The Struggle for Freedom: A Conversation with President George W. Bush and David J. Kramer

[Applause] thank you all thanks heck of a crowd it is indeed sir yes indeed um Mr President if I may let me just explain to our audience here and watching on live stream as some of you know we were anticipating that president zielinski was going to join us for this conversation and because of the barbaric attack yesterday by Russia the largest attack on Ukrainian infrastructure president zielinski understandably has to deal with matters at home and regrets very much that he's not able to join the conversation with you sir and with all of you here but uh plan a was to have a conversation with you and president zielinski Plan B is you and I are going to have a conversation but but but Plan B well but for most organizations hold on let me dig out of the hole um Plan B would be plan a plus for most Awards thank you Dave yes you gotta let me finish you gotta let me finish yeah yeah a little slow anyway I was thank you Laura and I are thrilled uh a that we work together uh and be that you all are here and that you give a dang about Freedom uh and how other people live and that's that's really the topic do we should we care in America about whether or not people uh can live in a free and peaceful Society and the answer at the bush Center is they're resounding absolutely and you'll hear from people today who are dissidents who need our support and help so let's focus on Ukraine first okay uh that's where we're going to start if we had president zielinski with us uh your take on the on the latest situation there Ukraine seems to be on on the March but yesterday was a bad day you know every day is a bad day if you live in Ukraine I mean this was a peaceful democracy that was growing its institutions and uh and its neighbor decides that uh Russia should own it uh and uh from that moment forward uh people of Ukraine have suffered mightily the thing that uh is instructive to the American people or should be is How brave the Ukrainian people are and how they refuse to be conquered by its neighbor and uh uh and so you know there's going to be more atrocity the question is will the Ukrainian people continue to show The Bravery they've shown and that's why I'm so sad that president zielinski couldn't join us because he's a tough dude and uh he he is uh he's gonna hang in there and so long as he gets the support needed you and he did a zoom a few months ago in the spring and you referred to him as the Winston Churchill of our time correct what did you mean by that was quite profound uh [Laughter] it wasn't bad I hope he took it as a compliment because I am a huge Winston Churchill believer I think Winston Churchill was one of the great leaders and you know I spent a fair amount of time studying the the London Blitz and watched a leader help will a people through this very dark period and that's what zielinski's doing I mean there's no darker period than to have a bully on your border willing to bomb innocent people and Destroy infrastructure and force people to live in the cold and yet here's a leader that is defiant uh for the good of his people and uh uh but other than the fact that Churchill never wore t-shirts they had a they had some good reason yeah [Laughter] they uh he shows the same amount of Courage and history's history will judge him you know as a remarkable leader I think well we certainly send our very best to him and Ukrainian people through these very difficult times um Mr President there are some Americans uh who wonder why should we support Ukraine sure uh and that's always been the case in our country there's kind of an isolationist uh tendency at times to say you know we've got our own problems let others solve it it's kind of like the pushback we got on HIV AIDS pepfar you know it's a whole generation of people dying on the continent of Africa and there were some in our country saying that why do we want to spend money on total strangers and one answer is because that's who we are where generous decent people that care about The Human Condition elsewhere we recognize we can't solve all world problems we certainly can deal with the big ones and there's no bigger problem than to have a young democracy bullied by its neighbor by an autocrat and we should care about uh The Human Condition elsewhere and we should care about whether or not this young democracy survives because the sinner it's in our national interest it's not only in moral interest International interest because and here's what the American people have got to think about what Will Europe look like 10 years from now if Putin conquers Ukraine the whole strategic balance of Europe shifts dramatically and by the way next would be the baltics with whom we've got alliance called NATO and uh the whole trading regime of the United States and Europe shifts dramatically so it affects us economically so not only does it affects us spiritually as a nation that believes in Freedom if if Putin prevails it affects us uh from a national security perspective and an economic perspective and this is a very important issue and you know I know there's voices saying well we can spend money elsewhere and do this and listen our government's spend a lot of money and which by the way is frankly a big issue as to whether or not we're going to be able to solve our debt but the amount of money going to Ukraine is small compared to how much money we're spending elsewhere and yet the consequences for failure are significant not only for the Ukrainian people but for our own country and so yeah we're big Believers in Ukrainian Freedom here at the bush Center as are you yes sir you you mentioned pepfar and I'm going to go off the track of Freedom although it's actually related um next year marks the 20th anniversary of pepfar correct you will be recognized December 1st World AIDS Day by the U.S Global Leadership Coalition we will have an event in Washington next February it has saved an estimated over 21 million lives right can you just explain for this audience because it is related to Freedom it helps stabilize countries so that they don't become vulnerable to extremist forces correct but your vision behind it well my vision was We're All God's Children every life is precious and there was a pandemic destroying an entire generation of people on the continent of Africa and we're the greatest most generous Nation ever and if we sat on our uh uh behind Laurels Laurels are laurels yeah okay trying to clean it up it's kind of hard to sit on laurels anyway uh you didn't say Laura did you I okay it was nice working here I'm Gonna Leave you know it's very and you mentioned this award I don't want any awards I've had the biggest award there is being president of the United States but I'm going for one reason because I want to remind Congress this is a program that actually worked we set clear goals measurable goals and we continue to measure the goals and therefore their money being spent is effectively being spent and that's why we're going is to help uh and but the people who serve the credit are the American people they funded the program except they have no idea what we're talking about and uh uh and so I to the extent that we're going to talk about it in Washington uh will hopefully remind people about the generous nature of our country and the impact we can have on on dealing with big issues no bigger issue than helping uh dissidents and people locked in political prisons know that there are people who care about them and uh that we hear their voices and that's what this conference is about today the freedom of agenda defined much of your presidency the your second inaugural speech was devoted to it um nearly two decades later how do you see things well one reason uh so the attacks on 9 11 really were were an ideological attack it was those who uh have a dark vision of the world versus those of us who believe in light and I say light that's the recognizing the universal desire for people live in Freedom it's not an American gift it's I I happen to believe it's an almighty's gift to the world uh and uh and so it was uh if you're dealing with an ideological conflict which I felt we were then and I still feel we are the ultimate outcome determines uh how people live and therefore I felt in order to extinguish the ideology of extremism that we ought to help others realize the blessings of freedom and it was controversial David I I couldn't believe it was controversial but it was how dare you impose your values people would say all around the world now and kind of in justification for those who squashed people's rights uh but I was uh I was determined that this country would send out a message that uh if you live in darkness we're going to try to help you and uh look it's happening in Iran right now people are desperate to live in a free society and you're beginning to see people take risk on the streets I think you're going to hear from an Iranian today iranian-american today about what's happening and the question is should we care as a country and the answer is absolutely we should care not only for the sake of Peace in the Middle East but for the sake of the people struggling against autocracy and uh it's uh and so part of our mission here is to help make sure Americans don't uh get so comfortable in this free society that they forget about others in this struggle of democracy versus authoritarianism you were just touching on this what what is at stake and is that the right way to look at this it's between democracy and authoritarianism I think it's between freedom and Human Condition and human rights versus authoritarian government that doesn't Grant those uh democracy tends to yield human dignity and human rights better than any other system but I believe it's it needs to be put in a personal connection I mean you're going to hear from a person whose mother's luck in a weaker prison camp uh you know we can argue forms of government but what we ought to be focusing on is whether or not we can help people who are locked us aside in one of the largest labor camps prison camps in the history of mankind I don't know if Joseph Kim is speaking today but he works here for the North Korean Escape e and uh this guy Kim Jong-un has got the largest prison camps even bigger than the uyghurs in the history of mankind and so should we I know we argue forms of government but initially it is whether or not uh you know the Joseph Kims of the world should be listened to and heard and anyway that's what we're doing yeah it's a again I'm just concerned about isolationism uh in our country basically saying who gives a damn and the bush Center our message is we give it to him loud and clear sir when you were were president you made a real point of meeting with activists and dissidents former political prisoners human rights advocates why why was that so important to you and what what did you get from those meetings well first of all I'm doing the same thing today yep you met with them earlier yeah absolutely even though I'm kind of about to pasture anyway uh it sent a signal around the world that the U.S president cared yep and so I was interested in uh I remember I remember uh natasharonsky wrote a great book called The Case of democracy he was a political prisoner and he told me what it was like to hear Ronald Reagan's voice and I said wow you know I'm gonna try to lend my voice and uh you know you just don't know when you're the U.S president how far your voice can travel but I guess pretty far and so meeting with these dissidents and political prisoners uh elevated their status and you know hopefully a political prisoner noted that the U.S president was meeting with a political prisoner who just gotten out of the same prison and plus there are some amazing people I mean it just it invigorated me and Laura to get to know vas La Cabo for example and this guy was like Mr courage and the world can be short of Courage uh but but to highlight courage also maybe encourages other people and the other thing I didn't do is meet with the the thugs that were ruining these countries uh I wouldn't meet with Putin I did meet him alone I was president but anyway he changed and uh uh but you know like Hugo Chavez you'll hear from a Venezuelan dissident today I wouldn't meet with him because I didn't want to lend our great status as a beacon of freedom to you know honoring an autocrat and uh you know some people disagree with that position uh no but when I did meet with uh like the Chinese leaders uh I always talked about the need to have freedom of religion and I didn't do it to embarrass him I just did it to remind them if they had freed religion in their country their country to be better off particularly when it came to helping a neighbor in need we went to church Lauren I went to church we were going to go to underground church but the minute the president shows up is not underground anymore uh but we we went to a church it you know it might have been kind of a fake church I guess but we went setting a signal to religious dissidents within China and around the world that the American president cares so I I spent a lot of time doing that David it uh it I became a better person from doing it if I can Mr President I told you this the other day um in September 2008 I was working in your state department and we were in New York on the margins of the U.N general assembly and you had just met with a group of activists and former police didn't we have a picture about Ellis Islanders yes exactly right yeah I met with uh one from Belarus yeah immediately after he was in tears because the president of the United States showed interest in his welfare and what was happening in his country so it you're absolutely right it has enormous impact yeah well I wish things had changed but they didn't it is worse in Belarus unfortunately but it's even worse than when he was there it is I mean Luke can become a satellite of Russia here pretty quick he stole the election in August 2020 but his days are numbered I think um good you know I love an optimist that's why one of the reasons I'm here um so the question is Putin day's number really the question and I think uh uh the Ukrainian policy for the United States has got to be pretty Stark and that is we hang with them until they win and then the question is can they win absolutely they can win they're winning but they won't win if the United States and the Free World says it's not worth it anymore or we're too cold let's stop supporting let's stop backing zielinski or let's cut a deal uh zielinski's if he were here and I would ask him do you think there's a deal to be made he'd say no he might put out some you know fig leaf or something but the idea of saying okay now that Putin has destroyed our country let's cut a deal with him you can have a third of our country it's not going to happen either that or he's not the Winston Churchill of the modern era and uh and so the United States you got to hang in there and we've got to recognize the man can win and the minute Russia gets driven out of Ukraine uh the uh the strong man Putin doesn't look so strong does he and the Russian people begin to question whether or not he's the right person to lead their country and so uh I can't tell you how important this issue is for us right now it's the expression I think the these regimes seem stable until they're not yeah exactly never know what the Tipping Point is but it takes heroic Brave activists and average citizens exactly exactly with our support and help absolutely um as you know Mr President there are some Americans who say we've got enough problems in our own country none of our business far away why should we worry yeah well first of all uh if it's a expenditure money just analyze the amount of money it will take to keep Ukraine free versus how much we're spending it's not very much uh pepfar was like I forgot like point two percent of the budget or some ridiculously small amount of money and yet the impact was huge and it would be the same in Ukraine and so it's not going to break our budget to support the ukrainians and the reason why is is because failure in Ukraine will uh affect future generations of Americans and unstable Europe a Europe in which a tyrant is on the March is going to affect our national security and the question is uh shouldn't we be thinking about a future generation of Americans leaving behind something better and so an isolationist America makes the world much more dangerous this is the kind of statement that irritated some people around the world but if the United States does not lead the world will not follow if the United States doesn't keep the lead on Ukraine it's less likely the European nations will want to support the ukrainians and so our leadership is indispensable for Collective action against autocracy and uh yeah I mean here's the problem it's hard to project it's hard to think about what the world will look like if if the ukrainians fail most Americans are trying to pay bills you know trying to worry about inflation they don't think about those terms and that's why this conference is important it's why it's important to try to affect policy in Washington D.C so that the policy makers think long term on behalf of the American people and Mr President I'll also mention that as a follow-on to this conference we're going to launch a new series of profiles of activists political prisoners to make sure we shine a spotlight on them to make sure the world remembers their situation as you said just for political prisoners just knowing people are paying attention yeah yeah can mean the world it's uh you know as a repeating Natan shirovski is one of the most influential books in my presidency the case for democracy this guy you know he's a courageous man and uh to hear him talk is is is uh it's a Marvel to think that he came out of that Soviet Gulag as intact as he did and as anxious as he is to help others free others and so uh yeah people you'll be inspired by the stories here absolutely yeah absolutely let's let's go back to the basics Basics yeah why does why does freedom matter why should we hear you've covered this a little bit but I just want to dig a Little Deeper why should we care about the human rights situation for Burmese for Egyptians for Cubans Venezuelans Sudanese the list sadly goes on well ultimately Democratic states yield peace if you study the history of the world democracies don't War because people decide the fate of their government and uh if you give you know you say do you want war most people say no uh you know I like to cite the example of South Korea I gave a speech one time uh to like I don't know 20 000 Christians the Billy Graham of Korea asked me to speak there got named Billy Kim and the reason he's called the Billy Graham is because he interpreted Billy Graham's famous speech in South Korea right after the right after the Korean conflict ended not in peace but in an Armistice by the way in other words the war has never ended and uh I you know I thought about there I thought about Harry Truman I said wow I wish Harry Truman could see this here's a guy who had faith in the capacity for people to self-govern and that democracy would help yield peace and there are 50 000 Christians willingly Gathering to listen to you know George W bush and uh uh I thought about uh the people who sacrificed their life the families of Korean veterans well I wish they could see this and realize that the sacrifice actually meant something I thought about the Korean people there that you know like what would their life be like had there not been a willingness to help this country utilize a free Society they'd been living in the same society that Joseph Kim lived in which is gulags and deification of a person uh and then you know I thought about our American people I hope they understand that by hanging in there and keeping troops there and able to let this democracy survive that it yielded peace in the Far East a lot of presidents before me had to deal with war in the Far East I never had to worry about it because democracies yield peace not every country in the Far East is a democracy obviously but it China is surrounded by democracies and uh anyway that's why Americans ought to think about it uh and I said I repeat Dave it's it's the long-term consequences of freedom yield peace and it takes a lot of hard work and it takes a lot of patience it's not going to happen instantly but it's not going to happen at all if the American people if the America turns us back on people seeking a better life yes sir I mean the Democratic peace Theory democracies don't go to war with each other that's it yeah did I think of that or you um I'm going to go with you um that's smart yes it is I'm only in my fifth week in this new role so I'd like to uh and we're lucky you're here I might add thank you sir appreciate it um I want to bring up one other argument that we often hear which is we have other interests in some of these countries uh trade security energy the those sometimes overshadow the human rights issues and concerns that we have how do we strike that it doesn't have to yeah I mean you can be both a human rights act of it and somebody worried about war in the Middle East and trying to work with uh you know countries to prevent war from happening you can be worried about the human condition but you can also be working with countries that may not uh be as open as society as we are to help prevent the Iranians from marching Willie Nelly throughout the Middle East and so there's there's ways to balance that but the key thing is to always keep freedom and democracy Forefront in your mind and the other thing that's really important is is that you can gain a lot of you know Kudos by hectoring leaders about you know their Human Condition in their countries but they're not going to listen to you I didn't like it when people hectored me and uh uh and so I I think the best policy is for a U.S president and the people working with them to keep freedom in the Forefront of the strategy but also never embarrass your hosts and never try to gain you know credibility with the newspaper saying oh man isn't this guy marvelous but all of a sudden you get shut out from any uh advancement of the free societies you know I was a big Arab Spring guy I thought it was inevitable oh that was a great moment people rising up and say we want to live in a free society and it created turmoil and Chaos no question about that on the other hand it's it to me it verified my belief that people want to live in a free Society and you know some of our country say that Muslims don't want to be free and I say yeah it's interesting we said that about black people in America for too damn long and so yeah there's kind of an arrogance to living in a free society and seeing others can't realize the blessings of Freedom we disagree with that here at the bush Center yes sir um we live in polarized times yes we do but is this issue supporting Freedom this is an issue it seems that Republicans and Democrats can and should agree on Matt hope so I'd hope so I suspect that the extremes of both parties there are people say you know it's not worth it uh but I would hope it's the kind of issue that people can come together it seems like to me members of Congress in both parties are hanging in there with Ukraine I hope so uh I repeat all they got to do look how much money they're spending elsewhere and say well a little bit of it should go to Ukraine at least for the sake of Peace but it seems like it Dave you know uh I hope so I mean um I'm a loyal Republican and I'm going to keep my voice out there regardless of what other Republicans say well Mr President um if I needed any which I didn't this conversation has been reaffirmation of why I'm so proud to be here it's an honor to serve here at the Institute thank you all for your interest absolutely thank you for your leadership thank you sir Mrs Bush too just tremendous on on these issues got a way to work her in there thank you well I had to recover from earlier so very deaf you didn't you didn't exactly help me out there it's going to be a good conference today it's a great conference we we still have a lot a lot to cover the the activists are I think are next if I remember the schedule and uh we will have a panel talking about what the U.S can do to help and we're going to end it actually on an interesting note about sports and human rights we have Joey cheek here to talk about yeah exactly nobody's ever heard of the guy but anyways Joey don't leave don't leave he's an Olympic Athlete he is indeed who got burned because of his support in Darfur yep he took a brave stand yeah he did and we're we're we need more Brave stands we do indeed I'll tell you something you don't know about Joey he's got a two-year-old child I actually knew that but go ahead well you're supposed to say right I mean uh yes right sorry I'm glad you we'll work on that yeah you brought that to my attention who else you got uh we have Alice Albright uh yep you know I painted her mother no that's right um the reason I did is because a she's a courageous smart woman but I also painted Henry kissing sure think about this two Jews escaping Nazism and communism in Madeleine Albright's case come to our country with basically nothing and end up being secretaries of State it's an awesome country where people can come and realize those kinds of drinks thank you for inviting her give me a chance to pitch my book uh well and also MCC happened under Europe Corporation and the 20th anniversary Alice I think is coming up in 2024 so we'll look to bring more attention to that you look at pepfar you look at Millennium challenge Corporation life-saving programs that also insist on accountability data yeah it's not just throwing money it's making sure the money is used effectively and wisely and it is life-changing yeah thank you yeah well anyway you got any other way to burn time or should you get off the stage safer if we get off the stage have you heard the latest one about oh yeah oh it's time to go thank you Bush help [Laughter] thank you sir it's a it's an honor to be up here with you thanks for joining the conference it means a great deal again our our thoughts and prayers go out to president zielinski and the Ukrainian people in this incredibly difficult time but as you said their heroism is is a testament to to the amazing people that live there who want to live in Freedom that's all it is they just want to be free and we can Embrace that sir thank you all right Dave thank you

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Length: 29min 7sec (1747 seconds)

Published: Wed Nov 16 2022