hello hello hello welcome to this episode of the caragen show uh a product of the Hagerty podcast uh word that starts dep Department uh apartment today we are talking about a bunch of different things we're going to do a random quiz provided by one of our readers on obscure stuff uh and then we're going to talk about the state of the Manuel Transmission in the United States um by looking at who's actually buying manuals and why they're not and the take rates among various different cars as reported by the manufacturers themselves to somebody else to a third party information we're stealing uh if you like our stuff please consider joining the Hagerty Drivers Club which includes unlimited flat bed toes for all of your classic cars and a subscription to our awardwinning magazine as well as cool things like VIP events access to our valuation tools and discounts on all your favorite [ __ ] from really cool companies and if you like our stuff and the rest of the haery video Department stuff then you can consume it via Samsung on channel 1194 yes all the time 24 hours a day 7 days a week instead of consuming it where you're currently consuming it no no we want them to watch you yeah we don't have watch addition oh an addition yeah leave your TV on in the background it's great okay [Music] bye been out till quarter [Music] would you lock the door will you still me will you still Feed Me When I'm 64 all right something very v80 started yeah oh that is a subar Subaru definitely a Subaru that's quite stock quite stock no depends maybe if sub sounded like that rather than the flatulate blenders that they sound like 718 um right when is the acceptable time to own a four cylinder 718 when the alternative is walking even then walking has health benefits 718 has no benefits to humanity it has Health adverse Health effect it's got a California Proposition 13 or whatever stick 65 65 warning on it this K can cause cancer and bad taste there's no reason why this car should exist uh okay I have a laptop open you have things we should probably explain what's going on we finally lost it that's been a long time in the making you mean completed long ago yes we should use the past tense not the progressive okay why do you have cards uh they were gifted to us around the time of Christmas and um we sort of just became aware of them yeah I was clearing out boxes and that fell out and I'm like oh what the [ __ ] is this I mean we have plenty of gifts from readers like the kagin show logo over here which I love you can do many things with the Carmon show but read it is not one of them unless you're reading the comments listeners Watchers car show readers maybe he's reading the transcript do you know what okay tell them what we just did we just had a nap sorry lunch nap Genesis Napo Genesis Napo we just had lunch and uh that means we're both goofy goofy and sugar high potentially mentally deranged okay so the first card says the cards are oh okay the cards are a gift from a caragan watcher or listener or reader or victim caragan victim um who lives in Canadia who lives in Canadia and is responsible for the presence of the Rover ST1 in our life and for probably at least a half a pound on me caloric input sent uh coffee crisps [ __ ] and also Cookie Crisp is the uh the Bandit dog cereal I don't remember the bag Bandit dog but I was not allowed to eat sugary cereal growing up I wouldn't know I was given free rain with the idea that I would Tire myself out on it and one of us is fat and the other one is not so who mom's worked better you just let children I mean it was just like my friends all loved coming to my house because it was just candy and soda and and whatever you could imagine was just freely available and so all the other kids went batshit insane when they came over I was sort it was non not of interest to me because it was not scarce the [ __ ] up thing is like my my mom I agree with most of her decisions like now in retrospect as a parent like I I totally understand what she was thinking and why there was we could have like free discussions about sex and like drugs like I could ask her like what's LSD like and she would tell me like just like oh you wouldn't like it so much cuz this whatever you know like Mom what should I do Coke no you would hate it you know what it feels like go drink three pots of coffee like and then come back and tell me how much you like it you're much more of like a downer kind of guy she would give me that kind of like real advice which took the sting out of drug use like I never did any drugs because I didn't need to I wasn't curious about it um never drank never did anything however I wasn't allowed to eat anything that was good except I mean like my mom's a great cook but like everything we ate was like fresh and she homemade and there was no like SpaghettiOs processed anything or never and the joke is that now as an adult she's like there was ice cream in the house but I hid it from you guys like I I would go get it after you were sleeping and then go eat the [ __ ] pint before you got up in the morning because that a pint is one serving of ice cream but we didn't know any better like we were just like oh my God I'm hungry and my mom's like get I have an apple it was like fruits vegetables that's it my sister is and I I'm she's going to kill me for even saying this we are both we have both have the slowest metabolisms known to man we are both constantly fighting being 400 lb and you ate all your all your got it all out of your system as a kid mhm and are thin yeah I never drink soda because it was always widely available soda wasn't I Sunday one half of one glass diluted 50/50 with whatever I wanted that was it it was could it be more soda no the choices were milk to make it disgusting and unpalatable uh or tap water or fizzy water like Seltzer that was it but no desserts maybe on a Sunday like at my grandmother's house she would go like Bakery and buy like a little box of Italian cookies but no dessert consisted of why didn't you eat more for dinner have some salad but like and every meal was like a salad a vegetable and a and aat like a protein a starch or whatever very very like regimented regimented really good [ __ ] restricted and by the time I was 15 I was overweight and then I went to and like man I packed it on yeah because you were uh crazy I what is this Twix thing yeah Snickers it's amazing I mean I smoked two packs of cigarettes and ate nothing but like [ __ ] from my first year college and I gained a freshman 40 and then lost it all and then quit smoking how many years later put on 42 pounds in five weeks that's my crowning achievement wow that was a lot and then lost it all and then this past year gained it all back somehow um anyway um um that this topic why did we start talking coffee crisps coffee crisps right which is the I won't have a candy bar like the joke is I got that all my system you would look at me and think I'm the one that ate constantly he eats non-stop quote I have to be fed every 20 minutes or he like passes out meanwhile I could eat once a day I'll have a salad and I'm put on six more pounds [ __ ] you salad weight salad okay so it's the fried chicken sandwich that's that's going together inside of the that has ground up and used as salad dressing um the cards are currently face down dish them out UNO style each contains a question some have ABC D two some two are true false and a few are Jeopardy style good luck okay so we have some of these we can maybe do some or all of them to be very clear we have not looked through this we have not looked them have no idea what any of them I saw the cover letter and I just put it away and I'm like I'm just going to give this today likewise I've not I've not seen this but we also were supposed to have an episode topic for today too would you like to do that before we do this or do you want to do this in or it oh oh well [ __ ] it let's see how long this takes we don't know how long this going to take this could be a whole episode this could be great or in so Uno style is 11111 yes how many questions are there four five six sorry for everyone at home seven eight looks to be about 20 Questions n 10 who's what would you just gave yourself two did I you want another extra here you go I don't know we're going to count when we're done uh in the meantime so the other topic we're going to talk about is a manual transmissions with which I think that you know hold on two three four five oh I see and we ask them of the other person eight nine I have nine questions and you probably have 11 what is that what's blank this is blank um should we be Jake are you going to keep track of who gets what okay Jake says he's going to be seven eight okay I have eight here I have a blank one okay whatever so we'll have one as a tiebreaker how about that okay High breaker question is right here all right go oh this is appropriate what was the first card Road card to be fitted with a six-speed manual transmission here's your choices oh uh hongi ca72 Toyota 1600 GT Bajaj Tempo Matador f307 alfha Romeo 33 stradale did the 33 have a six speed I'm going to say it's the most likely one but it's too early to have a six speeed yes Alpha 33 just because that sounds more fun get the [ __ ] out did you know that no oh my God he got both of us this kid's good okay me next true false the original smart 42 has a split folding rear boot is that a true or false I that's what happens when I say true or false and then make did you say true or false true or false the original smart 42 has a split folding rear boot I think it does yes true yeah Between 1979 and 1983 this Western manufacturer exported roughly 5,500 cars to East Germany Western manufacturer to East Germany 5,500 is not that many cars but Western manufacture that could sell that many cars in East Germany East Germany is not that big and people weren't that moneyed yeah so it's obviously not going to be Rolls-Royce cuz rollsroyce made they probably didn't make 5,500 cars for the world oh no they didn't make 500 for the car for the world at that point um 79 and 83 so fouryear period Fiat good guess because they did wind up with L and whatever else okay yeah yeah no it is um do you want a hint or you want me to just divulge uh it is a the the car has four horizontally opposed cylinders Alpha suit oh also a good guess and is French 1979 to 83 4cylinder horizontally opposed what the [ __ ] French car company made a flat C GS the GS was a flat 4 when it wasn't a rotary the melus RS logo holds the distinction of being the only communist sports car where was it manufactured a Beijing uh B B Kingsburg C dden or D East Berlin or Berlin as the Germans would say oin uh I have no idea I'm completely stumped this was the point this kid's mean I know a he gives Coffee Crisp B he made me bu he also asked us some absurdly obscure question yes live that stumped us yes the Asuna Sunfire that was the answer I don't remember the question yeah I don't remember either it was a rebadge of something yes from GM so what's the answer uh C dden Dresden which is where the um Volkswagen F Factory Glass Factory with the hardwood floors how do you know they were hard maybe it just early in the morning soft wood morning morning Oak yes okay North Korea often makes copies of cars for more I might actually know this one uh more established manufacturers uh the more famous example is the Kang sang 88 what is this a copy of BMW X5 uh my guess is the Audi C3 Mercedes w21 we are both wrong we have to look this up I've seen pictures of this thing it looks like a 2011 but the face is deformed okay true false the first car on Antarctica was a Volkswagen Beetle false correct do you know what it was no but I'm going to guess it was in the 1930s it was in 1908 although the car it's the way he phrased it it was the of 1908 so the car would appear to have been in 1908 and then there's a sort of slightly correction his handwriting is not exactly perfect so it's an arola Johnston or just an Ariel John okay nipple car got it uh which car manufacturer collaborated with NGK to engineer the first ceramic turbocharger NGK so my guess is it wasn't you have four choices sorry yeah definitely what so let's let's hear the four choices Mitsubishi Nissan Isuzu or dhatu Mitsubishi Nissan she uses ihi for it's a fair lady Z from 1985 you know I don't do turbos um what year did the mandate for the 5 mph bumper impact absorbing bumper go into effect this is tough cuz it was sort of progressive but I would say 1974 he says 1973 yes because the E type did get in the front in 73 yeah 73 is Right stand by 7 well no no Porsche did that too with the rubber over Riders on 73 911s okay I will accept that okay because it is doubtless right um this first generation Ford Model was sold in Korea as the Kia pride in Australia and Europe as the Mazda 121 and was sold by other manufacturers as the saipa and guangong what was it sold as in North America Spire close same car but one generation earlier oh then it was a Festiva yes not a fiesta yes so one is isn't Festiva the past participle of fiesta forever which would be in retrospect Festiva back then right oh my God this is a whole uh entire paragraph I come from Japan my design was inspired by a lancha concept by jaro some consider me the first quote minivan because of my layout and dual sliding doors I can seat between five eight passengers depending on seed and configuration my CD is 0.40 I first entered production in 1982 but didn't come to North America until the mid1 1980s what car am I and don't say my vanina my vanina your vanina um I'm going to guess this is like the cult Vista Mitsubishi box thing that they did in the 80s no Nissan stands a wagon multi Prairie oh that's like uh the same genre of car close yeah okay different different car which manufacturer first put a five valve head on a production car Ferrari Bugatti Mitsubishi Mitsubishi or Scot is definitely Mitsubishi they had a patent on it in fact and Bugatti paid Mitsubishi a patent E1 Mitsubishi minika danan zed z z z which means five vales per cylinder in Japanese uh this manufacturer was caught cheating in the 1995 WRC ouch I'll repeat it again this manufacturer was caught cheating in the 1995 World Rally Championship uh citran I mean those [ __ ] French but no it's Japanese so it has to be Toyota or Mitsubishi yeah it does Mitsubishi no [ __ ] uh 50-50 shot you still [ __ ] it up Toyota with the St 205 Celica GT4 okay this Japanese Ann auto manufacturer developed and tested a vehicle with a ceramic diesel engine in 1982 do I is it a four like ABCD nope okay 1982 ceramic diesel what does that even mean the block is made out of ceramic instead of instead of I've never heard of an internal combustion engine being made of Ceramics I mean you can make Ceramics really really tough I mean Bears yeah I know that they're up to it I just didn't know that anyone ever made an engine block Nei I mean somebody tried to do one out of plastic it was like a it was a thing I remember it somewhere some of my research I don't remember somebody tried to do it anyway um I'm going to call this this sounds too crazy for Toyota um it sounds diesel everyone made a diesel though I mean it wasn't going to be Maz Mazda because Mazda was too busy fussing around with rotaries um I'm gonna I'm going to I'm actually developed and tested not production yeah but who was who had money to do that 1982 who had money to hire geeto jaro to do anything Isuzu get out yeah wow okay right that's interesting uh which manufacturer first feature direct coil pack ignition on a production car is it Honda is it Buick is it Audi or is it Nissan by the way we haven't fact checked any of this we're just taking the word for by some diabetes causing Canadian who forced us to buy a Rover and forced you to sell your share out to me so I'm now a single parent of a Rover sd1 it's very confused the [ __ ] am I going to do with this car developmentally bereft which manufacturer stalling I have no idea direct coil packing addition in a production car Honda Buick Audi Nissan Nissan Nissan Nissan direct injection system or ndis okay good good guess approximately how many fa beetles were made between 1938 and 2003 so this is the first generation Beetle 21.7 million I don't know are you uh your choices are 20.2 22.6 21 a half or 19.8 those are tightly clust 2 and a half correct and this one what did I say 217 yeah I knew it was somewhere God last one Lancia otherwise known as lancha was the first manufacturer to feature twin charging sorry Lan was the first manufacturer to fissure to feature twin charging on an engine who was the second is it Nissan is it sabab is it Aston Martin or is it opal Aston Martin Aston Martin never did that they twin supercharged a car but they never twin charged a car so it's not Aston Martin what are the other choices opal op pole pole yeah pole means notot in German that's me Opel did actually consider a twin charged engine for the um Omega the Carlton huh there you go uh but I'm not telling you that's the answer um one of the one of the other potentials is Saab did Saab ever twin charge anything is this for production applications I mean is it specif probably probably production what are the other choices Saab so it's opal Aston Martin SA or Nissan Nissan yeah the March super turbo there you go what's the scores that tied it up oh [ __ ] and that was the tiebreaker I think uh yeah I think oops all right well we're tied unless you wanted to demerit one point for Derek because he tried to guess on that one and also got it wrong oh yeah had you kept your [ __ ] mouth shut so uh Jake if you guys couldn't hear that said Dem Merit for guessing for guessing and still getting it wrong or with a hint those are good questions I'm audience will fact check it um right yeah so maybe one of us actually did win um and we just don't know but as as it stands right now we are both equally chromogen Le and dumb um okay so the actual topic of this episode we are 22 minutes in uh that was that was a good 20 I think we should I have a card game called carology didn't we play this on the train uh at some point 200 years ago March of uh or February of 2020 first yeah lockdown right before lockdown yeah yeah that's that was crazy it's it's obscure [ __ ] but we could possibly do a trivia show occasionally or just you know a couple couple um cards anyway um so the actual topic that we're going to talk about is that of the manual transmission um and not the sort of normal like and the manual is going away but uh a little bit we could do that too we can we're going I'm just trying to inev right um but I guess my question is more why is it going away and then the first thing to to look at is let's examine those cars that are still available with a manual transmission and in the united states in United States which is a unique Market yeah uh for sure nobody else wants them anymore except us um so motor one to their credit actually asked every manufacturer who sells manual transmission cars in the US what the take rate was and most responded um and so I'm just going to go down the list and I think it's it's it's great talking points okay um so uh this is an alphabetic order uh Acura Acura makes an Integra um and then there are two of them um obviously there's the asec which is the Civic SI and then the type S which is the Civic Type R um they SOC asec aec a speec yes as opposed to a secretary which is a typer um see Type R as a anyway um 32,990 Integra sold in 2023 um with was the total what do you think the take rate was is this for both variant for both yeah I mean um there's some interesting thing the the type R is of course or the type S the cfic type R uh is manual only so that yeah I wish this would have they would have broken them up yeah that would be helpful uh 43% no uh no way 22 um so the interesting thing on this was that the I would yeah I would love to know what percentage of the production was the uh Civic Type R well to me I think actually 22% is really high um and there's there's a reason why first of all the original uh take rate for the pre-order cars when when the Integra first came out which manual only was 7 uh was earlier on there were 70% manual that's me not at all no exactly but 22 doesn't surprise me and we'll get to Civic later uh because you can only get the manual on on I think it's just the base model um ah um no no I'm sorry it's not available on the base model it's only available on the top spec which is $37,000 38 plus delivery uh okay MBM so BMW they have they've talked about both M2 M3 M4 um but let's talk M2 first so M2 is available with a dual clutch or a manual it's ostensibly a compact rear wheeel drive to plus two thing it is the size of a Buick Grand Wagoner or something I don't know it's enormous Grand wagon here um it's the size of a 1990s full siiz pickup truck um 39% manual 50 um and this is one of the things that are is really you're going to see a couple cars like this that are really tough to digest what we've been saying to car companies we as in uh enthusiastic uh manual transmission fan journalists have been saying to product planners for years is if you build the right car with a manual people will really buy it um and a 50% take rate is pretty incredible considering that in the case of the M2 the manual doesn't work nearly as well with the car as uh as an automatic does um the the the Dual clutch has much shorter gear ratios for reasons we'll talk about later much tighter closely spaced gear ratios it's a turbocharged car turbos always do better with automatics because they can shift so quickly that they don't lose boost off uh they don't drop boost between shifts so like there's just the recipe is there to go with the automatic on that car um I would obviously still buy the manual and so would 50% of people um and then you have a car that's effectively mechanical ENT mechanically identical which is M3 M4 um and so my question is I think the take rate will be lower in that car why is that um it's just instinctive to me I don't know why why let's see do I have a why for that I just think it's lower I think that the the it's a different buyer I think about the type of person who's attracted to the concept of the two series from from the person who would be they're less status oriented in my eyes and I don't know why that is I just feel that way so M3 buyers are dick bags is what you're saying yeah they're more status Orient yeah that's what I said I said what I said uh yeah I mean I don't think you're going to have you're going to find too many people who are are statusa who are buying m2s yeah it's it's a little bit frumpy looking it's a little wacky it's kind of the distant descendant of like the Clown Shoe thing like that's weird kind of cool but weird weird you know it's not mainstream there's something more mainstream about the M3 it's more beautiful it's sort of assertive and sort of exotically proportioned or beautifully proportioned M3 other than the stupid [ __ ] Grill um also M4 I think is horrible yeah I mean I agree I'm not and Grill aside I mean I think M3 three series current 3 Series is a really goodlooking car with great proportions face butter face and then the M4 is just a um discordant non-cohesive smattering of shitty styling cues that don't ever don't speak to each other side of it looks like a Pacific an ACC cord Coupe from 10 years ago the car just doesn't have any presence but um certainly not any coherent presence right before I even tell you what the number is let's this is an argument that I used to have with BMW's product planners often when you start to make cars that are enormous people stop buying manuals and so when we look at things like this current 3 Series it is larger inside than um an 1980 7 Series and so there are a bunch of different ways you can measure the size of a car you can talk about its weight you can talk about it length you can talk about width wheelbase all those other stuff so its wheelbase is as long as a S series was um its interior volume is as long as is as large as a S series was but it more importantly I think large cars tend to be very very isolated from the engine from noise vibration and just the feeling that these cars are running this was a problem that you had with the golf your GTI you would stall it because you thought you were thought was engine was off off and you go to get out of it and it's still in first and cuz you can't even feel the thing running yes the more large and isolated the cars are um the the less likely people are to buy a manual the the longer Dash to axle I think is also a big feature three series now are so big that you have to do a ballet stretch to to press the clutch all the way down it's actually not a comfortable manual transmission car to drive and this has been the case since really E90 it was just too far of a reach um but we're just so far beyond that to me that these cars just don't belong as manuals and back then you could get a 735i automat uh manual yes and you know how many people did six two if I remember correctly it was two and one of them was start talkinging about e23 or e32 e32 uh one of my friends in elementary school's mom had one a blackon black 735 stick shift you're kidding that might be the only one no there's a gray one that I tried to buy also locally okay two those are the two are it might be the only two ever I remember them being able be telling me no and then there was a gray one that your friend Mike had that he was selling as well different gray one than the gray one that I was thinking about I mean points being the take rate was very low was effectively zero right and that killed the idea of a manual transmission so I would always use that as an example once the car is so big nobody wanted a manual S-Class you you bought a manual S-Class in Europe because you didn't want to pay for the automatic or the fuel that it used you didn't buy it because oh it's fun to drive you know a manual S-Class of course we like it because it's yeah um so you're right the M3 M4 manual take rate is 20% Which is far less than half of what the m2s is um proving the point the the same car it's the same everything um but the smaller car wins uh the Blackwing Cadillac did not disclose Camaro did not disclose Challenger did not disclose must Challenger the manual I'm allegedly I'm sure Dodge declined to tell anyone because they don't want anyone to know how low it was it's embarrassing it was probably single digits hold on I mean single digit sales I don't mean percentage oh like I mean one a month maybe Ford failed to disclose but the um when the new Mustang dropped 27% of the orders were for the six speed um that tracks um I'm guessing if you look at something like Dark Horse um some or GT performance sort of e kind of models you'll see way higher than that but there's a four cylinder yes the only people who buy manuals now are enthusiasts so if it's an Enthusiast car you could expect to see manuals yeah the sort of college professor wearing Tweed who wanted the manual Nissan stanza is now dead and also not buying cars um Civ by virtue of deadness Yeah by this non non- livingness Civic manual all flavor all flavors so SI and type R are manual only but you can get a manual in sport and Sport Touring really and I would to answer this question properly I want to know what proportion of total Civic sales are SI and type R I have to imagine that the 200,000 Civic sold last year I'm guessing their proportion is a couple percent at best I mean um what is total Civic Type R sales 3,345 what about s so that's 1.7% of of production is Civic Type R SI sales are 7128 um so the total of 7,000 so those cars together represent 10,000 out of 200,000 yep so uh half a percent no 5% five I'm good at math just not at decimals okay yeah 5% I think so 5% of the Civics were definitely manual okay so I think the number is like 7% you're dead you're dead right okay which is a lot of manuals actually if you're talking about like in in absolute terms lot cars yes compared to so that is that is roughly 15,000 car no okay I'm bad at math and at decimal I don't know is it 14,000 cars which means that of the of all of the 180,000 non SI SL Type R trims of Civic they only sold 2,000 manuals that's uh three or 4,000 yeah yeah not a lot of cars so you can see why why would Honda there's no reason for Honda to even make that car I mean the joke is when a Civic sport is twice as rare as a Civic SI like with a manual with a manual yeah you just don't they're not going to do it again because no one's and is this a is this is a reflection of the market and not production strategy look it's probably both right they first of all there are disadvantages to car companies for selling manuals in a lot of countries um because they don't achieve the CO2 numbers or the fuel economy numbers that the automatics do because there's fewer ratios and they're more widely sprays and they can cheat on the tests that's the bigger issue is that you can you can cheat on drive by noise tests by refus to downi yeah to gear the automatic too so they can gear the automatic differently than the manual and then they can use strategies that op strategies that optimize fuel economy on when the cars know they're being driven on the on the cycle and this is not dieselgate this is a different thing right but under these parameters same technique it's not because they're the same in the real world right the idea is that in the I guess in the same but you just said when the cars know that they're being tested yeah but they they're they could be tested on the road so for example there are cars like you get into a Nissan GTR or a 5.6 liter Nissan at 28 miles hour you floor it you're not getting a downshift for a couple seconds um and that's to get through the the acoustic box meas drive by noise and that's it functions the same way in the real world as it does in on a testing cycle it just happens to be that you hit those parameters there are times Scion and Toyota was really obvious when they were doing this stuff you would be driving and you in a manual and you would lift off the throttle and you had no engine braking at all and you could literally Slide the the gear out of the the lever out of gear and it would still hold those revs and go right back in and out and in and out and what was was the engine computer matching exactly matching zero load effectively holding the engine there because that was a better for emissions and B better for fuel economy because if you're not slowing down you take your foot off the gas you have to speed back up so it was better for the car to not slow down on the test so therefore the the cars do it in the in the real world these are tricks that are much easier to play on automatics than they are to play on manuals um but you know Toyota didn't cover them up as well and you can see them um so there are benefits of that there also benefits from the dealer level cuz remember we're not the customers dealers are the customers and so the dealers will order the cars that they think they can sell more quickly well if Honda sold 12,000 special Civics last year and 188,000 regular Civics what do you think the dealers is going to buy aside from the fact that these [ __ ] charge $20,000 in markups on Civic types R type RS but um otherwise the the quick sale the quick and easy sale and the uneducated customer who's going to come in and say I need a car and I can pay $900 month what he got and they put him in a Bas Civic um that's what they want so they're just going to buy the automatic they're not going to even stock the manuals yeah um so yeah but I find it amazing that 7% I mean that's a lot of manuals for a car that's the size of a seven series it's another one the Civic is huge yeah it's not a small car yeah um I mean I'm fine with it with a manual because you can actually feel and hear the motor is it's dynamically kind of small feeling anyway even if it's physically not yeah that one works Hyundai uh Elantra n you've driven Elantra and and I have not Oh I thought you were there for that drag race we did um veloc and and Elantra and are interesting velocir n was an absolute highlight of the last 10 years one of the best hot hatches ever made um to look at but didn't matter I would still own one the Elantra n is even worse looking anantra n raises the bar um and actually is far less interesting to drive as far as I'm concerned doesn't doesn't have any of the pops and bangs that got people arrested and they're [ __ ] not yes not arrested but yes pulled over and ticketed and cars impounded and like right um so it kind of sounds like a vacuum cleaner and God is it ugly but I think the take rate there is 20% it's 25 um and I think that the I've never seen an on the road I think it's 25% of four so they sold one car I don't I don't I mean maybe other parts around the country you guys can chime in if if you see a launcher ends but I've I've seen one in my life and it was the one that we car Jeep said [ __ ] off Kia Forte um which is by the way quite ironic at the top of the lineup it's the the most expensive one where you know we just mentioned the Tweety Professor with a cap on would always buy the cheapest Nissan stanza with the manual the four-speed manual instead of the five because it was $9,990 the Forte I'm going to guess it's 3% it is 2% huh um yeah which is interesting it's one of the few cars that you don't think about but Ma is quicker looking um but you know guess if you want yeah if you want a manual Runabout you could have a GF Forte or a used I don't know Fiesta ST fiestast fiestast it's not a sedan but yes I would I would obviously have one okay interesting one coming up Mazda MX5 Miata 71% you are wrong okay do you think it's higher or do you lower well I thought it was exactly that which is why I said it it's only 60% and I find that really upsetting huh I mean I that's the highest number we've seen so far to be fair I want to know GT3 and we're not there we're not at P yet but um I'm guessing it should be higher than 60% um there are other cars now you see why it's available as an automatic yeah um so 5,834 um MX5 were manual which is not good I think small sales volume it's a tiny sales volume um what did they sell initially they sold in much larger numbers initially when the when the MX5 first came out in 199 you look at they were I mean they were six figures for the first year or three if I remember correctly they sold a [ __ ] ton of them uh and it justed yeah it plummeted I mean no one we've talked about why that is though nobody has the discretionary income to buy a cheap the least expens of dedicated sports car you can y uh okay so next up is mini and this one's really interesting so it's divided they motor one has it divided into in three different things I'm going to start with the least uh enthusiastic of all the cars um so not John Cooper Works not Cooper S but all other models of mini 5% that would be a huge number number cuz that would be two and a half times the kiaforte number and what three times what uh Honda non Civic SI like Honda Civic nonsi type um but it's 11% really which is [ __ ] massive wow right I mean one more than one out of 10 people bought a manual in this day and age and that's on like a sort of non sporty yeah and I believe that also includes countrymen that might be everybody oh which is like the four-door SUV that's as many skin wearing Cooper and Cooper S and a convertible no no no no there's no I don't I don't know how they have this this might just be Cooper this might be non non- Countryman because I think the Countryman Manual's dead um but now the countryman's dead but anyway um 11% is a massive number but if you look around you walk around San Francisco San Francisco is kind of a hub for mini sales yeah um you know you need a small parking spot and they're premium and people have money and they drive up steep driveways and they have very short overhangs and um but you drive around and you look at cars parked on the street here and you see a lot of manuals which is really nice kind of refreshing um but 11% overall okay Cooper S 35% 22 I mean you were you were on the right track right Enthusiast it's the fast one sure 22% now John Cooper Works to is that available both ways yes uh well otherwise it would be included be 100 would be 100% yes um 51% yeah that's exactly what it is that's [ __ ] scary do there something like reflection me can you see my screen you freak 51 51% okay yeah JCW is 51% and I'm actually surprised it's uh not higher well I didn't even I didn't even know you could get that car as a manual the only the JCW I drove was an automatic and it's a torque converter automatic and there was no other choice and the car is a riot but I don't know how I be an interesting corner of Automotive enthusiasm currently available uh anyone from BMW if you're currently listening please send us a JCW manual but they did say it was um uh mini is a they they did say that they suspect that the take rate had jumped or was that high because they had announced discontinuation um but I wonder what it was the year before for H um Nissan declined to comment on Z but again turbo I that's a car that should should be uh almost all manuals but turbo I think it's plus or minus 10% from 50 yeah probably 718 and 911 all combined on percentage of models where a manual is offered and this is does that include GT cars I believe so yes EG useless that resolution of data is too low to be useful I well I would also like to know what percentage of the cars they sell are GT cars versus not probably not what's the number of volume of closed cars that is the to the denominator uh 911 total sales USA 2023 let me let's look so Porsche sold a total of 11,7 911s what about 718 and then 718s 4500 [ __ ] nothing 4500 would you buy that 4cylinder piece of [ __ ] well well they that includes GT4 right yeah so they sold a total 15,000 car you you do know that Porsche cannot sell non-gt versions of yeah yeah okay so then that and I think I I know that when the 991 came out the take rate was like 65 or 70% stick shift GT3 the 2.2 uh and I'm going to assume that 50% of what they sell is GT cars so that's 7500 cars I think that the take rate is 47% no I thing it's lower yeah I can't see how many GT cars they delivered that would be the low 40s 40 which is which is pretty good my guess is the G GT3 for example on the GT GT3 take R naturally aspirated cars are probably 60 to 80% depending on the car um yeah the more like I can't imagine why you would buy a Cayman like a Cayman I guess RS is only um like a GT4 manual uh why would you buy a GT4 automatic just pdk cut yourself and buy a four-cylinder at that point because you don't know what you're doing um or you want a GT4 RS and can't afford it and you're going to the track who do you think you are like why do you need automatic on track all right because you're too busy trying to keep the car shiny side up to worry about adding gear changes mix we buy a Miata learn how to drive the thing and then come back to Porsche once you can figure that out that's the right answer but that's not but that's not what they're going to do I know if only what I just said what video was it that we decided that uh all all GT3 should was it gt3s should come with a u a Miata to learn how to drive on that's a good idea2 cards okay Subaru Subaru regular empreza and cross Trek manual take R that's a thing yeah those are the ones that win traffic like when you see a Subaru and it's actually keeping up and not like mooing its way up to 41 miles hour in the left lane that's a manual that's how you can tell 4% H 1.6 yeah I know no one really wants those things however WRX which is the same card just with yeah I think it's 36% 74 manual 74% manual no way way and that's because and there's no STI uh not since I took that doxy cycan oh your ex yeah yes correct um yeah WX is 74 so is that the highest number on the board that we've seen because VW I'm not we're not going to discuss this but yeah 74% three quers of WX buyers are buying a WRX and as it turns out well the rest anyone who's buying a [ __ ] CVT WRX is not buying a WRX oh the alternative is a CVT yeah somehow I've just gotten a WhatsApp message uh despite the fact that it's very obvious thanks to that little Moon thing that my phone is on do not disturb excellent Apple when I say do not disturb I mean it um Dungeons and Dragons or do disturb yeah uh yes uh so yeah the alternative is a CVT so 25 out of four Subaru WX buyers is a [ __ ] idiot or or paraplegic in one on the left leg uh BRZ um 69% 79% huh which means four out of five BRZ buyers is a hero and the fifth one is buying the car for the wrong reason monopedal dead inside has a amputation yes it's an amput there uh yeah I mean admittedly I'm going to turn this down so we stop hearing my WhatsApp going off uh admittedly um the BRZ with an automatic is not fully auto tragic but it's also kind of missing the point now I guess if you really sat in traffic all day every day you'd buy a different car yeah but not everyone has the opportunity to have multiple cars I you know okay you know like I want them to have a BRZ and so okay I guess if you have to I just think like don't give me this [ __ ] that you're like I'm 25 years old and I have like a commute so I just want to sit in traffic and then you go to the gym and do leg like leggy pushy things [ __ ] off just drive a goddamn manual that's what I did and look at the size of your left leg um that's my favorite thing about the lm2 episode was the Photoshop I did of Tina Turner's left leg did you see that m i did yeah the Lamborghini l2's clutch is like insane and so I had to uh and Tina Turner had her lm2 converted to an automatic so because I I don't think she could drive stick but I couldn't clear that up so I made it vague in the video um but I just thought it would be very funny that she who had the most admired legs in the world in the 1980s would have been rather lopsided if she if she had uh driven an elmo2 every day okay Toyota has three models with a manual first one where it's man where it's opal as opposed to mandatory right it's mandatory on the three-cylinder cars G Corolla yes um um Toyota tooma manual uh 3% 1.4 okay not bad I mean they sell a lot of Tacomas right yeah um yeah they sell 234,50 168 Tacomas last year so 3287 manuals which is not a lot just 1.4 that's not a got okay not a lot um but but it did justify carrying it through forward till 2024 okay next one gr Supra all I think it's 39% it's 43 um and I think the super manual is a better car than it's a better manual than any other BMW manuals to to ask them to do some make some changes to the linkage um and it's okay but I just don't think that car works and that engine works particularly well with a with a manual it's a really really laggy engine and you don't notice that with the automatic because it's always playing tricks like slipping the torque converter and whatever else to mass there's more ratios yeah really short really short really close ratios um so that's pretty good considering I don't think it actually works all that well again you know same with M2 which is 50% um gr86 which is that going to be different from the BRZ very as it turns out what this has always happened m so BRZ was 79% gr86 is 59% 48 oh what intarnation so it's like a pragmatic thing where you're like I'm buying a Toyota it's a practical sports car as opposed to I'm buying a Subaru it's an Enthusiast car I don't understand that this I don't understand what the [ __ ] is happening because this happened with first gen BRZ when it first came out with can versus Canan FR FRS I remember talking to um more automatic Scions yeah they were like the the BRZ was like 91 I feel like 91% manual at some point and the Toyota was like half and the only explanation that we could come up with because there's no pricing differences or incentive otherwise the brand idty the dealers dealers ordering the dealers Toyota dealers were just used to ordering automatics and they would just order all the automatics and so if you found one on a lot because I don't think anyone really gave a [ __ ] about whether oh I'm buying a Scion or I'm buying you know I feel like if you were like I'm choosing a Toyota sports car you're a slightly more more sort of pragmatic and less enthusiastic minded person than a Subaru which has a sort of strong Enthusiast identity because of their part participation in World Rally I I don't know I'm just do you really think anyone who's buying a BRZ j86 doesn't know that it's the same exact car at both dealerships I don't know honey look at that thing it's cute yeah while they're in the I think that I think that happens but I'm guessing that's a very small like single digit percentage of buyers for both on both sides I think that car is very specific targeted audience who really knows what they're doing um and I always found that so interesting that they could be so different I think to me the well that's why they made two versions of the same car apparently because they are attracting different people they made two versions of the same car because the Japanese government told them they had to that was one of the sort of joint venture joint venture things mandated by the government to help both companies out when they were not doing well but um but I think I I would make the decision based on which dealer was close to me not and Who's got what in stock and frankly if the Subaru dealers got a manual in stock uh going I'm going there but if if they don't they can't find anything and the Canan dealership has one I'll buy one so I don't know um that I found very interesting Volkswagen okay so do they pull the GTI or the G TI is the only manual no jeda jeda base B but there's no golf manual there's no golf golf is dead there's no golf manual correct or no golf automatic all right so we have Jetta Bas so Bas Jetta and Jetta sport um which are is not GLI but base Jetta it has a manual transmission available and how many percentage of people bought it three five which is not bad again not bad for a massive car but German car enthusiasts tend to be or even just German in the US certainly yeah um all right GLI um 23% 40 oh G is a healthy manual buyer okay which is good that's another one where that that manual is kneecapped with a 74 mph second gear where the DSG is like a 55 mph second gear it's so much slower um and it's just a big ropey not great manual and yeah 40% of people go for it well there's so few choices left that if you want a German manual car and you can't afford por you you know or BMW then you there you go right those are your three choices for German manual cars BMW VW or Porsche just depends on how many dollars you have to spend yeah it's true sad uh but GTI which is effectively mechanically identical to jeda GI just shorter wheel base and a different form factor is it much different yes or no find out now I think it is higher but not that high so I guess we'll call it 46% 50 uh and it's always been 50 that's the interesting thing is that from the day that DSG became available on the GTI it has always been 50% and it never changed it dropped a little bit on Mark 7 I want to say early on in Mark 7 and they were like it's the end of the manual and then it picked right back up and it was it's just been 50% across the board but they're [ __ ] canning it right they are now and that's no manual GTI no manual GTI even though the take rate is 50% katoo what the hell katoo is very simple and easy to explain we no longer have a plant in North America that builds Gulf we did we had we had preo Mexico which built all of the last generation golfs that is no longer building golf so all of the golfs are coming from Germany which means I.E GTI which means they're expensive to build and they have expensive to ship and they don't have the tax and import Duty benefit from coming within NAA exactly and then you look at the total sales numbers what did they tell did they even say how many sales there were last year um you can Google it Volkswagen probably sold 10 GTI last year 2023 GTI sales USA seven The Grand Tour the grand okay I know we're looking at a motor one thing and so I'm appreciative to the motor one guys for for compiling this list thus making this episode much easier for us um but they referred to it in a different article as The Grand Tour injection saw a sales jump to 6 point what it's a [ __ ] GTI no one's calling it by its formal Christian name um unless it's in trouble because it's being discontinued responding to that uh 7,400 74 7400 yeah and what was it in like and by the way Golf R was 3,200 and that golfar is a profit cow I'm sure well was until except that it was built in Germany uh and if we go back to say 2019 Peak Mark sing time or something like that what was the volume of cars then not 7,400 it was probably 10,000 that few yeah uh 2019 was 116 oh uh 2018 was 16 2020 was so I mean here we go this is good car bad car or one of these sides um yeah VW going backwards 20 oh this is not in chronological order um Golf GTI USA starting in 2023 and then going backwards 7451 6203 not a full model year yeah 2022 2021 6183 2020 8697 uh 2019 11672 2018 16684 2017 22,000 86 and3 well not really so if you look at so 2014 you had 2,000 units that was the Mark 6 was dead at that point 2015 3700 dead again Mark 6 was well Mark 7 was just coming online well right and then 2016 became 13,000 then 22 then 17 12 9 so the First full year that it was available when it was still fresh it sold the best and the First full year of Mark 8 didn't outsell the last last year of Mark 7 Mark has been a complete and total failure look at the [ __ ] thing it's horrible well I guess if it's made in Germany then there's probably some logistical well got more expensive number one it got more expensive number two it got ugly number three it got capacitive touch controls number four it has a shitty interior and bad ux um and I don't think took a really big step in the right direction dynamically nothing to to to offset all any minuses no Golf R did different story because it got a real Vol drive system but yeah I mean we're talking about a 7,000 unit car at this point M nothing um but 40% are manual and now and so by the way know that's 7,000 units what do you think worldwide GTI sales are one gazillion million billion trillion I'm not even going to look it up because you're probably right I mean Volkswagen sells a [ __ ] ton of golfs and to take 7,000 units and say half of that is 3500 manuals a year just for the US market when Europe is done with them like you know [ __ ] Europe they've just completely destroyed the manual market for everyone else um and so 3,000 units of manual transmission totally not worth into Volkswagen I don't care that's not my business I still think it was the wrong choice um not my business whether they make money on the car or not but that sucks yeah that really sucks uh Golf R so if GTI is 50 did I say was 40 you did I did say 50 I guessed 43 or something uh golf far 39 why less all-wheel drive people are more interested in um traction and performance and absolute numbers more expensive car uh I don't know I just um it's instinctive you're right uh it should actually be higher and because you would think very much like a WRX it may be turbocharging all-wheel drive but it is actually the most performant version um and that all wheeel drive system is now [ __ ] great and whatever but it's only 40% um and the reason I'm sure why I was a percent off is the the gulf in performance between the automatic the DSG and the manual is enormous Manual's gears are totally ill chosen for that engine and by the time you get a turbo big enough to get 300 and something horsepower to that thing it's just laggy as [ __ ] yeah um and as much as I hate to say it I would take a automatic I wouldn't I wouldn't have one um but I wouldn't choose the manual um yeah interesting um so that's the state that's every manual car sold in America which is not good so it's kind of over um and when GTI goes away we have no hope I mean m m has now said their cars are going away BMW is not really selling anything else with a manual um sad but you got you sort of understand why Volkswagen's doing it when you have 3,000 units at like what was Total golf Total golf VW Golf production 2023 I mean Volkswagen delivered 4.87 million uh cars worldwide last year so of 4.87 what 4.85 are called I hate it here um yeah I don't uh so we're all just dinosaurs I mean nobody's going to well what's what's really happening is that the cars are being outlawed I mean at the end of the day enthusiasts are choosing them less there's no question there um that's as automatics have gotten better um which makes us dinosaurs if we care about them um but the other issue is that the car makers are not incentivized to make these cars um in fact it's difficult it's there's barriers yeah there huge barriers for emissions drive you know there everyone [ __ ] about rev hang that's that's an emissions thing right you snap a throttle shut and you get a lean Spike so you suddenly get a a spike of nox of oxides of nitrogen and they have to somehow control that with either huge catalysts or whatever it's just adds cost um and it's very difficult to deal with now direct injection should have solved part of that but apparently not if half these car companies still have um still have rev hang and so you know you're dealing with emissions and then you're dealing with uh fuel economy and Drive by laws that really favor tricks that automakers can play with their automatics and so the result is it's that much harder and the demand is dwindling and we wind up in a world where so Aston Martin's done Aston Martin makes a V12 manual they do oh we didn't get info from them oh I mean they probably sold single digits um but that's a special model um no one else is making manuals I me vantages or manuals I there is I don't know if it's they're still selling them um there's a new Vantage this year and I don't think it's manual anymore but that's again turbocharged 4 lit AMG like it's just the recipe is naturally aspirated if you if you get naturally aspirated and manual you and small in a car that vibrates in fizzes you will have manual sales if you don't kneecap it and even though Porche kneecap plus the WRX apparently yeah but what else you going to choose I mean you know you live in the Northeast and it snows and you don't want a Civic what are you going to get you're have to get a WX as an Enthusiast as an Enthusiast yeah wellow I'm not talking about non-enthusiasts [ __ ] them Golf R it's a lot of money for a little bit of car I mean you know when you can get a Civic for the same price that's twice the size yeah it's a tough sell yep and Civic has you know climate controls that light up and a volume control that lights up simple simple [ __ ] um yeah interesting I think I mean now I will find admit it's over with the caveat that it's only over for mass mass produced cars right special stuff like GT3 that apparently Miata yeah yeah but it's special right I mean the those are toys but the yeah it's it for me it's either manual or EV I have no interest in automatic anything you you pulled up in one you're a new c43 AMG you traiter I pull it by my Eagle which has no gears yeah it's fine but no waiting does that that's thing is I don't mind an EV because I'm not like arguing with some stupid [ __ ] computer that's programmed to get 900 miles per gallon out of a V8 like that's the one wonderful thing about the your c43 AMG is that somebody at AMG fought the fight internally and was like some [ __ ] is paying for gas on a 4.3 L we8 in a car the size of a Civic they want to go fast and they don't care about gas mileage and that's the truth right that transmission is 5-speed automatic revs the [ __ ] out of that thing yeah and I mean it's fairly short gearing I the final drive ratio they've chosen I mean 3,000 RPM in fifth gear is probably 75 miles an hour it's turning on the highway and I mean it will in routinely in traffic sort of just keeping up with traffic see 2 3 4,000 RPM um it's not uncommon to just get a 4,000 RPM shift accelerating moderately briskly um unlike modern stuff which is just and then the van I mean the funny thing Anthony Esposito was here last three weeks ago and he drove the van and he got out and he was like no wonder you hate automatics and it's actually it's a Chrysler 60 it's it's a 62d it's a good it's a fine transmission it shifts well but it's so goddamn concerned with fuel economy that you are 90% throttle going please just give me one goddamn gear give me one because it's you either get one downshift or 72 downshifts and it like spins itself to 42,000 RPM and you're like [ __ ] the motor's still cold and I you know didn't want to hit that car in front of me but I had to punt him out of the way um there's a total nonlinearity in that in that car is transmission we're not in the AMG yeah um if automatics were more like that I'd be more inclined well I mean all the modern ZF ones if you're on the boil are very good but yes the default programming when you're not doing that is very um conserv gear happy it's really lock them in sport modes but then my problem with the sport modes is you'll be cruising on the highway in fourth out of nine gears yes and it's just and please give me just an upshift and it's like nope you're in sport mode you're in sport I'm going to waste money for no reason yeah but I've been cruising at the same speed for 40 minutes yeah so then you end up throwing it a manual and at that point I'm like just give me a stick just yeah um well the generation of enthusiasts that follows is eventually going to either have to we have this conversation in the past but either they buy old cars or they're going to unman themselves we shall see eventually probably the ladder will have to Cur yeah I think it's over although if that all it's all going to come down to legislation if Europe especially um will allow low volume relatively low volume cars to have exemptions for emissions or exe be Exempted from requirs right noise noise is really California more than anything else Switzerland and California but um you know say all right of your whole Fleet for example Porsche right you sell 200 million cayen maans and panamas and tyon for the 75 people who want a GT3 can they just have what they want um and I think there's at least been some significant push back in Europe to try to allow that to happen because otherwise we've just legislated Ferrari out of existence right that's a big problem Ferrari is now a standalone company it's not part of Fiat group and how do you so I can't rely on the fleet characteristics and now they're not looking they stopped looking at Fleet after the excuse me the the Ferrari split off happen anyway and so now you're looking at a company that can no longer longer exist without becoming fully electric and that's just a question that the governments need to make that's not up for me or you to decide it's sort of the public and the government decide is this Italian National Treasure my words um worth having around uh if it's polluting the environment and there are plenty of people especially in Europe who would say no yeah you know people looking down on these cars and saying no we don't want them anymore make them electric and I think the pendulum might swing might have already swung too far in Europe to allow the continuation of any internal combustion cars not here in the states not yet yeah but it you know we're having the EV backlash now where everyone's like no one wants electric cars they're sitting on the laws they're all getting sold for Discount uh if you saw vinfast has a $259 lease special to 89 RS see now it starts to enter the realm of being a compelling value proposition because it's Dirt Cheap well which was the territory that historically was occupied by Hyundai in the 1980s early mylf I mean you know between Federal incentives and yeah and the 500e the whole like $40 a month or something like that 81 yeah yeah my first e golf was 8377 a month yeah like how could I complain about that who cares it was less than my cable bill yeah and it's less than a cell phone bill and it's a lot better than walking yeah yeah so okay that's the state of the manual Dark Times uh thanks for joining us for this episode of the car mudin show we will see you next time whenever that may be possibly even next week possibly but maybe not never [Music] knows
