The Undercover Drug Police Who Got Addicted To The Merchandise | Crime Down Under | Real Responders

New Zealand got its first real undercover cops in the mid-70s police joined the underworld chasing ever more dangerous criminals you are stepping from the world that we all live in into another parallel existence through the 80s and into the 19th undercover agents moved with the times as well as infiltrating lethal motorbike gangs they were even targeting drag hawkers selling to tourists James Bond had his license to kill we had a license to have fun but some of the agents who'd made the program a logistical success were now the police's broken soldiers with a guilty secret of the New Zealand police having been dragged into a public debate over the hazards of undercover work the police were forced to radically change the program as it headed into a new century [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] what you get is an agent after you've been in the scene for a while is everything just speeds up around you become extra perceptive about people what they're thinking what they're doing what their actions mean you can walk into a pub and basically scan their whole pub in seconds without looking like you're looking to see if there's anybody that you've arrested previously sitting in there andrew harland had arrested many criminals in a few short years as a uniformed officer the X Bushman joined the police as a 42 year old but soon made up for lost time I made it my business to get as many of them as I could hunt them from my hunter quickly drafted into the undercover program and II now started hunting matter matters titans gang a tight-knit motorcycle club dealing in Class A drugs and stolen goods I think when you're looking at gaining access to a gangs the most impenetrable would be the smaller motorcycle gang because they are tight and they've got very strong sense of professionals and obviously the smaller the group is that the lists is surface area there's be able to penetrate there are some pretty dangerous occupations in the country but I can't imagine too many it would be more dangerous than going undercover as a police officer and trying to infiltrate gangs and II gained access to the Titans and a sanctum was just nine words spoken in the street to the gangs treasurer we're talking about his Harley I just sort of looked at him I gonna know in sort of a way I looked at him and I said uh you fellas hooked up with an H a bruh what that means is are you associated with H a which is Hells Angels and it's not the terminology that a father on the street would know or understand as soon as I said that to him I clicked into a different section of his brain I I entered a different part of his world and from that one sentence Tim eventually came to my motel room and sold me speed for the first time gaining Tim's trust and II became the first police officer to set foot inside the Titans fortress and I really had to steel myself to walk in there and when you walk into that pad it is totally secure they open the deadlocks beat you in any photograph videoed on your way in so they've got your pictures and know who you are they take you in there to gear block the door behind you you can't get out any window you can't get over the fence there's wine eating over that over the compound so when you're in there you're in there they had the police radio on speakers in most of the rooms the frightening thing was they had all the police codes beside the speakers on the wall and those were photocopies from police stations and you got to ask yourself how do they get them the Titans headquarters were raided in August 2000 and he provided the police with a map of the gangs HQ they knew every inch of the Titans elaborate defenses from security cameras to infrared laser beams and steel plated doors and his evidence was enough to have most of the gang arrested being caught out by an undercover agent brought shame to the few Titans not behind bars within six months of this termination the gang had been taken over by their rivals for the undercover program this was a glorious beginning to the 21st century and it helped leave behind an era police would sooner forget Wendy Heath was just one agent whose experiences undercover had been distressing back in 1987 her operation led to over 30 convictions but returning to regular policing was a struggle she wasn't quite welcomed with open arms you know you get people saying oh you've been in the undercover program you never trust those bastards they're all druggies when they return to normal duties many of them encountered inspectors and seniya sergeants who didn't want them and many of them had the secret that though they were addicted to and using drugs I was trying to sort of like stay away from using but what's the point they all think you are they all assume you are why not you may as well and then you find that you really need it it's become such a part of your life that you're now an edit there's a family we were but out of our depth with how to help her um you know mom and dad don't want to know that their daughter's still you know smoking cannabis and but we don't even want to know she ever did it undercover with her father on his deathbed Wendy felt he should know the truth before he passed away here he is and he's terminally ill and I'm having to front up and be honest about the fact that there's this oldest child I'm now a drug it out yeah they must broken his heart because she was his baby here one day you realize that you're actually suffering from mental problems as well and that you're depressed and that you're stressed and you're starting to suffer from physical symptoms of that in my case a pain on both sides of my face from clenching my teeth so hard at night that I was doing damage to my facial muscles your front up to the program shrink and you say you know what's the key to all this what's wrong with me well you've got post-traumatic stress disorder and you're depressed well how do you fix it oh that's incurable you'll have to prove Wendy was not the only X agent to suffer post-traumatic stress disorder also known as shell-shocked it was a common side effect from undercover work from the 70s through to the 90s to Perth meant taking early retirement on medical grounds but wendy was determined not to leave quietly in 1992 she joined with other ex agents to form the used group dragging the undercover program into the media spotlight tonight disturbing allegations that a growing number of undercover police agents were falling victims to the very drugs they were trying to combat the used group stands for Undercovers seriously affected by drugs and also the term used was how he felt Wendy chose to have her identity masked when speaking out but the used group couldn't hide from the scorn of other police officers I think they're a little bit soft I think they should have been all been told to piss off unless they had graduated to hard gear and I don't think they've got any excuse just the wrong people they thrill-seekers black-and-white thinkers not adaptable at all vulnerable guys some people see us as bad apples and they see us as variables I believe because we've broken the cardinal rule we've told the truth the used group weren't allowed one total compensation deal and were left to fail individual claims over a number of years wendy finally settled with the department in 2004 shifting back to her - danga way way deep in the South Island she has stayed off drugs for three years I love where I love because it's quiet and it's peaceful and it's close to things that relate to my family I am on ACCC so I'm always getting 20% less than what I used to be able to earn and I'm grateful for their men she was damaged as a result of that experience and we lost our sister you know but someone said to me the other day you have to follow your dream and I sort of thought about it and I don't have one I haven't had one for a long time because there's nothing left to dream about could the undercover program learn anything from the tragedies of its first three decades for current agents those lessons might just save their lives [Music] relationships friendships in the wake of the public spectacle that the youth group generated in the early 1990s the police once again re-examined their undercover program changes were put in place to avoid the mistakes of the past deployments are now shorter drug testing is also mandatory and operators are much more selective when choosing agents I believe the selection process became a measurably better it seemed to really read out a lot of the problems some years and undercover training apparently nobody has passed they just don't have any cops and if it works if you don't pass their criteria that's it where the word problems identified the agents were pulled out as a priority whereas maybe in the past and might have been some sort of tendency to well just leave in another couple of days not so by the mid 1990s it was improved remarkably and I think there can only be two the good totally to the good of the program by the 90s they were looking for officers with enough experience to stay on the rails during an operation this certainly applied to a 46 year old beat hardened cop named Andrew Harland I tuned up tender covert training looking pretty sharp you know like a pretty sharp and proud sort of a cop and I looked around at everybody else in their long here and dirty clothes pick a [ __ ] filthy look and beggars you know from the same undercover seminar Steve was deployed as an agent until 2002 he has requested we disguised his identity although he was half Andy's age Steve was much better prepared for training as soon as I was invited to go to training I was told you've got to come up with a new identity so I went to different pubs and introduced myself under my name got used to just you know it sticking my name up on you know to her gamma Paul and things just getting used to riding up different initials Steve was only 23 when he decided to go undercover and I felt that was very young I felt you had been very young to go into the police force in the first place and I thought it was probably still a bit immature or to have cope with it other people I don't think we're quite as prepared I mean there were people who I just I couldn't believe it I turned up with a bag with the real name and it you know socks would be real initials sewn into them books with the name necklace you know and I thought man yes chumps one of those chumps was Andy and his coach soon told him that he'd better roughing up or ship out unless I changed my demeanor the way I thought the way I looked I'd be gone and the undercover program from the first second that you turn up there I mean they're trying to get rid of it the new rigorous selection process was quite different to the early days when agents were sent out with little or no formal training but one of the traditions of the seminar hadn't changed agents were still preparing for life undercover with first-hand experience of drugs if only people could see the sessions you have there it'd be a lot of people run country be quite envious it was just constantly a joint gun round round and round and round and then the only news was even lunians as things like shotgunning I was sitting there thinking that I needed to go to the toilet and I was so doped that I thought I can't be bothered moving I'll just pissed my pants well what's the big deal I'll just do it I actually thought it was in fact I wasn't but what what bothered me was the fact that I believed I was and it didn't bother me and I didn't like that also attending seminars were operators looking for agents who would be a good fit for their particular mission rob was targeting a stolen goods record and South Auckland and Andy looked like the right man for the job plan for operation tooth was to open up a secondhand store in Pepper Toto and put Andy in the store I look like this what kind of duty or mean that ain't hung around and second-hand shops I was perfect for before long Andy's cover gave him access to an organized crime ring that was stealing over a million dollars worth of electronic goods in now I used to take great delight and getting the particular Joker or the criminal that I was worth to turn the surveillance system on for me and how you turn the surveillance system on is was you switched the light switch off and that activated the camera there was a little personal thing on my nose loved saying to them Bob Oh could you turn the light on for me in the end we've got the whole lot of them as a result of this deal we did the truck driver security people people on the computers people in the warehouse to get the whole lot at the end of that operation while Andy was roughing it in Papa toy toy Steve's first assignment was considerably more upmarket responding to complaints from tourists about pushy drug-dealing tour guides the rookie agent was sent off on the trip of a lifetime I was had a blast you know the Commissioner of Police gave me a pocketful of cash and I said go forth and have fun my son you know I went a helicopter ride and went ice climbing it's brilliant the first mission he went on seemed to be a little bit of a young but if a holiday camp really of course my poor old operator on that job around the South Island he was following me around in a camper van and so I run away you know meet up with having the camper van and so I need more cash and he's like Jesus I gave you a thousand bucks he said what are you doing you know and I said well just been on a helicopter ride on the Franz Josef glacier if you really need to know adrenalin wasn't the only drug Steve was getting the 23 year old agent found his adventure sports skills didn't count for much when he attempted his first drug buy while under the influence so here I was sitting on the marinus when I could popular security guard a couple of hoodlums and I went to do the deal buying this out and I pulled my cash out and I started counting it out and I was I was just so smashed that it was like 200 or 250 or something for the ounce and I pulled it up about 5 20 years and said there you go and he's like what are you doing here monkey now you trying to rip me off and so they took off and then Isis lifts smashed on the waterfront thing our this is my first deal blown net despite his botched first detainment Steve went on to become one of undercovers best weapons against crime ultimately facing the might of the mongrel mob unlike most agents 46 year old Andrew Holland had a family of his own before he headed to Auckland he opened a conversation no wife really wants to have smoking dope and things is not the only thing you want you may have to do in the undercover premium like you may look like a complete and utter clown at times that if you never like if you never slip with some woman you know that some woman that was being basically handed to you he may have to get in bed with another woman for instance and I said but that's not you that will be the undercover you and I can't accept that it wouldn't have been a betrayal as far as I was concerned it would be part of the job and she basically said to me well gave me permission on the basis that I a hundred percent used condoms for obvious reasons it didn't take long for Jill's extraordinary pardon to be considered I remember this model she was a beautiful woman oh that I was buying speed off she come up to me and I queued Bible to speed off and she'd actually put her hand into a bra because that's where she used to keep it and test the cops give her sister and she'd pull it out of her bride it was all nice and warm and so I mean she was a beautiful woman and she'd come right up to me and said Oh Andy I've got nowhere to sleep tonight and look they would be ride the always mate and I tell you she must've thought I was queer I didn't take her up with it you know because I not only just for reasons of not wanting to do it but I didn't know what her motive was fidelity to his wife wasn't Andy's only issue we were warned very carefully in our training about woman we might be at a table somewhere doing a dope deal and this woman's standing back in the kitchen looking at you thinking what the hell is that joker doing in our house buying dope we don't even know the bastard what's he doing he see they can ask questions at a joker why not want to ask why not want to come up to you and say are you a cop because you might punch him in the [ __ ] nose they [ __ ] call me a cop mate you know what I mean that woman they put their woman on to you mate meanwhile his taxpayer-funded Joyride over Steve was starting his first long-term operation sent to Northland to target drug runners Steve needed the right look and most importantly the right wheels I made the same mistake every one day it's about the props that you have that to make you feel like you're a criminal you know the the wraparound shades the beanie and the car was a prop and I went and bought a lowered holton with Meg's and I thought I was the business and that car was actually a real liability because it's stuck out of dog's box I could not drive anywhere an orphan without people spotting that car and I actually tried in the middle of another deployment to get rid of it and I just wanted to go and buy you know like my granny's car you know drive around it despite the flash car Steve quickly acquired the right running mates to help him get alongside his targets a running mate is one of an agent's most important assets a trusted criminal associate who can grab them access to the underworld I think it was one of the benefits of being a young fella was that there's just a natural inclination for people to sort of take me under under they won't you know I played it but I was young and naive and just you know a bumbling idiot sort of thing this makes with people they were a good team 15 years older than me quite early on in an operation a guy walked up and up to me in a pub sit straight out to me you're an undercover agent you're a cop I was just about to tell me bugger off and my running mate turned on him great and by the scruff was making and threatening to punch him out here I was I'd only been in the town for that maybe three four weeks and you know here's my running mate threatened to punch out a long-standing friend on on the basis that he was calling calling me an undercover agent like many agents Steve began to see the people he was setting up to eventually betray in more subtle shades than black and white there were good times going round of golf for the couple of quite fair members you know stripping down to Mandy's and going getting puppies and cockles out of the out of the river underneath the waitangi bridge with her with a mate you know going for a few road trips with the boys Steve's moral compass was tested when he experienced life on the other side of the law I was at a pub and right here and we went outside to have a joint and as fate would have it just as just as I've taken a very gonna miss join the cocktail pulls up behind us shines a spotlight straight through that windows sees what's going on and they like tough to see out electronic equipment I was on my boot is just pulled out and chucked on the ground and brain and I said protested to that next I was held up against the car with someone's hand around my throat and these cops I could just I could tell they were simply angling for angling for a fight the whole experience really shattered a lot of faith I had and the police's this organization is of total good and ease operation was also proving difficult an operator's home was supposed to be the agent safe haven but a clash between Andy and Rob's wife spelt trouble it would be fair to say there was a bitter animosity there between Andy and my wife Rob's wife began to increasingly question the sanity of both of us about what we were doing this fraught relationship began to take its toll the tension and the household came to a head one night Andy had just done a really good deal when he had a few pounds of cannabis he'd come over in the middle of the night and we were taking the statements but we had to do something with the drugs I'm wanting to leave them in the garage because you could smell them as you walk past the house side we had them inside in the house just like absolutely stuck and the the poor wife came out and she wasn't too happy Rob's wife immediately started screaming at me get that stinking Barry here I've got a child you know you know I've gotta talk it made me feel exceptionally uncomfortable in the house because I was obviously causing friction between them and I'd I actually got up and left trying to balance the two was extremely difficult and in the detrimental to my relationship where she broke up shortly after after the operation while the undercover role stretched some relationships to breaking point Steve found the opposite was true as he grew closer to his mother I guess I am a bit of a mummy's boy and I know I would find mum every day and I talked to her for the whole Drive to do what am i right it was a very safe place and the car nobody could overhear him there's no danger of anyone walking in on him and hearing him having a cosy chat to mum the road between Kirikiri Marais I was doing sometimes two three times a day and so I knew every corner and I also knew every single patch in the reception I got to know the road I think just about as well as he did it so you must be approaching here or going through the year because I'm getting that the sound I became very familiar with on the phone I probably told it too much it probably didn't help her and I you know put her at ease at all towards the end of the operation he wanted to just tie up as many loose ends as he caught so he was probably taking a few more risks well when I say to him y'all be careful don't spoil it now don't blow it don't put yourself in any danger kit so oh man I can look after myself Steve was pushing the envelope toying with a low-level criminal who had questioned his cover this guy was a prat so I started playing with him I thought no it's not right that I was I never went to that school only one to school him I've only been in Kirikiri for four months and you could just say that their concern coming in as ours and he's like well how do I know you're not an undercover agent and us will you don't do you and he said Oh have you got something with your name on it I said I have got a driver's license and so I pulled it out from the driver's license and he says it makes me feel so much better and I said why he said Wow yeah that's how you say yeah I said mate he'll shoes driver's licenses in this country any supporters and he goes the police you could just say him he was just a broken man he was gutted and a couple of times when I Drive past and I've done one more window and give him a tote and make a wailing police siren noise windows I Drive past him you can see him crack himself because he's working right [Music] certainly something you only do in the final week of your operation not the first after six months undercover steve reached his termination day and now had to betray the friendships he had made in kitty kitty he's a senior sergeant reading out the names and addresses and allocating teams to go an excuse search warrants and for all those cops the other addresses worth with Croxon but for me they were addresses with friends and they were addresses with kids that I'd played with you know that we're gonna get woken up some here he kept coming in to do a search warrant this is you know here's the agent well done here under my friend of course which just made me feel even worse and I don't think I've ever really sort of got over the fact that really I [ __ ] on all those people sure you can say you know I was doing my job and though committing crimes and all those sorts of things but at the end of the day though they were good people and they were good friends and I crapped on them very mixed feelings jubilant because he knew he'd had a very successful operation but absolutely gutted it having to betray the people that he'd got to know and like so much regardless of these feelings Steve loved the work and came to terms with this betrayal he had no hesitation going up against his next target his objective was to infiltrate the mongrel mob my entire role was basically to get as much credibility within the game as I could in a short of possible time and then introduce a further undercover agent who would then go on to do a much longer operation and actually get me gather the evidence I got a bit of advice from a senior member he said boy the way to get ahead in the mob is to make yourself useful be the go-to person if you make yourself useful you've got influence you'll you'll have friends and I'm a lawyer now and on a on a course for the legal profession there was a senior practitioner saying the way to get here to get ahead in the legal profession is to make yourself useful to be the go-to person the contrast between the people couldn't be any greater but the advice was the same patch members we only have to go into the frizzes bedroom uninvited I could just walk in a net as a place I had privileges that members some members didn't have simply because of the connections I had if you've got access to the president then the president's positions are no and his place in the clubhouse then you know one you're at the heart of abotu you're very well protected within the gang has the president's mana will allow you to pretty much go anywhere I used to wander in and out my blue jeans and a blue jersey and of course you know the more go right into the into the Reds and I know that used to took some of them off that I'd go in there wearing a blue jersey but that was part of my thing of just being a naive idiot now secure within the mob Steve simply had to introduce a new agent into the scene and his job was done but the new agent had other ideas yeah he just wouldn't go into the pit we have a massive meltdown I was quite concerned he just ranting and raving and yelling and screaming at me we were living in a house and in the middle of mob country and he was yelling and screaming police the operation that I was a craft undercover agent I was thinking shut up I heard buddy no one's side listening in such a high stakes environment with deadly consequences of his cover was blown Steve was left with no choice and I got on the phone and I run the operator and I said but my plane took it on I'm out of here and yeah the very next day I was on a plane and I am I went back to back to work and it was it was quite tricky actually I mean I've gone from one I'm sitting here smoking pot and drinking and forth with mobsters in the very next night I was sitting in a police station and Oakland having a beer with a you know some police inspector and I can tell you the conversation was better and the more prepared to many of the undercover programs operations have focused on cracking organized crime and elaborate drug rings but agents are also used to help solve violent crime outside a géraldine pub 65 year-old Desmond Payne was stabbed 14 times in broad daylight the local police had a prime suspect but no evidence Andy Holland was sent under to gather intelligence on a suspect who proved to be dangerous and unpredictable and I said I will just get me close to him in the end the campaign grant and I'll take it from there he was standing on his front porch by his hat and I simply walked over to him put my hand out I'm Jim Wright Raymond Callan and I went to the pub with him started talking about the murder on the very first day I basically said to him gee there's a lot of what's all these cops doing around here me see so I there was a murder just over there and that's one of the best things you can do as an undercover cop is get someone to mention things to you because when you're asking you're under suspicion so the trick is to get them to talk to you about it one thing the police did know about Callen was that he'd been signing the church notebook in the name of Dom one of us figured that I wonder if that means he thinks he's a dawn and the Mafia so I had introduced us into a discussion I was sitting in the Geraldine pub with him having a beer you know just in the conversation I said to him do you watch much TV and he said I like the news documentaries you know things like that Jim and I just lifted hoping he would ask me and sure enough the conversation went on and a little bit lady he said what's your favorite program and I looked at him right in the eyes The Sopranos man well I tell you I saw the devil wouldn't it man right there he never said a word he pressed his hands together others and he started contorting his face in everything and he seemed to physically grow on the bastard I mean you have never seen anything like this in my life he just contorted his face around and in a manner that you just wouldn't believe I got back and talk to the rest of the team that night man I said boy you've got the right man here man I just seen the devil after many weeks work and he was close enough to Cullen to ask him a very direct question so ray do you remember the magic he looked at me said yeah I am am I done I'm a darlin the Cosa Nostra mafia I said he I thought so men I understand me and I've been seen here to help you Andy convinced Callan that he and another undercover agent were both mafia hitmen sent to help him the agents were under constant electronic surveillance and finally made the killer crack on tape [Music] and he asked me during this conversation to help him meet other people he would have gone on to kill other people he had a mission with the help of DNA matching and evidence gathered by Andy a case was made against Callen who eventually admitted responsibility for the vicious killing the delusional Geraldine Godfather is being held indefinitely as a special patient under the Mental Health Act he can only be released with the consent of the Minister of Health but not all the criminals and the court can disappear forever and the consequences of being tracked down by an angry ex-con are terrifying in the modern era agents aren't allowed to stay undercover for long periods steve had several operations in different criminal scenes but none were more than six months in less than two years his time as an undercover was up as an undercover I do not spent 130 or thousand dollars in six months on drugs I'd spent about 40 50 be honest and on living expenses and then I go and I'm working at a police station where is one stapler that you share between the various offices and and and if you want to hole punch you go down a corridor turn right and you know big big lean speaking of Barajas and I just hate it the role that I wanted to have within the police force had changed I wanted to be an undercover agent I didn't want to go and Chuck a uniform on and attend domestics and pick some up from the local mobile station for stealing a package chunga boring the contrast between the heightened reality of undercover work and the drudgery of the beat was too much for Steve his police career fizzled out within months of his return to uniform [Music] that changeover was not so dull for Andrew Holland with criminals still waiting trial just two hours drive from his home and he was asked to return to his ordinary life cause a lot of the people that had been arrested were on bail awaiting trial I was out mowing a bit of the lawn in front of my flesh sports cow Holden we'd passed and the brakes went on but had a lot of things began to my mind I thought it just could be a mate or somebody as soon as he started to back out I recognized his profile on the cat in fact one of the most cunning well-connected criminals that ever come across oh he came and he looked a bit white he said I've just been spotted in a country the size of New Zealand leaving a double life completely behind can be difficult Andy's bosses were at first cautious about the dangers to Andy and his family the New Zealand Street assessment unit for dared locks and alarms and all kinds of things through my house that the bureaucracy soon made things worse for him and it was during this time that I was under this immense pressure that they that the local police placed me onto the Highway Patrol I've I've walked into the back pad pad I've walked into Titans I've done deals in the middle of night in Otero I mean fierce fearful situations but I'm not that stupid that I'm gonna get into of a traffic car and stand on the highway when he could be stopping anyone doesn't know who's in that car it was the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard here's a guy who's got this all this experience and criminals and burglaries and how are they act sells stuff steal stuff and all that and they go and put him on a traffic unit by himself in the country Andy refused to serve on Highway Patrol and in the fall out of that disobedience he was suspended from all police duty this is a matter of principle I've been attacked by vindictive nasty people who have used their powers as police officers in an unethical way and I'm just not gonna let it go Oh Andy does not blame the undercover program for his troubles the police once again face a familiar problem a disgruntled agent burnt by his involvement and undercover work and fighting for compensation but undercover assignments don't always end unhappily lessons learnt by police administrators appear to have limited the casualty list as the program has evolved many of those involved in the program continue with long police careers those who do leave the force are often very successful in the private sector three of the ex agents we have spoken to are now lawyers using hard-won lessons learned by living on both sides of the law yes it's rigged some lives but there's also been people like myself who look back on the whole experience and think man what a privilege to have done that it's incredible for the police the continued existence of the undercover program reflects a long-standing belief that it works however controversial the principle behind the program is a simple one to catch hardened criminals sometimes you have to join them to beat them crooks out here thank the world's followed undercover agents but it's actually very few out there operating at any one time and I think that's that's gross failure that's just crowded there's so much paranoia it's a tough job but but still something has to be done if the law is going to be enforced the one thing the crime doesn't permit isn't honest appraisal how it does its work the undergo that cover program is an essential tool of policing there has never been one time that I wish I hadn't done it it has enhanced me as a person I've got to meet some phenomenal people and you know you've done some good Patrick O'Brian was one of the longest-serving agents in the program's history over four years of undercover work took a huge personal toll on the former Catholic school boy I don't regard New Zealanders my home anymore and I'm a vagrant I spend my life traveling hitchhiking around the world home to me is a place where I will feel safe and I don't feel safe in New Zealand I do believe that everybody has to make a contribution to this to the community to their society and that was mine that was my contribution and even the knowledge of hindsight if I was given the opportunity I would do it all again it's made me what I am I am what I am because of what I did it does not apply to X agent Wayne Houseman convicted of importing heroin in the 1980s if I could choose what I wanted I would choose never to have done undercover and to still be in the police department the cost is too high and I guess that's partly selfish because I consider myself part of the cause the cost in people's lives is horrendous and I don't think it can be justified in any way shape or form despite official comment that the problems of the program have been dealt to aftershocks from the Troublesome earlier days continued former agent Clint records was deployed in the 1980s his recent trial has brought more unwanted attention Patrick and others say they're not surprised by the most recent allegations some of the things I've been reading about in the newspaper recently was pretty standard behavior for people have we've done what I'd done you know the pig dog or the pit bull probably has more value to a lot of kernels then and the woman that they associate with now if you put policemen into those sort of situations for long periods of time and then they're gonna start to value me Norman as well and I believe fear is an element of that coming home to roost those people behaved like mongrels on the scene and you can't do that and we're a blue suit developments and surveillance equipment have raised an argument that sending agents into the underworld is now an unnecessary risk the electronic stuff available there is just no need to have undercover cops and definitely no need to have undercover cops using drugs it should be stopped now before we have poor young cops as P edits if we haven't already P is the new phenomenon and the crime scene and none of the agents in this program had cause to use it the police have prevented us from contacting current agents who may be dealing with this problem but no one doubts that p has changed the face of crime in new zealand the unpredictable edition of p2 any confrontation has made policing that much more dangerous especially if you're undercover so where to from here what is the future of the undercover program do I think the undercover program has a place you betcha many undercover agents will tell you it's not worth it I don't accept that argument myself at all even from the damage that I've seen they like to say that they've changed things and that this doesn't happen anymore but the reality is not quite that way and they can't make too many claims which just could be inspect to bite them they said it in the late seventies they said it in the mid eighties they said at the end of the eighties this year than the ninth we've made changes and they make a and and we don't have those problems I just don't believe them because I've told that story I've been telling that story for decades and nothing has changed it's a tool they have to use they've been forced to use it so they do and good luck to them and I hope it still keeps going and that they can put all these mongrels away where they need to be should be stopped decent people don't do things like that stop work for decent human beings [Music] [Music]

Channel: Real Responders

Views: 301,486

Keywords: bombs, bomb, bomb disposal, mail explosive, explosive disposal, police documentary, the new detectives, forensic science, investigation, detectives, police investigation, cold cases, criminals, crimes, true detectives, sherlock holmes, real crimes, real detectives, private detective, undercover boss, undercover cop busted, undercover cops bust each other, undercover cop in the hood, real responders, beach cops, real responders uk border force, real responders uk

Id: tifdzklQnGU

Length: 45min 5sec (2705 seconds)

Published: Sun Jul 26 2020