[Music] well good afternoon everybody the future of affordable housing the challenge of affordable housing affordability and the ability to get on the ladder and to move up the ladder is a huge challenge as we all know it's a challenge in many of the major cities and the leaders and the mayors that I meet a clearly troubled by this this issue what we've done today is to put together a distinguished panel I'm going to hear about how they're dealing with a challenge in New York auditing the challenge in Australia particular in Sydney and here in Singapore and if I may introduce my panelists first of all Carl Weiss red Karl if you'd like to join us he's the former director of the New York City Department of City Planning and more particularly he was the chairman of the New York City Planning Commission very much wearing a housing hat then word I did have with us dr. new dr. Lu Teicher he's the founding chairman of the Center for liveable cities which you've heard about it of course today and in particular he's a Uli ohst and ladies not not last but Paige Paige Walker she's the general manager residential development at mervich in Western Australia so welcome panel thanks for joining us just in order to give some context to the discussion I just thought just time a yes there we are just just quickly how we're trying to deal with things in Hong Kong because Hong Kong is our somewhat unique City but it is the most expensive residential market in the world so we are particularly challenged if you like by the issue affordability what we do in Hong Kong very simply to divide those in the queue if you like into those who are in crisis and those who are in pain those in crisis essentially can't help themselves those in pain can help themselves if a by the government sorry just the about one if I can yeah so for those in crisis very quickly we have 800,000 public rental units in Hong Kong that's one third of the population live in public rental housing largely this is a legacy of the past the refugees who came across the border boundary into Hong Kong these are highly subsidized these are these people about 14 15 % of market but we have huge challenges around mobility that also policy comfortables you like university to meet demand aging portfolio imagine having to replace 800,000 units and a four year waiting list and this is just a quick picture of some of the stock that we're building at the moment then for those in pain we provide units for purchase and these are provided on a discounted subsidized basis subsidized right between 30 to 50 percent of the market value but so subject to fairly strict restrictions on resale netting but again we can't keep up with the demand so we're not a very good case study a good example if you like this is an example of subsidized sale product what quickly are we doing and we're going to hear from the panelists are what they're doing land supply obviously as we've heard here in Singapore as well is a challenge and we have to produce more land and more supply bringing the developers into the party making them provide up to 30% of affordable units within their schemes this is with what New York and what's London and others relaxed ehrs restriction so those people have bought on the subsidized basis can sell on more easily and then looking at conversion of industrial buildings into starter homes we have a new chief executive and she is very keen on this particular model let's just give you some context for the discussion we're about to have let's start if we can with Carl will I come talk to us about New York thank you very much thank you very much Nick I did note that many people didn't think a hundred percent of the top hundred cities had an affordable housing crisis I would certainly say that a hundred percent of successful cities have an affordable housing crisis and I think we're switching now from an emphasis this morning on technology basically to a discussion of equity and what it means to be a city and let me just start by talking about the challenge in New York and what we're doing about it and how successful or not successful we've been so first of all our population is that now at an all-time high it's grown almost five percent in the last five years we are generally not building enough market rate housing or affordable housing or even market rate housing fast enough to meet our demand you can see the gap between the affordable units that are available to extremely low income New Yorkers and the number of households that are either very low income or extremely low income New Yorkers extremely knowing low income New Yorkers just to define it are a family of four making less than twenty five thousand US dollars a year and to compound this problem rents are rising in New York much faster than income is rising New York is a renter city two thirds of New York City households renters and a majority of all the renters in New York City are now rent burdened which means that they're paying more than 30% of their total household income on shelter and a substantial minority of New York City renters are extremely rent burdened which means they're spending more than 50% of their household income on shelter now to compound the problem in New York we also have 60,000 New Yorkers every night that is sleeping in homeless shelters 25,000 of them are children it's really unacceptable in a civilized society and I will say in some mitigation for New York that New York is probably the only city it is the only city in the United States that guarantees shelter every night to anyone even if they've just arrived in the city that day so there is a guaranteed right to shelter in New York in addition to this 60,000 there are thousands an untold number of thousands who are living in overcrowded housing conditions who also are in need of affordable housing so what is New York doing about it and so when mayor de Blasio ran for office housing was an issue but it was not the number-one issue it became the number-one issue because after he was elected there was a survey of New Yorkers not a random survey but an actual survey of all New Yorkers in every single neighborhood some 70,000 people responded and surprisingly affordable housing was the number-one need more important than crime more important than education more important than anything affordable housing in every single community in the city in rich neighborhoods poor neighborhoods and middle-class neighborhoods and so quickly affordable housing became the city's number one priority in 2014 and so the mayor established a goal of providing 200,000 units of affordable housing 120,000 preserved units 80,000 newly affordable units and 160,000 market rate units over ten years from 2014 to 2024 and to just cut to the punch line for the moment we are ahead of schedule in New York after two years we have produced some 50,000 units of affordable housing which is far more than it then the city has produced at least since the Depression era we've accomplished this by a number of using a number of tools first of all mandatory inclusionary zoning which Nick referred to a bit earlier any time now in New York City the city changes its zoning to create more residential capacity either by increasing density increasing FA R or alternatively changing use restrictions from manufacturing space to permit residential use the developer there anyone developing must provide a certain percentage of affordable housing 25% affordable to meet lower income needs 60% of of the area median income which is about forty five thousand dollars a year or thirty percent affordable at 80 percent of slightly higher affordability standards second we have changed our zoning requirements dramatically to make it less expensive to build affordable housing indeed to build all housing by loosening the requirements the building envelope when affordable housing is produced and by eliminating parking requirements for affordable housing in the development parking used to be still is in many respects a third rail of community outrage to reduce parking requirements was a tough sell but for affordable housing it's been done which has caused the cost of affordable housing to be reduced third the city has allocated over ten years eight point two billion dollars in subsidies for portable housing and that is key that's only to build affordable housing that's for capital only just to give you a sense of proportion that's ten percent of the city's entire capital over ten years that includes roads and sewers and pollution plants and parks and everything 10% is now allocated for affordable housing but the city does not allocate funds for operating and op X is a serious problem because even with capital costs being provided even with affordable housing costs at zero for the ultimate occupant unless that occupant earns about 40% of area median income about $30,000 a year for a family of four that unit is not sustainable so we still have a hard time reaching the lowest income populations fifth fourth I should say we've adopted a very ambitious zoning plan to up some neighborhoods we are built city we don't have green fields we don't have areas in which we can expand so we can only build more housing or allow more housing by creating greater density and needless to say that is a big challenge in a built-up community so we have approached it through comprehensive planning we've targeted 15 neighborhoods in the city to have so far been adopted several more will be adopted by the end of this year it has included in order to accomplish that a significant investment beyond the eight point two billion in housing subsidies for public investments in needed area wide improvements such as schools parks and streetscape and that is an additional billion dollars that has been allocated just in those neighborhoods for in order to accommodate a growing and denser population in general this has been a very successful venture I will say that this has been targeted exclusively to renting households and one problem and one challenge New York City really has is how do we reach and how do we engage with home ownership which we have not figured out a way to do yet for affordable housing and needless to say even though this has been an extraordinarily ambitious program it still does not meet the demand so I will stop there Thank You Gaul thank you very much Paige would you like to go next thank you that's fair about a straighter and Sydney particularly thank you good afternoon and thanks for the introduction Nicholas I'm very pleased to be here and to be speaking with you about affordable housing and emerging solutions to the issue with specific reference to Australia while there is a lot of commentary expertise and interest in affordable housing what is in short supply apart from the new affordable homes that we need is a silver bullet solution in Australia where unprecedent population growth and housing demand is urging rising house prices many people on lower incomes are struggling to find affordable housing before I start talking about the solutions we need to define the problem we are tackling the West Australian Department of Housing defines affordable housing as housing which is appropriate for the needs of a range of a very low to moderate income households and price so that these households are also able to meet other basic living costs as a rule of thumb housing is usually considered affordable if it costs less than 30 percent of the gross Australian household income so when mortgage costs or rent consumed too much of the households income or when price growth outstrips wage growth making entry into the market extremely challenging then we have a problem with affordability and if this continues we'll end up with cities that don't have a diverse mix of people at all points of the income spectrum which we need to make sure we have done a dynamic vibrant liveable productive and sustainable communities so what can be done to address this issue let's start with a single most powerful lever we have supply Sydney is now the second most expensive housing market in the world the medium house price is now 1.1 2 million Australian dollars and the median mortgage is 12 times the medium gross household income the number of households formed each year is expected to grow to 172 thousand homes from 2016 to 2017 however only an annual average of 150 3000 homes per annum were completed nationally over the past decade dwelling completions at an all-time 40-year high but remain well short of the 36,000 new homes needed each year to achieve the greater Sydney Commission target of seven hundred and twenty five thousand new homes by 2036 the fundamental driver of increasing house prices particularly in Sydney is the under supply of housing and not keeping pace with population growth and the tax burden imposed on new supply further Sydney has one of the slowest and most complex planning systems in the country and one estimates that approvals take three times as long in Sydney as they do in Brisbane some measures that could bring supply of homeowner owner occupier and rental stock to the market faster in Australia and more cheaply of planning reforms and looking at radical ways to tackle taxes and levies faster release of land faster approval of rezoning and incentives to developers to fast-track supply of affordable housing other ways are applying state learnings nationally and government support for insurance and financing there are several Australian states based funding and Finance Initiative that have been introduced to help make purchasing a home more affordable and should be considered nationally such as reducing the cost of purchasing a home through the abolishment of stamp duty taxes for first home buyers on homes up to 600,000 Australian dollars this was successfully introduced in Victoria and just give you a bit of context up to 50 percent of the cost to the customer of a simple block of land can be attributed to taxes charges and regulatory costs 50 percent and stamp duty is a part of this stamp duty is a substantial hurdle to home buyers and dampens transaction activity also is locking people into housing choices another government initiative is Kista in Western Australia the government has introduced their key Start initiative that assists people into affordable housing by providing loan products that help eligible people who cannot access traditional finance to buy their own homes they do this through low deposit loads and shared equity schemes the government also opposed a national rental affordability scheme which is this lower income families particular key workers in areas too close to their employment the private sector can also innovate and provide unique solutions to affordable housing when the conditions right there are two key obstacles faced by first homebuyers in Sydney and they are one the requirement for a high deposit and two competition from other buyers Merve acts successfully introduced the right side initiative through which we recently reserve 60 apartments priced below 750,000 Australian dollars for first-time buyers these homebuyers could also exchange on a 5% deposit and in Australia is typically a 10% deposit and they could enter into an agreement to pay the remaining 5% in two annual installments the right start addressed both of the obstacles the first home buyers faced when purchasing their new home build to rent is another solution they get an unlock supply and in that way help to address affordability there is an Australian national shortage affordable rental housing for low-income households of 500,000 dwellings and over 80% of residents of renters have no fixed term lease or are on a lease of 12 months or less and half of all renters have moved over three times and 10% have moved over 11 times renting in Australia is often seen as the last choice and something only to be done in the short term if possible but we can change that the creation of an institutional built to rent sector to deliver large-scale affordable well managed rental stock to the market would provide another viable secure housing choice the built to rent market including affordable rentals grew part of a transformational shift in the provision of diverse accessible and secure choices of both owned and rented homes this is a great opportunity for developers and governments to work together to create what has been done very successfully in the US and the UK whilst all the initiatives spoken about so far ways we can address affordable housing we also need to look at making the new homes affordable to live in and for the longer term we can achieve this through reduced living costs multi-generational housing and location proximity to amenity Merve accuracy launched a house with no bills it was designed to reduce or eliminate the cost of utilities through renewable energy and smart technology mervich will invite a family of four to live rent and bill free for twelve months to collect data and understand how people live and want to their utility consumption who then use these learnings and implement them more broadly into all of our communities so that more people can benefit from the sustainable initiatives and reduce cost of living in summary affordable housing is a complex issue and to meet the challenges globally it's going to require continued leadership and constructive engagement which only can be done through smart partnerships with government the private sector and the not-for-profit organizations thank you thank you very much thank you dr. Lu would you like to make your comments thank you thank you hi good afternoon I'm here today as a chairman of Center for liveable city but I was involved in public housing for twenty years so I treat the the content of it and talk about what Singapore has done in public housing just to give you a quick impression 1965 would became a country so the population grew tremendously the land also grows into a young country everything grows populate the GDP per capita goes and also the the household income ceiling for eligibility of affordable housing also went out from $800 to 12,000 dollars today so to make sure that people who kind of what private housing would always have a home to to go to so public housing in Singapore first of all the government's policy from where beginning was home ownership all we wanted people to be able own homes and affordability if you those of you who understand the simple market see our selling price in one of the new talent Ohio it's in the hundred thousands and it's really you know in private housing will be two or three times more than what people had to pay for the same floor area eligibility $2,000 household income payment and the at the moment we have built while including up to today about a million drilling units and eighty two percent of the people in Singapore live in public housing home ownership it's over ninety percent that means citizens as well as permanent residents including those in private housing because the government's goal is to make everybody become a stakeholder of this tiny place so that you know we have a great sense of ownership and belonging to this small place now in 1960 when we first started with 1.6 million people three other four person live in squatters by 1985 because of the strong push by the government we achieved these four statements no homeless no squatters no ghettos and also no ethnic enclaves in 25 years and this was 1963 other four percent live in this condition and this is today people live in public housing and the key concept of public housing would be we actually subdivide the city into regions then to 25 new towns and also neighborhoods and precincts so public housing plan is integrated with urban plan if you look at that small square inside there we have a very detailed plan this is the town and this is a neighborhood and below that you take one Aris and precinct so these are cascading hierarchy of communities and in order to ensure quality control to make sure each new town is highly self-sufficient this is the prototype for every new town in every new town we must have all these facilities and how much facilities are we talking about typically in a new town - 150 - to 200,000 people about 45% of the land is used for housing and the rest would be for facilities so we do mean business to make the new town highly self-sufficient and how do we make this thing happen I would say political commitment is very important I think clarity equals courage is the most important thing once you think through the issue you have a courage to do against the world trend for example in the 60 when Singapore was extremely backward and yet after thinking through we decided that the only way to do some housing problem is to go high-rise high density which was condemned around around the world at that time but we try to find out why high-rise agency was condemned by the rest of the world identify the causes and proceeded to eliminate it and we're very clear and fair criteria to rent to set the selling price and also the the government through good track record can actually acquire and exercise our land acquisition act to get land with people supports and we have delivery settlement policies to clear the squatters and also very creative financial system let me just show you the financial system okay maybe before that the besides a government I like to say that give myself a pet owner on the shoulder including my colleagues that we have competent colleagues we actually create the prototyping as you saw earlier and even standardizing of it everything to ensure quality control we get good feedback through property management and continuously improve our planning design details in policies rules and regulations and this is a creative financial system you take me half an hour to explain this so just to give an idea it is we create a kind of virtuous circle so that what we can provide something dies housing but the government also have income through other sources so that we can survive the subsidized housing example for the last 50 odd years okay then just to show that we did have become creative financial system and then the key message I would like to convey is that the affordable housing experience the key thing is a strong commitment and clear goals by the government and that leads to good track records and then that leads to trust from the people and effective rules because people do have been telling me the simple government's an autocratic government I think it does appear to be autocratic but we had to subject the government has a subject to totally secret ballot every five years so how would the government be able to be reelected and yet appear to be strong handed because the government delivered good track record burned the trust of people and therefore keep creating authentic measures to make things happen plus competent professionals and therefore I would like to say because of that we have been able to have a strong delivery okay this is 1967 it's a painting by my father of the national day in 1967 thank you thank you doctor thank you well as we've heard several times today Singapore very much the role model yes I think so our exemplar in terms of how you deliver and achieve the objectives we've heard I think it's fair to say a number of tailored solutions city specific solutions to the challenge and supply still obviously an issue in Hong Kong an issue in New York issue again in Sydney but different responses could could I just ask a couple of questions and then we'll move to audience and Greg I suspect you have some some questions as well on your on your pad first of all impact of leadership because it seems to be when you look at the cities that are really getting their heads around this if you like it's largely a function of the leadership particularly a strong man I know in New York needs to be very much the case yes I would say it requires a strong mayor in New York who's always had a strong it has a strong mayor system and certainly a mayor who is very focused and committed to the goal of affordable housing and prepared to put his money where his mouth is this isn't largely driven by money there are two other issues so that I think requires strong leadership because they require at least in a dense City a very tough decision making one is dealing with communities that for the most part don't want change and so how to integrate more density particularly affordable housing and particularly diverse economic households which are for New York is very important into existing communities requires very strong leadership and then the third issue that requires strong leadership is we talk about affordable housing but affordable housing for whom is it affordable housing for the very poor is it affordable housing to meet workforce demands because now in major cities even middle-class families are being priced out and the workers are being priced out how those decisions are made and how they're how they're implemented is a very important leadership function page leadership in Sydney yeah definitely and I think it's essential to have strong leadership and I mean especially in Sydney at the moment they categorized the affordable housing is hitting crisis point so both the Prime Minister and the premier are committed to making change and making it more affordable for residents in Australia which I think you need to make things change particularly the planning system so that supply can happen quicker and one of the other big things which I spoke about before is the bill to rent is in Australia there it's the Australian dream to own your own home so it is really a home ownership market rather than a rental market so it's how can we change and rental market is really seen as in any furia housing choice so how can we change that belief in the Australian market so that we can increase more supply and provide affordable housing through the rental side dr. Lu killer clearly have the leadership here in Singapore well I think I already mentioned that actually political leaders opened the doors for the technocrats a walk through if the political leader did not set introduce a clear policy introduce the legislations or setup well design government agencies there's nothing we could do and because there will be a little lots of roadblocks but in our case fortunately whenever there was a need the politically they would then design something either law agencies or strategies and finance of course important for example in my 20 years in HTP every year I had to submit a budget to the government not once budget was cut by one cent every year effective with but competent or sorry a technocracy important I think you know the fact that we planned design supervisor but most importantly manage properties and receive lots of complaints now instead of throwing the complaints we study the complaints analyze them the the four that we committed we eliminate them the good suggestion we reintroduce them to the the next project so another friends ask me which was my favorite new towns I said the latest one obviously thank you Greg I sense you got some questions on your pad some of them are quite spiky ok good I'm going to want to hear those so we're like spiking one of them is foreign buyers are often blamed for this problem affordability is that actually the case in these cities or how can we ensure that residents of affordable housing graduate into the main market and so what are we doing it to help them become better off there's a question very director dr. Lu saying isn't Singapore's 99 year lease hold structure going against sustainable homeownership and wealth preservation for families how do you see that policy changing so we take those three yeah what Sydney I know foreign investment in residential is an emotive topic so perhaps you could answer that it is I mean all the states specifically Sydney I think just recently they've increased it so there again to further it's now 8% in terms of a Ferb text to buy into Sydney yeah I think the the state do believe that that is one of the key reasons why there's such an increase in pricing and the short supply as well it's a catch-22 because they are also driving the development within each of the states but yeah it is definitely something surprising other people that live locally out of the market because it is just there is so much demand particularly in Sydney for apartments and housing generally that it's making it hard for first-time buyers to be able to afford to purchase and also compete because there's so many other buyers out there as well so I mean with the tax it has slowed it down slightly but I still believe with where the taxes are in you know to Singapore and Hong Kong they're still the the drive to invest in Sydney or Melbourne just a comment from Hong Kong for investment tends to be focused at the top end of the market or that and therefore the people are talking about today we're trying to get on the ladder are not directly affected although obviously if the prices rise to the top end it sucks up the whole market and I would also say in New York it's really a bifurcated market there's a top end and while foreign buyers are often seen as the as a cause in fact in many respects they're a solution because they cross subsidize the affordable housing on the one hand and second in a city like New York which relies so heavily on its real estate tax to finance all of this they are paying top real estate taxes for services that they're not getting because they're not there all the time and so it's really a bifurcated market dr. Lu 99-year leases mine sorry there was a question about yeah in fact to Nadi and well Singapore is such a tiny place the government fear that if we did not impose a lis system when we run out of land and we want to redevelop that country we don't have the land because in other cities if you make a mistake you just take over some agricultural land but we don't have that kind of luxury so in fact it the lis system in everything not just housing but in industry particularly has paid off very handsomely because for example in industry our lease period is like 15 years or 30 years or 15 plus 15 and many of the leases have expired and in the early days because of the kind of backwardness of the industry and the low rent er that we must stick to so we built pretty basic factory workshops and nowadays we want to lease contaminated we will acquire them back take them back and rebuild to high intensity and therefore you can have more industrial development with less land and we haven't really when it comes to housing we haven't come to that yet because it's 99 years but in the event that we do make a serious mistake the in them of shortly sub-layer I think it'll up yes I think Lisa it also is common across Asia it's not just a securing for phenomena we have 50 year leases in Hanko maybe I don't the other in Asia it is a special problem because we have 60% of world population on 30% of the world land so great to have some more I wouldn't say the question was also the question about the residence in affordable housing and how you help them to move up the housing ladder but there's two other contrasting ones here Nick so one person says integrating affordable housing into development is understood as an important part of ensuring diversity in growing cities but what can be done to help developers see path to the immediate bottom line when they're mandated to provide affordable housing and they complain about it brackets verses another point here that says in Hong Kong and New York where there in you know are there incentives for developers to provide the 30 percent or the 40 percent they're required to do otherwise isn't this policy just driving up the cost of producing housing and therefore making the problem you're trying to solve worse well I will in New York in very strong markets there are no subsidies and no incentives except that we are increasing density so we're creating new value new land value really for developers in return for their obligation really to provide a percentage of affordable housing in less than strong areas the city does provide sub for a period of time but also in those areas the percent of affordability is required permanently forever and so as the subsidy wears off the permanent affordability remains which is a means of preventing serious displacement and gentrification over time I mean just answer the question from a Hong Kong perspective and I think I can bring the two questions together in Hong Kong the idea is that yes the developer provides 30% but he'd be reflected in the price he pays for the the site and just to keep him under control if you like he'll only be allowed to sell these units up to a certain level of price and this links into the first question these units are targeted people who are on the ladder but want to move up so this is that this is a response to people who are in the HOAs or some form of subsidized purchase and want to move into the private sector two questions per page as well if I can tell you they are so I'm sure people are asking page which of the initiatives in Singapore New York and Hong Kong do you think are most transferable to the Australian market and then they also want to know what advice could you give to other developers who aren't yet sure of how to start making moves into also alternative approaches in Australia what would be the advice for others that to come into the market okay so the first one was which of the dunny interested in other cities and I think particularly being in Singapore and walking around and just seeing the built form outcome I think quite envious of Singapore's commitment to get things done and the fast planning approval process in Sydney I think that is obviously one of the biggest things that are impacting us to actually deliver more supply to the market and you come here and see what the beautiful buildings and the end outcome and their commitment to actually delivering it is quite impressive so I definitely think in terms of you know there is the benefit of having a clear goal and the commitment and the leadership to make that things actually happen and then in terms of the developer site I think there's some good examples of seeing how affordable housing can be integrated into developments right I think the one thing that we've learned is there is no blanket approach for any development and that's the one thing that we find difficult when talking to councils and government because you know you can't have this one-dimensional blanket approach because it doesn't work every markets different every sub markets different you know and you know we often have discussions with for example as a projecting waa we're working on with an exclusive waterfront development and they wanted us to provide 10% affordable housing in there and the average price was you know a million dollars and then their strata fees or the owners copper fees were sitting at 12 you know 10 $12,000 a year like how is that affordable we can we can give you your temps and affordable homes but who is going to pay for these ongoing cost as opposed that that is the great opportunity for the developer to give a cash in lieu and the money be put to a better building that's more service with no car parking probably less premium amenities and it's more affordable to live in so I think there is some definitely good examples throughout Australia that people can see how it does work do I have questions from the audience please on my right difficult to see with the light in your eyes but I can see you can we get a microphone please thank you yeah thanks for sharing I couldn't afford a house accommodation in New York so I'm a resident of New York seven days a year fractional ownership I just came back from Dublin Ireland the Guinness brewery their land lease and water rights is for the Dublin River 1,000 years they only consume 300 years so far would any of the cities consider 1,000 years and and I agree with you leadership Singapore Dubai the three mayors of New York are visionary leaders exemplars not example they walk to work so 1,000 years and Liesel would you consider it and fractional ownership of residents no the answer is probably not for New York City unlike most Asian cities doesn't own its land for the most part it's privately owned and so the land is owned in fee leases for tend to be relatively short-term leases but the affordable housing is affordable permanently and forever and the person who lives in that that unit of affordable housing can stay there as long as the family wants their rent may go up as their income goes up and in that sense they're on a ladder but but they're there permanently forever I'm sorry I see a red light I'm going to have to draw a line I expect them all questions but obviously chance to talk in the wings later just one thing I wanted to mention on affordability also is one of the unfortunate impacts we're seeing this across the region is called smaller and smaller units in order to make them affordable average size of units Hong Kong is now 41 square meters and we're building units of 20 square meters in order to respond to affordability challenges which very unfortunate but panel thank you very much indeed thank you [Music] you [Music]
