The Moral Arguments Around the Israel-Hamas War

the jogan experience but I think you know the terrible truth of the matter is that Wars sometimes have to be fought um in the United States you fought two huge Wars the Revolutionary War and the Civil War in order to deliver yourselves into something resembling freedom in the United Kingdom we had a civil war that lasted uh more than a decade which is what made us a democracy right but that's not really the question right so what I'm saying is that it it what Israel decided and I think they are right is that this and in both in all those Wars I've just mentioned by the way there were huge numbers of Civilian casualties even pre the modern era of bombs falling from um planes there were civilian casualties of course but there's a moral judgment that sometimes has to be made which is that do we go and fight these people or do we allow them to regroup and potentially plot another attack on us and Israel has taken the decision and I think it's probably the right one that we have to go and fight these people just as Britain took the decision that it had to go and fight the Nazis and just as America took the decision that it had to go and fight the slave owners sometimes you have to make a moral judgment and the thing is war is awful but John Stewart Mill a great liberal thinker from the 1800s he made the point that war is an ugly thing but it's not the ugliest thing the lack of patriotic feeling or the lack of a belief that anything is worth a war is worse and I do think we're seeing that in in the West now the this revulsion at War we we are in a very luxurious position in the west especially younger Generations they've never had to fight for anything they've never faced an existential threat from a neighboring Army that wants to destroy both your state and your religion and your people they've never faced that level of threat and and what's more from an army that hides in ordinary streets in crowded communities amongst Ordinary People so there's this kind of luxurious moral m i find in some of the condemnation of Israel coming from young people in Europe who've never had to fight for anything never had to fight to maintain their existence never had to fight against an existential threat to their entire way of life what's more these young people in Europe their great-grandfathers shoved Jews into ovens and then they have the absolute G to say to Israel and to the Jewish State well why do you need your own country they need their own country because of what we did to them 80 years ago so there is this it's not just hypocrisy it's not just double standards it's this kind of um luxurian condemnation coming from people who live in very comfortable peaceful societies who seem to have no understanding that every now and then your Society is confronted with a threat that cannot just be wished away it cannot be peace negotiated away it cannot be diploma away it has to be confronted in the most physical manner imaginable and the consequences of that will always be terrible but sometimes it has to be done and that's the only way to do it the only way to do it is to bomb the places where the civilians are because the bad people are there as well I want and I know what you're saying about the condemnation of Israel and I agree to a certain extent but could you imagine I mean we're in essentially in some sort of a strange conflict with uh drug cartels in Mexico now imagine if that that didn't exist 20 years ago I never heard about it but now we hear about it every day what if 20 years from now it becomes even more intense and what if some drug cartels in a gang sneak across the border and kill a bunch of Americans just because they hate America if we bombed Mexico into the Stone Age do you know how upset people would be if we bombed factories because the cartels had embedded themselves in the factories and we killed tens of thousands of innocent workers who just poor people do you know how upset people would be they'd be very upset it just hasn't happened before so this unique condemnation because we're seeing it we we're seeing the consequences of this and when people look at what's happening to Gaza like how does anybody how does that come back what there's nothing left is just getting obliterated and what does that mean what does that mean for the future what does it mean to the people that live there what what is being done to help them what are you are you is it a death sentence to tens of thousands of people or a million people like what what is going to happen in two three four years what if this keeps going on and on but this is why it's very unfashionable these days to make moral judgments you're not supposed to make a moral judgment you're either supposed to calculate everything according to what its consequences might be or you're supposed to take this very technocratic view of society you're certainly not supposed to judge people's identities and so on so I know it's unfashionable to make moral judgments but sometimes a moral judgment has to be made and I think in relation to the Israel Hamas War the way I see it is that this was an assault on ordinary civilians by a barbaric Army uh the like the the like of which people in the west don't understand and don't have to confront and Israel made the moral judgment that it had to pursue it in the way that it considered best now the thing is you talk about the numbers and a lot of people talk about the numbers and people will often say Israel has now killed more people than Hamas killed on the 7th of October and that's true but this is not just a a numerical equation this is not just something that can be done on an abacus or on a on a pie chart this is bigger than that this is a bigger moral conundrum and there is no moral equivalence in my view between what Hamas did and what Israel is doing because Hamas intentionally killed people on the basis of their race it intentionally stabbed people to death it intentionally threw hand grenades into safety shelters that in which families were hiding it intentionally raped and stripped and murdered women it did it on purpose intimately face to face with knives and guns and bombs because they are Jews right right that's that was a fascistic assault on Israel what Israel is doing and I don't accept the idea that they are purposely targeting civilians or that they kill those a workers on purpose I just don't think that's true and if but so what Israel is doing there is collateral damage to Israel's just pursuit of Hamas and I just don't think there is any serious moral comparison between the intentional murder of Jewish people and the absolutely tragic regrettable deaths of civilians in war as has happened in every war in history they can't be compared so I do think we have to go slightly beyond the numbers beyond the horror of it which we see on our TV screens every day and ask ourselves what is the moral question at stake here does Israel have the right to exist and if so does it have the right to fortify itself against anti-semitic Army that wants to destroy it that's the moral question and then there's a broader moral question for us in the west which is why have so many of our young people in particular and the educated Elites been sucked onto the what I would consider to be the wrong side of this question we used to think that education was the great guard against hysteria and regressive views we used to think that education would deliver people from ignorance deliver them from the prejudices that might have Afflicted our less educated forbears and ancestors but what we've had since 7th of October is very often the most educated people making excuses for the most regressive Army on Earth and so it bra it raises questions for our societies what's happening in in ourmes what's happening in our universities what what's happening amongst our young what's happening on social media that is sucking people into this myopic hatred for Israel why are people like Aaron bushnel burning themselves in the name of Palestine we have to look at what's happening in our society and make a moral judgment there as well as I think having a moral understanding of why Israel thought it had to pursue Hamas in this way there's absolutely no defense of Hamas targeting Jews and killing them no one could say that there's any defense but the idea that killing Innocents in order to get to the bad people is morally Superior you you kind of have to make the Judgment that you care about them less than you care about your people because if you could imagine a scenario where uh a Jewish hospital had Hamas in its basement and they made the decision to bomb the Jewish hospital and kill all the Jews inside of it just to get to the 40 or 50 Hamas guys that are there no one would say that that's okay so if you're saying that these people who have no say in how their culture is run are less valuable in terms of like what what you care about what happens to these people that had nothing to do with it we care about the people in Israel they had nothing they got parachuted in killed and at a rave it's horrifying but it's also horrifying for the people that have zero say in how their society is run they're young and they're women and children and they're getting bombed into Oblivion because where they are is where Hamas is if those were Jews who's fault is that it's it's definitely hamas's fault but but the problem is deciding whose fault doesn't make it feel better for the people that feel it's a moral outrage that you're destroying tens of thousands of innocent lives and who knows how many people are wounded permanently and who knows how many people are displaced their life will never be the same again and it's all happening because the moral decision is that in order to get rid of these bad people you're willing to kill these innocent people that are not us but the truth of the matter is but isn't that true because if they were Drews if they if there was 500 Jews and three Hamas guys who would be cool with killing all those innocent Jews to get to the Hamas people but the what you're saying is uh technically correct but there I can think of no war in history and it is important to talk about the history of conflict yes um I can think of no war in history where there haven't been civilian casualties in Pursuit either of an unjust cause like the pursuit of Saddam Hussein apparently because he was responsible for 9/11 built on lies built on a tissue of misinformation um and hund hundreds of thousands of people died and suffered as a consequence of that so Wars are either for for unjust purposes and civilians die as a consequence or sometimes for just purposes and civilians also die as a consequence so the English Civil War right were were the parliamentarians led by Oliver Cromwell wronged to fight against the royalists and to create the modern idea of democracy because there were civilian casualties I would say no they were not wrong they made the right decision was the Civil War in America wrong I don't think it was I think destroying uh slavery was a great cause and worth the sacrifices that had to be made what I'm saying is that Israel is now facing a similar dilemma that our societies haven't faced for a very long time there hasn't been a war inside the UK unless you count the war with Northern Ireland of course from 1969 to 1994 um for a very long time so Israel is facing a similar dilemma what do we do when we face this existential threat do we defend our right to exist do we fortify ourselves against the siege of these anti-semites against us and they've decided that this is a war that they have to fight I do think the consequences of the war are tragic I do think the unwillingness of um certainly the activist class in the west to a portion any blame to Hamas whatsoever is very very interesting but there's that kind of a straw man cuz there is that but then there's also the the vast majority of people who look at it as a horrific loss of life of innocent people and just to chalk it a off to the horrors of War it's like that's the only way to do it is this the only way to do it to bomb civilians because SAS embeds itself in civilian I don't know I'm not an expert on war tactics but it's not I don't think it's the only way to do it you're right to say that it's if one were just to throw one's hands in the air and say it's War what do you expect that's not a just that's not a good resp that's not a good justification for what's happening but what I'm saying is that beyond the what I'm saying is I think twofold the horrors of War attend every war that's a given every war is horrible and sick making and hellish that's that's a given I think but then there's another issue which is the question of why a war is being fought is it being fought for criminal reasons and wrong reasons and I think there are many examples of that spearheaded both by your country and mine over the past 100 years unjust Wars that led to unjust deaths are there also Wars that are just and that are worth fighting yes the war against Nazism I think was a just War um I think I can think of anti-colonial wars in which it was completely justifiable for people to rise up against British rule or American domination or what whatever else it might be so we do have to make a moral call on what's happening in Israel and Gaza and that does involve rising of above the differences in the numbers killed it does involve Rising above the horrors of war and trying to take a broader view which says do we want Israel to continue existing do we want the Jews to have their own Homeland and do we want them to be safe from the fascistic Menace of a neighboring Army that would like to kill them all and to destroy their state from The River To The Sea that's the question we need to ask ourselves and if question to if our answer to those questions is yes then we do have to accept Israel's right to pursue Hamas and then the blame for the horrors in Gaza has to lie at the feet of Hamas which is with profound cynicism placing itself amongst the people in order to then throw its hands in the air and say look what evil Israel is doing it's killing these people even though they put themselves there for that Express purpose the cynicism of it the horror of it is unimaginable and so I think to put it all on Israel as some people do to say this is just a demonic action by the Jewish state is wrong Hamas Bears profound responsibility both for starting the war both and also for putting gar and civilians In Harm's Way and refusing to pull the plug on the wall which it could do right this minute if it returned the hostages and surrendered to Israel so we do have to look at who is morally responsible for This calamity and I think it's Hamas

Channel: JRE Clips

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Id: Ck9FaJdNMuM

Length: 15min 3sec (903 seconds)

Published: Wed Apr 10 2024