THE SOCIAL NETWORK – A Villain Origin Story? – The Good, The Bad & The Brilliant

what's up wisecrack michael here it seems like every day there's some new Silicon Valley startup that promises to change our lives forever and makes you wonder is our world turning into one big tech dystopia what's the line between our digital and real life identities and just having an identical twin make you twice as powerful let's find out in this episode of the good the bad in the Brillion where we'll be breaking down the 2010 film The Social Network this film charts the growth of Facebook from a sadboy revenge website to a multibillion-dollar digital conglomerate to help me answer these pressing questions I am joined by comedian and writer Jamie Loftus hi my name is actually Jamie Loftus Winklevoss Wow yeah I'm so ever runs your Wikipedia should now add that officially he's update that yeah yeah I'd really appreciate it and thanks for dropping that hot exclusive here we were really appreciate yeah I know I've been waiting yeah that's awesome well now that we have that out of the way what is something you like and think is good about the social network I think you first have to hand it to the mountain do product placement in this movie I've seen this movie a lot and so now I'm like starting to pick up on like little choices and in every era in college mark drinks Mountain Dew future mark at like the deficit is it a deposition yeah oh he drinks Mountain doing that streaking Martin do that a whole scene where he's like you have the minimum amount you know like he's drinking Mountain Dew I think that's a good sign though of of them realistically depicting nerd culture a certain era like it is so affecting and so well done and I like David Fincher and Aaron Sorkin are two people that as individuals I can find very grading in certain instances I don't know I just like the boys are elevating each other in this one yes I mean the piggyback off that Fincher and Sorkin or people that have a complicated relationship with Fincher I think sometimes for me is is too to be crashed just dark visually and seems to like obviously kernel light on my friend yeah I mean like literal darkness sort of weird male psychological darkness I'm also like cinematography too dark dad so he does that thing I find it annoying yeah in this movie it works stylistically yeah I love the look and feel of it I feel like it's aged really the dialogue in this movie is so zippy and I think and works so well the sort of Sorkin and Eisenberg combo I think if your clients want to sit on my shoulders and call themselves tall they have a right to give it a try but there's no requirement that I enjoy sitting here listening to people lie yeah he comes together yeah Jesse Eisenberg it's is an actor I really like who I feel like if you're not writing for him it doesn't always work yeah but in this like he's perfect for this role he's party like delivers the lines perfect like it just seems like at every level the right person is there yeah I like I like the collaboration I think it's it's good all the things that frustrate me about them as individuals work here yeah the Eisenberg thing I struggle to imagine another actor that could slide in there and play the role as well because he is able to play and I hate to use these terms glibly but a kind of socio he's a character that seems to have a very screwed up emotional life right but captures a bit of humanity a bit of fragility my favorite parts in the movie are one that I don't know but also I struggle so much with the ethics of movies like this where yeah you're like it's so compelling but like if that's mark to be like we should empathize with your Zuckerberg who's like unquestionably a villain but then the version of Mark Zuckerberg they're presenting here isn't actually really based on much fact because he's just a pouring man yeah and if anyone needs to see Zuckerberg at his finest to look at his Senate testimony it's great I actually am not aware of a subpoena I believe that there may be well so to talk about Zuckerberg then yeah I do think this movie is a really good bad guy origin story and often like bad guy origin stories or some crazy person falling in some toxic sludge or having their family murdered in front of them in this case it's that Erica Albright didn't want to be his college girlfriend anymore and that was the inciting incident lead evil Zuckerberg down this digital rabbit hole you don't have to study you don't have to study just talk I can't why because it is exhausting heating it was like dating a Stairmaster that as a plot point works really really really and I love the Eric all great character I love her so much she rules I think there's a reason to that like we talked about Rooney Mara is role in this film a lot she's in it for like three minutes and she crushes I mean her main scene in the films before we get the TV see you're just like ah I love that character yeah when she's kind of there every step of the way she's the inciting incident from art she then is happens to be at the restaurant and then the final scene is him just clicking refresh over and over he sees if she will be his digital friends so her ghost sort of haunts him throughout the film what else do you think is good or what else stands out to you about this film in a positive way um I I do like how it kind of set up a whole generation of like an understanding or a basic understanding of Silicon Valley culture and like the how like loose it is with money and how like entitled a lot of people inside of it are and how it can like really result in bad things yeah I mean in this movie you kind of just see bad things happen to people who end up being billionaires anyways yeah I do think it's a good basic representation of Silicon Valley culture and like maybe because in 2010 especially I think people were still kind of like drinking the kool-aid of like this is a revolution this is no this is definitely not chaotic capitalism and this was maybe one of the first pieces of popular media that was like no it's not I mean it's there may be a little overly empathetic to Mark Zuckerberg right but it's a haunting to watch now because this movie the things that happened economically and fiscally with this company seem like weird aberrations but that is how money works now yeah it's literally showing how our economic structures were forged in this world by a bunch of nerd bros and notice respect to those nerd but well to those nerds aspect but to less respect to most of the scenarios that's another thing this movie gets at this cultural shift when nerds became cool when we stopped when people that were able to do cool computers were the ones were able to make a lot of money right and go to cool clubs and all that stuff well before we get to the bat anything else that you want to hit in terms of what you think is good the script is amazing I do like the the way that most of the relationships in the movie are written of like seeing like I mean you don't get to see tension and male friendships yeah this a lot I think that that was kind of cool and to see like these two like Eduardo and Mark not being able to like just be like you hurt my feelings they have $2.00 you know like sure I think that that was like a really interesting element of it yeah I mean I just I like I like the damn movie the damn movie the final thing I'll say in terms of good is traits as decade-old yep it holds up really well and like you just got a Trent Reznor and Atticus Finch Atticus Finch Atticus Ross that's one of them is a character from a book yeah we wrapped up the good now let's talk about the bad the things that don't work as well in this movie both internal to the movie and its cultural impact so what's something do you think is bad about this movie I okay so I'm just gonna start with basically the last line of the movie delivered by the wonderful rashida Jones who is I think done a little dirty in this movie the line being work you're just trying so hard to be no matter how historically accurate this whole movie has been there's you know ten years on you're like no Mark Zuckerberg is and this whole to put it lightly we have very little evidence to the contrary there I mean he's just you know chaotic neutral whatever yeah but but I especially hate that that line is delivered by a female character we barely know and I especially hate that it's the last line because then you sort of get the feeling that this is how Sorkin and to feel at the end of life well ultimately isn't he just a sad dork and it's like no he knows like I don't we have Erica Albright in the first scene say that he's Justin full yes okay yeah and then which is I like I mean that scene is so great yeah and then at the end it's almost like this character that is way more sympathetic towards mark is like she was wrong you're not an [ __ ] just like you know be a little more nice you know like yeah I didn't like that and and a lot of the way that women are presented in this movie i think is pretty bad yeah i was trying to keep track of how women are and i hate to use this terminology like used in the film well i mean there's no other way to do it i think that the trope that comes up a lot is like the the [ __ ] obstacle trope where women do not necessarily do much but they just get in the way of the male characters doing things so Erica Albright is in the way of Mark like acts you know like it is bringing up things that are insecure about himself so the whole movie becomes a revenge plot against her Brenda signs character Christy especially like it is an obstacle that's in the way of Eduardo like like she's distracting him from face and starting fires on his bed out of nowhere that character I mean for that first you're like oh my god London tempted Wendy whoo I'm so happy she's here I love Brenda's song they're presented in as groupies at the beginning there's another character named Alice who sucks Mark Zuckerberg off in a bathroom yeah they do the bathroom thing they're both there at the same time and it's just like Bros getting sucked off by groupies in every bathroom so the Christie character she's like she's proven it is a groupie that sucks yeah but then she kind of gets involved in the plot in that she's there sometimes you're like okay Christine what do you like to drink an appletini great for those and she's we're not being mad but then well she's not mad at first like the way that that character causes she's she's there she's like supportive she's whatever sorkin quipping she gets mad very suddenly there's no plot justification we are not led to believe that she's a jealous character in any of her previous scenes and then in her last scene she shows up all of a sudden she's like she's lost it she's like going like she's losing it because she's so jealous this is not something we knew about her character because we know nothing about her character well it seems like it's another way they have to try to make Eduardo seem like a victim or a good guy or someone who's trying his best but I agree with everything you're saying and it's something that in terms of like the movie aging well as a movie it's aged really well story's age well it's so hard to not see that in 2020 so what do you think about and maybe this is something you don't think is bad I'm not sure if I think it's good or bad okay the very last scene ask Rashida on a date she says no she then says you're not really whole you're just trying to be and then we see him just like requesting the Ericka thing I'm of two minds about that I'm curious what you think about that as the final moment of the film ultimately I don't think I like I think like script wise and like narrative wise it makes a lot of sense and I like the first time I saw it and I think like for years I was like you know like it's a really effective like writing job but in terms of takeaway I don't know because I think it is true that Facebook started with Mark Zuckerberg comparing women to farm animals Billy Olsen sitting here and had the idea of putting some of the pictures next to pictures of farm animals and have people vote on who's hotter good call mr. Olsen then you end up being like oh he's so alone in the world isn't that sad and pathetic because now we know like he's first of all fine and I just I just don't I guess in 2020 it leaves a worst taste in my mouth to be asked to empathize with yeah I know there's like different ways to read the ending I I think to be critical of myself I'm sure the first time I saw that movie in theaters I read that last scene it's like I get it just just a dude that's like been been done dirty now when I watch that I'm just like oh yeah you're just kind of sad bastard and you deserve this and I hope that Erica she looks like she's having a great time in her picture and she's a lot of activity on her feet so we see that hope she's thriving hope everything's great she's not real I'm from my space I wish my space would have come up more and that Tom could have been an enemy in the film why was in Tom in the movie and that alternate read that's really like that makes a lot of sense and I for sure I mean I was like all in the first time I saw this movie I was like yeah it's tragic and and that was back when like Facebook was still cool they hadn't we didn't know they were giving our data away then we said we know so much more now Cambridge analytic aguy slick it up hmm yeah I also I don't hate it but the Timberlake thing another thing and when I first saw it I couldn't reside which category I'd like it's kind of good and bad yeah I think it's both it's fun that he's there he's kind of a hand he still has the like late stage NSYNC early solo Justin hair yeah and a blonde curls yes I was like oh we were still there in 2010 interesting yeah cuz at that point and I should have done the research here hadn't done a lot of acting I don't think you did a lot of serious acting yeah but he'd been in in stuff but I think this was like his first like oh Justin Timberlake is prestige now oh yeah it's definitely feels like stunt casting to a certain extent and a movie that's otherwise seems very carefully cast but it does work like I was it's Justin Timberlake is like I mean we he's been really bad in some ways but but in this movie yeah it makes me think there's a lyric in one of his songs I forget which one I know I wrote them oh he says something like he says girl it might sound cocky but is it really cocky if you know that it's true and I feel like he embodied that in this Sean Parker character he's this guy that's like so cocky and confident but he's like hey I'm right I ruined the music industry and now I do cocaine off underage people's bellies and get in trouble for it and the last bad thing yes is Josh pence erasure yes please please explain this to our audience this is only I I just learned as well so tell us who John Josh Pence is and why he was erased I'm glad I could educate you on an army hammer related matters today so Armie Hammer famously plays both Winkies Cameron Winklevoss and this is my brother time but and everyone's like oh he must have like done like a Lindsay Lohan Parent Trap thing he did not there is a second man who is armie hammer sized in this movie named Josh pan so he's still a working actor he played I don't know who was who but like it was original gonna be too similar looking actors immense I don't know who made this call but David Fincher's like no we're actually going to deep fake like it was an early deep thing deep faked army hammers face onto this other actor we thought he was gonna be in this huge movie and he is from the neck down but he's not it's I'm like I want his I want I couldn't find his take on it it was very classy about it this is I'm so lied to bringing this up because in rewatching it especially in one of the rowing scenes it looks weird because I was thinking how did they shoot this and that was the scene in particular it one of the first rowing scenes where they're still in Cambridge and you definitely notice it that's a bit hey what do you know it's a deep fake and it's when they're moving too fast the deep fakes get a little like iffy but so we can blame this movie with starting the trends of the deep fakes that will now unravel our society from the inside Spectre showed me how to manipulate you into sharing intimate data about yourself and all those you love for free the more you express yourself the more we own you okay so we've talked about what is good about the social network we've got into some of the bad before we get to the brilliant let's have a little bit of fun and do our lightning round we're gonna ask each other questions that are related to kind of related to we're not really related to the film okay so you could save one Winklevoss from the jaws of death which Winklevoss would it be and why okay I think it's Cameron okay and I'm not sure I'm getting the name right because you all look the same oh but I think he is that the one who says we are gentlemen of Harvard let's say yes yes I'm awesome I love that he's he doesn't want to sue anyone or doing bad because they are gentlemen of Harvard right and he wants to go down with honor the other ones the more rascally Winklevoss I like the rascal it's like let's be straight it's nepotism what we're doing and we want it and we want it now what social media platform has ruined your life the most Wow uh-hmm it's I mean I feel like it's a tie between Twitter and Instagram for sure okay they hurt me in different ways you know like Twitter is like you know you get more kind of personal attacks there has to do with who you are and then Instagram people are like hey why don't you like wax more and I'm like I'm trying to I'm trying to you know women with mustaches vote over there and but you're hurting my feelings Wow so you know so Facebook off the hook on this one that's well Zuckerberg owns Instagram so so he's fingers and everything yeah I mean Facebook is like I don't think about it anymore well now we're having fun what's your next question my favorite actor is Alfred Molina if you would in this movie who would he play oh I think Alfred Molina would do really well I'd like to see him as I'm Zuckerberg lawyer oh yeah I feel so bad I forget the name of that actor the name of the character but the one who works with rashida Jones yes and then if that happens I would like to see an after credit sequence Oh Molina and Jones that sets up a sequel that follows their story he's a chameleon yes just a chameleon I gotta shout it out at every opportunity that's a great answer we'll Mark Zuckerberg ever be President of the United States no will he run to be present really hope this ages well I don't know I feel like one of the things I will hand to Mark Zuckerberg is he seems to recognize his own lack of charisma he seems to be fairly aware of that and so I would hope optimistically that he knows he's not charismatic enough to win over enough people to become the president hear that mark it's not going to happen for you don't try which line in the movie do you think Aaron Sorkin jerked off to himself the hardest after he wrote it this is hard cuz I want to say it's my favorite line six five to 20 and there's two of me I don't think that's only jerked off - I think he jerked off - and this is so boring what's better than a million dollars a billion dollars you agree and I think Sorkin went like yes and that's a night and that's the night he's stomping around his mansion his wife's cowering you know like these kids is home from college Oh dad did a masturbatory line again right and then they're like well I guess it's like paying for our college so we can't say I would if I didn't have student loan debt cuz my dad wrote masturbatory lines that made enough money - I paid for my college get it dad I don't know I feel like I would resent Aaron Sorkin so much if he were my dad yeah well if you are a child and Aaron Sorkin in the common okay well I think that's it for our lightning round thank you so much for participating and I'm glad that we got to bring your man Molina cool okay so we've done our lightning round and obviously talked about what's good and what's bad so now we're gonna get into the big ideas of this movie if there are any so let's talk about what's brilliant Jamie you can go first what is brilliance about the social network for me what holds up a hundred percent is the opening scene I love the opening scene in like every way yeah I think it's like so well-written Rudy Mara and Jesse Eisenberg the way that they play off of each other it almost feels like you're kind of watching a play but Fincher makes it feel enough like it is a movie and I just yeah I just like it's still like I will drop everything and watch that scene any any time yeah and you say it's like watching a play I think is one of those instances where the fact that Sorkin started out as a playwright is used very effectively dating okay I'm gonna try and be straightforward and even let you know that we're not what do you I'm not getting anymore this is a joke no it's not you're breaking up with me are gonna introduce me to people I wouldn't normally have the chance to meet what the [ __ ] what is that supposed to mean settle down what is it supposed to Mira go the reason were able to sit here and drink right now is cuz he used to sleep with the door guy something that I think is brilliant and this is maybe me giving more credit to the film than it deserves but the film at least captures this moment that's the beginning of this era of this like ruthless techno capitalism that's now taking over our entire economy right and you see them you know they literally go meet with Peter Thiel in the movie no no to be a blood guzzling monster just a bad guy another one literal vampire if anyone does it just Google Peter Thiel but it really it comes up in this movie in this way that seems kind of unique and new and we have crazy Sean Parker and these crazy business guys evaluating this company that doesn't produce or make anything of value right as were things and it seems absurd if you have a sort of old-school economic mindset but this movie shows the start of a culture that now is our culture yeah and it's I mean III want to give it the credit it deserves in like I don't think that you know the people involved with this movie has that much more information about how bad things were gonna get when they made it the fact that there are those kind of ominous tones there at all is kind of I mean it is pretty impressive it holds up over sure and I think even the way in which you know they struggle in the film to figure out our good friend Eduardo struggles to figure out how we're gonna make money off of this I mean who would have known that data harvesting would be the primary way that they would make money and who could have predicted that our economy was going in such a way where the internet would largely be a space where people produce free content to be consumed to gather data on consumers to accurately and insidiously sell them that's targeted just at then like when this movie came out we weren't getting ads on Facebook that was something that we had dreamt about ten minutes ago know that the algorithm is intuitively predicted about our unconscious right and I think this movie gets at the seeds of that and shows us where things are going sorry it got too real what else do you think is brilliant or potentially brilliant the others seen in this movie I think is brilliant is the rowing montage and like that secret it's like it's so good [Music] and then you're like oh yeah the editing of this movie also rules like it's just it's really good I mean from a filmmaking perspective I would struggle to say that anything is bad it's still really good and it's almost annoying well it's something else and maybe this is me like reading too much into it but that struck me about the film when this movie first came out I don't think what I'll call a digital alienation was as much of an issue and by that I mean a world in which a majority or at least a good amount of our social relationships are mediated via social media or technology and I do think the final scene we talked about before which might be good might be bad something is interesting about that is this idea that this Punk trader billionaire whatever guy president no friends in real life yes alienated everyone yet runs a digital network whose entire goal is the connectivity of humans at friendship he longs for a friend and even in that last scene he wants to have lunch with the rashida Jones character because no one wants to hang out with him he wants to reconnect with Erica Albright because he realizes he's fractured every relationship and pushed away yeah anyone valuable in his life and I think the movie that was him then and that can be all of us to various extents now for sure I mean I think maybe like think back to at that time like I think maybe it had started to exist but there was no name for it yet and there is no like like if you felt that way you kind of felt weird about yourself where yeah back in 2010 I was still like searching my own name on Facebook and adding everyone with my same name is like oh let's like there's a Jamie Loftus in Britain that's cool you know I was in a group that was we are Michael burns for a while and there are thousands of us like I forgot I was in it quite recently I got a notification that was like 18 people have left we are Michael burns Wow yeah well I get a message from Jamie Loftus from England every once in a while he was like proudiy but that's really great I mean is it worth Facebook though you know like know it that is that is interesting that it kind of like you know foreshadowed that I guess the fact that the first version or the first website he made like his version of hot-or-not or compare women like farm animals yeah I mean that's like how we date now yeah I mean I don't date like that in case you're watching this I don't do yeah okay no one's dating like that but but like that is like tinder I mean like what events like oh look at you people judge on the basis of their face and make a decision right now was kind of an offensive Harvard website that shut down the network but now that's one of the primary ways that people evaluate potential romantic partners I do also think it's like brilliant slash maybe brilliant adjacent how this movie really kind of takes like a nerd narrative in a way that I think you know in the 80s was very like unchallenging of like nerd entitlement was really just like fulfilled at every turn and it this movie I feel like at least presents it presents it with empathy but also challenges it of like just because you feel entitled to something doesn't mean that you deserve it and it doesn't mean that you're going to get it yeah I think that that is kind of in a in a narrative where a misfit is the protagonist to see them like succeed and not succeed is usually more than more nuanced than you'd normally get yeah I mean to go back to that first scene that you talked about is being so brilliant one of the ideas we get there is like nerds can be at poles - yeah on the nerdy guy can be just as the stereotypical jock or whatever and if you look at films from the 80s and 90s especially they're like nerdy alienated guy is always ascribed a level of virtue yes even when they're date-raping people and they're nosy Oh shouts - Revenge of the Nerds don't rewatch it yeah but like I mean I do like that it kind of subverts that without being like nerds are bad evil like that's not the truth either but like presents yeah some level of nuance and kind of lets the audience make of it what they will like yeah most movies weren't doing that then yeah that's cool Wow another section where we have to admit whether we like it or not how good this movie is it's really good okay well the last thing we have to do now is rate it we both know we think it's we have to have some formal structure to rate this film yes so as you might know the title of the show is the good the bad in the Brillion yeah as whole yes let's talk about it is the social network good bad or brilliant it's so good it's so good I can't I just feel like with the brenda song character i cannot say that it's brilliant but he's it's like so close to it yeah if they had just gotten a new if they just heard a woman somewhere you know could be brilliant i it's so good to be it's so close to being perfect I'm gonna just copy you here I would say like it's it's knocking on brilliants door this movie is so good alright ding-dong reread friends songs Carrie okay we'll be watching those just deep fake that too yes yeah i all say this movie is very very very good high is good i can think of not quite brilliant yeah but but like almost as close as you could get yes i want to call brilliant so bad but I just would feel well I appreciate the restraint and I relate to it this is a hard one to change but thank you so much for being here Jamie if people are watching this and they think they need more Jamie Loftus content in their lives where can they find that you can find me on Twitter at Jamie Loftus help on Instagram at Jamie Co superstar and then I have a feminist movie podcast called the Bechtel cast that I Coast with Caitlyn durante that comes out every Thursday and now before we finished we're trying a new thing we're giving some recommendations on if people like this movie if they like these ideas what could they check out I'm gonna give one and that is this book called uncanny valley by an author named Anna Weiner it's a book in which the author talks about her experience working in some of these Silicon Valley tech companies and it gives you a real inside view into how messed up and kind of dystopian some of these places are as a scary read I'm going to read it in quarantine like it's a good quarantine read but I cannot wait for the quarantine requires reading yes well because quarantine might last forever what do you think we should check out during this time I think everyone should check out the age of surveillance capitalism by Shoshanna Zubov it a very good book I I read it when I was researching for a Silicon Valley thing I wrote and it basically is it was published last year so it's pretty up to date in terms of like why our nest cams how exactly is your data taken from you in what ways and and how is it used to turn a profit this is among many smart people I know including yourself have recommended this so I know I need to read it hopefully others will as well quarantine read it now we're done with that we're done with everything so Josh we're just everything's clean of this so Jimmy thank you so much for being here thanks for having me yeah this has been the good the bad and the brilliant thank you so much for watching and please do let us know in the comments if there's other properties you would love to see us talk about in the future but that's all for now later [Music]

Channel: Wisecrack

Views: 139,862

Keywords: the social network, aaron sorkin, david fincher, mark zuckerberg, jesse eisenberg, facebook, facebook story, rashida jones, eduardo saverin, winklevoss, armie hammer, justin timberlake, sean parker, myspace, napster, how facebook started, biopic, true story, andrew garfield, tech start up, social media, silicone valley, video essay, podcast, Wisecasts, Film analysis, philosophy, Show Me the Meaning, Wisecrack Edition, What Went Wrong, Wisecrack, social network analysis

Id: L4j6XjsdDIQ

Length: 32min 2sec (1922 seconds)

Published: Fri Mar 20 2020