The Living Flame of Love by St. John of the Cross - Stanza 3, Part 1: CarmelCast Episode 54

[Music] thank you praise be Jesus Christ welcome back to carmelcast carmelcast is a production of The Institute of Carmelite studies Publications for more information you can visit our website at icspublications.org and right now we're doing a book study or a read through of the living flame of Love by Saint John of the Cross we're working through this new Study Edition that we recently released written by the late father uh Kieran Kavanaugh it's really an actually an excellent walk through this work of Saint John of the Cross and today we're going to continue where we left off from the last episode and we're going to start uh stanza three so we're going to read through and discuss the first half of stanza 3. and I'm brother John Mary of Jesus crucified and I'm joined today by father Michael Joseph of Saint Therese hello hello how are you doing very well very good good all right so stanza three um this is a a difficult stanza I think and John acknowledges that right at the beginning this this first paragraph he makes this this big point of asking God for help because he says this is a difficult stanza to understand so hopefully we're asking for the the grace of the Holy Spirit too to help us to to even just discuss this yes exactly and hopefully even if we haven't maybe experienced everything that the stanza talks about we can get some sense of what John means and and what can help Enlighten our own experience whatever that has been Enlighten is a good word to use there yeah because right off that's that's what the beginning of the stanza is about is about light the first the first line of the poem there olamisa fire um right away we get into this idea of of light yeah and the light is something living in a way too it's it's not just light like that we have the you know just illumines things but there's something almost substantial to This Light to these lamparas that enable it's it's not just giving you know Clarity in a sense but it's it's something that's enabling um you to participate in God in a very unique way yeah it's helpful for me to to think back and remember that what John means by lamps is very different than what what I understand a lamp to be I think of just like a desk lamp that's sitting there um and and or like even like today most of our a lot of our lamps are LED lamps and that's very different than what John's talking about because we don't usually associate fire with a lamp unless something is going like terribly wrong um and for John the a lamp would have been you know a gas lamp probably so it would have had a flame or an oil lamp or an oral yeah an oil lamp sorry yeah and so it would have had a live flame um and so Flames would necessarily be associated with lamps and connected to that is uh for us lamps are like a desk lamp are usually not essential uh to seeing um but in his time at night or or in a dark room it would be the only way to see they couldn't have pulled out their their you know their phone or they wouldn't have had overhead lights or anything like that so so John's understanding of lamp is uh very it's more essential and and more connected to the flame too and another thing is because it was a live flame it would give off a lot of heat as well whereas again we would say if my lamp is giving giving off heat there might be something that sounds wrong with it yeah so yeah you think just danger danger yes yeah but so I guess light and heat seems so connected to this and fire yeah it seems so connected to this understanding of lamp yes down on the cross and Folly Kieran points out that you know we tend to just look at mysticism or mystical knowledges as a loving knowledge which which it is um but that you know you can have loving knowledge communicated to you from the beginning I mean that's how we we grow in the spiritual life is through that communication as we especially as we draw deeper into contemplation and the more contemplative type of praying but that John wants to talk about something you know that's not you can't just reduce it to loving knowledge it's not just like a kind of basic way that God communicates to the soul that it's something you don't much deeper or it is loving knowledge but on a different degree in a different level where he says in in number eight of this third stanza the soul becomes God from God through participation in him and in his attributes which it terms the lamps of fire so that this loving knowledge is something that's actually you know bringing us making us transforming us into God through participation yes yeah yeah so I mean even that idea of loving knowledge is that's just essentially who God is like he just is it's not that God's communicating something uh separate from himself he's just communicating who he is and he's always doing that again this is just the flame like from the beginning it's communicating to us no matter where we are in the spiritual life but the intensity or the um the depth of that is changing and so here this this Soul that's been touched substantially um the substance of the Soul has touched the substance of God there's uh there's the communication has become so intimate and so intense that it's it's this this whole new idea that really that John's talking about yes and even that term substance of the Soul it might be helpful to Define that in a way that at least father Kieran mentions in the study guide what is the substance of the Soul it is the interior principle that works or receives with total independence from the senses and faculties joined to it um so it's it's something that's deeper than just our our faculties of thinking of willing of memory as you mentioned last episode intellect um that that it's it's this interior principle that's almost independent um it's so deep you know it's it's it's so much more at the basis of who we are than even the the way that that it expressed itself in our actions or in our faculties of of the soul and so yeah so you're thinking God is touching the deepest part of us you know with the deepest part of him yes in the in these lamparas that that are that are actually enabling us to become God through participation right yeah and these I mean these lamps then I mean you you already mentioned it but they're the attributes of God yeah um and uh so so you know when we think of an attribute of something it's it's kind of secondary and when we think of natural things in the world it's kind of secondary to what the thing really truly is it's separate from its its um Essence for example so like I can say like oh I can imagine a rock and a rock has all of these attributes or qualities but they're not uh the essence of what the Rock is but it's different with God because um well here's a quiz for you uh we're talking about uh you know these these attributes of God which is something that's been talked about throughout theological uh throughout the theological tradition yeah and Saint Thomas Aquinas talks about these you know all the great theologians but for Thomas Aquinas there's one attribute that's the primary when it comes to who God is do you have do you have a guess as to what I would say existence no no being goodness no no wait I should know this I do it's somewhere it's somewhere deep down yeah it's Simplicity Simplicity Simplicity and and that doesn't mean that God is is like simple in the sense of like not intelligent or or um uh I don't know it not simple in that way what it means to say that God is simple is that he's he's totally one and it's interesting because that's where John's starting too when talking about these attributes John's a good a good Theologian he's saying all of these attributes in God are one and they're not just they're not separate from just who he is in himself so um you know he lists John list some of these attributes he lists you know like you even said goodness and existence he lists all these things wisdom these are all um characteristics of God but they're not distinct from each other and um because God is is so is one he's United they're they're not they're they're all connected and they're all just who he is in himself so we don't say God is good or we do say that but we don't say um it in the same way we would about a person yeah we'd say God is goodness itself it's not that God is wise God is wisdom that is God is all of these things and so through each one you can see all of them exactly like his saying God is good through his goodness we also see his wisdom we also see his his Beauty you know that it's all that's all one and this goes back to something we talked about in an earlier episode but so often we see those things as separate or sometimes even in concert in competition with each other and yet in God his mercy and his power and his um compassion and his love like all of these are just uh all one and the same yeah and they're all this loving knowledge which again it's not something separate from it's just it's just him it's just him communicating yeah it's that we have to make distinctions in a sense too to help understand and different things and and and not that there's not an objective kind of way of you know looking at God through these different attributes but um but that we need to be able to you know for our own understanding we often make these distinctions that but that can end up hindering sometimes to our our true grasp of right of God's Simplicity yeah I think a good image for this is um it's like God's God is communicating himself he's like this light uh this one single beam of light totally simple and yet when it shines through a prism or something it it radiates all these different attributes and so they're all contained within the one being of who God is and yet we can receive them in different ways but when we receive one we're actually receiving all of them um and so the difference for you know the experience of the Soul here is being inflamed in this um this lofty experience but I think we can relate it to our lives here and now so there are times when we resonate more with one of the attributes of God than another maybe his Beauty maybe his goodness maybe his compassion and so it's like and I think when that happens it's an invitation to let that one layer ray of light to just shine on us and know that like as we're growing as we're being warmed and and illumined by that Ray that um we're also like growing in and and receiving all of the others as well it's just that there's God at times I think allows us to receive a particular uh attribute or to resonate with a particular attribute of him yeah and you can see that I think in certain other of our of our Saints in the Carmelite tradition um I think especially if Saint Therese where she the attribute of Mercy became the attribute that through which she saw everything else and in a way too it she it showed us too that that is a proper way like I mean that that's a very biblical way too of looking at God through his Mercy that's his in a way it's his highest attribute we'd say again without without messing up the Simplicity of God but that through that attribute of merciful love we can see his Justice you know we can see his power we can it kind of makes those understandable and so like they reflect more of the the reality of God in that way the truth of God right through that attribute yes yeah exactly and so the soul here though in the living flame is and and really that all of us um the Glo in the glory of heaven we will receive all of these attributes at once um so it's in a different way like now we tend to perceive them usually as more individual um or one will shine on us more than another we'll notice one more than another but the soul here and the Soul are and and all the souls in in the beatific life in heaven will just receive all of who God is all at once um and in that sea still all the different attributes yes but see them all as one yeah and and it's inexhaustible too so it's like you're and John says it's really interesting he names certain attributes and he says and in infinite more that we don't even know right we don't we haven't even discovered it I couldn't call anything wow because how many more could you come up with with an infinite more you know different attributes that will just be inexhaustible in our in glory that will just keep going deeper I love there's this and when he's talking about these attributes where he's you know he's he's relating it to Fire and then he he uh just has this exclamation where he says oh marvelous thing the Soul at this time is flooded with Divine Waters and so he he's he switches like instantly he's like where is this coming from this idea of divine Waters you're just talking about fire and we experience we think of fire and water is almost opposites um and yet they both contain a lot of the same the same uh characteristics right water water and fire both can be like very powerful um they're both they they both can also be very gentle they can both uh I think of like the kind of the beautiful like fluid movements of both of them too so I think it's cool that John's bringing in these two sides of fire and water and he's basically using that to show that then these lamps cover the entire spectrum of of who got his um the entire Spectrum spectrum of existence from you know God is totally imminent and totally Transcendent he's mercy and he's Justice he's power he's compassion so he's all these things that we experience at times as contradictory all at the same time and and our goal then is to um to rest in this this fullness of who God is and to to receive it um for the sake of then shining it forth yes and and it gives Insight too into why John had recourse to poetry you know because in a way poetry is the uh I heard it described as the least inadequate way of kind of describing these realities that are that are ineffable or these realities that are are you know beyond our limited comprehension and so John will use these distinctions like you could say well and even we hear in Pentecost in the sequence for Pentecost that the holy spirit is the fire that cools and refreshes right or the the water that we receives that that burns in us so that you know of love for love for God so so yeah so poetry can be a great means of expressing these kind of realities that when you just sort of describe them yes often it can fall short right yeah exactly that brings us then into the the second line of the Poetry then so the first was uh lamps of oh lamps of fire and the second in whose splenders and and these splenders then that John speaks of are just um they are that that loving knowledge they are that heat and light that is the communication of who God is but what's interesting about this is that like I said um earlier that the so when when we think of a lamp the light and the the heat are something that are coming from it that are almost like secondary to it like the effects of it whereas what he's saying is that this light and warmth is not like that produced like from Material lamps um in which the lights the the light and the the heat like radiate from it he's speaking the splendors are just the Heat and the light themselves that are contained within it so it's it's so like essential to what it is it's not something that's diminishing as it's going out it's just the very heat and light itself and that the soul too is is the in a sense the air that kind of feeds the flame right yes right so it's not like we're assault like here's a lamp and here's me and it's it's shedding its heat and light um on me that might be the case for like us now the unpurified soul the the soul that's not totally United to God but when we're United together we're brought into that so that there's no distance anymore between the the flame the the Heat and the light and in US yes so just as the the air is drawn into it you know and fuels it so we're we're so much a part of it now that that and it kind of helps um in a way resolve a little bit of that distinction too between like what we do and what God does right father Kirin addresses in the study guide someone like this kind of you know understanding of how much it's you know God at work and then how much the the person has work and he says the soul is like the air within the flame enkindled and transformed in the flame for the flame is nothing but in kindled air the movements and splendors of the flame are not from the air alone or from the fire of which the flame is composed but from both air and Fire so it just shows like our full participation in this is not like inert I guess it is it is fully us and yet it's something that where God is the one who's the you know the prime actor yes in this in this cooperation in this transformation yeah and I actually think father Kieran points out and I have to agree with him he says like this is the best explanation of what what it is to me to be United to God like he says this is the best image this idea of the the air that's being um drawn into the fire and then it it's the fire is nothing else than the the air yeah a flame so there there's there's this like so there's there's no longer that distinction there um yeah I think that's like a really good image I think that comes from I think it's paragraph nine of uh John's commentary or around there so um father Kieran quotes it kind of in full as well but I think that's a good section to reread and to just you know reflect on in in prayer because I think that really is like maybe the best image that John lacrosse gives it's kind of building on the whole so earlier we had the log is wet at first it's been purified it's been dried and then eventually the log is totally consumed but there's still this fire and it's All That Remains is the air and that's that's what we're called to be is this it's it's this uh openness and receptivity um and just like capacity to receive God yes and capacity to burn exactly and that doesn't just start when we've already reached mystical Union you know that that is the reality that is always true is always there but that the mystics especially John has that have have an ability to kind of see it more clearly in in the state of you know being so close to God of being so United of being so much at his Center he's able to see this reality but it illuminates all of our experiences that that we can see kind of our role to play in in the life of Grace you know with this kind of image in this this is what it means to cooperate with Grace exactly yeah and and like a few things are stating here um this cooperation this capacity to receive just being the air reminds me of our Lady and maybe that's kind of a good transition to the the next theme that John brings up too because he he explains that these splendors are also called overshadowings and it takes him a while actually maybe right away he relates it to Mary but um these overshadowings I mean they they reference you know Luke's Gospel of saying that the Holy Spirit you know overshadowed Mary and so right away she's brought forward as this example to us yes that that she's a and and we might have mentioned before I think you did in the last episode that Mary's kind of um some will say that that all of the living flame of love is about the soul of Mary you know she's the she's the Exemplar of what John is talking about um and so in this in this section you get an explicit reference to her um but that really the whole living flame could be seen as a as a kind of manifestation of the Interior life of Mary um and so yeah so this overshadowing then the Splendor um he says that the it's protecting it's a favoring um and it means that the other person is very near when you overshadow you know and you could see this in a scary way too if you think you're by yourself and you just see the shadow come over you like you know that someone's very close to you closer but but with God of course like that it means god is so close in this overshadowing um that are that our lady is the Exemplar of but that um the the overshadowing the Splendor casting its shadow on us is also the reality that's happening you know with the soul in this state yeah and the idea of a shadow maybe is kind of a strange one to use here but I'm glad that John uses it because it does bring that element of our Lady into it but because what basically what's happening is it's a shadow but you know as the light gets closer and closer to the object um the shadow also it kind of collapses until it's all just just one and that's the image that John's saying it's like the the holy spirit is so close to the soul that his shadow not only touches it but it just like is United to it and so the shadow just becomes a part of the and again our lady is the example of of that Unity that's taking place between the soul um all of God's attributes just become a part of who she is and then radiate from her such that it's it's God that's radiating out of her but it's also who she is that's radiating out to into the world yeah and to it and it's it's again that participation because as John says the shadow casts like it's kind of like a a different sort of light right like if a if an object is is very opaque and dark then the shadow is going to be very opaque and dark but if the object is lighter and kind of thinner and kind of a sheer sort of substance then the when the light comes behind it the shadow will be illuminated and God so God is you know pure light in that way so the shadow of God is gonna be his illumination so again it's like because we don't think of shadows as illuminated yeah yeah but but no it's illuminous and it's God himself in Shadow you know and that's I like how John says that again shows the the participatory aspect it's not we're trying to you know make God in the soul one without any kind of Distinction anymore that yes no it's God but in Shadow you know in this state you know it's still God but in Shadow who's who's drawing the the person into his attributes into his life yeah and and uh maybe before we go on to the next uh line though I could give a little plug for there's a book that I've I'm I'm still I'm I haven't read the whole thing yet I'm about three-fourths of the way through now but there's this book Mary the perfect contemplative that ICS put out recently and uh by Barbara Hughes and it's really helped me to see um how it is that when whenever John's talking about the perfect Soul he has Mary in mind to some degree if even if not explicitly it's implicit in what he's saying oh yeah um so it's just yeah it's a beautiful I've I've found it really beautiful to pray with I've really enjoyed it so far so I definitely recommend that marry the perfect contemplative Carmelite insights on the interior life of our Lady it's a very good book and that helps us understand John too in a way you know knowing Mary's experience helps us understand okay what John is talking about the concreteness of it the reality and what work what we're called to but also what we're participating in here and now yes all right well maybe let's move then to the the next line which is probably where things get a little bit more tricky and this is the Deep Caverns feeling um this is complicated this this section but I think it's also very important yeah well first just understand that caverns of Senses you know and feelings that he's talking about um that the living flame talks about it in a in a unique way you know you have a sense that we don't want to make our journey to God that of the the senses right that of just our our kind of thinking and sensing and and sort of our limited way of approaching reality you know based on our kind of creaturely way um that that's not the way we go to God in the end I mean that's a good start and it we need to kind of have our senses and our you know thoughts evangelized in a sense um and brought you know more and more into being able to approach God but at a certain point we have to almost kind of let go you know yeah or we at least have to not rely on them so much as defining our relationship with God yes um but then it's like okay and so then you sort of pass through that stage of kind of being more detached from the senses in a way to then the living flame where it's like then he talks all about feelings you know and these caverns of sentido and yeah well maybe you could say something about that Spanish word even um I mean consentido is is the Spanish word there for the Deep Caverns a feeling that's the word for feeling but maybe even feeling is not the the best translation or I don't know what could you illuminate like what does that word mean yes and Tito has I mean it has feeling it has also kind of a sense of meaning to um in Spanish and and I think the cavernas de sentido also have a sense of like the senses too of just like so you're the one thing almost sensing exactly the way you're experiencing experiencing yeah yeah and and so the the the caverns you know are are these yeah are this like our capacity I guess to to feel to see to sense so when John of the Cross then is talking about these these caverns of feeling he's not talking about a cavern of of uh kind of our exterior feelings our very fleeting feelings but rather he's talking about something very interior it's the way that we ex can experience God through these Caverns uh which he kind of enumerates here in in this this section yeah and the caverns really he always goes back to it the powers right the powers of the Soul um the the the memory the understanding and the will and that they are profound the depth is profound because they have an infinite capacity because we're Spiritual Beings right you know so there's an infinite capacity there and when they attach to a created thing um that that kind of holds them back you know from knowing from experiencing their sort of infinite capacity and the the sort of emptiness in a good way that they're called to forgot God and um it's kind of like at least probably pure Giorgio mentioning last last episode of the of using your Maserati to go to the grocery store yes you know so we have these infinite capacities and we don't want to attach them to something because what he's saying then it prevents us from the Hunger from for God exactly yeah that's that's attached to or that's kind of of their Essence yeah and it's it's like so this purification has been taking place where we're no longer depending on our exterior senses or even like um our more surface level feelings or imaginations to go to God because those things can't can't reach God in himself right I can't see God with my my my physical eyes I can't touch God with my physical hands so we've been purified in that way and now we're coming down to like the most inner part of Who We Are Spiritual selves and that's where these deep Caverns are which John enumerates as you know the intellect memory and will those have the capacity because they're infinite that's what John's saying these infinite Caverns they they are the one part of us that does have the capacity to to be United to God in himself the rest of us will will participate in that but it's through me means of this spiritual part of us which is infinite and that's I mean first of all that's what's incredible about the human person that we were created with this infinite capacity it's something that's beautiful it's it's why um the human person has such great worth and it gives us a Insight too into kind of our own experience of often of pain or people who are stuck in addiction or different things is because we've we have this infinite worth this infinite dignity that we then kind of you know attach to something that's so much lower than what we're called to yes you know and if I think this can be a helpful thing for people maybe to see that to not be afraid of the emptiness that they might feel when they don't satisfy what they're seeking right yeah like I mean so often we run from emptiness or we run or we run two things that will just sort of you know be a very temporary fix right but but this is a good what John describes here is saying like no like we want to know that our Caverns are infinite and to have this emptiness and have this almost like unquenchable thirst at times and so to be able to rest in that when we do experience that on our own level you know that we don't have to run from that and we don't have to try to fill it with something else it's like you can be okay with that because that shows that we're being created I mean we're we have this capacity for God yeah I often think of um when I think of infinite Caverns I think of the Grand Canyon I think you and pure Georgie Father Peter Giorgio went there at some point recently right yeah a couple years back yes you've seen the Grand Canyon and it's I mean it's it's a huge hole like that's what it is and um I think so similar to that the Maserati image is I think that this this Cavern is what this is our soul like we have this incredible capacity and yet um we try to fill it up with like it's like we're trying to fill it up but we're trying to take like a fight or a uh a garden hose and like try to fill it up you know or we're trying to take like a shovel and just like fill it in where I'm gonna fill up this hole with this shovel and it's like this is never going to work even if I were to get like you know a million garden hoses or a million people shoveling like I still wouldn't fill up this hole within my lifetime and that's what we're trying to do we're trying to fill it with the things of the world with these things that aren't always bad they can be good exactly yeah and very often they are good things um but they can also be addictions they can be I mean there's many other things we just busyness distractions we try to fill up this hole the infinite scroll you know yes exactly it's girl or whatever it is social media I know and it'll never fill us it'll always leave us it'll just leave us tired and frustrated and feeling um more uh yet not at peace more Disturbed yeah and so what what we're really called to though is to to empty that out and just sit in that emptiness because it's there that will then uh open ourselves to be filled by God because he's the only one that can fill a cavern that's that's so expansive yes and to not to not uh give in to the kind of the tragedy of them thinking no I I'm okay you know yeah like I I have my little shovel I mean I have my little dirt that I'm putting in the Grand Canyon and I'm and I'm doing okay I don't need yeah one I think that's where many people are in the world it's like we're shoveling away and it's we're just busy yeah like we're keeping ourselves busy but eventually we're gonna hit that wall where we get so fatigued from the shovel and it's gonna we're gonna break down and that can be a Grace like that can be the moment where we realize like okay this isn't working oh yeah but we just keep ourselves so distracted or um medicated in a sense uh that we we don't even notice the the impossibility of the task that we're trying to do yes and I know it's it's the the Heartbreak for a lot of Parish priests or other people preachers things that that are just Awakening people to the need you know like just to know that you are a cavern and that you need God you need God to fill you and people can go to mass their whole lives you know or at least you know participate you know in their faith in different ways and without being awakened to that like no I really do need you need to be filled I need God to fill me yeah and nothing else will do it exactly yeah well maybe we can expand a little bit then on the particular like Caverns that John's talking about here because um he kind of helpfully breaks it down into these different capacities that we have because he says that you know the the first Cavern is the intellect the second is the will and the third is the memory and we talked a little bit in the last episode we kind of introduced these topics the idea that um these capacities are powers of our soul are not um they're not uh things or like parts of our soul they're they're rather just um they're they're that they're just powers or capacities they're the ways that our soul can can act and it's really what distinguishes us from from uh like animals for example um because we have these capacities these infinite capacities our souls are capable of understanding our souls are capable of of loving and these movements are again we can we can focus them on the things of the world very limited things or we can focus them on God and there that's the only way that will be fulfilled in this life yes maybe we can go a little bit deeper than into each of these Caverns or each of these capacities then of the soul the intellect memory and then the will um so John says that the first you know the first Cavern is the intellect and he says it's it's a void its void is a thirst for God and so I think for me it's helpful to see that by our human Okay so our intellect is our our Soul's power to understand something and by our human uh our our kind of limited finite human nature we can understand many things right we can um understand simple things such as like how to tie my shoes or I can say understand very complex things like calculus um or like Neuroscience or something like that but in this finite way of using our intellects we can't understand God because God is infinite and he's so far beyond our abilities to understand in a natural like finite way but this is where faith comes in um because by means of Faith which is a kind of a supernatural virtue it raises the capacity of our intellects so that we can understand God not completely in this life in like a very clear way but in sort of like a dark obscure mysterious way however the problem is we tend to cling to that natural way of understanding because uh it's comfortable it's what we're used to and so we stick to like our own incomplete ideas about who God is and about what he's capable of doing in our lives but our ideas about God are not God himself they're they're by Nature they're they're limited they're finite and so I to me this is like we're trying to see something that's a Million Miles Away using our natural eyes um instead though we need the help of this like telescope of faith that raises our capacity so that we can truly um through faith that we can truly understand God and participate in him in that way yeah and it's it's I think it's helpful to point out too that it's not just us kind of spinning our Wheels it's not just sort of thinking thinking that it's going to get me to God you know and just if I can just get as many great ideas as I could from any book or from whatever then I'll like get closer to God somehow but it's saying like no like we need yeah we need and it kind of changes the way we approach it too this telescope of faith means that it's not just me sort of getting there trying to run to God A Million Miles Away it's like it just it's it's a it's a different way of sort of approaching him as well right yeah and and so then the memory um and the memories maybe a little more complicated in our understanding today because of how we understand what the memory is but um the memory is really our Soul's power our Soul's capacity to like recall um and to like possess something um yeah it's not just an archive no exactly right yeah it's this power that we have so something that animals don't have right we have a power um to to recall something to hold something in our minds um whether that thing is something that like might be in the future in the present or the past and um you know I uh this our natural like human abilities we have this this way that we can possess many things in our minds we can possess like you know the things that happened many years ago or we can hold in our minds you know even just the words that I just said five seconds ago um yet our natural human memory on its own um in a natural way cannot possess God again because God is so far beyond our ability to contain um in our minds and so this is where the theological virtue of Hope comes in and by means of Hope which hope is a supernatural virtue uh our memories are raised so that we can possess God not completely in this life again uh like like with the intellect there's kind of this mysterious kind of dark way in which we possess God here and now through this virtue um but in a very real way still nonetheless and the problem like the intellect again is that we tend to cling to our natural ways of using our memories because they're comfortable that's what we're used to and so we constantly like we recall times of of hurt from our past or embarrassment or we are constantly recalling or worrying about anxieties from the future and we let that these things Define who we are and instead of being present to God who's present with us in the present and so an image of this for me is like this is like we're trying to cling to a handful of change we're trying to hold this change we don't want to give up this change all these coins uh when God's offering us like you know a million dollars or something like that we're just we're unwilling to let go but we have to let go of the change in order to receive the great gift of and it's through hope then that we can receive God God allows us to to empty and receive that gift yeah and I think it's helpful you point out too that it this is a spiritual faculty so it's not like animals have memory in a certain sense like in an analogical sense they have a kind of impression that sticks with them we know elephants right like after years you know have remember so to speak what happened to them when they're little or something and then they flip out but but that um but that that human capacity of memory is distinct in that it can actually Define how we will um expect things in the future and and it helped and we anticipate in a way too so yes so we if we if we hold on to something like you said that change and let's say God gave us that change right it could be a change could be a very good thing yeah God gave us that change 20 40 years ago when I was in second grade CCD you know he gave me this change and and I'm just gonna hold on to that because that's all I got you know and whereas if we can let go of some of those memories even the good ones I mean if we can let go of that that need to possess then we can expect that God will give us so much something so much better like it or we don't have to think well all God wants to give me is change but that's what happens when we hold on in our memory right we just it conditions our expectations of the future too exactly and we think no this is not for me or nothing goes right in my life or something and it kind of undermines God's ability to surprise us and to like bring us to something so much greater right exactly yeah so then moving on to the last the third Cavern the will um and this is really the Soul's power to love or or and also in a way to choose and um once again by by our kind of limited human way of using our will uh we can love many things we can love things that are both good for us and things that are bad for us we can love you know our spouses our children um or we can love things like pleasure or power things that ultimately end up harming us yet uh our human nature on its own um our Wills cannot love God it's they're incapable because God is again infinite he's beyond our capacity to truly love um by In This natural way but this is where the theological virtue of Charity comes in and this is what Jonathan cross explains is that um through charity this Supernatural virtue our Wills are raised so that we can love God again not totally perfectly in this life but in this kind of incomplete uh dark way here and now but it's still a very real way um however once again we try we tend to cling to our natural uh limited way and love things in this world because they're comfortable they're they're they're familiar to us and um these things that we love these finite things in the world they cannot like we said earlier they cannot satisfy this infinite longing that we have they just cannot fill that and so an image of this to me is like this is like eating fast food when we're being offered like a gourmet meal the fast food kind of May satiate Us in the moment but it'll kind of ultimately leave us feeling hungry again in a very short time um while the the gourmet meal of God's love is this it'll just fill us entirely so that we're never hungry again but we need the help of Charity to choose to love God above all of these other things yeah and John even points out in a couple other spot there's a letter to a religious um where it's a beautiful thing always says what our will grasps for is what we or what we can grasp as good you know so something that we can enjoy in a sense and and so but God is so beyond our power to grasp you know he we can't enjoy him in the same ways we can enjoy another like finite thing and so our will you know tends to then just grasp at what we can enjoy and until we were able to let go of some of that like of just realizing that I can love something that's so much Beyond me because like you said I have this gift of Charity this gift of Charity that makes me able to love with God's Own love yes because you could have a natural knowledge of God too let's say or a philosophical knowledge of God and kind of love him as the source of all good so to speak but you can't love him with that trinitarian Christian you know christ-like love of his father that that the gift of Charity enables us to do and to gra and to to love something that maybe we can't grasp yes yeah and this this lays out the kind of the entire the the entire spiritual life for John lacrosse it's this process of learning or cooperating with God's grace to to let go of the limited natural ways of of um loving of of understanding and to allow God to work in us and it's ultimately something we can't do on our own it's something we just make ourselves receptive to and allow God to work in us this is where God steps into to kind of bring bring it to it's another image now of like this matrimonial Union you know and how how these caverns of santido give way to the sense of God preparing us for something so much greater you know the first the betrothal to himself and then eventually to the spiritual marriage so maybe I don't know if you could maybe share some on the the distinction and what God is doing in this process yeah John just I mean he kind of ends this section here that we're talking about today by distinguishing between this these ideas that you mentioned the spiritual Patrol on the spiritual marriage and the Soul here in the living flame that we're reading about has reached this final stage of this spiritual marriage and um you know the idea of betrothal is very a different uh concept than our understanding of like engagement today um you know in 16th century Spain the time that John's talking about it's it's really the time that the the details of the wedding contract were worked out and between the you know the families of the couple and that John explains that there were these visits there are these visits that are made um by the uh the spouses to one another to get to know each other um but there he's not yet this Union which will take place at the the marriage and so that's ultimately this marriage is what John's talking about here and what we're all called to um even in this life I mean certainly in heaven yes and perfectly in heaven but even in this life we're called to this kind of Union this kind of marriage and the means the means that this by which this takes place is this um uniting our Wills uniting our intellects uniting our memories to God yeah and he the the kind of quaint understanding we we would say maybe quite now of like how you know the process was in the 16th century he talks about betrayal though you know they're these visits right like you just make these little momentary visits you might give a gift yeah you know and how what that does is that stirs up this desire you know that this is greater desire for the Beloved um and and so then the desire itself John says is the the kind of the greatest preparation for entering into spiritual matrimony yes you know and and so I think again for those of us maybe who are quite there yet maybe it's spiritual marriage we don't know uh that to stir up the desire you know that that what God gives you those gifts he gives you um we let our desire grow and that that's the best preparation in a way for God to give more gifts and and what the spiritual marriage is you know which is this this total surrender of your gifts to God and God's gifts to you and this total interchange almost equality in a sense of of sharing of of oneself one's life yeah and that desire is is very often experienced in the emptiness that we're talking about at these caverns and so just to to learn to be to learn to sit in that that space make the space clear out the busyness clear out the noise clear out the Clutter allow yourself just to sit in the silence and The Emptiness because that's where God is is um clearing out the space increasing that desire so that you can be United to him in this way all right well great so this uh concludes our discussion of the first half of of stanza 3 then and uh next week we'll be going through the rest of stanza three if you're interested in uh seeing you know which stanzas we'll be reading for each week uh in the link of the Down Below this there's a uh a reading guide there that you can follow along with um and yeah we look forward to being with you next week God bless you foreign

Channel: ICS Publications

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Id: Sm6poUP9Dd4

Length: 47min 25sec (2845 seconds)

Published: Mon Jul 24 2023