The Great Mauga Debate feat. Samito, Yeatle & Bogur

welcome everyone to another episode of the group up Podcast we are here for the great malga debate malga is finally Upon Us terrorizing some people's rank games and I brought with me three I guess as much as we can be right now experts on the hero as all three of these guys have successfully completed unranked GMS on malga so uh let's introduce my panel in the bottom right is my man y what's up yo what up happy to be here nice to have you back again I like the background like the little plushies you got going back there yeah a Pokemon fan got a Hammond back there too oh nice nice there you go nice nice well we can we can mention a little bit of Hammond earlier as well because I I I actually you know I got some hot takes I think I think he's better than people think he is but maybe I'm wrong um in the bottom left is my man Boger Boger what's up I am chilling I've been grinding mum life's great awesome yeah Boger you currently hit 10 now rank top 10 on uh yeah I got 10 wins in a row then I lost three games in a row and then I was like Cru this I'm going to go play Lucio too many games but uh yeah I did get top 10 today that's fair that's fair and someone who went you went 31 to one is that correct Sam on your unranked GM playing Malo welcome to the podcast so I think I I got to GM and I was 35 and one and the only game I lost was I had a DPS only Moira duoed with their a mercy on my team and that Moira did not heal anyone else the entire game and we lost by one fight they had 3,000 healing in 10 minutes that was the only game I lost so rank what rank it was Diamond I think I think that's czy was Mercy pocketing the moyer the whole time or what was that yeah pretty much yeah oh that's awful so it was not and we almost won the game too but it was it was a lot I'd like to uh SCV that we got a very important apology to make here I I have changed my background for today's show for the first time oh yes ever I just I didn't clock me there's no leang Tower anymore you know well it's I could turn it on except I can't stream like the call so I I've never stream like the group up except because I can't get everybody's faces as well as mine with my with my background but today we're trying something new so if I get flamed I'm sorry but you guys tell me should I bring it back or or what's the deal here we'll see yeah I feel like tradition is ruined like some without ruin as well yeah without the leang how can we how can we do this but all right we'll figure it out we'll figure it all right fellas so we're here assembled here to discuss MAA amongst some other things that we'll talk about you know the winter wonderland and the season and all whole bunch of other things that are currently taking place in OverWatch maybe we'll get to the whole support op beef as well that's always digging up on the surface but um first let's talk about our newest hero now all three of you like I said have been embarking on some MAA one tricking and I have heard on the grap Vine and I've heard it been said and I'm feeling this way a little bit myself that Mao might be the strongest hero on launch that OverWatch has ever released at least in OverWatch 2 and might even be a little bit pay to win so I'm going to open this up with asle Sam Sam start us off because I know you're uh you were dming me about this you think that malga might just be a little bit pay to win so big pitcher thoughts on malga uh and then we'll get into the to the nitty-gritty so in terms of I I've seen people try to say that like he's he's so good he's as good as launch brick he's not as good as lunch bre I I I think that's a bit of an exaggeration um launch Breg was so insane that it's I like he's good he might be the second best he might be the second best behind it's a close close between him and long Sigma in my opinion La Sigma was insane maybe La Kiri too but I think long Sigma guys would you all agree with that statement that it's like close there with long Sigma but maybe that's number two I I can't think I don't think I don't really remember how broken Sigma was I I remember people rolling around with Sigma everywhere like MAA but I'm not sure cuz didn't he come out during gos mea or he came out right when Ru came out yeah yeah they just added him in for Rue I remember he had like 600 shield and you could flick it instantly like you there was or something it was around it was crazy and then you could grasp the hook and you can throw a rock across the map for like a 5sec CC oh and flux wasn't interruptible flux wasn't interruptible you remember interrupt flux and they would still get slammed down that was funny yeah yeah so I'm like compared to like traditional Heroes I I he's not touching brg and and he probably wouldn't touch Sigma either but he was close um he's I I've seen a lot of people complain about his design I actually don't think his design is the problem I I think that that's kind of what you expect from a tank hero I think that the format doesn't allow him to have a lot of depth in the mirrors and the mirror is incredibly brainless it's just it's like you sit there and really right now it's just shoot their tank like you don't want to get caught shooting squishies too much because you'll stop healing and stop generating Shields um and if you have a Kiri on your team that's all you need really that's it it's you get a get Airi and you can win almost any game um but I I I've enjoyed playing the character um I do think it's a little pay to win in that have we seen a meta where people are leaving games to buy battle passes in comp like like you know it's it's it's pretty insane and another thing I want to bring up is oh my goodness okay sorry I just got well let's let's just let's pause there you you you hold on to that thought and let me let me get the big picture thoughts from my other guests here first Boger just sort of big picture MAA you know samito alluded to a few things there where like maybe he's as strong as one of the top three maybe releases of Heroes we've ever gotten how do you rate him especially someone who suffered with perhaps the worst hero on launch in OverWatch with life Weaver so you've gotten quite the contrast MAA is a little bit overcooked like it I've never seen such a car it's like Bastion Bon tank cuz you just kill every tank in a one V one every single time and I've never seen cuz everyone keeps swapping tanks to counter a specific pick but I've never seen people struggle to swap so much like I play malga and if the enemy team doesn't go MAA they just lose a lot of the games like the tank tries Winston he gets cooked he tries Reinhardt he has cook he goes Diva like Diva might make you struggle a bit but not really because after Matrix is done that's it and he's like so oppressive and as samito said you shouldn't be shooting squishies cuz then you don't heal I feel like if just focus the enemy tank you just kill him instantly like cloudy pins in I just run into him and I just shoot him in the face and I can't die because I heal so much plus I get pocketed and he dies instantly people die so fast and not to mention he's the only tank I feel like that you can face to face like shoot a Bastion and he actually heals more like if the enemy team goes Bastion it's a net benefit for the MGA cuz like he heals the Bastion it's like a second thing it's nuts uh I think the character is a little bit overtuned I think um I think he needs some nerves for sure and especially with a KIRO he's really strong because Anna the only things there's no DPS that can counter malga if feel like and there's no T that can counter malga only supports can counter malga and if you bait out the sleep and Nate you're you're good to go if you have a KIRO and you just Su with them you're good to go like I it's a crazy tank right now I went 10 in zero today I rolled cloudy so many games he couldn't do anything on Reinhardt I played against mo7 M7 kept swapping cuz you know we just suu the NES and stuff so the character is a little bit uh really strong I did struggle when I started getting into those top 10 lobbies because people were like the rank one players were playing like Kil Lucio soulant Tracer zarya and I couldn't heal from anything and I was just dying but you know I feel like you shouldn't be winning every game on MAA obviously you're going to strug against the best of the best but I feel like he's a huge pop stomper right now like crazy just insta win free elo a lot of thoughts to to vibe off there yle but yeah just starting with the big picture the relative strength of MAA on launch what do you what do you feel about what's been said so far I think he's he's definitely on one of the stronger sides I I'd say that there's definitely an argument for him being the most uh pay to win but I think launch KERO was Stronger Just the difference is she's a support and not a tank and Tank's just more impact let's be real here um but besides that like I feel like I don't think malga is uncounterable per se like you can really like I think Diva or or um Sigma like you give him an Anna and then all of a sudden it's a little bit hard for malga to heal off of anything between the matrixes the Shields and all that like even if he has a cleanse of his own like it's hard to do anything um I think he's very like comol liant in that sense of he's getting countered but uh overall I think he's an okay hero um there's definitely things to be said about like him shooting tanks all the time I think that's very boring gameplay and I like the part of his kit where you light people on fire and you know you just poke him out with that I think that's nice um but yeah overall I think his damage also is it's a little bit strong but I think it's at a good spot now before it was like you literally could just shoot tanks the entire time and just erase them but now there's a bit more room for the matchup I think in a lot of times yeah I think that's I think I got most of it I miss something no sounds good Sam's got his hands up Sam what do you want what do you want to add to that I just I just want to piggyback a little bit about off what both of them said one I think it's hilarious anytime anybody's picked baset against me it's been so free because his hitbox is so big that you constantly have him ignited which is free crit and shield Boger hit on this as well the only games that I struggled and this is why he's such a good Pub stomper hero were the games where they played things that were hard to shoot or they minimized or they they they took down my uptime on my guns right what those games where it's it's kind of like when people were trying to figure out how to play against doomfist and OverWatch one and DPS Doom or whatever and everyone's like oh let's go Cass and all these stuns except you're clumping up and playing Heroes that he can dive on if you want to beat MGA it's very similar it's like sometimes the best thing to do is pick the echo Mercy or pick things that are hard to hit like soes tracer Lucio Kiri and zarya or queen is another one I struggle with because she's so vertical that your uh left and right click can't like PR Shields or healing off of her if you want to beat MAA you need to avoid the duel this kind of what Fredo talked about svb yesterday those were the only times that I really struggled and if again if you get the KIRO you just have to play a lot slower so I think if they wanted to change him and tune him down maybe reduce the amount of healing he can get but I don't think you should change the ignite chance I think letting him ignite squishies is super super important just reduce the reward it gives you because it's that's how you expand on the game that's what people really complain about is the gameplay Loop is sit there and spam the tank if they allowed it to be a little bit easier to ignite squishies you'd see less of that but it's right now how it is you just have to shoot the tanks and you just overwhelm everything so there's there's a few strands here that will will'll isolate each of them and we'll go through each of them one will just be the general idea of like where does Mao's strength come from and what is it that makes him so strong what might be a counter talk about potential balance change as well like okay well if we all relatively agree that maybe he's a little bit overtuned how do we change that you already alluded to a little bit samido and then we'll again come to this bigger picture discussion of like what Heroes should be like when they launch so let's just start with this the idea of like MAA being the shredder Boger I mean how accessible do you think malga is going to be for the vast majority of the rank experience because this Al this also happens it's often a disconnect between when players like yourself who are some of the best players in the world are playing Heroes and you guys get the Maxum out the hero and it's it's a whole different world for your normal player in Golden plat and you said when you were you're doing your Lucio you were in like a lower ELO you weren't really seeing people run MAA now that could just be because people didn't buy the battle pass yet or haven't unlocked him yet but how do you see MAA affecting like the bigger picture of OverWatch the game and OverWatch ranked at least outside of like top 500 I think MAA can be very brain dead most of the times but I think there's a lot of things you can do on him that are really fun and interesting like his shift you can climb up stuff it's really funny like if you're playing junker town you can go from High Ground to High Ground hop around like Winston is and most people I feel like lower people lower ranked people don't know that and then uh you can dodge MGA ult with your shift there's a lot of things I think lower rank players don't know that can they can uh min max on this character to really boost your win rate you can actually place your ult and press shift at the same time inside your Ro if you time it correctly uh people also I've seen so many MAA players and uh when I was lower ranked even in higher ranked that shoot both guns at the same time from long range which means you can't like hit anything because your spread is so wide so I feel like the character can be very brain dead a lot of the time but I think the reason one of the few reasons we don't see him in lower elus cuz not everyone has the battle pass second of all not everyone really cares about you know uh winning every game they just want to play their game and third of all I think people struggle with MAA because um they don't first they don't really understand some of the concepts like they try to kill squishies every time I've tried to rush into the backline against an Anna or whatever I just die instantly like it's just insta dead you know but if I shoot the tank I never die you know just you just never die so people misunderstand how to play MAA they play tagro they know how to use his abilities his old I love his old I think his old is awesome I love his so much it's so fun because you can do so many things with it like you can C9 the enemy team you can uh catch the Ving mercy and kill her like 100% success rate like it's so easy to do that like you can you can go and solo the tank and like it's like a Winston bubble they can't kill him anymore and just kill the tank there's so many things you you can split Tran I there split TR there were two cage fights like over other and I split the Tran on the right side and then fought the MGA on the left it was crazy I really I really like a lot one thing like even though he's a little bit op when I play MGA I get reminded of playing tank back in OverWatch one like I know when it was actually kind of fun cuz now it's not fun to play tank and why is that because back in the day you have the second tank to peel for you and you can do a lot and you can think a lot and there's a lot of little things I could do like MAA gameplay as I said you can just sit around just shoot the enemy tank but once you get into higher El lobbies you need to do some more funky stuff to win and I think it's fun because I feel like I have control of the game like I I I feel like I if I lose the game it's my fault obviously it's because the character is really op but uh yeah I'll let Sam chime in and then I want to talk to yle about something go ahead Sam yeah yeah I a quick line you go to yle um well that's because you know ironically guys if you think about it wgo right now is what tank was promised to be in OverWatch 2 now they did it by buffing him like he's really really strong but like right now if you are playing wga you are the superhero that was promised and I think that's why it that's why it felt so good to play as him that being said if you're playing against it as a different tank it probably wasn't as fun but that's I think that's the feeling and I I I agree with that only thing I want to say is that I'm so happy that I'm the one playing Maan not the one that uh people are playing MGA against you know like I out like playing against Winston on MGA is like Winston jumps and he dies instantly like I wait for his Primal a press o he dies instantly so it looks so not fun like he's too dominating gu or or bo bo like Bo eats so much cuz he's so large like even though he has 1,200 HP you just kill him instantly it's crazy yeah well I mean I'm I'm I'm actually impressed that SEO laid off the 6v6 I thought he was going to I thought that's where that was going I thought the 6v6 propag wait to later was coming sure I'm sure we'll eventually get into that area but I mean and that is a valid discussion we're we're talking about a tank so it does I think it will be relevant to maybe bring that up at some point Sam yeah but we're talking about design right now so so we'll hold that we'll hold on to that but right now I I want to head over tole hello guys SCB here and the goop up Podcast is back and I'd like to take just 30 seconds of your time to talk to you about two quick things firstly patreon if you enjoy the content then please do consider supporting directly because patreon takes only about 10% of the money you give where YouTube and twitch take 40 and 50% respect l so if you'd like to support the podcast then that is the best way to do so secondly if you're someone who enjoys video essays or detailed analysis of movies TV or anime then please do check out my second channel the so where I'll be making videos about those kind of topics much more frequently and where a lot of my attention will go beyond just OverWatch it would mean the absolute world to me if you guys would check it out but that's it for now let's head back to the discussion see a couple interesting things said there and I know people will hear things like well oh you like being op huh like that's so that's that's what it is you you guys were mad when support was op but now Tank's op you guys are happy and another interesting thing that you said yle earlier where it's like well the tank is just more impactful right so it's like it's like launch KIRO maybe was more broken but tank is like the impact role so now that MAA is this strong like it's kind of defining you actually made a great video about you know how to approach picking in OverWatch and you you know you spoke about like when OverWatch 2 actually you kind of want to go off with your support comp is running right if your support comp is doing this you kind of want to base your tank off with that so I want you to like kind of tell me if you well first do you still agree with that because that was a while back and if so how does Malo fit into that because what I'm getting is that malga kind of breaks that mold and he just he defines what everyone else should pick so is that is that good is that bad is that something you agree with so give me your thoughts I think very specifically in like the malga V malga matchup it will definitely come down to like which team has the better support lineup like if if I have mercy Moira versus kirana it's going to be an uphill battle to say the least uh between just healing getting anti Etc um and those ults are just so good ksun and Nano great rotation um but yeah I still think that like the support comp is very important for like deciding what you do as tank because how I see it is like what you can do as a tank depends on what your support lineup is so for example again like if we have the Anna uh Kiri and they're the the shitty MOA Mercy then I can hold w a lot harder or maybe like play more of a poke style more of a brawl style like we Lucio MOA instead so I still think that holds true um one thing I did want to say though about the old earlier is I do kind of feel like the ult is just just a little bit too strong his cage fight because it's just a little bit goofy that like if you ult somebody like like a doomfist for example the doomfist can't punch he can't really fight back all he can do is just block I'm I'm kind of a I'm kind of on the page of I think they should be able to use their Mobility inside the cage fight I don't know what you guys think about that is that a hot to leave yeah not be able to leave I can agree with that I think the best way that they could balance MAA going forward is not to necessarily Nerf him but be open up some opportunity for other people to play into him in his denial abilities like like the cage fight where like Doom maybe can punch but he can't punch punch out right or Ryan can pin and he just collides on the wall or on the shield and like maybe the shield gets treated kind of like a May wall I guess and not like a barrier or like a well I don't know I but I think I don't think that would be a bad approach if they don't want to accidentally nuke him kind of like what happened last week where he kind of got nuked um but yeah I can agree with that like Doom is just helpless like it's embarrassing like he just just he Doom instantly turns into a mosquito and M's just like just you're just useless you're done that last patch was crazy prior to the to the Buffs that he just got like I feel like that put him from one of the worst tanks to all of a sudden a top tank like it was crazy night and day to me well that's an interesting thing to investigate I want boger's thoughts on this first and I get the others but like how is it that we went from people going well Ash these this Nerf that you given this is like this hero is dead like you know you're this is unplayable and now we're kind of saying he's like Giga busted maybe like the most busted tank we've seen in a long time so like how how does that occur and is there a way to find the middle ground so I want to go to you Boger first like why is that why is that happened I think um first we should stop dud judging characters by quick play and practice range I think it's really funny every time we do it because people are like this character is broken no this character is not broken this relax let's wait for him to come out and rank and then you know do the hot fixes and stuff cuz we released like two patches for MAA just based on quick play performance and like I don't know how it happened I don't know why it happened like I played him after they nerfed him right he was really weak I couldn't do anything quick play it was really weird right so then they hot fixed it instantly I was like just give it a little bit of like the I feel like I feel like we we're too fast to judge on like how good a character is in ranked uh or like in general just based on like artificial performance and quick play where everyone's either being silly or the people that playing m aren't really try Harding so I feel like um what blizzard should have done is like maybe released one hot fix like when they nerfed him and then when he came out in R saw his performance and then maybe change uh the things but I don't know how to fix MAA I I personally really enjoy watching people suffer when I ow them and kill them I think it's really fun so I don't want them to remove the thing where they disable the mobility I I love watching ball struggle A ball rolls in a ball rolls in I trap him and that's it he's dead like doesn't matter how much HP he has doomfist goes in like old I just WAP him he's dead it's like God bless it's really fun and overtime it's really fun as well cuz you place the the thing on the payload and they can't do anything they just die but um I feel like main issue with m is shooting is his heals he heals way too much when shooting tanks and second of all he shreds tanks so he does a lot of damage to tanks and then he heals way too much from them so it's really hard so maybe maybe they should enable a thing where like he heals less from shooting tanks maybe you know how like uh um like like tanks give out less U charge and stuff maybe M should heal less from tanks so he isn't just focus on shooting the tanks I do think that his other side of the gameplay like where you shoot stuff long range right like where you were talking about igniting stuff I feel like that like if they Nerf him shredding and healing I think that's okay but if they uh they should maybe buff his long range capabilities a tiny bit so his game play isn't like monotonous like just oh I'm just going to shoot the tank all the time maybe give him like like make him not shred tanks and not be op against every tank but give him a little bit more options when shooting stuff from long range right like um I know what exactly maybe less spread maybe does he have fall off he probably does does see yes but it's it's yeah maybe less I don't know if you guys agree but that's my opinion so I want to I want to frame the question this way to you Sam though which is that like you we've we've we've been on this podcast we've talked about like supports being overpowered or whatever and like not being fun for the game it's I may have picked a bias panel because you guys are all love and Life playing malga but a a word to the people playing against MAA right and I I I've seen a lot of people complain about like this is not fun at all at the moment he's kind of killing any tank diversity really in the sense that like if you're running if they're running MAA you're not running MAA you're like Auto losing and you don't really have an option but to try and mirror or like if your supports are worse as well ble right it's it's just like a lot a lot harder than most Fair matchups we would say so firstly is that is that healthy like should we should we be loing MAA being released in this state or is it like is it is it a mistake and if so like yeah how do you weigh in on on toning him back so we'll start with what I would say to people playing against MAA right I think the best way to play against him is one to pick elusive characters that he can't shoot at a lot like maybe if you're struggling as a DPS Sombra not to kill him but to go for his team and try to build EMP for when he cage fights you just EMP it away instantly something like that right I don't even think sombra's a great matchup into him but I don't think anything's a good matchup into him to be honest right now so you're best off picking things that don't feed into him if you feed into him you will lose on every character that you pick especially as a tank don't pick hog I know Fredo was talking about ratra I think wga shreds ratra I think even if you play to poke him back with the new poke like I think Ram's really underrated right now and I think Ram would have been really good had Wan not been buffed again this week you know before prior the holidays so you have to pick things that don't feed them um as for is it healthy for the game for a character to be released like this it's not black and white in that subject where I would say it's nice for a tank to actually be what a tank was visioned to be for like it's nice having support not be the end all of everything however it's just more P like the the way that you got there is just by making an absolutely busted tank that wins every one-on-one match up in its role right and may maybe you could say it loses to skinny hitbox Heroes like queen or something like that sure but generally speaking like he just wins and the problem is he wins close to the skill floor of the character right what's so weird about maaga is is I might be pronouncing the name wrong too so I apologize is that once you learn the basics of just shoot the tank how to alternate and ignite you go from like this value to this value really quick and then everything past that point it's like Boger said it's like the little things right and that's the little things are what separate the good from the great in this game but that's the big issue a lot of people have with it so is it healthy for the game I don't think I don't think it is um but I I don't know as for nerfing him it's this is where I feel really bad because SV I've been screaming this and you know this I think we've learned especially with how fast these patches are going how difficult it is to bounce particularly tanks in 5v5 because again the reason why it felt like it was so volatile is because the second that he wasn't winning like a ton of matchups he was bad right because there's so much other there's so much competition for that spot so it's just this is where I really feel for the balance team this is it's really hard to get this right it's really really hard to get this right so I'm not even sure how I change him yet I think looking at the healing on from shooting I I think you need to find ways to incentivize him to not sit there and just shoot at the other tank that's what you have to do but can you is is the hard part and you have to let him ignite targets faster so that he can actually shoot at squishies but they're just going to pick hereo they're going to pick Tracer and who was it that brought this up Metro was it okay it always is Metro isn't it um but who who was it that brought up character hit boxes among streamers first s maybe kfre could have been Metro could have been kfre I've seen some I've seen these complaints on social media we we'll get to that whole section actually I want to add something I have a really I'm going to get hated for this opinion but it's really funny thought that I had so right let's run through this m MAA counters thanks and thans are not in the same level as MAA cuz you know he's just way too strong against them he just outclasses them so what if instead of nerfing manga we buff all the tanks that would be really funny that's a thought that's a thought I know everyone's gonna hate me the comments are gonna listen I'm gonna lie to you I'm not gonna lie to you if supports get to keep their passive and they get to keep all this stuff listen like cuz support you have a claim to the argument are countering MAA that's the only counter to MAA it's like the support comp like if the support comp is correct you will probably destroy a you know a malga so if MAA destroys every single tank in One V one because ma is just so much better than all the tanks what if we just slightly Nerf his capabilities to kill other tanks and buff the other tanks I did is not biased at all but it's just a random thought I had well I'm I wanted to hear thoughts I want to hear thoughts first and then I I might chime in myself but yo is that the way to fix the MAA problem or do you have some solutions of your own hey I mean I'm all for it like wasn't that one of the promises early on they said they were going to make tank like bruisers instead of tanks in OverWatch 2 they said something like that like they give it a whole new name selling as like Brawlers the lobby ra Brawlers there you go I mean I'm all for tanks being stronger I'm I'm I'm very for that because the other option is you start nerfing everything else but yeah um I think in my opinion cardiac Overdrive is like one of the main breaking points with MAA like I think the the fact that your teammates also heal from like being in range is just going to like result in some crazy comps of just like I I've seen a lot of Bastion creeping up or Reaper or may and like just you know like the cringe comps pretty much and honestly does he need it like does he need to like heal his allies can it just be for him I don't know that that's just a thought that I have I feel like he could just get away with having it and then as for like I mean the main complaint that we're all have in here is that too much tank shooting why not just like I don't know either shorten the range on the dues so it's like you have to be like Barrel stuff in to like be able to do that that duy damage or increase the accuracy on the long range I I feel like that's like a pretty common thought seems like a no-brainer to me just so it makes it so that you don't tank diff unless you're in their face like crazy those are my thoughts what if what if they lowered the ignite chance but low L the amount of shields you got from the crits from the ignite so it's easier to ignite people so like you could actually ignite the Squishies maybe I don't know sorry go ahead I'm just thinking out loud no it's worth it's worth live brainstorming and and feel free to kind of chime and interrupt at any point if you come up with idea you're like wait actually I think I think I have a thing that would be that would be good before we move on to to the the can of worms that Boger has opened about maybe we should just buff all the tanks and we we we'll talk about that in a second I think that I think that leads nicely onto some of the other things we can talk about but just one more word I think on this idea of how OverWatch 2 hero should release like what kind of state they should release in because we've now seen a little bit of a spectrum right you you guys mentioned like launch KIRO very strong although it did take people a little bit of time to figure out like actually if you just heal bot on this character Farm kitsun Rush is just ridiculous right so took a little bit of time whereas MAA has been a bit more immediate I think everyone immediately on compan is like yeah this is this is doing a lot and then of course we've had you know life we be very whelming ratra was kind of middling like he was a little bit good for a while then they kind of changed him and then he wasn't so good so we've had like a whole spectrum and of course it draws into the equation as I mentioned earlier the idea of like pay to win I've seen this brought up now a lot more than before and obviously this is something I spoke to to Jared NES directly about uh Jared new sorry directly about where they kind of said well we're actually we want our goal to be to let Heroes be available to everyone onine launch and that's kind of like a a a quote unquote goal that they're striving towards I don't know they obviously he couldn't commit and didn't commit to a specific like this is what we're going to do and this is when we're going to do it but it seems like that's something on the dev's mind too so how do you guys feel about this idea of the potential pay to win element Sam you got your hands up go ahead I I think it's I think it's more true than I would have thought it would be pre- OverWatch 2 for a couple of reasons right one I at least in war zone and I talked about this svb the guns that are in the battle pass become accessible to everybody like they opened up a ton of the like especially during Vanguard like a lot of the SMGs in war zone were in the battle pass you bought the battle pass you got them early and at least as another player if you killed somebody you could pick up the akimbo SMGs they put in the game that were broken you could pick up the akimbo Marcos you could pick up the blixen you could pick up a ton of guns that made meta right but even after that that they would be accessible to everybody Midway through the season or the next season the fact that Heroes like KIRO and ratra are still locked by default especially new players when wga is The Meta tank right now except guess what suzu is the most important ability to make sure that his experience like actually can still get picked so I think what the one thing that really just doesn't sit well in my in my mouth is the fact that Heroes like Kiri and yeah you could say you could play to unlock them ratra is still 35 wins right hot take if the hero's been out for over a year it shouldn't be locked at all right but they're still charging $10 for it which I I just think that's silly I don't think that's fair as for Wow gun kind of being paid to win it's going to stick out more on the tank roll I I think it's hard to argue that it isn't especially in his case where that big value jump is where you you're getting the most value out of his skill curve right it's pretty close to the floor it's you just got to learn how to shoot right right so while there are a lot of Niche things at the top that you have to learn like it's very very close to the skill floor to win the one V1 against most characters people they you talk about this all the time people don't have a lot of time to play the games right what if you're a working adult who wants to come back and play Reinhardt well when Boger can just sit there and run and Gun cloudy for 10 wins in a row for all the Ry Chads out there all the DEA actually is decent can slow slow them down but if you just want to come and play your fan favorite Heroes and you didn't buy the battle pass or say you even just want to do it and they bought it it's hard to argue that it's not now is it absolutely blatant no but it's in the it's in the goldilock zone it's in the territory and I'm glad that Jared said something about it because I'm surprised not as many people are talking about it but GLE I want I want your thoughts on this like is it unethical in some way or is it just the devs trying their best to put out a hero that they think is strong and playable and avoid a life weav situation to add on I don't think it's unethical I think they needed the character to be strong so I I should have no no that's fair that's fair yeah I'm with that I think um that new Heroes should be strong however what's he what's he for free on the battle pass is it like 45 or something yeah 45 yeah they got to make that way less it's got to be like 20 maybe 15 like something that like within a gaming session or two you can unlock them right that way when you do go into comp it's you don't really have that great of an excuse but 45 that's like you could be playing for a week and you still won't have them in comp so I think for the most part yeah that's a bit too much um and I think it's fine that they're strong because that makes the new Heroes exciting right and interesting it draws more viewers so players yeah I mean obviously that's that's kind of maybe our POV I mean some people will say well I will you know 45 nowhere near I'll have that kind of time this is just blizzard trying to force me into buying the battle pass right like is Blizzard's way of of trying to like softly coers me and and I've seen you know a lot of people feel this way they're kind of like I I'm just it makes them want to buy the battle pass even less CU they're like oh they're they're doing this to to make me do it and I don't even want to support them anymore Boger how do you feel about those kind of accusations I don't think it's that hard to unlock the heroes like I agree with some I I would prefer if the all the heroes were free obviously like I I I think like I think um especially for old Heroes like ratra at this point like they're over a year old like come on but um uh I do prefer if everything was just unlocked all the time I don't think I don't know how much money they're making from people paying for the thing cuz like if you think about it you need like 35 wins per row to and then go into the tutorial to unlock older like newer older Heroes the the heroes that are not this season you know for example I I need to go play play I think win win 35 games on tank and then go into practice range and unlock Ram if you're a new player you need 50 wins until you get into ranked and anyways so at that point you will unlock all the characters unless I'm missing something all the you know the role specific characters if you stuck to tank or support or DPS you just have to go to practice range but obviously I I feel like it is better if all the characters are just unlocked straight up um I think uh I think this entire stick with loing characters is really old at this point like it was way back it was popular with league and stuff right now it's still a thing in League of Legends but the the game has so many characters there I think it's comparable even and what else were we talking about exactly I think you to mentioned something but I don't remember what you to talk about the power level of the the yeah of MAA power level I I do think it's kind of paid to win right now I agree with everyone I think um I back in i a few months ago I wouldn't say it's pay to win uh but right now with malga I think um most people will struggle 100% playing against MAA if they don't lock Maan themselves Diva can be good junker Queen can be good rat is not good against MAA like you just heal so much against ram with MAA it's crazy like it doesn't matter if you all all can do is block and if he doesn't block he dies that's it uh when playing against MAA so I do believe it's kind of pay to win I do believe they should remove the thing where they like uh you unlock characters by buying the battle pass and stuff just give it to everyone and um I do think they should release characters in a similar state that they released malga I I'm sorry I think people are going to disagree with me but I play Life r i I know how [ __ ] that is nobody was excited about that character at all like nobody cared about him because he was just so bad and right now he's really good don't get me wrong I think he's really strong but um I think character should be released stronger so people are excited to log in and stump people for a few weeks before they Nerf them and I think that's what most games do I think I don't think they should be as strong as MAA but it should be exciting to log into the game and play the you hearo because nobody was excited to log in and play Life Weaver you think that was because life Weaver's Core Design being more of a character kind of like Mercy rather than like a mechanically intensive character I I think it was definitely tied to his strength but do do you think that people in general wouldn't have been as interested in Weaver due to his mechanics I I think he's really satisfying I think he's really fun I think he's fun I think I agree like to some extent it's cuz he relies on his team and it's more like mercy and stuff I think you need a lot of thinking to actually be good at life weever there's a lot of things you can do I I can talk about it all the time uh for a long time but um I think obviously the most obvious reason is cu just the character was so bad in release right like you just log in like why what is the point of going in logging in playing the new buying paying $10 to play Life Weaver and get rolled every game when you can just play Baptist lari oh lar was out bapti Zen or KIRO right like those characters are just so much better than life at least were it's not even comparable so what's the point you know so yeah I I prefer MAA release to life raver every day of the week people complain about life Weaver so bad never release a character like that then they release M like [ __ ] he's so op then release like release op characters and then Nerf them don't release Bad characters and then buff them thank you yeah agreed I think that's the only gripe I have with it is that I think they flipped up the week one patch and the week two patch going into comp where if he was in this state last week in the quick play only it would be way less it would stick out like less of a sore thumb but to be to be fair to blizzard here and I don't know if I want to give him credit for it but I will here it's the holiday season you've got a a hero to push out before the holidays right he came out super strong sometimes you're going to miss it right but again I I just think that this format makes it really really hard for them to nail it especially like in the winter you know maybe that's what they should do they should flip the tank cycle up and put the tank earlier in the Year cuz that one's going to be the hardest and then put supports towards the end because there we all know the support's going to be broken anyway right so you know you know already already alluding to our future sections I mean there's there's a couple interesting things I want to I want to mention there which is that of like I want to I want to dig deeper into the how we actually unlock the heroes but before that I think that another interesting thing that Jared told me was that you know quick play is the game for them and for the community right like we often focus on comp cuz like none of us really spend too much time in quick play unless you were grinding a hero before you know the the comp release like yle was with malga so none of us really spent too much time quickl but Jared basically says that like most the majority of the players are playing quickplay and they also view quickplay as like a serious game mode it's not the like troll around and [ __ ] around game mode that some people have kind of felt it was they they're like no you play quick play you should play it all so it is interesting to think that we've kind of as you said done the reverse of maybe what they should do cuz let's let's try and talk creatively for how they can approach this problem going forwards and I will come to Boer in a second how they can go this problem going forwards is that yeah maybe the hero needs to be stronger on quickplay launch like on actual launch but then tone down a little bit for comp launch because I think the other way is what causes these problems right I I I think theend day you accept if they were broken in quick play right if like the two weeks before they release in comp they're a little bit gigb busted I think there's going to be frustration understandably and I felt this too especially in the malamir they are incredibly brainless incred like not fun for what or watch is supposed to be or what anyone wants to play I think it's just two tanks shooting each other and everyone just dumping everything into two tanks but I think everyone would understand to some extent if the hero was a little bit busted on quickplay release but then two weeks afterwards as you've had enough data you need to pull it back and of course this is where their strong safe side of strong is where they're aiming for right like that's that is the ideal of what you'd want like we want him to be strong we want to be comfortable that he's not going to be broken it just feels like they've missed a mark this time and it's it's on the unsafe side of strong like this is I think everyone day one was like nah this is just too much like this is a bit much so I think they probably for future hero releases they can they need to tone that back like one whole Notch Boger what did you want to add you know why quick play is the most popular mode in OverWatch one simple like answer one simple reason is cu competitive sucks it is so bad and that's why quick play is so popular like obviously there's a big casual Community but ranked is so bad right there's no purpose to grinding it that everyone's just swwa to playing quick play all the time like even big streamers like Flats mostly just play quick play at this point like there's just no point to grinding hopefully with a new you know reward ranked there's more purpose to it and it's more hype but right now it's just so bad to play comp and uh I feel like everyone's given up on climbing on comp especially because they're going to be re workking it and uh yeah I feel like once they do make make comp more fun if they do make more make it more fun quick play will become less popular it might still dominate but it's not going to be as dominant that's fair I I I think I agree with your point 100% I do think quick play will yeah it will still be the way the majority of the player base interact with it uh but that is I think a fair point that I think a lot of people are looking at this season as like a on hold season until season 9 comes out we get the better calm system now going back to the idea of like the future hero releases do you guys have any feelings for for how they should do it because we have to obviously it'd be easy for us to sit here and say give all the heroes right now to everyone who logs in right like if someone logs in tomorrow give them KIRO give them Jungle Queen give them ratra is there some Middle Ground here is there some solution where there's some monetization aspect of it but it still feels Fair like for example should all the heroes just be unlocked in comp but maybe Gay kept in quick play or would that be the reverse if we just said that quick plays where majority of people play maybe they need to gate keep comp but keep quick play Let everyone play it in quick play like what do you guys think yle I haven't heard from you in a bit do you have any thoughts on this whole kind of system or even what Boger said about comp and quick play and how the hero should release on quick play versus comp launch I'm gonna have to go last on this one I'm still collecting my thoughts you collect you collect Sam you hit me I think what was so appealing about old OverWatch competitive was that the game did a great job and this is I think why people really believed in the esport and honestly just enjoyed it whether it's quickplay or competitive I don't think it matters where this is is that when you queued into the game you felt like you were on an even playing field with the other team what started to make OverWatch be less enjoyable for a lot of people was when the strength of characters compared to the degree of difficulty they required were whack in the sense that Moira just was a objectively better or brg is an objectively better hero than Genji was right where it's like okay well in order to be a good Genji you have to have be incredibly good at the hear this is more so OG Brig than current Brig but you could still argue it right um where those exchanges weren't fair and that drove a lot of people away from the game where it's like okay well I grinded all this time to be good at say Genji for example but it could be true for any character and somebody is picking bergita not putting in like half the effort I am and now I'm done so that that was just you know the difference of character strength if you go to the point where it's the ability to even access the character that's that feeling but exemp like even worse right it's even more so uh frustrating for a lot of people so I think I don't think it matters if it's quick play or competitive I think especially in competitive though you got to prioritize game Integrity there and I think that's a big reason why so many people have just stopped caring in this game and stopped caring a long time is like you know in the competitive mode I don't think anything should be locked ever for anybody especially given how important individual abilities are in overwatching general and especially true in the ability Exchange in 5v5 where it's like okay well I'm gonna say this I think anate is an essential ability and I think if they have to rework on aade before they rework any of the emos that people complained about for years I'm slamming my hammer down on 5v5 I swear I'm going to slam that but I'm waiting to see what they do but for example like Kiri suzu is so important especially if they pick Anna to the game itself that it's not fair that that should be locked from anybody at any given time I don't care if they're in plat I don't care if they're in bronze I think that one on principle quick play because it's quickplay it's more casual and people want fun exciting stuff quickplay is more of like the fortnite if you will and comp is more of the csgo I guess you could say in terms of the communities I'm not I'm not I'm not saying that like literally in terms of how they play I'm just saying like you know people play CS more seriously but fortnite's wacky it's fun there's constantly events right there's constantly some new skin I think Eminem came out out last week right you know or by the way you guys have not played Lego fortnite that [ __ ] is awesome you all have got to play Lego fortnite it is so much fun um but no I I think it's okay in quick play where it's supposed to be more wacky and you know I I want them to be able to make their money because it will hopefully allow them to get more resources who doesn't want to see that right um but in comp everybody should have everything in comp period GLE have you managed to collect your thoughts on this yeah it it's a pretty tough problem to solve to be honest I mean the only thing I can really think which would still kind of suck is that like if it's a hero from the previous season like maybe you'd have to unlock it before you can Q comp and maybe they lower the standards for unlocking it but even that would suck because like if you just want to play comp and you play OverWatch you get on it's like oh I gota win [ __ ] 20 games to get this hero like it is a bit much um it's a tough problem I'm not really sure how they solve that no that's fair it is a tough problem and it's not one that's cuz it's this is where you have to balance practicalities with with you know idealism right like idealism of course Jared himself said you we'd love for everyone to play the heroes and have them all on launch but again they did they said it at the start of OverWatch 2 that the heroes are our biggest product like the heroes are the things that people come toat for now of course there's there's skins and there's plenty of controversy around skins that we'll get to later on in the podcast but but I still think that maybe probably a small fraction of people ever buy skins and whereas the heroes you kind of all want the battle pass you kind of everyone is sort of incouraged to buy the battle pass every season so these are like their standard money makers so I can I can sympathize with that problem B any thoughts on that before we move on uh a little bit to like supports that have been alluded to my thought is that I had a funny thing happen I was I don't remember what I was doing I think I was just playing on a different account I wasn't doing unranked Gems or anything but I I was playing I think than or support I don't remember what it was and um the most optimal pick in that situation was like queen or something someone of my team was like can you swap Queen and then I went to swap Queen I didn't have her unlock I was just looking I was like [ __ ] wait this I can't I can't I I automatically might just lose the game because I have this hero lost because I it was funny I really know how to solve this I'm not like uh I don't know I I think they should have all the heroes unlocked and ranked and stuff um I'm I'm bliard they smart I'm sure they'll figure it out eventually it's I don't know go go crazy yeah I'm sure there are sophisticated systems they could create I agree with Sam in the sense that I I I also believe that like I think in comp they should just be unlocked like I there's an argument to be made that how can you let someone play a hero in comp they've maybe never played elsewhere but I still think just fundamentally when you enter the comp mode everyone should have old Heroes and then you know let them you know maybe they're gate captain in quick play if need be and maybe you can play them in the custom games or in arcade or something or there's like a specific arcade that you can play the hero in but I do think that the deeper we go the my my bigger problem isn't even the heroes on the launch of their season it's when you miss the season that's that's the bigger problem like it's not it like 45 whether we say like bring it down lower at the end of the day I think at some point people will unlock if they're if they're actually playing the game a lot they'll unlock all these Heroes as they're playing every season but if you ever miss a season or two you stop playing for a while obviously I I don't demand sympathy for alt accounts but I've also been in the situation Boger mentioned where it's like I forget I'm on an old account and I'm like oh I I want to go pick ilari oh [ __ ] I actually don't have her on this account but even just other players you know just you take a break from the game and you want to come back a while later you it's hard to expect someone to be constantly tuning in and constantly grabbing all the heroes and then punish them or a new player who decided somewhere down the line to try or watch 2 for the first time which I'm sure they would love they would love for that to be the case at a a large sued of new players try the game you're gonna feel a little bit shitty when everyone else is swapping around and you can't to the hero you want so any last words on this before we move on yeah go I want to say so why don't they make the system similar to like Apex and League where you collect points or maybe use pre-existing coins or whatever I don't know and you can buy characters with them so instead of just wins because the wins are really annoying right like it it's not the hardest thing to do but it's still annoying to do 35 wins or or like 40 uh level 45 instead just make it so you can buy with currency that you can stack up even when there is no new character to form so people that consistently play the game can always unlock the here when they're released and uh you can even make it a little bit better where if you're a mid game and you want to swap and you don't have the character locked and you have the coins you just press buy character right there and then you buy it unlock it and you play him you know like why not I think it's a great idea personally you could do it I think to close it out I kind of agree with Boger on that my my biggest gripe is the characters that are six months or older because that's what I noticed I wanted to go on an ALT to play an open q because if we all try to play in our Mains on the open q ladder like there's not usually games in GM or like high GM so he was sitting que for an hour but if you go on Alt with your friends there actually weren't ranked restrictions based on the SR where you queued and it was throwing us all over the place but I want they're like yo go remra I was like wait I don't have it unlocked and it just SP it just SP terrible it felt terrible and I started asking like people around that same question they're like yeah I missed this season so I don't have this and it's just it's just going to stockpile over time I think it's easy to say maybe six to nine months later you know or do what booger said with the with the points in game and I do think this is a unique problem for OverWatch compared to some of the other competitors although again Jared said we don't really have a specific competitor but OverWatch is the only game that I can think of where like the hero swapping exists so much right and they've now leaned into it you know they've now come out and said that they actually think this is going to be be the way that or is going forward Sam I I'm sure you had interesting thoughts we we might touch on that at some point about them saying actually we were wrong we were we were naive about the the thought that there wouldn't be hard counters in this game that there wouldn't be a bunch of people you know needing to swap and they kind of see that as the vision now and that just doesn't apply to you know League of Legends or valerant or any any of these other competitors where you know you have Heroes on low even Apex Legends because you can still just pick your hero and grind your hero and you're not necessarily flexing so much right you're like you like a couple things and you run those couple things if we're going to be in this world of OverWatch where you're encouraged to swap where you're encouraged to like dabble a little bit in a bunch of Heroes based off what's happening then we do need to then it becomes a gameplay issue to not have access to all the heroes for everybody so there's that's that I think we can now move on I that's a good wide discussion of MAA and what he's done to the game in that sense but there's one more thing that he has brought up and you guys have alluded to which is this idea of the supports and if do they control when it's especially it's aala miror I've definitely felt this where it's like if you're running on a KIRO they're running like more of Mercy it's kind of free um and of course there's been a lot of rage on Twitter recently about like suzu for example but I think Anna Nate has come under a lot of scrutiny and I'll chime in here first and and then I'll throw it over to you guys there I've seen a lot of people asking for Anna n to be nerfed basically they want Anna and N to be gone I would all I'd say to them is I I think be careful what you ask for like be careful the world you're trying to create cuz I already think hog is giga busted like I think that character is Mega busted and people have not quite CAU on to like how unkillable this dude is and Sam we've talked about this on previous podcast with flats and you your experiences playing doom and stuff but MAA Falls in that same category where trying to kill MAA without an Anna is horrendous and I think people are seeing it backwards they're seeing it as like oh look Anna is the only thing capable of killing a hog of killing aaga so we need to Nerf anade because it's so strong but what they're not thinking about is the other world where it's like well we we take anate away now what now how do you kill the hog AFK on card who's just going to vape like all the time damage reduction healing healing healing unkillable and it can keep trying to hook you and keep trying to interrupt your tank right so I think while I agree that there can be a better solution to Anna Aid like there can be ways to work around it you can maybe not make it 100% healing uh anti-healing you can you can maybe make it a smaller number a bigger cool down or take away the support passive so that Anna needs to n herself more all of these are viable options but I would hate to see them come before a Nerf to hog or MAA or a need or create a lack of a need for a hero like Anna to shut down certain tanks and the problem is you need Anna so first I'd like them to address the reason why you need Anna and make these other tanks killable without an anate so those are my thoughts on the anate debacle I want to take it to yle First yle how is your thoughts on the anti nade situation and just support in general I hate nade I hate it I feel like um I think the the good spot is like I don't want to play tank and get countered by one single hero on any of the other roles like if I'm G to get countered it's either like I want it to be a skill match up between me and the other tank or like their whole team's trying to counter me type of thing like if it feels like I'm getting shut down by one hero I I just find that so like toxic for the game um just because like tanks such an important role you don't want to be trading one for one right like if this was chess the the Tank's like we'll say a queen piece and then theana is probably like a bishop or something right like it's not a good trade to trade like your value um so overall I mean I don't know exactly what they do with nade um I hope they do change it because it's it's been the source of my unfun playing the tank roll I I'd say like when I was having fun playing ratra when he released I just remember it was good for one season and then the next season there was more and more on I'm just like bro I can't do anything about it like I throw my shield up then she nades the side or she still sleeps me when it's down like I just don't like not having any control over it other than wait until she uses it well she just doesn't use it then I'm waiting for nothing you know I just find that to be obnoxious but I wish I had like a good answer but I don't have like a specific solution for it no that's a very fair complaint I think that's a very fair thing to bring up and and you're right in that a lot of people feel this way that like danna's just chucking her cooldowns at me and I can't play the game on tank like she just sleep anti sleep anti sleep anti and and of course there's other cool Downs you have to wait for too right people talk about like oh wait for the cooldowns to come out or bait them out but I'm not only trying to bait anti and sleep which are being cycled but there a suu I've got to wait for or maybe I got to wait for the Discord orb to wear off of me you know like there's so many other things you're waiting for by the time you're done the next round is back so I totally understand the frustration Boger I'm going to take it to you and then I'll let Sam round off this this discussion Boger how do you feel about I love Nate I think it's a great ability I'm not joking I disagree with though I think it's a good ability and I I as a tank player uh I think a lot of people misunderstand the concept like frustrations and like what like a lot of people get frustrated with abilities and then they get like really mad and they think the ability needs to be changed maybe the ability needs to be changed but I don't think the issue stems from Nate I think we didn't have this issue in OverWatch one and we didn't have this issue in over watch one because all the tanks except a few uh could deal with Nate right and even if you couldn't deal with Nate your other tank could deal with Nate I'm not talking about 6v6 5v5 is better wants to say something I am very I'm Swit in that opinion I really care personally but my honest opinion is that every new tank release in OverWatch 2 has been a tank that has nothing to deal with Nate like you can't deal with Nate like if you compare Winston you have bubble and it's a really fun mini game where you try to Bubble the nade and play around it and if you get n you can jump away Diva could Matrix it that's fun orisa back in the day could you know just place a shield down like Road Hog would get punished by it but there was another tank to help him out and I I'm okay with only one or two tanks getting punished by a nade because the tank is like just you know that way you know Road Hog I'm okay with Nate crushing Road Hog 100% of the time because he heals a lot but every new T that's been released by OverWatch 2 and OverWatch 2 has been like ratra he has a Shield but you can't really block nade with you you can but not consistent right uh you have Queen you can't block nade you can shout but you still die uh if the enemy team is good uh MAA you can't block nade and um did they release any new tanks I don't think so but the yeah you can't do anything like it's like you're playing the game and there's nothing for you to do except hope that your Kil cleanse the nade that will come and you have no way to counteract it so I don't believe uh that nade in itself is uh the problem I believe that they have not given tanks the tools necessary to counteract nade in a fun way that is that makes the game more engaging like Winston bubble Diva Matrix even with B if like obviously I don't want to explain the game to you on bow but my idea is that like when you're playing bow you have your Shields even if you get NED you you can still survive pretty consistently I feel like against like Anna unless she sleeps you so I feel like this issue with Nate and this hatred with nade comes with uh comes from the fact that they have not given us the tools to deal with nade and instead just relied on our teammates helping us with it which makes the game really un fun because you can't rely on your teammates and R CU like some guy called boner fart four is not going to play KIRO and you're going to die every fight and it's really annoying so I think we're all focused on the wrong thing I think we should be focusing on uh on on on like what they should be giving thanks to be able to deal with CC as well and NES like again like OverWatch one TKS there was a bunch of CC yes but we still had tools to deal with CC in OverWatch 2 tanks don't have tools with to deal with CC in OverWatch 2 tanks are DPSS and that's it you know there's no you know anything to it like Queen is like a DPS yeah ratu is kind of like a DPS ma is a DPS 100% so we don't have utility and we just kind of pray that she won't land the Nate and that's annoying let's just boring yeah that's my opinion yeah yeah so I was gonna say I'm gonna let yle go on this before because I know Sam you I'm sure you're you're cooking right now all I'll say is I think we discussed this a lot in the in the various role debates you know the tank debate support debate I think the idea we're talking about here is ability mitigation I think I I like that term to refer to this is a lot of Tanks have damage mitigation but not all of them have ability mitigation which is like how do you deal with a a thing being thrown at you like that right and I think that you know a lot of people say well anti Nate is like this one thing that's sticks out and therefore it's limiting design of Tanks but all I'll say is that this is a core issue they need to think about because in the future they may release another thing like antiage from a different character that whether that be a DPS or support So if this idea is that tanks struggle tanks without ability mitigation struggle to deal with the thing it may crop up again when they release X hero so there does need to be an answer somewhere whether that's nerfing these type abilities or creating something for the tank GLE you tell me now how do you respond to boger's idea that like actually it's it's it's good anade good yeah I'm I'm on both sides of it like I think the solution is either you could change anade or you can start giving all the tanks counterplay but at this point like as we're getting another tank that doesn't have any counterplay to it I think the solution would probably be easier to change nade because we're racking up all the tanks that can't do anything so are we gonna start giving all these tanks some kind of solution or just change the nade that's that's why where I'm at I'm like like either way I feel like I'm sorry I feel like if you don't if you change Nate it's going to make a lot of Tanks really oppressive very consistently like I'm not saying they're going to be op 100% of the time but like imagine playing against MAA road hogo right now without n it's it's going to be hell on Earth for four players on your team maybe even five right it's going to be so annoying right and I feel like I we should change the core philosophy of how we make future tanks and maybe change the current tanks a little bit because as as be said if we Nerf nade right now they will will release an ability like nade in the future that will again make tanks struggle because it's not about the nade or the ability in specific it's about how tanks are created right now and how we are not given the tools to deal with these things I would rather have TS deal less damage and be less of a DPS character and have more utility like Winston for example so the game is more engaging and I can deal with CC and nade more consistently then just run around and shoot the tanks 24/7 and pray that I don't get NED later down the line they're going to introduce a different type of CC for sure and tank will still struggle because they've not given us these tools even if they Nerf Nate right now it's not going to solve the issue I feel like y any final response for I let Sam go because I know he's he's ready no that that was it you're happy with it okay Sam go ahead go ahead samll you guys crack me up you know that you guys crack me up watching you guys slowly come to the realization right slowly but surely that everything we claim that we could do is actually harder and SBB to acknowledge your point I I I do appreciate blizzard basically saying yeah we were wrong about the counter thing I don't I don't think anybody really saw it coming to be fair to them um even like us on the show we were kind of like hey we got to wait and see so to be fair to them as at least they acknowledge it now um I'm I love nade I love Anna I never think I never thought nade was one of the biggest problems in the game um and I think the only reason it's become a problem is a couple things right because remember at launch like Anna was not picked at all we all said Anna was terrible right because of Kiri um and monkey being in the meta instead of the tanks uh that have come up um a couple thing I think it's a good point that Boger made that I didn't think about where he basically said the past three tanks that have come out none of them have had real ability mitigation it's all been damage mitigation or the B basically even even his heel even mous heel is going against it kind of is damage mitigation in that like you're shooting to mitigate the damage and heal out heal the damage you take and then Queens was just the shout so you haven't had a tank like Diva come out that actually and be strong that would make Anna obsolete in one second and we all know it right because she just wouldn't she just wouldn't get played um nade is so important to stopping a couple of those tanks that can be oppressive like Road Hog like MGA like even even Queen sometimes right depending on on the map that you're on and the character that you're on um I think that that being in the game used to add a lot of depth because Nate's been around for a long time and Nate was Anna was not complained about towards the latter half of OverWatch one I think the key thing is here is why is it able to be used so much easier and this might be where they I hate to admit they might have to change the ability but if they change nade they better change some of these imos too because there's no excuse to not do that at this point if everyone has been hating on this um I got Sidetrack a little bit there sorry uh what was I saying what was I saying before this um uh how the heroes have been released like DPS no Mobility mediation Yeah so basically the tanks that came out previously uh are all susceptible to n and also the support passive lets it always get used forward instead of being right on the onon she had to n herself a ton of OverWatch one that you now that you don't you don't have to do that to top it off there's one less tank on each team which means that Landing the nade is without a doubt easier um which is why I can understand there's some frustrations about it right it's it's easier to we can all agree guys it is so much easier to land aads in this game so if it's easier to land nades you never have to use it on yourself I can understand why people would want it nerfed but you have to be very careful about doing so because if you do you need nade to be good against hog you need Nate to be good against wga you it adds depth to the game and I think I know people are saying oh hard counters it's it's not a hard it kind of it's close to a hard counter but there are ways you can deal with it it's just not rewarding to deal with it right so I I would start with the support passive before I change nade um but you know that would solve a bigger issue because again it's just going to come back up it's lit it's just going to come back up it always will there will be a new character that does something like that there will be or whether it's Queen whether it's another Anna I don't know right but it's I think a a permanent solution is to look at the support passive and make it so that the anas are more encouraged to n themselves and it's not always hey I can check a free nade not take damage for two seconds on a corner where I'm playing in the backline anyway where the single tank and I'm sure yle and Boger will both agree here it's much more difficult to all in a backline in this game because you leave your team and I'm not saying it's not possible Right but it's generally it's not as consistent because you like in OverWatch one or even Boger I remember playing against you in ml7 Duos all the time you farm the Nano then you could just jump straight on the backline you can let your Diva Flex whether the Divas going in with you are going to peel your backline and you were open to go make that play that's it's harder to do that in this game because the fights are much more meshed together than a lot of micro fights happening everywhere um but no I I don't want to see nade get changed yet personally I I love the ability I love playing Anna and I think that she's just continuous she's been nerfed again and again she was only good for a little bit too but now she's just been nerfed and nerfed and nerfed and overshadowed and you know I I don't want Anna to bite the bullet for a support passive that's really really good a a situation where you you make the switch to 55 and like a lot of the those Band-Aids where hog is competing with all the other tanks to the spot okay well he needs to have less weakness to his counter or else he'll never get picked it's harder I I get it but I'm not sure if changing the ability is is the right way to go and it is a tough one as as they've released themselves like Anna is the most played character in overwat 2 which some might say is is she's played because she's so strong and you know that that she's always meta I heard this complaint well she's always been meta in OverWatch 2 like people are always playing her but also we might say that it's because she's very fun because people enjoy playing her and they find that you know skill to reward ratio to be to be you know something they want to engage with rather than maybe playing a different hero that might be a bit more free which brings me to my next next point yle which is just like this you know whether it's nade or whether it's suzu whether it's Rez whether it's immortali we're kind I I feel like support players feel a little bit under attack at the moment you know they've kind of had these accusations that they're the strongest role and you know they get all the good [ __ ] and i' I'm seeing the sentiment rise amongst support players that you know they want everything that we love gone like they want all our love our beloved things taken away and you know now MAA releases he's kind of op and we' kind of always bouncing between these two states of like tanks are unkillable they're like unkillable raid bosses and then it's like supports are dominating the game and they never die and then you know occasionally we'll have like a sniper meta it's like well I I lose if I don't have a Widowmaker is there like obviously the community is always going to complain but is there a healthier way to balance all this like can we make suzu and anate and imos a bit more engaging and and can we make tanks feel killable but still strong as they were promised to be at Watch 2 is there is there a world we can do this I think there is I think like making the cooldowns longer is like one of the problems like they should just make them shorter cooldowns with maybe just like a little less strength in them I think that's one way they could definitely go about it because every patch right it's just like on a a cool down goes up by one second um suzu goes up by a second immortality field being like 20 something seconds like what if they were just weaker but had a shorter coold down that way you're like you're more engaged more actively like doing something in the fights other than you know just healing and clicking um but I I I'm I'm still a believer that they haven't hit supports hard enough and I know a lot of support players are going to like that but I I play like all the roles and so I know firsthand that like I haven't even played tank that much that just more fun and just like more rewarding overall so yeah that's that's about what I got yeah and you yeah before anyone labels that accusation you know you hit like top 500 on like all these roles all the time and you know you grinded lari for a long time so you it's not this is not a a tank bias this is your experience correct like just from playing the roles yeah yeah I probably played tank the least in OverWatch 2 to be honest I think I'm starting to catch up on the other like DPS and support combined I think I'm starting to play more that than tank at this point which also is is your position Boger where you've kind of spent the majority of the last few seasons playing support now like is there a a way where we balance these considerations you said this like tank as M was like the first time you had fun playing tank in a while but do we how do we make it to like people are unhappy I think support is piss easy and I think support players that complain are [ __ ] stupid I'm sorry I am that is my honest to go opinion I am sorry to everyone I don't know why support players complain it is [ __ ] crazy I que up K on my main account I am I have not played K in my life I swear I just shoot in a r in varation and get a four kills it is what the [ __ ] is this character right like is she op or anything maybe a little bit I think Anna is really good I think an played often cuz it's just a really fun character to play also counters some characters like M and Road Hog so I think that's why but lri Baptist KIRO what the hell is going on there I these character is so piss easy it is instant value I I queue up against cloudy I don't lose the game because cloudy outplayed me I lose the game because the enemy team picked the correct support characters and know how to play the support characters I am I played support a lot I barely played tank and tank sucks like I'm not saying tank sucks like in the sense that he's just weak he just it's just the gameplay in itself is just so boring to play thing because you need to either play Sigma or play something else and you can't really you know play really aggressively and you to play around your supports and you need to swap and counter swap I don't like that gameplay I think it's boring I can pick KIRO and it's going to work in every situation I can pick lari is going to work in every situation I can pick Baptist is going to work in every situation I can just go around and if I want to turn off my brain and just click buttons and win games I go support I I can say that cuz I've been playing support the last six months I've played all the characters uh I really like life Weaver though there's some things I would like to be changed for them but I like him I like him because he's different I like him because he's different because it's a different type of gameplay you don't queue up life and just win the game because you out DPS the enemies but you que up life and you win the game because you outbrain them that's why that's [ __ ] awesome that's fun they no in OverWatch one there were so many interactions where you had to outbrain people and made it really fun so with C uh [ __ ] flash right you when you're Genji and you try to One V one him there's a lot of Min games you know I'm going to throw my uh I'm going to deflect the The Flash but then he's going to flash under my leg so I'm going to play around that and same with Rin Shield right you can outplay him right Winston bble with nades Diva Matrix with grabs there's so many fun interactions that made the game really really interactive now it's like I throw N I throw suzu game over GG that's it you know like I go in with kiru I hit two shots in the head it's GG it's over magnetic grenade I throw a grenade in the general direction of the Winston he's stuck he's dead go GG it's over right there's no counter play it's so annoying right so I'm sorry again to support players a lot of people are going to hate me this row needs some changes or other rows need changes like I I'm okay with support being really strong but other goals need to be strong as well right I think is stronger than the other roles and I much rather have every Ro be fun and op maybe people will disagree then make support really weak and then have all the roles be really boring and weak right so that's my opinion and uh that's what I think now Sam obviously this this almost feels like a perfect setup for you in some ways and I got I got Hulk in there in chat right now and he's like yo yo this is he's speaking some truth right now he's on he's on to something right now I mean one thing I will say is that you know you you're free to go off on the this is the 6v6 problem if you want to another thing I will say is that as Boger points out a lot of the way things have been balanced in watchu has been to often just remove counterplay out out of them right the remove the ability for them to be worked around and I I I feel this most pressingly against this is why I hate hog right now right because I feel like they what they did to balance him they were like let's make it so that nothing he does can be countered right like he his Vape can't be interrupted his can't be interrupted anymore so this is like no way to actually get at this hero anymore and that in their way like this is balanced now right this is we balanced him cuz hey you were having trouble getting nated while you're vaping tank yeah you can't have weakness as a tank when you're the solo tank or you'll never get picked over the other tanks that don't have weaknesses of those things right where all the interactions go but this is true of other Heroes too right this is true of other Heroes too like the the magn bang again so much harder to dodge the KIRO example it's like what is the counterplay to to suzu or to teleporting through a wall like there there is none so go ahead in the direction you feel it's which part did you want me to answer the most there whatever you feel is the most pressing like what do you think is actually what it all boils down to is it a Dev like could they make it so it's not could they make it so they're not always removing counterplay or is it just is this a fundamental issue you still believe it's it's it's not all a fundamental issue like there are some things that they could probably do better of like actually like adding legitimate counterplay to like boger's on the money here completely um before we before I go into specifically how he's on the money with like how interactions work with counterplay like that that those kind well I guess I'm GNA go into it like those matchups like Genji versus Cass like how you could try to outplay the N that was so much fun that's what made the game so beautiful is that you know there weren't overrides right like Ryan with sha both of them having shatter there's no way to override that right walking up like everything you did walking up to the fight to preserve your Shield which corner am I walking up where's their off tank stuff like that where it was all to set up the the mind game of of how that exchange could happen and there were almost infinite options it felt like which is even in goats meta too it didn't matter The Meta if it was Ryan V Ryan there was those Mind Games always and like that's why there's almost an unsung saying with Ryan players about you know how they'd set up shatters or the different styles of shatters that people always used to meme about right and that's so much fun and the game used to have a lot of that um but specifically I think in the tank role specifically it's C like them having to cover up issues and remove counterplay is caused by format I think most of the time you look at tanks because again if that tank wants to be a competitive pick it can't have a lot of weaknesses or else it will just be overshadowed by something else when it's competing with every other hero just for one spot but if it could fill into the spot you'd have a lot more chances to actually keep that play in the game but when it comes to support and I want to give blizzard credit I I do think supports are too strong but what they have done a good job of doing is making so that you can pick any support and get value a lot of the time right and that's a good goal to aim for in the game and I think if you look at what people were saying beta W making support approachable probably was the number one goal the team had and they definitely did that I think there's a way where you can back off the Reigns a little bit and have it not come at the expense of particularly the tank players who feel it the most like it's annoying as DPS like in metra's videos where KIRO can take a KIRO can take a duel at zero risk it doesn't matter what the situation is what's done like this is the Classic this this is where I'm going to call out sport players and you guys can't Gaslight me either because I played Brig and freaking contenders I played Anna in that meta too and my highest peak in this game is on support okay so don't even give me this stuff I'm just going to come for you guys right now support players are the biggest gaslighters in the community okay these people four years have done nothing but avoid the point over and over and over again and it is so annoying to see and I I saw it happen with Metro where they're they try to get listen I started the war against Moira I walked so all you biters could run okay and I dude I they they they crucified me for that but I'm glad to see you all fighting the good fight but the issue it's so annoying to see these Twitter debates and I'm just gonna go into the drama for a second where Metro makes a point and then he's like hey you know these waffles aren't made right you're you're you're at Waffle House right and they're making all kinds of pancake oh this is about to be one of my best analogies ever you're at Waffle House you you Brits might not or Europeans might not know what Waffle House is God bless you if you don't I can put two and together waffle in the I got you I WAFF house no but you got to understand a lot of crazy things happen if you ever end up in a Waffle House in Florida be careful that's all I'm gonna say but you know it's Metro says hey it's dumb that she can tpe through the walls right hey these waffles aren't made right and then they come over okay oh yeah well the pancakes are right over there and they'll point to something that has nothing oh well Metro you were dueling in their spawn yeah he was but the Kiri got to take the Duel at no risk while he's committing Risk by being there and if you're a good player you have to learn how to assess risks to reward and what made the most interesting OverWatch players so interesting and fun to watch is that some of the best players I think defran to name one of them way back in the day the way that the stuff that he used to do dude in like season 4 nobody's seen that before right this dude would be running into their spawn 1 v sixing a soldier like no one no one was doing that right was it a dumb duel yeah but because he was so talented he actually won those Duss right and that made the game interesting to watch and there weren't any Heroes that could just get around that until they started adding these support Heroes and all the support players never want to address the fact that they can take the Duss for free a lot of the time and just TP out they have the override buttons the issue is not how you're using it it's why should you be able to do so in the first place and that's why svb on the previous group up I brought up Ki tping through walls and I of course and and Daniel talked me off of it a little bit right I was like all right Daniel you're right she's got a negative win rate I think this is stupid but then they buffed her heel travel time and a couple other things too and so I still think that it's really dumb and I still think support players are the biggest gaslighters I just went on a massive rant about it but Metro is right the supports have these kinds of abilities I think OverWatch would benefit more from the developers peeling back on support just a little bit just a little it doesn't need to be a whole lot from this point right n shouldn't get changed a couple things other shouldn't get changed but find a way to make DPS and tank is approachable as the support cast that's what I think they've done a 10 out of 10 job on like you can almost play any support anywhere and that's why people enjoy playing sport so much because there's never a moment where you're like you just feel overwhelmed and the game feels like complete dooo you can pick anything to anything and that's and that's good on their part yeah Fair thank you for that uh wide ranging emphatic statement there yle I'm going to let you respond because we've had some passionate takes there from Bano B and samito do you have any uh anything you want to add or anything that you really resonated with yeah just continuing that last part of like how they made they nailed support but a tank and DPS don't exactly like have it I think a part of the reason why you can like play any support and not really have as much of a problem is just because like they're they're a lot more like flexible in a way right like what are you gonna do to counter a KIRO what are you gonna do to counter like an Anna yeah you can dive her but Di can also just play further away like there there's a way to just make it so that they're they're not as like one-dimensional and easy to just like oh okay I'm going to swap to this hero and that's it that that Anna is done for that KIRO is done for that Baptista is done for I think think it stems something from like how flexible the uh the support heroes are so I'm not really sure but they can definitely translate that somewhere into tank and DPS I think it's just the flexibility and the the ability to outplay there's a lot of outplay potential as a support so I think that's what it is and the passive I think the passive makes it feel so good I'm gonna keep talking about that passive that passive is honestly I don't listen I'm not a fan of passives but if supports have the passive ability to heal DPS should get the same one all can wait can we actually just give DPS a passive I don't think they have one what is their passive even it's reload speed that's it they don't have a passive Hano still doesn't reload he never reloads so he doesn't even have a passive so let DPS heal listen that that's what I'll say fine okay supports you guys want to stay strong okay let DPS regen Tracer will be Perma plan like you know it's that's how strong it is bro if you gave them that be crazy on DPS it'll be nuts my point that's what I'm saying like that's why support feels so busted ask yourself this if you gave DPS the support passive how busted would it be can we give it to thanks as well give it to everybody give it to actually give it to everybody if you want them to be even and the game might I'm you know I'm really curious what would happen I'm not saying I I don't like passives just to be clear I think if a hero needs a passive it should be specific but that would be a crazy like thought experiment just see happen if everybody could that that could be a gauntlet challenge for usvv can we just remove passes I I want I want to yeah I hav see like tanks getting boo plus whatever I'm ready to sacrifice that oh okay maybe okay actually I GRS though I like no no okay okay I don't I don't think they should remove the thing where you charge less from tanks cuz MAA for example charger cons so fast and and it's just purely from the tank is crazy okay maybe keep that but they can move everything else [ __ ] it let the tanks get moved I don't care I'm I'm ready to sacrifice sit there sitting there like you know SK and Frogg are sitting there like Lucio I play Lucio today you can't Boop thans I I actually understand them now you actually can't Bo them at all it's insane I love how he went from everybody gets the the passive to nobody gets the passive now the commun the communism intensifies brother like we we all we all win or we all lose like that's how it be Carl marks is out there like my legacy has been carried on you know no I mean I I I do agree with that sentiment as well like I on the Boop thing I I I felt this where it's like there's just you just you can't Boop them anymore and I I understand again it's like when we or certainly most of us criticize some of these Design Elements they're not necessarily to say that these were always wrong and always stupid and the devs are dumb for implementing them at launch of War 2 it seemed like a good idea everyone was like yeah like the tanks should be Boop lless cuz we anticipated that there was going to be a lot of pressure and a lot of [ __ ] being thrown in tanks in reality it's not the boops that really are the killer it's just the mass amounts of crowd control otherwise right the stuns and the slows it's not actually like getting booped yeah would suck but I think you're in less situations now where the booping is is a real occurrence anyways like this is more like these Fringe situations where you get on certain maps and you try to make a play as like a Lucio or somebody and you're like I'm going to knock this tank off and then you like Boop them and they like barely move an inch and they come right back at you I mean compare Lucio Bo to Zen KCK Bo zen zen KCK Bo's crazy like what what the hell is going there Lucio Bo boops like if Zen can Boop more than Lucio what the hell are we doing like give them the Boop it's fine I agree I agree uh did you guys say Lucio was more fun in OverWatch one I think Lucio's [ __ ] dog [ __ ] right now I'm sorry for swearing but I think it's horrible I'm sorry for I'm sorry for my French but I think Luci is absolutely horrible right now right I I said it maybe in Pro play he's fine he's always been good in Pro play but I I'm talking about ranked right if I get a Luci in my team I'm Rel to all F4 90% of the time I I think he's like suffered from like the outdated thing like I I think he could still be like a strong pick but he's not a fun pick similar to ball and I I'll explain why because one so a lot of the supports now will just straight up win the 1 V one you got Kiri you got lari they'll just two tap you the the support passive as well so you can't poke them out then go for the engage on the supports because they'll just get the healing and then to top it all off um I just had a brain for it so I I forgot I was gonna say but yeah the Boop and ball as well you gonna say the Boop and ball the Boop that's what it was yeah so just go ahead hey let him finish you you good no no you go I'm good I'm good I'm good you go ahead well so this is a a theme in general I've noticed in OverWatch too one it's because there's one less player but two again we talked a little bit about this earlier in that you know a lot of those counter plays and big big exchanges are just kind of getting overridden you know I think ball and Lucio are very similar in that they won a ton of games in OverWatch one especially on the right maps by getting big boops multi- boops on Le Jang Garden right where when there were two tanks that both could actually get booped th those were two more instances that Lucio and ball as well on the right Maps had to displ or just get get you could get a Fight Win by the ability to look for those engages that like they just don't exist in this game not not to the degree that they did before where you know when you were playing as Lucio or ball on lean Garden for example you know there there was a chance that you had six players coming across a bridge or walking across to that one side of point that you could Boop any one of them and get a big Advantage with right now like that just won't happen because both tanks aren't boopable and in order to compensate for one tank most supports have a Mobility ability that would save them that they didn't have in OverWatch one or new character design right like KIRO even if you get the Boop she can TP away so I think those opportunities just simply aren't there um and that's just a part a byproduct of the new game to be fair another aspect of that would just be the change of the maps like one of the one of the most frequent areas would be 2cp for something like what you're talking about where there's a lot of entrenched positions right like Anubis I remember yle used to love that map on Ball and it's just like it's because you can because you know they're going to be set up here so you can go around in a certain way I knocked them off here and now I've I've done what I needed to or they're going to go through this choke coming through attack and I'm G to just knock them as they're coming and and now they're like you know so that I think that that that is where like a tactical element was lost in favor of the more FPS element of like everyone's everywhere and flanking whereas obviously in some ways what we disliked about 2zb was the like it's it's just people setting up a bunker on a certain spot is also what allowed these tactical elements to exist is that is that a fair statement y yeah for sure I [ __ ] I miss Anubis I wish they'd bring it back Anubis was great put me on junkrat oh that was a flex DPS players dream map dude you remember playing doomfist on that map or junkrat on that map with a trap on the right I know my buddy Razer is freaking out right now he's like dude put me on junkrat on that map put me on Jill good times man good times I mean b blades do you have any thoughts on this I mean you've said so far you're kind of yeah you're Switzerland at the moment you said you're like I'm Switzerland 6v6 55 and like you know there's a danger of us nostalg ising too heavy about the good old days of OverWatch one but are you okay with like losing these elements for what 5v5 has brought I think I think like there was a lot of issues with 6v6 that people just forget about and uh there was a lot of annoying aspects right I I don't think it was perfect I don't think 55 is perfect I think it's like matter of preference really I see the good and the bad both like I see what we lost when we got 5v5 like what s was talking about I do miss these aspects a lot but uh there was a lot of annoying aspects in in 6v6 and you know I I see why people enjoy both parts so I don't really take sides in it because I I get both points right I feel like supports definitely are having way more fun now with 5v5 um I think DPS players I don't know what the [ __ ] is happening with DPS I think DPS sucks I'll be honest I I think the RO just kind of sucks I like it's just so boring it's like either kill the tanks or get Giga pocketed and one shot everything it's like whatever boring but um 2cp um I TP was kind of Bor some maps think TP were boring I like Vaya I always like Vaya people would disagree I think V was really good Paris was really bad I think Horizon was kind of okay depends what comp you played I feel like if you touched up the maps a bit you know you changed like they changed jalter I don't think anyone would say that jalta changes were bad nobody has ever said that I think the things they changed with the map were really good and somebody who loves jibral I think everything they did with jial was great and uh they made them map a lot more fun so I feel like if they touch up the TCP stuff make it you know the same idea with how they touched Gibralter like the main issue with TP is most of the time you had one choke point you go through right so Hana Mur for on first point you could go through the window and stuff but that depends on the character you play and you just had you were kind of forced to go down the same choke and it was really stucked cuz if the enemy team played high damage comps you have to really struggle to organize your team to go through the choke and do things so that sucked so if they allow more ways to enter change up some stuff and I feel like it could be really refreshing and really awesome for the community to get back those maps and uh CU it's like one two three four like five Maps or something four or five maps and people going to be like I bet a lot of people going to come back just to play hanur or rosaya again or Anubis again and it's going to be hype and having five more maps in the pool is gonna be great awesome stuff that's my opinion the conversion has begun Sam is this uh brainwashing from Sam well I was never so I've always been kind of neutral on 2cp like I remember when people were saying to remove it I was like sure I guess you know I was more so looking forward to push um but no I mean I I think 2cp can work I think it had a lot of strategy allowed for a lot of styles of comps to get played That You Don't See elsewhere and I well sky was one of my favorite Maps like I was an OG Hanzo player like Maps like that were really really good for ult Combos and grab Dragon a couple other ones right that were Hanzo was great for like V sky was one of hanzo's best maps like some of the most classic games that I loved were on volskaya or Anubis was great for doomfist and junkrat right so really hamura is great for torb so really TCP was kind of the only format now that I think about that was good for my role in Flex DPS like that was the only time you you really saw projectile Heroes get played consistently even phah on first hanamura right um I get why people didn't like it I do 100% um but I wouldn't be against seeing it again you know that's that's just me I was never before people like oh these streamers are so Hypocrites I was never on the anti 2cp train I was like okay sure like I I'm in I hate 2cp I just wish they changed them up a bit like I don't know they just kept they said they're going to change up progress but they never changed it they just removing it same with Horizon yeah no they change they changed Horizon but it didn't but they remov tried it but they yeah then they removed again it was the issue was 0.1 right the issue was really 0.1 and how hard it is to make those wraps against those bunker comps but I do like to be honest I did I did like the strategy I did like playing dive the real issue and why people hated it so much is that the bunker comps got so broken and they were never nerfed properly that's that's why well wow it went bad after Bap got put in the game I wonder why it's like oh wow you dive them and even if they misuse everything oh emmo it's fine can we rant about bapy SL and why the hell is that ability still with things after three four years or whatever like I get reworked first I don't understand why Baptist lamb keep get keeps getting you know no changes like it either gets like small Buffs or like nothing changes or like plus two seconds to the cool down or something it's like who the hell care I hate that baptis has free health bars what What It's Like A Boss you go into Dark Souls and then you go into Dark Souls and the Boss Arena opens up and it's like it's not like [ __ ] godrick or whatever it's it's literally Baptist the unkillable right you go in he one shots you across the map you get to zero HP almost and then heals up to fo instantly and then you almost kill him again then he puts a lamp down you're like okay cool guy you can't dive the character it's ridiculous I hate that character so much oh but Boger you've gotten value out of baiting the cooldowns out that's what your whole life should your whole life should revolve around baiting out a couple cool Downs you just can't One V one the character you can with MAA God forbid but uh but you can't like Winston just dive the Baptist yeah just dive him I'm going to dive him sure it's going be awesome great I think there's no option there to to add on to what we said earlier svb remember how you talked about like the exchange and the mind games of it all right I we I think people in general want to see less abilities like that where it's like hey there's no mind games here it's this is an override that's why it's be so frust I feel like it'd be so frustrating to see on a nade get nerfed because while it is super super strong and we talked about this earlier like it doesn't completely stop your ability to make a decision like you could still get value if you were committed to something is it going to be harder and way riskier yes but the fact that that could get changed before Bap imemo which completely overrides suu which completely overrides that's not that mind game of OverWatch that made playing tank in OverWatch one fun for a lot of people but now you see a lot of these people going to support where it's it just gets the most value it's it's the it's such a chill role to play it really is just a such a chill role to play I I want to take it back to another thing you guys mentioned on that whole 2cp issue of like well you know the streamers changed their minds Hypocrites I I I just want to like mini rant a little bit about the lack of flexibility that people give to just having an opinion because obviously like whether this is for us or whether it's for the devs things change in ways we didn't anticipate right like variables occur and the game changes Heroes release and we discover what we thought was going to happen isn't what actually happens and it's okay to change your mind like I think one of the most frustrating things is that people feel like they have to be locked into a certain opinion forever because they once believed this thing or because they are like I'm a support Ro player so I have to you know always defend the supports or I'm a tank player so I always have to defend the tanks where it's like the devs I think I applaud them for acknowledging that they were like you know Jared was very candid he's like we were naive we thought we could make a game without hard counters but actually no we just can't we have a game where you Swap and there's so many Heroes that have unique abilities so we can't we'd rather not basically between the lines what he was saying is we don't want to sacrifice that we don't want to make our heroes not unique and not have them have cool abilities so that means something has to be lost and that means there's going to be some hard counters in this game and even though I may not like counter watch as a fundamental approach to OverWatch I can respect that I can respect that they take that opinion like look we were wrong on that I think I think more of us should show that openness to be like look we thought you know tanks would work like this like we did with the passive right we thought maybe would need the Boop resistance but actually I don't think tanks need the Boop resistance and we maybe thought the supports needed the sell healing but I don't think they need the self healing and maybe maybe I'm not saying we are or we aren't but maybe we've reached the point where like actually maybe we can bring 2cp back what everyone hat about 2cp was the full stacking bunker comps that just spammed and you had to like it was impossible to break them and you couldn't there was only one choke as you guys have mentioned like there's only one choke to come through if you just add a second entrance and now bunkers don't bunker comps don't really exist in OverWatch 2 so well you're not going to you're not going to face the same problems maybe it's worth experimenting again right we don't know but it's worth opening up the idea that maybe we were wrong all of us or some of us were wrong and we we might the situations changed and we can figure out a new solution needle do you have any thoughts on any what was mentioned whether that's this idea about 2cp or if you want to rant about B immo you can go you can go for a bit what is on your mind I mean I'm I'm on the train of of nade and uh you know immortality and even cleanse all being hit at the same time I'm I've been for that I think I think they all need to get hit um so that's my take on that and as for 2cp like I think it's just a shame that that it's been put on the Shelf you know like a lot of it just comes down to I think it's the stall Fest on second point and like the approachability of some maps like I remember Anubis as like a really good map minus when people ran snipers that was always rough um just because like on second point you had so many options you can go main you can go left side you can go left side down to the mega or you can go right side you had so many options to approach second point but you think of like hanamura second point that [ __ ] was hell like Main's pretty much not an option because you're on terrible low ground versus three different High grounds and then it's basically only go top and Top's just this narrow little Corridor where once again they both they still have high ground they have Middle High ground and then top right High ground so I think that was just hore was just a bad MAP uh design for second Point um but overall like we kind of have like one CP if you think about it hybrid it's capture the first point so I think they just have to nail the second point for 2cp I I hope to see it come back one day but um of course when it's good and better I think it was good that it was gone from the get-go of OverWatch 2 though because like in where it was I could see that being very frustrating for new players so yeah yeah I agree I think it was a good decision to take out when they did but yeah then maybe maybe it's open into consideration and bear in mind we will be getting five CP coming up oh yeah in the in the next year like the devs have already announced this at like a five CP mode is is is upon us so maybe that will give us more insight as well into how if a 2cp was to come back and of course we're getting a budget hanamura right we're getting like hanamura hanoka right it's like they're they're reworking hanamura into hanoka so we will get we will get to see these things so may maybe that is the other way maybe rather than going back to 2cp all the 2cp maps can become five CP just add three more and see what we can do with them so there there's options there anything else you guys want to add about these topics that we've discussed before we move on to talk about like some of the more current events like winter wonderland stuff no we good anyone say anything about herob bands has that been talked about before on the the podcast no no actually hasn't because we we don't really have too many details of what their plans are but I'm happy to go into it a little bit obviously we've had we' had a dedicated podcast on the idea of herob bands uh but we haven't had a specific discussion since the devs have announced that this is an idea they're experimenting with and I think another interesting tidbit that I was able to get from from Jared is that they are very open to fundamental changes to OverWatch you know they're they're looking at these things all the time they're not wedded to the idea that OverWatch is and will play in a certain way like obviously we've seen some versions of this with like the quick play respawn thing right like how you respawn quicker with your team uh in quick play so they're not averse to these ideas so yle go ahead and Lead Me into like what what made you bring up the idea of hero bands and like what what what is what's on your mind yeah personally I think I think the game's gotten to that point where we could benefit from herob bands just cuz like I think of the matchup for for example malga versus Winston like that's going to always be a specific matchup because you got malga the tank Buster with basically two Bastion turrets on his arms versus Winston so like if you're a Winston man you don't want to go against that you can tell your team in the in the pregame yo let's ban malga I don't I don't want that I'm a Winston one trick and I I feel like that adds just a little bit more to the game I I think we're at that point what do you guys think Boger I'll take it to you next I'm okay with hubans as long as we don't let Zoe's cat choose them for us that I'm okay with it cuz cuz uh I don't know I I feel like the the game is going to have way more characters it's going to be way harder to balance everything for example imagine right now if you had hero bands even if it was like one band per team Malo wouldn't be dominating every Lobby because everyone would be per baning MAA and that's what happens in league for example everyone just bans the newest character because it's really op most of the time so nobody plays the character and uh because really you know broken and the and at the same time you can see if the character is broken and adjust him without him ruining the game for everyone else right that's why I feel like I I know for me I would like to test the why not you know next season we change competitive the season after that you know they release a new character and then the season after that they had herob bands and tested out and if it doesn't work remove it because I feel like league and other games you know experiment a lot with things they change up their Maps a lot they add a lot of new stuff and OverWatch we don't really experiment much we just release characters and battle passes and new maps I feel like adding more uh things that really shake up stuff uh would make the seasons more memorable obviously it's more work it's not easy to do that but uh at least once a year right just you know add items that would be funny imagine if they add items to overwat I don't know [ __ ] something random Right add 6v6 again for a season I don't know something silly I don't know I I feel like the game uh is very I don't know I back in the day OverWatch was really silly with a lot of things right and I miss a lot of the silliness with uh before rollock before all all of these things Bastion sitting in Sentry form uh symmetra uh ultimate Shield generator with torant packs and plus 150 HP and so many silly stuff we don't really have silly stuff it's all about like who can deal more damage and it's kind of boring so I do wish they experimented more with herob bonds and other stuff and make Seasons more memorable and um just make it more unique I don't know like add herob bands why not if if it doesn't work you moove it awesome well obviously we you know I agree with you that it was there was that there was that fondness of that era where things were a bit silly a bit goofy unfortunately the more we min max the game the more that becomes the death of silliness right the more we establish a pro scene the more we have people who are like hard grinding or watch night and day and want to figure out within two days what is the best thing to do in any given situation like it will be the death of the silly but to the original Point Sam uh We've also like they one thing they mentioned was that they might have this idea of like coins or some currency that you can use to swap and it's like a limited resource right like you can only swap X number of time this is an idea they're experimenting with internally is that a good idea or like herob bands in total a good idea or how do you feel so I I've been on this podcast particularly where we've talked about hero bands many times Fredo Fredo I know he's licking his shop somewhere right now he just sneezed that just mentioned him in hero bands he definitely just sneezed I've always been very neutral on it I'll say I'm nervous though and here's why I'm nervous after realizing what it feels like to have characters get locked like playing on open q on an Al with friends and stuff like that I'm a like I think a big part of what made OverWatch so fun and made it win game of the year and did all these things it's kind of what Boger said it's like ability to be unique right and we definitely lost that with a with we lost a little bit of that with roll q a lot of it with hero design and things just characters like OG bra double shield etc etc um I'm nervous that it might get lost with these I'm still open to seeing it though and I I think there's a lot to be said about Aaron and Jared and their team that they're willing to look at things fundamentally and mess around with things and try things as long as the response is quick to change them I'm totally okay with it I don't like the idea of limiting swaps and OverWatch any any more than we've already done right with Heroes potentially being locked in general with roll Q first then 5v5 I kind of do miss a lot of that silly old OverWatch where there were a lot of unique things out there and especially with the league being gone I think there is as to boger's point a great opportunity to do a lot more of that silly open crazy stuff like you know you guys you see the videos of the meme Stacks all the time or like the Tim lasses seagull stack all the time like doing crazy stuff for I had a video where we queued into Crow on our team once and with my five stack on east coast and we played five supports one junkrat and we won the game against goats like stuff like that that wacky aspect of OverWatch is something I'm willing to admit I was wrong about I think with with roll Q in general and while I'm I'm definitely open to Hero bands coming in I think it should be a a ban for each team or maybe one character ban and don't limit the swaps past that point CU I like OverWatch feeling free and my hot take is if we're stuck in 5v5 I'd rather play open q that's my hot take that's my book get get do a one week open q season or a onewe 6v6 season in a downtime or something who cares right um I I I'm not I don't know if I'm 100% ready to admit that I think I might have been wrong about roll Cube versus open q but I think particularly at this point in time with no league if you want depth in the game or you want to do something just do something fun with for a weekend or something who cares right something like that um but I I do I don't want to lose that wacky free open OverWatch feeling that I feel like I haven't really been able to get from OverWatch 2 aside from playing maybe some characters like Ekko who are more free to fly around the map because there's one less tank checking her right or something like that I feel like I don't want to lose that feeling anym than has already been taken away for the sake of structure if you will I yeah I mean I I definitely think the open q ID is fun one I think like if anything it's going to show us how dead the DPS role is cuz this is going to be four support characters probably in a tank but uh so it was reminiscent of your junkrat game there Sam I actually like this may surprise people this is a hot take from myself because for the longest time I've been a huge advocate of hero bands like you know me and Fredo from the go were kind of like hero bands hero bands hero bands needed in the game I'm not sure it's needed anymore in the same way that it was four like I I think the reason that herob bands always appealed to me as an idea is because OverWatch was so much about like alt economy and not swapping your hero for so long like I whatever the devs may say for so long OverWatch was about figuring out a comp that you needed to run and running that [ __ ] everywhere and that's where you need herob bands to break up the hegemony right you need a herob band to dislodge a key character in a comp that everyone's running all the time and say take brg out of this comp now we can play five other things and that's what always appealed to me as an idea of here bands like this is will give variance to a game that lacks variance I don't think necessarily Varian is is so much of a problem anymore in Watch 2 if anything it's overv variance and that's where actually I gravitate more towards the idea of limiting the number of swaps like I think we're in a bit of a unique state where MAA is so busted that like everyone's running malga but past season two and three when they had like the hard hog gisa meta and Widow Hanzo we've not seen too many moments where everyone's running the same thing everywhere right like maybe that little moment where junk Queen was busted but even then seeing a lot of variance in like the supports and the DPS so I don't think our problem anymore is that we need to break a certain comp that everyone's running all the time out not a pro level at Pro level it's a it's a different story and you could easily add hero bands at Pro level and it wouldn't wouldn't be a problem but for the ranked experience I think the idea of limiting swaps appeals to me more because it's more frustrating for me to just see people constantly counterpick me whatever I'm doing right like let's say I start Winston they go basion I switch to you know whatever it is I switch to hog they're going to go try and Stun Me and and lock me out I'm going to go Doom they're going to go Sombra orisa so like I I dislike the idea of like constantly just targeting a player and and just trying to make their experience miserable so if you put a resource on the swaps you're now asking someone to think about their swaps more rather than just brainlessly swapping all the time to counter the thing that's coming it's like now we got to way up is it worth swapping to to Canada the tank every single time or is there like a better thing to attack that will make us win the game more so I actually I'm not I'm I don't think I'll ever be against the idea of herob band I do still think it adds something to the game but my own feeling is like I'm no longer such like a bring hero we need herob band sa over because I think the problems have shifted and I'd rather first see them just limit the number of swaps Sam you've got your hands up and then I want to hear yle's response because he's the one who asked agree the problem has shifted but I now when I think about it I really don't like the idea of limiting swaps because in a way you're also lowering the skill cealing of the game for certain players where like one of my better assets as a player is that I can pick I can pick literally any DPS and depending on what's best in the situation and get an advantage because I've spent years playing the game and learning these characters right if you limit the swaps I think you're I think you're better off trying to limit the niche situations that make people permanently swap oh if they pick this no matter what happens I pick this because it's an override right that's caused by overrides more the overrides that we talked about earlier where it's not about the Mind Games and all that stuff I think you need to reduce those interactions of the game but I don't think that for example a player like me I don't think it's fair to a player like me for example who main skill set is their flexibility to say oh well you can only switch this SM in one game because uh somebody this guy is constantly going Bastion against the guy that really wants to play Winston right I I don't like the idea a of limiting players skill ceilings because of that and that would absolutely be a big limit to the players who are much more flexible who like look I'm not pressing Tab and switching every life based on what uh blah blah blah on the other teams doing like if there there could be a lot of different reasons why I want to like maybe one time one of their supports does Moira but I started on Genji because they were on Bap Zen Ash Hanzo and Genji is's not a bad match up there so then I swap off Genji and I'm you know like there have been plenty of games where I've swapped four or five times and it's not because one I'm countering one player it's just because well look I don't think my 's valuable here and in this situation this will be better I I I don't think I don't like that I'm gonna I'm going no that's totally fair no that's totally fair I'll say a couple things to this and I want to hear again I want especially 's opinion of Boer to if he's got anything to add the one there's a couple points i' i' I'd rebut with which is that a firstly you it's it's a finite resource that everyone's dealing with right so I appreciate that like you won't need to swap so much if everyone else is not swapping so much too right so like if there are only limited two or three swaps how many times do you need to swap to adapt to that b you also you're still going to be rewarded as a flexible player because you still have a wide wider range to pull from than everyone else who's limited to a fewer things so while yes you can't swap four or five times you can still swap three key times let's say to any of the heroes as opposed to like again the band situation you can still swap to any of the heroes to fit the situation and again knowing that they only have a limited number of times they can change their comp it affects what you want to do too and then three I think the the the final thing then you can reut is that they've already acknowledged they're you know you said that that we're going to have to shut down those KNE situations of like where you don't you need to swap because they're running bash into your Winston well they've already kind of accepted that's going to be a thing like obviously we don't want that extreme a level of basion you just don't play Winston in basion this is useless you're useless now but that is going to be a thing we they now acknowledge this they're like we know there's going to be some hard counters in the game and and I think it's again it's one of those situations again where it's more realistic to expect them to to [ __ ] up frequently and have a few matchups like these in the game where like this character you just you're not going to you you need to swap off of this character than it is to expect and then have a limited number of times people can swap then to expect them to constantly have that balance right of there's never these situations where you need to swap off your character and let's let let's let people Swap all the time is that Mak sense yeah kind of but I think what that would make H I think that does the opposite of the goal of what the game wants to achieve and that I actually think it would be a similar situation and and these guys might remember this but you know when you were defending first on 2cp what you mainly looked to pick in in scrims was you wanted Heroes that could get that could cover like any comp they ran right so like for example a lot of the time where people would there there are a lot of times where people come up on bat brg instead of bapen on like for example 2cp First Defense just in case they went dive into the bzen and so you had have the break for coverage if you limit the amount of swaps people can have I don't think that actually makes the game about how you play and it's I think it actually doubles down on how important what you pick is and I'm nervous that that would lock people in and like ultimately like I'm still getting punished because it's not about how flexible I am it's the order of operations as to okay well we'll start B Zen he's going to pick Genji because Genji's a good pick into that then I'm going to swap Moira and then you end up getting stuck in this rock paper sciss which I I feel like we wanted to get away from right it's just there's a limit on how many times it happens and it hasn't actually changed why it's happening which what is what frustrates people it just puts a limit on how often it can happen so there's a direct winner or loser regardless of how wide your hero pool is that would be my rebuttal to that but again we'd have to wait and see I'm not sure how it would actually play out but that'd be my guess that's just a guess though no those those are fair concerns and I think I think it it might even be interesting to see how it's like a it's a meta game mind game of its own which is like can ice them to swap into a that they actually don't want to be into like can I cuz I know they have to swap a number of times and I'm again if you're like a flexible player you're like I know what I'm doing I want to kind of make them go into the thing I again I think this is all Theory crafting it's hard to say because it's so dependent on like the power state of certain Heroes versus other Heroes like you have to this this premise is that like it is such a strong need anyways like it may not be such a strong need that you have to swap it's more just I think for me where the appeal of the idea lies is the is in the tank role of the constant swapping needs to stop and can you can you make what was that sorry it can't stop not in this format it's always gonna happen maybe try but maybe it's always gonna happen all right I'll take it to Y now Yi you asked the question what are your thoughts and were you satisfied with the discussion yeah it was a good talk I I'm not convinced or sold on the the uh the whole hero swap economy thing I feel like that's uh not a very fun mini game at least for me um but I still think like it would change up a lot of the games and like how maps are played like a prime example I always think of is no matter what role I'm playing I hate playing against Widowmaker because I don't play Widowmaker I'm not good at that hero so if I can ban Widowmaker on Havana all of a sudden that map's played a lot differently than it would be if there was a Widowmaker um just another example like we can say like uh if I'm playing malga and I just don't want to play against the band The Anna and then they have to be more creative about how they're going to counter me versus just picking Anna or it can go the other way if you're tired of seeing Malo in all your games you ban Malo and it's like you get to to curate the experience a little bit more is what I see as the appeal that's all no again you're never gonna find me arguing against the idea of herob band so that's not that's yeah I'm more than happy and agreed with those ideas but that's just my current feeling of like maybe maybe this would be all right Boger how do you feel about all of this I feel like it's nice to believe that if we remove hero swaps the game will be better but the more time we've spent sitting there limiting our choices as players the worse the game kind of has become in the sense that um I don't if like OverWatch was made with the idea of having hero swaps and I feel like it'll be really irritating if you remove hero swaps it's really irritating as a tank player to get counter swapped all the time but like I don't think the solution is to remove hero swaps cuz like we're removing another thing that made OverWatch so awesome in the first place like the fact that you can hero swap is really unique so I think removing it and the heroes I think removing is a good idea and it's nice to think it might be a good idea but just imagine you're playing the game and you get locked into a game and you play Winston and the enemy team locked in malga and that is not going to be fun it's just not going to be fun it's going to be miserable it's going to be so miserable and it might happen many times in a row where you just pick the wrong character and just lose right and I don't like that and uh I think there's more of a core issue where it needs to be solved with like hero swaps uh getting counter swapped all the time I don't like the counter swap economy thing cuz imagine uh a lot of situations in high elu you go lucier to speed out spawn that's minus one hero swap uh you might go symmetra right to TP people minus one hero spawn you might you might uh you might swap to doomfest or ball to contest last second minus one swap right and uh it I it sounds good on paper but I don't think it SS anything cuz if you just like if every player has threee swaps if you start on Winston and they go on zarya and then they swap from zarya to something else and something else at the end of the day you're just again like going to keep counter swapping until you're locked from swapping and you might [ __ ] yourself over and just have the most miserable game ever I don't think we should make the game more miserable than this like it's nice to you imagine that it's going to make the game more playable I think it's going to happen cuz a lot of things need to go perfectly and I think like herob bands might be cool I think hero swaps are a very important mechanic that if we remove a lot of people are just going to quit the game like straight up I think like I think it's a very loud minority that think that we should remove hero swaps and I think they're wrong and uh I think we should keep hero swaps and just fix the issues where they are instead of trying to think about something else yeah Fair points fellas Fair points you you've kind of convinced me to think this is maybe not so good an idea I kind of I have I confess I haven't given it too much thought but hearing your arguments I definitely think like the more I'm like H yeah maybe it wouldn't solve the problems we think it would it's fair enough uh any any thoughts yle again I'm going to get yle because it was his question and his kind of subject so tell me what you uh what you think of it all yeah no I think most of it's been said um full out no hero swaps that's not good but I think like one or two hero bands wouldn't be that bad that's all all right Fair productive discussion I think it was an interesting one um all right let's move on to then Winter Wonderland it'll be like our last rough big topic is just you know this is we haven't really even talked about the the sort of the what the season is supposed to be it's supposed to be this winter themed season it's supposed to be all fun and cheery we've seen a few mini fraas shall we say a few mini skirmishes of like Jingle Bell Mercy not releasing on time and and some some talk about like this uh this mini battle pass uh and kind of the fomo of not being able to get everything but how do you guys feel about the winter wonderland like I think I've heard a lot of people say like it's underwhelming Sam you go ahead first like is it is it is it hitting the Mark I got one thing that I want to say first and I'll let these gentlemen get into their opinions after can we just talk about how funny it is from an outsider looking in okay this is this is where the saying O to be a fly on the wall comes from gentlemen the fact that the poor Mercy players have had their skin delayed twice and then just watching the Uproar is so I just went and grabbed my popcorn all this stuff sk's having like tweet out I'm so like she jinxed it right you know that's so funny to me I just thought it was so funny but the good news is listen they got their skins a week early did you guys know the Tale on on Jingle Bell Mercy Jingle Bell Mercy has a little deer tail and it and it bobbles I learned that sh far Mercy confirmed I'm about to spend $30 for a skin damn that's a good wait Boer real quick before we get into this did you see the account the mercy account that was called samito X about x b so many people so many people were mad about the way I played Mercy it was really funny same here oh my goded a v reviewed VA review and there was like this one com like I used to like Bor but he changed he's I got him in my game and he bullied me off it was terrible experience and everyone's like I'm so sorry to hear that I like what what is this first story did you did you get yelled at for heal botting no cuz I didn't heal I got yelled out for he pist all the time I just pist I had like 2K average damage for 10 you know what's so funny guys I uh I made it a point to healbot as much I had 10K per 10 healing and I all the people I know that play mercy were so mad at me and I they're like you're taking Nano away from your H I was like why would I want the game in anyone's else's hands but mine that's the difference between I did the same thing I was so tired like I'm sorry to Mercy man you're very cute and awesome but like the amount of Mercy players that were in my stream explain to me how I'm supposed to play the game when they've been stuck in plat for six years it is so like I understand it's skti sitting there backseating but look who who is this like uh little kid in four right like I you've been you've been stuck on Mercy in plat or diamond for years maybe maybe pising with Mercy is the play right maybe maybe maybe should change up your play style I am I am ranked 80 on Mercy right now only basically pistol B and I don't know maybe it's time to change up how Mercy's play I'm sorry about the RvB you know earlier sorry to stay out we'll get back on remember earlier how I how B talked about how he's gone over to support you want to know how you know that's true that was some of the best gaslighting I've ever seen that was great that was great Boer good job man you're you're official you support supp you know Rack Attack somewhere grinning right now after he's done a great job with those too but yeah back to the topic as be I just wanted to say how funny it was that that the mercy the mercy tragedy happened yet again but they got their skin so there we go there we go as for winter wonderland I honestly don't know anything about it I'm just GNA D I have no idea what's happening there I have no check to though I you is aome only thing I checked is I know that like to get a Ry skin you couldn't get enough tickets from like doing it free that was something I think I noticed maybe I I saw the numbers wrong can but you just like I think you can do it if you're on the premium pass but I think you can only get like one with the premium and like I think you can get like three with the premium premium is $ five dollar so I think with $ five dollar you can get like three or four some like legendary skins or whatever which is like good Val if you grind all the tickets which is like good value I I think it in on pars good value it's just it's just the system doesn't quite hit the way I think they wanted it to hit and again Jared acknowledged this to me himself where he's like we thought we were making it Fun by giving you guys like a choice because he's basically said that like in the past they've done these mini events where you know the the old format used to have where it's like win nine games and like every three games you'd get like a spray or like a little mini thing and then at Ninth win you'd get a a skin and they're like we wanted to mix that up and like maybe give people a choice when they get to that ninth win right it's like okay well I won nine games rather than just being locked into getting this one skin we can pick which one we want so that's where the like ticket idea came from I think the problem is that people ended up like people at the moment feel a bit just fomo where they're like I'm I you're you're letting me buy one of four skins but I want all the now you've presented four to me I kind of want them all right and you're showing me that like I can only get one of them when I play that that's a bit lame so unfortunately I think the psychology of it has hit a bit off the mark of what they wanted it but so have you not kind of paid any attention to any any of the other aspects youle no no other is there anything else is it is it uh Yeti Hunter and the May snowball Hunter yeah it I don't know like I was excited they released the Halloween event which was really cool and then like they just didn't what was the Christmas event I don't know I feel like everything roles our own skins now and it's a lot less like fun new game modes and funny little things to do uh maybe I'm missing out on them I don't know maybe it's you know I'm I'm just bored with all of this but like back in the day when they released when there were new events it was really exciting to play them it was really fun and the Halloween event was really fun I think that was really cool but uh this one is just about skins and you can't even unlock all the Skins I was like all right I guess whatever I'm just going to queue up MAA and ruin cloud day or something I don't know I just like well unfortun I do think I I hope he sees this I hope he sees this probably he's too busy grinding his Winston right now but maybe someone will tell him that Boger was shitalking him on the podcast um that's usually how these things go usually someone comes in the chat and be like did you know that Boger was [ __ ] talking you and then he like what um they'll be like what what are you talking about uh I do think that is the world we live in at the moment of like with the with the live service and and the free to play it is a lot about the skins and there isn't a lot about the the substance of the events per se like I also like I've literally spent zero time playing any of the other modes cuz I mean we've all played them before if you if you've been playing OverWatch since OverWatch one you've played all the snowball various versions to death there's nothing maybe for the new players I'd love to hear you guys how you're finding it like are you enjoying these modes playing them for the first time probably like we did Once Upon a Time but I do think for the OG players is like there's not been anything particularly great uh I guess the hero masteries are coming out which could be interesting for the people who are interested in those but uh yeah Sam how do you feel like do you feel like they need to be putting out some cool new events or is it fine events in so so from a mplex perspective believe it or not like our events were what made like they didn't put us on the map but like they were a big deal like people love Halloween they love Christmas so I you know if this one didn't hit the way they wanted it to as long as they're they understand and they're like trying to do new stuff like this new Halloween and stuff doesn't need have to be anything crazy just something fun to get in the spirit it's it's the it's the goal is to create the the the soul if you will of the holiday spirit which is what makes it fun otherwise it' just be another time of year right it's it's really how people can act with each other that brings life to all these fun things so you know um I think in general like the holiday events are are just super important across any game and I I think it would be fun to to go in and hop in and check them out I just haven't been incentivized to for some reason I can't really tell you why it's not cuz um May maybe it was the PVE stuff waiting this year for that PVE I don't know what it is but you know I I wish I could give a good answer I just have not been in tune to really doing it I guess I don't know there hasn't been a reason for me to yes war zone and stuff for example sorry to cut you off but like one thing war zone did is like they put like a literal Grinch into the game right into like the main game and you had to stay listen it was it was so annoying on Caldera um to be running away from like the Grinch that that like he could kill you and like take your cash or it was just you know a lot going on um I wonder if OverWatch could ever do something like that fortnite and War just keep adding really silly stuff I wish we had silly stuff I don't know I we have some silly stuff but like it's so much like obviously it's not it's like compar comparing apples and oranges but um I don't know I I feel like back in the day watch was sillier and I feel like a lot of games right now really put emphas like a lot of focus on the events especially fortnite I know it's not comparable but like like the Grinch that would be awesome that would be fun having some fun stuff other one punch man event was awesome I want more events like that collaborations that'll be fun I don't know that's my opinion I want things to be a little bit sillier I feel like we're so focused on the the grind and everything to be balanced just add Lucio killing stuff with his ultimate why not [ __ ] it's funny I don't know they did it with D.A D.A GAC is annoying but it's [ __ ] funny it's so funny when it happens it's like hilarious is right just do the same thing with other characters it would be funny right uh Reinhardt one shouting with other that's also always funny I think it's always I wish we had more funny stuff I do solo slam people a lot and try to it's funny it's so funny it is funny it's funny just add more especially a mercy player like you know that they're sitting there SC like God he's G boom yeah so funny fed yeah because a lot of things are just like just DPS them and kill them I just I want to kill stuff with Lucio beat that would be funny just drop from the top get a triple what there was a time in the game where they were really doing a lot of changes like that wasn't there it was experimental stuff wasn't there something did they add that to an experimental yeah it wasat it was during Creator patches I remember they had like the Hanzo bound EO who did that whatx because was he the one that suggested to I forget Lucio players maybe it was Frogger you know Frogger would be riding on the top of I wall like beating on like the joke or something it was in one of those Creator patches insta kill with the beat it was really funny cuz we also had the tournament with it it was really funny it was funny I want more funny stuff like that I know it's hilarious bring back at this point with especially with the league gone now like I I think that I think they should especially given how well fortnite's done with stuff like that screw it and do it guys go silly bro do it that's an old saying we used to have here in Kentucky for on the dive team just to get over our fear you never know what's coming next you just s go out there top of the board screw and do it and then you'd probably smack but you know screw it and do it that was the saying you know get after it make things silly yeah and again it is one of these things where like our competitive nature fights against the desire for more for more silly things but these are I think the most memorable moment sometimes they miss and we got to I guess in our you know to to point the finger at us a little bit we got to be a bit Kinder when they if they were to try silly things and not overreact because we sometimes do like you know they tried necrotic Orbin we kind of lost our [ __ ] for for a bit when they had that was stupid that was that wasup that's not silly at all that was just well that's the fine line is that's what I mean though the line between what is just stupid and what is actually stupid enough to be fun is a thin one until you sp that's that's audience just have like a a judge like four judges that can judge if a change is silly or not like Frogger me you know you know why not samito and then one more silly guy that yeah four four silly guys and then you go through them it's like yes that is confirmed silly just add it to the game you know who would be absolutely great for that what I think I think You' have to be on it Boger cuz you're you're a silly guy you're a silly guy I I I think Flats would be a great grandpa on it eong imagine eong on that right like you know yeah that's silly you know and he'd find like he'd be like the positive spin on it you know and he just I I feel like eong would be great for that too I feel like Flats eong Boger wow it's all tank players you know what you guys well yeah but we got to give some love to the tank players cuz you guys have you guys have been miserable what if you get to choose the silly stuff Boer true true true that'll be funny there you go t players they do have the best sense of humor in OverWatch am I wrong that's true I agree not not at all a bias discussion we're having here not at all bias I'm not a tank player I'm giving it to him right I'm giving it to him okay well I mean I mean to the to back I I agree I think more silly fun things are are always welcome and and and these kind I think the more creative left field approaches are what we're kind of getting at here it's like you know the Lucio beat drop they kind of reward players in a way that's not necessarily broken but it kind of is it's it incentivizes a bit more doing something that could be a bit stupid and might risk their own life but hey when it pays off it pays off good and I think that's the kind of the theme of A lot of these changes um but going back to the winter wonderland correct me if I'm wrong I don't think we have a new winter map skin either right there's not like there's not a map that's now all a lot of M I think a lot of maps have added like Christmas decorations instead of having like one skin I feel like I feel like I've been seeing a lot of Christmas decorations in love of maps I know if it's every map but I've seen it in most Maps like Christmas trees Christmas lights and stuff so I don't know I'm sure somebody knows but I've seen Christmas decorations I don't think one map is like christmy right you should have made a festive Toronto like night time with snow and just trees that would have been so good yeah there is there I think he has a scarf now right I think the statue on the outside remember he has a scarf now like and like maybe some little lighting around him like he has like a little but you're right like we didn't get I guess we didn't get like that dedicated because that used to be another part I'm trying to think about like you know why these events perhaps hit differently before because we used to have this like well some map is going to get a big winter Rec skin right like when we got like uh King's Row we got blizzard world where it's like oh it's all wintry and it looks really great so yeah I'm just trying I'm trying to think out loud of like what it is that's maybe not hitting quite the same it could just be were nostalg ising and it it never was that good but it I I agree with you guys sentiment that like nothing has really felt super festive about this particular Winter Wonderland even more so than like you know I think the October one was still good like the Halloween one still felt there was like a theme of the Halloween and the Diablo event like you know that that that works like Diablo is a good collaboration to bring in a to a scary theme because you know it's like a it's a horrory kind of game it's a dark themed game so I mean is anything else you guys want to add before this leads us to like concluding thoughts and like what we want to see them do in the future but anything you want to add on this relative topic you think there's going to be something on Christmas day like I remember they used to give us loot boxes back in the day you think we get something this year no no they gave us they gave us they gave us one free no they gave us one free like uh charm charm yeah like a weapon charm epic I love it yeah I I'm not going to get get go too deep in that I did I did laugh about that when I saw it on my like when I logged in and saw it on stream I was like this is kind of silly but you know what it's fine I'm not going to go too hard on them for that one instead I guess I'll just ask you guys you know like obviously season 8 has felt as as Boger I think point out at the start of the stream like a bit of a placeholder season like a kind of we're waiting for season 9 because we want to see the comp changes and that's what everyone's kind of excited for but is there anything that we can do in season 8 that that could make it a bit more fun and ex fting is it just like well we maybe we change MAA a little bit or is there maybe some cool collaboration that could turn this around for us like what do you guys think you want to see from the rest of the season I'll go to Boger first Boger what do you want to see from the rest of the season buy the battle pass install MAA before they Nerf him climb as much as you can that is the that is the most fun thing you can do and uh for the rest of the season what I want I want MAA neres probably and I want support neres I'm looking at your Baptist and kir and and uh maybe lari I feel like these characters need a little bit of nerves but uh outside of that I don't know I think uh everyone's just waiting for the new competitive season and I don't know what else they could realistically add to this season because uh Christmas is coming up and new years's and stuff and yeah I don't know support Nerfs MGA Nerf maybe some other Buffs maybe buff Winston I'm joking don't buff don't touch him but yeah we already got a buff actually you already got a buff it didn't really change much cuz morgage kills him who cares before I go to Sam on this one this is a good chance to plug that I I I've decided we're going to do another rank Gauntlet before the end of the season because I thought you know this is going to be like a really it's going to be quite a boring season there's not a lot going on once season 9 comes in everyone's going to hard grind comp so like let's do let's do another event I haven't organized one of these big streamer events for a while so I expect all you guys to participate in some form I'll DM you and we're going to make so if you guys are listening right now whether not right now on Twitch or you're listening on the YouTube or the podcast Services later in the future you can sign up for the rang go and play with and against these guys come on down we're going to do it in the latter half of January so it's going to be on three Sundays from the 21st 28th and then the 4th of February so I'm going to this time tell me what you guys think I'm going to make I've made a slight change to the format we're going to do captains so we're going to be like maybe four to six captains and they're going to assemble teams of three and over those three weekends are each each of their members are going to do a run and they're going to try and total their points and we're going to have one team come out on top Victorious uh so I I need to assemble some captains and then I need some team members so I'll I'll hit you guys up about that but try to mix it up trying to make it a little bit fun we'll see what happens and we'll we'll find some good calls to to donate the money to as well maybe we'll give again to the team with whatever their charity of choices uh last time if you remember those who watched Boger donated the money to's family for uh the tragedy that we're going so I won't go too much into it just because it was a obviously a very traumatic time but it was nice gesture that boogo did there so um samito talk to me about what you want to do for the rest of the season what would you like to see uh you know I think this is kind of it uh I not every season's a home run sometimes you know Money Ball base hit right um I guess this went to base hit and again like I do think m is op I I just think their order of operations is wrong for it to be pay to win in my opinion I I I am totally fine with the hero coming out being broken in quick play for two weeks that's fine let people have their fun let people do what they want but when it comes into comp it can't override everything to the degree that it is now um but yeah I mean look go buy the battle pass and uh if you want to have fun and play MGA and just overwhelm everything and he's definitely got he's really weird for those of you who want to like learn him at home it's you know the first learning curve will jump your value up enormously and then after that it's very very minor High skill ceiling changes or it's like oh I'm going to play exactly 5 meters away to kind of bait the cage fight duel and like the there is a bit of the that mind game that that Boger mentioned earlier especially when they both have ults because you don't want to get caught in it right it's like it's almost like the inverse of shatter because there's no Shield but he's putting a shield down on you instead of like oh he's dropping his shield to shatter so that was a cool little dynamic they had that is the one part of the malamir that I think is actually like brain power um other than that I hope everybody enjoys the holidays and uh get your mercy skins get your Christmas skins I guess and people really are into that I think that's the direction OverWatch is going and uh yeah best of luck nice I like it the little MAA tips there as well oh by the way people are asking you can sign up via the Discord so if you head to my Discord server there's a whole Gauntlet section so sign if you want to sign up for the rang Gauntlet head over there it's a very easy process yle take us out what is your concluding thoughts what are you kind of looking forward to uh in terms of what could come for the rest of the season um there's probably not anything gon to happen the rest of the season but uh big midseason balance changes that'd be cool you know always Shake It Up otherwise yeah I'm not really expecting much move on to next season you know yeah man that's that's depressing that is a depressing I'm having fun I mean yeah I'm having a bit of fun you're enjoying faster yeah yeah if only my Q times were a little bit faster but otherwise having time it's just so annoying like once I start getting to top 20 top 10 and Q times like 20 minutes like yeah dude I play like I'm trying to get my 50 wins I haven't got my 50 wins this season because I started playing when MAA came out yeah I still haven't gotten it it's terrible yeah that that's just like I was saying to chat earli like the one benefit of playing tank is the fast Q time so like now that's gone so I guess I guess eventually people will get tired of playing MAA maybe especially if he gets nerfed maybe not May if he doesn't get Nerf people will just keep grinding the MAA cuz like potentially as you guys are all spreading the propaganda it's potenti free Sr but we'll see what happens uh I I think I think they the thing they do with these Seasons to be fair they always have like some surprise somewhere in there so I wouldn't be surprised if there's a collab of some sort coming we know hero Master is coming they'll have a balance patch maybe they'll have some more mini event lined up you know like uh some lover watchy thing or you know some another like you know like a Diablo type game so I I think they might keep something interesting in the sleeves so I hope that we'll get to see that I agree with you guys you know MGA Nerfs would be good um but yeah there's not necessarily anything that we can directly point out we know the comp rework is coming so I guess we're all just waiting and uh hopefully they can still keep this season entertaining and hope of nothing else they've kind of learned a few things from the various debacles right don't don't put Mercy skins after the [ __ ] holiday 01 and point two uh don't do the ticket systems and give people fomo find a better way to do it so I think they've already learned a few things there and maybe the little bit lessons on hero balance releases as well so that's it from my end is there anything else you guys want to say before I let you get going no happy Holidays happy holidays yeah ex actually everyone listening I hope you guys have a have a good time man hope you guys all have a a good holiday season for me and the group up Podcast here we I think we got one more episode for the end of the year and I'm going to try and do a summary episode of like 2023 so we'll we'll see you one more time but if I don't happy holidays and to you guys if I don't see you happy holidays fellas enjoy your time that's true you were is literally literally flying Tov are you're going again yeah I'm going again go again awesome I'm we go again all right happy holiday for the rest of you guys I hope to see you soon and have a great rest of your Year and thank you so much for joining me please show these guys some love from us now peace out bye

Channel: Group Up! Podcast

Views: 60,384

Keywords: overwatch, overwatch 2, group up, group up podcast, overwatch podcast, svb, the great debate

Id: 7uOIAZy_JGE

Length: 148min 43sec (8923 seconds)

Published: Sat Dec 23 2023