The Last Days of Lee Harvey Oswald: A Conversation with Ruth Paine

[Music] thank you all for being here tonight my name is Stephen Fagan I'm the curator here at the sixth floor Museum at Dealey Plaza and it's a great honor to share the stage with someone who when I get asked working on the oral history project at the Museum who would you most like to interview and I often have to qualify that by saying alive or dead and when they say alive this lady right here has always been at the top of my list and I'm pleased to say we did an oral history today it was fantastic and I'm so pleased that we could share this conversation with you tonight Ruth I'd like to begin by taking a look at you from 1963 the way the world became a first acquainted with you so let's take a look at this video clip and then we'll talk for a few minutes good this is Payne how did you first become acquainted with the Oswald I met them through friends at a party last winter and then saw more of Marina later I was interested in talking with her because I was trying to learn the language then later they had financial difficulty when he lost his work and eventually led to my inviting her to live with me in Dallas while she was waiting for her baby that was born in October and to stay on a couple of months with me that's the one woman with another can help when babies are small and I think they expected to get an apartment together when they could afford it's after Christmas where were you with mrs. Oswald the president said we were both sitting on the sofa we had been watching these mourning proceedings on this television and I translated to her when I heard it that he had been shot but where did from him and we were I was crying and she was very upset and indeed this was our condition when men came from the police department in Dallas and that was the first that we had any indication that stuff her husband was associated with this tragic event Ruth does that feel like 56 years ago oh boy yeah that's pretty vivid yeah you met LeeAnn Marina Oswald on February 22nd 1963 exactly nine months to the day before the assassination nine months of your life that you have been asked to recount time and time again over these many years and we appreciate you going on that journey one more time with us tonight take us back to that party when you met Lee and marina and give us your first impressions of them all right this is a friend that I had been singing with and I met somebody who did the magical group this evening and he knew that I'd been was interested in studying Russian and know that this young couple would be there and invited me and Michael to come Michael had a cold so he didn't get to go but I went Lea was talking with people in the kitchen about I asked him about his trip to the Soviet Union and wanting to defect there and people listened well and then I went into the bedroom because marina was taking care of their baby June and she couldn't understand the conversation that was going on so I went in to try to talk to her and I was very pleased that I could make myself understood and that I could more or less understand her let's let's set the scene a little bit you have two children yeah they do Chris and you filed for divorce against your husband Michael right and so effectively you're a single mom with these two kids and you're very lonely you need someone to talk to that's right your political ideology is also different from most of your neighbors and acquaintances in the Dallas community yeah oh it's not bowling in Dallas yes so you got to know marina yeah you you wrote a few letters you visited with her you went over to the Neely Street apartment that's become so famous from the backyard photographs which of course you weren't aware of at the time right give us a sense of the Oswald's marriage the perception you had of the Oswald's marriage at that time well I did feel that there was a lot of stress I learned later that he had actually hit her but I never saw that he never was physical with her but they'd argue is they bicker yeah but she was fluent in the language she could give him better than he could get back sometimes he just dancing multi shut up you know because he lost track of words what he could say and so I knew there were stresses and then one time I went over this is after that first party where we met and I you had to arrange by mail to to come over because I didn't have a phone can you picture being so poor you don't have a phone and so she said thank me for coming saying thank you for not forgetting us and we went out to the park with with our little kids and I learned that she was expecting again and that he was interested in talking about sending her back to the Soviet Union which she did not want to do so I was worried about her and worried about what her choices might be and this was an opportunity so often in in the assassination literature you're described as opening up your home to her and you're often characterized as a selfless person but you were getting something out of it early absolutely if imagine you're trying to learn the language what could be better than to be in the house with somebody who spoke the language fluently and and to try to learn and she was good teaching me to would tell me things so that and I think that helped lead to know that I saw it that way and that he understood how helpful it would be so because I was concerned that that he not look upon me as an interloper or someone who would not recognize him as the head of the family so you and you invited marina and maybe June to come and stay with you this is in April who may actually make 1963 right you spent about two weeks together tell me about those two weeks they were pretty happy yeah well I struck back I went to visit them at a time that was agreed upon and Lee was there and he was all packed up with packages and things and asked for a ride to the Greyhound bus station and I said you know we can do that and I learned that he was going to New Orleans and was planning to get marina a ticket and I have her follow when he had a job and a place for them to stay it was going to live where he had been born and born in New Orleans they had some family there so all I knew was that he was going to look for work and he wanted her to go by the bus to get there and of course when he had a place for them he would have to write to tell her so I said well hey you know she could stay at my house I have a phone you could call when you have a place and I'll bring her down with with you and the baby and my two kids of course with went with me everywhere so that's what happened when he had a place he called and was so sweet she she said to her daughter after talked papanasam father loves us she was pleased to be going to New Orleans and so we're going it down a stay at the weekend didn't came back marina wasn't very impressed with the apartment that Oswald had gotten on Magazine Street was it nobody's impressed as he was he really wanted her to like it there was some rather nice furniture but she liked things tidy and clean and it was bug infested we had cockroaches so you know and in South you if you have guests you put a pallet on the floor and we had put me on the floor and I decided to do a a ring of bug spray around me and the two kids exclude the bugs so the summer of 1963 while well Lee and marina and June were in New Orleans you were with your kids and you went on a trip tell us a little bit about the trip yes well again I was lonely and bored and I thought well I'll go visit family and was invited to come and see family in the East and I stopped also to see some friends like an Indiana who had worked with me on what was called the East West contracts Committee of the young friends committee of North America which is what got me started in Russian we were trying to do an exchange of young people between our two countries it was encouraged by the State Department and so I stopped to visit with the co clerk of that committee and his family and then went on to my in-laws and visited visited in Philadelphia and then went down to see my sister who was near Washington this was this was 1963 it was a year of the march on Washington and you know more losing King did such a wonderful talk and it was a very exciting event and we had to we were had to feel that we couldn't really go because my sis little children I had little children I couldn't see getting in a big crowd and where would we park and where would the bathroom be and all those other questions so we were at home but I really felt sorry to miss that yeah and you were driving back down to New Orleans to get marina but you stopped in Birmingham tell that's true I felt we could stuff this is a year also when you know those four girls were killed in the bombing of the Birmingham church and I thought we could stop there they our respects maybe leave a contribution and it was something that I could maybe explain to my two-year-old a three-year-old or maybe not but anyway they could see that this place had been injured and I could explain what it happened and so we stopped there and then I went on to New Orleans at that time in your life because of your kids you really didn't have the freedom to be active to be that's revolved in civil rights but you managed to hello Slater wider got my chance now in New Orleans of course that's a summer sort of Oswalt summer odyssey in New Orleans that gets written about a lot we're looking at his mug shot here from August you weren't aware that he had had a run-in with the anti-castro don't know didn't know you came down and we're packing up marina to take her back right I have written ahead to says I could pick him pick marina up if they wanted to have her stay with me because I learned she had not had any prenatal care she or she is eight months pregnant and they couldn't get free care in Orleans Parish because I hadn't lived there long enough but they could in in Dallas so suggested that she come back with me and also then I could help translate and negotiate with the hospital with parkland when it was time for the baby to come so I think we really appreciated that and he was also sad to see her go so I felt there while they argued a lot they there was certainly warm feeling between them as well so we packed up every stuff and again the way Li had packed things to go on the Greyhound bus he packed things to go in the back of my car and I'm pretty sure looking back you know you have to say okay where was the gun how come that was never seen I didn't know it existed and I feel that it must have been packed in these two huge marine duffel bags that he had it would fit easily with clothing around and so on and then he packed the back of the car for me had to unload it and repack because we had to get a spare tire before we left town anyway we drove back and then marina was staying and and I think the expectation was that they might be there till maybe at least till the baby comes and maybe as long as still Christmas till he could get the work and a place for them let's uh let's take a look courtesy the Warren Commission of a little floor plan of your house how many of you have been to see Ruth Payne's home in Irving it's a little bit smaller than you expected right it's a it's a pretty tiny space and to imagine you and marina and your kids and Jun all in that little environment and Rachel came but it was a happy time for you yes it was very social and you know we did we I did have a TV we could watch TV and and with it we folded a lot of diapers together and just a nice way to talk and to to be together we were talking earlier about terminology and you said that you were marinas friend but you never considered yourself her confidante right yeah I think there was always a little distance and you know I wasn't that good in Russian and I missed the jokes she told to explain the jokes and that was tough so I think she didn't trust me yeah mm-hmm Oswald comes back to town October 4th you had been giving blood that day at Parkland apparently so part of the in exchange for getting the care for marina Rachel so Oswalt's back in the fold but he doesn't live with you obviously tell us about the arrangement that was made for Oswald to visit with the family well he we have to say that that it was when when he was looking for work he didn't have a yeah I think he was got a little room or something but I was let me tell about where you got with the job yeah yeah well because of course we're in the building we're in the Texas here we are and we it's important to note that we would not be here in this building had you not gone the extra mile and tried to help him find a job well I was sitting with a couple of neighbors and one of the neighbors said he's not getting any money now and looking for a job and he doesn't drive and he's very limited and what he can get and he's got a little girl and I'm another one on the way and Lennie Mae Randall who was the neighbor there said well my brother's working at the school book depository they're filling orders for schools right now and seem he's very busy maybe there would be work there so I we went back home while we were at the neighbor's house went back home and I told Marino what what we'd been saying because you have to understand she not only didn't speak English she didn't really understand the conversation that we were having so I said that we were talking about a possibility of maybe work with Lenny Mae Randall's brother was and she said oh call and see if there really accepting applications so I called and talked to Roy truly who was the earth or where else and described the family and said that this young man was looking for work and he didn't say whether there was an opening or not but he said we'll let the young man come by so when also called as he normally did in the early evening to talk to marina she told him about it and and he did show up the next day and got the job and it was just there's so many things that just happened you know couldn't have known what would what would come next but that that's that led to his being able to come out on the weekend because he wrote in with a lineage brother Wesley Fraser and then could come out to that to the house in Irving on Friday evening to be with his family for the weekend and go back at Monday and that worked pretty well you know what's a small house and lots of people and I wasn't that keen on his being there too but weekend for the family that was fine yeah cause what was helpful to you on occasion during this period yeah I think he really appreciated this arrangement and you know at one point one of the doors was swollen it wouldn't really close I actually took it off the hinges to get it plane down and fit in them in the door jamb and so he helped with that and mostly he watched TV he loved football and what was going on I can tell you that all the people who said they saw on here getting his hair cut or Gooding trying out a car whatever no he was on my living room floor watching the ballgame I knew it just where he was I think that's one reason the Warren Commission's spend so much time with me they wanted to know where he was and and what I could tell them about his finances was was Lee a good father I think he cared about his family I also think actually for this young couple that was having stresses that the separation was better for them than living together that the little bit of time part was was was helpful but but he plays with this little girl and when he came out and he played with my kids too he he was okay that's part of part of what we have to learn because you just didn't see I saw how isolated he was and how much a loner because nobody called to talk to him you know he didn't go anywhere on the weekend or nobody came by and but I didn't see him as violence I certainly didn't know he had a gun and and you'll it's also it's you've written it up so well in here he he had tried to kill somebody in April of that year and who only marina and Lee knew that because the police had not been able to figure out who had shot at General Edwin a will Walker's house and put them rifle bullet right through the window they never figured it out and in fact they never found out until after the assassination and bless your heart you really got the information in here that you need page four on December 2nd 63 mrs. Ruth Payne turned over to the police some of the Osmos belongings including a Russian volume in the book was an undated note written in Russian in translation and starts self this is the key and I sent a book to Marina which he went after the assassination that the next day she left the house with her daughter and with her mother-in-law who had been us at their police station and said would she be able to stay with us tonight and I said well you can sleep on the sofa you can come and so that Marina marina and mrs. Oswald and to Life magazine people that mrs. Oswald invited came and they all went into Dallas then on Saturday and I expected marina would be back and she expected she would be back but she did not come back and maybe I should say that Lee called from the jail to talk to her that evening and that's a she's not here I don't know where she is well she should be there you know he was very upset that she wasn't there so I thought hey that I know it was tommy Thompson from Life magazine was a name I recognized it and he told me what hotel they were in so I I called the hotel and asked for Tommy Johnson and margarita Oswald answered the phone and I said may I speak to Marina no no you can't talk to her inna and of course if you know Marguerite she would not have wanted anyone speaking in language she couldn't understand the same thing she wouldn't know about and I said well II wanted to be able to reach marina and talk to her and mrs. Oswald says well we can't be too concerned about what Lee thinks at this point can William okay mrs. Oswald so that was that totality and then I did not see marina again until after she testified for the Warren Commission and I was done in March of 64 but meantime she had expected to come back needed clothes for the kids needed diapers she called me said please send such a session and so I made up a little package of stuff it's a center including some mail which come it was so hard in our country were so welcoming to her and understood what a terrible spot she was in and sent little notes to encourage and a little bit of money and so this was all going into the packet to go to Marina and the City of Irving had posted an officer in front of the house and there is that Moss squad car so I carried a little package out to him would you please see if you can get this to marine Oswald oh yeah be cool so that was there were several times when I could took things and one time I included a book it was a book that was not in the rest of their things in the garage because we had been reading from it I think about pinworms as a child care and home stuff that needed that you need to know and all in Russian and since we're reading it it was in the and the main body the house and my I fell on it I thought was might make her feel better to have this with her so I sent it with some of this stuff okay and two days later here come two guys from Secret Service and one of them was a Russian speaker and I figured he wanted to check out my Russian language and so he talked to me in Russian and opened the conversation and I did respond and he showed me piece of paper he didn't want me to really look at the whole thing but he says mrs. Bain have you seen this no I've never seen this do you recognize the handwriting no I don't recognize and writing and he says mrs. Fane you sent this to marina well no all this in Russian mind you but I noticed in the first line the it was written in Russian but the word key was in English so whoever written it I said to the Russian guy who ever written and did not know the Russian word for King and he put that in instead and then I was getting really upset because the the he was aggressive and hostile and really he suspected me of something so I finally translated to the English speaker and he said well it was in a book okay I sent a book so that's how it came to light and that of course was after the assassination of Kennedy and I was the first we knew first the police knew first to anybody knew that he had tried to kill somebody earlier in April because it's about it's the note he left for her when he went out to try to kill Walker and it ends if I am Alive and taken prisoner you know that's pretty strong language you do wonder what was going on and that was what he wrote in April let's let's go back and talk about that weekend okay as you mentioned working here in the School Book Depository Oswald had this routine where he would come home on Fridays stay the weekend go back to work but he deviated from that on the weekend of the president's visit you were out grocery shopping right come back on Thursday November 21st and Lee's in the front yard yeah you know what's about that last night well I I was very surprised he usually asked about coming out and in fact he had asked about coming out the weekend prior which was my daughter's birthday and of that weekend my daughter was born on the you know whatever this is the 19th right she was born on the 17th and we were having a party and marina asked him not to come out that weekend and then we we decided she got to missing him by the end of the weekend and asked me to call him at the number he had given us to call if the baby came and so my darlin and it's Leo's was there no it's just the right number yes and I was very confused I mean I didn't know what to think this was Sunday night well Monday when Lee called as he often did in the afternoon to talk to marina she said we tried to reach you you weren't there and he said you shouldn't have tried to reach me that that I'm using a different name and I don't want they didn't know where I am and so on and I and she she said I could hear her part at the conversation she really reamed him out for using an inalienable government they they're pretty hot and argued on the phone but that was Sunday night oh excuse me Monday at Monday afternoon and well we're talking about the fantasies for a minute I want to put something on the screen here this was a letter we borrowed your typewriter prior to the weekend the assassination yes it was to look the two weekends before because he was out for the three-day veteran State or whatever that's called holiday and you saw a draft of this letter and it concerns you tell us about what I did I felt he was lying he says the FBI is no longer interested in my wife and I on and I knew that wasn't true was an FBI guy I had been out twice just to see where they were and then the he referred to Mexico and that was you know that looks like a lie to me I didn't know and so it concerned me that he what is this what's going on and you know he was after all in the Soviet Union came back we don't really know what he might have been doing and I thought well I'll show it to hosting the FBI guy when he comes out next time see what he thinks well that was not a host he did not come out again until after the assassination so the FBI had come to your house a couple of times yeah twice and and you weren't concerned about this well I was not surprised let's say I figured it was their job to keep track of where this young man was and his russian-born wife just to know what they were doing and where they were and whether they were benign or possibly spies or whatever so that I wasn't a bit surprised they'd come out and he was Asian hosting was very civilized and wise and very respectful of our privacy and our right to have an opinion and so on and he gave me a card of his card and and the second time he was there I gave it to Lee who came out that weekend and and then I understood later read later much later that Lee had gone in to the FBI office and was irritated that hosti was not there and wrote a little note to host E which FBI then destroyed the punches they would they did a few things I shouldn't have done along not track let's go back to Thursday Oswald's there in the yard and you actually mentioned the fact that Kennedy's coming to town that's true yes we were so excited about us coming and I I was back from grocery shopping and leave his already there and both marina and I thought that maybe he was just trying to they were trying to make up what were they argument and the anger that had been over the phone on Monday and so please help carry some groceries in and I'm as we passed I said our president that's pretty nice I can't say it now mush president created our president is coming to town and he didn't just sort of grunted and went on I was so excited yeah tell us about that night and then I was after I put my kids to bed and in the one bedroom and when I came out of it must have been about nine o'clock and Lee was already in the bedroom I didn't know sign of him but I went to work in the garage to paint some blocks that are made for the kids and the light was on I thought well that's unusual the marina doesn't do that and what would have why would he have gone to the garage but I didn't really solve that I couldn't imagine why this next day is difficult to talk about of course boys yes so tell us about news of the assassination and what happened next well I knew that the president was going to be in Fort Worth first breakfasted there and when I got up I someone that Lee had already left for work it was a coffee cup in the sink and so I turn on the TV to watch the President and mrs. Kennedy arrived at and Fort Worth and they were a little bit late and the news anchor was filling time and he talked about the assassination of President McKinley can you believe it because it was there was in the atmosphere people were worried about the president's safety because there had been kind of a hostile attack with a sign by a woman a few weeks before on Natalie Stephenson and anyway I thought it was read tasting upset by that and then they they we watched as they arrived at Love Field and a very happy crowd you've got wonderful pictures of that time of the crowd greeting them and then then it was a very short what did you say only a number of minutes that they were actually in Dallas and we were I was watching TV at this time marina was up and watching TV as well and I translated when we heard that the President had been shot and then you know they didn't have TV was still new they didn't have cameras on the that part of the motorcade route and one of the newspaper men was talking there was auditory sound from commenting and he said the president was shot and he saw a cloud of pink come up for the president's head and I thought oh my god it's fatal and so lit a candle Marina asked was that a way of praying yes yeah well I was just so stricken [Music] give you a hug if there were too many people here yeah police came the police came and the worst moment for you arrived when you went to the garage that's right police came about six police officers came to the door and wanted to come in and I I asked him if they had a warrant I don't know what my was I was always enough to ask fat but they didn't and they said but we can get one right away and I thought oh god everybody's so upset you know just come in sit down oh they of course they didn't sit out they looked everywhere to see what was in the house didn't take him long to look over everything I've lost it they asked if they owned a gun oh that's right and I said no and then translated to Marina who said yes he did and led them into the garage and there on the floor was this blanket roll and the policeman picked it up and you know just folded over his arm it was so clearly empty and this is the worst moment ever because I thought oh my god it could have been me it could have been Lee and no he's you know doing whatever I could to help the officers he said they were not they did take a lot of stuff they didn't need to take but we'll talk about that moment but I have a news clip I want to share one that I don't think you had seen until today yeah a brief brief glimpse of you in the hallway at Dallas Police Headquarters surrounded by reporters and lights and we'll also see Michael misidentified as Robert Osborne Michael Payne and we'll also see marina and margarita it kind of goes by relatively quickly but let's take a look at this this is a wife and the brother of the family coming up now if you'll shoot right down the hall here the wife and the family coming down and the brother is in a light coat the wife is on the right are on your left as you're looking at this screen a very slight woman next to her is a gray-haired lady the wife of Oswald is carrying a child as they move down the hall and a little bonus celebrity sighting there that is Bob Schieffer later with CBS at that time just a young reporter with the forward Star Telegram Ruth here's a picture of some of the stuff taken from your garage there's a sign of the middle voluntarily given to Dallas PD by Ruth Payne that's not quite the case not quite the case no you know they already said they didn't have a warrant but then they started loading stuff into their cars a couple of the three metal cases that at my college papers and correspondence with my family and so on and the couple of cases of folk dance records I had been arranged expected to be able to go that we're up to Thanksgiving now Thanksgiving weekend to lead folk dancing a little Quaker gathering but I didn't get to go I figured it wasn't the time to leave town and but the records anyway so I said you don't want those and that as soon as I was complaining no one grabs me by the arm and we've got to get downtown right away you know a police station so they as soon as I was nervous they were nervous but it was very setting I'm not neighbor this is Robert where we had been having the coffee earlier she said she has never seen me so angry telling the police you don't need those the police didn't have a search warrant Friday but they came back Saturday and this time they did have a search warrant this is in our collection this is the search warrant filed with Dallas County this was the envelope and on the inside is this search warrant for the property that you're in charge of Ruth Payne and at the bottom the reason for the search it just says murder they took even more stuff on Saturday and and at this point you didn't even stay at the house you left them there right yeah it pretty freaked out okay I said well my house is perfectly safe it's full of policemen I guess I'll go grocery shop here's a list a partial list of the things they took from your home now you you you went grocery shopping on Thursday before the assassination you're going grocery shopping again on Saturday and it should be mentioned the reason you were doing this because you were feeding the reporters you were back of a poll something yeah yeah there were so many news stories this is a little clip from a UPI wire and I mentioned you doesn't mention you as ruth painted mentioned you as mrs. Michael Payne but there were so many stories written in the aftermath of the assassination in some you're misidentified as marina Oswald's landlady no others you're described as her friend give us a sense of this overwhelming media attention that you suddenly received avid okay I have to say it was not the way it would be now now would be really overwhelming but the Eddie Barker from a call and asked if he could come out he said a drawing that he doesn't pay me ain't done himself and it was very civilized and arranged and so we were not flooded with people we did get a lot of calls and some of my family and friends were calling and wanted to be sure I was all right we were on a party line so that two two families had the same on the same line and well we couldn't hear what the other people were doing it meant that if I was on the line they couldn't use their phone so I called up to the phone company I said could I change my arrangement with the phone and she said oh yes you want an unlisted number no I just want a single line so the other people can get phone that's what it was that's what you were worried about it was other people being able to use the phone you were worried about tying up the line yeah that's precious let's let's take a look at another clip you mentioned Eddie Barker Eddie Barker sent a young broadcaster named West wise who was to become mayor of Dallas a few years later and he came and interviewed you at your home we have a clip of that I love this little snippet with Wes wise interviewing I don't think it will change it ultimately at all how about your neighbors Spanish I've only talked a few oven so baby at home but those who know media and understand via how I first got interested in this understanding many of them come forward to express sympathy or our marina and the children I'm speaking of now well perhaps for you and personally have any of them voluntarily come even spoken to you along those lives well I might say talking over the same thing you got close is when I talk and then I got this expression of understanding you did learn Spanish later on right at study Spanish later yes yeah learn as a flexible learn we we referenced your Warren Commission testimony earlier more pages are devoted to your testimony in the Warren Commission volumes than any other witness that is really just stunning yeah I'm really remarkable and then you paid something like $56 to get a copy of your own transcript which you then corrected for the drug Commission yeah well there were things like the person typing a transcript has to hear it and at one point the word he was there instead of Lee and I thought that was a mission because that needed to be corrected but what was that like sitting before the Commission I believe your testimony runs over 180 pages what was that life were they were they kind to you oh yeah very thoughtful very [Music] very thorough they were everybody there except senator Russell who was doing filibustering civil rights bill but they asked good questions they didn't know everything I was stunned because the lead lawyer to interview me didn't know that Michael Michael's family had money that Michael had family money as he was doing okay and apparently some of the early people who testified the business manager said we were just out for making all the money we could out of this and I thought little projection going on there isn't there and they but they clearly they were slow asking all the questions to find out what they wanted to know about the amount of money and everything I could say about where he was or what he did so they could they were I think they were pleased that I could answer the questions and you felt an active responsibility to help in every way possible sure yeah you know researchers will talk about this a little bit later but researchers today say you were too helpful with that investigation how can you be too helpful that's just the eager to please I guess you could say yeah eager to to try to do everything I could maybe we're talking about penance I was so sorry for what had happened and any part I had and I felt and I do feel and that's why I'm here that I need to do what I can for the public record and for people to know the Warren Commission published in their volumes a lot of your stuff we're looking at a couple of volumes right there one of them is your hallmark date book for 1963 your address book was also taken and I think every single person in your address book was contacted and interviewed by the FBI yes right but also on the right-hand side of the screen stamped top secret are are these letters post assassination letters that you wrote to marina and they're they're heartbreaking to read today because this was your friend someone you had grown very close to and in in millennial social media speak you were ghosted by marina I mean she your contact with her was very abruptly cut off and you had difficulty with that didn't she well yeah I was worried about about her what did she know and did she feel she had choices you know if she she was not familiar with the United States our position and how we do things and so I just felt she needed some some explanation some somebody to help but she really didn't want it and I think probably a Robert Oswald didn't want it he didn't take too kindly to Michael I think and and you know he didn't know these meilleur and the safe thing was to not pay attention up not to deal with me after this was over and and really you didn't see marina again you you met her one more time or you saw her twice I think that's the assassination tell us about that very last time because there's a there's a bittersweet conclusion to this when you simply realize that yeah all you shared was was this very tragic moment here this nice yes we tried to get there the chief she called me she now had a house and Richardson I think it wasn't it and wanted to say she was doing alright to reassure me and to do to show the house and and so I drove out and we we talked kids and what was going on and how nice the house was and all that for a while but you know the assassination Lou so our between us knowing this is the worst thing that had happened to either of us in our lives and so it really wasn't much fun to get together and I really didn't try to get together after that you were very accommodating with depressing with researchers there was one article in particular that was published in Redbook in July 1964 written by Jessamine West a Quaker writer who was also cousin to Richard Nixon that's sure Stan yes it's a it's a really dense article of you see the text on the page there imagine about eight or nine of those pages and it's that's the most personal portrait of you that was published prior to Thomas Malins book in in 2002 yeah in that article one thing that probably stands out more than anything else is the author Jasmine West asked you about the shoe of Lee Harvey Oswald and you said that you were actually glad or relieved that it happened how did I feel when he was shot I was glad you know I was pretty mad at him you know I can understand why he really felt bad but I thought he needed proper counsel and a lawyer and all that but that well anyway so Jessamine says I said he was shot she says there goes your halo okay yeah right okay goodbye you're aware of the fact that in the assassination literature you are often pinpointed as part of the conspiracy you were an FBI informant you were Oswald CIA handler there are family connections going back to the CIA when these things come up and I know you haven't been exposed to too many of them thanks darling but when they dare come up how do you respond to things like that ah well unfortunate that most of the people who were sure I was a CIA person or whatever don't expect me to tell the truth so they don't come by which is fine and of course there was all kinds of garbage on the Internet is yet some garbage it bothers me that that people are so mistaken but I am kind of protected that they really don't talk to me that much which is just fine with me there was one occasion in Nicaragua of all places where accusations about your involvement with the assassination really had an that Don utilises yes it was right there was a guy who wrote coup d'etat in America I forget the guys name but he had someone he knew in Nicaragua and I was working with a Quaker project trying to assist the poor in Nicaragua and my part was to go down occasionally and work with the office to see you know that we had staff that we're getting things to where they needed to go and I was trying to get acquainted and mind you I didn't have a word of Spanish it just talked about out of my depth but I was visiting with the at the expats they the people from other countries who were living in Nicaragua got together once a month for a potluck and I was there and this young woman sort of almost attacked me accusing me of being of CIA and you know I was really taken aback I know I think I reacted so much defensively you know I am NOT but that was the only situation where I felt that my my what I wanted to do meet people and work with this project was injured by me that perception of me and I didn't really understand it but the person who was working with us said to me one of our staff people said you know she had worked with witness for peace and the delegations that they brought down and they were instructed to try to identify who was the CIA agents in the group and if possible leave him in the core in Managua and not take him out to the countryside because sometimes after a group had been there some of the leaders that they introduced to the traveling US people were killed so yes they were very terrified of what the US might be doing over the years you haven't read too much of the assassination literature have you know people send me books and I tell you it's hard to read another thing that was a little hard for you was going back home again 2013 your house reopens as a museum yeah you probably never imagined that your home from 1916 there it would be a historic house what was that like there's a picture of you here from the opening in 2013 what was it like for you to go home again well there's a lot of distance there in time and I've worked by mail email with Kevin Kendra it was a director of the project and the archivist routed the Irving library and I was very impressed with what they had done and how they had presented the information and I was there yesterday and read it again it's very well written and very informative and write on every part of it and they did so much renovation of the building which had been rented by various people who did various things to it from the time we left and at 66 until when was it you bought it 2009 and then it opened later so yeah going back is well it's actually harder yesterday's and when when they did the opening that's it because I took more time to take it in and trees are growing back yard is still a lovely place for kids and that's it was a good house for us 6,000 bucks we want to take a few questions from the audience you should have question cards if you'll pass those to the end of your road we'll take a few while we're doing that I have one last video clip to play to kind of book into our story today we're going back to that original interview to hear a couple more spend a couple more moments with Ruth Paine from 1963 I think if he planned it ahead it was planned on very short notice that he suddenly realized he had an opportunity to no longer be a little guy but to be someone extraordinary I think probably I will always have terrible for following these feelings along with many secret servicemen and many people of the nation anyone who's ever had any contact with these people say if only I had done something but this was as far as I was concerned utterly without warning not only to me yet without explanation are those if only feelings still with you today oh yeah sure of course and I want to comment on how short I really have suspect that they didn't decide to do this until Thursday morning going to work the day before because the way I read his personality if he had already decided he was going to make this attempt to kill Kennedy he would have taken his pistol with him from the rooming house where it was what did he do after he shot Kennedy he went out of the School Book Depository and went to his room against God his pistol and then used it on tippet and I think it really was as for the moment when he suddenly realized that he could do this one question that was given to me before the program even started I guess anticipating I wouldn't ask about this someone wants to know about your contact with Jim Garrison in New Orleans Oh which is a good story dangerous man he was I I was subpoenaed for the grand jury and flew in and talked to the crasher you know this is not a realm that I knew much about they said no you know that you can't tell anybody what you learn here what we say here and I said well if it's news you're asking me questions about what I know and and how would I remember what you said that I was but anyway they decided I was not corporal not cooperating they had to explain to me well that's just hard as I said well finally I said if I learn something new here that I didn't know I will keep that quiet but if I know it it's my information and I'll tell it to anybody but then we went back to Garrison's office and there was a guy from ramparts magazine and someone else and Garrison had a chalkboard and he says this is where they were the CIA was training people in the swamps and I thought I'm surrounded by nutcases can't I have some lunch can I go home huh so a funny did come home but didn't get any lunch along the small we're talking about Jim Garrison someone wants to know your opinion of the Oliver Stone film about garrison well garbage pure garbage a very distressing because he does such a good job and that's in America but just terrible terrible film your carry a character bits based on you is featured in that film but the character is not named Ruth Payne that's right name Janet Williams did you have any responsibility for that why the name was changed no yeah I think he suspected I might not like what he was doing but he would have been right yeah did Oswalt ever talk about President Kennedy prior not to me he did summary notes that I learned later and and I guess he did to Michael to that that he said to Michael he was the best president he was in his lifetime and but there was nothing negative about Kennedy that we heard from him I don't think he was shooting at Kennedy I think he was shooting at the office of the president how did your relationship with Michael change after the assassination uh well he moved back in we had had a the one-year separation that's necessary before you filed for divorce at that time in in Texas and we had just filed and in fact when the officers came to the door I thought are they bringing divorce papers what's going on and so it that was just barely filed for divorce but Michael came back and it very supportive and it was nice stuff in there and we tried again to to make the marriage work until 1970 when we were actually divorced then there's a question about Robert Oswald I know you didn't spend much time with Robert house waltrip Robert wrote relatively negatively of you after the assassination I think you're aware that he didn't trust you he didn't trust right Michael impressions of him from that weekend at all oh no none I don't think we're even in the same room I think they separated everybody any idea why Robert Oswald would have such animosity towards you and Michael no how did this event affect your children's lives well they were really too young I don't think my daughter she's actually going with us as you saw in the picture to the police station but I don't think she has any memory of it she was barely four and my younger or the younger one my son doesn't remember at all I think they would rather it never happened you know took up their mother's time and they they're they're not very involved in and with it that they have relatives and friends who are interested more than they are and getting the story there's a question about Oswald's wedding ring which of course is on display downstairs in the museum you're the one that gave that to the Secret Service yes Secret Service came out and said Marina has asked for the wedding ring and she said it was in a dresser there and we found it in a little cup that belonged to her grandmother who was her first real parent will person that really helped her when she was a baby and so give it to the Secret Service to take Jim marina did Oswald ever discuss his decision why he chose to return to the u.s. from Russia oh he did at that one gathering but that I went to that first party he spent some time saying that you know he he was he felt he didn't have much freedom to go where he wanted to go we wanted to be able to own a gun and they wouldn't let him unless he was part of a militia and he felt the restrictions that the space-like for the apartment was small and and yet he was better off than most Soviets at that point because they provided him with an apartment so he he was he did this didn't like the way they were running things didn't like it here either tell us about the driving lessons that you gave awesome ok you know fundamentally he was looking for work and there's a lot of things you can't take in a job if you can't drive and he he went right into the Marine Corps from high school young and his seventeen and then like soon after he came out he went to the Soviet Union and the Soviet Union doesn't have a lot of young people with a gun with the cars the way we do here so he never learned he was in the Marine Corps those two years but they weren't in the business of training teaching him to drive so we we found a parking lot that was empty on Sundays and he was there over the weekend on Sunday the parking lot was empty week you know my father was an insurance man I didn't want to take this guy on the open road because or let him drive on the road because he didn't have a learner's permit even yes and so we were in this empty parking lot and I could tell that he was just new handling a car it was just not familiar to him but he was getting it now I also wanted only to talk to me in Russian but I didn't know the vocabulary for driving a car and so I talked to him in English on that one which he accepted we're running a little short on time so we're just gonna have one more question tonight it's it's a good one though because we've talked about how you haven't let the assassination define your life yeah and this question is about your life after the assassination and what you have done with yourself over these last okay six years yeah well yeah I've been pleased with my life generally there in Irving for a while I found a roll group of friends I love to be with and we were working on civil rights issues and they asked me to start a preschool I followed mr. Oliver here who was teaching preschool before me and they are and started this lovely little just sixteen kids preschool with three three years to five years and used the Montessori method which I took training in in 60 1966 and had a internship year in fact in a school and in Dallas and so that was just oh my favorite teaching job ever it was really nice we had and we had people coming because we were unusual not only being Montessori but being a very integrated preschool and the the white kids were bused in school and it's a Montessori system the kids have choices they can go and pick up things that they want to work with and then they have a place for their own workspace and you it's sort of like except the rules about how to handle things and then can just do it so when we'd have a visitor like I had someone's come from some other town and I could talk with them and they were surprised that everything just went right on I didn't have to be teaching or in charge or telling them what to do they could observe that it just worked which is one of the wonderful characteristics of a Montessori system I want to thank you for spending time with us tonight it's been amazing and a great honor please join me in thanking [Applause] Thank You Steven for your good question my hands are cold as ice [Applause] you

Channel: SixthFloorMuseum

Views: 87,114

Rating: 4.5467 out of 5

Keywords: Lee Harvey Oswald, Ruth Paine, Sixth Floor Museum, Dealey Plaza, Dallas, Texas, Paine House Museum, Stephen Fagin, Michael Paine, Edwin Walker, General Edwin Walker, Oak Cliff, Irving, Robert Oswald, June Oswald, Rachel Oswald, Marguerite Oswald, garage, conspiracy, conspiracies, conspiracy theory, CIA, FBI, Warren Commission, search warrant, Fair Play for Cuba, New Orleans, Texas School Book Depository, rifle, Mannlicher Carcano, Dallas police, Jim Garrison, Thomas Mallon, JFK

Id: kypq5Fs_5PE

Length: 69min 56sec (4196 seconds)

Published: Fri Dec 13 2019