The Dreaming Mind: Waking the Mysteries of Sleep

[Music] thank you [Music] Lewis Carroll's Adventures in Wonderland from the very moment Alice falls down that rabbit hole or a mind-bending journey through a dream Mary Shelley's Masterpiece Frankenstein and mendeleev's periodic table they were inspired by dreams Vincent van Gogh once noted I dream my painting and I paint my dream whether or not we remember them most of us dream every time we go to sleep our dreams they have delighted us frightened us mystified us and become enmeshed with our Collective psyche for thousands of years humans have attempted to make sense of these transformative nightly Journeys from the ancient Egyptians and Greeks who imagined dreams as messages from the gods to Aristotle who rejected the idea that dreams were orchestrated by the heavens instead believing they related to real Waking Life to Freud two thousand years later who took it a step further declaring dreams the royal road to the unconscious but with Freud's psychoanalysis being cast as soft science at best not to mention dreams having also been the purview of fortune tellers and psychics for a long time dreams were considered beyond the scope of rigorous scientific investigation until that is the 1950s when a grad student named Eugene essarinsky observed the flickering nighttime eye movements of his eight-year-old son thereby discovering REM rapid eye movement sleep this breakthrough showed that the sleeping brain is in an active not a passive State and launched the modern era of dream exploration now scientists have gone further still and crafted techniques to communicate with so-called lucid dreamers those are dreamers who within their dreams are aware that they are dreaming and these developments they may help us unlock the mysteries of dreaming and perhaps illuminate the nature of Consciousness itself so in tonight's program we'll explore some of the age-old questions like why do we dream and what do these nocturnal Visions mean as well as some newer ones like can we harness our dreams to Foster creativity to solve problems to even prepare us for the future Emily Bronte once said dreams have gone through and through me like wine through water and altered the color of my mind so let's follow Emily bronte's lead and journey together into the chromatic casts cues and shades of the human mind after midnight [Music] [Music] our first guest is Deirdre Barrett who is a lecturer and dream researcher at Harvard Medical School she has written five books including pandemic dreams and the committee of sleep and is the editor of the journal dreaming Deirdre focuses her study on the intersection of dreaming creativity and problem solving she joins us from New York City Welcome Deirdre our next guest is Antonio zadra who is a professor in the psychology department at the University of Montreal and an investigator at the center for advanced research in sleep medicine Tony's work explores lucid dreams nightmares and parasomnias and he co-authored the book when brains dream understanding the science and mystery of our dreaming Minds he joins us from Montreal welcome Tony and finally we have Professor Ken pallor who is the director of the cognitive Neuroscience program at Northwestern University his work focuses on sleep memory and Consciousness and the recent groundbreaking research he conducted with colleagues around the world proves that real-time two-way communication with lucid dreamers is possible he joins us from Evanston Illinois welcome Ken and welcome to you all thank you all so much for joining us for this discussion so I just want to begin with a general question of what is it about dreaming what is it about this kind of virtual reality playground of the mind that we each engage in every night what makes dreaming so captivating Tony thoughts on the staying power of dreams as a piece of Fascination for this species well I think we've always been fascinated by two questions one what are these experiences that we are having while we are asleep and two where do they come from and I think those two questions have driven people's desire to understand the nature and possible meaning of dreams and um and again where are we when we are immersed in these Virtual Worlds and how does a body that from the outside appears inert asleep often viewed as the a cousin of death how is it generating these really compelling experiences where we meet people we get chased we fall in love so I think I cross-culturally and historically we've been fascinated by why do we have these experiences where do they take place and what meaning if any do they hold dear terrific thoughts on that I mean it's just these amazing things happen to us during the night and although some cultures teach about looking to dreams for creative ideas or wisdom or believe that they're communicating with ancestors or Gods I think it's just absolutely natural you just see a young child even in a family that's not talking about dreams at all will start recounting these amazing things that happen to them during the night I I think it's just in the nature of the experience to Fascinate us yeah can any any thoughts on that yeah and it's striking that some people are really wonderful at telling stories of creating stories and so we think certain people have a great capacity for that but in fact all of us invent these wonderful stories every night in our dreams so we all have that capacity and it kind of stands next to what our waking experiences are like when uh ordinary things are happening and we don't have the same creativity of just telling a an incredible Story the way our brain seems to operate during sleep yeah I know it's an amazing thing throughout history there have been many theories about why we dream from evolutionary necessity to the possibility that dreaming is just sort of meaningless firings inside the brain while we sleep and so what are some of the ideas that people have put forward in the past for why we dream okay well there's many when we ask the question do dreams of a function what we're asking is do these virtual reality hallucinatory experiences we have during the night have a function their messages from the gods was one of the first ones again we're going where do they come from well the gods are sending them to us and if they're busy sending us messages then you know they must have value there's also ideas from Freud uh you know the dreams serve as the expression of suppressed wishes so dreams give disguised forms to these wishes which are acceptable to us um Jung came along and had a more broad holistic and positive review of dreams as helping our well-being but if we talk about more contemporary models of Dreams there is for instance the threat simulation theory of dreams that posits that one of the evolutionary advantages of dreams for our ancestors was that they could rehearse potentially dangerous situations they could rehearse threats and appropriate responses to them so it's a a virtual reality simulator that helps prepare us for real life dangers that group headed by auntie ravanzo a philosopher neuroscientists in Finland recently had another version of this which is social simulation function of Dreams which is dreams we don't we're very rarely alone in our dreams we're often interacting with others so there's a very strong social component and so the idea is that dreams might help us decipher visual cues in others their intentions and form social bonds and that that has an Adaptive value dreams are for regulating emotions now we know that REM sleep plays an important role in regulating our emotions but there's also some evidence that may be dreaming itself plays a role in these processes and so there's all of these different ideas that dreams also might help us solve problems and I'm sure Deirdre has a lot of wonderful examples also about that historically and and also in more recent research really I'd really like to jump in with something know because I agree with my most of what Tony said but my take is a little bit different and maybe more evolutionary specific perspective which is when people ask me that I'm always struck that they they would never ask that about what is waking thought for or at least they wouldn't ask it and think maybe there was a one phrase or a one sentence answer and the fact that that serious theories Freud's about dreams being wish fulfillment and Dr revenantsu's about dreams being threat simulation if you think about them they are as opposite as you can get and if we were talking about waking thought we we would think of course it's for both those things plus a lot others and yet theories will say dreams are just for this one thing or dreams are just for that one thing and I think that what people sometimes don't understand about evolution is that a very recent development in Behavior structure is likely to have one purpose but the the sleep cycle with rapid eye movement sleep is a very separate stage of sleep approximately dates back to the start of mammals so an enormous amount of evolutionary history and I think that certainly that the Sleep stage probably developed to replenish certain neurotransmitters that were getting used up too rapidly when being awake to it's actually the time when body temperature regulation shuts down I mean there's some very obviously biological things happening during rapid eye movement sleep but then I think the best demonstrated function has to do with certain types of memory consolidation some happen more in non-rem but some happen the more emotional ones happen more in rem so I think it's like a layering like they're these physiologic needs that it's serves for even those primitive mammals and then there are simple cognitive things that it serves for most mammals just on and on up but I think humans because they've had the state of so much visual imagery and narratives and I have no trouble with the neurological types who say that's determined because of some biological need but I think once we've had that for all of human history that we're getting some functions layered on top of that that if we're going to spend all this much time in states where our brains make looser associations and can hallucinate Nate visual imagery that we've started using that for enhancing creativity around visual spatial things for helping us think outside the box when we're stuck on on in our waking thought so I just think it's it's just as complicated as as waking thought in all the functions that maybe serving and so so Ken do any of these resonate with you do you think it's a combination of all the above I would add another perspective from Neuroscience to think about dreams I really want to think about it together with thinking about sleep so how is it that sleep contributes to our memory functions and to that I need to back up a little bit and say well how do we learn new new things how do we gain new information and when humans are learning information doesn't necessarily stick immediately and we we know that you have to rehearse information and so we know that learning depends on not just acquiring some information initially but a prolonged process we call consolidation where the information we learned gets integrated with other things we know so now we have evidence from multiple sources that that happens during sleep and a lot of the work has been focusing on slow wave sleep because there's been sort of very consistent evidence showing that slow wave sleep is beneficial for Learning and in fact looking at the of physiology we can see that those slow waves are part of the story because those slow waves make it possible for communication between different brain regions to be efficient and then we have to say can that connect to why we dream and why we remember dreams later and that's sort of the newer work that's looking at that because in the studies of slow wave sleep we're not asking people what dreams they remember and in fact when you consolidate memories during slow wave sleep you wake up without any knowledge you were doing that in fact interestingly when you go to sleep and wake up after some time you might think your brain was off the whole time the way my laptop computer does nothing when it goes to sleep when you turn it off the information that was there at the moment you turned it off is still there in a static form when you turn it Wick when you wake up when the computer wakes up again and you want to extract that information but our brains are quite different and that information is getting turned around during sleep and it makes sense that perhaps the dreams that we recall are connected with this process of integrating information that we've acquired recently with the information that we've stored over the prior parts of our life and figuring out what's important and how does that information relate to say our future goals or problems we're having at the moment but this churning over of information during sleep and perhaps during dreams seems to be perhaps part of the process where we can effectively have information that we're going to need later and why do we need that information well reminiscing is nice so it's great if you can think about your memories but of course you want that information to inform the decisions you make and to be good at creative problem solving later and so for those reasons you want to have consolidation work and uh that could work without our knowledge completely unconsciously so it's still a mystery why is there some remnant of that when you wake up in the form of these dreams if that's not a necessary component of the consolidation process going forward and as Tony was saying you don't necessarily need to remember those dreams perhaps for the process to be effective whatever's happening in REM sleep and in non-ram sleep can be effective even if we don't know about it when we wake up so you made reference to memory consolidation during sleep there is evidence for that now that that is something that happens inside of our heads while we're sleeping there's many sources of evidence showing that the more slow waves that appear the better memory is when you wake up there's some studies you know not just correlating what happens but actually manipulating the process Can Be an Effective sign scientific approach so this is a method that we call targeted memory reactivation and what that method allows us to do is ask well if particular memories are activated when you're asleep are there any repercussions usually we present some sensory information but very subtly so that it doesn't disturb sleep and the sensor information can be like a prompt to make you rehearse and if you want to rehearse when you're awake maybe you get a little of the information you're trying to think about and you recall the rest of it and every time you do that that's helping the memories be stronger a cat's meow can be a prompt is a The Not So subtle sound effect that we're hearing right now ah that's what I was hearing yes so and so in some of our experiments in fact we have people learn locations of objects and they may learn 50 different objects and each one has a sound like the cat has a meow sound the kettle has a whistle of the kettle sound every object has a sound and people don't need to learn the sounds what they need to do is learn where exactly are those objects where was that kettle last time I saw it and they learned exactly where it goes and then they also can be reminded of that location with the sound so we present those sounds as they're learning and then we again present some of those sounds very quietly while they're in slow wave sleep and those sounds connect with their memories for that information and remind them and in fact make them think of the locations of those objects and we suspect that's happening because when people wake up they are remembering the locations for the objects that we had them reactivate during sleep and so this has been done with spatial knowledge with verbal knowledge with lots of other things we published a study recently this year with face name learning so when you learn the names of people of course you want to practice those so that when you see that face again you can say oh hi glad to meet you Brian and and remember that name later and so when a memory is reactivated it's not just played again but it it's actually strengthening the neural network that stores that information so that it improves uh increases the chances that you can recall that information later so Tony what do you think there's overwhelming evidence that one of the things that sleep does cognitively is enhance our memory so to consolidate memories but memory consolidation is more like when you are learning a fact you sort of want to stabilize the memory and so that sort of makes animals or mammals are us kind of smart if you want but how and when you use that information what's makes people wise and we think that that's where dreaming comes in that's where you need these hallucinatory experiences and so what is important how does it fit into what we've learned recently and we know that dream content isn't random you can see patterns in individuals and also the kinds of information and events and thoughts that get Incorporated in our dreams aren't random the brain has a preference for emotionally Salient events or concerns and that's what gets integrated into dreams most and we think that maybe what the brain is doing particularly in REM sleep is exploring in a way that you would never do while you were awake very weak associations it takes this experience we had and goes what is there in our semantic Registries that sort of tie into this so it's opening different drawers and seeing does it relate to this does it relate to this and one way the brain can figure out if it's on a good path or not is how are you the dreamer reacting to these associations in in the dream and this feedback loop which evolves over time as the narrative unfolds in this very unique as the address said biochemical state that is REM sleep in particular explores all these things to try to make sense and to create these memories as Ken said not to memory is not there to reminisce memories help us understand what is coming up and how to adapt to the Future world and so I think that in dreams your brain is doing something very similar but in a much more metaphorical abstract loosely associated way which is why dreams have this inherent bizarreness your dream is exploring in what way can this material be useful and so it's not just consolidating memories it's taking them it's weaving them into our autobiographical memories our understanding of ourselves our place in the world and what might happen in the future and that might entail emotional regulation it might entail creativity sometimes so returning back to Deirdre I agree that the dreaming brain can do much more than one thing and it's all layered and depending what kind of challenges you're facing where you are in your development in your age and what challenges we Face covid Wars what trauma um your your brain is going to be creating different kinds of narrative scenarios because it's trying to adapt to the Future and that's what allows the species to survive and so so given that clear articulation of the potential uh evolutionary adaptive role of dreaming across the spectrum of ways in which we human beings can be better prepared to engage with the challenges of the world I want to turn to a type a specific type of dreaming that I think is less familiar to the general public than the kind of everyday or should I say every night version of dreaming where we go to sleep and dreams just kind of happen to us there's a there's a version of dreaming called lucid dreaming that you all are intimately familiar with but frankly I had never even heard of it until relatively recently and in fact I realized that I had a lucid dream before I knew what the term lucid dream even meant I mean just very very quickly I'm not asking to be psychoanalyzed here but um there was a renovation happening in the apartment across the way from ours and I was invited in in my dream world it was a real renovation happening and they took me around and it was crazy in there there were stages and performers and circus all this crazy stuff but what really caught my attention was the height of the ceiling because I knew that the ceiling couldn't be that high so I said to the contractor how'd you get the ceiling so high he said well the outside of the building has a different shape in this part of the building and in the dream I said to myself that's not true I know what this building looks like this must be a dream and I said to myself in the dream I'm going to wake myself up and prove that this is a dream and I ship myself in the dream and I shook myself in real life and I woke up and and so I'd never had that that experience before it was kind of a a wild moment for me but I but I gather that this is something now which um science really can confirm that there is this thing called lucid dreaming where you can be in a dream and know that you're in the dream so Ken you've actually done some some work on this really establishing scientifically that that lucid dreaming is a real thing can you tell us about that yeah I think it's been established that it was real for quite a while but we had some additional questions one of our questions was can we do better with dream research because right now we find out about dreams only when you wake up and you wake up you're in a different stage your brain is in quite a different stage and you forget a lot of your dreams as we were discussing earlier probably you remember only a small fraction of your dreams and you may distort the parts you do remember or forget details and so we thought well dream research would be better equipped to understand dreams if we could also look at the brain during a dream and find out what people are experiencing but we wanted to be able to ask people what they're experiencing and we thought while they're while they're sleeping while they're sleeping if we could not wait for them to wake up and tell us about their dream but ask them during the dream questions about what they're dreaming then we would be better equipped to continue our studies and try to understand dreams and how they relate to memory processing and creativity and so forth so we set out to do that and there are two challenges one is to have someone in a sleep lab in the midst of a lucid dream and the other was to show that you can actually communicate with them because lucid dreaming as you mentioned is a bit rare not everyone does it even people that do it don't necessarily have a dream every time they would come to the sleep lab and and so we needed to provoke lucid dreaming and so we basically took the method I had been using in slow wave sleep targeted memory reactivation and to try to transfer that to REM sleep and so instead of having people learn the locations of objects before sleep we had them learn a strategy of how to think carefully about the present moment and carefully decide am I awake right now or am I in the midst of a dream so we trained them to do that for a few minutes before sleep together with an important sound so there was some sound that cued them to go into that State of Mind of carefully checking it might be a little violin or or the sound of a harp some beeping noises and we use some lights as well so different sorts of sensory stimulation that we could then present again when we know they're in REM sleep so they do the training with the sound they get the sound again during REM sleep and that often provokes people to have a lucid dream and so our first part of the challenge was successful we can maybe met make even half of the people have a lucid dream when we present those sounds with that procedure the targeted memory reactivation or we call it targeted Lucidity activation in this case and so but how do we know they're having a lucid dream well we had to give them some instructions and so it's been known that lucid dreamers can move their eyes in their dream body and their actual eyes will move to and we can put electrodes on their face and record that those eye movements and if you make an eye movement to the left and to the right very far in the distance left right left right we can record that activity from our electric physiological measurements and that you know in Rapid Eye move and sleep you see some eye movements but you seldom see the all the way to the left to right left right movement so it's a very distinctive signal we can be very confident when we see it that the dreamer is signaling to us understand that they're in in the midst of a dream so we've established that they're having a lucid dream and they've given us the signal now what wasn't known before was whether people could receive information and communicate back and so that's what we did in my lab and also several labs in Europe that we published together we showed that well if we ask a question to a lucid dreamer they can give us an answer back with eye movements or a few other modes of expressing themselves that are available to them of course because they can't talk their body is mostly paralyzed so they're unable to just sort of give us an answer to the question but with eye movement signals or some muscle twitches or what we're using now sniffing signals we can measure responses from people because of course your respiration is still working during sleep and you can control that and you can sniff and we can put a cannula near the nose to measure that sniff response what sort of question so we wanted to ask questions where we knew what the correct answer was not something about their dream but something where we could verify it was the correct answer so we settled on math problems little math problems there would be addition or subtraction and the answer might be one two three or four and they would be told move your eyes left to right the number of times for the answer to the question and therefore they could answer the question and so we've repeated this with other subjects a number of times it doesn't work every time but it's been repeated enough in our lab and other labs for us to know that we are successfully communicating that people can hear a question they can think about it they can you know understand it correctly do a mental computation little addition or subtraction and decide what the answer is and then produce the answer with their eye movement signals so that we can confirm that we've communicated correctly and now we're moving ahead to ask more interesting questions besides math problems to find out well what are they dreaming at the moment what is their experience of the moment and then asking and what's the brain activity at the same time and how do we relate those two so we can understand more and more about dreaming and what do the participants say after they wake up do they remember being asked a question and do they remember the process by which they came to the answer in the dream state yes interestingly not always do they remember but many times people remember the question and so they would wake up they would tell us what they were dreaming dreaming there are other people that heard the question coming from some aspect of the dream so one person was in a car and it sounded like the questions were coming from the car radio another dreamer thought it was coming from the ceiling just like some someone talking to them out of nowhere uh and of course some people don't don't respond at all so they may not have a lucid dream where they may not uh have the capacity for the information to come from the outside into their dream but but here's the interesting part you might think well how do we remember dreams we remember a small fraction of our dreams but if you have a lucid dream you must remember that because your brain is in this different state but actually we found that some people communicate during a dream they get a question they answer correctly and then some minutes later we wake them up and they don't remember it happening so in fact even a lucid dream isn't necessarily stored effectively our brain is in such a different state that we're not necessarily storing the experience which as you were discussing earlier it's kind of adaptive that you know we don't want to mix up things that really happened with things we experienced in a dream or even in the waking state things we imagine happening we need to keep those separate so like we don't get offended of our friends for doing something that they didn't actually do it yeah no I always get I always get angry at my wife for what she does in the dream world and she goes along with it strangely enough and recognizes that somehow this is a reality for me but Tony rumor has it that you are a proficient Lucid dreamer is there one that you want to share with us that is particularly telling of the experience I once had a dream where I'm met Carl Jung and he was telling me all these wonderful ideas about the psyche and how lucid dreaming fits into this and I realized I was dreaming but I thought I'm not going to be able to remember all of this when I wake up and so my clever solution I decided to take notes of course when I woke up my notes weren't there so your logic injuries you might think you're logical but you're not really and so it's even in lucid dreams it's very hard to maintain your attention and your critical sense all that they say becoming Lucid is one thing and and yourself you mentioned you became Lucid in your dream then you woke up but staying Lucid that is having that critical frame of mind and not falling back into non-lucid dreaming and not getting too excited to wake up can be a really fine line so I think it's it's much more challenging than many people maybe portray it to be and Deirdre I understand that you've conducted research on lucid dreaming what have you learned I did a study which ended up under the title just how Lucid or lucid dreams where I came up with four corollaries that seem like just some of the most basic things if you knew completely logically all the implications that this is a dream you should know these things and they were that dream characters are not the real people they are your representation of them that dream objects are not real and you cannot bring them back from the dream world that you should have memories of your Waking Life rather than either amnesia for it or made up things um and oh that you don't have to how could I forget this in front of Brian that you don't have to obey the laws of physics in a dream what I found was that only half the dreams where the dreamer knew it was a dream were Lucid on any one of these corollaries and only one-fourth were Lucid on all of them then for objects people sometimes wanted to bring back one object just to prove they were in this dream world but others were trying to take notes because they realized that they didn't always recall their dreams in all its detail and and you would just see examples where people would say this is a dream and then on the dream character one they'd start talking to someone and go my God We're Dreaming so as soon as we wake up I'm gonna call you and we're going to compare notes to see if we remember the same thing from the dream that one cropped up repeatedly there was another one that was rolling back that I didn't like the way that happened I'm going to change it and have a different outcome and they'd sort of roll back the action and Roll It Forward and they substituted one person for another and they said I know I can do that because I'm the director of this play I'm a theater director so I can I can change the plan the action and and try as many versions as I want because I'm directing this play yeah so so it's just amazing that the sort of Lucidity is such a Continuum and you know it has yeah I mean speaking speaking of uh characters in in lucid dreams there's a there's an artist in the UK Named Dave green no no relationship to me I don't know I think some of you may know him but you know I interacted with him over the course of a couple days and he through the process of being able to put himself in a lucid dream was able to be the director as Deidre is saying and conjure me in his dream and much like Tony he was saying trying to take notes he's elevated the idea of taking notes in a lucid dream to an art literally because he draws in the lucid dream a portrait of the subject in his case namely me and then he is able to in the real world try to remember what he drew and present it to the subject in this case may take a look we have a little bit of footage of this Dave Green I'm an artist and I work with lucid dreams a lucid dream is a dream in which you're aware of the fact that you're dreaming I've had Fairly regular and spontaneous lucid dreams ever since I was a child I had quite bad nightmares and at some point I learned to change the course of the dream to deal with these nightmares [Music] sometimes people say you can control the dream but it might be more accurate to say you can influence the dream as well as Conjuring drawings out of my lucid dreams I also do portraits of people I'll meet the dream version of them in my lucid dream I locate a Dream pen and a dream piece of paper and I'll create their portrait in the dream world and then wake up and recreate that artwork in Waking Life it's quite hard to dream about someone who you don't really know so a lot of the time it'll be a random person who contacts me on the internet so what I'll do is I'll arrange a conversation with them on Zoom hey hello Brian any background on me I mean or do you like to go in with a lot of information or a little information or what's your relationship like with your your dreams so I'll get to know them a little bit just so it makes it easier to dream of them if I'm planning to meet a specific person in my in my lucid dream there's a few different rituals that I'll do to help increase my chances I might pace around the room a bit and rehearse the actions that I'm intending to do in the lucid dream I've never lose a dream I'm gonna meet Ryan green I'm going to create his portraits I might meditate for 10 20 minutes before I went to bed I might place the pen and paper on my desk and literally just write my goal for that lucid dream on the paper I'll grab my pen and I'll put that in my pajama pocket so when I roll over I might kind of feel that on my leg it sounds kind of ridiculous but that will help me remember what I'm planning to do drawing in a lucid dream is nothing like drawing in Waking Life because everything in a dream is in a constant state of flux nothing is stable for more than a couple of seconds until it transforms into something else although I'm aware of the fact I'm drawing In The Dream Most of the content of the drawing is out of my control it's like an interaction between my conscious and my unconscious mind playing itself out on the page in real time [Music] foreign [Music] started without any visual so I was just feeling my way around usually the person would just sort of appear and go Dave here I am but it didn't happen sounds weird but I kind of felt I felt something I was like hang on that's someone's face and then I told myself that's going to be Brian Green and then you kind of you emerged and from there all the visuals kicked in that's great that's great and then from there I held up this piece of paper and then some drawings started to appear on the paper and that's so if I spent around this is so when I told you it wouldn't necessarily look like a traditional portrait this kind of way yeah I would say that it doesn't quite look like a traditional Port today I agree with that characterization so like what am I looking at to be honest they remain as mysterious to me as they do too to anyone most most of the time this is my favorite one so I I met dream Brian Greene the dream version of you and I gave you a pen and paper oh you did okay and you instructed me to draw me or you instructed me to draw anything just draw anything okay so that so that's that one wow that's very cool it's quite funny actually you started scribbling but you didn't want to look at the paper so you were looking away like that and you're just drawing like this and you just scribbled a face and you were drawing yourself Portrait by the way so yeah yes it has a very psychedelic feel to it it's funny doing this for you because sometimes people are like they have a way more sort of outlandish view of what lucid dreaming is than I do so they sort of relate to it like a cyclic or something and I'm like I'm one of your artists that sometimes I'm begging people to like read listen to my artwork I find it fascinating to see how various influences filters through your brain and emerges in this unusual context of lucid dreaming but to go beyond that and to read in some deeper reality into the drawing that actually comes directly from me or is telling me something about my life that would be hard for me to go that step the reason I like engaging in lucid dreaming through artwork is because art is all about asking questions right it's not about settling on answers and I think that is the most healthy way for me to engage with lucid dreaming I do it in like a playful way and I just always keep an open mind and I try to be comfortable with the ambiguity and the Mystery of Dreams so Tony I gather you actually know Dave green and have been working with him sending him various assignments to come up with characters and lucid dreams and interact with them so what do these kind of exercises that we just saw and the ones that you've done with him directly what does it tell us about dream characters and what does that tell us about the brain that's Conjuring these characters up indeed Dave and I have been working together on these various projects which I really aim to address questions of well what is you know characters in our dreams often act and speak as if they had their own perspectives their own intentions their own feelings and so there were came the idea I said well uh Dave instead of drawing yourself ask dream characters to do the drawings for you but also like if they are sitting in front of you drawing their perspective is 180 degrees from yours so will the drawing make sense do they have to turn it over to you and just asking characters to draw I was just also curious to know how do they respond so as you see some of them like um you know yourself in his dream uh agree to the task but you know instantly apparently I wanted to look away from when I was drawing apparently that's right but for instance in one dream he said that the character said oh no I can't do that and when Dave asks him well why not he goes well I'm from Czechoslovakia and so there's there's this weird you know these and and David was like where did my brain come up with that but one lady in his dream did a drawing gave it to him and it was just a series of numbers and so he asked her you know well this is in a drawing she goes of course it is you know but now it's up to you to decipher what it means and so it's just again it's very playful but it's also instructive because he's aware that he's dreaming he remembers he's very good at remembering these instructions as easy as they pertain to drawing but there's an element which is always a surprise that is what are these characters how are they going to respond to these requests and what are they going to produce as a drawing so it's very different from him intentionally drawing it's sort of another part of his brain that's sort of active doing this and then showing them a finished product that he's not aware till he sees it what it is though his brain is producing it so it's this uh interesting empirical but also playful art science mixture in this project that we're doing together so Deidra what do you think about all these characters that inhabit our minds at night I mean what can they tell us about ourselves and about the human brain one of the studies I did that that sort of told me the most about what dream characters were started out as something where um I was trying to look at the dreams of people who had what at that time was called multiple personality disorder it's now dissociative identity disorder but they they have parts of themselves that kind of pop out as if separate personalities and often have amnesia for each other's experiences and it's a rare but really interesting Disorder so I did this serve they asking clinicians if they're patients that ever told them dreams and and if so how the the multiple personality interacted with with dreaming and what I really noticed was that if you hadn't known there were multiples they were basically normal dreams but sometimes one personality would have another one show up as a character in their dream and sometimes in a morning three or four personalities would wake up remembering the same dream but each of them was in a different role like one had been this little girl who was scared that someone was going to come and harm her and she was huddled under the bed and one had been an adult coming trying to soothe her and another was another playful kid trying to distract her and one was like trying to diminish this little girl and and and yet any one of them could have had those dreams and it would have just seemed like this you know what we often call sort of dissociated in part of our our self that dream characters are and so I actually ended up concluding that maybe multiple personality it came a little bit from a sort of using this ability to create all these other selves that we naturally have in REM sleep and when really stressed beginning to to either neurologically malfunction and do this awake or or call upon it as you know as a useful defense mechanism when awake but it just it made me realize that we I as others had really been talking about splitting off parts of the cell for dissociating parts of the self both for the dream characters and for um for the multiple personalities and even in normal Waking Life we experience kind of slightly different aspects of our self but I think that in REM sleep and uh and in in multiple personality that whatever that mechanism that's holding us together is is not working the same has been yeah sort of let loose and that's when all the different characters or personalities show up there we have to bring them together rather than that's amazing and can I follow up on that a little bit there's a history um Tibetan Buddhists who have a practice called dream yoga and that has many different components but part of it is sometimes to experience a transformation so the student is advised to have a lucid dream and transform into another creature and experience the world in different ways and so that's part of the general idea of how can we use our dreams to help us improve and to perhaps think differently about our Waking Life by comparing it to our dream life and the flexibility that is so readily available in our lucid dreams is there is there evidence that people have been able to use dreams lucid dreams to improve their performance and I don't know sports music things of that sort there is evidence for that but of course it's been limited by the small number of people that can have consistent lucid dreams and I think we can do we can do better with that but but yes you can use your dream time to perhaps engage some practice of a skill that you've been working on during your waking time and maybe just a little bit more effort during your sleep time could be helpful maybe you know if you're a gymnast and you're practicing your routines over and over again maybe it'd be helpful to practice them in slow motion a bit and you could do that or without gravity practice them without grafting no gravity there and just you know work on the techniques a little bit more carefully so your whole world is being created by your brain without the sensory input regulating things the way our waking experiences so you can have an experience that's completely real in a dream and we kind of think that contrasts with the real experience we have when we're awake and the sensory world is determining what we're experiencing but those two experiences they're actually the same quality of experience for our subjective awareness when we're experiencing a world and it kind of shows you that well the waking World experience it's in the same sense produced by our brain just like our Dream experiences are there's nothing really different about them aside from the sensory input that dictates a little bit what happens but as far as the feeling of being there and being immersed in a world we only need our brain for that we actually don't need the sensory world for that so you know if you spend a lot of your time working on you know some musical skill that you're developing your brain is probably working on that again during sleep but we can promote it and you know if you do many things during the day your brain might go off in many different directions during the night but maybe you'd like to Target it to specific things you'd rather do that would be helpful for you for your psychological well-being and for your problem solving things you're working on that you want to come up with new solutions for for example and you do have lucid dreams right Deirdre I have lucid dreams I naturally I'm a little more more than average Lucid dreamer like I maybe have three a year if I'm not doing anything but when I use these sort of original technique Steve Laberge Advocates where you do daytime reality checks you you think of something that's different in your dreams like trying to read text doesn't work in dreams for many people or watches and clock run oddly your light switches don't actually change the lighting so you pick something that doesn't work the same in your dream and just periodically through the day you try to read something or you try to flip a light switch and then you fall asleep kind of doing a general dream incubation tonight in my dream I want to be Lucid when I do that I have about one a week I'd like to emphasize dream incubation because I think it is like the single most important and really the easiest technique to optimize some of these things we've been talking about about creativity and problem solving and getting something from your dreams and the term incubation is borrowed from the Greek dream temples where people went and they would pray to the god Oscar lapius who was both the god of dreams and the god of healing for dreams which were usually for medical healing but but in some in some temples in some eras they were just kind of for problem solving dreams and they slept in the temple but that this was called incubation so modern Western psychologists have a a sort of less ritualized non-religious version of this where we ask people to focus on what they want to dream about and it can be just a topic or person or place if you're just trying to have a nice nice dream or it can be a question you have for yourself or it can be a problem you're stuck on and if it's a problem it can be a personal one about why you and your spouse keep having this certain pattern of arguments and what you could do differently but it can be something like if you're stuck on what is the structure of benzene what does this molecule look like I want to dream about that and so you tell yourself you want to dream about that just as a simple verbal statement as you're falling asleep you form a mental image of the problem or question or person you want to dream on because our dreams are so visual that the visual image tends to stay in memory and get through the dreaming mind the very best a picture related to what you want to dream about is the last thing you look at on your nightstand or a little collection of objects but you just fall asleep self-suggesting that you want a dream an answer to a problem or simply on a topic I use dream incubation more during the pandemic than any other technique I did a survey anxiety dreams went up so much I have fifteen thousand pandemic dreams that I wrote a book about and I did some research on people were always asking how they could have fewer anxiety dreams so I found that just incubating positive dreams choosing focusing on what you wanted to dream about both radically tended to alter the the average dream content but also some people who end up not recalling a dream at all say oh but it's just such a beautiful way to fall asleep like I sort of have the experience of falling asleep of thinking what I'd like to to dream about so dream incubation I think is an extremely powerful technique but jumping off from that notion just the final topic I want us to touch on is the relationship between dreaming and creativity and problem solving and there are many examples that people speak about throughout the world cultural World scientific world like it's said that Paul McCartney came up with the melody for yesterday in a dream there's a story that I know from science this uh scientist Otto lowie who claimed to figure out cellular communication through a dream and delay of and periodic table there's also this other famous example of August kakule Germany a chemist who figured out the chemical structure of benzene in a dream so is there much to this are these just stories anybody have a thought on that oh absolutely there's a lot to it I mean I just I'd heard kind of the ones you rattled off and maybe another dozen kind of always repeated in every dream book and so when I started researching dreams and creativity and I both did some some formal research but also wrote this book called the committee of sleep which is more anecdotal I I I combed the indexes of old History of Science and books for the word dream and started finding just more and more that were not the retold ones and I also put out a call to people in different professions about whether they had ever had a dream that was important in their work Paul Horowitz who's he's a full professor in both the engineering and yeah yeah yeah and Paul designs the controls for telescopes and he was basically telling me that whenever he is working on a telescope problem and and only those for some reason uh he does other kinds of engineering but when he's working on a problem that it's not one one main problem the way the kecule example is but it's a series of problems and that he reliably always has a dream that gives him a better solution than he has and and he describes that uh that he'll fur these dreams are very clear he remembers them easily they're kind of realistic he's looking over the shoulder of a man who's trying to do whatever it is and he sees the man kind of doing the little things he's already tried as the voice narrates that and then the voice switches to so the best solution would be and tells him something thing he had not thought of before while he watches the man put it together one MIT mathematician told me about a math problem he was trying to solve and John Nash appeared and Einstein told a computer programmer of all things like how to write his program in another dream so this kind of Super Wise Man figure is common well I'm still waiting I'm still waiting for Einstein to show up in in my dream and give me some insight but Tony have you solved any problems in your sleep is that something you've experienced uh no I I've created problems but I haven't solved any uh no not not not personally um but I think you know to come back to your question about is there something to this as theater was saying absolutely I think you know some of these cases might be disputed where they you know they they reported the discovery 20 years later that it came in a dream or whatever but there's enough of this material anecdotally and otherwise to suggest that this is this is something that can happen that is but you got to keep in mind these individuals who have these discoveries or breakthroughs or insights are working on these problems you know intensely sometimes not for weeks or months in some cases for years uh like a periodic table of the elements you know so now in some of these cases the solution isn't contained in the dream directly but once these people wake up and then they reflect on the content of the dream the solution shows up and I think dreaming as a whole has been slowly through generations devalued we sort of lost touch with maybe what it the dreams as a product can do for us and sharing dreams recalling dreams um trying to facilitate Solutions dream incubation and so on I think that if it was more respected and collectively practice um well put it this way I don't think the world would be a worse place but it might be a little bit better or at least individually it would be but we sort of lost track of that right I mean if you go back even Salvador Dali had a technique where you know it'd hold a heavy key slip into sleep his hand would open because he was sleeping he dropped the key he would smash a plate and he would then be inspired by that Twilight space between being awake and being asleep the hypnagogic state and would create wonderful artwork inspired by what he had there but but Ken I just want to turn to you I mean what is your perspective you've actually done studies where you've you've watched people do better at solving a problem by virtue of incubating that problem in their dream or in their sleep stage so how effective is this as an approach to dealing with real world issues we uh agree that with the idea that an intention to have a particular dream you know dream incumbation can work but it's not always dependable and so we wanted to go One Step Beyond that and see if we could really provoke people to think about problems that they hadn't solved and it was related to Brian what you were talking about earlier the evidence for uh the importance of dreaming for coming up to solutions to problems or creating new music or new other ideas it's mostly anecdotal so there hadn't been a lot of studies to really show that that can work and so we wanted to provoke it in a series of studies these were run by Kristen Sanders who was a PhD student in Mark Beeman's lab and his lab specializes in creativity and problem problem solving so they have a whole set of small little problems that they can give to people like the one with these sets of circles uh in the shape of a triangle triangle is pointing up and the problem is can you move three of those circles to change it to a triangle that's pointing down and Kristen would give people about two minutes to try to solve this and and many other problems and and they're hard and often people don't come up with the solution in the two minutes and that's what we wanted because then she took these problems and asked whether people could saw them after a period of sleep overnight sleep and so what she did is each problem that she presented to people came with a little music soundtrack and they had to associate which music went which with problem and then during their sleep they went home and we gave them technology that could record their sleep when they were in slow wave sleep some of the music was presented in fact for half of the problems they were given and then they came back to the lab the next day and we asked well what's their chance of solving the problems now and as predicted the chances of solving went way up for the problems that we reactivated during sleep so we showed that if a problem is reactivated during sleep it increases the likelihood of getting the solution the next day but our study was the full night of sleep and we couldn't find out is it because of REM sleep or or a slow wave sleep or a different stage but we did show that if we had people reactivate problems that we picked a subset of the problems that they had not solved the day in the evening session when they came back in the morning we could increase the chances of them solving problems so perhaps creativity can be harnessed to do that either with Our intention before we go to sleep or maybe even with some technology that can provoke us to use our our sleep in in this particular way so that's exciting but it also raises a question and it's a penultimate one that I'd like to ask all of you which is look if you can influence somebody while they're sleeping to better solve a problem you are influencing them in some surreptitious way for them to have certain kinds of thoughts now that can be used for good it can be used for ill right and so do do any of you worry that as you become better at engineering and incubating certain kinds of things while people are sleeping or dreaming that you know big corporations I don't have to name them but you know I have this little thing by my bedside and I say I don't even want to say the name because my iPad will probably speak up if I say hey Siri you know there's a there's a speaker there where you could imagine surreptitiously having all sorts of things pumped into your head while you are asleep that geared toward I don't know buying this or that product or things of that sort does that worry you as a direct action in which this kind of research might go it should worry you if you keep the TV on all night while you're sleeping so I wouldn't recommend that yeah I mean people have been doing that since the dawn of radio falling asleep listening to things although I I I I believe that Tony and I very much disagree on these so he he certainly will probably want to say something but there have been very recently some of my colleagues have been saying that they that they think this is very possible and alarming and there was there was a call that some of them tried to get a senator to introduce something to the Federal Trade Commission to make it illegal to to do exactly that to play things over speakers it to activate your speaker and play ads at you while you were dreaming to to do any sort of involuntary dream stuff and I think that that's really naive about what already exists they did not seem to have looked at the Federal Trade commission's guidelines which are very clear that any deceptive advertising is forbidden that you cannot do covert things where someone doesn't know they're being advertised to that's why we see all these things that even though they look a little bit like fake news stories they say paid advertisement in huge letters across the top because otherwise they'd be in violation so they cannot turn your speakers on to play ads just for your sleep without your very clearly if you want to be paid to listen to ads during your sleep that would not be illegal as long as you're properly informed but you're talking on that well I I disagree to the to I agree with some points but I also think that this technology is evolving very quickly and so I think it's naive to think that just playing things over the speakers you can use smells you can condition you can use tactile more and more people are are sleeping with wearables that monitor their heart rate respiration rate we're getting some wearables that are getting fairly good at detecting broad sleep stages so we have data collected on our sleep and so one concern is how is this being used and by whom and not just now but like in five years ten years and so what in in a letter that was signed by over uh 40 sleep and dream researchers where we express these concerns is let us not wait like we did with other waking Technologies where now we go oh privacy issues and this and that where it's a little late let's try to be proactive and see what's coming down the line so I'll just give you two very benign examples but where again it's not clear when you even if you consent that you're aware of what you consent to so in one study that people smokers come into the sleep lab and unbeknownst to them while they were sleeping they got just for a very short period a pairing of smoking a smoke smell with either rotten eggs or rotten fish now this was just for a few seconds in one phase of sleep so it's not very long and when they woke up people in the morning they asked you know do you recall any stigma whatever most people did not but they were also had to keep track of their smoking and other behaviors before and after the study but just having this pairing which they were had no idea had taken place they diminished their smoking by 30 percent in the week that followed the study but even more worrisome because it's the power of your sleeping brain if you do this pairing while people are awake it has no impact on their smoking you can have people say what do you prefer Skittles or M Ms and people you know I prefer M Ms well you have them sleep in the lab and you just present tones with Skittles um over the night and when they wake up in the morning you ask them what do you prefer Eminems or Skittles go you know what I like Skittles more and you ask him why they go I don't know I thought I'd prefer the Menendez but now and so these are just trivial examples but last year uh at this uh American uh marketing convention where there's over 400 different marketing companies almost 80 percent of them said that in the next three years they are planning of developing using something to do with dream engineering or sleep manipulation for advertising so this is coming and our concern is not let's not wait to see if it works or not before we react let's try to be proactive and again it's hard for me to understand in many of our colleagues what exactly we are consenting to if things are done while we are asleep because when you are asleep you are not consciously aware of what is going on and you're often even amneshic for whatever took place and so that's to me very unique and the other place I I agree with Deirdre that there's a lot other concerns with waking and fake news and this and that but at least there you can mix our sort of informed decision or you are aware of what is going on or not ours to me Leaf should be a sacred Refuge like look you're messing with our minds and bombarding just sleep you know do you want to be dreaming and have advertisements you know on in your dreams or you know give me ten dollars and you'll have ad-free dreams um now this sounds like sci-fi but I don't really think it is if we look down five ten years at the the pace at which these Technologies are being developed now they can be used and are being developed for great reasons but like many things they can be used for good and for Less good and our point is just maybe we should take a step back and think about this and be proactive rather than reactive you know a decade from now so I have two two things I'd like to say back to that though which are first of all I don't disagree with the idea that none of those things should be allowed but I really I just keep thinking that maybe Tony and some of the others have really not read the current FTC guidelines about deceptive advertisement and convert covert advertisements legal experts go through it and it is not clear that it applies to what we do or not do while we are asleep and it's also that the it's aimed at the kind of advertisement that we are exposed to while we are awake and now we're talking about this how does this apply to tactile Sensations in your sleep how does this apply to VI you know there's many kinds of ways of engineering or manipulating uh sleep that we know that is going to be integrated in wearables in mattresses in smart devices and this is Beyond just what kind of advertising it's can we even manipulate this can we package this with other things and Adam Horowitz of MIT has even detailed here's many scenarios which are not that far-fetched and that you know if you even you consent it to this here's some of the consequences which no one could anticipate so it's not clear even what you are consenting and so yes the rules are there but like in many things like for copyright rules a lot of them had to be updated no one's saying well there's copyright rules so the artist should you know be okay with digital music or whatever so a lot of the laws we put in place were for certain circumstances certain Technologies these are evolving very quickly and maybe we should make sure that they are well aligned one with the other different experts because the ones I talk to say that it that they that the FTC has never been as specific as you can't do this during sleep or dreams but but it's stated in Broad and very general language and well listen there's always a gap between what the guidelines are and what's enforced so we have to think about that sense I aren't going to get around that yes indeed although the FTC slaps people advertisers with some amazingly High fines I mean that is why when when they write those fake news stories they put that paid advertisement thing up there pretty reliably because because you know they can be out of business with the size so Ken let's let me just get your perspective on this well I've I've taken the side with Tony I was one of the signatories and the reason is I think we need to as we make scientific progress continually think about the ethics and the ramifications of our work and so I think it's not a panic mode sort of thing it's just like well let's think through what our discoveries are going to lead to what are the unforeseen possible consequences and I think it's always important to think those through and whether it does require new laws well that's that's a later question for the legal profession to worry about but I think as scientists we're just wanting to be sure we're also always thinking through what's what's possible from the from the discoveries we make and how it could be misused yeah it was the call for action with the FTC that that uh all for Action was just one and to me really minor part and and so I don't want to over Focus the major part is here's a bunch of people working in the field and who are expressing concerns about what may lay down the pipeline and so maybe we should have independent of the laws ethical guidelines even as researchers as yeah no I actually think that more of that is being done with research subjects than than could be done with political manipulation or advertising so yeah I mean we do have a lot of research ethics guidelines but whether those need to be updated for the technology that exists and I think whether they need to be separate from dreaming what I think sci-fi is the comparison to the power of something discovered in for dreams and the power of what's happening with all this waking technology I I just I don't think is going to be cost effective to do it the dream way so there's something special going on in our sleeping brain that does not have the same effect when you do the exact same intervention while you are awake and there is our concern we have we're just starting to discover all the incredible things that the brain does while it sleeps and when we start manipulating and playing with that well it might have effects that are much stronger or different than when you do this in a way and so it's just again a call of well maybe this should get us thinking as scientists and as citizens of the world who are trying to develop techniques and see where is leaving us and how maybe we should be weary of these steps we're taking and to think through their implications clear to the point that matters to to all of you and I presume to the community of researchers more generally and definitely it needs is more thought and more discussion I do want to move on to one final question which is this so Tony you made reference to the fact that there was a time when dream research was perhaps not given the kind of attention that that it now seems that it really does deserve I'm wondering all of you do you feel that this research will ultimately give us insight into say the big questions of Consciousness the hard problem of Consciousness I mean there's been so much work done in the neural correlates of Consciousness when awake typically is this perhaps another part of that puzzle that really needs to be integrated to get the fullest understanding of Consciousness Ken maybe uh start with you well you know I I think if we're going to open up that keg of worms there's a whole lot to talk about because as a memory researcher I think we really gain a lot by understanding the difference between conscious memory and unconscious memory and in fact we sometimes make an assumption okay you go to sleep and you're not conscious inches and then you wake up in your conscious again I don't know that I buy that actually because what we know is when you wake up you don't have a memory for what happened during that intervening eight hours but it doesn't mean you weren't conscious during that time of course you were probably conscious of experience a dream at some point but even the other stages we don't know what conscious experiences were like at that moment we only know you don't remember them later so I think inferences about our Consciousness during sleeper on really weak territory if we only have the later report but I think there is to connect it to all the other research and Consciousness science of course we can bring to bear methods for looking at the brain and what is the brain doing in these different states and how does that relate to brain function and normal waking state or brain function during anesthesia or brain function during a coma and look for commonalities that try to help us understand what's happening in the brain during these times when you have the ability to have conscious experiences compared to other times where you seem not to have that ability so I think it it should be part of the broader picture but it's a big picture that we can hardly handle in the last year yeah sure absolutely but thank you for that Deirdre any brief thoughts on dreaming Consciousness yeah I mean I I really like that old-fashioned analogy about how science is like a bunch of people going into a dark room and feeling around for what's there and finally finding the light switch and turning it on that shows them another door that they can walk into another dark room that each each thing we discover like presents at least as many new questions that that we can explore so I certainly think that technology is taking off right now and some some of the future of of dream research in the near future is going to be about app apps and wearables um I really think that what's even more important is that some of the stuff that we have solid research on about some of the more low-tech method like which techniques of dream interpretation really are helpful to a client and which aren't and things like that dream incubation doesn't work all the time but it really can focus your dream toward topics and the low-tech version does well so I think that any sort of education on what we already know is the most important piece but I certainly think it's going in a a tech direction for at least so hopefully this program will help in that regard and Tony you want to take us out final thoughts on dreaming and Consciousness sure well I I view dreaming as a special form of Consciousness and again why does the brain create these experiences that that we can sometimes recall the interesting thing with dreams that you're you're com like you can compare what's going on or very soon what's going on in the brain the moment you become aware that you're dreaming so you have this Consciousness but then self-reflectiveness kicks in and so I think this kind of knowledge which we're slowly starting to piece together uh with Innovative not only techniques but methodologies experimental methodologies like the one Ken with this two-way communication with lucid dreamers will start giving us maybe a different as theater Saying A different light that goes on in a different area but also I think really offering answers that starts answering the question of dream Consciousness and then it allows us to see how does this maybe relate to different forms of waking consciousness and so I think it'll certainly help us maybe better understand what a big answer to such a big question as what is the nature of Consciousness during wakefulness might look like and what is satisfying in terms of explaining this phenomena well thank you all so much for this deep penetrating conversation on dreaming the brain Consciousness you know where where the mentating human mind meanders after midnight so thank you so much for joining us look forward to the results of your research going forward thank you very much sweet dreams thank you yes [Music] thank you [Music] thank you

Channel: World Science Festival

Views: 1,172,568

Keywords: The Dreaming Mind, Waking the Mysteries of Sleep, Science of dreaming, what your dreams mean, What do my dreams mean?, Brian Greene, Antonio Zadra, Ken Paller, Deirdre Barrett, consciousness, power of dreams, defining dreams, Why Do We Dream? prepare for the future, interpret your dreams, flying dream, falling dream, Fleetwood Mac, Dreams, dream science, sleep science, Why We Dream, Science Documentary, The Source of Consciousness, New York City, World, Science, Festival

Id: wvvovktKKa4

Length: 81min 58sec (4918 seconds)

Published: Thu Nov 17 2022