Thomas Jefferson in Revolutionary Philadelphia

hello and welcome to our live stream today with Bill Barker as Thomas Jefferson today we're talking about Jefferson's experiences in the colonial capital city of Philadelphia please post your questions for Mr Jefferson in the comments and let us know where you're watching from well good afternoon friends it all looks so very very familiar to me you know I I wish I had been to the very first Continental Congress that was held in Philadelphia September in 1774 but it was not held here it was held rather at the newly completed Carpenter's Hall a building just about a block or two away the reason why I wish I had been there was because of what I had written I was instructed by my cousin Mr Peyton randiff who was elected the first president of that very first Continental Congress to draft a summary view of the rights of British North America that it might be delivered at that very first Congress to well to bring us all together upon our general causes and concerns the facts that we had been we had continually been petitioning for redress of grievances and have been denied that a central right of an Englishman I could not attend I fell ill and so I will never forget though this pamphlet was printed in Williamsburg Virginia that would have not happened had not Jupiter Evans taken my draft my handwritten draft while I was still at Monticello and written those five days on Horseback to Williamsburg Virginia and there to have it printed by Mrs Clementina Ryan it was this pamphlet that was taken up to Philadelphia by Mr Peyton Randolph and red amongst all of them that were gathered there that they might reacquaint themselves with our Grievances and you know my name does not appear on it it says by a native and member of the Virginia House of Burgesses many asked who is the author of this some review to which my cousin Payton replied it is my cousin Thomas Jefferson of Albemarle Virginia a member of the Virginia House of Burgesses indeed they said please tell Mr Jefferson he's become well known as an author even in his absence it's good to be back in Philadelphia and welcome to all of you here as I've reminisce upon those times that I that I hope to have felt useful in the concerns of not only Virginia but all of us the concerns of Americans that led us to declare our independency well I'm certainly ready for your questions and certain you have many of them so as you've allowed me here a moment to reflect uh I now look forward to your questions so Mr Jefferson whenever the month of June comes around do you reflect upon the months of June during which you were at the Continental Congress in Philadelphia I do and though the continental congress met throughout several Springs well the only two Springs that I recall were the spring of 1775 and the spring of 1776. so yes during the dunes during those years June of 75 and June of 76. I remember well-being in Philadelphia city attending to that second continental congress on both occasions I just reflected upon the First Continental Congress in the Autumn of 1774 and one of the consequences of the first Congress was to call for a second Congress to reconvene the following year and so it was in the spring of 75 that I've rode up to Philadelphia to attend my first though it was the second and then many people refer to the Congress meeting in Philadelphia in the spring of 1776 as the tension of the Second Continental Congress which it was but it was still that second continental congress that we were all in Philadelphia during that particular June so two Junes that I recall uh being with our Congress in Philadelphia well we've had a question come in already from Tara asking where did you stay when you were in Philadelphia well Tara when I first went to Philadelphia not many people know this I was but 20 23 years old when I went up to Philadelphia in 1766 and I stayed there at a particular home of a some say he was a relative I still have never been able to ascertain how we are related but at the the home of Benjamin Randolph my mother as you know was Jane Randolph daughter of Captain aisham Brandon this Benjamin ran different sometimes I've even referred to him as Ben Randle was a cabinet maker in Philadelphia so it was that one month I was in Philadelphia that was May of 1766 I stayed there now then when I returned to Philadelphia to attend the second continental congress in the spring of 1775. I stayed as well with Ben Randolph at his house and then the next spring when I've returned in 1776 I stayed with him again up until the latter part of of May and that was when I moved to a newly built brick townhouse uh it was on the southwest corner of 7th and High Street I believe they now refer to High Street as Market Street in Philadelphia the townhouse was built by a German immigrant one Jacob Graf a g-r-a-f-f uh a well accomplished bricklayer and so I rented two rooms on the second story of Mr grass townhouse a bed chamber and a parlor The Parlor fronted elt on High Street and so that is where I stayed during the remainder of the spring and the summer of 17 and 76. we have a question about the actual trip from Monticello to Philadelphia was it an arduous trip quite arduous of course the first trip that I went up in 1766. I I went by water I simply went to Williamsburg and there I took a tender uh out to a ship that was anchored in the York River uh that ship then sailed out the mouth of the York River up the Chesapeake Bay I stayed in Annapolis uh for some days and then from Annapolis uh sailed up to the Chester River and that was up north east i disembarked in Chestertown I followed the road up to Dover and then up to Philadelphia that way now in the spring of 17 and 75 and in the spring of 17 and 76 I went from Charlottesville up by way of Culpepper then Culpepper up to um to uh uh Leesburg Leesburg across the Potomac went over to uh to uh Frederick Maryland of Frederick Maryland I I went then up to Hanover a Hanover to York York to Lancaster and then I followed the old North Carolina road that is what it was called the North Carolina Road essentially from Leesburg uh up to Frederick and Beyond then I followed that East into Philadelphia so that was on the average about a seven day Journey on horseback so can you tell us about any other times that you visited Philadelphia either before the the Continental Congress or after no I would say that those those visits the first when I was about 23 years old in 1766 the object of course was to be inoculated against the smallpox oh yes there were particular doctors of physic self-proclaimed who could Endeavor the ventilation particularly in Norfolk but I think I mentioned this before they were more successful in killing their patients than to kill them so if your family had the means then you could travel up to that Center of well-read and accomplished and degreed Dr sub-physic and that was in Philadelphia and so that is where I was inoculated against the smallpox by Dr shippen uh William shippen and so that was the very first trip I mentioned by way of Annapolis and back and then the second time well I had hoped the second time would be in September 17 and uh in 74 but I was the one who was then ill not with smallpox happily and uh then that next time so the second time I went up was in the spring of 17 and 75. uh so there were many other times that I tried travel to Philadelphia that was after the war but before the war and of course when we think about when the war commenced them for many that was the spring of 1775 because some of our business in Philadelphia was to draft a um well reason for taking up arms we also drafted an Olive Branch Petition even though we were taking a bombs to defending ourselves even though we formed an American Army even though we commissioned the first rank of General uh to former Colonel George Washington of Virginia and when I say commissioned the first rank of General if you were born in the colonies you could never rise to the rank of General in the British armies uh so with that our business in that spring and summer of the Second Continental Congress 1775. uh you might say the war had already begun and of course the British newspapers were printing as we would read them here the colonies are now officially in a state of rebellion so you'd already had Lexington and Concord that spring of 75 two weeks later the same action attempted in Williamsburg Virginia so the war had already commenced uh when we returned to the extension of that second continental congress in the spring of 1776 and coincidentally that Second Continental Congress was one of the longest uh that was up about oh my Heavens it might must have been over 500 uh in 30 days and that continued up into December though I had left much earlier than that so once I left that second continental congress that was in early September 1776 then I did not return to to Philadelphia until after the war was over and remember too during that interim uh the British actually occupied uh the city of Philadelphia I believe that commenced in September 17 and 77 and continued through that fall through that winter into the spring of 17 and 78. I think they left in June of 1778 and then Congress did return to Philadelphia at to that time but during the interim uh that fall of 1777 winter of 77 78 and early spring of 78 a congress met in what they met in York and they met in Lancaster far from Philadelphia to proceed uh accordingly with their business because I have always thought they might not have had much to worry about the British occupation of Philadelphia though the British accomplished building somewhat of a barricade you might call it uh that is a long high wooden uh fortress-like wall between the Schuylkill River and the Delaware River it ran somewhat as an art Arc a barricade north of Philadelphia otherwise they simply enjoyed themselves in Philadelphia and who could not enjoy themselves in Philadelphia there were a lot of dances being held and in particular one great dance one great Mission that's what they called it the mission answer and Extravaganza if you will of merriment and dancing and a whole Fleet of decorated British gun boats that sailed up and down the Delaware River can you imagine that child the British enjoyed their occupation of the city in which we declared uh Independence so can you tell me a little bit about some of the people that you met in Philadelphia I had mentioned on my first trip to Philadelphia when I was 23 I made the acquaintance of Dr William shippen he continued to be a good friend of mine uh later on uh if you will when I went up with Bob Hemmings um Bob took me and accompanied me up to Philadelphia in 75 and in 76. he was the son of bet Hemmings uh it was Dr shippen Who then inoculated Bob Hemmings against the the smallpox I met also in uh in 66 a gentleman who was a renowned teacher of Latin in Philadelphia and his name was Mr Charles Thompson Charles Thompson was later selected as the secretary of the Continental Congress he was selected as it began in in September 74 and he remained through 75-76 he was the Secretary of the of the congresses all the way up through 14 congresses the first one back in in September 74 14 congresses up until the spring of 17 it might have been the late Autumn of 17 and 88 when we were adapting and ratifying adopting and ratifying our Constitution of the United States can you imagine the experience that Mr Thompson had through all of those congresses he knew each and every one of us very very well in fact he kept them somewhat of a journal of the Cummings and the goings and the friendships and the animosities that existed amongst all of us and uh not very long ago I I wondered whether he still had that journal I wrote him inquiring of the same and he wrote back yes I still do have it remarkable that you remember and um I wrote back to him and suggested he burn it now just some things that history does not need to know about the well the personal proclivities of those who are engaging the business of government for the safety and defense of our nation and our people Charles Thompson a delightful individual he went on to become Headmaster of the uh public Grammar School uh in Philadelphia that is the public grammar school that was chartered by William Penn the William Penn Charter School was uh the well the office if you will of Charles Thompson former Secretary of our congresses what you briefly mentioned Bob Hemmings Robert Hemmings and we had a question about Robert Hemmings from Bridget that said can you speak about your enslaved ballet Robert Hemmings and how he assisted you during your time in Philadelphia oh Bob as I have often referred to him uh became quite accomplished uh in fact he was not so Adept at Carriage driving he was a young boy uh when he came on to to drive me before that I had talked about Jupiter Evans uh Jupiter Evans of course uh had driven me back and forth to to Williamsburg or simply accompanied me on Horseback to have someone accompanied upon uh and Bob uh Heming certainly did in kind he couldn't have been more than about 15 years of age I know it was born in the early 17 and 60s and and mind you Bridget he was born at the forest uh the the home of my late wife of Mrs Martha Wales Skelton Jefferson so when I married that was January 17 and 72 then Mrs Jefferson bought brought quite the dour rights with her uh to Monticello where we went to live and of course the Hemmings family were one of several families who accompanied the late Mrs Jefferson to live uh Ed Monticello later on Robert accomplished himself in many other efforts that would provide him uh the opportunity for manumission he was married I believe his wife was uh was Dolly and and Dolly lived with a doctor I believe it was in uh in Fredericksburg a doctor uh Sachs I believe his name from the germanies and so Bob would go back and forth and visit with Dolly many many times well after a time you realize that this couldn't continue to their Mutual happiness and so uh indeed I then provided his manumission uh and his freedom that he could go uh go be with his wife a couple of questions Tara asked another one was Ben Franklin there when you were in Philadelphia and if so were you friends well Tara I will tell you when you think of those that I did not meet in my first trip to Philadelphia in 1766 but had the great opportunity and happiness to meet later when I returned almost 10 years later in the spring of 17 and 75 Dr Franklin was one of them and I would say another was John Adams uh John Adams had attended that first Continental Congress in Philadelphia in 1774. a doctor Dr Franklin was not there he was still in England but he returned from his time in England and good Heavens he was in England I have upwards of about 17 years he was pleading our cause during the end of that time he had attracted the attention of Mr Wilkes and Mr Barr uh Edmund Burke but thank heaven he returned to be with us and to be seated in that second continental congress in 1775. we became good friends and uh when you heard me just reflect upon Mr Adams and now Dr Franklin imagine the three of us were able to sit together uh the next year in the spring of 1776 when President Hancock John Hancock appointed the three of us to a committee of five men uh to draft our Declaration of American independence evidence the other two being Mr Roger Sherman of Connecticut and Mr Robert Livingston of New York but Dr Franklin was surely our Mentor in so many many ways his experience was nearly illimitable and to think that he had been postmaster of the crown uh of the colonies had ridden throughout traveled throughout all of those colonies and to think he was a newspaper man at the same time I could not think of another individual who had had as much information and as much experience of all of these former colonies and knew how to get it across in the newspapers to inspire people and particularly to make people think not another individual to my mind and a mind of many others uh than Dr Benjamin Franklin we have another question asking about your collaborations with George Mason on Crafting the Declaration of Independence you want to talk a little bit about that well Colonel Mason was not in Philadelphia during that spring of 17 and 76. but you are not incorrect to suggest that collaborating on our Declaration of American independence and the reason I say that is because though I traveled to Philadelphia in the spring of 1776 directly from Monticello from my home uh that spring of 1776 it was occurring in Williamsburg Virginia uh the efforts to create a Virginia Declaration of Rights and that was foremost under the guise of Colonel George Mason that Virginia Declaration of light rights and all of its articles I think upwards about 13 to 15 articles uh certainly pronounced boldly uh what actually you could say was written here in the summary view of the rights of British America but more specifically pronounce these rights boldly unto uh the colony of Virginia and uh those that Declaration of Rights talking in within it uh the self-rule and and direct representation of Virginians although we have to be cautious when we say direct representation we have to remind ourselves now uh even these many years later those who were properly represented were the white male freeholders uh 21 years of age or older still secure in the part of their freeholdings not only in land but also in labor that it also the Virginia Declaration of Rights purported the inalienable right of an individual to hold their opinion upon religion as they should choose although a truck that I had with that because it is said that uh Colonel Patrick Henry was of influence in that particular article was that uh within it it announced freedom for religion's religion uh through Christian forbearance so if you're talking about freedom for all religion well perhaps that was a pointing to one uh in preference to to many many others but the Virginia Declaration of Rights was decidedly an influence uh for the work of the five men on the committee appointed by President Hancock to draft a declaration of American independence uh by that time by early June of 17 and 76 we were familiar with the Virginia Declaration of Rights some say that the Declaration itself could almost be an entire plagiarism of the Virginia Declaration of Rights I would not suggest that by any means they are similar no one can deny that fact but I would say what is probably the reason why many would think that is because all of us and I'm not saying so much in Virginia but throughout the colonies we were all thinking the same thing at the same time we had been for quite a while Virginia was well many Virginians will tell you the largest the wealthiest the most populated I'm not going to deny at that time of the general population of all of the colonies was about two and a half million a two million about five hundred thousand uh souls and and Virginia uh probably was upwards of about oh 550 000 uh I would recommend the the second largest of the colonies was Pennsylvania that was followed by Massachusetts uh that would be followed then by uh well North Carolina and Maryland vied one with the other but the one thing for certain Philadelphia was the largest city uh in all of those colonies at the time upwards of about forty thousand Souls so much larger than even the small little village you could call it of Richmond uh even a smaller Williamsburg at about 2 500 Souls uh second to Philadelphia you might look at New York uh I would say New York maybe 23 000 Souls all together then go to Boston Boston maybe at 15 000 Souls uh then uh my Heavens you could go to Annapolis uh suggesting in Annapolis that there might be oh no Charleston let's go to Charleston before Annapolis uh Charleston upwards of about 11 000 souls and then go all the way North to Newport Rhode Island at about ten thousand Souls so again this is is somewhat um extant though extraneous you may think yet very necessary to realize the potency of what everyone had been thinking particularly in the centers of newspapers and what had been printed in the newspapers uh and thereby in Virginia itself in Williamsburg to she manifest finally a declaration of the rights not only are Virginians but the rights of Englishmen throughout all of the colonies I beg pardon for the ramble but I do want to be distinct and clear that our Declaration of American independence is not word for word and exact copy of the Virginia Declaration of Rights it was influenced very much by the Virginia Declaration and I think influenced the thinking of many many people not only throughout Virginia but throughout the former colonies great well thank you um can we talk a little bit about what impressed you most about Philadelphia maybe some of the architecture or whatever you'd like to talk about well I will never forget my first trip to Philadelphia in 1766. I was absolutely taken with the beauty of the Christ Church I believe it would have been built in the early 1750s it was said that the Christ Church there around 2nd and Market Street near right near the Waterfront was completed at about the same time the state house was finished between the fifth and 6th of fourth fifth and sixth on Chestnut Street the State House of course I understand this increasingly becoming known as Independence Hall well they were both completed at the same time but the beauty the delicacy of the Christ Church and its remarkable spire it was the tallest building in all North America it held many a visitor to that City transfixed so I would say that was one of the very first places that struck me uh when I visited city of Philadelphia and furthermore too the the design the plan of the streets in Philadelphia uh not uh too different from the plan of Williamsburg Virginia uh that is main Avenues and intersecting streets north south east west they called them in terms of the Medieval World best Deeds these are planned cities and as you know Williamsburg Virginia and Annapolis Maryland were planned cities they were both planned and delineated by a former Royal Governor Francis Nicholson but the plans of both of those cities Annapolis and Williamsburg are different uh to fit the Contour of the terrain Annapolis is on various Hills so you have roundabouts on the top of the the hills I think uh two two Hills there and then it says it's folks are outside of the wheel connecting those roundabouts Williamsburg Virginia is a straight plane more or less it's the highest elevation between the James River to the South the Oak River to the north so you have the broad Duke of Gloucester street down the center East West and then you head to the south of course Francis Street to the north Nicholson Street running parallel and they intersect it in Philadelphia it follows a more broad plan I believe Thomas Holmes was the surveyor commissioned by William Penn to help design the city of Philadelphia and that is done on that same 90 degree access as well so you have the north south of that Broad Street and then you have intersecting it at 90 degrees the east west of the High Street I spoke about earlier which is now referred to as Market Street and so then you have the intersecting streets running East West running north of that High Street running south of that High Street and then on both sides east and west of the Broad Street you have the enumerated streets that uh that are running in both directions so I think that is one of the most fascinating elements of the city of Philadelphia which allows if you will far more efficient of Commerce to take place the enumeration if you will of of houses and and shops and various stores and the like are easy to attend uh with that sort of delineation so that was striking to me now I will tell you as well that when I was able to return in 1775. uh a building which had been erected uh early in the 1770s and I I believe it was about 17 and 70. was the building where that first continental congress met it was The Carpenter's Hall Library uh that was created through the uh a group of Carpenters the mysteries of Carpenters that had got together in their particular trade and uh put in to create this beautiful cubital uh feat of architecture it's beautiful proportion and whom better to provide that but but the Carpenters themselves that main room in The Carpenter's Hall was where the first congress met in September 17 and 74 but what they so appreciated about the opportunity to use the building is the fact that on the second floor was this wonderful Library most beautiful library and a ready reference for anything that it they might have been arguing and debating during that first Continental Congress so having the opportunity to return to Philadelphia in the spring of 17 and 75 not having been there for nearly 10 years I was quite struck with that that Carpenter's hall building now I do not want to estimate the state has are they in Philadelphia where we met in 75 and continued to meet the assembly room and of course the Supreme Court room across the hall from the assembly room there that is a magnificent structure in fact I will tell you that the Bell Tower and the clock tower itself though not as high as some people have told me it is now was most magnificent and particularly for a clock that was built and and placed inside that Tower facing west so you could see as the city was growing Westward they are towards the Schuylkill River that many would be able to have the opportunity traveling down Chestnut Street Eastwood to be able to see that clock I think it was the spark family that accomplished that or Sprague spark Thomas and and Peta uh SP well nevertheless I am I but that's the short answer so I have a question from Christine and she would like to know if you were involved in the introductions or romances of anyone while in Philadelphia and she particularly mentions the Madisons and wonders if they might have met there well that was sometime later Christine uh I could no I was not uh to an extent um that was in the in the 90s when uh I believe our our government was um was being seeded them trying to recall but I do not recall that being so much at that time Mr Madison James Madison uh had just come to Williamsburg now this is the James who received his his Collegiate Enlightenment at the Presbyterian College in Princetown New Jersey he arrived in Williamsburg Virginia uh at the time that I was going up to the uh to the second continental congress in 76. so it was not during that time but it was later uh as the government continued to convene in Philadelphia that uh Mr Patterson was uh was introduced uh to the um uh Widow Todd uh at the tavern at Gray's Ferry this is what I am recalling hearing I was not there uh and he was introduced to the Widow Todd yes now I know I was not there by Aaron Burr Aaron Burr introduced the two of them it was at Gray's very Tavern so how providential uh in itself that the two of them then became a very very happy couple you may know that the Widow Todd's husband John Todd the most successful uh lawyer in Philadelphia passed away during the yellow fever epidemic so that that proves it was much after that was of course in the late Autumn of 17 and 93. and uh and I had left Philadelphia uh that late Autumn and did not return until of course uh I was elected vice president of our nation so as Mr Todd passed away and I believe their young son as well passed away from the yellow fever the Widow Todd was not a widow so very very long as I'm almost certain she had quite the retinue of suitors there uh endeavoring to get a hand but but all of all happily it was Mr Madison you know as you reflect upon the various taverns in Philadelphia reflecting upon the Gray's fairy Tab and that was a delightful place to convene but I remember when we were in Philadelphia during that second continental congress that a Mr Joseph Clarke had a Tavern right across Chester Street on the north side of Chestnut Street from the state house so most of the delegates would convene that Mr clocks uh then of course there was the sign of the Conestoga wagon that was down Market Street a bit of a distance a couple of bucks from the state house but many would gather there at the sign and the Conestoga wagon and how appropriate too because some many of those who were coming into Philadelphia from the germanies to start a new life coming into Philadelphia would then Embark from the city of Philadelphia Westwood along what I had mentioned was the Carolina Road and they would follow that out west through Pennsylvania come down the Shenandoah Valley all the way down to Hillsboro in North Carolina and uh and father the gnat then there were many a Rising Sun Tavern uh how they get the names I have no idea but I know there was one along a great Avenue known as rising sun in Philadelphia and of course that would be on the east side uh though the West Bank of the Delaware River where you would see the Rising Sun uh come up over New Jersey first and then who knows maybe some of those who were in The taverns uh an overly long time through the evening might not have known anything until they woke up in the same chair and table to the Rising Sun well I think we have time for one more question and this question is from Patty and she would like to know what was your favorite memory of your time in Philadelphia foreign you know I I cannot help but think for the very first time uh Mr John Adams that spring of 17 and 75 and the reason I say that and I do not wish to ignore uh seeing Dr Franklin I had seen him earlier when I was a young boy as he traveled through the colonies as postmaster of the crown uh he was certainly renowned but so was Mr Adams Mr Adams was renowned because of his defense of the British soldiers as a result of that riot in Boston back in March of 1770. many refer to it as the Boston Massacre and and the fact that at that trial he made a statement uh which certainly influenced many of us as we met in Philadelphia to get the facts right to know that we were secured in our inherent right not being able to petition for redress or grievances though we tried the right to take up arms and defend that right defend our inalienable right given the man not be any government not Penny ruler but by Nature Nature's God and that was Mr Adam's statement at that trial facts are stubborn things there are stubborn things that go well beyond the influence of any one individual any one group of individuals because they are facts they have been secured for some time so I would say that remains a very happy memory and I'll never forget when he perhaps more than anyone else spoke at length as to why we should come together e pluribusunam to create a new nation that I stood what was moved to stand up and to applaud his his wonderful wonderful speechifying and elocution so I look upon that as perhaps most delightful I look upon later trips that I made to Philadelphia meeting so many others that have remained lifelong friends uh staying at Mrs House's boarding house uh becoming good friends with Elizabeth House of Tris and and here I know I'm going to Embark upon many an individual and many a wonderful time that I had yet again in Philadelphia when I returned and there as Secretary of State and then later as our second vice president of our nation so perhaps we can save that for another opportunity when we meet we may meet again uh here in Philadelphia and enjoy all of the Marvels that the considered continues to offer uh so many who come here reflecting upon our past let alone simply to enjoy fine hospitality and that great sense of freedom of the mind which the Quakers I want to impart upon so many you know I cannot forget that it was in Philadelphia that I first bore witness to that inherent right to hold one's opinion upon religion as one should choose it was the city of churches freedom for religion that I saw there first it offered the very first system of schools to which could be enrolled poor as well as wealthy and female as well as male and I was able to speak with individuals uh both uh of the Germans let alone an Englishman who were very concerned about forming together a slave emancipation society that did not happen when I was initially there but it did come to pass in Philadelphia and so I cannot help but think as we meet again that we can explore and reflect upon so much for which that City will ever remain renowned thank you very much and thanks for joining our live stream today with Bill Barker and we will see you next time a pleasure

Channel: Thomas Jefferson's Monticello

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Length: 40min 16sec (2416 seconds)

Published: Wed Jun 21 2023