- Holy (beep) I don't even, I can't even wrap my brain
around this much of a performance difference from RAM. If you were to buy a computer today, it could easily be slower than
the same machine would have been just a month ago. And not a little bit, like 20% slower. As far as I can tell OEMs have known about this problem for a while. But they were planning on
just sweeping it under the rug in hopes that no one would find out. Unfortunately for them
Jarrod'sTech noticed that something was amiss. And after completing
our own investigation, we've come to the conclusion
that this issue could affect everything from laptops
to prebuilt desktops, to even your own custom built gaming PC. And the scariest part is that
almost no one includes this vital information on their spec sheets. Which means that you
won't know it's a problem until it's already too late. CableMod allows you to
personalize the look of your PC with custom colored sleeved cables. Try out their configurator and
build your cables exactly how you want with their
realistic cable preview. We're gonna have that linked down below (edgy music) On paper, the memory in these two systems appears to be identical. 16 gigabytes, 3200 megahertz, DDR4. But the one in the AMD system here is hiding a dirty little secret. It's density. I'll explain what that
means in a moment though, because I want to show
you guys something first. - [Alex] Uh, Do you want
to turn those off first? - Yes. We've already pre-tested
both of these laptops as they came from the factory and in our original video
about the Radeon 6800M, which is the GPU and our AMD laptop here. We said that it was slower than the RTX 3080 mobile because, Well, here are the graphs. Slower. But, watch this, we're
gonna swap these RAM sticks. We're gonna see if that changes. Interesting, isn't it? Even once we've dug into the system, everything about these
looks totally identical. That is, until you do this. Interesting. So the one in the Intel
system has eight chips on it. And the one in the AMD
system has only four. Also, if you look carefully at the specs, the one in the Intel system
says one rank by eight. And the one in the AMD
system says one rank by 16. It's unclear if this slate
change to memory module specs is going to be the norm going forward, or if it's down to the ongoing
worldwide chip shortage. But, what we do know for sure
is that swapping these memory modules makes such a
difference to performance. That honestly, if you told me a week ago that it was gonna be like this, I wouldn't have believed you. I'd have told you balderdash. And you guys might not believe me either. So, let me show you. Now, Alex pre ran this
stuff multiple times, averaging it out, blah, blah,
blah, scientific results. But this is my first time
actually getting to experience it. So I'm not, I mean, I
have his word for it but? Now something to note is that while I am expecting
this to help AMD, going to this better memory. I'm not necessarily sure
what to expect from Intel, because one of the theories is that due to the way that AMD manages memory, this problem could
disproportionately affect them while leaving Intel unaffected. which has led to some conspiracy
theories that it's like an industry initiative
to make AMD look bad. I'm not sure if I buy that but I guess we'll have to see the results. So, I'm sitting at 4964 on Intel. Wait, that is a lot better then. - [Alex] Oh, it's a bit worse. - [Linus] Oh wait, we'll how ... - [Alex] Mildly worse. - I'm at 5267 on AMD. Isn't that worse too? - [Alex] Yep. I don't know why, but that's consistent
with my test results so, - [Linus] So both of them get worse. - [Alex] Yeah. - [Linus] In Cinebench. - [Alex] Do you wanna do out of 64? - Yes, I would. I would like to get some
idea of what's going on here. Now, this is really interesting. It appears as though it's
not quite as simple as four chips bad, eight chips good. Because look at this, the Intel system with the
x16 memory modules in it has about the same latency as before, but suffers a precipitous
hit to memory bandwidth. That would explain why the
Cinebench score got worse. But then the AMD system, it gets a proportional boost to bandwidth. So the maximum speed
that you can write to and read to from the memory, but it's latency actually takes a hit. Which might explain the performance drop. We do know that AMD Ryzen is extremely sensitive to memory latency. - [Linus] Can I start with rainbow six? - [Alex] Yeah, sure. - [Linus] Let's start with rainbow six. This game started out
with about a 10% advantage for team blue. But let's see what a memory swap does. - [Alex] How good are your eyeballs at telling the difference
between 250 and 230 FPS Linus? - Not very. This one's more like gamer mode boosted. You can see more detail
in the shadows and stuff. So that might be part of just
a tuning process that they've gone through. I disagree with those
kinds of tuning processes. Whoa. I mean, we promised a 20%
difference in performance didn't we? Boy, did we ever deliver on that one ladies and gentlemen. That's a straight up role reversal. The AMD system is now 10%
faster than the Intel system instead of the other way around. - [Alex] Yeah, the AMD
one actually got exactly the same FPS as the Intel with that RAM. - [Linus] What? These frame times. So the peaks are not nearly as high. Like we get, wow! Look at this. We have regular frame times
that are above what the scale on our graph even is at on the AMD system. That's incredible. The mind blowing thing about
this is how strong that CPU bottleneck is. I mean, clearly the GPU, it's RTX 3080. It's capable of pushing
those extra frames. We saw it do it. But, that RAM bandwidth
is limiting the CPU's ability to keep up by that much. And wow, it happened again. Holy ... I really was not expecting this. I was expecting in a
more GPU demanding game, that the CPU bottleneck caused by this memory mismatch would
have been less of an issue. Holy (beep) this is mind blowing. Whoa, hey wait a minute. Here he's wearing different clothes. We just dropped 20% of our
performance on the Intel system, and just gained 20%
performance on AMD system. - [Alex] Yeah they just swapped. - [Linus] As promised
ladies and gentlemen, almost exactly perfectly traded results. Just from swapping out
the computer memory. You got to remember guys, these are completely different systems. Other than that, I don't even, I can't even wrap my brain
around this much of a performance difference from RAM. How did AMD allow this to
represent AMD Advantage in our initial look? All they had to do was upgrade the memory. And the craziest part is we
didn't have to look far to find more examples that highlight this problem. Look at CS GO for example, it's a huge performance lead
for the Intel Nvidia system until you upgrade the
memory in the AMD system, and all of a sudden, it's
within spitting distance. Now that's not to say that
there weren't exceptions. Dirt 5, for example, very
small performance differences going from one type of memory to another. And actually performance went
down a little bit with our x8 memory modules. Now that's weird. It could be that this particular
game is more sensitive to latency on our AMD system, but it could also be that it's
a more modern game with more modern techniques for memory management. Throwing a wrench into
that theory though is for Forza Horizon 4, also a newer game. But one that sees a huge
difference changing out the memory. I mean, this is mind blowing, right? The performance difference
in some of these games is comparable to going from
an RTX 3070 to an RTX 3080. Those two parts costs a
difference of $300 on Alienware's M15 R4. And for what? So that they could
potentially save a few bucks? I mean, it's not like these
manufacturers kit, you know, get the good stuff on Newegg
for about $45 dollars a stick. So what exactly is going on here? Well, I'm gonna explain
it to you like your five. Mostly because despite
talking to the big A's, ASUS, AMD and Anthony, nobody actually had a perfect
explanation for why this matters so much. So here's our best shot at it. You can think of your system memory kind of like a big library
where a whole bunch of ones and zeros are stored. Every time that memory is accessed, the memory controller built
into your CPU needs to track down where that data is and
either read or write it. Kind of like a librarian. By increasing the
density of the RAM to the point where you can get rid of
half the chips on the module. You're basically laying off
half of your librarians without reducing the number of books
that they need to take care of. This means that in some cases
it can take longer for them to retrieve your data. This manifests as higher RAM sub timings and your computer becomes slower. Now the existence of more affordable, slower RAM, isn't a problem. I'm all for consumer choice. The problem is that there's
basically no way of knowing what type of RAM you have without
opening up your computer. Like, to be clear, I'm not that surprised that the ASUS Strix Advantage edition has this budget RAM in it,
because it is a cheaper gaming laptop. It's currently $1650 US dollars while the ARS we compared
it to goes for $2,400. And as an end-user, I mean, you can substantially narrow
the performance gap between these machines for at most $90 dollars. Then flip your old
memory on eBay, I guess. It's inconvenient, but you're
still coming out ahead. The problem though is if
companies start putting higher density x16 RAM into laptops that previously featured x8 sticks. Because they almost
certainly won't disclose this change in the specs, and it causes a massive performance drop that won't have been captured
by reviews of those machines. I mean, imagine the commotion, if Nvidia randomly decided
that all 3080 laptops now can just use a 3070, because
it saves them $15 dollars. Of course pointing out problems without presenting solutions? It's not very helpful. So, here's what I think needs to happen. Going forward, I think laptops should have the density of their
RAM right in the specs. Because I mean, even from
a manufacturer standpoint, after watching this video, it seems like really smart marketing. If you're shipping x8 sodems,
the high performance ones. Put it on your product page so people know that
it's a quality product. And for any manufacturers who don't display this information. Going forward, we're gonna
make sure to let you guys know the RAM density of every gaming laptop that enters our office. So, manufacturers know that
even if it's not in the specs, when we see x16 RAM, you better make sure that
it's in a budget system that's designed specifically to help
our viewers put their extra cash towards an insulated
water bottle from lttstore.com. By the way I'm wearing the
RAM Hoodie V2 right now. It's coming soon. Interestingly though, RAM
density isn't the only controversial thing
that's holding back the Strix Advantage edition. It also suffers from having
no graphics switching MUX. And let me demonstrate why that matters. Inside this laptop are two GPU's. The integrated GPU that's
built into the CPU, that saves battery when
you're browsing the internet, reading PDFs and so on and so forth. And the real dedicated GPU that pushes them good FPS's for gaming, and sucks back a bunch of power. Now this sharing of the work
is great for the end user, but it does come at a cost. Most laptops are set up so
that the dedicated GPU is actually routed through the integrated GPU before it displays on
the built-in monitor. And there's a performance hit
from adding this extra step. High-end laptops alleviate this problem with a MUX, or multiplexer. A MUX is basically an electronic
switcher that allows you to input multiple signals. Then choose which one you'd
like to output at a given time. This allows a laptop to
choose integrated or dedicated graphics cards, without either of them routing through the other. Meaning you don't have to deal
with that performance hit. So, why doesn't the Strix
Advantage edition have a MUX then? It's cost. The answer's always cost. Adding a MUX is expensive because it requires a motherboard redesign, it adds complexity and it adds components. So ASUS and AMD clearly decided
they would rather sacrifice a bit of performance in order to hit that $1650 asking price. And I guess it is pretty sweet
that if you hook it up to an external display, you can actually beat the performance of a $2,400 dollar laptop. Look at that 135 FPS average. But it also means that the AMD advantage is more like an AMD compromise. And the specs of this machine
end up being misleading. and not one, but two major ways, that together contribute a 25 plus percent performance deficit in gaming. Which is what it's marketed to be good at. Now, hold on a second Linus, you said this can affect desktops too, and that's true, it can. Whether you're buying a prebuilt
or whether you're picking out the parts and
assembling your own machine. If you end up with x16 memory modules, you could experience a
performance difference. Just like we talked about today. One of the big differences
though on a desktop is that A. It's a lot easier to visually
inspect a module and see exactly what it is. And B. The specs that
the manufacturers provide are way more detailed. If I were to go on the
website of a reputable memory manufacturer like G.Skill or Corsair, I would be able to find all
the information that I need to understand the trade offs that I'm making. So I might say, okay, this
is gonna be a slightly slower memory kit, but I really
need the extra capacity that I get with that additional density. So I'm gonna pull the trigger on it. So, really then, while it
can happen on desktops, this is mostly, yet another episode of "Buying Gaming Laptops is Way More Difficult Than it Should Be!" which is terribly annoying,
because it would be great if consumers could just look
at the specs of the device and know how fast to expect it to be, instead of the complete
mess we have right now. Like if this keeps getting worse, I might have to just get a
Mac book and be done with it. Which, sorry. Yeah, no forget it. I mean, even if the performance
is trash, I'm still gonna, I like gaming. So I'm gonna keep doing
what I'm doing but, but I'm gonna be mad about it. And I'm gonna complain. Mine is the smart data assistant
that helps you discover where your data is and helps
you keep it where you want it. With Mine, you can
exercise your data rights and reclaim your right to be
forgotten by asking services you no longer use to
delete your information. With how many data breaches
there are these days. I mean, I don't know about you guys, but I don't want companies that
I don't use holding onto my data for no reason. So sign up and Mine will let
you know how many companies are holding your information. We ran our email and 155
companies have our data. Westjet? Can't remember the last
time I traveled anywhere. So there's no reason for them
to have our financial data. You can send an official data
deletion request directly from their app or from your inbox. And companies can confirm
your identity then and delete your info. Data deletion requests can also
be undone in the first hour if you regret it. So why wait? It's available for free for a limited time at the link down below. If you guys enjoyed this video
and maybe you like better news about laptops. Why don't you check out the
video where we showed off Cherry's new MX laptops, which is on Dell
Alienware's latest machines. They are really sweet.
Did anyone else struggle badly with reading the config labels in the graphs?
Those watermark-esque AMD/Intel logos behind the Notebook name and specs...
Having stock, fast, and slow ram didn't help matters either. Stock/Swapped or Fast/Slow would've been better.
Otherwise, on topic: that sure is a ridiculous difference. So much annoying nonsense for people to worry about (or potentially suffer significant performance losses).
What will this mean as we move to even higher density memory standards like DDR5?
So basically the 6800m is actually better than we thought.
Linus videos that deserve to be watched are the reason I wish there could be tolerances to subs’ no editorial titles rules.
Exactly what i said in the AMD sub:
AMD Advantage Program should have tighter tolerances, AMD is the extremely distant 2nd place in the mobile market and they need every single ''Advantage'' (haha) they can get.
imo AAP tolerances should apply to ram too, like this:
-Minimum 16gb(2x8) of 3200 (or faster ram) in a Dual Rank config
-Primary timings quicker than CL20 (19 or lower)
-Secondary timings properly tuned or binned
They also should add this to the program imo:
-Obligatory use of MUX switches
-Obligatory implementation of UHS-III (or better) SD slot
-All USB ports should be 10Gbps or faster
-NFC, Bluetooth 5.2 and WiFi 6e minimum
-2.5 Gbit NIC minimum
We definitely need much stronger consumer protections!
[removed]
literally AMD advantages LOL