The Mystical Teaching of St. John of the Cross

St John of the Cross is one of the most powerfully beautiful yet often misunderstood spiritual writers in the history of the church he's one of those rare people that the more you read him the more you realize you have a lot more to understand so we're going to peel back the onion a bit more on the teaching of this mystical doctor in the art of Catholic today because he reached the heights of Union with God and he has an immense amount to teach us welcome to the program I'm Matthew Leonard my guest today is someone I believe to be one of the Premier modern voices in authentic Catholic spirituality father Donald Haggerty he's an expert on prayer and has a deep love of the mystical Theology and teaching of Saint John of the Cross father Hagerty is a priest of the Archdiocese of New York he serves at St Patrick's Cathedral he taught moral Theology and worked as a spiritual director in seminaries for 20 years he's the author of a number of books such as contemplative hunger and contemplative enigmas and his latest Title St John of the Cross master of contemplation is absolutely phenomenal I love this book it is deep in my own in love of John of the Cross and has helped me fall even more in love with Jesus Christ and his church which after all is the goal so it is my privilege to have this discussion with him father Hagerty welcome to the art of Catholic thank you so much Matthews that was very nice your introduction thank you but you and I have never met in person but I want you to know you've had a profound effect on me and my understanding of Saint John of the Cross he's been near and dear to my heart for a long time and he's very much at the heart of the talks that I give around the country and things that I teach in the science of sainthood and I have to say that your latest book is the best that I've ever read on him in fact I haven't even I haven't even finished it yet because I have so many notes inside of this thing I can't get through it so you've done an incredible uh service to the church I think in taking what's oftentimes complicated and deep teaching and you've made it very accessible and I'm curious um how it is that you kind of got into this I mean not not everyone falls in love with the spiritual life in the same way that you have but how did you discover John of the Cross and fall in love with his teachings well that goes back to my time um actually before the Seminary and then I I entered uh the missionary charity fathers Mother Teresa's order uh when it was just beginning in 1984 and one of the priests who joined at that time and he was my initial uh Superior was a priest from Spain who had studied in Toledo and loved Saint John of the cross in fact he said his spiritual director of the Seminary did not allow his men to read further in John of the Cross until he they had permission from one section to another so of course I was curious fascinated and then uh a great uh providential thing was in my first year in the Seminary at that time I asked one of the professors who had been the Rector of the Seminary back in the 1960s into the 70s I asked him if he would do a private study with me for credit on Pope John Paul II's dissertation Faith according to Saint John of the Cross which had been published by Ignatius press and there it is there is some reason too and I uh read through that work with this very great Monsignor Montano and most of that work uh three quarters of that is on a small section of Saint John of the cross is the beginning of his the second book of uh the ascent of Mount Carmel nine chapters or so it's not too long but it's a very concentrated treatment on the importance of the theological virtue of faith on the intellect and how it affects contemplation so that got me hooked and at that point then I had my copy of Saint John of the Cross and began the underlining that even to this day continues in my genre of the Cross collected works yeah that's beautiful in fact why don't we do this when we said a little bit of context as we move into move into this discussion of him give us a little bit of a biographical sketch of the mystical doctor because a lot of people have heard bits and pieces maybe they've heard of The Dark Knight of the Soul or whatever but they don't really know who he is so give us a little bit of background if you would okay his dates are 1542 to 1591 and as your listeners viewers know that that was right in the middle of of the Protestant Reformation in fact his he was born just before the beginning of the Council of Trent and he grew up uh poor his father died when he was young uh and apparently you know a beautiful uh Beginnings uh and he joined the Carmelite Order after working with Jesuits in a hospital and then at the time of his ordination in 1567 at 25 years old Teresa of Avila centuries of Avila had already started the con the Carmelite reform five years earlier and he went to see her weeks after his ordination and then she he was about to become a carthusian at that point so clearly he already had you know serious depth in his interior life and spirituality's prayer he was going to shift over to the carthusians you know the Great contemplative order of man monastic order and Teresa valvela convinced him no try to or I want to do a reform also of the men's branch of the carmelites so he took up her offer and with another priest very shortly after they began the men's uh reform of their Carmelite Order and what's interesting he had 10 more or less quiet years he was five years a Confessor in the famous Convent of incarnation in Avila and then at that point 10 years into his priesthood he was kidnapped by his own calcid order because of you could think resentment toward the reform at that point and he spent nine months very significant in his life nine months imprisoned in what was a converted closet in the monastery of the of the carmelites and in Toledo and then he escaped after those nine months the understanding is that he composed his famous poem the spiritual Canticle during those nine months he was in a closet there which had only a slit of light up on the top of the wall so he was mostly in in darkness literal Darkness for that time and he had no pen or paper he had these verses memorized and he lived what we would say his own Dark Night of the soul in that time he came out escaped and then he became the great Saint John of the Cross he actually only wrote his commentary on that some years later it's significant that he wrote the great for treatises only in the last seven years of his life which to me is very striking the you know it's it's a fairly thick book you know the four treatises is collected works and you know without computers without being able to probably rewrite things it's an amazing uh uh body of work that he put together then at the request then of his Carmelite Sisters for more teaching on contemplation speaking of contemplation let's kind of get into why John is so important because when we're talking about John lacrosse we're talking about the movement of our soul toward God and and prayer is obviously at the heart of that movement and as Catholics you know we know a lot of prayers but maybe we haven't ever moved deeply into conversation with god can you elaborate just for a second as a pastor as a former spiritual as a spiritual director I mean why is deeper prayer so vitally important for Catholics well I think it's a it's just a Law of Spiritual life that the depth of our prayer life you know the purity of our desire for God if it carves greater depth into our inner Spirit that's always going to overflow and radiate into our activity and even in kind of quiet influence that we may have on others you know we hear Jesus saying a number of times in in John's gospel asking us to bear fruit if you abide in me and I abide in you you will bear much fruit and really the life of prayer is the key to that and I mean it's been often a criticism in our own time that the activist you know Spirit of you know being very active maybe working 24 hours a day even as a religious or a priest not that anybody does that but that that's going to be you know then the external fruits of our life but John of the Cross is very insistent I think all the saints would say and agree you have to have a serious life of Prayer you know seeking striving for Union with God and then he uses you know the person much more uh effectively in the world no I said Luke 10 you know Mary and Martha's story and Martha being anxious and Mary has chosen the one thing necessary that interior relationship with our Lord it has to be active contemplation is it should be called contemplative action I think we should move into prayer first and then everything flows out of that but what are some of the obstacles that you have found in your role as a priest and spiritual director common obstacles that would prevent people from moving into deeper prayer and I know John talks about this and you mention this in your book as well well I think it's sometimes it's a a need for everyone to uh to choose and to choose quiet time that we have to and many people will say I'm too busy too busy for life is uh hectic and overwhelming um but I think we have to choose and depends on one's uh state of life if you have young children at home well children take a nap also sometimes or you know sometimes you get up earlier and sometimes I tell this story that when I was a priest I was close then to Mother Teresa's sisters and new Mother Teresa and in the years when she was alive and one time when I was studying in Rome moral Theology and my you know preparing to be a seminary professor some of us who knew Mother Teresa asked her some priests we asked her if she would give a little talk for us so she was gracious enough to give this talk to about eight of us I believe maybe ten and during that talk she had a sense of humor but she said in a kind of serious way she said I think the biggest problem in the priesthood is that the priests stay up too late watching TV and they don't get up in the morning to pray and if someone's essential to get up early in the morning to pray so you know some of these things are choices and then you know there are other obstacles you know I think there's a serious obstacle which I've written in other books you know the technological distractions that now um you know are of our time that kind of obsessive turning to the cell phone and information and you know feeding off these things that does have a deleterious effect perhaps on a more recollected quiet in our lives well I think that's the key isn't it how in the world can you possibly recollect yourself when you've got all this garbage you know it's bouncing around inside of your head and Teresa of Avila talks about this to the point where she says it becomes a venial sin if you continue to do these things knowing that you're interrupting your time of prayer because you're making an act of the will to choose something other than God even though you know it's has a deleterious effect on your on your time in prayer so right it's an act of the will we have to make a decision that we're going to do this and I think that one of the things that we don't realize as Catholics that we're literally made to pray like this is we're created to be in this Union with God and prayer is the way that we achieve this Union obviously based on the sacraments as well but you can't say you have a relationship with the Lord if you don't set this time aside to pray because you know if I if I show if I treated my wife the way that I used to treat my relationship with the Lord we wouldn't have a very good marriage you know because there would be no communication so we have to make an act of the will um you know you the subtitle of your book um is master of contemplation and there's a lot of call it bad information floating around out there in the Catholic World about what contemplation is and and we have vocal meditative and contemplative prayer and John is obviously a master of this is there a way to describe contemplative prayer for people in a way that they can kind of sink their teeth into it's actually Matthew a that's a more difficult question than uh it was a trick question I knew I kind of set you up there but I was looking for some help from you because you're the expert on John Lacross and so I always have difficulty in kind of describing this because you see John calls it the fragrance of God and and there's all these kinds of kind of um vague descriptions of the Saints why is that yeah I think because uh you know the strict meaning of contemplation will be a Grace that's given to the soul you know with a certain advancement in spiritual life and then that affects the interior life of Prayer and John lacrosse will have a lot of pages you know speaking of the transitional time when you are praying in a more ordinary fashion you might be praying for years in a dedicated manner but it's still a more ordinary approach to prayer with meditation with some reflection you know perhaps seeking emotional satisfactions in prayer wanting to feel close to God you know many things that are of the natural level you know Grace but the movement into a an advancement in grace to contemplation is a opening of God to communicate himself more to the Soul at a certain point and and I think the um the reality of this is you know we should all be conscious we want more of God and if we realize that God is very personal he's very personal so if we pray before a tabernacle we're not praying before just a sacred place there or you know where he is you know concealed behind the doors of that Tabernacle or there you know under the appearance of a host and a monstrance but the real person is there so the desire of all of us is really to come to have a more unique you know real contact and encounter communication with this reality of Our Lord the Paradox of this is that it may we may enter into a greater sense of Mystery the more that we enter or get you know draw closer respond receptively to our Lord the greater mystery takes over prayer so you know just as an introductory you know statement there that's it's not a question so much of vagueness that you know that we say well you're not really answering the quote what is contemplation let's have a definition but you know John of the Cross will say this is an interior experience in prayer that because God is Ultimate mystery even in love and desire for us that some of that experience will not be able to have um be nailed down in very you know clear language on the other hand a person will say yes I have there's something more of God in my life now more than ever yeah and it's not uh when we talk about an experience it doesn't necessarily mean it's going to overflow into some kind of sensory experience and I think this is where a lot of people get lost when trying to figure out what contemplation is because the reason why the Saints have such a difficulty at times to express this mystery that's taking place is because what's happening is our own deification and divinization which is something that frankly goes beyond the boundaries of human language you can't really describe what's happening when God is infusing himself into you in this infused contemplation it's nothing we can make happen which I think is one of the big confusions that's out there today there are a lot of different modern people teaching you know that you can kind of Center down or say some mantras or whatever and all of a sudden you've entered into contemplation contemplation is all God I mean we have a job to get ready for it through vocal and meditative prayer and living the life of virtue uh but only he can do it to us and that's that mysterious experience of him and as you kind of alluded to uh implicitly this mystery moves us into not uh a deeper necessarily sensory experience of him but more kind of into darkness and this is a theme that you see play out and you mentioned uh John Paul II's dissertation on faith and he deals a great deal with this as moving into darkness even as the virtue of faith is growing we sometimes feel this as a Darkness why is Darkness such a powerful uh symbol for John lacrosse will the darkness saw especially in the in the intellects ex experience of prayer may uh intensify in a certain manner you know as our as our prayer advances you know all the time if we give ourselves more fully to God and you know it's one thing I think we all are satisfied when you know if we have a new a new insight or some reflection you know it makes some connection between things or we see something new in the gospel we haven't seen before but John lacrosse is going to teach that and he's rooting his teaching in Saint Thomas Aquinas that the theological virtue of faith actually unites the intellect to God himself and so that's a profound thing that the the intellect which you know only has limited capacity in its natural uh you know reality as a faculty is going to be overcome with certain obscurity as we go forward uh in our self-giving to God and you know the result is I mean there's a great statement of John of the Cross is that as Faith increases certitude increases for the certitude of being in the presence of Our Lord the presence of all Lord in a chapel in front of a tabernacle certitude increases but Clarity does not increase rather a kind of obscure silencing of the intellect will occur more so it's not as though you know you get I think that he's not saying that you get overwhelmed by Shadows well you turn the lights off but there's a silencing kind of tying up of the intellect so that it doesn't flow out you know in in thoughts that we might think that might that would be happening if we grow closer to God we'll have more inspirations and in fact it may not be the case that dark theater to certitude you're you're kind of referencing always reminds you of Jesus on the cross and it wasn't like he didn't know he was God there's darkness that Overfelt literally the land as he's hanging on the cross and he cries out Psalm 22 my God my God why has Thou forsaken me and as a Protestant growing up I was taught you know you look at that as God as kind of abandoning his son on the cross and that's not it at all and it's a tada Solomon you read through the the bottom of the psalmud he's quoting from the cross you see he knows exactly what's going to happen he knows he's going to be saved and he knows this is going to save the human race and so as we move deeper into the spiritual life while we might experience that kind of Darkness of mystery and the Luminous Darkness as John would would kind of call it at the same time those virtues those theological virtues are growing in strength and we are more united to God and there's a beautiful [Music] um analogy that John uses when he talks about this darkness that we experience at times because it to your point you know in the beginning we might have these experiences of God's spiritual consolations and such when we're in prayer and these are kind of like little pieces of candy that God gives us to can you know help us to continue to move and so that we don't focus on those you come to that night of sense or the passive purification of the senses when you start to experience dryness and it feels like God is pulling away and John says no no that's not what's happening he's actually gotten closer to you and it's like looking at the sun it's so bright that it blinds you right and and it's the same thing with God he's gotten closer to you as he's uniting himself to you but you can't see him yet your spiritual senses haven't been attuned yet to sense the closeness of his presence that's the way we have kind of have to look at this partly so that we don't get discouraged as we continue to try and plow through at times our life of prayer or even the catechism calls prayer you know a battle at times and so we need to be encouraged that even we don't feel the presence of the Lord he is there and and closer than we even realize and so um The Darkness thing I think can be confusing to people but I I think that um the more we understand that God is mystery and is an infinite mystery and that we are made to be unified with him I think it's an encouraging thing to move forward uh in the life of Prayer and I want to go back to something because you said when I asked you kind of uh unfairly what is contemplation uh knowing it's a really difficult question to ask or answer you made mention of how we need to uh you know kind of prepare ourselves and I think that this is where asceticism uh comes into play and asceticism is such a has such a necessary role in our spiritual maturation so can you tell people what asceticism is and then explain why it plays such an important role in preparing us to move more deeply into God's presence well aestheticism in a you know in a more traditional understanding in the history of the church there are that really began strongly I guess with the desert fathers in the 300s 400s and they lived harsh ascetical lives you know eating very little living in the deserts of Syria and Egypt and asceticism remained in the church then as a you know fasting self-denials Comforts reduced you know sometimes sleep limited all these physical bodily you know aspects of mortification but the real heart of asceticism is Saint John of the Cross will teach is this effort not to indulge not to seek our own self-satisfaction and naturally you know there there are as John of the Cross will mention and acknowledge there are Pleasures you know if you eat it if you eat a meal you know you're going to have a certain satisfaction in that probably the men in the deserts you know had had satisfactions we're told that John the Baptist you know ate his locusts but he also had had honey there in the in the desert so there are satisfactions that key in spiritual life and it gets into the interior life also a prayer is not to go you know chasing after our own satisfaction our own indulgent satisfactions and that doesn't mean you know necessarily grave sin or that but that's also what you know serious sensual sin is but even in the smaller things not to you know simply choose what we prefer all the time you know not to uh indulge and not to be a complaining person you know in regard to the things that you know what's put down on the table or you know this kind of placing those things at a very secondary level of life and it can be certainly good practices I think getting up at the same time you know more or less every morning for the sake of more prayer is a type of asceticism in that you know turning the phone off was you know not only checking things when when needed not to be you know obsessive with that that's the type of asceticism you know not watching TV you know excessively these types of uh things that are not physical bodily modifications but do affect the interior spirit are you looking for authentic Catholic spiritual formation that will give serious direction to your relationship with God the science of sainthood is an online teaching platform that offers step-by-step Beautiful video courses on prayer and the interior life based on spiritual giants like Saints Augustine John of the Cross Teresa of Avila and many others it will set your heart on fire and while you'll certainly learn this isn't school there are no tests there are no papers this is solid Dynamic spiritual formation at your pace we offer individual courses as well as full memberships with access to 20 incredible series and Counting want to study with a group we can set you up interested in a parish membership we have that too you've never seen anything like this until now go to scienceofsainhood.com and experience a totally free course to see with thousands of Catholics have already discovered scienceofsainthood.com come more than education this is transformation I think one of the difficult things father is for I mean we can read the desert fathers and we can read John on the cross and Theresa and others and obviously for the most part they're writing for people like them and John lacrosse is writing for religious Teresa's writings you could say were in you know laity or or are part of that audience as well but I think the hard part for a lot of us is how do we figure out where that Detachment line is in the midst of trying to live you know in our state in life uh it's it's a difficult thing to discover and maybe it's something that changes and deepens over time but do you have any advice with regard to that well I think it's it's difficult depending on our state of life and I think the the effort should be to be self-forgetful you know if you're married you try as best as you can to be uh attentive sensitive to what your spouse desires and you know if two people live in that manner together that's great but I think I think John lacrosse's Key understanding is we need to take attention off of self so asceticism is a part of that package and you know and in some ways it's very contrary to uh living in the world you know you can't really not think of self sometimes in in uh in your profession your work you know your concern for your family these things do involve the self but to try to put a lot of things in the hands of God humbly John of the Cross has a great aphorism when he says uh he who he is humble who hides himself in nothingness and abandons all things to God so part of asceticism is to open us to that humility to hide in our nothingness that we're not you know taking we're not reaching for our own satisfactions all the time or seeking them and leave it with God which unites us to you know to God in the sense that when you die to self uh and you stop looking at your own needs that necessarily means you're putting the needs of other people before yours and so you're you're doing exactly what it is that Jesus did on the cross and so asceticism and our penances uh become acts of love that move our will uh more toward God and I you you talk about it in in master of contemplation how that thing that unites us to God is our will it's the unit of Faculty so to speak in the soul that unites us to him so the more that we are detaching ourselves from our own self-will the more we're going to be attached to the will of God and we're going to fulfill the the admonition to love God and love neighbor and so all this works together to to unite us to almighty God I mean that's really true Matthew and the you know sometimes people ask uh you know sisters of Mother Teresa somebody else can Retreat you know what's the primary you know condition for a growth in in prayer and advancing in prayer even to contemplative prayer and it's not a question of method than in one's prayer and there's a lot of you know in a sense uh deceptive literature about that if I choose this method centering prayer I can become a contemplative the real reality of contemplative prayer depends on our giving our will generously to the will of God and you know in some ways that's a general statement you know you give your will to the vocation of marriage in your case or as a priest in my case but even the more that gets down to the small things you know to try to please God in what we do I always like this uh there was a letter of Saint Teresa of Avila at one time when she writes to her Carmelite Sisters and she begins this phrase perhaps we do not know what love is it's kind of striking that she would say that to Carmelite Sisters perhaps we do not know what love is for love does not depend on our feelings but on our determination to please God in all things and that's really the condition for growth and prayer and contemplative life you know if we can begin to you know not obsessively but desire to please God in our in our choices sacrificially you know there's nobody who grew spiritually in a great way wasn't very sacrificial in their life there's no way to do that and some of that we've dropped out of I think the perspective you know maybe in serious spiritual circles it's understood but that dropped out of the church even you know the importance of sacrifice it it killed religious life in many cases when that was lost you know someone might be asking themselves well how can I move my will more towards God how can I die to self you know practically speaking and this kind of goes back to what it is that you were talking about before with regard to uh really detaching ourselves and one of the phrases that you bring up uh in your book is mental austerity and I must have I don't know how many times I underline this that really just kind of jumped off the page to me because and for people who aren't familiar with the kind of the basics of this you I always describe the human soul as kind of an upstairs and a downstairs and downstairs you have your senses and and appetites and emotions and things and upstairs in your soul are the intellect and the will that's very basic but uh the will is what we need to unite us to God that's where love resides and love is an act of the will but the intellect is the other side and the way that you get your will to turn more toward God is to focus on what are those things that you're intellect is attaching itself to and when you talk about mental austerity that is the way that you kind of purge the intellect of this world can you give us you know elaborate a little bit of mental austerity and why it's so important well one of the you know the key realities there of the importance of intellect and spiritual life not that we are thinking inspired thoughts all the time or you know that we have only saintly you know inspiration but that you know the it's a kind of a law of Saint Thomas Aquinas what your intellect is attracted to what we find of Interest attracted to what we value what we're attracted to causes desire and the will so that law is affecting us all the time the Will's initial operation is to in a sense be leaning in inclination and desire but that's conditioned by what do we find attractive so mental austerity has a has a you know a very significant uh task there to try not to be at the mercy of you know just whatever comes into our mind and then we dwell on it and we run you know in that direction to be obsessed with things now especially if online you know it gets consumed with thoughts about self I remember a missionary charity she's still alive over 100 years old now Sister Frederick and she was one of the counselors you know for many years to Mother Teresa and I remember in a talk in Rome I was talking about thing you know spiritual things and then she said father with all the technology they have invented in the world now I wish they could invent a tape recorder that you could attach to your head somehow put the cords inside your ear and that could tape all the thoughts that you have in one day and then you could play that tape recorder back and you would see that he says that that would cure many people of not cure but it would put you on the right path to realize you got to do something we have to do something about you know the manner in which our thoughts are just racing all over and and you know the desert we talked about just a moment ago the desert monks the desert monks had that experience of the mind wandering and they are the ones who invented the Jesus prayer Lord Jesus Christ Son of God have mercy on me a sinner and they prayed it repetitively in repetition as an ejaculation precisely to hold the Mind anchored you know on a good thought that rooted them in a state of recollection so I would recommend you know things like that when you when we're on the subway or traveling in the car and Quiet Moments instead of noise all the time that we you know pray in ejaculation or pray Hail Mary's and that's a type of mental austerity yeah I mean Saint Paul says that we're supposed to pray constantly in first Thessalonians and in Gregory of non-ziance says You must remember God more often than you draw breath that's the way to do it a mental austerity and kind of purging the the world uh or being so detached to it that it consumes your thought process because what we have to do is really John talks about making space essentially for God in your life that's what happens when you are kind of detaching your intellect from all these different things and it doesn't mean you don't operate in the world based on your state in life it means that you're not enslaved to these things and so focused upon them that you can't have any room there for God and I think that once you move more deeply into the spiritual life you realize that there's a ripple effect to recollection and this mental austerity so that you start to view the things of this world as either a hindrance or a benefit to that time that you're going to enter into active prayer with our Lord that's the you know a lot of the value of the mental austerity just kind of gets the world out of the way because our prayer life needs to be outward and upward and not interiorly focused on ourselves as sister was referencing with the tape recorder on your brain I mean if we did that we would show how narcissistic we are as well it really is about us and prayer is what gets us out of the way so that we can get our eyes on God and other people um you know kind of go do you want to say some father I was gonna say it's very well said and you know part of that you know could be a comment that you know many people live virtuously they're not they're not committing great sins they're very good people but you know John lacrosse and these these Karma lights it's not just Karma like spirituality they're teaching us as the gospel teaches take care of the Interior life because you can have a virtuous life and be very concerned with self you know all of us go through periods of time when we need to correct that and leave the self up aside and get out you know into to others and get out to God so that's the key yeah and it's not just a matter of detaching yourself from sinful things right even if something is good in and of itself uh we can't be attached to it more than we are toward God and you know correct me if I'm wrong but this is kind of where you know John goes in his uh kind of famous or inFAMOUS depending on how you look at it NADA teaching or nothing uh in the ascent of Mount Carmel I think lots of times he gets a bad rap because people don't really understand what he's talking about is this where he's going with that is it really just a matter of proper ordering of things so that we can live our life in Union with God yeah I mean when John lacrosse speaks of you know coveting you know and he has a very strong statement when you covet something you know you weary the soul you you know you're lifting yourself towards something that turns out to be in a sense of disappointment it's not God and you know it's true I mean as an ideal John of the Cross is is proposing the ultimate you know gift of self but it's good to be challenged by that that great demand to place ultimately God you know as the the primary pursuit in our life and then everything else you know Falls in place behind that um so it's a it's a it's an aspect of perspective you know what's most important the one thing needs right and really all John is is telling us to do is exactly what Christ told us to do you know we abandon ourselves to to the Lord and that's that's really at the heart of what John is saying and but you know lots of times we we read him and we're like I can never do that and there's a sense in which that's true we can't right on our own anyway and that's where the life of Grace comes into play we don't want to think about you know to take John is telling us we have to pull ourselves up by our own spiritual bootstraps we're just not capable of doing that we need the grace of almighty God to carry us along essentially and that's why you have to have that life of the of asceticism you have to open yourself up to those actual Graces that God wants to give you and of course get The sacramental Graces flowing as much as you possibly can as well when you have those working together you can do what it is that John is teaching in fact it's what we're designed to do and yes we have to overcome the Obstacle of original sin but this is why we were made we were made for Union with God and John of the Cross is saying guys this is how you do it you detach from the world and you attach yourself to Jesus Christ and at the end of the day that is what it's all about and our battle is trying to work it out in fear and tremble Lane and and doing what we can through the grace of God but we have to have confidence as well that we can do it uh because of Jesus Christ I mean in some ways uh you know I'm sure we've all met people maybe we have our own experience you know people who start jogging start uh exercising who have not maybe been doing much for a while and at first you know that's very painful you know just to get out there and do that but some of those people end up you know a month one month later two months a year later and they won't give up their day of running or they they're they're steady they're six days a week running the spiritual life has a lot of parallels to that that once you get a taste of God and of the beauty of Silent you know solitary time with him you know the beauty of a Tabernacle in quiet and in silence you know once you get the taste I think then Jesus statement in the gospel really comes alive where your treasure is there will your heart be also and it comes alive then and then without trying I think a lot of other things become affected in life that we we end up with our eyes more attentive to what's outside Us in generosity rather than you know taken up with anxious thoughts about self you make a great point in the sense that um when someone starts off in the spiritual life you don't just jump into the deep end this is something you work into uh let's say gradually but you have to start I always say that when you're getting started if you've never had a life of prayer you start with that 10 to 15 minutes of time and it is really difficult to get through that time but as time goes by and I didn't believe this when I first read it in the Saints but as that time goes by it starts whipping and you you're like wow 20 30 40 you know minutes have gone by an hour and you're like where did the time go and it's because again we're made for this and the more you do it the more you see that this is really what your life is ordered to and you want this you you desire this relationship with God and begin to thirst for him because you were made for him by him and for him and when you get that taste uh you know it does change everything the the cave yacht we always have to remind people of is that yes you're going to have these tastes and in the beginning that might even include these spiritual consolations but then there's going to come this point in time when dryness begins to take root and and God is starting to teach you to grow up and seek him for his own sake instead of what it is you feel interiorly and that's where a lot of people I think go off the rails but this is why John of the Cross is so brilliant he explains what exactly is taking place in your life and why you need to continue to progress and how uh to to progress and this is one of the things that I think that your book uh master of contemplation does so beautifully it tells us what's coming like this is what you do here's what's going to happen and here's what you do next and it's just a it's a brilliant work father and it's really opened my eyes in a big way as to um an even deeper way and I've read John of the Cross you know multiple times and I've read lots of different books your book really is the best one I've read and I would really encourage people to to get it and and begin to move through and move through it prayerfully don't this is not a book you rush through uh because the spiritual life isn't something that you rush through this is a daily growing uh in relationship and John shows us how to do this so powerfully so you know I want to I want to thank you very much for taking the time but I have one last question for you I'm curious about something you're the you are at St Patrick's Cathedral in in downtown New York it occurred to me yesterday when I was thinking about this interview I wonder what father Haggerty would say I you know if if someone told you look father you got one last homily this is it you get to stand up in front of everybody what would you leave them with but what would you want people to to remember as you then moved on I mean I would definitely talk about Jesus Christ and maybe something in the gospel so strongly but I think Jesus and Mary you know one thing that you know you're talking about there at the end also you know there are misperceptions that we can all have about what it means to grow spiritually and John lacrosse is a great teacher in that but one of the things I think that is so important in all of this discussion is that Jesus himself needs to become more and more real personal alive for us and one of the ways that happens is turning to the gospel every day in private prayer so we don't just jump into the water of contemplation but we we go to the gospel every day I mean I know I I want to hear the words of Jesus every day privately not just you know read from the gospel at Mass and to take some phrases some personal words of him and allow him you know as deeply as possible to speak that personally to my own heart and soul and you know I think that that communication allow Mary to be a very real person Jesus himself and we pass through actually we met we are meant to pass through the wounds of Jesus and the crucifixion into this mystery of Divine love Infinite Divine love so I think you know centering our lives on Jesus his words his reality you know is the that's the key to spiritual life if we love him John of the Cross has that great phrase at the evening of Life at the end of life at the evening of Life you'll be examined in love learn then to love as God desires to be love and abandon your own ways of acting love is always love for a person in this case you know Jesus Christ no he says I am the way the truth and the life no man comes unto the father but by me everything we do in the Catholic life is always ordered to Jesus Christ at the end of the day um and I lied because I I just thought of another question I really want you to answer when you talk about reading the gospels on a daily basis as part of your time in prayer how do you practically speaking one of the things that happens let me back up a second one of the things that happens in contemplation is you stop so to speak meditating as much so you're not you know reading and studying and reflecting as much it moves into a kind of being with uh almighty God where you're just you know kind of in a loving communion and that doesn't involve as much activity when you move into that state of Prayer and it's a more simplified just kind of movement of Love uh toward the lord and you just want to be with him [Music] um how do you practically speaking work your spiritual reading of scripture into that that uh prayer time or do you do it separately well I think it's always a good point of departure to turn you know open up the gospel first so that there's a bridge in a way between our Lord and and ourselves and you know we can walk across that bridge he can walk across that bridge you know to us but I think I think it's it's like if you're praying in front of the Blessed Sacrament we're aware you know of having walked into a chapel or a church we're aware that I've now placed myself before him so initial acts of that nature my experience in prayer is that it you know you do have to kind of ignite something initially and that's helpful in prayer and then if Grace is given you know then God can take over more but often it's like you have to light that candle first and then you know things begin to happen then we might begin to be drawn by that light or the warmth or if you use that analogy but you have to light that candle and I don't think it just it doesn't just happen especially if you're in an active life if we're if we were in a Cloister or a monastery perhaps this more you know more inclusive you know recollection if we're never never talking to anybody and I know if I have Retreats where it's all quiet you know you can get into days when it's like that but if you have an active life you probably need I'm sure we need a uh a little bit of settling down placing ourselves in that real personal presence of our Lord and the gospel is very helpful to them this kind of goes back to that Axiom you mentioned previously from Aquinas where the will is kind of a blind faculty it needs someone if we're gonna have our will move toward God we need something to direct it there well the intellect is what does that right it draws the will and so we use our intellect to engage sacred scripture Our will is then drawn to the Lord and we're able to engage him in prayer more deeply yeah I I totally uh second that that well that's good because it's in your book it is called St John of the Cross master of contemplation you can see mine is heavily worn and I assure you that if you get it yours will be too it's published by Ignatius press you can find it there and I will put a link uh to it in my show notes as well in the art of Catholic father thank you so much uh for taking this time I really look forward to this interview and it lived up to all of my expectations I'm a bit of a fanboy of yours and so I I pray that you will continue to write and to teach and to lead people you know through great Saints like Saint John of the Cross to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ well thank you so much Matthew for having me you're you're a very charitable man too I don't think I was well I thought it was great so thank you very much and if you would actually would you please uh give the audience a blessing at the end sure May the blessing of almighty God the father and the Son and the Holy Spirit come down upon you Matthew and all of your viewers and keep you always United to the Heart of Mary and the Heart of Jesus amen amen thank you very much father

Channel: Matthew Leonard

Views: 78,800

Keywords: matthew leonard, next level catholic, art of catholic, catholic

Id: O63snCbLcU8

Length: 52min 39sec (3159 seconds)

Published: Thu Nov 10 2022