The Journey Home 12 12 11 - Dr. Allen Hunt Former Methodist

good evening and welcome to the journey home my name is Marcus Grodi euros for this program each week EWTN allows me to bring into your living rooms men and women who with a desire to grow closer to our Lord Jesus Christ found themselves being guided by the spirit to open their hearts and minds to the beauty of the Catholic Church and tonight we have a guest who how many years has it been since you were on the program probably three three years Allen hunt is back on the program he's a former mega church pastor I'm anxious to get into that discussion about mega churches but he's here to share his journey again he's been on the program before so his previously given more detailed description of your journey is available at ewtn.com for listening but Allen it's great to have you back thank you for now yes sir what I normally do when I have a guest back is what often happens after the program is over we have a number of emails of questions that we've saved up that we can you know place before you a bit what I would like to do in a moment though is ask you to kind of summarize your journey again for the audience case they didn't hear your first time but before we get into that yeah this is you of megachurch it doesn't say former lutheran pastor former Presbyterian pastor from her Baptist perform a mega church pastor I'm sure somebody out in the audience is wondering what are we talking about here well I had the privilege the last eight years that I was a Protestant pastor I was a Methodist pastor and there are mega churches that are non-denominational evangelical there's also a handful that are in the denominations and so for the last eight years I was a pastor of a church that had 8,000 members and 5,000 folks on Sunday mega churches the folks that study that kind of stuff would say that really mega churches if you have 2,000 people or more on Sunday kind of an average attendance not membership but how many people actually show up that that kind of categorizes a different dimension of what a church is like so really technically if you want to do a lot of Catholic parishes exactly would have more than two thousand people on a Sunday so they would fall into that category for folks that study that kind of write up right right and it's definitely not something that you sideyou and a couple guys I'll tell you what let's go start a minute when every fun it's a building plan we gotta build a church that will seat two thousand plus it starts small and grows for a variety of reasons yeah yeah and it actually there are some folks that really kind of they'll tell you the people that will coach you on how to start new churches will say you really need to think about begin with the end in mind as Stephen Covey would say and if you're thinking about if you see a talent will have that kind of demand kind of supply demand kind of theory you better start preparing to be a megachurch because you're not going to be 200 you need to kind of launch thinking about that ours was a church that went back to 1831 actually so it was a long-standing church that as the suburbs opened up in Atlanta it just kind of took off because of some of the dynamic ministries I remember one of those Church growth rules back from the 80s when I was a Presbyterian pastor you know it was something like on a given Sunday if your sanctuary is 80% full yeah you're full you're full yeah and it's time to build or start an eighth it either start another service or build or start a satellite yep that was the old principle and this always this idea on growth which you know maybe later we can talk about from a Catholic perspective yeah we do with those ideas because usually in our situation the Catholic Church you might have a church that has 2,000 members but one priests yeah it's a whole different mindset in terms of what parish life is like in terms of what the clergy do and don't do in terms of just really the DNA of the culture that's been one of you have time yeah that's been one of the learning moments for me in these four years since I converted is the DNA in the Catholic parish is very different from the DNA in a typical Protestant parish particularly in an evangelical world and I kind of liken it to one of them's a saltwater pond and one of them's a freshwater pond they both have fish and they both have a kwatak life but it's a different kind of system it's been a learning curve for me it's been fun well in important part of that is what what has the Holy Spirit as it says in Vatican 2 in graced in the hearts of our separated brethren that's for our renewal right we don't want to bring everything home right because so that's made for saltwater yeah not for yes exactly yeah and when you do that it messes things up yeah and we see the result of that in some ways in the church today in our letter local parishes but yet there are good things and we can look at some of those when we get into that though Charlotte I've been distracting us the audience know little bit about your journey well I was born and raised Methodist and my grandfather my uncle was a Methodist pastor my grandfather was Memphis pastor back about seven or eight generations actually and I never really intended to be a pastor became one and I left the business world became a pastor went to seminary Emory in Atlanta were Georgians and pastored a little Church and after that I had some seminary professors who really wanted me to consider teaching to help train Methodist pastors and so they helped me get into the ph.d program up at Yale in New Testament and early Christian history with that emphasis on early Christian history and so when did you cross paths with Paul Thigpen it sounds like no I were there at different times oh yeah we actually didn't meet him too I came back to Georgia which is kind of funny right so I go up to name really I had I had no exposure prior to that to the Catholic Church and when I was admitted there were four people who were admitted into the program that year they was a very small they take a couple hundred applicants and boil it down to four there was a Jesuit and a Dominican Presbyterian and me as the Methodist and so I figured going in that my closest ally and friend in that group would be the Presbyterian pastor because I never even met a priest well the Dominican I became very close friends I was still at this day we vacationed together I served on the board of the seminary that he's the head of were very very intimate friends and hey because it became a part of our family and over the course of the three years that we were in New Haven he wasn't really trying to help us become Catholic we were just good friends but we got exposed to the riches of the Catholic world the history the Saints the just the beauty of the liturgy in the mass and God used some of those experiences to plant seeds it wasn't sort of a defining moment there like Paul on the Damascus Road but to plant seeds that over the course of being a Methodist pastor for 20 years as I reflected and I'm a slow learner Marcus it took me a long time to kind of really process some of that and let it be what I be sure angry oh yeah exactly but but one of the defining moments that it was early on was father Stephen came to me I guess we'd been up in New Haven for a year year and a half and it was Lent and he said I got an idea and I said well what was that because well I like for the two of us to go out to give some linton lectures for some cloistered nuns they live about 40 miles outside New Haven so that sounds great I like new adventures but my first question is what's a cloistered nun and he looked I said really I have no idea that I mean I know there's flying nuns and I never sing nuns I had no idea and so he describes very cultured pearls yes as a cloistered nun yeah well made my private world of the south of a Protestant I mean I don't get it so we went out there and for five or six weeks you know I think a Finance Initiative for five or six weeks he and I gave lectures half hour each where I would talk about John Wesley the founder of the Methodist movement and he would talk about Aquinas and on the notion of holiness and sanctification and perfection and how we're being made holy and we would compare those and use the letters of Paul to help the the nuns see how I don't mean to interrupt but yeah when you were telling you about four of you gathered yeah you know what was the judge as a Dominican the mastership in the Presbyterian you thought you're you'd be close to the president I would have told you yes no way it has Methodists in their theology and spirituality are much yes sir yeah mm definitely Calvin and that's what I realized embarrassing shame on me for not really paying attention when I was in seminary I guess I'd never really I never really understood that but in the in that time in New Haven that became very apparent to me in that time instructing the nuns there were several things that were significant about that that I can still experience those lectures today because the first time I went through and this was a completely different world to me and when he described a 40 or 50 lady they live on this property they don't ever leave they're committed to to prayer and I well so they do know their life is a life of prayer Allah Wow I've got no category for that so we go in and we walk in the first day and I didn't realize they didn't tell me until later I was the first male ever to go behind the cloister wall to instruct them he wasn't an ordained Catholic priest so it was an extraordinary privilege and I didn't I didn't realize the providential grace that God was pouring out into my life and we walked in and all the nuns were assembled and they were from age 25 to age 95 and there was a radiance off of their faces that I'd never encountered it was like a physical manifestation of holiness and it was very unsettling to me because I've never been in any kind of situation like that and I realized I didn't I didn't I didn't realize then but over the years I began to reflect on it really is a different world and there's there's a there's a holiness in the Catholic Church and in the Eucharist that's not present anywhere else and it took me a long time to really reflect on that and so just through those lectures God planted some seeds in me and then a number of experiences over the years the kind of outline for me a number of key things were finally realized I've got a problem I'm not methods I'm Catholic by that time you were senior pastor I was some of them and talk about that I mean so you were you're you're facing this decision yeah yeah in fact you should reflect on on something that we've we've kind of been dealing with in our work in the coming home Network International which our reason for existence is to help Protestant ministers make that last step into the journey and you do it well well we're not out trying to convert clerk now but the point is we're dealing with guys that are in a situation just like you're talking about all of a sudden they recognize the beauty and the truth and the difference of the Catholic Church but they are in a position of leadership in a non Catholic nomination and one of the problems is remember there's a story when Jesus told his apostles now don't take the front seat at the wedding feast because somebody might come along who's supposed to have that seat and kick you out you take the bottom seat until you're invited up and the truth is that's how you began as a young minister on the bottom that you were probably one of those horseback riding Methodist pastors I went from church to church right yeah you know what they called hit circuit riders circuit right-hander you are I mean you probably have two or three churches that's very common amongst Methodists and yet by invitation of the people that responded to your ministry you're at the top and so now at that position you get confronted with the Catholic Church how do you deal with that that's a hard that's a rich question it's hard and it's rich I guess I would answer in two ways the first was it was an extraordinary privilege to be the pastor of that church the senior pastor is an extraordinary group of people probably the only method church in the country they had a Pregnancy Resource Center a very pro-life put our money where our mouth was kind of Methodist Church there aren't I mean the Methodist Church doesn't have a stand on abortion of any real consequence so it was a real it was a real privilege at the same time I mean as you mentioned for a lot of a lot of the particularly men that come through although there was actually a female Methodist pastor in Georgia who became Catholic a year two ago but most of the people who come through the coming home network or men you know for most of us that's what we've been trained to do that's where our lats how we're supporting our family so there's this odd mix of I feel called to do this but then it becomes your your job and your family depends on it and so it's not as easy as it sounds to leave that for me it's funny I don't know that I would have converted if I hadn't been a mega church pastor though because it was at in that where I really began to reflect on what is worship and it took me all the way back to that experience with the nuns in our conversation with the nuns if we have shared our first time I probably don't really have time to share in the second visit where we were when I was reflecting with the nuns on what is the Eucharist and they were really pressing me hard on that and I had no theology of communion or the Eucharist as amethyst and the more I was in that mega church the more I began to feel very uncomfortable with the role that I had with the role the senior pastor not me in it but the role the senior pastor in those because so much of it revolves around that pastor his personality his ability to preach and usually folks will even refer to it oh that's Marcus's church oh that's Bob's Church it's no longer the name of the church it's Alan stirred and that sense of surely there's more to this than me I mean if it's all riding on me we don't have much because I know me and I'm not all that and I began to reflect on what the nuns had taught me and I hadn't really talked about or really thought about the centrality of the Eucharist and how that's the mortar that brings all the bricks together is the holiness of the body and blood the real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist that's worship maybe if you and I were to take a third century I think it's Peter Kreeft and Jesus shock if you and I were to take a third century Christian with us to church today in a Protestant in the Protestant inclusion community they'd walk out and go that was kind of interesting that was good music and that was some really interesting teaching but when are we going to have church worship without the Eucharist and what is that and so I'm reflecting on that and I finally realized I've got a problem here this this is too much and I don't know what you call that but for me it was it was very unsettling well when I was a small church pastor by force old church 185 member church country church the Presbyterian Church you know I felt my responsibility was to minister to those people to bring them to our Lord Jesus help him grow in their faith because I was a Calvinist but still sure in that whole concept but honestly I can't imagine the pressure that would have been on you I've seen it in my my brothers in those churches because now there's a different thing you've got a church that seats how many three thousand three thousand right people you've got staff you've got the bills you've got the utilities and plus even on top of all that there's this constant pressure of growth hmm jesus said I'm the vine you are the branches go produce fruit what was fruit in the evangelical world it was new converts and that was the fruit so with that pressure and that all came down to that messy you came on Sunday morning plus you sit designing worship the music you didn't want to call it entertainment but it's got to be engaging in inspiring and interactive and yeah because if those people are driving into your parking lot and then they turn around go to the church down the street no no no no they got to be coming here right I mean that was the pressure you were under as a pastor right yeah and it's it that was that was unsettling too in terms of not so much that the pressure in some ways that was kind of exhilarating because it was a memos and all-consuming they had a school they had eleven or twelve hundred kids with the school the church staff he had a staff of 400 people and there was there was a real kind of vibrancy of that but the one of the things that was really tough for me was within five miles in either direction we had the largest Presbyterian Church in the country which was an evangelical and like a church and then we had one of the largest churches of any kind in the country in the other direction and there was always this we got differentiate ourselves it was almost like marketing theory in terms of how what's our brand and any beginning to think is where is Jesus in this and while there was lots there were lots of good life transformation there was lots of good stuff happening for me it became a not I wouldn't call it an empty experience but it became a very troubling experience in number ways yeah that old thing about does the does the end justify the means and there were books and books and books about these church growths and and it's not only how you mark it yet it's not all bad and so on the end you want to bring them to Jesus right yeah I mean that's a good end yeah but what do you do you bring in three juggling clowns riding on donkeys juggling torches in or in it are you comfortable with that and I think maybe I kind of boil it down when I want to talk to folks is that in some ways in the Protestant world in particularly the megachurch world we expect the church to conform to us I'm going to find a church that I like that my family likes I feel comfortable Marcus brings a good message I want the church to conform to me and as I began to really reflect on I want a church I need to conform to the church I'm the church's in the problem I'm the problem I've got the sin problem and I need to conform to what the Church teaches rather than I'm gonna go find people who agree with me so that I feel comfortable fact there was a book out there I think I still have in myself the 12 keys to a growing guy to get everybody and galleon right but I remember that it was almost like assuming that the people are coming to your church because they expect the church to conform to them how do you evaluate what you're doing right to match what they're looking for yeah that's that's the hard part that's the hard part of me today and I mean can't Ken's a wonderful guy in a really bright guy and he would and he would say those are those are the ways that you help people encounter the grace of Jesus Christ but sometimes what happens you take Bill Hybels at Willow Creek Church up in Chicago hybels creates one of the biggest churches in the country and one may have been one of the two or three biggest churches in the whole country non-denominational independent mega church lots of bells and whistles and lights and bands and stuff and to his credit after having done that for 10 or 15 maybe 20 years he realized you know what I'm afraid that our conversion level is about surface deep and he went through a complete sort of Metanoia studying doing work with people to figure out okay is there any life change here or is this just really interesting stuff and re-engineered the whole church to kind of rethink how do we really are we entertaining folks are we really kind of lead them to Christ so that's a challenge that's why I'm Catholic don't say that there's a challenge the Eucharist man there's restarting the wheel yeah reinvent them are we that are we the first Christians who ever lived is it really about marketing and and and what we can do or is there is there a rich legacy of 2000 years and the real presence of Jesus in Eucharist and the more creative these mega church pastors get the more they end up coming back to trying to kind of approximate what already resides in the Catholic Church I was speaking at a church things up in Michigan somewhere I was a Catholic Church and it was a fairly big new sanctuary that could see the thousand people on a Sunday and I remember sitting there thinking that imagining myself as still a Protestant minister trying to convince a board to build a church this big and that as I envisioned it you know here's two copies of your book make a church pastor and I'm vision there's the Catholic Church of a thousand members and then there's the Protestant Church of a thousand members and what would be in that pastor's mind every week to plan to to meet those people the difference and one thing across my mind is in the Protestant church you're going everybody to be in the front row so they can hear your sermon because that's what it's about right in the Catholic Church it doesn't matter where you're sitting because it's not about the message but what's happening on the altar it's about what's happening on the long term you could be the only person in that church sitting in the back row in the corner and it's just fine in the Catholic Church I mean the prize in church only one person showed up what are you going to do you're going to give your whole survey out what are you going to do yeah one person shows a mechanic your hat you've got Jesus yeah and that brings us back to the Eucharist and it's really the issue that they really opened your heart in had that's sort of sort of the core of it we got an email Glen from Missouri was it difficult for Alan to transition from ministry in the Methodist Church to being a Catholic parishioner in the pew that's been an interesting journey as much as I loved to preach it hasn't been that it hasn't been that difficult because once I had that turning moment in my mind I knew that I really had no choice and when you said his face toward Jerusalem I mean when you when you really set your face toward I mean I knew God was calling me home I had no reservation no qualms about that it was it was clear in my mind there's been some other bumps and bruises a long way but that one that one really has not been that difficult for me I I love one mass is it's the best part of the day try to go as many days in the week as I can go that was a crazy I go to church every day that's great and it all rides on it on what's happening in the altar I'm not I'm not really worried about is there going to be a good music today is there going to be a good homily today it's about that physical and spiritual yearning and craving for the body and blood of Jesus so it's been a change sure but a debt that's that's been one of the least difficult parts have you had to go through the kind of soul-searching with which many of the ministers that we deal with go through trying to understand okay Lord I thought you called me back then right what was that all about have you had to go through that kind of soul-searching you know I don't think that I'm deep or smart enough to be yeah I I don't know I mean I think it you know I have sort of a unique ministry now because I because I have this radio show this on mainstream talk radio is not on Catholic radio or Christian Right Christian radio stations and I think part of the appeal of the show is here's a guy who was called did all this and yet became Catholic and I think people who aren't Christians and people who aren't Catholic find that interesting and it gives me a privilege to be able to engage them really with evangelization in a different kind of way I'm not sitting there trying to convince them become Catholic just talking about life and so I'm not a regret person I never have been I see that God has used all that to to do what he wants to do and I try to cooperate with it and not become an obstacle to his grace and and that's what we I don't like I can explain it but you accept it but that's what we hope yeah man discover on the journey because I often they'll go through a period of self-examination and maybe even a questioning well did I miss your God you know that I made a mistake but rather we we remind them all right you've never been yeah apart from the will of little right and if anything he was calling you back then to get the experiences in the Train and the maturity so that when you do come home right you've got something very valuable to share with the church what else oh you know I'm not sure this I'm a pretty simple guy and I'm not sure that I would have ever been able to convert how to not become a pastor because I I was I grew up in the faith in the Methodist Church and then when I was to high school we moved and I never really reconnected with that for with my faith and some out of college and I started dating my wife-to-be and her faith was very important to her and she said you know you're gonna have to go to church if you're going to date me because my face important to me and if I'm going to be important to you you're going to need to go to church if I hadn't had that I'm not sure I don't think I had the ability just to kind of show up at church I was either all in or all out I was not kind of a show up and maybe occasionally serve on the Finance Committee kind of guy and so I think I think God called me to that to begin the sanctification process and then there's some other good stuff that happened along the way but but really I think it was to get my attention and then ultimately as I delve deeper than to call me home into the church but I don't know my friends out there fellow pastors but to a certain extent received all the same information that you've received but haven't made the same move no absolutely absolutely what would you say is the difference why I made a move they haven't yeah what would you think is it omits it's a mystery of God's great yeah I don't know that I don't know that I can explain that I mean that's that's actually one of the questions we need to ask you know because I don't know guys that have seen the same information yeah and it just doesn't hit them right a mandate hasn't hit that right recognize that excuse me there's one church yeah and one baptism one faith and one Lord as it as Paul said yeah I mean you would think whether you would think that that we would reflect when we were Protestants there's 33,000 brands across and Christianity in America and it's growing by the day 33,000 just in America and you'd think we would reflect on really know and I mean Jesus praise in John 17 as you know that they may be perfectly won not just that they may be one they may be perfectly one how in the world I live with that disconnect for years and years and years and I kind of spiritualize it well we're all sort of one in spirit well he uses body he uses bride he uses family those are all bodily physical images those aren't that sort of spiritual eyes new on I mean that those are real concrete things and I don't think we ever really took that unity as seriously as process and I know I didn't when you were confronted with a verse like first timothy 3:15 the pillar of bulbasaur truth is the church would you as a Methodist of seeing that as Methodism as your local mega church or the invisible yeah yeah that's how I would it you know the funny thing is I know you have the the book on the the verses I never saw and that's the right that's the right title right well it's the one I'm trying to get done yeah set up no that doesn't anytime to embarrass here in front of everyone its front everybody bugs but I didn't even pay attention that verse to be honest it was really it was through you because I went to as I was reflecting on what I was doing believe it or not I went and I taught preaching at the Dominican House of studies in in DC they they asked me to come because because my friend father Stephen became the Dean there and he said would you come do like a workshop at night for a week while your kids on spring break you can come to DC kids y'all can go around DC in the day and at night for our seminarians would you do something on preaching because we're the order of preachers and so to do kind of a little mini course to supplement what they were already doing and so I gave some of those talks in one day I was there it gave sort of a talk on he and I talked about Aquinas and Wesley for the whole group which included a lot of late students as well and afterward a young will not forgotten about this till just now they young woman comes up to me and she says you sound really Catholic and she hand me a little pamphlet or a card of some kind she said Gianna check out this website that was your website she said I think you'd find this interesting and I so I kind of stuck it in my coat I didn't even come back to it for on couple years probably and I went to look and I found the forum there at coming home network I found the forum with the questions that I think Dave now moderates I don't know who was doing at the end and it was through that that I came across that first Timothy passes now it's kind of interesting when everyone paid attention of that yeah but I've been I would I would have just sort of said I there's one sort of global universal ethereal kind of invisible church that that has any meaning to what reality is I think it is interesting and although getting this program but to reflect on why is it that certain verses that we just ignored yeah I didn't even I don't remember seeing that verse ever yeah I don't honestly and so yeah I honestly do not remember that ever Colossians 1:20 for you know the poll completed the suffering of our Lord Jesus and I don't want to do it as a as a presbyterian all those first I notice those yet because I how was it handled well you know actually no though I don't think Protestants can handle has a process the whole notion of suffering right and there that was that was it because when we're in New Haven I against that's a longer story but at the end of day I had to have my whole colon removed and I got melanoma in the same year and we suffered as a family man we had two miscarriages in a three-year period I had two surgeries my wife had two miscarriages we're a thousand miles away from home and I had no categories and no ability as a methis to process that kind of suffering and it was through it into the plan of God it did willed okay it didn't purpose and that was where father Stephen in the Catholicism he's beginning to expose me to I began to discover Catherine of Siena Teresa of ávila and all of a sudden they were helping me process this and realize the redemptive nature of suffering and what God could be doing through that that was it that was a major moment for me that's why I began to realize boy my theology is pretty thin there's more out there than I've ever been exposed to it you know one of the verses that was a verse I never saw was that Romans 8 passage that says that by the spirit we call him Abba we're sons and heirs provided we suffer and provide ahead we suck at the glory we receive is provided we suffer what you do with it's not it's not how do we theologically deal with suffering if it comes around right no right it's not the problem of pain yeah suffering is a necessary part of our journey when you look at all the spiritual writers which I know Methodists were more into than we Presbyterians but you know Jonathan cross Teresa of ávila suffering is a part of the stage yes right I'm growing in with our Lord Jesus well let's take a pause here and we'll come back in a little bit welcome back to the journey home we're having a good old time I just have talking about whatever comes to our mind Alan hunt stuff we didn't cover the first time you were here but this is a good stuff yes to me it's the it's the ramifications of this kind of a decision we talked about the fact that we know people that have gotten all the same information but for whatever reason in the mystery of God they've not come home and the truth is every single Catholic parish is surrounded by people right that are either fallen away Catholics or are imperfectly members of the church if they're baptized in the name of our Lord but the Father Son Holy Spirit they are a part of the family but not perfect allness of not fullness so and then they're also easily within 100 feet of every Catholic parish there's going to be complete non-believers sure which is amazing yeah I mean there's that still amaze you and America we have people that don't even know the Lord yes well I mean and that number is growing Wednesday as a percentage of the population its was it seventy-five percent of the population now identifies themselves as a Christian in some category and I was making twenty years ago thing was eighty five percent so that number is shrinking more folks are kind of doing it doing it I do it myself there in that unknown category it's not that they're atheist this is I I can't do it myself I don't belong to any organized group I can figure it out for myself and I'm wondering if the thirty thousand plus divided groups is what's made it even more difficult as or easy yeah for those outside the church to say why should I yeah you got it out of you guys camera guys can't get along a you arguing you quit when you say well it's all about the Bible you don't agree on what the Bible says I figured that out not when I was a pastor but when I started doing the talk radio thing is that people that's extremely confusing and off-putting to people that aren't Christians I just you know I was just looking for a drink of water I wasn't looking for all this I was looking for a fire hydrant and he used they I always remember baptizing a woman who came as an adult when I was still met this church to faith and I never saw her again and I called her up after a couple weeks and I said I was call her Margaret I said Margaret you doing okay she said yeah and I said it's checking in because you had what I thought was a pretty significant experience you were baptized we became a Christian and she's yeah I got home and I started getting calls and visits from people from all these different churches and they would tell me that I was wrong I'd done this wrong I shouldn't have done this I did it because this was method and it she just got peppered by people who were Baptist and seventh-day admin saw that she and she says too much I wasn't looking for more strife in my life I was looking for peace and it's just brought more tension in my life not less never came at I know I've mentioned this on the program before but it almost seems like that's one of the the common strategies of the devil yeah at first he tries to stop something at if you can't stop it then it tries to undercut it or belittle it and if you can't do that in the Andes floods the market yeah going to I'm gonna get a Bible yeah so you go into a bookstore it there's 80 83 thousand yep and all the other babysitter's by man it is been revival yeah there they are worth so what am I supposed to do with all this well which church honest I yeah yeah and then it becomes just a you and I have discussed individualism individualism before it just becomes a consumer decision I'm going to find the one that I feel most comfortable with and that's kind of how Americans we make our decisions and most things I'm gonna buy the car I'm most comfortable with them and pick the neighborhood I'm most comfortable with I'm going to go to the restaurant I like the food at churches just another consumer decision I'm going to find a place I like come on you you've ended up and talk a bit about you you're in evangelization now and one of the issues is going to be with all those options out there right why the Catholic Church truth mm-hmm yeah so but first tell the audience what you're doing now in terms of yeah your gifts yeah I do the talk radio ministry on WSHH WSHH be in Atlanta which is the most listened to talk station in America so I have a really extraordinary privilege there for three hours on Sunday to look at life but to bring in my my faith as a stand as a stand point as opposed to most of the shows are about Republicans and Democrats so that kind of gives me a voice but then back in June I started partnering with Matthew Kelly and dine at the dynamic Catholic Institute and we're really about evangelization and we're about in addition to the speaking and the writing that he and I do about invigorating the faith of Catholics and of parishes in helping them to evangelize using the books we do the parish book program at Christmas every year where parishes can buy his book or mine and also we've got one by Scott Hahn and one by Father Jim Martin at cost because 32% of people that come to Mass at Christmas it's the only time while you're they come and so why not give them a gift of a cheap book that's a Catholic book in the hopes because I mean just like your email is filled ours is filled with folks that say you know I haven't been to mass in 20 years the parish gave me a book so anyway that's that's what we're doing a dynamic Catholic and so I work with Matthew and then do my radio show and every three years I come up here on your show get it out I I'm a little hesitant to mention this because I've tried very carefully not to take advantage of my own program to promote my own books right but I just finished writing my second novel how did your own which is about called pillar and bulwark I had written one a number of years ago called firm a foundation right which is the story of a Protestant minister and I'm actually read that one I didn't know he had a second one this is the sequel okay it's kind of what happened to the first guy entire strikes back yeah well to start similar but part of the goal the reason I began writing fiction was because my father only read fiction right how do I get him to be open to the church yet so I wrote him stories storage yeah so that's what the new book at pillar Inbal works so here we are in the middle of December can anybody wants to to look at that B could go to EWTN that's great stores but it gets back to what you've talked about that you communicate in weightings did he give away with its radio television Internet we look we've been given a lot of arrows in our quiver right to use the biblical image of how to reach people yeah we talked about me pope john paul ii called us to the New Evangelization and that's such a big word and when you and I have lunch together nobody ever mentions the word evangelization I mean nobody uses that word we make it more complicated than it is it really is just giving a gift I see my radio show as a gift some people might argue with that but I see it as a gift to the culture I see you're riding in my riding in our parish book program as gifts because it's really that's what being an evangelist is as Catholics is simply giving people the gift either of a book or of an invitation you know why don't you come to Mass with me on Christmas Eve and then afterward I'll buy you dinner just a simple invitation because it to me I know it changed my daughter's life a year after I came home my older daughter was off at college his first time that she'd ever been away where she had to pick hey am I going to go to church and be my dad's not going to be my pastor if I do and we kind of my wife and I kind of underestimated what a transition that was for her and she was kind of struggling she'd tried every kind of imaginable campus ministry in church and she was struggling and her the Resident Advisor on her Hall she was a senior my daughter seryan was it was a freshman that that Reza advisor who by the way is discerning to become a nun now came up to my daughter and said Sarah and how you doing Sarah so I won't do it okay and she said have you have you found kind of your faith place here at college and Stan goes well now funny you should ask how to really heaven and the Resident Advisor said you know what why don't you go to Mass with me I'm Syrian goes okay I'll try that and she said when is it and she said it was five o'clock on Sunday Sharon's is perfect because then I can sleep late I can get up I go to Mass with him but think of the responses that that resident had she could have said well I'll pray for you she could have said well I hope that works out for you or she could have said let me know if I can do anything for you instead she said why don't you go to Mass with me this Sunday simple imitation my daughter went to Mass that day that day in Mass she went again it one holy catholic apostolic church the readings were doing here are the same readings that are being done in Sydney Australia and in Johannesburg South Africa I it and she began the journey home because that one resident Iser listened and then invite her wouldn't you say that in fact that is the number one way the catholics ought to Evangel invite them absolute mass absolutely and and don't just pick some random mass pick the one it's your favorite whatever your favorite mass is so that you're going to be joyful and excited about being there and that will be contagious to a friend who maybe has never been to mass before because sometimes it can be a little challenging if you've never been to mass it's kind of going into a calculus class rather than addition and subtraction and so you're excited about it and you're experiencing it with them that's contagious for them you know I would say that and I'm speaking from my own experience that often the most difficult thing about making the step in to the Catholic Church there's lots of doctrines but one of the issues is that when you do attend a mass you have in a clue what's going on yeah and often no one helps you right figure out what's not like an Apple computer answer friendly yeah go on plug it in and all your imagine going to there are some supermarkets or let's say the department stores you go to and you can't figure how or anything yeah but you don't necessarily want somebody to grab your shoes you come in the door and take charge of that you don't like that yeah I just want this place be a little simpler yes yeah and and that's what I've often thought at many Catholic prayers I go to that it we need to beat the the missile at isn't always the most helpful thing yeah to help you through what's happening because he even even got a foot between yeah and it's not linear for somebody's never been there before and here we are with the new mass yeah yeah in the middle of this so we was actually a great time to evangelist because we're all kind of figuring it out yeah so that way if I go for the first time I don't feel conspicuous because nobody else around me knows what they're doing either so it is and that that's one thing that that in the Protestant world particularly in the evangelical world I think that's we talked about the growth of mega churches that's that's the main reason mega churches have grown as they made church really simple right they they've reduced it to really simple base SiC stuff there's not lots of complications and you don't come in and immediately get put on a committee to then vote on stuff and you get exposed to the governance and they've kind of taken the governance part out this is just show up have a cup of coffee let us entertain you and we'll tell you about Jesus and for our culture there's a lot of people really it's about when you're drawn to those kind of mega churches it's very simple and it's about me right in other words it's about my relationship with God it's going to make churches kind of optional better about myself it's going to help me clarify some areas but I got to clean up a little bit so that I can feel better about me I mean that's really what it's about and I think the other thing is in that making it simple and about you one of the ways that it's about you is because it's so large you can be anonymous nobody is going to immediately say Marcus we need you to come be in us your mantra is you can go in you can kind of sit on the periphery and a lot of people do I mean that's it's those kinds of folks that don't show up in the smaller churches because as soon as you walk in everybody's all over you but in a mega church you can kind of you can negotiate it on your terms and in the Catholic world hospitality is not always our strength and it in some ways that's good because I can go in and not feel badgered and peppered by people but sometimes it's helpful to at least feel like okay somebody doesn't notice somebody does care I mean if I'm grieving the loss of a child or I've just lost my job I when I go and when I go to Mass I'd like for somebody to make it easy for me to figure out how can I get a little bit of help and encouragement here in some ways that's where I think mega churches and large Catholic churches are similar in that yeah you go to a mega church you're not really expecting the ushers to say oh you're a new person right yeah because it's hard because there's so many you can't tell who not in there forever or is brand new right and I think that can be true in large Catholic churches you don't know if the person sitting next to you has been a member for all their life and went to another mass you never saw him because right first time weird the same man together so that was one of the best parts for me was was figuring that out because when if you go to a church where they only have one worship service or buy a whole rest the weights going to how come you weren't there but when there's six masses in my travel schedule speaking schedule it's all over the map and so I may hit five o'clock Saturday one time than the one o'clock Sunday Mass and nobody's ever going I haven't seen you in a while it happen is we all sort of respect each other's Catholics and then there's a similarity today if the mayor stopped by your mega church on a Sunday afternoon former mega church former yeah I'm Catholic I'm putting this back out here in a smashing time machine on the Sunday afternoon and they're hurt and they want to feel close to God what would they do there's no worship going on first of all the the challenging part is the doors probably locked right and there's no adoration Chapel the the good news is there's probably in in most mega churches there something going on most the time some activity yeah 18 hours a day six or seven days a week so there's going to be people there who can who you hope are going to say here's the number for Marcus on the staff who really helps folks with that let me get you connected to him but it's not always necessarily going to be easy to do that there's nothing like coming and praying kneeling before our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament there's nothing of that intimacy with us that's why I'm Catholic yeah and you cannot have a close facsimile to that anywhere else the real presence resides in the Catholic Church worship is about the altar it's all about the Eucharist and there's an intimacy with Jesus there that's not attainable in any other way and at the end of the day that's why I did what I did I remember as a Presbyterian pastor of one my small church we know it was it was within the largest church that I pastored we wanted to do it a 40-hour prayer yeah everybody signed up yeah I got seven days yeah okay we did that and I happened to sign up for the 2:00 to 3:00 in the morning because no one else dad but I remember going over to the church empty all right I think our church could see 500 is pretty big Church yeah so what do you do you go there now what he did I asked myself yeah why am I here yeah I could have done this at home yeah that was that that was that was a big mind blower for me was to begin to think about that's why we built such marvelous churches in the Catholic world because they actually housed Jesus they're not just gab they're not just gathering areas for people who have similar views which is what a Protestant church is but it's a home for Jesus that's why we give our best that's why we created the most beautiful until I had that adoration Eucharistic moment I never understood that I thought man boy it sure dude they build really big churches that have all this outlandish stuff wonder why they do that now it almost sounds like oh I get it it's not just a it's not just a warehouse is not just an arena and once you cast aside belief in the real presence yeah what do you get you really everything else does eventually is gone now see I think that's where you and I were talking about this before the before the show about I don't think Luther and Calvin anticipated that that once once you you remove the real presence of Jesus it's almost like that's what's I get these two mixed up centripetal and centrifugal force I can whenever it's almost like it's spinning this way it's holding together and you remove that it's almost like it takes the center out and into splinters I don't think they ever could have foreseen over four and five hundred years just how much fracturing would occur once you remove the real presence of the Eucharist from from the church what binds you together clearly it's not the Bible that although that's what's typically claimed but clearly that doesn't and here I particularly don't think Luther thought that and that's why amongst the Reformers he was fighting yeah with them yeah this is my nod give it up yeah he was saying that yeah you're right Calvin would not but Calvin was starting from scratch and everything but Luther was and whether he realized that what was going to happen because he was disturbed already the blame is greased as opposed to Calvin Calvin wasn't so and he his entire life he was still the foundation for all that he believed Catholicism right that was his world where the second third generation yet Protestants it was all different world I'm so go ahead grab an email here Frank from Toronto what ways can a radial program help bring Jesus truth to ordinary people what are some of the blessings Alan has seen as a result of this job boy I mean I'll tell you about the show last night before you and I did this show the show that I did last night on the air the the first hour we talked about the Duggar family who just announced they're having their 20th child and it gave me a great opportunity without talking about the Catechism or or it is to talk about the dignity of life and the beauty of kids and that kids are a not a choice but a gift to be received and they're an outpouring of God's love and just how much the culture has changed we're not even aware of what a fundamental mind shift happened in America because of birth control that now kids are a choice they're a burden their financial responsibility as opposed to they're a gift of the best part of life so what happens in the news gives me a marvelous way just to talk about what we believe without making it Catholic teaching 101 and then then in our last hour last night was it was a much more ministry kind of I do this every once in a while where I called a lifeline hour and again these are people from every imaginable walk of life this is in Catholic radio and I say you want some wisdom from a guy who was a pastor for a long time who looks at life differently the nearby us on talk radio you're making you're making a major decision in your life or you've got something that you've been carrying around in your soul from all times you've never shared out loud or you're dealing with the burden and people calling in with all kinds of people in others they may call themselves Christians but they don't they're like you know this is kind of you're the person I trust and it gives me the opportunity to kind of guide them home so it's an extraordinary privilege to be on mainstream radio that the topic you just mentioned comes from I think a big nuran self a denial of of recognizing the entire coven ental body of the family of the old in the New Testament that was there from the beginning you were always you always got close to God by being a part of the Covenant 'el family right and nowhere does Jesus stop that right and that becomes the church I can form to the church but but instead what they'll see that the story where the rich young ruler comes to Jesus and says what must I do to have eternal life and Jesus says well you pay the commandments or go sell give it away and follow me well that that could be interpreted completely individualistic and doesn't mention Church you didn't mention sacraments you didn't mention this stuff okay I'm I'm being good I'm following the commandments I'm being right with Jesus yeah you can interpret it it looked at and pulled out of its contrary individualistically if you want to John 3:16 can seem totally individual is whoever if you pull it right out of the context email from William why is there no altar in the Protestant church but all they have is a pulpit I felt like the quote star at the Protestant church was the preacher and not Jesus is that's that's a question that I think about a lot because in a lot of evangelical churches and in Baptist churches you have this altar call where you're supposed to come down to the altar but there's no altar and I often wonder why do they call it that I don't understand that I wondered about that for years is it there is no altar but we're having this altar call you're coming forward to why is this sort of railing why is that particularly whole week there's no altar there's nothing that's happened on the altar you don't believe in sacraments it's a strange it's a strange thing I don't know where that vestige comes from it's interesting I don't know either because certainly when I thought about the altar and my Protestant churches I just heard the idea sacrifice never crossed my right exactly yeah it was the place you put the candle right and maybe a flower arrangement there it was in the alternate open Bible an open Bible exactly when we did the Lord's Supper we made that leisa elements on the table and whatever we called it fact there's some southern churches that have an altar Society right ladies with white gloves they kind of come in and take care of the church and minister to people of fainted and all that yeah they might calm alter some of them but there's no alter yeah that yeah and what is the word alter mean nobody really knows it is if that's just what we call it yeah what we're going to have you back we just ran out how are you kidding Wow where's get warmed up thank you Marcus thank you very much my pleasure for your witness and your journey home but also your continued witness on radio and then your evangelistic works thank you listen glad to be Catholic alright glad to have you home good to be home thank you for joining us on this episode of the journey home I'm I'm hoping that Allen's journey has been encouraging to you if you're not in the church look around at this confusion where is the place you can find truth we pray that you'll find it especially during this coming Christmas season you come home to his church god bless you see you soon Oh you you

Channel: EWTN

Views: 33,948

Rating: 4.8575344 out of 5

Keywords: Catholic, coming, home, Methodist, talk, Gospel, JHT01338

Id: I8rgCY5lyHo

Length: 56min 10sec (3370 seconds)

Published: Wed Dec 14 2011