Thomas Howard: Chance or the Dance - Part 1

[Music] hey there I'm Eric Metaxas this is Socrates in the city it's a little different from our typical Socrates in the city events in fact it's very different there is really maybe not exactly a typical Socrates in the city event we've done a number of different kinds of events the most typical we do in a club private club in New York City but we've done them in in a number of venues we've done them in auditoriums we've done them in Oxford England at st. all dates with a very small crowd we've done them in the South of France with John Lennox but today we're doing something even unlike all of those we are in a private home this is the home and of Tom and Lovelace Howard Thomas Howard is someone whose books I had the privilege to encounter around 1989 shortly after I had my own conversion to fate somebody suggested that I must read this book by Thomas Howard and I read the book and it changed my life that's the short version the slightly longer version is that I was so taken with what he was saying in the book chance or the dance being the book that I was astounded it was not just what Thomas Howard was saying in the book which was itself astounding but the way he wrote it it's hard for me not to go on and on about his prose style it's simply spectacular and unique but what he writes about which we will get to in the in the conversation I'd never encountered the idea before he calls the book chance or the dance a critique of modern secularism but it really puts the medieval Christian worldview against the modern secularist idea of the world but in in a way that I've never seen before or since I've reread the book many times and I'm convinced it's literally one of the books written in in the 20th century if you think that's hyperbole I'd invite you to read it and then let's quibble together but I found out that it had gone out of print it was for many many years published by Ignatius in fact the book was written in 1969 I don't know who the original publisher was but it had gone out of print and I thought a book this great cannot go out of print so we contacted Ignatius and said will you please put it back in print if it helps I'll write a foreword to it well I'd love to do a Socrates in the city event with Tom Howard talking about it anything so that people can appreciate this book as I've appreciated it it's it's just so wonderful it was of course still available on on Kindle but I was thrilled that Ignatius took me up on my offer and that the book is out in a new edition where the foreword by me that's the only thing that spoils it but you don't who needs to read the foreword just read the book it really is magnificent it's been my privilege to know Tom since 1998 I met him I guess it would be what that was about nine years after I read the book I went to Oxford England for the centenary celebration of CS Lewis's birth the CS Lewis foundation was putting on a two-week long conference with tremendous speakers I was at the time working for Chuck Colson and I read the list of speakers and Peter Kreeft was there and Chuck Colson was speaking and on and on and on and lo and behold Thomas Howard was going to be there and I thought this is to my mind like meeting John Cheever or Dante I said I can't believe I'm gonna get to meet the man who has written this absolutely extraordinary book chance of the dance which changed my life but I did get to meet him I write about it in the foreword even meeting him was a glorious moment it happened happily at in the quadrangle of maudlin college which was CS Lewis's college in Oxford and it was sunny in Buda full and it was a wonderful meeting but then a couple days later I got to hear Tom talk I'd never heard him talk before I'd only read his writing and he talks as he writes which is to say gloriously he spoke in the Sheldonian theater the one of the most glorious buildings on planet earth designed by Christopher Wren and afterward we got talking and and we became friends and I've had the privilege of many many conversations with him over the years sometime I think around 2002 I had him speak at at Socrates in the city we weren't filming them back then but he spoke on this book chance of the dance but I thought I really would love to have a conversation with him about that book and about anything anything I talked to Tom about it just it's hard for me to shut up when I'm talking to somebody as lovable and fascinating as as Tom Howard because I can't believe I get to have the conversation with him so I hope you'll forgive me for that in advance because I know myself but it really is a it's a treat for me to have been able to be his friend and to get to know him beyond his books but the reason we're doing this is so that you too can get to know him a little bit and so that you will be so the your interest will be piqued and you'll want to read his books he's famous for a number of books Christ the tiger many people know Chancellor the dance is certainly my favorite but there are a number of them and if I can get Socrates in the city audience interested in reading them I will be thrilled beyond thrilled so in a couple minutes we'll sit down right here in Tom and lovelessness living room and we'll begin our conversation but I'm really grateful for your tuning in thank you Tom Howard welcome to Socrates in the city thank you I I really get sort of speechless or unable to stop talking around you because we have so much in common and so much have you you've written has influenced me so dramatically and so deeply you are hard-pressed to own up to that because you are overly humbled but I'm gonna I'm going to try to have a conversation with you about your life and about your writings but principally I want to talk to you about chance for the dance of your many great books my favorite it's a book that genuinely changed my life when I read it I think I've told you that I don't know if you have ever believed it but I'm just gonna keep saying it and I'm I'm really so excited to have the opportunity to talk to you in general but specifically at least initially specifically about chance or the dance so why don't I ask you the most basic question of all can you sum up the idea of chance of the dance people say to me what does that mean and I tell them but since you're here I'd rather that you tell them well I suppose the the title touches on you know any an almost limitless topic namely is you know this scene that we're in this universe this world from Howard this bit of history and so on is it it all come about by mere chance the whole drama of us being human and living in history and so forth did it all come about by chance or is it a exquisitely orchestrated drama such as you might see in a formal dance where the people who know how to dance it looks free and liberating and exultant and so on but anybody who has ever tried to dance knows that you can do a little bit of stumbling at first but it ends up looking like a mode of freedom you know and I think that would give us a little clue as to how a Christian understands being human I mean are we have we learned the steps of the dance what are the steps of the dance you spoke at Socrates in the city right in the beginning of the whole thing so maybe 2002 I think it was at the the Metropolitan Club in New York City and you spoke about chants of the dance and I remember you saying then and before that in a phone call that it all boils down to does the universe have meaning or not but the way you put it really was does the modern secularist version would say that everything happened by chance therefore nothing means anything which is a horrifying concept there's no meaning in the universe or everything means everything which is hard to process but you talk about the medieval Christian view versus the modern secular view I love the fact that you do come from this kind of medieval approach I mean it's we're gonna talk about CS Lewis at some point but he was a medievalist and but the idea that there was a time when everything meant everything when you looked at the Sun it wasn't just a ball of gas and that kind of thing tell us a little bit about that where where you got these ideas from well I suppose I mean these ideas being I suppose the way I look at life existence the universe being human and I suppose one less one is locked inside the rather loosely put together modern view of being human and so forth one becomes impressed with increasingly with the the the mystery and the wonder and the drama and even the exultation of being human you know what is this scene we're in and did it all just happen higgledy-piggledy just thrust together or is it splendidly orchestrated dance well you you make the case so well that the trouble in talking about this great book chance of the dance is that I never know if I want to talk about what it's about or how you say it because you're writing in it is so beautiful and again I don't want to embarrass you although I do enjoy embarrassing you but I don't want to embarrass you but your writing you love words and it's why I love you and it's why I love your writing because you rejoice in the words themselves but it's always you know part of of making a point you're not just writing free verse to impress people you're making a point but you look you love words so let me ask you this where you always like that when you were a kid did you love poetry did you love words because the words and the prose in chances dance is literally unlike anything I've ever read well I suppose so is that for as long as I can remember I I have been intoxicated with words that's a lot to say that just loved it I mean I can remember when I was very small and reading it may have even been a child's version of John Bunyan's progress yeah and I can remember I think I actually I can remember walking around saying he gave him a grievous crabtree cudgel and I was getting him a grievous crabtree cudgel a grievous where were to get a more toothsome sense than that and for example the word toothsome who uses that anymore thank you you I feel like we should have a duck come down when you use the magic word and you get 50 bucks um when you say that okay i I since we have time to cover everything I want to go to your childhood your parents were extraordinary people and your upbringing is was an extraordinary upbringing can you talk a little bit about that I mean you are now a Roman Catholic you were not raised that way how were you raised in terms of faith and education well I'm the fifth of six children in the family that I grew up in and it was a very Christian household where we're in the God essentially Philadelphia I mean I actually was born in Philadelphia and both of my parents were from there and but then when I was very small they moved to a suburb in New Jersey called Moore's town and it was a lovely oldie worldy Quakertown and I went to a Quaker school we weren't Quakers ourselves but we got used to the Quaker language I mean I grew up hearing the V and thou in daily walk you know I mean and I would even with my closest friend I would speak the Quaker language real with my my oldest friend I mean we would just naturally say I'd say Joe how's thee this morning or wasn't even doing what's he been doing yeah that's what's you know Quakers don't speak that way anymore at least Nick what did he really do but that's me I didn't know that no you yeah I thought I knew all these things okay I want to hear I guess most people watching probably don't know that you have a famous at least one famous sibling can you tell us about Elizabeth Elliot yes Betty as we called her in the family his the the second oldest of us six children and it was interesting she and I in this family of six offspring but she and I had a very intriguing a very close relationship we were she was the second oldest and I was the second youngest but there was something about the love of words and all sorts of things I mean she's most famous for people who don't know for her book gates of splendor yeah I guess is the title through gates a through gates of splendor about the the murder of her husband tell us about that yeah well she was married to a chap named Jim Elliot they both went to whoo eton college together as did you yes and he was one of five young American men who in 1956 I think it was they were in mission work in Ecuador in the Ecuadorian jungle the Amazonian jungle and they were trying to make contact a friendly contact with a tribe there that are popularly called the alkis the alcohol themselves yet water ani but they most people know him as the algas right and these five fellows made a very carefully orchestrated and cautious and hesitant attempt to make a friendly contact with them and they were afraid of all outsiders even other Indians this was in the eastern jungle of Ecuador and to make a long story short they in their attempt to approach the Alka Indians as they were called they call themselves bald Ronnie they were all speared to death these fellows they were all killed yeah all five of all five that I didn't I didn't remember that yeah and your brother-in-law was was one of those five Jimi's yes that's you know you don't hear very much about missionaries being killed these days it's sort of like a nineteenth-century British joke yeah but in nineteen as recently as 1956 this happened you obviously remember it well but your sister Elizabeth Elliott wrote what has become a Christian classic through gates of splendor a famed famous book where the rest of your siblings very serious about their faith and where did your parents get their faith from well both of my parents were raised in Christian households where the Christian faith was very front and center and my father came from a literary line of people and my mother's family her father was a businessman in Philadelphia and they my father and mother when they were the first five years of their marriage they were in missionary work in in Belgium it wasn't jungles and savages five years of your parents marriage were missionaries in Belgium yes I've never heard that that's amazing yeah and this is in the 20s yes it would have the 20s yeah it's ours before I was born but they my father was teaching in a Bible School in Brussels and they raised the first couple of kids of the six of us in the family by the time I came along my father had been called back to the US to become the editor of what was then kind of a flagship journal of conservative Protestantism or evangelical Protestantism the name of the journal it's G function out but it was called the Sunday School times so before Christianity today there was something called the Sunday School times and I didn't remember that your father was in fact he had editor of that that's that's a pretty big role in evangelicalism in America yes I mean given that metier that situation it was you know a prestigious Journal and position there you know had a certain a class to it all right you get another 50 bucks for using a cloth thank you Tom thank you Tom we're not gonna be able to afford this yeah make pa was was close but but that I didn't know this okay so your family was very serious about its Christian faith I mean I sort of knew that but I don't remember your your father's role when you were let's say in high school did you know that you were in love with language and that you wanted to be a writer and a teacher of literature I I don't know whether I would have defined it that way but the truth of the matter was indeed I I absolutely was intoxicated with words and language we so you were thinking of being a writer or I can't remember when you began corresponding with CS Lewis was that after college uh goodness I hardly remember I it must have been after I'd graduated from college from no and your degree in Wheaton was was English yes where you might hope to do with an English degree I have an English degree and I know it's not no yeah it's not easy there's no job you can get right major right I think well it was partly because of the faculty the chairman of the English department at the college where I when Wheaton College in Illinois was it was that Clyde Kilby yes okay forgive me I ought to have mentioned at the beginning you dedicate this book chance of the dance took like Kilby yes so why why did you dedicate the book to him well my goodness he was he was my mentor my intellectual mentor and was it was the icon of a of a great and noble and profoundly civilized man and also exhibit a of what a Christian gentleman really is you know he was a southerner from Mississippi and you know he could talk like a cracker but he was a profoundly luminously civilized man did you say luminously yes not numinous Lee well maybe numinous Lee as well better luminous as well I figure with you I might as well ask because it could be either so okay so so he obviously was important to you I ought to have known that since he dedicated the book to him look you've written so many wonderful books but as I say to my mind most of what you say is summed up in enchants for the dance there's something about it that it points to everything else you've become and you know it seems you wrote it very you were very young how old are you 32 it must have been somewhere along in there I can't even remember I don't I don't then when I wrote her how old I was I want to ask I think you're correct I I want to ask you some some writerly questions did it take you long to write no I I wrote almost as fast as I speak okay I mean I I think this is when I when I have to say that I resent you deeply I say yeah deeply so you told me this once before so I think I already knew you were gonna say this but that's an amazing thing because the book seems almost like poetry it's so beautifully written so balanced and organized but you have said that to me before that you have a facility for for writing that way it's an amazing gift are you aware that it's a rare gift well people have have said so but I you know if you're the the piece of merchandise yourself you don't know what it's like being a dishrag I mean there you are um that's it's a big deal though because there's so many buddy who will read the book and I hope everyone will read the book it's not required reading by the way Oh actually it is you didn't you didn't realize it's it's now required reading but it's you know it's short and it's glorious and it's lapidary and I think that now I get 50 bucks but it's basically it's remarkable to hear you say that you wrote it's almost effortlessly that that's that's the way you you write well the first book I wrote was one called Christ the time right and chance of the dance was it was a convenient phrase or a handy phrase I had been familiar with it because it is a line from TS Eliot okay and in one of his poems he says was it chance or the dance did everything just get flung together right or was it an exquisitely orchestrated dance the steps I mean what we're in here as human beings this the strange species we belong to you know we're not glowworms and we're not Apes and you know we're not peacocks and so on like I think some people wish they were I think they are but they're there we are so it it was just a question of okay what is this scene we mortals or Han we human mortal okay but you you you you get a lot of what you say in it from the medieval view so of course it makes me think of Louis well we'll talk about Louis in a minute but because I know you met him and I want to hear about your time wid CS Lewis at his home in Oxford but that medieval view talk a little bit about that medieval view the idea that it's a dance there's something particularly medieval about that idea because we think of a different kind of dance yeah we don't think I think in the book you referred to the frog or the you know you're more than what to see or that you know like because he wrote at 1969 but the point is that when we think of dance today it's a little bit different from when we think of medieval dance which is orchestrated and yeah the whole book is filled with with those ideas the idea of the lion as a king actually I one of my favorite parts of the book that I can never get out of my head how do you pronounce the dog the cannot dog borzoi Alfred cannot borzoi borzoi yeah so there's a chapter I think it's called of dish rags and borzoi and you talk about seeing a borzoi in Washington Square Park you lived in New York City right I will never get that out of my mind can you talk about that what the word Zoe represented oh well if you've ever seen it's a like an Afghan hound or a Russian Wolfhound I mean it's a large slender dog and you realize you you can't just chuck a boys away under the chin I mean there's something awesome about a borzoi or most people know it as a Russian Wolfhound or an Afghan house there's something regal regal that's a perfect word I probably got it from your book yeah well princely I had never thought of that before that that you know you're making the case that this is not incidental that this dog has this princely mean or gate that there's something about that dog that that points to the idea of royalty yeah it's not incidental it's not just a quirk it's not a random mutation that led to it looking like this no and you you make the point that that matters yeah I mean he was he was made that way too and you used the word regal there is something regal about a borzoi you realize you feel as though there's there's a certain mystery or solemnity about you know he's not a he's not a little puppy wagging his tail this kind of thing you feel as though he's you know he's in control here or something this this bores away yeah I mean there are awesome dogs you know and that word has become ruined now you know it's awesome man right but you know but he's really they're really are awesome they seem to float along what is particularly striking is once you acknowledge that they're once the reader acknowledged is that you say yes yes that's true that's true but then you go on to say god intended this that in creation he has given us parts of himself and different images and things it's not random I think you talk I don't know if you talk about hyenas skulking around or I sometimes these things are my glosses on something I've read but you know in explaining your book I say look at look at why excuse a hyena why would we say skulking and why do we imply that that's pejorative why do we why is that pejorative to skulk whereas to float you know across the Russian steppe like a borzoi is somehow beautiful and positive I mean I've never thought about any of that until I read your book well it's I suppose it's it's a way of thinking isn't it yes I'm looking at existence life the whole show yes yes Lewis called it I mean what is a what is a borzoi as opposed to a little Wiggly wrangly dachshund or something who might like very much dachshunds I mean they have their own regality but I think to to be a Christian in one sense if it's you you've got the whole drama the whole cast of characters arrayed before you in being human and living life on this earth and so on you you you've got cues and clues to the nature of the dance which was the old word that they used to use meaning what CS Lewis calls Thea the whole show you know it's you said that twice now I've never heard that Lewis calls the cosmos the great dance the whole show the whole shebang but he well so he I well inevitably we get to Lewis because I can't help them when it when I think of you I think of Lewis because I feel like you're a very long leap you're yeah typically typical of Tom Howard to speak a lie like that you uh it's a it's an extremely short leap you're practically connected at the hip you're almost Siamese literally speaking you your book reminds me so much of Lewis it's very different but it comes right out of his worldview so it's hard for me to divorce Chancellor the dance from Lewis's who as I may be this is the time to ask you was it his writing and your studying under Clyde kilby at Wheaton that helped you to begin to see this view of the universe oh I think there's no question there's there's no question that I guess my my outlook my felt on showing my world and life view was profoundly shaped by my parents in the household I grew up in and next to my parents I guess it would be CS Lewis's work I went to see him one time and he himself was sort of the living icon of what you're seeing his works what did it feel like to meet the man who had written these books that had so affected you well we had correspond I mean I wrote him out of the blue I didn't just want to land at his front door sure so I would it be okay if I just popped in for a little bit some afternoon you know he acted as though what could be nicer you know come by all means you know here's the train you take and you walk on my house at the Kalends and so I did and we went in you know he came to the door and the first thing he said was mr. halyard you know and we were off and running it wasn't a long conversation maybe I don't know whether it was three-quarters of an hour or something or less but I because I didn't want to you know presume on his time for heaven's sakes I'll bet you he enjoyed talking to you but that's what I was doing that's that's a sense that's an assumption that's it did he look healthy he only lived two years more Yeah right no he did he he had a Rubicon face and heart a somewhat tubby and no he looked perfectly fine yeah it wasn't too long after that that he died yeah but you know he just took me into a little whatever the room was whether you study or a little I study it's still there I mean it's amazing but they've gotten rid of the smoke stains and the blackout curtains from World War two do you remember any books from your childhood you mentioned being very very and reading John Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress progress do you remember other books because whenever I read your stuff and chance of the dance is filled with you know these oblique references to nursery rhymes and things did your parents read to you oh yes yeah both both our Father and our mother read to us probably every evening before they put us to bed there were six of us children no strings so but that was the usual pattern when it was time for one to go to bed stairs wash and get into our pajamas and then you know at different points in the evening according to our age and then one either our father our mother would would read to us from some good book right back man there's there's a line in chants of the dance which I think I quote in the new forward that I've been privileged to write um but about something I think you write don't expect to find cosmic order in goosey goosey gander or something like that and another place you refer to wee willie winkie and you're you pepper your writing with you know quotations from the most sophisticated elegant sources mixed in with with that kind of we really winking like wee willie winkie and i think that's why i find your writing so delightful because you you're clearly having fun thinking about these things i don't know if you're conscious of that or if that's just what you do well I don't think it's a question of so much or maybe my saying oh hey I'm sitting here having fun the point was I was sitting there having fun not thinking about sitting there and having fun you're so what is that are you looking along the Sun beam or yeah that's probably something like that right but yeah there was nothing I like better than good reading something mmm something enchanting I mean right yeah the Assyrian what is the line the Assyrian the Assyrian came down like a wolf on the fold and his cohorts were gleaming in purple and gold the first two lines of the line by good gracious yeah Bertha Shelley I think it's Wordsworth yes it again the Assyria Syrian came down like a wolf on the fold and his cohorts were gleaming in purple and gold I have to look back and like some people up I mean that lights me a lights you know and I know most of people listening to this well but I mean you quote things like that in chants of the dance and it it makes one want to read you know it makes me want to look up those poems and things like that but you're I mean I know you taught prep school for many many years and I imagine I think of you as sort of the ideal professor or a teacher because you're filled with these things you don't have to prepare a lesson plan in a sense that you're doing just comes out of you but I guess as you said that when you were little this was already something you were intoxicated as he said with words oh yeah yeah I would at that age or this age still you know I would rather read and do almost anything else and I can remember was it third or fourth grade or something in the teacher in the early afternoon gave us a choice that the class you know Sheldon shall I read a story to you or would you like to it was something like cut out Valentine's or something and the whole class Valentine gone I was the only one saying no let's have a story you with you were the bad kid honestly I have you've not written fiction though no have you ever aspired to write fiction not seriously because it but it might be because I have maybe a few times I thought that I might try my hand at a story and I can't write a story I have great difficulty writing you know coming up with plots so I steal plots for example you know a biography of someone's life the plot is already there yeah but but your prose is so beautiful that it suggests its it suggests to me that you would have written poetry or or fiction Devi written poetry right a half line of poetry you don't believe you I don't believe you but well we'll have to be respectful as the host okay at some point I knew that I would have to bring up the title of one of the chapters of chance or the dance it's a shocking three-letter word begins with an S I know there's an e someplace in it and it ends with an X I can't remember the exact word but in this chapter you do something so beautiful you talk about you know that's a the Devon how did you know we see this is your word man the divine view of this thing that we today call sex about God's idea and it's so beautiful to me that you that you do that it comes out of you know everything else everything is connected to it but writing that in 1969 was a pretty dramatic departure from you know the cultural norm sex is an oddity in a way I mean Great Scott dogs do this you know Turtles do there's I suppose I'll take your word for it I've tried to look away whenever Turtles well lean in that direction basically a mid-victorian and I avert my eyes when anything is going on dogs or whatever but so with an oddity you say and it is an oddity yes because if you think I mean if you think of us with our intellect you know our luminescent intellect and so forth you know what up what our crummy and humiliating drama that is you know what I'm doing you know and you know it's not particularly cerebral and so on we like to think of ourselves as dignified and intellect yeah you know this is yeah but but you talk about how it's a picture of you know I don't know if you say this literally but you know you're getting to the idea that it's a picture of Christ being United in in marriage with his bride it's this glorious eternal image and we become bearers of that image and you don't you don't hear people talk about that very much these days no well you just said it very well I mean that that's the problem I've read you so many times that I maybe I know it as well as I do I just but it's remarkable Tom because I didn't know this until I read your book I wasn't able to articulate these things I never read them really before or since in the way that you put them in the book and I think that it's just a gift I mean it's just it's a wonderful gift to the people who read the book and I know that Ignatius press you know publishes it it's such a it's so beautiful all their books are so beautiful hmm they do a good job with Chesterton and Howard and others but how many books do you remember many books you've written no I haven't any idea but it's not because I've written dozens and dozens and have never counted them I don't think it's more than five I know if only you only you would be so self-abnegation as to not remember the number but you could you kill me you crack me up I I can say that you've written more than more than that I know maybe the archivist in the back of the room has an idea she's holding up eight or nine fingers and you've written but you've written innumerable essays and you you have written so many essays in so many publications over the years are they collected does anybody mean to collect them does your daughter galley my wife is nodding yes yes thank you thank you oh there we are are we glad your wife has has been part of the audience today yes thank you Lovelace you know that really um that's right the night is far spent you you wrote a tremendous book called on being Catholic and even the cover is gorgeous I think it's Giotto you know when you look at the gold in the blue you have to assume Giotto shocked oh yeah but you you wrote a book on being Catholic in our second hour not now I want to talk to you about your migration from fundamentalism to Romanism or what can we call it to to to Catholicism in ancient church as it were yes one of the two lungs of what we call the ancient church I want I want to talk to you about that in the in the second hour I guess but that's another tremendous book you've you've written a number of if I can say it with you sitting here a number of important books that help frame the way people can think about things as I say to my mind chance of the dances is absolutely at the top of the list and it frame it has framed the way I think about reality I I know you weren't aware when you were writing it that it would have this effect on people but it's done that for me so on behalf of all those who've read it and on behalf of all of those who will read it now that I told them it's it's required reading and it is legally hate doesn't hate to be the bearer of that kind of news but legally you do have to read it um if you've got to get into heaven is anyone if you want to get into heaven or or into polite society um I think that on behalf of all the people who will read it after having watched this I just want to thank you because you cannot imagine the effect that it's had on so many lives and I even think of the effect that it's had on me and how it's affected people that I've affected because because I read it so it's just a funny thing I know you didn't think of it when you were writing it you just were sitting down and just write did you type or write longhand there's a there's a high tide you tell you cuz it's much faster than I mean it's it's it's painful tomato right do you type legibly how else can i that's a trick question no I wanted to end on a really menial unimportant note and I think I've succeeded you how are you my friend I love you I thank you we'll continue the conversation but that's it for now thanks for tuning in and thank you thank you Eric good heavens [Music] you [Music]

Channel: Socrates in the City

Views: 27,763

Keywords: EricMetaxasSocrates, SocratesEricMetaxas, Eric Metaxas, Metaxas, Thomas Howard, Chance or the Dance, God, Meaning, Meaning of Life, History, Classics, Catholicisim

Id: pUod_MWTEjA

Length: 45min 5sec (2705 seconds)

Published: Tue Oct 02 2018