The Beatific Vision and the Eucharist in the Theology of Thomas Aquinas

[Music] welcome to Christ the center your weekly conversation of reformed theology this is episode number 560 my name is Camden Busey I'm the pastor of hope Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Grayslake Illinois I'm delighted to be back today their good friend Glen Clary Glen is the pastor of South Austin OPC nope he's the pastor of Providence OPC in Pflugerville Texas just north of South Austin and sorry about that Glen welcome back to the program it's good to talk to you that's okay that's okay you could have confused me with much someone much worse Reverend Cassidy well it's good to be back thank you very much you know maybe you you participate in Jim and Jim a little Callaway Wow we got we got quite the episode today don't we it's a little bit unusual because we've already recorded the conversation and we're gonna play it for you here in just a second we I mean we recorded it just now so it's not like you're hearing us talk a week later so we're still kind of just in the in the aftermath of well that's a bad word it has a bad connotation we're still in the afterglow that sounds even stranger but we're having a just very excited and delighted about the conversation we were able to have with a very special guest dr. Laurence Feingold now you may not know that name if you're not a holistic scholar but dr. Feingold is associate professor of theology and philosophy at Kenrick Glennon Seminary in st. Louis Missouri he's earned a doctorate in theology from the Pontifical University of the Holy Cross in Rome and he's written a lot of books and articles but he's written two books in particular that we're going to speak with him about the first is brand new it's the Eucharist mystery of presence sacrifice and communion and that was published by Emmaus academic in 2018 yes yes I like how you have your copy of the book I'm looking see a second commandment I covered mine up for the video see who's more pious and the secondly wonderful book love this book the natural desire to see God according to st. Thomas Aquinas and his interpreters this book was published in 2010 by say PNG oppressed and there's another book by say P on Chia it's also very excellent by a dario speeds on o on the subject of the beatific vision yes very good so today we're talking to dr. Feingold about the connection between these two things now if people have been listening along to our programs of late you know we have a conference coming up very soon October 5th through 7th 2018 here in Grayslake Illinois and our subject is seeing God the deeper Protestant conception Aquinas Bart & Voss on the beatific vision and so it makes sense for us it's to you to speak with a well known and well celebrated Catholic scholar who is an expert on Thomas Aquinas and is published on Thomas's view of the beatific vision but what's quite interesting is his brand-new the book on the Eucharist is also right in that vein because what dr. Feingold is going to teach us is that for Thomas Aquinas the metaphysics and theology and the philosophy all of it of his belief is connected and some questions on that to come toward the end of the conversation but the question is what does it mean for us to see God well for Thomas it means that we return unto God as we have left him when he created us excuse me but we return unto God and we're reap rapport shinned and meaning were deified or divinized by participating in the divine essence now if you're wondering what in the world that means I need to listen to the to the rest of the conversation to hear about that a Glenn what what's just your what would you say to introduce someone to the conversation and just kind of whet their appetite for what they're gonna hear in just a minute oh it's absolutely fascinating topic I've been reading Feingold's two books he's a very clear writer by the way these are really enjoyable books to read and his book on the Eucharist is one of the best of books I have on the subject it covers the whole history of the Eucharist from biblical times through patristic age and you have lage that's and I have many and I read many on the Eucharist this is one of the better ones out there it's a fantastic resource so I do in commend are commended to our least listeners encourage them to pick it up he's presenting very clearly a Roman Catholic doctrine of the Eucharist one that is in full continuity with the doctrines that you find in the Council of Trent for example and in Thomas Aquinas and so that's his particular view on things and so when he assesses the Reformers and critiques the Reformers he's doing it from that Catholic perspective so keep that slide but these are fascinating topics it's really wonderful to study a theologian and philosopher like Thomas who is a brilliant thinker prolific writer easy to read I love reading Thomas I loved reading his sermons on the Apostles Creed his commentary on the Gospel of John you can find that online reading his same he's really easy to read but but the topics we're focusing on on the beatific vision in particular are so helpful to understand in order to grasp his system as a whole and the differences between Roman Catholicism the deeper Protestant conception and modernism you know maybe the deeper modernist concept exactly that's the other side that the Jim can inform us on really important so some information here if you'd like to visit us online Reformed forum org slash events slash conference or if you're on the home page or any of our pages you can look at the events menu at the top of the web website and head on over to the 2018 theology conference if you'd like to come and discuss some of these things this discount still open we're starting to fill up my wife was telling me my dear wife Erica she handles a lot of this registration and and we're starting to start and push the limits of our church auditorium so registration has been very strong people are gonna be coming so we would love to have more but you need to act soon because I don't know we might end up selling out that would be quite the experience but we're going to be speaking about all of these issues we've got a lot in store and I hope that people would understand that that you know we're we're not trying to present some sort of idiosyncratic view or that we as Van Til ian's somehow just have a giant ax to grind with Thomas and therefore can't read or interpret him correctly so I think in right anyways that we having dr. Feingold on I've been I I hope would be vindicated to some degree on this regard and we need to get down to the issue and we need to read Thomas for what Thomas says and not not read him you know through the eyes of Van Til or read him through the eyes of other Protestants or through the eyes of other people and that goes also for dr. Feingold but what we can find with with Feingold's writings is that I believe that he's treating Thomas very fairly and bringing to the fore some important and foundational aspects of Thomas's theology and philosophy for us and again there's there's great differences between us on some important points a doctrine that comes through in the interview so please spare your comments that say I thought this was reformed for I'm not Catholic for him well it is but we never promised that reform for them to only speak to reformed people but to speak to theologians and and people who are going to help sharpen us in our understanding and make us better theologians and followers of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and we believe this conversation with dr. Lawrence Feingold is going to do just that so with that I'll I'll head on over and play the recording so I hope you enjoy it and get a hold of us if you'd like to follow up Reformed forum work [Music] well dr. Feingold it's a it's a pleasure to have you with us thanks so much for joining us today and taking time out of your your teaching and your family schedule to speak with us so we're very much interested today to speak about the connection between the beatific vision and the Eucharist in the theology and philosophy of st. Thomas Aquinas there are a lot of people perhaps in our tradition who don't want to acknowledge the connection they're hoping to plumb that those depths today to demonstrate that they're all part of a whole that there's a very organic and cohesive nature to - Thomas's theology and philosophy on all aspects you can't just parcel him out locusts by or low side by low sigh but to get at that I think it might be helpful for us to speak about some basic and fundamental issues so that we can approach the subject correctly and I was wondering Larry if you could speak to us about the Exodus and and ready to structure or plan a pardon my Latin pronunciation I didn't do well in Latin anyway speaking about the basic structure because understanding that not only is helpful for not only understanding Thomas but the tradition and certainly when we approach the beatific vision we need to understand those things in order to see the big picture of what God is doing right right so Thomas Aquinas structures his great mature work this summer on theology and around that fundamental idea and going out from God and returning back to God and so the first part of the sermon looks at God and creation going out from God but all the rest of it that by far the greater part has to do with the return back to God and that being through the moral life through the theological virtues and faith up entirely and and through obviously Christ so that begins the third part of the soma as the bridge the mediator between God and man and then he treats the sacraments right after that as a continuation of Christ's humanity and to bring us back and to our source but to bring us back precisely and seeing him face-to-face and so the work would have ended with the last things so that's the Optra overarching plan and they think that's key for understanding I mean just God's plan in general what for understanding and the sacraments and the Eucharist in particular and so the Eucharist also has that same structure mm-hmm very good coming the Lord comes down to us to encounter us in the Eucharist but so that we can be brought back to him and that and I'm sure we'll talk more about that notion that would be the aspect of the mass and sacrifice which I suppose it would be a point of difficulty for yeah for us we can we can speak as scholars together and as people seeking the big picture here but also realizing that there's some incongruencies between our our statement of faith and that of the Roman Catholic Church no doubt I was a member of the CTSA for several years I just didn't keep up with my dues the last year so I had that politely decline but I very much enjoyed my interactions with Catholic theologians and and it's always been sharpening and sometimes we try to I I find that that there are certain people that would try to maybe sugarcoat the differences but I find it's much more helpful to get down to the core the core issues and speak deeply about these foundational issues so that we can you know that's a more fruitful form of dialogue I find so I'm hoping make it and that we're actually gonna do that today you know you spoke about the the we would say the Lord's Supper or the Eucharist but the mass as a sacrifice and how that's such an important point of our return unto God here in the in the holistic scheme but even before that I was wonder if you could speak to us in big pictures about Christ's presence you know why does why does Christ want to be present in the first place because that helps us understand that the nature and perhaps the Telos or goal of the of the Eucharist in the first place right yeah so and it's the same logic so you mentioned before the unity and so it seems to me that it's so important to see the unity of the different mysteries of the faith and so to see what we're talking about is the unity between the Incarnation and the Eucharist and then we can later connect it to the new mystery of Libya television so the the Eucharist and II and the Incarnation and have this same logic and the idea would be that the Eucharist prolonging the logic and not just the logic but the the human presence of the of the word incarnate throughout the life of the church so that we can continue to encounter him and so obviously in let me speak a step back of the sacraments one of the medieval theologians made a connection between the sacraments and the fundamental virtues and so the Eucharist gets connected with charity there as baptism is with faith so Luca says the sacrament of charity and spousal charity in the sense of himself giving love right Caritas that's also kind right so Christ is comes as the bridegroom of his church and so it makes sense that when the bridegroom is going to leave his bride with his physical human presence first and in the crucifixion but then forty days later in the ascension after the resurrection it makes sense that he would want to remain with his bride at the same time as leaving her I think it's really important to look at the fitting nosov is and he he wants to remain but it's better for us if he goes he tells us but it's also better if he be able to be read to remain but to remain in a way proper to a bride who's still in exile right so we're a bride the church exiled still we from the Lord walking by faith and so it's fitting that he remained with us with his human presence as a bridegroom with his bride but in such a way that we're still walking by favor and not by sight that would be the logic behind the real present and this would be a this would be a presence that is in a sense advanced it is it is greater than his historical presence on earth during his earthly ministry correct there's still in advance it's not quite beatific yeah yeah right so greater one-cent obviously in one sense not as satisfying make sure it's not as satisfying because the Apostles could see him and touch him Mary Magnum could kiss his feet and and we am can't so in that sense you know it's and so I want to say three things it's less satisfying in that sense because we can't see he's veiled it's the same presence because we believe that he's present with the same humanity that was conceived in Mary's womb and nailed to the cross and rose but better in a third way because when he walked the streets of Galilee and Jerusalem he could only be in one place and thus only encountered by few people and only some of the time and then others at another time and so he devised a way of being present to his bride that really respected the nature the universal nature of the bride that he wanted to be in all places and times and cultures so that so in the Eucharist he's divides the kind of presence which is the same presence the same humanity veiled so in that sense less satisfying to us but more perfect because mysteriously people of encountering us wherever there's a tabernacle and the Blessed Sacrament actually the understanding of the deep spitting this of the real presence spousal love the first requirement of spousal love would be to dwell with the beloved and to share laden so I said it continues the logic of the Incarnation because that was part of the fitting this of the word becoming flesh in the first place absolutely so along those lines then well I'd like to speak more specifically about the Eucharist and and focusing in on your book before we connect it back to the earlier book them the latest book here the Eucharist I'm very much like how you laid this out it's very organized you say you're writing in essence a text book of sorts for your students and I'm curious how this informed some of your decisions in the way that you structured and organized the book and you've divided it into four points can you describe four parts I'm wondering could you describe those parts to us and how those rightly flow forth from the way Thomas and the Catholic tradition treats this issue great great question so and the book has four parts but the in the title I only mentioned three so I'm going to start with the three that I mentioned yeah so it's the title is Eucharist mystery of presence sacrifice and communion and so of the four parts three of them are those presence sacrifice and communion and that's the second third and fourth parts of the book and that corresponds to a question that I raised in the first part which is then why did Jesus introduce and that's just as a general method that's how I'm Thomas usually begins treating a certain part of theology so let's say the Incarnation and the first question would be why why why do I want to become man and then from that answer to the why you can then come to understand and structure the treatise that's what I've done here and why did Jesus do the Eucharist and so my claim is for three reasons and it's the sacrament of love spouse love so to be with the beloved real presence but spousal love does another thing spousal love gives oneself the husband is called sometimes too and while always to give himself for the beloved and sometimes to the point of shedding one's blood so Jesus and shed his blood for us on Calvary and wants to prolong that sacrifice so that would be the second part Noah then the mass as p.m. quote-unquote prolongation or the mystery of making his sacrificial love for his bride present and that's a gift to the father's that's what I call the M the ascending dimension of Eucharist but M he gives himself not only for the beloved but also to the beloved and that's the dimension of communion and in giving himself to the beloved he also makes it possible for his bride the church to have communion among the members so it's the sacrament of vertical community with God but also the queasy Oh communion and so that the second third and fourth parts deal with the second part the presence the mystery of presence and that's the foundation and so we can't we wouldn't explain probably later on that we couldn't have it the same sacrifice of Calvary if we didn't have the same victim on the altar oh sure and thus we need his presence so the presence is the secret to the sacrifice and it's also the secret to communion because we receive and we believe that very same and victim who and was born for us died for us and rose for us here very good his humanity so that we can have a greater share of his divinity and then this part is laying the foundations right and that would be M the M sources in the Old Testament the New Testament Old Testament figures the New Testament texts and the treatment of the father's and and then the M the matter in form of the sacrament and you know that's why Jesus instituted in the way that he did your good well thank you very much Larry you talked about you have a lot of material in the book on the doctrine of transubstantiation which is a very very complex doctrine and one of the things that I found most helpful about the book about that particular section of the book is you explaining the difference between the doctrine of transubstantiation as understood by Thomas and defined dogmatically by the church how that is different than a physicist a pro CH to Christ mean look locally present I wonder if you can flush that out for us no pun intended but they flush that out for us today obviously a crucial point so the the disciples and in Capernaum in John 6 and didn't understand that point right and so many left him saying this is a hard saying and they left him he's a Mobley because they understood him to be speaking about eating him and in such a way that they would be making chewing part from part and and so clearly Jesus and so we want to say Jesus truly present in his true humanity but not present in the way that and a piece of meat can be dismembered and masticating and and this has to do with what I was mentioning before about he's present with the same humanity but in a better way in a way that enables him really present to all of us and in an inexhaustible way another in a way then by which we can receive him not just a piece of him but the whole of him present with the whole of him in wherever there's a consecrated Eucharist but and he thus therefore can be received with the whole of him I said that would be done he's in that presence so transubstantiation would be the way that he devised to become present in that better way and so here we make a distinction well so we need to make use of it the distinction there isn't in distinction between substance and accidents but we can simply present in terms of common sense the appearances of a thing mm-hmm right but that substantial presence of Christ is absolutely necessary for the second part of or the second purpose of the sacrament to be fulfilled and that is sacrifice right and also for communion to another one of the most helpful parts of your book was the concept of sacrifice as returning something to God that came from God and I think that fits in very very well with this doctrine of execution Retta to all things come from God and all things return to God and understanding the sacrifice of Christ as the supreme event of Retta tous Christ offering himself back to the Father to me is just fascinating can you elaborate on that for us sure so and and we she'd out from God right but God made us so that we can return to him through and human acts right and so those human acts would be act of and of love ultimately self donation of it God has made us through and a free gratuitous gift of love he's then once he's made us he's given himself totally to us in the Incarnation and we believe also the Eucharist but the logic of love and is that the soft they should be mutual now obviously here it can't be equal but mutual doesn't have to mean equal it can be proportionate with em God gives himself to us in a divine way the Incarnation the passion the Eucharist and we're to give ourselves back to him and in a way proportionate to our weakness and that I think humanity has always understood that we're called to to give something back and that's what we're called to get back we could sum up with and really the purposes of prayer and to adore him but be the first thing to get back to simply acknowledging his glory and then thanking him for everything that he's given us and then also expressing our contrition or sorrow and having offended seeking to give something back and to restore his glory that we've attracted and obscured made less visible by sin and so sacrifice is all understood I think by the religions of the world as a way by which we seek to do that incredibly imperfectly to offer some token of that and so human beings left for themselves our sacrifice is always going to be infinitely imperfect and so that's one of the reasons for the Incarnation is that Christ came so that he could offer the perfect sacrifice in which the victim is worthy and having the same thing it is as the offended party the father and the victim gives him back totally with nothing held back out of and the most perfect love and so Christ's sacrifice is the one true sacrifice that gives back that returns what what to be returned alright so Christ does it for us but again so if you want to give a gift to someone the best gift is to help the recipient give back and in so Christ wanted to give us the sacrifice in which he's not the only offer right that's really this is really important but Christ makes the perfect offering for us because he's our head he makes that offering he made that offering on Calvary as our head on all of our behalf but he also wanted us to join in the offering and the one thing we weren't dare at Calvary but even if we were there at Calvary and the offering would have well he wanted all you manage to join in that offering is to continually be able to offer a more perfect offering of ourselves of our life and so then the math understood as sacrifice is a two-fold offering Christ being offered to the Father the same as covering except that he doesn't die again out if we will come back to that point and now glorious and right but there's this difference that we get to join in and offer our Christian life with them as as an act of gratitude I mean that's part of the ready to return that's right an actor and so in the Eucharist understood of sacrifice we can see there are two things being offered the infinite perfect victim Jesus Christ and he's present there to be offered through the real presence that we just spoke about yeah but there's also our addition which we're joining as it were and our addition is finite and imperfect but it's valuable to the Father even though it's fun an imperfect compared to what the beauty is we get to join it together and that it be offered simultaneously and with the perfect offering so that's the logic yeah behind which the Catholic tradition is understood the mass as a sacrifice sure in the bubble of Christ's sacrifice but it's our joining into it with our lives yeah and then it know everything mmm oh then it returns us back within within the understanding that God created us created human beings this man made in His image and so we proceed from him in a sense I'm not using that in a Trinitarian way although that's not unrelated because of the processions of the persons of the treaty but we go out from God Exodus and then through the work of Christ and can now return to him ultimately in consummately in the beatific vision it definitely is a very cohesive system and it seems to me to make sense that Thomas's metaphysic and his philosophy here are clearly informing in sacrament ology that these two are not separable there's there's often a problem with or a misunderstanding I should say of Protestants misunderstanding the Catholic teaching on sacrifice and caricature izing it as a constant Reis accra fie seing that every time the masses observe that Christ is sacrificed again that's not precisely correct at least in my understanding and in reading the Catechism in others and yeah exactly many Catholics laugh at that but I'm telling you this gets repeated all the time so it's my charge often in teaching on this to say Catholics do not teach this and teach XYZ but but it's really important that we would understand as well the the unity of that act of consecration and the participation in the Eucharist with the historical event of of the once-for-all sacrifice of Christ what what are the philosophical I know it's a broad word but what are the underpinnings okay the the logic of of how are we caught up with this once for all historical event because it's not a repetition of the event but it's the event we're there presently you know in a way when we participate right so this is one of the most difficult and beautiful questions about Eucharistic theology that we want to say it's the same sacrifice and as Calvary but not in every way and therefore it doesn't involve so the Council of Trent that and kind of encapsulated the Catholic teaching on this and speaks of it as the same because we've got the same victim and so that's its resting on the doctrine of the real presence so if Christ becomes present on the altar where he wasn't in his humanity and now we have the same victim and we also have the same place because Christ is the one eternal High Priest and so he acts through his ministers so he's we've got the same priest and victim in every mass as on Calvary and we have the same intentions because Christ today as then is equally animated with his love for the glory of his father and with his love for the bride us the church and so the same intention to offer himself and for the glory of God the Father and for the redemption of the sins of his of his bride and the application of the merits that he's one person Calvary to us today so the same we could say the same intentions but it differs in that as the letters in Hebrew says having died once he dies no more and therefore is not killed again in the mass actually death and takes place once only 2,000 years ago and any in his presence now is that of his glorious risen Humanity in the Eucharist actually becomes present Eucharist as he now is but nevertheless and he's willing to sacramentally represent the moment of his bloody death in every mass and that's why he chose to institute the Eucharist under the appearances of bread and wine which represent and and become his the substance of his body and blood and so on Calvary his blood got physically separated from his body bringing about his death as any sacrificial victim and would be and in the mass he dies no more physically but he's sacramentally represented and the separation of his blood from his body by having a dual consecration first of the bread into his body and then of the wine into his blood so sacramentally in other words under and this sacramental signs and he's represented his bloody death but it's not physically repeated and this general principle and sacramental theology that the sacraments do what they represent but mysteriously and so if his his passion is represented sacramentally it's made present really but again and in a in some more perfect way so just as we said his presence is real it's the same unity but in some sense more perfect because without the limitation of being only one one place and therefore not another kid to his death is made present but without the limitation of being crucified again his death has made present in the way proper to historical event now that's mysterious and other historical events can't be present in many times they happen once and they happen because they have a finite effect and yes they're part of their effect can be made present later but just a part of a finite value but because Christ is not a man all the deeds that he did in his humanity are deeds of the second person of the Trinity and thus with an infinite power and efficacy and unlimited and if that's true of all of the deeds of Christ's life and how much more of the most central deed of shedding all his blood for love for us so we since that act Christ's passion is the act of a divine person in his humanity it's an act that can't be limited in its power and efficacy to one time in place and thus transcended and therefore can be applied throughout history to our present in every moment of the church's life you're just mentioning the application of the death of Christ to us I wonder if you can comment then on the effects of the Eucharist on the faithful who receive it in communion the communion with Christ and before okay well I mean before I didn't for their there's a two-fold effect of the celebration of the of the sacrifice of the mass so and I'm going to use again the Exodus redditors language there's an ascending effect and did descending we could say so the ascending effect of every time the mass is celebrated is that them there's a glorification of God being given because principally because Jesus Christ Himself is offering himself not dying again right not died only wants but he's truly presently altered and he's present precisely as the victim of Calvary whose by persons and risen so he's present offering himself and that gives got an infinite glory but it's also make it's a fitting occasion for God to send Grace's down upon the earth so this is why and the mass is always been see offering the sacrifice of the mass is seen as M obviously we're not God is free but if there's a fitting esteem and bestowing in abundance graces on our very needy thirsty world so that's a Grace's that come to the world and it has come to people perhaps in not present of that mass and the grace of conversion coming to someone who is far away on the occasion of that mass being offered that'll be one kind of effect we could call the ascending glorification but then there's the second fruit and that's as I say Holy Communion and so here the fitness that we received the same victim that we that has just been offered and we show it now we can speak about Holy Communion and so the Christian life we speak about Exodus and relatives but in reality it's um maybe it's better a spiral because the it continued continuously comes around again okay we've come out from God but he's giving and he gives himself to us so that we can give ourselves back and but we don't do it perfectly and so he comes to us again and we give ourselves back to him again and so I like to speak of the Eucharistic life the Eucharistic life as a life in which day after day week after week them Christ we offer him for the glory and father to the to the Father we offered the son to the Father and ourselves with him and then we received the very from the father the same son and he feeds us with better dispositions so that tomorrow next week I'll be able to offer myself oh boy better with a better Christian life yeah as a living sacrifice like Paul says and right well and so it's right so it goes so that's why I like the image of a spiral or simply an a cycle of Exodus and rheticus of and he thinks Oh God the descending movement would be God coming down to us and that would be first the real presence well even before that his word so his word coming to us the Liturgy of the word and him coming to us with his presence on the altar but then there's an ascending movement and that's our offering him and ourselves with him and then he offers himself to us now totally in Holy Communion but there's this principle in a metaphysical principle everything is received according to the mode of the receiver and so that means that even though I'm receiving the infinite victim Jesus Christ I'm still receiving him very imperfectly his might of the imperfection of my heart but his goal is to expand the mode of the receiver day-by-day yeah I had a question for you on that exact point wondering at what point does the process or the activity of re proportioning occur because this happen at the point of a persons having faith in Christ and then participating in the mast is there's one begin to be reprimanded the Christian life either upon death or upon Christ's return how are we to understand that metaphysic right no not not we want to the reapportioning has to take place shouldn't ya in god's plan take place earlier yeah in fact that the bear was my understanding brain well it's the hope right so the whole of this life is an opportunity for us already now to be living a human divine life that's what it means that's how we understand being in a state of grace or being justified and so being justified enables us already now to live a life in which we're sharing obviously instantly imperfectly but in his knowledge to say and in his love through the theological virtue of rubber chest and certainly so yes it's got it but it's meant um since we're participating we finite are finitely participating in infinite love our participation is never going to exhaust that's the understanding the greatest possible understatement yeah right no matter how much we grow theirs into a more that for us to grow and so the idea is that the whole of this life would be the time of a continually better and proportioning with the infinitely disproportionate God and in so Jesus Christ Humanity as the bridge because his humanity is the perfect participation in his divinity yes so sharing the divine life we're sharing and in what his Jesus's own humanity most perfectly shared and so how fitting it is that the the fundamental principle of receiving us with His divine life be feeding us with his flesh in other words with his humanity that had the perfect participation and so has the perfect participation in his divinity and so that's a definition of divinization or deification correct right so sharing in the divine wise which has to begin with the forgiveness of original and grave personal sin and with would be incompatible with that divine life and so it begins in a particular moment and so the Baptist of a baby and the justification of an adult and but it's then meant to grow actually grow in our participation in that divine life and hopefully and you know kind of with increasing velocity although it often seems of the exact opposite is happening sure so that would be that the call of the Christian life because the more we participate the more we become capable of participating still more that would be the spiral idea hmm well we could say vital circle so along those lines maybe to speak and connect a little this has already been connected several times over so and I'm still fascinated with everything you have to say but to connect it a little bit more explicitly for our listeners to the earlier book on the natural desire to see God according to st. Thomas Aquinas and his interpreters can you speak to us about that's a very technical phrase a natural desire it's it's not just thrown out there you're speaking about a very specific issue that arose with I'll read the luboc and and others that really raise this issue but here's the big question then how in what way to do humans as created desire that reddit ooze desire that spiral in that and then that possibility of seeing God and and not only in what way but I mean and how does how does that develop is it there at present is it some sort of thing to strive for I'm curious to begin you know discussing a little more of the basics of that natural desire right so it Thomas Aquinas throws that out that concept in various articles where he speaks about and beneath what is perfectly attitude and so it uses that and the notion of a natural desire to answer that question and so and so a lot of things to say here and you know how to separate them a lot similar and on the one hand so there's a huge debate about what exactly so st. Thomas comes out with this thesis that perfect happiness and can only lie in the vision of God because there's a natural desire for it and if M if it's that desire is frustrated we can't be perfectly happy in the sense that all desire is met so that's kind of how he lays lays it out in one of his articles and but he describes this desire in rather intellectual terms and he gives the example of them so we all have the natural desire to know and to know the causes and essences of things right into the three over there question why and you can see that a three-year-old has a natural desire to know and he's not satisfied with knowing particulars he wants to know their causes and the cousin of their clothes etc and this desire can only come to rest in knowing the very first cause god and the very final end god the first truth the first beauty but even knowing that there is a God the desire doesn't come to us because we want to know him and she is we want to know him in his essence and the problem is all of our knowledge in this life falls short of that and in fact infinitely because yes we can know that there is a God the reason we can know things about God that he's perfected that he's the truth but I can't know him the way that he's the truth because I'm still knowing him through the imperfect and so I can knowing that he's beauty with a capital B but when I think about that I'm just going to think about the finite beauties that I've seen and say he's one he's better than that so I can't know him and she is and I desire that right and so that's that's how he lays out this natural desire and it may be that most people aren't thinking about this so and that would be obviously a bad thing so we want to say I'm one had everyone naturally desires this in some sense if they were to think about it they would naturally decide over if they were to consider yes wouldn't it be good to see beauty with a capital B the ultimate player talks about this in his dialogues consent symposium there's a beautiful interchange between Socrates and the priestess do team are not children right and in which she kind of pointed that question to Socrates then what would it be like to see beauty unveiled beauty with a capital B the very idea of beauty and so that would that's the natural desire to see God that he's it comes up in that dialogue of Plato but yes it for most people in Stormin they're not thinking about it right they're seeking other things sure so that's why it's really important that to consider this desire as something that needs to be woken up in p.m. and that's part of this the very vocation I would say all philosophy and theology to wake up that desire in people and of preaching that's the goal of preaching to in Kindle letters are now once we haven't woken it still has various stages and so it will exist in a different way in someone like Socrates who doesn't know about revelation then in somebody who has Christian faith and knows that Christ has promised that we will see them as he is and and so that it becomes hope so the virtue of hope is the natural desire to see God as it exists and those with Christian faith but even there and there's a place for growth because somebody who doesn't yet have lovin kindled and that's obviously in a minute less perfect way I might desire as my perfection but when love is kindled we desire to see God for his glory and so that him and the more we love him the more we want to desire seeing God's glory justice mercy love etc and so there's no end to how much it should grow in us so that's kind of my pieces so that it's something that's am elicited by considering this good of seeing God it's changed by faith that it's possible and that it's promised to us in Christ and then it grows by and the more we love him you raise up an issue here a rather large debate among many till mystic scholars and that's what Thomas actually means by natural desire you say there are the two options it's either an elicited act of the will following on natural knowledge of the good or it's a natural appetite as found in lower nature prior to any knowledge it's more of an innate appetite what why is that an important debate and and what are some of the consequences of either view and and what stand do you take and right yeah great question and so these articles of st. Thomas where he speaks about this were commenting on by by Thomas and then there was a kind of a rival interpretation by his code ists and birth in the Franciscan tradition yeah and so it became the subject of debate and for seven centuries so we find a debate M in the time of stories and it gets rekindled in the sixteenth century and and so is a huge debate in the 16th and 17th centuries and then maybe went somewhat more in dormant and it bursts out again in the twentieth century and in a whole series of articles by various Thomas on this and at the peak of that kind of early 20th century debate regional back and we made the debate get even more passionate on both sides and so the two sides of this debate are actively with two technical turf that are hard to explain but which you just mentioned whether this debate is a did and sigh whether this desire is something elicited by knowledge so that's why it's called an elicited desire and a desire that and is drawn out by reflecting on God and his the fact that he's not yet that he's hidden from me in other words that there is a God whose the first truth beauty and goodness and I want to see him but he's hidden and as long as we walk in pilgrimage in this life and so that so that's my so I fight with that claim that it's a desire that's drawn out by considering and that there is a first beauty using goodness who's hidden for us the other side of the debate would say it's simply an innate desire and the desire for God because God made us for himself so that sin Agustin gets quoted the beginning of the confessions you've made us for yourself and our hearts are restless until they rest in you and of which with which I entirely agree of course but Neverland often the desire often gets interpreted as something simply written into our being because we were made in His image and likeness sure I've done it it's true I want to also agree with that absent the desires in us because we're made in His image and likeness but what I think if you consider it as an innate desire just simply written into us it could be interpreted as if it were something like M gravity just simply pulling us and to God in a way that wouldn't be fitting to our nature and so our nature is one in which our desires you can't love what you don't know and so our you properly human loves presuppose knowledge knowing about the good and that's why a higher value that of faith gives this desire new power and force so I think it's important that we understand this desire as brought about by knowledge because again it's a desire proper to human being as a human being and therefore proper to unity here as someone capable of receiving face em and actually receiving it and therefore hoping in this seeing God in a way proper to someone who's received God's own promise that he will bring us there did she well there's so many so many themes here that I found you know I did my doctoral work on Karl Rahner and I'm not at all connecting you to Hunter here so don't don't if that's the case I know my mutual acquaintance Matthew levering we have a distaste and mutual distaste of Rahner that's I think equal but I very much appreciate runners you know what he's developing I disagree very sharply with his conclusions but the questions he asks are often very useful but he has so many themes there that are so interesting and and similar regarding something he calls the for graph off essay that the pre apprehension of being probably even more specifically something he calls the supernatural existential but it's this idea that human beings as created human beings are basically the the the divinely intended recipient of God's communication of self and so we're created specifically to receive God's self communication and so it's interesting for me to compare Ron or to many of these themes in Thomas and of course Ron er was very much working with Thomas as well although he kind of hijacks it with with some existentialist philosophy but I was heading somewhere with this a great concern for honor a great concern for honor is maintaining God's freedom he has to maintain human freedom and divine freedom at the same time so he wants to make sure that this mutual this communion between them is not an obligation of any of either side and that's something you write about in the book too and and because there is a concern among some scholars that if human beings do have this natural desire to see God it's built in or 1/8 in some way that every single human has it by virtue of their created and if human beings are an exodus from God with an intended Rhetta tus would that not compromise for some the gratuitousness of God and perhaps even the supernatural order in other words just for the listeners does that obligate God to save everyone if they're a legitimate human being you know a human being yeah great question it's complicated question so um and runner would actually pull more on the opposite I find myself and rather strongly disagreeing with his take on this question well we have one thing in common which he just mentioned and the desire to save the gratuitousness so let me backtrack a little bit and runner enters into this debate Carl honor and by responding to unreadable box proposal the internet or the blog and hi so he loved this notion of the naturals artists to God and then so he greatly highlighted and emphasized it but he sees it very much as an innate and desire the desire written into us at our creation and a desirable that gives us an unconditional and movement to and the beatific vision and from that start it seems so i wanted to then so my criticism of that view of de l'eau box before i get to honor and is that i mean yes i very much agree with seeing the important to the matches are see god I think it's a mistake to view it simply as from the start this unconditional written in because doesn't seem to give enough space to the the elements of growth that I was trying to mention earlier mmm and secondly by speaking of it as natural and yet for seem to overlook a natural disproportionality that wouldn't have with God and so we're how could we as infinitely as finite infinitely distant in nature have an innate desire for the supernatural without the supernatural or T having been given to us through justification so that's kind of one of the problems that yes after we're justified by baptism and after we received faith and hope and love then yes now it is not totally disproportionate because we already once we have the divine life in us then it makes sense that there would be an innate movement on our part as well as an illicit movement to the beatific vision so that's kind of a problem that runner jumps in on Serano wrote an essay and four years after and the new boxer not Darrell and the same year that and and Magisterial document bomani generous and came out criticizing de la Bach for compromising the gratuitousness of grace with his idea that God couldn't make us and not for anything less than the big television because from the start according to the robach that's written on the inscribed in us as our finality so runner said no then - and the twelve is right in criticizing and we do block for compromising to dismiss but the loboc would be very much right to insist that we concretely have this unconditional desire from the beginning right it's just that it shouldn't be considered to be natural we should consider it right from the start and therefore before baptism to be in us by a kind of grace and that's where he uses this strange expression the supernatural as extensional exactly explain that no isn't right so right from the beginning of our existence from conception we're already not just natural beings but we're already and given this supernatural and substantial which gives us the desire to see God in this additional way that and de Labarre spoke about now I have a problem with both of them mentioned but my bum with her honor is that he's giving us this proportionality with the divine life and this is unconditional movement that doesn't need to be ignited by baptism and say and so he's not given so little we can reconnect this to our earlier discussion of the sacraments of Eucharist he's he's given us something that's properly given to us by the sacrament runners assigning it to us at our conception and I think there's a huge problem at CERN for all kinds of reasons I mean original sin being the first but then the whole meaning of the Christian life and therefore the importance of receiving explicit faith and hope and of the sacramental life as nourishing the and changing modifying this natural desire making it from something that was purely elicited and maybe you know a wish it would be nice to see God is such a thing were possible but I'm the reason to think it's possible if I'm an atheist and to making it and absolute desire once I come to recognize that God has promised to me and then giving it and and then they make force once I'm given the divine life in justification so Ranas way of understanding this rightly criticized I think one aspect of the Robox teaching but totally missed and key elements of the Christian mystery and particularly the importance of the sacrament in giving us progressively a share in the divine life now and therefore nourishing the natural desires you got enough day-by-day yeah we we we don't want to keep you too long because we're already Rania over the time that we committed to where we we don't have to go anywhere so I just want to give you the freedom if you need to get going but if not then I would like to ask at least not maybe two more okay I'm okay well we don't want to take the whole afternoon even though we we could and we'd like to talk to on that point I'm curious because one of the when the more the sharper differences that we can find with theological anthropology between the reformed tradition and the Catholic tradition on this has to do with image of God but specifically with the donum superadded tomb and so I would very much be interested to learn from you here at what point do you see the donum fitting in with regard to this natural desire and how you know I know these are enormous questions but but and how the sacraments then perhaps fulfill a place originally intended for the donum it was lost at the fall but now the sacraments you know are given as a way for us to be reproduce back to God we reordered reward big question yeah so right so man in the in God's recent plan in the garden was created in His image and likeness and some of the father's like Origen see that not just as a semitic parallelism but the fact that was said to be made in His image and likeness and two levels of image and likeness knack nature and grace right so that would be and and then King Thomas kind of really develops that and with his and right sometimes I could say gives the kind of the most complete explanation of those two levels of being in God's image and so we're in His image simply by having reason and free will and the capacity to know the truth and to love and to have conscience and self-determination but and we're much more in his likeness by and sharing in his knowledge through faith hoping in him as our final end with an in an unconditional way in a firm and efficacious way made possible by faith and then sharing in his love and so being in a state of grace would be and the likeness that Adam and Eve were created in originally restored alright and so Christ came to repair man restoring the supernatural likeness to his wounded image and the means the principal means that we could say the ordinary means by which he does that are the sacraments are there of the New Covenant and so beginning baptism being in the beginning so the justification coming to us not that God can't know we don't want to say that God can't work outside the sacramental order and thanks be to God we believe that he does and and that would be where desire and it can bring about it can anticipate and it's grace being applied even before sacraments are received benevolence the sacraments remainder and we could say the ordinary way by which that likeness is restored progressively and so beginning in baptism but then culminating with the Eucharist and the fact that hubris is frequently received being a way of being constantly nourished in that divine life and so sometimes beautiful article on why seven sacraments so here to another difference but to em and he sees to his answer goes along the lines well in our natural life we had many needs in our natural life so it makes sense that in our life of place in our supernatural life we have more than one meet our first need to be born but then we need to move and grow to maturity we need to be nourished we need to be healed if we've gotten sick and to prepare for that final encounter that would be an anointing of the sick and then because man is a social being and to sanctify marriage and to sanctify headship in in the church for the seventh sacrament and in all of them and they're all instituted to nourish grace but in different ways according to these different needs in our supernatural life hmm yeah all the sacraments would be key roles key means of initially giving and then restoring if we lost it that would be the second dependent and nourishing and the life of grace so that it flourishes more every day so do do image and likeness correspond to net the natural and supernatural orders then likeness we can use it that way notice we don't have to say that that was necessarily the the intention of the sacred author Shirin but we can it's a useful pedagogical tool and and it certainly and is there in the plan of God there's no doubt about that that a two-fold likeness to himself Q&A sir which remains even after grave sin another it remains in the sinner who's unrepentant right there's still a like a likeness I'm sorry not there's still an image oh yeah it's totally it's been faced and wounded but fortunately not totally totally destroyed because then there could be no conversion so quick question here so it so is the down on the donum is it defined would it be properly defined as the infusion of the theological virtues of faith hope and charity yeah say and understood in the Catechism it's flowing from or I should say in the holistic tradition it's rolling from sanctifying grace okay thank you fine grace faith hope and charity would all come to us simultaneously and sanctifying grace restore giving again I can give it I can speak about it but I can't understand really what I'm saying because of the greatness of the mystery that it gives us finite human beings some mysterious proportionality with our supernatural end and the divine life and that's true then and the divine life God is love charity flows from grace the donor then the donum then orders us toward perfect beatitude Andry proportions us to attain that end otherwise we wouldn't be able to achieve it okay right but obviously we need to be progressively so it has to have a beginning that would be justification but it - growing us throughout the Christian life yes okay yes thank you the cage progressive sanctification good now I have at least one one final question and it's probably the it's probably the doozy of them all but as I'm reading a lot of the literature reading your two books and reading books by Daria spits on oh and Dominic leg trying to get to the bottom of these issues on beatific vision specifically we've been speaking a lot about participation and that's not just a vague word that's a very specific and technical metaphysical word almost it has some significant meaning and to my understanding reading Thomas himself and also reading these excellent secondary authors or authors of secondary literature I I'm I'm I my understanding is you're in the beatific vision we participate in the divine essence so it's not a different God we're participating in God we become partakers of the divine nature if we want to read second Peter 1:4 in that in that way but the difference here because the question here regards the creator creature distinction and there's always a proportionality we're never we never become God himself because he is he subsists the three persons the hypostasis of the trinity subsist in the divine essence whereas we who have returned to God in Retta twos we participate so I'm wondering if you can help me to understand the metaphysical specifics the philosophical difference between subsistence and participation such that participation does not compromise the creator creature distinction whereas if we were to say we subsist in the divine essence that would be a very problematic statement right right so the beauty of organization is and so I'm going to add something to your question correct me and well good no no that was a great question so and there's it didn't end the we the creature I are brought into this participation of my life in the aspect of a spousal relationship and so it's true so I want to put in the inter personal nature of this into kind of in framing the problem and so and our participation of my nature is that of a spouse or son you know the bride bridegroom son father relationship and and the beauty of this divinization is that we don't simply replace God but we're brought into this relationship of mutual self donation and in it though it remains infinitely unequal but at the same time infinitely intimate so that we don't lose our identity and this is a and another phrase in the camp in that used by the pilots like san agustin topic stay yeah so an human being made in God's image and likeness and is capable of God and that's a mystery right we that's in some sense it's the same mystery as grace that we remaining who we are remaining with a finite human nature are capable of entering into this intimate union with God and already here we're participating right so the participation begins with baptism not and we don't have to wait to heaven and to be a division and so already we're participating in tape open love and in heaven will be participating in knowing God as he knows himself and so the mystery is that we can remain who we are and be brought into this union and that's deeply fitting because it's the union precisely of two who remain two bridegroom and bride father and son and yeah I mean we can speak about it but we can't it's rightly understand what we're saying participation sure because it's so such a glorious mystery that we remaining human beings can participate in this way of knowing and loving and and that's why there are infinite because it's a participation there are infinite grades and those are grades exist in this light and that's we're men this is the time of growth so we're called to grow passing from one grade from grace to grace as it were yeah and in heaven there's no more no but nevertheless all the blessed will be in different grades of glory and so humanity of Jesus Christ the top the greatest great and then and mary and the saints and angels and each in a different place and so there's a beautiful variety in the heavenly church as there is on earth and yet again the paradox is that even though there were all it will be different grades each one is full and i see yes the divine essence it's not we're not participating in different essences it's just in different different grading in the we're all seeing the one word and we're all participating and so so I added in a relational dimension and I think we can add a Trinitarian dimension as well and that would be that in knowing God so the beats of envision is a certain sharing so the beautiful vision will be seeing the word and directly the word so will be knowing the word as the father does is it works so there's a participation in some very mysterious way in the very procession of the second person from the first seeing the word and in loving so the light of heaven will be seeing and loving I will love totally what we see and so it will be the supreme participation in divine love which we've already begun here but will be full in heaven and full each and our measure and of getting back and so there would we back to their Exodus redditors as it were or better yet but ascending and descending yeah so the descending would be seeing we're receiving in seeing we received what we're seeing into our minds and again that seems not up that's incomprehensible that the word can be received in that way so there's a response right that's the mystery the beatific vision but then that calls every for a response and that response will be the beatific love and we can see there certain participation in the precession of the third person their personal charity charity so the exit twos ready to smote 'if that we see in the Eucharist ultimately goes back to the exit to strata tous within the Trinity odd intra the processions of the person's right right and therefore the life of heaven and the link between them is the executors attitudes and the missions the divine missions right right so it's big I mean it's eternal life of God the life of the Blessed Trinity and so it makes sense that all of his work in creation and bringing us back to him in Redemption will respect those two movements that are linked to the two processions in his eternal Trinitarian life well this is fascinating knowing and loving yeah so I have two very easy questions Camden if I can ask them okay we mainly quite an entire that's very good so as I read Thomas and I've been reopened reading Thomas all year this year and reading books about Thomas the best of the secondary literature on Thomas including your books what I see is an air-tight system everything hangs together everything fits together just beautifully and perfectly and I cannot say as some people would say that we love Thomas we just don't like his doctrine of justification or we don't like his doctrine of the sacraments we think that's a weakness or an error and so they want to take Thomas piecemeal and only take some of him I don't see how that's possible I think his system is is a coherent unit so my question is is that how you read Thomas okay great question and I don't think Thomas would have been comfortable with that description an airtight system oh well and because I mean modern philosophy I think has I mean starting with Descartes Hegel would be the pinnacle of a system now I know that's not what you meant in your right but I think Thomas is I mean kind of the beauty of this spot is its intrinsic openness and therefore its constant desire to grow through dialogue and with very disparate thinkers very disparate traditions and so there's also at the same time as and I do I absolutely agree with you yes there's a coherence there he's trying always to see the whole and that's proper to the wise man and I love seeing Thomas because he's so much to me embodies wisdom wisdom coming a picture of ourselves the wise man is you can order all things but never less it's an attempt to order that's always opened and glowing and therefore never a system that becomes airtight and of course assuring we don't have to order to do it right so I consider myself very much a Thomas and yet there's some things that I wish he had and differently because I think he'd always take into account Oh in each individual case perhaps some of the great principles that are at the foundation of the of the overarching coherence mmm everything good well thank you second really quick question I had was when I read Thomas and compared his teachings to the Council of Trent I see full continuity between those two and I'm wondering if you you also think there's continuity particularly in the doctrine of justification sacramental theology and these other things that we've been talking about today between Trent and Thomas yeah absolutely and it was very profit so I believe that Trent happened when it did from the point of view of developments in Catholic theology so it was Oh after the deafening Thomas and home ISM was not driving there was a long period in many of his speeches were condemned three years before his death and there was then a very opposite movement and nominalism and volunteers and etc that dominate catholic theology produced centuries and it's really with the 16th century that there was a revival of chromosome and Thomas has thought leading in the fifty years before the Council of Trent and but in the council them it was there was a great truth from that to mr. roboto and in fact the story goes that and the council fathers had the Bible and part of pen roars I don't know crit also the Pope's and then the summer theology as they're three a conic reference points well yes it's very I think that's true that it's deeply profoundly domestic but again in that sense of not wanting to not in the technical sense of where Thomas were divided necessarily from other schools because the intention of the Council of Trent was and not to decide an intra Catholic right so there's a lot of questions in theology that and it's good that they remain open questions so they can you can discuss them and and so the council tried didn't try to decide those in atomistic sense mm-hmm but yeah absolutely thank you wonderful well dr. Feingold oof I think Glenn would agree I think we we feel like we owe Kendrick Glennon some tuition money well hey we love talking about this this is what we do every week you know from a reformed tradition we're self-consciously reformed but I can't thank you enough for taking you know 50% more time than you already committed just to speak with us today about these issues so I encourage you you your work thank you so much for your - mystic scholarship taking the time today to talk to us about it it's been tremendously sharpening and in my judgment yeah well hopefully this disconnector speak again some at another time but at least for the moment we do want to let our listeners know you know everything we have going on you can visit us online at Reformed forum org you'll find information about all of our programs and our events and we if you'd like to get in touch with us you can email us at mail at Reformed forum dot org we want to thank everybody for listening hope you join us again next time on Christ the Center

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Published: Thu Sep 20 2018