Mormon Stories #1323: The Excommunication of Bishop Sam Pinson and his Family in Ammon, Idaho Pt. 3

okay so to kind of loop this back now we were talking about you going down the rabbit hole but how but how your wife you Sarah maybe you starting to study mental health stuff was a help prepare you yes let's now jump back to that okay yeah so yeah first semester take a multicultural class learn about things like ethnocentrism my culture my values my belief system are not everybody else's and that that's not one is not better than the other and then if you believe that it's an eccentric right and that we don't we don't want to do that with our clients we don't impose our values so earlier when I was talking about missionary work not ever jiving with me I think for the first time I felt like oh this is who I am not - I don't impose my values on people this is just who I've always been and that's why missionary work didn't fit with me because that's really what you're doing and you're saying I have something you don't have let me share it with you rather than let me learn from you right so it was really validating and it helped me see that that was a good thing about me it didn't mean that I wasn't righteous it was actually a positive thing and very helpful in the counseling field so that was something I think my paradigm started shifting just where how could this be the one true church you know I just started considering other cultures and how they think they are doing the right thing they think that they're doing they're living their values and they're happy and how could that be in the program I also learned about substance use and how there's a difference between substance use and substance abuse and it just stopped being a moral issue for me where I think it can be seen as a moral issue for members especially when you can't go to the temple if you don't follow the word of wisdom so I started not really questioning but just if the church is here I was here with the church I just started just shifting everything my worldview everything I also started really valuing authenticity and knowing how important that is to mental health autonomy things like that so that I think when Sam said to me I feel like a fraud when I get up and I give talks to words and I don't believe any of this mmm and I was absolutely like go ahead now to be released go ahead and stop going like that wasn't a big shot well it was a shock it was a shock but I knew how important authenticity is to mental illness that I was like you I don't want you to live like that you need to do you go ahead and be released like I was 100% behind him what about him losing his faith like that's you know we talked about your marriage in your agreement the whole marriage was built around Mormon what do you mean well I guess the anger feeling like he was ruining our eternal that came later at first you were just worried about mental health yeah first I was like that's not healthy go ahead and ask to be released was he sharing with you the things that were causing him to doubt or was he holding that for you I don't think so no in depth so with the things that you were learning and the Church's position on social issues like yeah rights in gay marriage and everything yeah we started having conversations I hadn't revealed any of my concerns yet was that part of your training to be LGBTQ affirming oh absolutely it's good and intellectually I was like yeah yeah yeah I get that like if I help clients I can do that but I hadn't made the internal shift I still had a lot of biases I mean we all have biases right but for a class I had been encouraged to do a cultural project where I would pick a population that maybe I didn't know very well or I had biases towards and do something to kind of dive into that population and try to work on my biases and so I decided to interview three gay people and I said to say for a Mormon girl raised in Amman Idaho this is like uncomfortable unchartered territory I'm imagining it absolutely was is it's a prophet spoken right right and and I was terrified of the project I really was but the whole program was so there was so much self-development in a program I I just open I loved I loved every bit of it and I knew I was terrified of this but I knew that that I should do it and so I interview these people and one of them was kind of like a mini mormon story because he was raised LDS and to hear to hear him talk about hating himself and praying for years that he would be changed and going on a mission and asking for the mission president to give him a blessing that he would be changed it broke my heart and and yeah just all three of these people um I realized wait a minute they didn't choose this they wanted they would want to change it if they could they can't change it and all they really want it is to have a lifelong partner they can be with just like most of us want and how is that a bad thing like I that was a huge moment for me with all my stereotypes that I had learned kind of from the church and and some from society we're just broken down and yeah so at that point I was like the church has got this wrong they they've got it wrong but I was still very much still like in I I was like I can still be in the church and disagree with them on this shoo because it's still very helpful to me and you know it's still true maybe they just got this thing wrong I don't know how my brain kind of wrapped around it but but yeah that was a big shifting moment for me and realizing maybe they're not getting this information from God the prophets maybe they're working with their own biases and just trying to figure things out like the rest of us know so that was big and then also well I don't know if we want to talk about the temple changing - that was before you yeah so so in January 2019 when the temple changed what tell us what the teachers were so I didn't know what they were I heard there were changes so I go into the endowment to see what the changes are and the part that I'd been struggling with for decades saying that I should hearken to my husband as he hearkened to the Lord that was different they took it out they took it out with it change it to I well I can't remember now but I think it's just hearken to God just like the men it's the same covenant now and there were other changes by the way these are the types of things that King Kelly and ordain women would have been asking everybody you have to change right right so I remember sitting there and hearing that part and it was like I had a literal weight lifted off my shoulders I just and I didn't even realize how much that was weighing me down until that moment and it was just like oh you know heavens open and and if I felt immense relief and just contentment like ah this this is right but then I went home and started thinking but why did it have to be wrong all those years so and it was validating that that whole time this didn't sit well with me and then to come to find out it was wrong and then I started researching like the temple endowment and how I hadn't had lots of changes throughout the years and and pardon me was okay with that because they're making it better at least and I get that we're like um we're kind of the fruit of our time and so maybe there's changes but I had been told for decades that I was less than that's the message I got from that part of the temple and so I couldn't just wash that away it's like so yeah that I was relieved at first and then it became a huge problem a huge you know area of dissonance for me where I didn't make sense I have to say that's very similar to your concern about race and the priesthood because you're like I had been believing in defending racism for decades the kids just like make these changes that expect us all to go okay yeah so I'm glad for all the positive changes that the church is making but it's actually change that ultimately was the problem for me hmm and just backing up a little bit I think related to some of the stuff that we talked about earlier I was taught if you look at a woman with lust it's equivalent to adultery which is sexual sin which is equivalent to murder right and I made exactly those connections and that was part of the intense guilt that I felt growing up and I bridled my passions and pressed forward and then the gay marriage movement gains traction and becomes more in the news and in my face like I could just not pay attention to it earlier but then it becomes more in my face it becomes more of an issue and a problem for the church and then the church tries to change to accommodate and be less of less offensive unless other ring a less harsh and so they're creating websites like Mormon and gay and I'm now hearing from the church being at like having same-sex attraction having these feelings that's not sinful mmm that's not a problem just don't act on them and I'm what my entire life I've had heterosexual attractions and I've been told that's wickedness and and you better not do that and now it's okay for gays to have like there were some serious issues there that didn't make me what that didn't that wasn't like a breaking thing the church isn't true anymore but that was part of I'm starting to realize that I grew up thinking that there are these eternal principles absolute truths that I have that never change never have changed and now I'm finding out actually the church changes continuously with society it just drags a few decades behind that's that's what I observed yeah yeah if I could just add some another mic yeah it's just I hear a lot of people who are recognized that these changes take place and yeah that they're like yeah the church does lag behind these social changes and I know a lot of members who are like support gay marriage and are like call themselves like advocates and all these things but li-xia yeah which is good but in the process the church is harming people especially people living in very like specially people living in like Utah and Idaho and very homogenous communities who may be in are gay and don't have any sport communities they're being told all around them that they're evil and it's not okay to lag behind society like that's not good when you have prophets that are supposed to you know put you ahead of the curve if you discovered the prophets are actually way behind the curve then it came a problem yes yeah yeah well and while we're on the topic of like the practical problems with what religion produces we were having this conversation and I just had the thought I mean there's obviously maybe not a monopoly but religion certainly espouses and encourages hatred and Prejudice against homosexuality and the LGBTQ community and it's just so patently obvious especially from the outside that you if you want to you know encourage hatred of homosexuals then getting a bunch of voluntarily sexually suppressed men and then establishing double standards in your doctrine for what sexual sin is and is not I mean that's the perfect pathway to get to that which is obviously problematic smart kids okay so your standard yeah so and so I still haven't said anything to Sarah about what I'm thinking this is I'm researching I'm learning more I didn't want to do anything rash like hey you disavowed stuff not cool I'm out of here and I just wanted to make sure that I'm cool headed I'm well informed I know what's going on and so I researched and researched and researched she starts sharing things that she's learning with the counseling program and her developing increasing concern that dissonance with the Church's position on social issues and so I guess I started feeling well you're kind of criticizing the church there I've got some criticisms and so we started having critical conversations about problems that we saw in the church yeah but I was not open to the historical stuff for me the social justice stuff was it if it's harming people and if it's not aligning with my values anymore that's huge if people did weird things in the history like if he wants to look in a hat together become Mormon it's still a great book like you know I was I'm not feeling that way now but at the beginning I was not open to all the history that he was sharing and it was unvarying comfortable unpleasant and I was just the opposite for me it was all about the truth I thought I had it in the church and then I found out that the church was lying to me the entire time and so that was it and unlocking myself from the prophets moral code and allowing myself to decide for myself what my values are and what my what I want to support and everything that like I understand and on board with progressive social issues now which blows my mind totally a hundred and eighty degrees different from my political views and everything growing up that were dictated to me more or less by the church as I understood them and Mormon stories listeners will have heard me talk about this many many times I got this from dr. Dave Christian a dear psychologist friend in in Logan Utah I gave a talk in Mormon stories conference once where he talks about the validity and the utility distinction with in Mormonism that there's validity Mormons that are in it because they believe it's true and that was you Sam and then there's utility Mormons that are in it because it works because it's useful and that was sort of you and if we have to go along a stereotype kind of role men tend to be more validity Mormons they care about its truthfulness women tend to be more utility Mormons they care about it helping you raise kids and and being a good support for the marriage and for the family and so women tend on average tend to care less about the history at least at first and the men tend to care less about the social issues and so you guys fit that mold pretty yeah yeah and so when he would tell you these things you would react how I would feel sick to my stomach I would listen to him I I wasn't going to shut him up I wanted I wanted him to be able to share I wanted him to be able to open and again I think my counseling program helped prepare me for that but yeah I would very much be like okay and then I'll just put that over there okay I heard that and put over there and and I had read Mormon enigma like years ago so I knew about it's about Emma Smith and polygamy and Joseph lying so I already knew a lot of that Joseph lang geumja about all the ways he was marrying or not marrying yeah and sleeping with right yeah so I knew that I don't I don't know I can't fathom why it didn't bother me when I first read it because the bubble is real and we even went to not view for like a family road trip and I would I asked the lady you know it's it's the tour guides our community of Christ people I said are these the stairs that Emma pushed Eliza snow down when it's a snow was having sex with Joseph right right yes and the community crazy it was like I don't know if that story's real like excited sometimes you're just not ready right for the information to get through your armor but yeah sure yeah well and I mean I actually draw a lot of parallels between like OCD that I personally experienced and just like like things like that like for example the it's really depressing I think particularly as a child of YouTube who are amazing parents paying him later like the fact that two people who I know love each other very much could both hold reservations or criticisms of this great organization this all could an aspect of anyone's lives and not like like have to you know beat around the bush with that like in that relationship that to me is like that's the exact sort of mental imprisonment that was my stay as like highly mentally dysfunctional and that's something that really you know drives me up a wall is when I see like the mental captivation that religious thought whether you're indoctrinated as a child or converted really just you know forces upon it's I'd say victims yeah it's not a super popular not good terms to use but like mind control is a thing I think's and if you're in you know you can call it teaching or education you can call indoctrination you call it mind control but the power that the church has psychologically this bubble of not just you being insulated physically from friends and from non-mormon influences your brother etc but but the psychological walls that go up so that you could be clearly having feminists sensitivities even know about Joseph's polygamy in the lying and but it never penetrate to actually have you ask wait is this true and do I really believe this and is this okay there's so many walls up that keep people completely insulated and it really is it's cult-like and it's mind control and it's incredibly powerful did you want to add something yeah well for me it was really interesting when they they left the church because I had like given up on the church probably well it's complicated because I I kind of feel like I walked a fine line between the validity and the utility thing I think I was more interested in the utility and so the church wasn't useful for me it hadn't been since I was me a lot of distress and so but I stayed because like that cult-like mentality and my entire community is based around it yeah that's right yeah cousins and grandparents literally everyone and so I kept going to church even though I hated it and but I was always trying to force myself to love it and so there's a constant like battle so when and I was also terrified people would find out about my sexuality thankfully were you internally identifying as bisexual yes so I I I realized I liked girls before I'd actually even heard the term bisexual and I remember we went on a road trip and I I i discovered that term there and I was like it was easier for me than a lot of people who struggle with their sexuality in the church because I think I already didn't believe like in my core I didn't believe and so I didn't feel like I was evil right it was easier for me to accept it within myself but there's still that external fear that other people would find out and then judge me or hate me or condemn me and so it's just be clear was there attract traction to guys to or okay okay yes I am yeah I'm bisexual and so I think that that made it easier also because no one was suspecting me because I like you guys knew I like I had a crush on a guy before right so I didn't feel like I was ever like had to hide it but I also it made it feel I felt more invisible in a sense but when you guys left it sort of channeled this breaking point where I because you kept going to church for a while like after dad left right a little bit right it was that like transition period and I I felt like I needed to make I needed to make sure that my choices were completely separate from your guys's if that makes sense and so I that's why I started like going talking with the ship so much I thought maybe I'm wrong you know maybe I could just try one more time and it was probably not until November of 2019 that it just broke and I was like I'm not wrong I'm leaving and like the release like I was so happy it was the best feeling in the world it was it's so freeing so release yourself from that coleg mentality it's weird because so many people talk about religious conversion it's like this powerful incredible happiest moment of their lives and you're talking you're talking about deconversion it was incredible yeah well and something really interesting that came with it was I'm not sure why this came with it but with that release came this very like it was like my sense of eternity sort of left and I felt very I felt like I was gonna like I had a I don't know sorry I'm not gonna for it I had a clear concept sure I had a clear concept that I was going to die and that sounds morbid but like it was just this I all of a sudden had this passion to live for life rather than for other people or for some concept of God or eternity and to me that was very free love that so powerful okay so we kind of jumped ahead a bit cuz you're talking about your dad leaving the church and we did we haven't heard that so another thing that Olivia reminded but I'm glad we heard that yeah that was beautiful after I interviewed those three gay people I think Sam and I had a hunch with Olivia sexuality she would kind of drop hints she would share with us like a lot of advocating for the lgbtq+ community and so so I guess we kind of had a hunch but then after interviewing them I thought I never want a child of mine to not be able to talk to me about this because I I heard the stories of how crippling that was and and so I just said do you think you're gay like I just asked that one night and well and that's um what was amazing is that I didn't come out I mean I was trying you know well yeah a little but you asked me and that was amazing that you were able to have that open mind - yeah I will and I remember when we had that conversation and dad walked in and then he was like like this was it's actually the one suggesting to me I think Olivia might be gay and I was like oh yeah anyway I mean I'm really I'm very grateful for that it I don't think I struggled with my sexuality the way a lot of young Mormons do so good job guys I had a couple of thoughts that I think are relevant in the whole story so I think of some time after the gospel topic essay race and the priesthood came to my attention still bishop still faithfully serving haven't said anything to sarah in the evening decompressing laying on the bed chatting on my phone on facebook looking at stuff and there was a somebody we knew from Washington State who apparently had apostatized and was talking on Facebook about things that he had learned and he was criticizing the church and I that of course gets your defenses up and I didn't feel good about it but I didn't stop reading I I still read some of what he was saying and he mentioned this publication called the CES letter I didn't read it but I became aware of it at that point and then after do I know this person I'm Jeremy Reynolds just somebody in our ward okay in Amman he was actually a yeah he was a missionary missionary who served he married somebody who was in our ward and that was that a connection okay so then I was aware of the CES letter and then when I was revisiting all of these things in doing research then I decided I'm going to find out what that's all about and I read about all of the issues and that this is two years ago yeah yeah yeah and so it's like every day you're learning something new you read the book of Mormon a billion times as a member and you're supposed to learn new things but I kind of knew the gospel I there aren't these grand new revelations coming and I knew it and and then I find out as a budding apostate that there's so much and so I was soaking up all kinds of new information we were having these discussions I was sharing with her what I had was reading in the CES letter I invited her to read it at what point did you take better it took me a long time he bought a physical copy and just like put it on the table in our house and I think I instinctually knew that it would be my downfall so I didn't pick it up I wasn't ready for that amount of growth yet pick it up for a long time I don't actually remember when I read it but after that my heart had already left because of the social issues and disagreeing with the church and my paradigm-shifting but I couldn't leave intellectually I wasn't ready to yet or I couldn't stop thinking it was true yet and I kind of knew the CES letter would do that so I once I read the CES letter I was it was a done deal mm-hmm because if if it's not if there's no utility you see the harm in it and then you also have that historical part the validity what's left yeah you just can't fight against it it's what were there any specific things in the CES letter that were really impactful to you he's talked about you know Book of Abraham Kinderhook plates Book of Mormon translation historicity of the Book of Mormon we know that you had LGBTQ issues and feminism issues and actually one opportunity for the CS letter and Jeremy is intentionally not like adding to it because it represents what he was concerned about at the time but like it doesn't talk about race too much or women's issues or LGBT issues so but just curious what what were the biggies for you I think I was still really hanging on to the Book of Mormon it had been a comfort to me and I found a lot of solace in it over the years so I was really hanging on to that so when I read about the anachronisms when I read about the similarities between other books written at the same time look at Napoleon and view the Hebrews and right yeah that crushed my thoughts about the Book of Mormon because you felt like what I felt like he made it up like Joseph made it up from existing texts and ideas right which doesn't mean that I that I never felt power I don't know how to explain it the Lord of the Rings is powerful right right it doesn't mean that I never rich those good things and it doesn't mean that I didn't feel powerful experiences while reading it but that it wasn't historical that he did make it up mMmmm okay so though that was your big takeaway that was the big thing from the CS letter I wish I had kind of flipped through it again to remember cuz like I said I already need I knew that polygamy what I didn't know the extent yes the 30 wives yeah which is what for those who don't he married women who were already married to other men you faithful living man faithful living man yeah yeah who were sent away on this we'd sent men on missions and then marry their wives or try to while they were gone the whole Orson Pratt thing is like insanity episode because of finding like funny what finding out that while he was gone his wife had been approached by Joseph and I can just imagine the cognitive dissonance he was dealing with and how they kind of called it him having a sanity episode just things like that that are horrific and and now I could see it as well Hugh's spiritual manipulation he you know threatening them with the turn you know he turn out be my wife or your family won't be saved or or you will be saved only if you be my wife that kind of stuff just repulsive yeah and the witnesses like that was yes I was hanging under the witnesses to the three witnesses in the a witness is I was thinking about Harris and like what can go wrong over that was a huge so what what happened to the witnesses just that their accounts weren't that they actually saw the plates that it was that they saw it as in as if envisioned spiritualize yeah was spiritualize you thought that they were physically and so and so if they saw what their spiritual eyes what does that mean to you Imogen's or they worked themselves up into a frenzy to imagine that they saw it or I mean the mount the mind is powerful so they could have imagined seeing it I don't know what it means especially they aren't as credible as I had thought yeah what's our like family financial well and you know the the group pressure psychologically if someone says I see something then you try to like imagine that you're seeing it too right so yeah yeah so the witnesses fell yep and that that with all the other Book of Mormon stuff you know ruin the Book of Mormon for me mm-hmm yeah I think just overall on top of all it's just the pervasive massive dishonesty like the church why am I getting all of this from Jeremy Reynolds why didn't the church teach me that if there's nothing to be afraid of here if this is they were just acting as men why are you not telling me that the prophets are acting as men and the reason why is because you wouldn't end up with super zealous people I mean I was like I'm following because God's speaking through these prophets and what I actually I can't imagine having a super powerful experience at General Conference if they stood up we welcome you to General Conference some of what you hear today is going to be Commandments take what you will some of it might be uplifting you're helpful okay first speaker so on the one hand when people find out about these issues they try to explain it as you're trying to judge them by the standards of today it was just a man and while simultaneously saying prophets always teach the truth and this is maybe this will come up later I'll address that later but it the dishonesty was there from the beginning and it continues today and when you're part of a fraud you don't realize what's happening mmm it's yeah so for me I have no it wasn't what I was sold it wasn't what I thought I had and I have no use for somebody claiming to speak for God who's actually just telling me their opinion yeah yeah well and that was um it relates somewhat to the Disciplinary Council which again we'll get to but like a it's so like inherently contradictory to say in one breath you know like I speak and act with the authority of God like the almighty creator of the universe and all that's good like like that being backs me up but the things that people act on my words that people acts you know lived and died on they might be opinions you know like who knows like it's not just a matter of like well you have less powerful converts it's a matter of what are you saying because both of those things just can't be true and that's what's incredibly frustrating about the whole illusion is this idea that on one hand we're gonna say yes I will do whatever the prophets say because and then on the other well you know those guys the ones that contradict the prophets of today they were just spreading their opinions to your point yeah yeah okay so what happened then so at some point so at some point you just lost all belief and yeah and you're still I guess you're still hanging on is that well for about seven months I did what was that conversation where you're like I'm done so where I said well so I was doing all this research and I I guess I got to a point I don't even remember when exactly it happened I think it must have been in February I think it was February last year yes okay nineteen I was still on the High Council and so I you have your assignments where you're supposed to go around representing the stake president and testifying of the truthfulness of all of this and I can't do that so I met with the stake president and I asked him I said hey these are things that I've learned like disavowal is there some way that you've like you know about that right is there some way you've interpreted that that makes it okay or how have you processed that and there there is no for me did he thought about it the knowledge the problem yeah he was aware of it and I think it was it's just they were speaking as men they and so you don't expect perfection you're like Moses made mistakes prophets make mistakes this is nothing new here nothing to see here and so why didn't that work for you well I suppose if they did say hey welcome to conference some of what you will hear will be like if they were honest to me about the the fact that a lot of what I hear from prophets is just their opinion if allowed for that at all in the present maybe it would have worked for me but they that's what that only applies to past prophets the current prophets speak for God and they must be obeyed and relied on out a percent like it's yeah you can't have it both ways it's dishonest so what if somebody were to say you were just set up for failure like you're it's unfortunate that you had conservative parents that taught you true or false the binary thing but what if I were just to say you were you were you misunderstood it is both it's it's that they're led by God but they're fallible and so it's both you you were just you just believed an inferior rigid type of Mormonism that's sets you up for failure when in reality yeah it's both it's it's that they're doing the best that they can they are led by God but they're gonna make mistakes and you kind of live in that middle ground yeah so we started well I guess this came a little later but what I found following we don't have to get there yeah okay if you're not ready well you say that so what would I say to that I don't think I misunderstood anything you told me that I should obey the Prophet follow the Prophet follow the Prophet follow the Prophet and you did not when you were telling me things you did not allow for the possibility that the Prophet could be wrong and I could be right you did not allow for the possibility of me getting revelation that contradicts what the Prophet says and I'm right and the Prophet is wrong yeah they explicitly disallow that and so it doesn't work for me right well and and I was taught that kind of nuance like that yeah my dad talked about knowing that the priesthood ban was wrong but knowing that things come from the Brethren and that you wait for them to get it so so I did kind of hold that nuanced place which is why after feeling like the church was wrong about gays I could still be a member and I could still participate but it got to the point where if I can disagree with them and still be a good member of the church but like okay fine but what's what's the point if I'm fine if I'm just following my values and I'm not necessarily following theirs because I think they're wrong then why do you need them myself I don't need to wait for them to change the game policy I don't need to write I can just live my life now we know that well and I personally consider that the courage not only of you and dad but also of the that sort of secular like morality right is I don't need an ever-changing inconsistent unreliable religion or religious people to dictate what my moral should be right and obviously technically speaking the church follows that type of thinking as it progresses with society just lagging behind and I just I have a thought in respect to the question of you know well what if the men are fallible but they do still speak for God not only like you know are there plenty of problems with that I think even if like there hadn't been contradictions even if it was all honesty it calls the entire religious system into question like the Bible alone you know where you find cultural instances of the Bible where it's like this seems to condone slavery well shucks like oh I guess this is the fal ability now right but that's the point everything is not only open to interpretation at that point it's open to interpretation by anyone with equal validity and that I think is the crux of how it's just impossible to answer that question sense in a satisfying manner mm-hmm and add something yes well just in I don't want to like attack anyone or call anyone out but in light of like recent events we've seen with like racism and police brutality the problem with the profit being your ultimate authority or God being your ultimate authority especially when it's within a church that has a spouse's racist and still espouses racist teachings um a lot of my friends the only thing they've really said about all of this is sharing Russell and Nelson's words on it and like to me that just feels very I understand why they're doing that but when you're not comfortable enough to speak up with your own words and you're using the words of some prophet like it's just it's counterproductive and it's wrong yeah I think about it you know there are a lot of things I could do with my time and and I'm I'll just ask your forgiveness for just a tiny little editorial be really brief but a lot of things I could do with my time I I'm into politics I was a Poli Sci major I could get into politics I could do mental health stuff like I could go in the business so why do I keep doing this like I do believe that religion is a binding force if you look at and this isn't even me being political like partisan because I'm not super democrat or super Republican I care about truth and health and well-being not about parties I don't I think both parties are problematic both parties have good things to say I could be a Republican or Democrat depending on what issue we're talking about here but if I think about the ills of society which is poverty racism sexism homophobia ignorance just ranker like all the problems of society I sometimes feel like it can be religious forces that bind people into mentalities that are not healthy for us and it's not that I'm even anti religion because there are plenty of religions that are progressive in their sensibilities but I'm anti high-demand authoritarian religions that keep people with a sexist racist homophobic anti you know anti-progress mentality that allows these systems to stay broken that allows for brutality and suicides of LGBT youth and oppression of women and all these things that we just need to fix and so again I thought that I'm anti religion but I'm against oppressive ideologies that that anesthetize and and cause people to fall asleep to the social and cultural problems that are that are facing this I apologize for that but that's how I feel I was awesome well and that just makes me think I had a great conversation with a good friend of mine who is Mormon and he's in debate which I like a lot and so you know he's the kind of person you could actually talk about something very personally sensitive like your religious beliefs right and we had a conversation and that I think was actually somewhat productive he his mind money have been shifted on a few things and one of the things to your point was that I mentioned was like look at the double standard that religion doesn't just encourage but necessitates right like when we want to know whether or not the earth is flat or not right let's look at the evidence and you know hopefully it's pretty clear to most people that the earth isn't really flat right but when it comes to religion not only do we start with a premise right and then try to fill in the gaps along the way we say any piece of evidence that backs us up qualifies as proof because it satisfies my personal need for this thing to be true and that's just you know there's an infinite number of examples of that kind of thinking but it is that kind of thinking that allows religious individuals and institutions to say yeah you know racism okay we can have our opinions on that but at the end of the day this religions got to be true and if it means being racist go ahead and be racist so instead of starting with the data and then and then following the data to the conclusions that are most healthy and true and positive for the most amount of people you start with the religious assumptions that usually were formed in the Bronze Age right right if the evidence conflicts with your Bronze Age Bronze Age ideology they need then you got to stick with the religion no matter what right and Karl Popper a great thinker of the 1900s he like that's the definition of a pseudoscience as far as he's concerned right like confirming a belief rather than attempting to disconfirm it that is the definition of a pseudoscience and yet this is what religion is or can be right yeah okay so you fall down the rabbit hole and you're how do you tell her you're done so or whatever else keep going well I think where we were as we had talked and I got to the point where I was done and we had been having these critical conversations so she knew that I'm I'm finding problems and I'm I think that wasn't a surprise right but that's hard to remember but there came a point where I said I can't testify that I know the church is true anymore and and and like I had said I was fine with that I was like Kay go ask to be released but there was a moment when I said well what if you just testified of Christ and you didn't like testify of the church and you just testified about Jesus Christ and there was a look in his eyes and I was like I don't think he can't even do that right now and I was terrified for people like like don't touch God Jesus you know you can fudge spoke of Mormons justice Smith maybe but God Jesus don't touch that right hostess so yeah I mean I was too scared to ask but I could tell by that look in his eyes that he couldn't even do that is that Kay go and so I think if I remember correctly that was in February 2019 yeah I think so and so no satisfactory resolution and I I really didn't expect one from the state president he said okay we can do that stay okay so was he was he like oh my gosh I've got a an apostate in the works here former bishop and a state guy councilman who's becoming apostate did do you think the alarm bells went off in his mind last year and and did that come out in any way oh yeah I think well like that some day he would be excommunicating I think obviously he wanted to communicate love and reconciliation and hey there are answers you've known the church is true your whole life you'll figure this out he was encouraging he was kind and wanted to accommodate my continued journey to eventually come back in any way that he could state conference was coming up in May and one of my assignments was over technology and so I had I still I didn't want to do anything hurtful or anything I said I'll continue to do that part I'll fulfill that assignment and then like I'm not going to be doing my High Council stuff anymore immediately but I'll keep helping helping with that so for a few more months I did continue and it was still confidential I think I so I met with the stake president and I met with my bishop and they knew Sara knew I hadn't told the kids yet and and then we get to stay conference was that about when we told everybody oh no no no what was it before that a little bit before that you know one question I have we haven't talked about them rolling back to November 2015 policy you guys remember when that was rolled back and how you received it where do we talk about it we haven't specifically talked about that thing for you guys or not I mean was that that was 2019 but what month was it I remember I think it was spring yeah I think you're right of what you're washing 2019 March yeah baby March so I was already I already knew that the church was a fraud at that point so yeah it was just one more thing yeah this is total another change absolutely exactly for you for me it was it was kind of like the temple change but worse good well because it was like four years ago what and you're saying we were both revelation and you're and they're full Sun and love your policy was a revelation that's when I was like yeah they're there they're doing their best but they're making they're making it up yeah is they go yeah there's just more validation for what I already felt but yeah so then certainly so the stake president had said that I would be like they'd work on finding a replacement and so I was waiting for that to happen and it wasn't happening and it wasn't happening I wasn't happening and then I don't it did it not happen until state conference it didn't and I then one of the counselors in the stake presidency wanted to talk to both of us and maybe I don't know if it was a last-ditch effort to try to do you at least have you help with technology in the future cuz that had been this mammoth project that he had worked on with another person and right so I think they were could you just do that we have an assignment they invited me to offer prayer if I remember correctly instinct in one of the meetings and also to meet with elder Bednar and cool my because he represents an organization that is lying has lied like how do you respect that it was I don't I so like yeah can we put him on the spot guerrilla prove that there you know you didn't want any hey yeah I had a TV show to watch or something I don't need to hear lying words from elder Bednar so I declined that and and then finally the release was coming and then it was it would be kind of out there and no we because I wasn't going to church anymore and so it must have was irk it was did you tell the kids yeah we're not going to church anymore yeah we gathered the family all around maybe you want to share your experience there go ahead okay um well they were I wasn't surprised and it wasn't that I saw it coming but it was that like when he said that I was like oh yeah I mean we haven't had family home evening inland months we haven't really been saying prayers we have me doing scriptures I noticed you guys just talked about things differently I don't really remember anything specific this was the end of the school year junior year and so I was kind of self-absorbed and I had a lot going on so I wasn't I don't think I saw it coming but yeah when he saw it I wasn't surprised at all and the first thing that I thought was how freaking ironic because just my entire journey with the church had been sort of this resentment of like I can't speak up I feel silenced I'm I I was caught in a cycle of dishonesty because I wanted to be honest but I wasn't and like to this day I really wish that I had been and instead I just hit a lot of things and so when when dad was all of a sudden so honest with us it was refreshing but also a little bit unnerving because it was just a lot to process well then and I don't want to speak for you so you can tell me if I'm wrong but some resentment like why does he get it be open and honest why does he get to not be silenced where I felt like I was silent so you know you maybe you were feeling that way absolutely and yes I definitely felt that way and I also I kept I continue to go to church partly because of our I am I'm the oldest of five and besides Sam like the younger three siblings especially I'm Emily I'd say like really struggled with it because she's she was caught in that divide of everything I've been told my whole life is all of the sudden being told to me to be false and so I feel like I needed to be there for them and I didn't need to be there for you but I felt like I did a little bit because you really struggling with it - yeah sure but at the same time it was like painful for me to be there because I just wanted to get out of everything yeah so you so just to be clear you were worried about your mom and you were wanting to be a support as a child to your mom yeah cuz I thought well I saw the emotional toll that it was taking on her well what did it look like from your perspective um she was very pensive all the time and she'd cry sometimes but um I don't really know how to phrase it I mean it was hard for her cuz her entire world view was crashing down yeah hmm that's sweet that you wanted to be there for your mom yeah um my side of things just a little bit less sweet I had grown accustomed up until that point to being I think a relatively reasonable you know 15 year old so who knows how reasonable really but you know relatively reasonable and not one to allow emotions to dictate my actions certainly not for a sustained period of time but it was I would be lying to say that anything but deep-seated resentment and anger was what arose from that um partly because and I'm a bit surprised by this I didn't see it coming at all it was totally out of the blue for me and you know I was obviously despite my exploration of ideas and philosophy 100% in overall and so yeah for months there was resentment obviously against that you're mad at dad oh yeah oh yeah well and and the way that it was presented as I saw it was like dad was like you know see yeah like the church and I are cuts now and you were still believing at the time here's the thing so yes the the easy answer is yes but not really because what happened there was just like all-consuming like holy crap you know first like shock and then trauma and then resentment you know anger like read how just like this is messed up like how could my be flipped upside down like this and then you know like a resentment that may have lasted for a while unfortunately but at the end of the day I think that the very fact that that happened like that was it for me in regards to my belief of the church because I I think that something I've noticed with you guys describing your apostasy is that the realisation of the possibility of invalidity like that was the crux of what made it possible to leave the church and that was really my thing is in the most brutal like traumatic instantaneous way you know my dad who was bishop and who was and is my role model you know saying you know out of the blue I don't believe the church anymore I'm done with it you know like establishing this whole new order at home that for me um was just like the snapping of the fingers now I not only realized but was living the possibility of the church not being true and again I think especially with being taught to be reasonable and rational and being exposed to the philosophical ideas after the resentment died down and I wasn't like rage attending church um it was pretty simple for me to just say yeah none of this stands in the way I now see the world this is pretty intense like Mike Mike my kids went through this like it's one thing to go through a faith crisis and all that that represents it's another thing to do it in an Idaho Utah town that's small where what 80 plus percent of the people are Mormon and like all your friendships you know it's hard enough to be a teen try being a teen in a heavily Mormon town when you and your whole family are apostatized what was that like for you guys well if I had to just bring up one experience to summarize what that was like I didn't tell my friends about my dad or my own falling away and leaving of the church for quite a while and the first interaction I had with one of my closer friends who themselves was Mormon I just you know told her I was like hey you know like I should tell you this since we're close blah blah blah I'm not I'm not I don't believe in the church anymore and the first thing out of her mouth was have you read The Book of Mormon and and that was was like another reinforcing layer under the idea of like holy crap not only is it possible for this not to be true but like there is a layer of like well I can't like my friend be assuming or going to the idea that I hadn't even read the book of Mormon and that's why you know I was falling away like the fact that that was me just months or weeks ago that really blew my mind and helped us solidify the idea of you know maybe there are problems with this religion and so that was that basically encapsulate what my experience was in telling people I knew about that I've ever you Olivia what was it like having your family lose their faith in a man Idaho well yeah since I had already lost my faith you know at least for the most part it was a lot of it was a lot of resurfacing of like pasts like feelings and things because you guys were so honest about your experiences which I really was proud of you for like you were I mean you found freedom like sharing things on Facebook or just having discussions and you were like kind and honest and open about it and I I felt like I've never been able to do this and then I was like why can't I just be braver like why can't I just be more honest but at the same time it was like I was never allowed of that room and so it I think it I just learned a lot about being honest to myself and others I remember I just remembered honesty being on my mind a lot and like Who am I really and who do I want to show to the world which was really freeing again but yeah there was still that resentment of like I know what do you guys get it be so free and open about this and free like years I didn't feel like I could do that or when I tried I was so pushed back against but like no I I forgive [Laughter] sorry what's and it's different to be 30 or 40 or to be a child and to not even maybe have the words to conceptualize your experience or to have no rights right you know that's hard yeah one thing I tried to say at the when you were in that meeting the excommunication meeting was you wouldn't you wouldn't call a like 14 year old and what's even the word in a pasta and pasta right like even though I didn't like but they'll call you an apostate because you were in a position of power and you I have many of the same questions that you guys did as a kid but it's easier to control children and it's easier to silence them what's that like for you guys to know that kind of your daughter your teenage daughter kind of figured it out before you did as adults because we weren't on the same page it created conflict in the family and in our relationship we had rights specifically between the two of us years were fighting some strong person and very strong opinions about things yeah so you have conflict yeah our relationship generally was not good and I take responsibility for my role in that it was for me largely motivated by the worldview that did not accept her the patriarchal and homophobic not accepting her to have questions those three things like I know the church is true and and there is no other possibility so figure it out that the impatience the homophobia and the I preside I think there were elements of all of that I have a story do you mind story she's gonna say it's not anything really it's just like after soon after you told us you were leaving the church I remember we were having dinner and I called on Kevin say the prayer and he said the prayer and then immediately after there was this backlash of like what did you just do and I knew that it was deeper than because the way you explained it was I'm the head of the house like I call him people say prayers and I don't want prayers at dinner and so I understood that but I knew there was something deeper where you didn't you didn't like you didn't want the prayer it wasn't just that you were head of the house so that was that that head of the house idea what it took some time to dismantle yeah absolutely yeah so post Mormon man can still be a pitcher cool yes but he was I don't want to talk about that I mean that incident for the next hour there was a lot that we could talk about that sure absolutely and and at the end of the day I mean it's depressing to me I mean for example I think we've always had a pretty good relationship Olivia and I have been a sort of case studies of polar opposites in terms of our family I guess I feel like we've pretty much always had a great relationship and so part of the shock of the whole religious you know Exodus thing was having intensely negative interactions with you that wasn't something I was used to and so then you know when you have have that added on top of the shock and trauma and resentment and then when you know we're attending church and then you're like as you did giving up in sacrament meeting you hear something like crying like and I'm just sitting there like dying inside you know it's those levels of like the pain and the the surprise negativity and all these things that yeah it breaks pee and it breaks families and that's why I think that it's very often the people who say religious organizations particularly the church like there they may have problems but they do good things there's truth to that I think it's particularly true that religions do good for the people who they work for right I think this idea is been mentioned and for the people who they don't work for whether Olivia or apostate it's like then it's freaking not good so what was the conflict like you're finding truth why are you having conflict with your family well so in I stopped going and I didn't I told them what the things that I had learned and that was kind of the end of it Sarah and the kids were still gonna go to church you you didn't tell them everything you said I found out about the disavowal and it's made me question the prophets and he didn't like barf everything from the CES letter on to them but yeah but but they knew I don't believe anymore and I'm not going to church anymore there were tears and there was tension from that moment on yeah so they kept on going to church I stayed home Sam said it that damaged our relationship i from my point of view I lost all credibility all credibility in regards to anything spiritual moral or anything like that I was no longer the person to talk to and I had no business talking to him about any of that teams could be fierce when it comes to spiritual matters you are not an authority for me to look like that as much which thank you to the church for all that yeah absolutely there was conflict along those lines something I I will say is that it there was only that level of toxicity in regards to credibility which I don't think extended quite as far as you may think but certainly in like explicitly spiritual and moral fashions obviously like how could that credibly not be at the reckless challenge right and so but even given that I am totally certain that it wouldn't have been anywhere near as bad if you know a large part of the image of you as a father as the head of a house as the bishop as a spiritual and moral leader especially for a son right I mean that image being not just changed but totally shattered like that is again the sort of the same the same reason that there was resentment I think led to their being well that extreme loss of credibility yeah I don't fault you for your response at all I understand totally get it so I was taking the kids to church we didn't we let him choose if they wanted to come it would change every week who was coming our third child our daughter Emily is I think it hurt her the hardest emotionally she would cry at school she would cry a church because all her life her dad had taught her the truth and then I for him to go back on it and she loved the church and she's like this beautifully social butterfly everybody loves and so she loved the people she loved Church and I think it was the hardest for her so it got to the point where it was just me and Sam and Emily pretty much our youngest too they drop off pretty quick really fully like why would I go to they get it really quickly even our 11 he's 12 now 12 year old Kevin he I never liked it anyway he well he didn't say that but he said the profits could be wrong and like he's really a deep thinker and he really he stopped going cuz he didn't believe it anymore our youngest was just like I don't want to go but but yeah Kevin even our 12 year old he was 11 at the time or 10 whoa yeah he did the math yeah he's very logical and and as a scientific mind so so yeah I didn't yeah he stopped going so yeah it was just me and Sam and Emily for quite a while in May I checked there so in in terms of conflict nobody was really compelling anything but Sunday morning Sarah would go in and say hey time to get up and go to church not not with a thou shalt go to church but hey now's the time to do it and they had concluded they didn't want to go and so there would be tears and whining and everything and I went into the room and said if you don't want to go you don't have to I didn't tell them not to I just let them know that is an option for you and then that was that for them they they both say yeah and I was honestly fine with what were the kids wanted but it was hard going to church and for so many reasons but one of which like what kids are here today like what primary teacher is missing their kid today and looking at me like is that my fault or is we know through the grapevine that there was discussion that Sam was like poisoning our children and concerns of ward members of that was happening and which is was so the word gets out yeah yeah well I in attending anymore and I got out cuz I gotta run outside and go ahead and say what you were gonna say I just wanted to say like who's weird for me because poison me you know what I mean like you didn't even influence me really right [Laughter] yeah I think some people especially older people in our ward like didn't notice that I didn't want to be there right I kept going to church so yeah well and can I just say hearing you guys recount the the changes in parental behavior right in terms of like thou shalt go to church to thou devil versus you know we never talked just like going to church is part of being an expectation that's much better way of phrasing it um I'll just say it sounds like you guys could write a like a parenting guide to Mormon parents and just say leave the church like that's the the first step to enabling healthier families if anything well I think that's all a matter of experience that's the way it worked for me right but but you know it's gotta be a big thing emotionally for you to have been Bishop for four and a half years in this Idaho town and then within two years of not being Bishop you you don't go anymore you're taking a couple of your kids alone and then the gossip rumor mill starts buzzing that's an intense that's an emotionally intense environment is it not yeah yeah and the word members were amazing I heard a few things through the grapevine from friends but personally I didn't like directly I didn't experience any judgement any gossip any I don't know any it was just they were really great overall so I don't have complaints it's funny you hear all the time the church is perfect the members aren't but the more I go into it the more I'm like I love the member the church is not great you know there's a lot about that system that is harmful the people are good okay generally yeah yeah so what happened well so we had state conference in me I went to girls camp in June and that was like a week of hell because I nobody knew well I didn't know that people knew but some people did know the Sam had left so it's still very much a secret and I go to camp I'm very much in my head it was really hard to be present and be with the girls and then there's all these couples right because there's young women leaders and then their husbands will it be there for priesthood or the bishops come up and they're there with their wives and I just feel like everywhere I looked I saw these eternal happy in the church Mormon couples and I I I'm not really a jealous person or like a envious person but for the first time in my life I was just look at these people and just hate on them that they had what I didn't have anymore and that they were just happy and that was all crushed for me and just salt lost so that was really hard week there was you know you gather at the end for testimony meeting around the fire and there was a young girl who said that we'd gone on a hike and she said I saw this tree that was all bent and twisted at the bottom and it didn't look like a good tree but then I was like my eyes went up the tree I saw it starting up and it became a beautiful tree and she as she shared that I just felt like that's me right now I'm not twisted I'm tree that looks broken I feel broken but this isn't the end of my story and so that was a really comforting moment and then when camp was over they asked the camp leaders to talk in church and I decided that I was going to tell everyone Oh for the pulpit that Sam had loved the church because going to church was tortured and having people make comments like hey we missing Sam around and them not knowing right so when people would say that I would say yeah he actually decided not to come to church anymore I would just tell him because if there's like no point in in hiding things to me at least there's no point in hiding things there's no point rushing under the rug so I would just be open with people but there's this super weird dynamic where they won't come and talk to you directly but they'll say we miss him yes and they probably live like three doors down or across the street but they don't want to talk to you because they don't wanna become infected but they notice you're out there and so there's just this weird like where is he why isn't he here and so you're always having to field questions and you don't know do I be honest and direct or not do I want to tell his secrets or not do I want the ward to know it's a really weird awkward time right well and a lot of people didn't they knew he wasn't there but they thought he was still going to Spanish brunch they didn't even know and so yeah and if they had questions like why I would be like just go talk to Sam yeah you think it's not my job to answer for him it's not my burden but yeah so I got up and I shared this story that this sweet young woman had had shared a testimony meeting and how that I'd met so much to me because Sam had recently decided to leave the church and I felt broken and I felt like we were having to reevaluate our future together and you know you think of going on a mission we're gonna do all these things and so I kind of announced it to the ward that's weird right and later I found out the bishop was like that shocked me and I he said it in a way that I don't think he was pleased that I had done that but because they prefer you just go quietly right yep yeah absolutely yeah well and and it was interesting to there when she told the word oh yeah um frankly I don't remember much of the saccharine sacrament means after that point it was kind of just a haze of anger and pain and confusion like seriously it was just like this emotional potluck of you know health ironically and but but it was interesting at that point the to our church change had been made and yeah that change had been made so you know is that and then it was either Sunday school or young men's and as you know after I got over the initial like well this is crap it was like Sunday school you know I'm just hanging out with the young women who are great in our Ward because I'm so I you know I want to have a good time socially speaking but I'm not there for Sunday school anymore and then in young men's I would actually and this I regret somewhat I think I became pretty like Cavalier and you know maybe not sarcastic but I don't think I hid my lack of seriousness in regard to doctrine very well and I would ask questions like well you know how do you know like that personal revelation is from God like in Sunday school and in other situations and then I get an answer and I wouldn't ever pursue all the way but I know like that's just that's bull you know with all due respect like like in my mind I was like with all this you know emotional stuff going on I'm also like that's just nonsense and frankly you know when you see on a doll in a teaching position you give them authority usually right you think well you know if nothing else you should you should be using your position to try to actually you know be reasonable and encourage reason at least that's what I was taught by my parents and so like getting some nonsensical some obviously nonsensical answer that would have satisfied me months ago but did not anymore that rapidly led to me becoming totally disillusioned and then not touching the church again so another thing it was part of this period at that final state conference that where I was still doing technology hadn't been attending church for a long time so all this is happening in our family the stake president told a story about a I think it was husband whose wife gave him an ultimatum like she was leaving the church and and told him it's me or the church you choose and so had sought counsel and the counsel was you keep your covenants so that's what we're hearing in the context of our new reality and we would have conversations where I would say she would express the idea that I feel like everything's gonna be okay so like still believing we're gonna be together we're gonna be together after this we're gonna be together like I just don't buy all that and I not to be contrary but I would point out that's great like you're making up your own religion that's not what the Church teaches which I was yeah and so we were going through that trauma anything else in that period in the period before you before I let going yeah well I did have a so there was one week that I think was pivotal for me where I my heart had already left like I was talking about and I but I was praying to know if it was okay to leave like I just need to know that it's okay cuz this is really what I want and I I was at school and I went into like the common room I guess and I was microwaving my lunch and one of the I was a second year grad student at this point one of the first years they have to interview the second years to talk about like an ethical dilemma that they have faced mm-hmm and so she just grabbed me and said hey can I interview you pretty quick and I said sure I don't have class for a little bit so we went and she interviewed me about ethical dilemma I had faced and then we got chatting and we're both older like we have we've both had five five kids so we were both a little older in the program we weren't you know like a lot of the younger college kids and we'd both been at BYU at the same years like we just a lot uncommon and so I was like hey just so you're aware like this counseling program can be pretty tough on I'm being LDS and she said oh I left the church I was like what like really so I kind of picked her brain for just a few minutes but it opened my mind to the idea that I could leave the church and be happy and healthy and have a good family like like I could see that she did and so to me I was like oh that's an answer to my prayer I can leave and it'll be fine and then that Sunday we were in church and the stake president came and visited our word and he handed salmon note while he was passing the sacrament that said can I meet with you after so I went and yeah met with him after it was I was supposed to give it to mom she was meeting him not me okay yeah oh yeah yeah sorry I wasn't clear about that okay um so I met with the stake president and he said he felt like he should come to our ward that day and he knows it was for me that God sent him for me and I said okay and I said look can I can I just share something with you like I've been praying to know if it's okay if I leave the church and I met this wonderful girl and then you showed up I feel like I'm getting mixed messages like what are your thoughts and he said it was a really it was a good meeting with him actually I based on other things I'd heard in talks I didn't expect him to be as compassionate and anyway that sounds really bad but but it was a really good meeting and he said maybe Heavenly Father just wants you to have all the information on both sides I was like yeah I think you're right and he said don't take that is I'm giving you permission to leave the church I said well that's not yours to give super honest but yeah that was a pivotal moment where I was like ki maybe gods okay with whatever I do and what I want is to leave but I still went for a couple months after that for the kids I thought no the kids wanted to go and that's going for them it seems like almost a moment you have been packing down your own voice and your own power for so long yeah it almost sounds like a cinematic moment if you're claiming your own voice and power absolutely and I haven't stopped well something that just moves me about the story with you and the other mom of five is like like just consider the difference in terms of like the the freedom of your career mines the freedom of your your morals the freedom of your actions and choices and your very lives like consider the difference in I mean you brought up the word authoritarian and I think that's perfect because you know you're obviously in this transitioning phase in that instance but the very fact that religion was there to make it so that at this point extracting yourself from it is not only painful but also like it becomes so patently obvious like how crippling and again restrictive religion is on the mind and I mean if you don't have mental freedom I if you can't even comprehend the idea that your belief system is flawed or completely wrong then like you know it's hard to imagine what could be more difficult to overcome mentally speaking than that and so that's something that makes me every time you share I think you've I've heard that story before and every time that you share something like that it just makes me it reinforces in my mind how how effective religion is that paralyzing the mind of the people it involves okay so you kept going for a few months yeah and then at Christmas so Christmas 2019 we took a trip to Jackson Hole just for the weekend and we started talking about religion just in general basically we were talking about Islam a lot I think for Muslims and Sam one of the kids that was still going to church with me that I was really thinking he was all in and I needed to keep going for him right I had no clue worked we were discussing religion and how it shifts its standards and I was like wait a minute he's acknowledging this about religion and I think after discussing it more and then come to find out he had read the CES letter and I didn't know that so then I was like I'm not going down like if Sam doesn't want to go I'm done because it was really just and for Emily to but but that was you yeah yeah sorry I went what do you mean you found out over Christmas that Sam Andrews jr. had left had read the CES letter without us knowing what was that like Sam jr. this just shows how immature I was throughout this whole thing I not only had I investigated I had already had my mind made up basically before I read the CES letter but not only had I done that without revealing that because of baseless resentment right it was also true that I never actually convinced myself up like ice it okay let me just not I'm trying not to get ahead of myself um I'd never actually convinced myself of anything any irrationality or any lie in defense of the church meaning that I think and this is something that I didn't realize it until relatively recently is like all of the priming that I think was done in terms of my freedom of thought and my ability to have ideas that were contrary to my belief system like all of that just allowed it so that as soon as the red hot anger and resentment was was done it was like I could not deny any longer that there was no basis for me to believe or act like I believed in the church and so then actually we had some conversations which were always very negative which progressively like it wasn't even me I was never convinced of the arguments I made in favor of the church but it was like me us talking through the process of me realizing well you know it's true because like well if the Book of Mormon is true then the church is true which I think itself is illogical but but even if that were true you know we have conversations and then I think about it you know like maybe I'm raging in the conversation or I'm just like you know being ignorant and stubborn and then I think about it for minutes or hours afterwards and I don't even have to like challenge the idea it's just patently obvious this isn't true so yeah like at the cabin you know that was just me arising from the the bubble of immaturity where I was like you know talk about Islam versus Christianity I think well I said specifically there was like you know a lot of Christian individuals criticize Islam for being like radical on the average and all this stuff and I just pointed out the fact that well you know even if we can say that Islam is like way more radical and Christian done average like well so what in terms of like the doctrine Christianity has in the past been just as bad as Islam has ever been and so then I think you guys hearing like that perspective on religion opened that up but yeah I was it was great immaturity on my part but and hate that event even what was like to read the CES letter it was as a team it wasn't even like the last nail in the coffin it was like the coffin being dropped into the grave I mean it like I looked at and I kind of had the same intuition like you know this is game over the last the last pathetic attempts at resistance will be dead if I read this book and so I just opened it up like late at night and I was like yeah okay cool like I it's over but this is it's nice to know to have some more facts surrounding why the churches a fraud okay so there had been there had still been this wedge in the relationship this division in the family they're still going most of us are not and after that conversation that was like the beginning of things were getting better from here on out so they said oh you're not going if he's if he doesn't need to go you don't need to go is that right yeah yeah and I think a couple weeks I took Emily still by herself which you know sounds harsh but everyone loves her she has so many friends she could sit with and I couldn't do it anymore I I was I mean those seven months I think I would come home crying every Sunday I what was so hard about it it didn't align with my values anymore so I would hear things and I'd be like that was shame inducing or I don't agree with that teaching or that's not true that's not true yeah and I just had I've never had a full-on panic attack cuz I know it's more intense than what I felt but I was having anxiety a pretty extreme where I'd have to get up and leave the chapel I would generally go to sacrament meeting and then I would go and sit in the dark cultural hall and just wait for the kids to be done I couldn't I'd like I'm not really anxious person and I I just couldn't couldn't do it so yeah so I at that point I couldn't even do it to take Emily I just would drop her off but that only happened for a few more weeks and I think her friends like the social aspect of it for her at that point that's what mattered that's what she that was the last thing for her to let go of yeah yeah and I apologize for keeping you going to sacrament meeting it wasn't that I was forced it was that I wanted to do that for my kids it's a mom thing so yeah so at the end of last year you guys are kind of all done yeah you

Channel: Mormon Stories Podcast

Views: 28,566

Rating: 4.483871 out of 5

Keywords: lds, mormon, stories, church, religion, faith, doubt, testimony, excommunication, Idaho

Id: l7BSRgom47U

Length: 98min 22sec (5902 seconds)

Published: Tue Jun 09 2020