUSE IN THE QUILT, WE HAVE SOMETHING NOT ONLY TO SEE, BUT TO TOUCH, SOMETHING WE CAN WRAP OURSELVES IN AND COMFORT OUR OWN SPIRIT. INTERESTING. I NEVER KNEW THAT. YOU CAN READ MORE ABOUT THESE QUILTS AND THE SECRET CODE OF QUILTING IN A BOOK CALLED "HIDDEN IN PLAIN VIEW." WE'LL BE RIGHT BACK. [ APPLAUSE ] NOW, LET ME JUST ASK YOU THIS AS PEOPLE WHO LOOK WHITE. [ LAUGHTER ] NOW, AT ANY TIME DURING TODAY'S CONVERSATION, WERE Y'ALL THINKING, "MM, NO. MAYBE..." -- AT ANY TIME? DID THE THOUGHT OCCUR TO YOU? OKAY. AND IF THE THOUGHT HAS NOW OCCURRED TO YOU, WHAT DOES IT MAKE YOU THINK? THE POSSIBILITY THAT THERE COULD BE BLACK BLOOD IN YOUR FAMILY. I DON'T HAVE ANY ISSUES WITH THAT, AND I FIND IT -- THE PEOPLE WHO DO, IT'S MORE OF A QUESTION OF ARISTOCRACY THAN THAT THEY WANT TO SET THEMSELVES APART. BUT WASN'T THIS INTERESTING CONVERSATION? I TOLD YOU IT WOULD BE INTERESTIN'. THANK YOU SO MUCH. THANKS FOR WATCHING. YEAH. INTERESTING.
