The Roots of Body Dysmorphia | Dr. K Interviews

so tell me a little bit what am i how would you like me to refer to you by the way uh Ingrid is fine Ingrid mine okay Ingrid yeah Ingrid thank you very much for coming on today can you tell me a little bit about what we're talking about yeah thank you for having me um so body dysmorphia um just general strong anxiety about appearance okay yeah that's it is okay sure so can you help us understand what you mean by body dysmorphia um so but it is more yeah I know there's like different kinds of it like transsexual people have one kind of it I don't have that kind my kind is that I am I see my body my whole appearance as a lot worse than it actually is okay and so like the definition is something like overly focused on a flaw in the physical appearance that isn't necessarily there or is so insignificant that no one else can see it okay and you're like you're so focused on it that it takes up so much time of your life and gives you so much stress okay and do you have a particular feature in your body that you spend a lot of your time thinking about basically all of it okay I I just I I am there's not like one feature that's like I wish I could change that it's it's it's basically like I can't have a objective view of my body it's like I don't know I explain it it's I see my voice cute like distorted sure wait how do they know that what you see is distorted and I I don't think it's distorted okay so people told me professionals I'm talking doc told me so I guess it is I mean it doesn't seem like thinking that your view is of your body as a distorted does you much good no that's a problem okay so I'm gonna start from kind of a weird place okay let's just assume for a moment that you're right instead of wrong so just my experience being a mental health professional comes I've come to appreciate that even though sometimes our mind can think wrong things so let's think about something like suicide like if someone wants to kill themselves I find that the most effective way to help that person is to not assume that they're wrong and like that life is worth living it's to actually recognize for that person in that moment life is not worth living does that make sense yeah and and the cool thing is that it paradoxically like you may think that you know telling to sua slike talking to a suicidal person about why their life isn't worth living is like the wrong thing to do because then like oh my god what if they kill themselves it's absolutely a possibility but strangely enough I think telling people things that are contrary to what they believe like doesn't help what are you thinking about that I agree with that it's like it doesn't help when people tell me oh no you are pretty or you look normal it's like thanks but doesn't change anything okay yeah so that's not what I want to hear what do you want to hear I don't know it's you I don't know what I want to hear okay so what I kind of I guess I kind of like it would always be nice if someone just told me straight to my face that I look terrible what is it another hassle yeah then I don't have to worry about it okay so Ingrid right yeah Ingrid I'm so glad you came on today can I just share some random thoughts so I feel optimistic and I'm grateful to you I feel optimistic because I don't know why I just do I can't make sense of it it sounds like you've seen professionals before and it hasn't really helped much so I think every every logical thought in my mind is that I'm not going to be able to help you and yet I feel optimistic today and I'm grateful to you because I think this is something that is not talked about and not understood and I think it's incredibly courageous for you to come in you know and like let's just think about what you're doing in to what degree you're courageous because you're someone who has body dysmorphia you think you look terrible and we're actually doing a video chat I I actually wanted to not be on camera I can imagine so when I first got a message but I didn't really want to say no because like you have everyone on cameras yeah but why the [ __ ] wouldn't you why why are you on camera like what's up with that don't you is it that awful for you kind of like I was literally shaking before like the 20 minutes of delay I was just sitting oh I'm so sorry but I was gonna say I just I don't know it doesn't really matter because I I never have to talk to you again or like no one in chat so it's good yeah doesn't really matter and also I wanted to just try yes yes good for you and I think it's it's really important I know this is gonna sound bizarre but it doesn't really matter is I think a wonderful way to live your life I think so much of the torture that we give ourselves is because we think Matt things matter we're like oh my god if I go to this party and people don't like me then like oh my god it's gonna be the end of the world no it doesn't matter hmm and and I think that you've actually taken a huge step forward by acknowledging that you don't have to let your perceptions of your body or your what you really believe like I say perception applies it's not real you don't have to let being ugly get in the way of what you do mmm and that's what we got that in and of itself is like amazing right let's forget for a moment about whether you are ugly but I'm just gonna step into your shoes and that's pretty cool what do you think about that I'm proud of myself like damn straight I am I would never carry on I don't know I don't like being on camera at all sure and like right now you have 2,000 people watching this so let's make things boring so that it drops down to a thousand yeah yeah so it how does it feel to be on camera and on stream you said you were nervous for the 20 minutes before but how about now it's fine now yes I don't know but I'm I'm just actually seeing you now I haven't read the chaps so it's that you should stay away from chatez don't really get that but why do you so let's just try to so Ingrid there are two things that I'd like to talk to you about today one is to help us understand a little bit about where and how these feelings and perceptions come from and the second is to forget about all that stuff and just focus on like why is it that the thought of being on camera and actually being on camera is like two different things right why isn't the thought of coming on stream actually more terrifying than actually being on scene because that's weird yeah that's right and if we can understand that and we can understand how the body dysmorphia occupies your mind and shapes your mind maybe we can get some power over it not by addressing it directly not by telling you that you're a beautiful person because that's like that's like the content of your mind if that makes sense but what I'm talking about is the process of your mind so how is your mind like how does it come up with anxieties and then when you actually do the thing it's like easier than thinking about doing the thing yeah because I can imagine that your your perceptions of how you look keep you from doing things yeah and I can imagine that if they keep you from doing things that may make life harder from you not just because you feel a certain way about yourself but then because then you're not doing those things that make sense so yeah in a weird way we may be able to help you out by like not even talking about the body of morphia but just teaching you how to not necessarily ignore it but like how you can sort of outmaneuver it maybe it's a better way to put it hmm is that sound okay yeah okay definitely so let's start with if it's okay with you we'll start with like where these thoughts come from and what you think about yourself is that okay well I don't I don't know it comes from actually it's like it's just kind of like something that's manifested itself in my mind as true sure of course um I'm not really like trying to tell myself anything else yep so I spent a lot of time just looking at myself in there's or hmm how much time depends on the day sometimes hours like in front of mirror or photos like I think that you're so myself for hours maybe I'm like watching TV or something and I just take pictures but I delete them all afterwards and it's like what are you looking for when you take a picture mm-hmm I always try to take nice pictures so pictures were like like good angles good lighting and such apps I guess I'm just like looking for a picture outlook Nisan do you ever find one I do that's the weird thing like I find a lot actually really but the thing is like I just tell myself like that that's not how I look like because this is a photo I see interesting I'm just telling myself that like because you know how much can be like influenced by lighting and angles such yeah I'm just telling myself like like it's not what I look like because it's a photo sure so so it's kind of strange right so like there's it sounds like you actually take good pictures of yourself and and you're happy with the way that you look sometimes right maybe for like one second when I look at the photo right and keep in mind I'm like I'm taking maybe like five hundred pictures for myself maybe four of them yeah so okay so what I'm what I'm hearing you say is that you have a couple of pictures that look okay and when I repeat that back to you you respond with yeah but that's like four out of five hundred so it's like you see what you're doing is you're kind of invalidating what your observations are you're arguing against the idea that you're actually capable of looking normal or attractive in a photo yeah do you see how your mind does that yeah so you said hmm sorry go ahead it'll so like even those four pictures I do find it's an hour later I don't think I look nice anymore okay fine right so let's think about that right so you say that for a second you're like oh that's a decent photo and then what happens in your mind when I see a decent photo yeah it wakes up and says what like that split second is like oh maybe my nose look okay there but then I'll just start thinking no that's because the lighting hits oh well something like that I'm just trying to tell myself that it's not not what I look like because it's yeah so that's kind of so I just want you to notice that sometimes your mind is able to appreciate a picture of you and anytime you start to appreciate a picture of you this other part of your mind wakes up and activates and it says no no no no no no no no Ingrid no no no it's just the lighting you're not attractive it's just you tricked you tricked people into thinking that photo was decent it's all trickery it's not the real you the real you is what ingrate how do you feel about yourself what do you think you look like I just feel I just look I don't know abortion okay I feel like I don't have like a specific picture in my head of what I look like it's just I have I feel I am my proportions are unnatural like almost as if I had a disease that's what I think about everything and everything meaning yourself what are my appearance your nerves okay that you're just out of proportion yes I I feel like I look like a goblin resulting like some creature from Lord of the Rings or sure like a caricature like it's not like normal looking yeah yeah yeah like you have all the pieces that a normal human has but you don't look like a normal human is that how you mmm how long have you is it okay if I ask you a few questions about that yeah okay and by the way you know just a disclaimer that you can choose not to answer anything hmm also you can tell me to go [ __ ] myself at any point okay so can I rely on you to exercise both of those options if you feel that like they're appropriate okay awesome yes all right so how long have you been feeling like you were out of proportion um since high school I'm 20 now so three years ago no one else three or six years six years ago okay yeah but it's been kind of up and down but it's been a lot the last two years can you tell me a little bit about high school I always loved school so the actual like classes in such work I don't know I loved learning and just reading stuff that's rare I I miss high school for the learning I didn't really have so before high school I had two best friends and they all they went to another high school me so I didn't really have any friends when I started there I didn't know anyone and I didn't really get to know anyone in those three years um so it kind of just I kind of just woke up went to school did school which was super fun and went home and did my thing and I was fine with that I didn't really feel the need to have friends there did you feel lonely sometimes but usually not do what what kinds of thoughts did you have about your appearance in high school it wasn't as badass as now it was I always thought that it didn't look feminine at all I always thought and I still do that I look like totally oh boy or something and I know I didn't look like a girl okay and it didn't help that everyone in my class had kind of this joke too that everyone thought I was a lesbian which I'm not like but they're not that there's anything wrong with being a lesbian but the reason they thought I was a lesbian was because first of all I was into like more boy stuff sure but and second gaming right off yeah and poor games like fantasy the Indians such I like football yeah more boy stuff so I I never really felt like I felt like a woman but I didn't feel feminine you know sure and I didn't really feel the need to defend millions but now I do but I can't do you feel like you kind of missed the boat on that yeah like you could have if you had been if you had acted differently or behaved differently maybe you would be more feminine than you are today yeah like I say this my my two friends from before my school I'm still friends with them today like my whole life I've known one of them my whole life and my whole life I've always been very boyish you know sure and I am I was fine with that I kind of liked it because I was like I always got to play with play football with the guys and such and yeah so I feel like now I can't go in the feminine cuz everyone I know including my best friends as always it was always like they we always had inside jokes about how I can't wear a dress they would always say it they would hurt a little bit but I wouldn't really care but now I care there's all the inside jokes about how I cannot be feminine because that's not me and how weird that would be if I did anything feminine hmm can I think for a second yeah I'm gonna need a few seconds okay like maybe like a minute so of course I'm trying to think there was something in my head that's very helpful I'm just not quite sure how okay so what I don't I don't know how it relates to the dysmorphia but I this yeah so maybe it doesn't maybe it doesn't but what I'm hearing you say is that essentially you're not really you haven't been allowed to be feminine I don't feel like it right and it starts like it's not started pretty early where you started to conceptualize yourself as like more masculine and then I guess like when I was 40 and I felt it was kind of cool if I was a tomboy or something sure cuz every other girl I knew in my class was very feminine yeah so I got to hang play football with the guys and such in that that used to be kind of cool but what I'm hearing you kind of it's almost like at some point other people haven't allowed you to be feminine or haven't encouraged you to be feminine at some point you stopped allowing yourself to be found on oh yeah so I noticed you're wearing a t-shirt yeah do you wear more like t-shirts like you wear dresses or more traditionally feminine clothing I own a lot of it but I don't wear it yeah so let's think what happens when you try to put it on or you think about [ __ ] putting it off I just on I just can't I just I can't wear it yeah what happened I just can't it's put it on and it's can you put it on or you can't even put it on I'm not talking about in public I'm talking about like can you even try a dress on and in the privacy of your own home or a room we can um but not the law how do you feel when you put it on I feel stupid like I say to myself like almost like how dare you believe you can actually wear this absolutely yeah right so the funny thing here is I I don't even know and just so that that sounds like that kind of relates to the body dysmorphia to me what do you think yeah I guess it does I mean I understand that body dysmorphia has a particular representation in your mind but I find it hard to believe that having a particular view of how you look and being unable to wear a dress like I find it hard to believe that those are fully independent so you know it's it they're probably connected yeah yeah and and I can understand why it's hard to connect them because the way that those thoughts look and feel are like very different right if you look in a mirror and you say I'm disproportional or my from Martians aren't correct and you put on a dress and you you say how dare you like those feel like different thoughts but I think there's something about it's so hard it's like right on the edge of my understanding it's like at some point you didn't no one allowed you to be feminine and then you didn't allow yourself to be feminine and then instead of not allowing it it became true does that make sense like something shifted I'm getting the sense of a shift where you used to be like how dare you and now you're like I can't does that make sense like it became like a fact instead of like a choice feel like it would mean I would be comfortable with wearing maybe a men's jacket the nurse yeah that makes a lot of sense and I know it's like it's pretty normal for girls to wear male t-shirts and such so I don't know maybe doesn't count but I would feel more comfortable wearing men's yeah so you know oddly enough I'm not getting any sense of gender identity confusion from you no right right I am yeah so that I'm pretty clear on that I also don't get the sense that you're actually a transvestite if that makes do you know what a transvestite is yeah yeah so just the way that I remember it is transvestites or someone of a particular gender who wears another genders clothing but it doesn't mean that they think that they are like so that I then the world citizen huh yeah it's cross-dressing so it's not actually like you know a man who wears women's clothing is not doesn't think that they're a woman and they're not homosexual has nothing to do with like sexuality or gender identity it's just I you know the trick that I use to remember or when I was learning this stuff is you know transvestite has the word vest in it and so it's about clothing it's about what you wear on the outside it's about nothing about who you are on the inside but I'm not getting the sense that you're a transvestite either I think no yeah I like to put it another way it's like I want to I want to wear female feminine clothes that I can't so I wear I don't really wear men's clothes I don't but I would be more comfortable wearing it but not because I want to write you know because it's it's uncomfortable for you to wear I don't I don't want to wear men's clothes but I would rather wear men's clothes no okay I think yeah yeah oh god sorry please III so I rather where I I wear clothes maids for women but like not particularly feminine of course like this t-shirt yeah it's the questions how to help you do you want help yeah what do you want to help [Music] I don't know it's it's just too I wish there was like some way I could just realize that like I don't even need to feel pretty I just need to feel normal you know so I don't know actually cuz like I don't know and if you realize that what would change about your mind what would change about the person that you are well I definitely wouldn't spend as much time worrying about it worrying about what about how I look like if I could just settle with I'm normal true then I probably wouldn't spend as much time thinking pictures and looking in there yeah it's it's kind of sad actually to think that you would be happy with just being normal you know yes I mean I feel sad when I hear you say that I I remember even feelings to some degree that way myself not so much about appearance but that I was less than human in a lot of ways and I didn't want to be exceptional or the best I just wanted to be normal yeah I don't I don't need to be I don't need to like feel like I'm gorgeous but how do you want this a normal one I just want to feel not terrible like not like a goblin hmm and when did you start to feel like a goblin I haven't actually thought about it that way before but uh that's what we're here for think about things but um I guess the last year has been very like yes peached okay yeah so we're not talking about the peak right so you said you played D&D yeah a little bit more okay yeah you like fantasy stuff yeah like do you remember you know looking at something from the fantasy genre whether it be a video game or book or movie or whatever and like looking at a picture of like a monster or goblin and thinking like oh that's what I look like that's me well clearly no it's never wouldn't I'm actually looked at them I've never related to it but it's more like in my mind sure okay and what about when so you said high school is when you started you didn't have many friends in high school I had I I was neutral everyone so no I didn't really have friends I didn't have anyone any outfit and how did you feel about that it was actually it's okay actually because I still had my two best friends in the other school that I saw in my spare time sometimes and are your best friend's girls or boys girls and are you still close with them yeah not so much one of them but missing Newt but the other one I'm still close with hmm can you tell me a little bit about your parents and what growing up was like I hadn't I probably had the ideal childhood so parents are there they've stayed together are we're we never struggled with money my parents has always been supportive they've always kind of kind of their whole idea of how to raise children is just let them figure things out and it'll be okay you know so like they didn't let me do dangerous stuff but they left me kind of lets me take risks they let me do whatever what I wanted and felt like and if that went bad to learn the consequences you know mm-hmm some would say that's not ideal but I would say it's pretty good because the the their their philosophy philosophy was that as long as you're honest we won't be mad and as long as as long as you ask you if you do something wrong or bad as long as you take responsibility it's fine what with limit limitations of course so it sounds like you you you're very grateful for the childhood you've had I am everything was fine is your mom feminine yeah she's not super feminine but she wears dresses and she doesn't wear makeup she's she has like a very feminine personality and she dresses feminine but she's also very how do I say this she has characteristics of more like a masculine like she's handy and mm-hmm yeah so it sounds like you had a pretty you know like a role model in your life in terms of your mom that was a little bit more on the masculine side yeah same with my sister she has always been very feminine has has always been very feminine yes older or younger older three years old do you remember what it was like if you had thoughts about when you were in high school so when you were 14 and she was 17 do you remember thinking about the difference between you and her but not in a negative way yeah just that we were different very different she was very like she wore makeup she wore feminine things she explored a lot with fashion and just ways of expressing herself through clothes and makeup and such she liked more feminine things when she was 15 she loves Twilight yeah all that stuff how do you feel about Twilight I don't like it but I feel like Who am I to say it's bad because I'm not the target audience it's it's good for 12 year olds I guess so I work you don't like Twilight that just means you have good taste I guess I don't like it but I I can see how a fourteen-year-old girl would like it I can't even see how a 14 year old girl would like it long but and and so what I'm hearing you say Ingrid is that you know when you were in early high school he started I mean you've known that you aren't very feminine but it really wasn't a problem for you when did it start to become a problem I guess when when most people around me started when people like when people you know just reach a certain point where there's suddenly a difference between boys and girls like there's not much different difference when you're eight years old you know but I'll explain it when when all the girls in my class we weren't a lot of girls in my class but when all the girls in my class suddenly were so focused on all the feminine hmm and the guys were more masculine it's like I had all the same interests as as guys in my class but I kind of wanted to hang out with the girls you know but you kind of didn't know how to yeah I remember there was I was invited to a birthday party once in a girl in my class I think the reason she invited me like she didn't want to be mean or anything but we didn't really know each other the like we were only seven girls in my class and she was inviting everyone else so she invited me too and I remember just sitting there and did not know what to do or talk about because I couldn't relate to anything I did not know how to join the conversation how did you feel last year I felt awkward I wanted to leave because it was boring boring yeah I said I I didn't really care about anything they were talking about and everything they were talking about kind of seeing that I don't know the word in English like what's the working language over flawless which is they only talk to things that don't matter and I'm not saying you have to talk about important stuff all the time like you can obviously talk [ __ ] and small [ __ ] stuff they talked about things that are like so insignificant that I don't even know what to add yeah there's there's nothing for me to grab you know do I think for another second I Ingrid I'm sensing a lot of tension between judging something and wanting that thing like I can almost sense like in your mind like a sense of you don't really want to be feminine like you want to be feminine but you don't really care to be found them you know it's like there's a part of you that like wants to wear dresses and there's a part of you that's like completely happy being masculine and like it's kind of shallow and like makeup is sort of silly but at the same time you want it yeah it's it's I kind of disagree with you on that because um I'm sure he didn't mean it like that but I feel like the way you said that sounds like more important thoughts are more like masculine while shallow things are feminine that's what I heard I know I didn't mean it like that that's it interesting let me just think about that for a second yeah do you feel that way though no I don't okay do you do you judge yourself for wanting to be more feminine kind of but kind of not yes just kind of not because I feel like it's it's a normal thing like when you are happy with the gender you are I I guess it's normal to feel like you want to look like that genders sure no of course let me ask you something when you were at that birthday party did you feel left out yeah that did you feel I know this is gonna sound kind of weird but disproportionate mm-hmm did you feel like a goblin not physically at that time but I guess like mentally I felt like I didn't wasn't supposed to be there didn't belong - yeah so when I when I think about not so I don't I'm not supposed to be here and and like I can almost envision when you put on a dress there's a part of your mind that says I'm not supposed to wear this like this isn't me well yeah it's I don't know how to describe it it's uh it is what you're saying it's true okay so yeah so so I think it's kind of interesting because you know I guess this is this is where I sort of I didn't use good words and thank you for pointing out you know where you disagree but I guess I get a sense of like there's a part of you that wants this and there's a part of you that judges that that's what I'm sensing that you want to wear a dress I get that you're sensing that that's not what I meant um I'm not saying like femininities shallow because they're not it is I know so so I think that wasn't a good example so so I'm trying to clarify so I think that like you want to wear a gendered dress but you also judge yourself for wearing a dress all right let's forget about shallowness and femininity for a moment but just that there's a part of you that like wants it and there's a part of you that blames you for like trying to have it Hey that's a better way to put it hmm is that fair oh yeah I want to I want to feel okay wearing feminine stuff yep and when did you start judging yourself or when did you start thinking that it's not like it's awkward or it's not you to wear or be feminine wear feminine things are to be feminine when did that start kind of always been like that it's it's always been like that that I it's just been it's been always been a part of my personality to not be feminine right and not just good not just to me so everyone yeah fine so I'm not talking about whether it's been a part I'm asking when did you start judging yourself for it oh right because you're also saying that used to be perfectly fine like being a tomboy but at some point that changed right at some point you started to become less okay with like being more masculine and less feminine is that basically around puberty no I guess it was last year of high school maybe second-year high school we're taking her 30 what happened then what happened tell me about that I don't know watch it I I don't know um I just I remember its it kind of went like slow I what I thought I remember one day I thought maybe I want to wear makeup today to school just because I think makeup can be can it looks like it can be fun you know I didn't do it but and it's just like my thoughts like I just started coming yeah why didn't you do it I think it's very helpful tell me why didn't you do it because I didn't first of all I knew everyone in class well not everyone people in class and my friend would comment on it like doesn't matter if it was positive or negative they would notice it and comment on it if I showed up at school with Mike what does that mean to you they kind of wished I just wish they wouldn't have said anything they just let me wear makeup and not say anything about it I didn't want I didn't want people wouldn't notice it why did you want to be noticed why do you want to be invisible I never I've never liked it I don't like being noticed well I a lot of being noticed by people very close to me but everyone else is I don't I don't want to be noticed by people I'm fine with just like walking through and not be noticed yeah that is queer question is what does it mean to be notice to you what happens when people notice you I get embarrassed why what where did you where did you learn that noticing comes with it being noticed comes with embarrassment it's just like I've thought about this before and like I can't put it into words but best way I can describe it is like if I enter a room you know how when if you're in a room and someone else enters room you immediately like look at them just because that's what you do I just hate the thought of entering a room and being aware that other people in the room is aware that I just entered the room even if they don't care I entered the room even if it don't look I mean I just hate thought of the people being aware of me how long have you been like that since I was like I don't remember exactly like 12 13 14 maybe did you have a crush on anyone in high school not really I never really thought about stuff like that have you ever had a crush on anyone well okay now gonna say something but I have a boyfriend so it's yeah that's a whole other story but like before him I never had any interest in anyone romantically I never even had a celebrity crush how do you understand that what do you mean how does one understand like so like most people you know tend to have a crush at some point during high school hmm right so if you're not if you don't have a crush during high school then what do you think is up with that I think it's because when I notice in my relationship now I how do I say this I don't I honestly think my boyfriend is handsome but I really really care about looks this arm that looks thing cares about looks like a normal person like do you ever know why he's with you yeah all the time I ask him all the time what is he saying he say cuz I love you what is that how do you feel when he says that I mean it makes me feel happy because cuz like personality-wise why it's sure but looks I don't know why he stays doesn't do better yeah so I mean does that doesn't sort of make sense that he says because I love you not because you're beautiful what do you mean like so does he ever does he ever comment on your appearance do you know and how do you feel when he does that he does seat a lot and I I say he's a good boyfriend well yeah he I say thank you but it's like I I don't believe it it's like he's just saying it because he has to because it's my boyfriend [Music] how are you feeling right now talking about this I hate calm like I was so stressed before the stream but it's it's fine now what is it like talking about it I've done it so many times with professionals that I just I've said these sentences before so it's it's fine what's I don't working with professionals I don't notice I've been unlucky with the professionals I've been set up with but I it's been terrible what's been terrible about it it's they will I've never felt like that actually try to understand what it feels like it's been more like they've I almost felt like a test subject that like Adam no which is one of the reasons why I applied to be on stream because I feel like you talk differently than the ones I found him so you're saying it feels like a being a test object how so [Music] because they and they've told me so many times like this is the way that we have seen is working and etc that's why we're doing this but it's it's they asked me tons of questions that I feel like doesn't get me thinking at all because they're just asking questions I've already asked told them the answer to but they're not they're not connecting that together so I just feel like I'm repeating what I've already said I feel like I am explaining I I'm explaining how I feel to them and then they are trying to understand it but they're not our state they're not it feels like I'm the one you're the expert in the room yeah if you look on the expert I'm gonna be getting anything from you sure yeah that's what it's been with the professional stuffing gravy are you ugly I think I am wasn't the coin I think I am what is there doubt oh really so I'll ask you again are you ugly yeah how long have you been ugly I guess since puberty I feel like children aren't Oakley there's children oh sure what are we gonna do about that I don't know I have no idea hmm do you think it's possible for me to convince you that you're not ugly I think it's possible to feel less ugly but not no not not ugly okay do you think you can live a happy life if you are ugly yeah do you are you happy usually not but what gets in the way of your happiness like I've um during this whole quarantine thing I've felt a bit better because I don't have to go out but um I don't know it's as I said before just the thought of people are aware of me you know did you have a problem being noticed when you were a kid like I didn't get attention or something no you didn't like attention I never liked the tension so do you really think your problem do you wish that your mom had taught you how to put on makeup or your sister time you put on makeup when you were in high school no not really it's um I don't know how to answer that because I wish I had just done it and I thought that they had pushed it on me perfect that makes sense okay Ingrid I'm gonna share a couple of thoughts with you if that's okay I feel like I could ask you more questions but I'm not so sure that they would get anywhere so I'd like to share some thoughts with you and then get a sense of whether you think we're on the right track or not and then we can try to figure out where to go from here hmm so the first is I think it's very strange that you the way that you describe your high school experience like and maybe this is just me projecting my own high school experience but I think it's very strange that you were not attracted or had a crush on a single person during high school what do you think about that I know it's strange because like even if you don't have a huge crush on someone people usually have like people day absolutely [ __ ] hormones right yeah I never really liked that you you started getting your period and stuff sometime around high school well way earlier than that but really do you know when girls get their periods yeah well how old were you when you got your period sirki okay so but a high school is 14 right oh no my country is 16 so oh god okay so so you got your period when you were 13 and then did you notice changes in your body around that time too I'm yeah did people treat you differently around that time no did people treat other girls differently around that time like did the boys treat other girls differently around that time I don't I don't really know okay I don't know okay it's I don't think so okay so let's kind of go back to high school and let's let's kind of toss in what ever was before high school too so I just think it's a little bit strange also that you said that like during high school you really didn't have any friends and you were okay with in high school or before in high school yeah that also strikes me as a little bit strange okay because my understanding is that most people so it's not that strange to not have friends in high school what strikes me is a little bit stranger is to not want friends in high school I was just I was just have been doing my school work that's I understand that you were happy doing your school work but I think that you were let me put it a different way would you say that you are comfortable doing your school work comfortable yes yeah in high school would you say you were uncomfortable on interacting with other people yeah usually yeah yeah right so yeah so I mean that also is not like a like you know that applies to pretty much everyone but what I'm noticing in you in grid and and just try to take a step back and just like like try it as best as you can to listen to what I'm saying pull yourself out of your own shoes for a second and what it sounds to me like is you actually have you probably have things going on within you that you're not really aware of or don't remember so I think that this comes down to comfort and discomfort and that you let yourself you you're kind of like you strike me as somewhat avoidant right like if things make you uncomfortable it's like really hard which is why I think it's so awesome that you actually came on stream that's [ __ ] insane but that that you know you tend to shy away from things that make you uncomfortable which is a completely normal thing for human beings to do but in your case I think you've even shied away from some of your thoughts and feelings from a young and that like I don't think that you suddenly develop body dysmorphia at the age of like seven I mean people do you get diagnosed with it because it becomes it becomes like problematic like you said a year or two ago like that's when it you use the word Pete right like when you talked about bodies this morphe you said it peaked like a year ago but that still implies that it started way before that but whenever I ask you questions about like you know how did you feel about your appearance and sometimes you can give me answers that maybe are the ones that I'm looking for like when we think about that party in high school that you got invited to there's so much laced into there the first is that like and I want you to notice like you even have such a low opinion of yourself that you say the only reason she invited me is because she invited everyone else do you see that like it's like you're not even worth inviting does that make sense like in your mind as you tell the story it's like there's no reason she would want to invite me you're not worth and great and you kind of say well we weren't really friends but she invited everyone else so she must have invited me and like that may be true but the point here and this is the really interesting thing is that some people who are most people who find themselves being unhappy or like not something in their life isn't going well they usually blame someone else right mm-hmm and and so but then when I ask you a question and it's kind of interesting that you know your mom isn't so feminine and your sister is like pretty feminine that you don't really blame them you blame yourself and so what I'm detecting at the bar at the bottom of all of this whether you call it body dysmorphia are not being feminine or whatever is a sense that like you are not like worthwhile in some fundamental way that you are not worth inviting to a party that you recognize and I think the cool thing is that there are parts of you that recognize that like you have Worth is a human being and I doesn't seem it seems like I get the sense that it's not alien that there's there's a guy out there who loves you that's not alien to you right like that doesn't feel weird or does it well no um what feels alien to you is that there's a guy who's attracted to you physically yeah and and so it's kind of interesting because I think you have parts of you that recognized that like you're a decent person and you're you're fine and stuff like that but there's this undercurrent of like assumption that you're not gonna get invited to a birthday party like unless they're inviting they're just doing it to be polite and and I think that that this is where we've gotta really like I'm wondering what other so as we try to understand why you have these feelings or where these feelings come from by the way do you want to jump in or comment listen I'm on the right track wrong track makes sense doesn't make sense it makes sense yeah so the basic issue is we talk to you about like body dysmorphia and feminism not feminism but like feminist femininity femininity thank you you know like it's like I feel like we're missing some piece of the puzzle here like you could describe certain feelings and you can say okay but like there's just some things that seem like gaps to me and what I think is going on is that you're probably moving away from certain thoughts or feelings because they make you uncomfortable which is bizarre because like you wouldn't expect that right because like now you're you're telling us things like when I look in the mirror I feel disproportionate I feel like I'm a goblin like I feel like I like you know you're because you're saying lots of stuff that makes us makes it appear like you're giving us a transparent look at your mind which you are but I think what's missing is that you didn't always know how to do that right like as as the body dysmorphia crystallizes in your mind you can give us a more transparent view of what's going on in your mind make sense so I don't think you're hiding things from us it's just that I think this started a long time ago and you have like very little awareness of it like in high school yeah so in a bizarre way I think the way forward is to really tunnel down because I think there's there are some things that somewhere along the way like people made you feel like you do not you're not feminine like I don't think and I think some of it was tomboyish but I would guess that there is some insignificant events in your mind that actually were quite significant I should also probably say I forgot to said I have had comments said to me in high school schools about my appearance negatively yeah so but here's the question so I think here's the turning point Ingrid when so at some point those comments I think hurt you because you didn't believe it that about yourself and at some point you started to believe those things about yourself does that make sense like it's bizarre because at one point those probably hurt you but now if someone tries to tell you the opposite it's hurtful it flipped yeah that's exactly cuz I remember I didn't really care that much when they told me the things but somewhere along the way something flipped and I think if you want to get free of all the [ __ ] that's where you have to find you have to find that point it's like I'm gonna just say this again because I think it may be just to clarify and think out loud so like now when someone calls you pretty you're like [ __ ] you you're wrong but there used to be a time where someone called you ugly and you said [ __ ] you you're wrong yeah and so I wouldn't say I wouldn't say that I didn't think that they were wrong I just didn't really care so much so that two strikes me as somewhat like numb right so uh so I I find it hard to believe like you say that you don't care about a lot of stuff that's very surprising to me like you said you didn't care I mean you don't and it's possible you don't care but I think oftentimes not caring is a sign of numbness right like not caring is not feeling and so I think that that too is like a protective mechanism that you numb that part of you you suppress those feelings and then you end up with the words I don't care because if something hurts us one of the best ways we can protect ourselves is to not care yeah but my sense is that every time you say I don't care there's actually a little bit of hurt and that if you want to get free from the body dysmorphia you have to start by like figuring out in what ways that actually did hurt because not caring is the way that you protect yourself right like oh like when my dad was supposed to pick me up on the weekend and we were supposed to go to a baseball game together he didn't show up oh I don't care right hmm when my parents picked me up an hour late and I was the last kid at school every day I didn't care I was fine with that and this is where like it really bizarrely like you know I mean not to you know [ __ ] things up even more but even the way that you approach your feelings is incredibly masculine how what do you mean because you your standard answer is I don't care well yeah I I I'm admitted that I care now yeah yeah I get that I'm not trying to blame you for saying I don't care I'm I'm pointing out that like somewhere along the way how are you feeling right now am i attacking you no it's fine okay you sure yeah I don't care there it is again so now now Ingrid we're gonna do a little bit of work I want you to tunnel down because I don't think you 100% don't care okay I think something that I'm saying is creating a little bit of negative emotion in you I don't know if you're angry at me I don't know if you're frustrated if you're sad if you think I'm wrong I think there's something there I can see something in your face okay what do you what do you think that could be do you really not care are you are you asking me if I care about how you just said my way of approaching feelings are masculine just all of it well yeah I care I don't really care about what you just said but okay else I care are you four pence on what we're talking about sure very very fair sir as I've been speaking to you have you noticed any kinds of emotions um I can't even like name them I don't yep I don't I guess I have but I I they're not being like super strong yeah yeah so that so Ingrid I think that in that's where you need to go right because I think what's going on is you have actually a lot of stuff you have a very rich internal environment but the problem is that when I listen to your description of your internal environment it's very like it has a couple of different colors one is that Ingrid like looks [ __ ] weird right and then like Angra doesn't care about a lot of things and Ingrid want certain things and then it makes you feel uncomfortable when you put on the dress like what does that mean discomfort is not actually an emotion no so when you put on a dress do you feel ashamed of yourself mm-hmm is that like something that you're kind of like do you know so what else like why do you feel ashamed of yourself when you put on a dress well I feel ashamed yeah well where's one thing is as I said earlier like how dare you young and so what is that emotion it's just like I'm not I can't me I can't wear a dress because I am me and who are you I'm I'm a girl I can't wear feminine stuff I think there's more to it than that the problem is that I don't I can't name it yeah right like there's there's some kind of like loathing there does that word make sense or fit at all I'm not sure with loathing means loathing is almost like hatred okay yeah do you have some degree of like hatred towards yourself well yeah okay this is the way said well like obviously is that is that new for you or like you've always known that all along it's it's not new but it hasn't been there okay when did you start hating yourself probably a high school like second year maybe see it like it's interesting because you can give me specific answers you can say this happened to the third or fourth year this happened in the first year this happened in the second year and so what happened to your second year of high school what happened that you started hating yourself don't know if it's I um I was like in high school I was I was scribed I guess I was kind of arrogant high school absolutely and I knew that wasn't a thing and I didn't like that why were you Merrigan why are people arrogant because I think they're better than others that's why I don't know no no so people that's what arrogance looks like but people are arrogant because they're afraid they're not better than others they're afraid they're not normal right so arrogance actually comes from a lack of self confidence okay I did not move yeah so so generally speaking the way that I view arrogant said I don't know if you've seen me talk about Vedic psychology have you seen me in any of that stuff I probably have so I think you're a very classic case of like Vedic psychology to like understand you so I'll try to give you a very quick primer so we have three parts of our mind five but let's explain three so one is your emotional mind one is your ego and one is your rational mind so your emotional mind experiences emotions and then your ego usually steps in to try to protect you from your emotions so like your ego will do things like oh you know if I fail a test I'm gonna call the teacher a dumbass for writing such a poorly written test does that make sense like I'm not going to just because the idea that oh I actually failed or unstopping is so painful my ego kind of turns on and starts blaming other people now in your case I think that your arrogance like if you were arrogant in high school like that's strange right like I'm just I want I want to just paint you the picture that we have a view Ingrid and maybe I'm assuming but I would imagine to echad has this like you're like shy you're like the sort of like the quiet kid like you don't really have a whole lot of friends you spend you enjoy studying you're kind of a tomboy you're not very feminine you're not flirtatious you're not confident you're kind of the kid that's invisible and it's strange to think of the kid who's invisible is arrogant but the kid who's invisible absolutely is arrogant right because most of twitch at is invisible in school and [ __ ] arrogant all the way the most arrogant they have very very strongly held opinions they're smarter than everyone else they have super high IQs and they're [ __ ] arrogant and they judge other people and they feel left out and they're invisible and people don't invite them to parties and they just get invited to parties because like they're a person who's inviting you is being polite making sense so that arrogance is protective because like the alternative is if you're not arrogant in those situations then you just feel awful because it like I'm a no one no one likes me like you can either be arrogant and and sort of say like oh these people all suck at life I'm smarter than they are or you can say no one really likes me and I don't have any friends so that makes sense it's really mundane read your facial expressions right now oh sorry no no it's okay I mean I'm not blaming you I'm just commenting so I I don't know like if I'm I don't know if I'm you're buying what I'm selling I can't tell but I am because it's illogical it's not yeah but I mean buying what I'm selling is not about logic is it resonating with you it's okay to say not really um a little bit I'm not sure actually you're not sure if it's resonating uh no no you're not sure or I'm not sure if you're not sure okay yeah hmm so that so I don't know if I'm off the mark or whether you're just numb to whether things are resonating it's hard for me to tell but I'd guess that I'm off the mark no it's more like um no more like you're numb yeah yeah so let me just kind of let me take a step back and just think for a second so Ingrid it so first of all I think that you can I don't think so commenting on your appearance I think is like how can I say this so I think you can start to feel better about yourself I absolutely think it's possible and I think it's because this I I don't know I mean maybe you can do some kind of like CVT kind of stuff or something like that there appear tickly and I have one or two suggestions for you from from a very practical standpoint about how the process of your mind works and how thoughts function in your mind but the first thing is that if you want to not feel this way and you want to feel comfortable wearing a dress you've got a couple of options one is to do exactly what you did today which is that today you want it to be invisible your concern that you are disproportionate when you came on stream and you showed your face and somehow you were able to like take those feelings that you have and essentially say it doesn't matter so like the question is when you're with your boyfriend can you come to a place of peace and kind of accept that it doesn't matter whether he finds you attractive or not are you okay with that no not yet no right so so this is this is the kind this is one solution is that you can you can start to learn detachment and like to not let your feelings dictate how you behave what do you feel well I feel like you're shutting down kind of M yeah what's that I don't know let's talk about that this is exactly what we're talking about I've been losing you for a little while now right yeah I don't know how to put it into words I guess it's uh I I'm just I don't know it's I'm listening to you and sure what you're saying is true but okay what about it so what it what is that Ingrid I think this is very important and we have to understand what what is what is the but I I don't know it doesn't do anything it's okay it's like okay now I know this cool I know this yeah so what I'm curious about is like when did that change when it when I started explaining things maybe yeah I think so I don't know why because it's not like I'm not I'm not it's not like I'm disagreeing with what you're saying I get that you're not disagreeing I just don't think you're buying what I'm selling which is fine I'm not I think we need to understand why that is so what am I missing Ingrid what is it that I don't know like here's what I'm sensing from you now you can say whatever you want it's completely logical but it doesn't apply to me because what what do you mean like like I'm envisioning in your mind the the the body language and facial expressions that you're sending my way tell me in my in my mind I'm imagining the thought in your mind is all this is fantastic but it doesn't apply to me because something well yeah because I'm not really allowing myself to have a problem I guess I'm not really it feels like you are describing someone with body dysmorphia that it doesn't apply to me yep and like that's making me doubt like do I have bought a dysmorphia but why doesn't that apply to you what's different about the people that I'm talking about the person that you are I wish I could answer better I don't um take take your time [Music] like I'm just me and I'm me and garden stuff that's going to be absolutely why not what's different about you what's special about you tell me about how you're different from other people I wouldn't say I'm different I would sound very average no I don't think so oh because you're saying that what I'm saying applies to other people but doesn't apply to use there's got to be something different about you see this is what your mind does it jumps in and logically discounts whatever you're feeling like how are you feeling you're different because you're just telling me that like you're you just told me that everything I'm saying applies to people with body dysmorphia but it doesn't apply to you and then when I asked you in what way are you different you say I'm just average fine but like what how are you different why does why does everything that I have to say not help you at all I feel like you're expecting me to have some answer and I'll explain it but I don't I just don't feel like it applies to me because [Music] I guess maybe because I'm never really maybe it's because I've never been like a part of like I've never been a part of the girls and I've never been a part with the guys so like if I have a problem with not fitting in then that's just like normal I don't know let me try to put your dude good Ingrid you're doing good you feeling frustrated yes okay good so I think you're doing fantastic I'm letting you flounder by the way because a lot of the a lot of times when you said that you you haven't had words I don't know if you notice but I jump in and I offer you explanations but I don't think that's actually helping us so I think you've got to learn how to flounder and I know it makes you feel uncomfortable and now I'm gonna reflect back what I heard from you what I can say sounds wonderful and logical but it applies to normal people it applies to people who have body dysmorphia and or women or body dysmorphia and or men but like I'm an outsider everything that you say applies to the insiders and I'm an outsider what do you think about that is that fair I'd mean fair like is that act like a fair representation of how you feel yeah I think so so would it be fair to say that like I just can't really help you or understand because I've worked with a bunch of people who are insiders or I myself in an insider and I just won't be able to understand you so can you repeat that yeah like would it be fair to say that and I notice it's gonna sound weird so I really want you to think before you answer okay that like I'm not going to be able to help you because I'm just not going to be able to understand you because you're just an outsider it's I mean I first of all I think like unless you had a unless you've had body dysmorphia you never truly understand I completely agree everything but that goes without saying I guess I'm gonna but um I completely lost maternal [ __ ] that's okay ah I think you've been working hard cognitively for the last hour or more yeah and how do you feel about just sort of I know it's gonna be kind of unsatisfying but how do you feel about kind of winding down sure okay if if you if you don't have anything more to add then I guess it's no point I can try to share some closing thoughts I just don't think that we're gonna crack this today because that's what body dysmorphia is like so here's Ingrid here's what I would suggest to you if you're interested in suggestions the first is that like I think you've got to go back to high school and try to really figure out why if there were things that you felt which you weren't aware of yeah and and i think that something about that is because i think it comes down to this idea of like one thing swept right when did when did other people when did you have a view of yourself that was not ugly let's not focus on pretty for a second but just there was a time at which you didn't really think about ugliness versus prettiness right and then there was a time where you started believing that you were ugly or disproportionate right hmm and so I think if you want to be free of this thing which I think it's possible and I know you I imagine you disagree then you have to go back to like that point and try to explore where the flip happened because now you are sure like you kind of talked about when you say I talk about people with body dysmorphia you don't even think you have body dysmorphia right it goes up yeah officials have told me and when I feel like even is it like I've had a good day today I haven't been fun at all today good so this has been a good day but when I have those bad days which is a lot I definitely think I have it but it's like I definitely think I have it then but it's I'm still kind of not allowing myself to have it so that also like is that something you were aware of like they're not allowing yourself to have it I a little bit okay because I think that's huge - because I think this comes back to judgement and allowing yourself to feel certain ways which also kind of goes back to high school but I think that this is really really important that you you know you're not willing to cut yourself a break does that make sense like you're not willing to say like this is not okay because there's a part of you that doesn't believe that this is an illness there's a part of you just that just believes that the rest of the world is wrong they just don't understand right like it's not yet anyone sick here it's just that they just can't [ __ ] use their eyes yeah right and and that's how you feel right it's like like well even when I say oh you can be free of this one day there's a part of you that I think rebels against that and says this guy doesn't if I the second I say that I've lost you because you're like there's no way to be free of this because it's fact it's like how can you be free of gravity you can't ever be free of gravity and start flying there's no there's no universe in which I'm gonna wake up one day and I'm not gonna feel this way about myself because this is true hmm and that's the not allowing and it's very very dangerous and I think this kind of comes back to comfort and discomfort because if you don't allow yourself to be better then you don't ever have to face the dress yeah and so I think the real challenge here is like like because when you when you when you when you accept that you're ugly and you're not feminine sure it hurts but like you can deal with that the possibility that you could be beautiful and if you put on a dress and you put on makeup and and did your hair or whatever like whatever feminine ideal of beauty that you have the possibility that you're actually beautiful like what do you think about that does that thought scare you not really I feel like I feel like what you're thinking right now is like I would I would just be happy if I was just content with being ugly but if I could feel beautiful then yeah that would be great I don't think that I don't think you would be content I mean you can learn to be content being ugly that's one path but I I think that there's a part of you that's not allowing yourself to be beautiful because something about that is like frightening to you and like well it's it's frightening in the sense that I um I have worn a dress like in public and recently but like last year and that was scary what's scary about it I feel out of place it's uh no one said anything negative no one really said anything about it at all except my boyfriend you almost became invisible yeah yeah so Ingrid I I think it's gonna be hard like I think you have to allow yourself the possibility of being pretty but I don't think you want to do that right like I think there are two pieces one is that you there's a part of you that thinks that it's impossible to be pretty and I think there's another part of you that doesn't allow yourself to try to be pretty I've tried to feel pretty but it hasn't worked and if I go on I just feel so anxious yeah so very practically have you done exposure therapy before No so very practically you may want to try that right so like just because you go out and you don't feel pretty like what happens the next day like could you wear a dress like what would happen if you I mean I think you should consider seeing a therapist because I think this is in I mean this is tough so having worked with people with body dysmorphia I can tell you that it's probably the most challenging patient population I've ever worked with okay why is it because I think in their minds things are not flexible like it's not it's not an issue of like there's no exploration it's just facts so I was I worked with some like body builders and boy that's just really hard yeah they are they're the most in-shape people they look artificial like they don't even look like real humans and yet it's not good enough and it takes a long long time to figure out like where to date like so in Ingrid which you've got to figure out it's like I'm not disputing the fact that you're ugly I'm not disputing that because that doesn't do you any good my question is when did that start when did you learn because what you've really got to do is go back to the point where like you when you say you didn't care like there was like sure you like the reason you didn't care is because it hurt you to hear that right so I want you to translate I don't care into I'm suppressing this emotion and it's numbing me like there's no [ __ ] way that you can tell a thirteen-year-old that they're ugly or make fun of them or like call them not feminine and that they don't care so that make sense yeah like it hurts them hmm but you're not aware of that hurt and so this thing this body dysmorphia has been growing within you for a long time and you only noticed it when it became very very severe but it started a long time ago and what I can tell you is that if you can understand like if you can go back to an Ingrid who did actually feel not even pretty but like could just completely neutral about her appearance didn't care didn't think about other people when she went on in public with a dress because that part of you exists right like you did that one day and try to figure out like how did you like when you were 9 years old like did you wear dresses and go outside no when I was 9 when I was younger because my mom picked my clothes so right so like this may go even further back than high school so part of the reason that we may not find the answer there is like when did use when did you start to like really give up your femininity and this when you say like that I think like it was very early but when I did it it it when I did it it didn't really matter because like it was a mix of like I it's fine and also it's a bit cool to be a tomboy fine yeah so so I I don't know that like so my point is that I think you got a lore of this stuff and if you're willing to see a therapist again I think the main thing to look for is to try to find like you know all these times when you say you didn't care because someone said something to you I think it was actually hurtful and then at some point they didn't need to say it to you and the reason it hurts is because like you didn't believe that about yourself mm-hmm and once you started believing yourself about yourself then it no longer hurts when people call you I go right like even when you say you just wish your boyfriend would call you ugly and get it over with yeah I tell him that right so at some point like my point is that there was one point in your life where you when someone insulted your appearance and you said I don't care but you did care you were just suppressing the hurt and then at some point that changed and it was no longer like but in order for you to be hurt by someone calling you ugly you have to have a belief about yourself that you're not going with me hmm and then at some point that belief about yourself changed and you have to undo whatever that damages yeah and I think that's something that you probably need to work with someone like a therapist but in a targeted fashion where you need to steer them instead of listening to all their [ __ ] about body dysmorphia that's I did try and do because I've been talking to a therapist but I stopped because I didn't want to she was terrible and I did try to go to like an up an organization for students that offers very cheap therapy sessions and I waited there and I waited there for like 40 minutes he called me in he asked me like what what do you what's up and I explained it to him and five minutes later he just said not we can't help you and he said no way so I I don't know where to go okay well I mean we don't offer therapy but our recovery coach program is about to launch in a week or two and if you're interested you can try to work with one of our coaches I wonder if they'll be able to help you I mean I don't think they'll be able to help you with their body dysmorphia but I wonder if they'll be able to help you in some other ways like in terms of understanding the way your mind works and things like that but I would also give therapy another shot it sounds really really awful I don't know why someone would say after five minutes we can't help you like I don't know what did you tell that I I told them that I hope body dysmorphia and I spend a lot of time worrying about my parents and it's exhausting and I don't know what to do and the thing is like I think he was very busy real in a hurry so it like it almost felt like he just wanted to like as quickly as possible just like getting out that's awful yeah because he he he was 40 minutes late when I got there I explained he just he just he didn't do anything he just he looked so he was just waiting for me to leave and when I was finished I was like ya know that we don't do that Ingrid knew something yep how did that make you feel I was shocked cuz like even though I haven't been happy with the therapist earlier they have never just dismiss me like that how does it feel to be dismissed it feels like what I'm thinking it's not valid at all so I called my boyfriend and told him and he gave them an angry call and yeah I was thinking how does it feel to have your thoughts and your feelings not be taken seriously you're suffering to not be taken seriously it's it's kind of demoralizing like absolutely I'm really in a weird way Ingrid I'm really happy to hear you say that because the answer can you guess what answer I was afraid of I don't care it's beautiful so I think that's a step in the right direction to be completely honest I think to be rejected and to recognize that you were hurt by rejection is actually like really really important cuz I think the point here is that like you started to develop a view about yourself because just think about this for a second you got rejected time and time and time again in all manner of tiny tiny ways about your appearance about your femininity about not being invited to birthday parties parties and each of those points something started to grow within you it was like this evil evil seed of body dysmorphia and since you were so good at ignoring it all the time it just continued to grow and grow and grow and grow and grow until at this point can't ignore it anymore it's gigantic it's blocking out all of your windows and you can't get out of your house because it's there it's all around you and it feels so real to you because this [ __ ] is it's like it's in every part of your mind and you have good days and you have bad days and the good days you forget but the tree is still there it's like just because I choose not to look out the window and I don't see the tree doesn't mean the tree has gone away but I do think that there's hope for you I think it just involves going back to like understanding each time that you you know felt those little injuries and you let that tree grow going back and undoing that a little bit can I can I hear your opinion on something else I don't know if it relates to this go for it but I was I served in the Navy uh-huh and during that time it was like first I went to boot camp and so obviously like we got up at 5:00 worked so hard all day done at 8 p.m. mm-hm so like what I experienced there [Music] what I experienced there was I during the day when we were like things were constantly happening there was no brakes I did not think about any of this hmm and I didn't feel numb but I don't feel like I changed how I interact sure beautiful so but once like we we were done for the day and we got to do whatever we want I just broke down just cried in the bathroom and in the bed avoided people and I don't know why yeah it's uh yeah so what do you remember what yeah I can see you even getting emotional thinking about it yeah I started having panic attacks like pretty frequently during that time hmm do you still have panic attacks not really um not lately okay so Ingrid I think that makes a lot of sense to me but I think it's maybe hard to explain so in the past on stream I've talked about this principle of whack-a-mole with mental health issues so I'm gonna have to explain a little bit of context is that okay mm-hmm so in my work with people with borderline personality disorders so this is a particular condition where people don't have a clear sense of their internal sense of self they don't know who they are on the inside and so what happens is the way that they feel about themselves is the way that they're treated so if I'm empty on the inside when I look on the outside the way that other people treat me determines Who I am as a person does that make sense with me so people with BPD tend to have three behaviors sometimes that all kind of it's hard because they'll they'll have drug problems so they'll drink alcohol or use drugs they'll do self injurious behavior like cutting so they'll cut themselves or burn themselves with cigarettes or things like that or they'll have very restricted eating behaviors so they'll you know they'll be had that's it by the way okay so we're gonna get to that okay so why what happens with BPD is that anytime you try to treat one of these problems the other ones get worse so when they go to like when they get into eating disorder treatment their drug use and their cutting gets worse if you hospitalized them where they can't cut and you take away all their razor blades and they don't have access to drugs they stop eating their food in the hospital so it's almost like anything that you fix makes the other ones worse so the ways and I want huh it's Lakmal so I think what's going on with you Ingrid is oddly enough it doesn't surprise me that you have restrictive eating and other that does Navy experience because I think your mind has a particular way of like processing and managing your emotions and what it does is it beats the [ __ ] out of you that's what it does so you have some like thoughts and feelings which like the only way that you know and I want you to think about this for a second when you take pictures of yourself you are feeding the Beast right like even though you feel terrible about yourself there's something incredibly satisfying about feeding that hunger you're sitting there and you're watching TV and then you get hungry and then you start to snack you pull out your phone and you take a picture of yourself and then it's like ooh that was a delicious chip let me take another one and then another chip and another chip and another chip and another chip and even though you feel on the surface on some degree terrible about yourself there's something that feels very satisfying about it right and then what happens is you go to [ __ ] boot camp and then what don't you have time to do it boot camp is feed this beast and then you've got these emotions that are like piled up inside that don't know what the [ __ ] to do because they're like hey Ingrid we had a deal we were gonna beat ourselves up for hours and hours and hours a day and look in the mirror so that we can feel these things and now you're taking that away from us and then stuff comes flooding back and I wouldn't be surprised if your eating behaviors were bad when some other this [ __ ] was good well yeah yeah so I mean like going forward I think this still goes back to this like Ingrid do you get that like when you were in the Navy like you didn't have the place to feel those feelings so they came out it all goes back to like not really understanding what you feel you've got all the [ __ ] that's going on inside you like you know you have all of these like it's just stuff that's going on inside you have no way of dealing with it so you've got to find someplace to start digging into that and understanding how you feel you're incredibly Alexa thymic if you've heard me talk about that before well inability to tell what your internal emotional status okay right and like half of them huh that doesn't sound good I mean it's it's a protective mechanism and video games makeup turn do that to us too so they're like when you you know like so let me ask you this when you play a video game how do you feel I I don't exactly I just play and have it's fun exactly right so like like you you have your video games are a way to get away from that hungry beast right yeah yeah so I mean like that's why we played so I think you're like I think you've got to start by understanding what your feelings are and you got to start by understanding that it's not true it's just that truth comes from like all of this pile of you know little like how does someone something to be true right they have experiences over and over and over and over again until one day you walk outside and you know how gravity works hmm so in your case you had a thousand or 10,000 experiences telling you that you're an ugly person does that make sense like you don't just wake up one day and believe that you're ugly that's not how it happens no so you were taught to believe that about yourself in some way maybe you taught it to yourself and if you want to be different if you want to be able to wear a dress again you've got to like go back and and undo some of that stuff but it's it's it's weird cuz I don't know how long are you talking about yeah I don't know either I've been hour and a half I've had comments said to me quite a lot in high school but like as I said I felt like I didn't care I probably did care but abside felt like I didn't care so we're looking for so sometimes on stream it's like one thing right one moment in your case I don't think that you are aware they still could be one moment but each one of those things is like a little like strengthens that beast within you gives you the idea that Ingrid is like Ingrid is an ugly person hmm I think it's gonna take time I mean it's not like a one one stream kind of thing you know it's like you got to really dig into this and you're welcome to join our programs and stuff we try to teach people out of meditate and things like that it's complimentary to therapy if you decide to engage with a therapist I would give it another shot I'm sorry you've had bad experiences unfortunately that's what we what I hear over and over and over again is that mental health resources suck ass I'm sorry about that yeah yeah I can't really afford a private one either so it would be someone the doctor it would be someone like the doctor set me up with like one by the government sure what country you're on it Norway okay so it's free here but in my experience they're not good yeah I'm sorry about that so I mean we have I mean hopefully we'll be able to help you out a little bit but anyway I mean coaching isn't therapy but you know we can try to teach you some things like meditation and stuff like that but by the way do you want to meditate today sure you can try I don't believe in it but I can try what do you believe it I don't even mean well first of all like it's not really like the way you do the meditation thing but like we've had a lot of meditation gym class for some reason okay and I hate it what do you I can't sit still I can't I feel like a physical feeling tingling in my whole body that's not good it can't sit still I was excused from doing it in the end because like I it hurt it's not great I don't know what's up with that yeah buddy that's all suppressed emotion my friend oh okay so I want you to understand when you meditate so I want you to think about what are you feeling Ingrid you know what are you feeling right now yeah I can't put it into words okay Oh Ingrid okay sorry no no problem it's I mean it's just what are we gonna do with you we're gonna have to do something I'm just trying to figure out how I'm trying to think about how to help you and I don't think and I had something else yes I thought about when you explained you'll see so when I take the pictures I sometimes post the nice one on Instagram I have a few followers in this room and I shouldn't do it but I do it cuz and when I do not I get a lot of positive response but I don't even believe that yep so I don't know why I do why do I do it like my whole Instagram page with pictures or like me or what I'm wearing what I'm doing it like it doesn't feel like me it doesn't look like me why do you do it I don't know I've thought about quitting quitting so many times but but you can't yeah I always come back to it I've got an answer for you I don't know if it's if you're able to hear it or not because I think Ingrid you know like there's a war going on in you one in which you know you're an ugly person and wonder which you may not be an ugly person right and and you want people you're the part of you that knows that you're not an ugly person is looking for looking for ammo to continue fighting yeah but it's hard yeah what do you think when people will head us in every night how does your mind react when you post something why do you post things on Instagram let me just ask you what are you looking like it's hunger right like it's hunger you feel hungry when you post things on Instagram I feel hungry and then I feel ashamed because I I don't I don't really want to post those pictures cuz I don't I'm I'm not gonna say I don't care but like I feel like I don't I don't care about posting stuff about myself there it is so very good I want you to really pay attention to your words right I feel like I don't care like you don't want to care but you do care yeah this is thing you've always cared Ingrid even in high school you've always cared you just didn't watch it and you were better at deluding yourself then because you had the brain of a 13 year old but you have always cared and you're just bursting at the seams in emotion like now that I'm trying to get off the stream and end it you're keep on you're telling me more and more things well sorry yeah no no it's okay like I see this too I think this is part of your pattern actually that like in a sense like we've talked for a while and now like I'm pushing you out the door right just like that other guy who is late and you actually have a lot to say and it's very helpful it's very valuable I think it just takes some time to get there in everything that you're telling me is like reinforcing my idea that you just have a lot inside you that you just don't understand hmm this whole business with the Navy this whole business of like so when you meditate I want you to think about this right now youyou are keeping a lot of stuff down with pressure in your mind your mind is working it's sauce ting being you right I feel like it it's like so much work to just sit anywhere for any amount of time doing anything the only relief that you get is through distraction but even keeping those negative feelings down is like it's like you're pushing and pushing and pushing and all meditation is is it's taking the pressure off so whatever is down there it comes up so when I meditate with people with a history of PTSD I'm very careful with how I meditate with them because if you just empty their mind it's like a vacuum and all the trauma comes rushing out in your case you literally cannot sit still and you feel physically uncomfortable because those emotions are coming rushing out those emotions come out any which way you can call it body dysmorphia you can call it shame you could call it playing excessive video games this whole thing about taking pictures of yourself uploading it to Instagram it's all one [ __ ] thing man and you've got to like dig into that somehow I mean I think therapy is a good way to do it if you want to try to meditate we can try that cancer one more thing yep photo how that's happening huh things just get up now for an hour you don't have an answer now it's like oh what about this good keep going yeah do you think like I don't want to call it some sort of like physical trauma can have anything to do with it you haven't it's nothing pretty recently like you've been saying like how all this stuff go way back you know I'm just like wondering if something I don't know if I'll call it traumatic something kind of traumatic happened recently like how easily last year did your body be a peek before this happened no good piece after it happened mm-hmm do you feel comfortable sharing what happened sure if I don't have to go into detail sure or you don't have to share anything I can just comment on what I think without that but I'd love to hear you think it'll help if I share because I can share but well so I tend to do best when people give me raw data hmm but I can try to give you a theoretical answer which may or may not help but so what I'm so like what we're talking about is some kind of flip right like and I don't know where that flip is but that flip could have been recent so the point here is that Lane and sometimes physical trauma can do that so like there was something that was the way that I want you to think about this is like you had a you had a predisposition or a risk factor for body dysmorphia for maybe a long time but generally when we think about mental illness and diagnosing someone it's usually something that catalyzes that change so someone have always been like a little bit depressed but then when they went through the divorce is when like the depression really hits them but you can kind of see the signs and risk factors in the the cracks that the divorce that the depression kind of like breaks through like you can see the cracks start to form the weaknesses start to form early on and then oftentimes it is an event that sort of like really like lays people oh yeah and when you say peak like I'm assuming that that that that sort of you know that curve started a long time ago but absolutely you can kind of be going like this and then go like this hmm so and we see that like a lot of times like you know mental illness gets more severe under a particular stressor but all of the foundation of it was there before if that makes sense so I do think that a physical trauma could have a lot to do with it now the thing that's confusing to me about physical trauma is that I'm getting a sense of Worth and value and sense of self and hatred and shame about you which I'm surprised to hear relate to physical trauma unless the physical trauma was like malevolent in some way like if someone got into a car accident I would be really surprised to see this kind of manifestation I don't I don't think I should call it physical trauma actually it wasn't Mormon people but yeah abso-fucking-lutely yeah it wasn't it it wasn't like a car crash or anything yeah so if if it was a physical I look you can say what you want to or not say what you don't want to but I'm just saying I would be surprised if it was purely a physical trauma seems like it's not really a physical trauma no I realize now it wasn't I just I thought that was the way to describe it but it's okay sure do you want to tell us what happened so me and my boyfriend was at a party and and we were a party with one of his friends and we all got very drunk like I never been so drunk in my life and my boyfriend passed out on because we were sleeping there we passed out on the bed and I just I joined him because I didn't want to be alone in like I didn't want to be in the party without him and I I just laid down and I like I got undressed in a way down and then and he's my boyfriend's friend came in the one who was hosting the party and he started touching me yeah I think that could be related have you told anyone that before I'll just move away when you think about that what do you what are you feeling now I I sometimes think that I should be happy hmm because like he found you desirable but I didn't want to drop him you said you sometimes think you should be happy but how do you feel about that any of it because when I ask you how you feel your answer is I should dot dot dot but I feel girls about it I feel like I feel disgusting about it yeah and I did the day after slope because I woke up and like fill up and say click in my stomach when you put on a dress does any of that feeling come up maybe I haven't really noticed it a little bit and good I'm really sorry that that happened to you it sounds awful and sorry for laughing in a moment like this but sometimes that's the word I deal with negative emotions didn't feel but yeah I think that could be related my friend right I mean we can talk about foundations and that sort of makes sense like you know earlier when I started offering answers and we noticed that something was missing and now I think you've given us a lot to help us understand like I mean I didn't even know how to put all this together but it sure is how every one of those things that you shared with me feels very significant mm-hmm I think it's really hard once again I can't believe I sometimes I forget we're on twitch oh I'm sorry I brought it up because like that what are you sorry about because we've been going for so long now and I don't bring that up then actually really short so yeah but that's okay I think I think the reason that you so ingred things happen at their time in in their place and part of what we have to do is like let go of some expectations of how and when things are supposed to happen in my sense is that you just needed some time to kind of let this stuff out very smiling I'm just hopeful for you no it's good I know may seem weird but I think that you know if you're able to talk about it here and reach out for help and and I think that I'm hopeful for people where I can see a problem and like this is absolutely a problem in Europe like if you feel the way that you feel about yourself and something like this happened then you know I think that that gives me hope in a weird way because what what gives me no hope is like when we don't understand where the problem comes from but I think in your case there's all this like little stuff that was kind of building up and then there's like this feeling of being like dirty right hmm of being disgusting and and sometimes things happen to us that make us make us feel though that way but I'm hopeful that with the same courage that you displayed today cuz like I'm basing this on you yeah which is that at the end of the day I think you're incredibly courageous and I think you're incredibly intelligent I think you're awesome got some pretty sweet lights in your PC and and I think that you know you've got a lot of stuff that seems unrelated but I think at the end of the day you really only got like a couple of things holding you back and the reason I'm hopeful is because I think you've started to take huge strides in those directions today and at the top of the list is is like understanding what you feel right because here we are I'm asking you questions for like and out and I don't mean to keep on beating you up about this but listen I just tend to be a dick you could tell me to go [ __ ] yourself remember well that'll do that one day angry one day you'll have the courage but I was saying going to you'll have the courage to tell me to go [ __ ] myself but but because I think you you have been incredibly courageous today and you faced a lot of feelings and I think it's hard to know what you feel because you're not used to feeling it it's like new territory for you so I taught my wife I had her play if you heard of this game called deep rock galactic mm-hmm so like I had her played deep rock galactic for the first time a few days ago and I realized she's never played an FPS oh and then I realized like how disorienting it is to play an FPS for the first time she's played games like Mario and like Mario Kart yeah there was like two different and like I just take it for granted that I know how to control an FPS but actually it's really really bizarre to have like character movement that's half keyboard and a half Mouse like that's just strange hmm you know and and so like the in your case I think this is like your first I mean maybe not first but you're new at this like you just don't know how these controls work yet in terms of feeling what you feel understanding your emotions tying things together putting words to how you feel you're new at that system of control and so just give yourself some time and hopefully you'll find a decent therapist who's not an [ __ ] and pushes you out the door after five minutes and and you know be patient with them and let them be patient with you because I think if the only thing that you needed for me is like not my brilliance that doesn't actually help by the way but yeah well all you all you've really needed a space and you're gonna I mean you're a capable of doing the work on your own you just need space and if you can find it I think you're gonna start to feel better about yourself and I really hope so because if I didn't if I couldn't have hope for you then I couldn't do my job like I couldn't do this next yeah how are you feeling now probably relieved yeah takes a while to get there I don't know why I said lighting from five thousand people I think you said because you needed to say it and it needed to come out yeah yes and I think you need to talk more about it maybe not in front of 5,000 people you know four thousand next time [Laughter] but seriously fine find a space to talk about I'm dead serious about that in grid like you know you don't need to be carrying that around all by yourself it's not fair to you and you don't deserve it and you're not burdening anyone by doing that talk about it with my boyfriend oh sure so I think that's good but also your boyfriend is gonna support you in some ways and not be able to support you in other ways too hmm I mean it's it sounds like you have a really good boyfriend y'all have a good relationship yeah he's great that sounds like it sounds like he's a real keeper yeah and and so I think you owe it to yourself and you owe it to him and you owe it to the your relationship to try to help yourself get through some of this stuff so that you guys can do what you guys are actually supposed to do we'll just be happy together hmm and no meditation write it we don't have to suit though I think we've done enough I think we add do anything else so thanks a lot for coming on thanks for having me you're very welcome any last thoughts or questions and you asked a bomb's you want to drop on this before we check out think that's all Ingrid seriously I wish you all the best and I'm really hopeful for you and you know you deserve you deserve to feel better and you deserve to not have to carry this [ __ ] around anymore thank you so deuce about that okay that's right all right take care kid but okay now I'm confused oh [ __ ] all right well hmm give me a second chat dr. K on boomer on boomer boys and girls fixed saved etc oh man yeah so I don't know if you guys know this but you could teach an old boomer new tricks you can unleash the plebs yeah that was a raid boss whoo anyway so we are you know we started late but we're also over time I've got to run so I don't think we're gonna have time for Q&A or anything else dude the raid boss is getting the screams this launched like that's the raid boss see like the problem with like are screams that like it's not it's not like you could clear a bunch of trash mobs and then then it's the it's the raid boss it's like the raid boss is at the very beginning with when the stream actually launches or not and then it's like yeah so listen guys thank you guys very much I think I've got a I just want to share a couple of things which we didn't really get around to so first of all you know I hope that was hopeful for you guys and I think that oh yeah it's so weird I think the most important thing was thing was actually recognizing that nothing we were saying was actually helping like it's really the turning point of that interview for me isn't kind of acknowledging that you could come up with it however many theories you want to and all this other [ __ ] and believe you know everything in them like if it doesn't fit like you gotta trust the person that you're talking to and what I want you guys to do is like trust yourself right because like Ingrid in that moment like you have to trust yourself that these guys don't know what they're [ __ ] talking about because we don't know what the [ __ ] I'm talking about because we don't have the whole story and that's not her fault necessarily because you know it's just trust in yourself and trust in the way that you feel and if people you know if you feel something about yourself then then oddly enough even if it's depression or something like that even if it's negative if you're suicidal or you know whatever like you can have feelings and trust in those feelings doesn't mean you have to act on them in fact you shouldn't especially if you're I think you might hurt yourself but like understand that that's coming from a very authentic place and that you have to like accept that and recognize that that pain is real what the pain translates to in your mind is not real but the pain itself is real right that feeling of like and I hope you guys caught this when I was sort of saying that she has like this belief about herself that like the low thing like if you go back I don't know maybe like 40 or 45 minutes ago or an hour ago like what we were getting from her is a sense of like self loathing and that absolutely comes after a sexual assault which is what happened to her right like that sort of makes sense if we were sniffing it but we just don't know where it comes from and so if you have something that you feel about yourself recognize that that comes from a place too but then like that doesn't have to own you right that doesn't have to be fact it doesn't have to be true you can you can like let go of that but you have to figure out where it comes from and then like heal that so anyway I really hope that she does okay and she gets some decent help so a couple of things just to let you guys know so first of all thank you very much for all of the support and then we're gonna have actually a good friend of mine this guy named will sue who is an expert in psychic let's seize a psychiatrist and he's gonna be on on Friday to talk about psychedelics because I know that we've got a lot of interest in that he's part of the psychedelic support network also you know don't crucify him for this but it is also on TV and some Netflix things and and a couple of things like that so he's a great big proponent of the use of psychedelics medically and non-medically so hopefully he'll be on and we'll talk a little bit about that I think he's also offered to I think do a Q&A on our discord maybe after the stream so we may try to set that up for Friday and Friday is gonna kick off we're doing a whole thing for Mental Health Awareness Month so may is mental health awareness month so starting on Friday we're going to talk to will and we're also gonna be doing some fundraising for our coaching programs so we'd like to help people like Ingrid and other people who have bad experiences with psychiatrists where we can't treat medical problems but we can definitely you know try to support people teach them how to meditate help them understand Vedic psychology things like that help them understand their ego and so we're gonna be doing some fundraising with some various goals along the way and yeah so like for example if we're hitting our goal I think we're gonna try to raise $75,000 maybe and if we hit that you know we're gonna have various goals and you guys can decide like what we do so options for like stretch goals include me I hope I can say this can I say this hold on let me figure this out and I talked about [Music] okay so yeah so like it involves gaming streams but then also tears again so this gaming stream there's gaming stream with dr. K being hopeful and positive and then there's also gaming stream with me doing an Indian accent and trolling people and then there's also a gaming stream with me being doing an Indian accent and and being toxic as all hell and using my powers to destroy people's like psyches instead of rebuilding them and so we'll just see like how toxin can we get let that inner troll all the way out and so we may also do like some like some cue it like marathon kind of streams with like QA and stuff like that we're still trying to sort out exactly what our what our various donation benchmarks are and then you know if we hit our end goal maybe that should be the end goal I don't know you guys decide what the end goal is but other options are gonna be like content that's determined by the community so you guys give me a topic and I'll produce a series of webinars or YouTube lectures or whatever like on whatever you guys want if that's dating and talking to women that's fine if it's like understanding procrastination better that's fine if it's understanding trauma or like meditation you guys pick the topics and I'll do it and yeah so we're gonna start so this is gonna be for the month of May for mental health awareness month yeah and so we have a highlights channel too for those of you guys so that's gonna be a long interview people have said that they want the whole damn thing so fine so that's gonna be like a two-hour upload to YouTube but we have a second channel where we try to clip some of the more piecemeal chunks and yeah so that's that's what we're gonna be shooting for so all throughout the month of May I think we're gonna do a lot of cool stuff on stream and that's what we're shooting for and I think we're gonna rave so we're gonna do oh yeah so so oh god cosplay you've got to be kidding me Moses so give ideas and discord about what you want is what I've been told and we're gonna raid let's raid Mitch you guys got to be kidding if I talked to a person with BPD yet yeah buddy I've talked to several of them I just don't know if they actually have BPD but take care guys we'll see y'all hopefully on Wednesday and hopefully on time with like my Nvidia drivers working that's what I get for trying to update my drivers Fogg take care [Music]

Channel: HealthyGamerGG

Views: 331,162

Keywords: mental health, drk, dr kanojia, healthygamergg, healthy gamer gg, psychiatrist, body dysmorphia, body dysmorphia explained, body dysmorphia interview, body dysmorphic disorder

Id: t_TJ9sb2zmw

Length: 144min 8sec (8648 seconds)

Published: Tue Apr 28 2020