[no sound] [no sound] [no sound] [no sound] - Hello, good afternoon. Welcome to the very first
virtual Atelier with Alina Cho. I'm Andrew Bolton, Curator in Charge of the Costume Institute and it gives me enormous
pleasure to introduce today's guests, Bethann Hardison,
Naomi Campbell, and Iman. We created the Atelier
with Alina as a series of intimate conversations
with fashion leaders and these three trailblazing
women are exactly that. I first met Bethann in 2011. When we hosted a lunch at The Met in honor of the models of Versailles. The lunch was a tribute to the
extraordinary women of color who were part of the
historic 1973 fashion show at Versailles, that pitted
five American designers against five French designers. The Americans went in as the underdogs, but against all odds,
they emerged triumphant. And this was largely because of the energy and fearlessness of Bethann
and the other Black models who walked in the show. The Battle of Versailles
as it became known was the beginning of
Bethann's pioneering work advocating for diversity in fashion. Since then, she's worked
for more than five decades to effect change. She founded her own
modeling agency in 1984, and most recently she
established the Designers Hub to help businesses of color
gain insights and opportunities. [no sound] Naomi was the first Black
model to appear on the cover of Time Magazine, as well as on the covers of British, French, and Russian Vogue, which was a groundbreaking
achievement for women of color. I was lucky enough to work with Naomi on the Alexander McQueen
"Savage Beauty" Exhibition, and Naomi very kindly
shared her experiences collaborating with Lee and her insights helped me shape the narrative
of the exhibition enormously. As a philanthropist, Naomi
focuses on human rights and global health relating
to women and children. Her organization Fashion
for Relief has raised millions for disaster assistance. She also champions the
African fashion industry through Arise Fashion Week and the Gucci Changemakers program. In 2020, the Human Rights
Campaign honored Naomi with the Global Advocacy Award. She's also received the Fashion
Icon Awards from the CFDA and the British Fashion Council. [no sound] Iman during her extraordinary
20 year modeling career has collaborated with almost
every major fashion designer and photographer. Over the years, we've included many of her fashion editorials
in our exhibition catalogs. In 1994, Iman founded Iman
Cosmetics to fill a void in the market for women of color. She also supports many
humanitarian organizations, including Keep a Child Alive, Save the Children and the
Children's Defense Fund. She currently serves as
CARE's global advocate focusing on fighting global
poverty and empowering women. In 2020, she received
the CFDA's Fashion Icon Lifetime Achievement Award. [no sound] Alina is a contributor
to CBS Sunday Morning and Editor at Large at
Ballantine Bantam Dell. Previously Alina was a
national correspondent at CNN and hosted Fashion Backstage Pass. For making this series
possible, we're deeply thankful to the Doris & Stanley
Tanenbaum Foundation in memory of Doris Tanenbaum. Doris was a great friend to the Met and so is her daughter, Ricky Gail Conway, to whom we are extremely
grateful for sponsoring this series in her memory. I'm beyond excited to
hear from these pioneers of diversity in fashion. So without further ado,
please join me in welcoming Bethann, Naomi, Iman, and Alina. [no sound] [Alina] Thank you ladies for joining us. You know, when we announced
this talk about a week ago Iman you were the first
to promote it on Instagram and Naomi, you commented, you chimed in, and I was scrolling through the comments and Bethann I noticed your comment. You said in part, "I can't wait to have a
trifecta virtual sit down. Our prior sit down was
seven years ago in 2013, as we brought international fashion to a true place of attention." Now I know the three
of you are very close. You talk and see each
other as often as you can, but this marks the first
time that the three of you have come together publicly
to share your thoughts at this pivotal moment in time. Now, Bethann I want you to take me back to that other pivotal moment in 2013. What was happening in fashion then? And what did you do about it? [Bethann] Well in 2013, well, it was, it was
interesting because it was that no matter how much we
had tried our best to get the design world and the editorial world and editors and all to sort of like reintegrate models of color,
it kept sort of falling back. So by '13, of 2013, we had to really, I felt the need that I
call everyone together. It was a coalition that
I never ever mention who they all are because
they have to be sort of like an inner sanctum. But I wrote a letter
and I sort of addressed the entire international
fashion community. And then I sent the letter
specifically to the, the - um ... the houses that basically
oversee each design, designers in each city. And when doing that, you
know, it got to the press. I had to admit that I was
the one who wrote the letter because I was trying to make it seem like this came out of the sky. That's what I thought. But at the end of the
day, I wrote to London, New York, Paris and Milan. And that was just to address the fact that if you continue to use one
model or two consistently, season after season,
when you use 35 models that are white, but only
two or none of color then no matter what your intention is, the intent is, the result is racism. [Alina] Naomi, you were, you were walking the shows yourself, you were, you know, on the runways. What were you seeing? Because you noticed it as well right? [Naomi] Um, I would call
Bethann each time that I, since from the very beginning, I mean, when I started modeling there was, there was diversity. As I got to the middle of my career, I'm seeing less and less and less. And I would go to Bethann and say, this is what's going on. I basically would call
her every three days and just give her a run
down of what's happening, what I was seeing. And it wasn't, it was not a good time. It was really, I felt like this token Black model at certain times in my career, in fashion shows, like,
okay we have to have one we're going to use you. And most people thought that at the time, oh that's what I wanted. It wasn't what I wanted I felt alone, in that respect, without
other members of my culture or other members of diversity
that should have been there. And I realized we were going
backwards, not forwards. [Alina] And Iman you know, when you wrote, when you all collectively
wrote this letter, I know Bethann you wrote
it, you named names, you named brands that weren't
using models of color, and that got a lot of attention. And the fashion industry
responded very quickly. Were you surprised at how
quickly they pivoted Iman? [Iman] Okay first of all, I was really not that aware. Because I have divorced
myself from fashion I was the CEO of my own personal company and I actually didn't go to fashion shows. So Bethann called me one day and she said, "Are you aware that they had
not been using Black models in the runways anymore?" And I said, what do you mean they didn't? I mean it's not a trend,
so what's going on? And then I started reading about it. And there was one particular
article in New York Times that really jarred me. Because the title of the article is "The Blond Leading the Blond." There was no diversity met in the runway. So all you were seeing was a
sea of white models that were, uh, that were, uh - that
were being celebrated. And non-existent of - of - of a Black face or a Black model. For me I had photography
and runway and fashion has always been a very powerful tool. Because the absence of one
creates our young girls to be uh - put in a position
that they are not wanted, that they are not beautiful, that they are not desired by the industry, but that they are disposable,
that they are a trend. That was one of the reasons that really, it took me by surprise
that at that age, in 2013, that that was going on
because as Naomi said, when she was modeling
and when she started, there were more Black models. The same with me in the
seventies and eighties, there were a lot of us, right? And then to really hear in 2013, the absence of Black models on the runway and for me, more importantly,
in the advertising pages, it was backward, racism
actually that was visible. [Alina] Well, you know, I was surprised when I was researching this, that that had happened and that you know, it's not that long ago. It was seven years ago. But I do want to get to
something that is extraordinary. I want to show you all this
blockbuster September 2020 cover of Italian Vogue. There were 100 covers for
this very special issue. Bethann, you were one of them. That's right. That's right, Bethann, I
got to tell you Bethann, I think I told you this. When I looked at this photo, I thought it really captured your essence. I thought it captured your
warmth, your compassion, your strength. But when you saw it, you thought what? [Bethann] I thought,
"Ooh that's my cover?" [Laughter] It looks like a snapshot
that maybe Naomi or Iman took of me when I was talking
to them about something. It didn't seem like it, but then the whole, the
whole industry, you know, internationally responded so
well and people were sharing it on their sites. And then I started saying wow, and then you saw all the others and they all were like models of people and they weren't smiling. And then I sort of got the
reason why they chose that one. It made sense, it makes sense. [Alina] Oh yeah it really
exudes warmth like I said. Naomi and Iman when you see that cover, what do you think? [Iman] Oh, absolutely. Naomi, and Naomi and I absolutely, we think it's one of the best covers and it really does represent her. I don't know what she-- [Alina] Right? [Iman] The warmth, the intelligence, the integrity, the joy. Yeah. [Alina] That's right,
so Bethann, you know, many people know you as sort of the oracle or the conscience of fashion. They don't realize that you
were a groundbreaking model in the sixties and seventies. And I want to talk more about how you made fashion history in a moment, but first I want to get
to how Iman and Naomi got their starts. Iman I want to start with you. I didn't know this, you were a
student at Nairobi University when the famed American
photographer, Peter Beard, the late, great Peter Beard
stopped you on the street. What did he say to you
and how did you respond? [Iman] Uh - first of all, I was majoring in Political Science. I was a refugee from Somalia. So, relocated in Kenya. I have never seen fashion
magazine in my life. I had never worn makeup in my life. I was doing several jobs at the same time. I had a scholarship for the
University for one year, but after that, I had to fend for myself. I was 17. And then from one job to another, this white man stopped me
in this group and said, and said have you ever been photographed? And I thought, no, no, no. He's not going to do that to me. I'm not that kind of girl. [Laughter] [Bethann] Every time I
hear this story I laugh. It's so funny. [Alina] But you know what, you know, Iman you were smart enough at that age to ask for what you wanted. So you asked for how much
money and what did that cover? [Iman] $8,000 equivalent to $8,000, which I think he got it cheap, but $8,000 for my tuition. For my second year of tuition. [Alina] And there's that
first photo that Peter Beard took of you. He took photos of you
I mean, it's ordinary. He took photos of you. He brought them back to
Wilhelmina in New York and showed them they got you on the phone. They said, come to New York. And you said, what? [Iman] I, they talked about, you know, I will be paid this much,
I'll be a top model. I had no idea what they
were talking about. I have only requested for,
to have a return ticket just in case I changed my mind
and I want to go back home. [Laughter] [Alina] But you still-- [Iman] I still have the ticket. [Alina] You still have that return ticket. That's extraordinary. Bethann this was around the time that you and Iman met, right? She came at the end of '75. You met in '76. You were at Stephen Burrows, his studio. [Bethann] We met in '75, we met in '75. [Alina] They met in '75 okay. That's why Iman calls you
her ride or die from '75. That's right. [Bethann] No, she calls
me her Statue of Liberty. [Alina] Okay, so look at this
amazing photo of you two. I think going to the
parties or going to the club from the seventies, but
tell me how you met. What do you remember
about that first meeting? [Bethann] Oh, my first meeting,
the first meeting with Iman was forever. She came to - because at that
time she had only been in the, she had only been in
town, maybe a few weeks. And she had to be seen
by different designers because they made such a big
thing about who she was and you know, they had a big press conference. So every designer wanted to see it. I worked with Steven Burrows at the time, Steven Burrows asked for a
go-see, she came on the go-see. She had never worn heels before. She'd never, you know, she was just a, she was a, I mean, a fragile bird. And she came in and I had
two girls who worked in the and also were the showroom models and they said where she had
to go and put the clothes on, try the clothes on her. And she was just trembling. And I, you know, the girls of
course had no respect for her because they were all girls of color. And you know, they just, everybody, a lot of people in the
city at the time felt that Iman was someone
that was being brought from across the ocean when there were so many great Black girls. Why would they do that? So there was a lot of controversy about. But she comes in and
she basically she's so, she has not, it's almost like she has not a friend in the world. But she comes in and
she actually was trying to put the clothes on, but
it's taking her so long that I go back into the room and I see she's barely getting things on. And so I start to help
because she couldn't get her shoes on. [Alina] Oh my gosh. [Bethann] Sort of helped
her to put the shoes on, but the girls were talking about her, cause you know she's from
"the Bush" quote, unquote. And so she can't speak a
word of English we assume, too much anyway. So they're talking about her. And I looked up at her as I
was trying to fix the shoe on her foot. And I said, you understand everything they're saying don't you? She looked at me and she said yes. And she was just trembling, trembling. It was such an extraordinary moment. So when she later, when she wrote her book and she wrote that she had considered me, always her Statue of Liberty it's like, when people
first come to America, you know, as refugees coming from Europe and they're on the boat and
see the Statue of Liberty, it's like opportunity and safety. And so that's what I-- [Alina] Bethann I think
we're having a little, I think we're having a
little bit of trouble with your connection
there for a second. Um. Naomi, I want to talk about
how you got your start. Like Iman, you were a student, you were hanging out with
your friends after school. I think you were 15, you
were in your school uniform-- [Naomi] Fourteen. [Alina] Fourteen, a complete stranger, a woman walks up to you and she says what to you? [Naomi] Have you ever considered modeling? And I said, no, because
I was standing around my friends with beautiful
long blonde hair. And I'm like, why me? Cause I was always teased
and called oddball at school. So she gave me her card. And of course my mind ticks, now it's like how do I convince mum? Not happening. [Alina] Your mom, your mom
wasn't into it at first. [Iman] Aww look at baby Naomi. [Alina] Look at that. [Naomi] And that's actually the picture, where the makeup artist
said, "Oh you're Black. We didn't know you were Black, we don't have foundation for you." This is the picture. And so then they mixed some stuff. I was much grayer, I think
that somehow over the years it's been warmed up somehow, some way. No so basically for me, I
went to a theater school. And so the competitive
part, that was already there and in terms of the rejection,
knowing about rejection. I should say. So that, you know, but I knew nothing about fashion. I never bought a magazine, like Iman. I couldn't afford to. I wasn't going use my
pocket money on magazines. And you know, I come from a
Jamaican Chinese background and you know, just dance was my thing. I wanted to be a dancer. A ballet dancer, a jazz dancer.
I wanted to be in theater. So that's where I was headed. And then I took a side sort of. [Alina] That must be
part of the reason why you have that famous walk. Yeah well it's quite, you've got you have, I think it's, I think it's undisputed. [Naomi] For me, it was not my walk. It's Iman's walk. I mean we would watch Iman like. When I first came to Paris
to go-see with French Elle, my aunt brought me, my Aunt Yvonne. It was the summer of July 1986 and I came over from London and I'd never been to Paris before. And basically, I don't know
how, but we were invited to go to the opera to see Christian Dior. And all I kept waiting cause
I heard Iman was in the show. And I'd seen Iman, I knew who Iman was because of the commercials that we have on English television and I
mean it was around the world but we had it in England,
that's how I knew who Iman was. And I just was like this goddess
statue's going to come out and I'm going to see her
in real life and I saw-- [Alina] Oh wow. [Naomi] I was standing
way, way at the back, but that show for me,
and when Iman walked out is something I will never forget because I've never seen
such command of hundreds of people at one time, and just everything was this elegant and exquisite. It's always-- [Iman] And you know always like that. Is that a person that is just right there, that that is so visible. That is maybe your kind of a generation, or just the generation before you that actually give you those wings to fly. So if I was for her that,
for me was Pat Cleveland because when I think of the person, the first designer I saw was Halston. And there was Pat with
her twirly and all that. And I was like, oh my god.
[Alina] Well, I want to talk, I want to talk a little
bit more about that because Pat Cleveland and
Bethann, you were involved in something extraordinary in 1973. Andrew Bolton referred to
this in his introduction. But in 2001, as you know, The Met celebrated the
models of Versailles with this beautiful lunch
at the Museum, I was there. This was that epic battle in '73 at the palace of Versailles that pitted the American designers
against the French designers. It became known as the
Battle of Versailles and the Americans were
the clear underdogs, but there, there you are Bethann. [Naomi] Brilliant. Ma, Look at your muscle tone! [Laughter] [Alina] So Bethann, Bethann. [Bethann] Another photograph I hate. [Naomi] This picture? It's gorgeous! [Alina] I want you, I
want you to take me back. I want you to take me back to that moment, out of 36 models, you were
one of 10 models of color. And you've said to me that you
didn't walk down the runway, you danced down the runway
and that's what brought the Americans-- [Bethann] No I didn't dance, I
didn't dance. No, no, no, no. No we didn't dance. It was very choreographed. It was not a something you could do, you couldn't step out of line
and do anything different. What I did, how I walked,
is what changed the moment. The way I walked. Because
I was an assistant to Stephen Burrows, I was lucky to have three designers, the other two designers that brought me, had said I could be in this show as well, but it was, you know, it
was the contance of Austin telling me, come on, every time you look personal, I wasn't focused on that. I wasn't, you know, I just did the steps. I just walked through it
and did what I could do based on what was Kate
Thompson was telling us to do. The fact of it was when I walked, cause Austin kept saying
every time, you know, oh please Bethann you gotta bring it. You gotta bring this I was
known to be a strong walker. And then that moment, you know,
we were under such stress. Everybody was fighting and you know, it was just such a tough time that when I walked I
walked with such defiance that I really wanted those, those Europeans to know that
we were here to take it. [Alina] And you did. [Bethann] Yeah when I got
to the end of the stage cause it was a stage, the programs, they started stomping their feet. And then they threw the
programs up in the air. [Alina] Yeah I read that. [Bethann] And everybody
just knew that we had it. And we were first and that was, and there was nothing like that since. Then when they started to
do that moving forward. But that was that time. [Alina] Well I want to
talk a little bit about Iman and Naomi, your
extraordinary careers. And that certainly was
a highlight for Bethann as a model before she
entered her next phases. But Iman to say that you've
had and continue to have an extraordinary career, I
think is an understatement. You've been called the world's
first Black supermodel. You've also been called
the first Black model to make serious cash, good for you. The first Black model to become the face of a global cosmetics brand, Revlon. You've since started
your own cosmetics brand Iman Cosmetics, because you had trouble finding foundations in your color, so you said, "F it, I'm
going to do it myself." But what, you know, it was a long road and it was a hard road
getting there in some, at some points. So tell me, what would you say were some of the biggest challenges you faced as a Black model coming up and coming out in the seventies? [Iman] Well, first of all,
when I came to the States, there was all this talk about that I was either a royalty, a
princess, or a goat herder. [Laughter] Which I was neither. I was not. And as people thought
I didn't speak English. And you know, I was majoring
in Political Science. I wanted to be part of Somalia's politics when we were back home. And so and so I viewed everything through like the politics. I viewed everything,
including beauty and fashion and everything I looked
at through politics. And what does it really mean? And what does it, is it
really convey and say? So, but, but mind you, I
was still also very young, so I didn't know much. So when I was pushed and
heralded into this industry, I've had a lot of people who helped me, including foremost and
importantly, Bethann Hardison. But most importantly, what I have learned and I had to learn quickly and on my feet was that when I got to my
first, it was for Vogue American Vogue, I went for my first shoot. And there were absolutely,
there was no makeup for a Black woman. And I, and I had no
idea about makeup right? So the, the makeup artists
specifically asked me, and it was perplexing the question, "Did you bring your own foundation?" And I say perplexing, because there was a Caucasian model. He didn't ask her that question. But that I was very clear. I understood that he was
asking me specifically. I have no idea what a foundation was. So I said, no, I didn't. So he proceeded to do my makeup. And when I looked in the
mirror, I looked gray. And for, really what saved my career was those pictures, most of the pictures were black and white. And black and white pictures
hide multitude of sins. [laughter] [Alina] Yes. [Iman] But! But I went and bought everything
that was in the market, including there was an old Woolworth remember Woolworth? That was in 1970. I bought every foundation
that I could find that had a little bit of a tint or tone, or like closer to my skin
and mixed and match it. And I bought a Polaroid so
that I can put on my face and take a picture to
see how it translates into the picture. Because at the end of the day as a model, really what matters is
how we look in pictures. And that's our currency, our photographs, our images is our currency. And at that time I understood that if I didn't get hold of my image and I didn't control how I
looked and how I'm perceived. First, I would not have any
chance because nobody says the photographer, makeup
artist messed up the shoot, it's the model, especially
if you are Black. And so I wanted to be at
least some kind of a control. And that was the control
I had was to bring my own foundations to every shoot and every runway I have ever been. [Alina] And Naomi, you I know
encountered the same problem as you were coming up as a model. I mean, this goes
without saying you're one of the most recognizable
faces on the planet. I couldn't believe this when I read this, but you've been on more
than 1,000 magazine covers. You were the first
Black model on the cover of Time Magazine, French
and Russian Vogue. But again, like Iman I know you don't like to call them struggles, but
you had some challenges. You had a few obstacles and you've, you've said quote, "At an early age, I understood what it meant to be Black. You had to be twice as good." That's something I've
said in my career as well. But how did that play
out in practice for you? [Naomi] It's something that my mother, has always instilled in me that, you know, that whatever
you're going to do, knowing you're a Black woman, a Black girl that you have to do 110%. And so it was just that.
In terms of, you know, whatever I would go to,
I was going into it, really everything I've got. I mean, yes as you said, I don't like to, there was challenges along the way. As Bethann and Iman know,
I don't like being told no. Especially when it comes to work, when it feels like there's
an open opportunity for everyone on the table, that to be you know difference of,
you don't even put yourself up for something when you
know that's not for you. But when you know that
there's a possibility that you could also, could you have an opportunity for, I don't want to hear no. So I was told no, quite
a lot as upcoming model and knowing the right people,
I was able to go to them and say to them, well
this is what they said. I have no problem
playing people off people to get what I wanted. It was work at the end of the day. And I would do it. If I had the backing of the designer that was putting the money
in advertising papers and yet the magazine itself won't use me. Yes! I was going to use it. And yes I did use it. [Alina] You're referring
to your French Vogue cover, you were the first Black model to grace the cover of French Vogue
and Yves Saint Laurent had your back didn't he? [Naomi] I mean, it's happened after that it happened to me other times. I mean, Ralph Lauren was a
great 'nother story for me where he, once he you know I mean he already had Tyson Beckford which was, who was with Bethann
who had been organizing, and had been very
important in illustrating that contract with Tyson and Ralph Lauren. And so then taking me at the same time I didn't really, you know people tell you things all the time,
whether you're going to do the Ralph campaign. You were either Ralph or Ralph Lauren. And then he said, and you're
going to do Ralph Lauren. So I'm like there's no way. So I run it by Bruce
Weber, which was the Ralph and Ralph Lauren collection
which was with Patrick fortunately. And you just don't, you know, you hear things and
people say things, okay. Let it go, but he was a man of his word. That's why I have so much
respect for Ralph Lauren. And I thought to myself, wow, they're really going to put two of us, two Black people together in one ad? I wasn't sure about that, are you sure it's going to happen? Cause I keep thinking it was
canceled. Have they realized? And it did happen. And Ralph, again, was
someone that supported our culture and has
always been there for me. I mean, I could go on
there's many, but again, it was for me a stepping stone and you could call them what they want, whether it's barrier breaking or whatever. I didn't look at it that
way. I was looking at it as I'm going to get past this obstacle. Each obstacle comes one by one, we work out how we can get through it and achieve what we want.
An everybody evolves. [Bethann] And Naomi, I want
to speak on something on that. One thing about what I
always appreciate about Naomi you know, from the time
she was very young, I mean, she really came here young and
on her own, without parents, she was living on her own. And the only person she
knew in America was me because she met me when
she was 14 in London. She, she fought so hard to
have things right for her. She didn't cheat, she had the courage to always stand up and
say, this is not right. How much are they getting paid? No, that's not right. I'm not getting paid. She was always someone
and that's why I named, you know, my Buffalo Soldier, fighting on arrival,
fighting for survival, because I knew she was that person. She was always in your face,
not going to be something and standing up against her agency against the industry, against the client. And she'd come to my office and I wasn't even representing her,
but I was representing her as like a parent, you know. She would come and I'm not
going to go on that shoot. She would just you know, stand strong and it was very commendable
in somebody that young, who understands their worth. Iman has always talked about your worth, what's your worth, know your worth. And she knows that. That doesn't happen, that doesn't come into every young person. [Alina] No, you're right. And I've always said
like, Naomi, you know, like you said, I don't like to hear no. And I've got to say that, I've always said with
respect to my career, no's the first answer on your way to yes. And so, you know, you do
just have to keep fighting. I want to talk about something, some highlights that all three
of you were involved with the Black Girls Coalition, 1988. Bethann, you and Iman founded
the Black Girls Coalition. Naomi, you were a founding member. Bethann, what was the idea
behind the Black Girls Coalition? [Bethann] It was really
just basically, to support - [Naomi] I love that! [Bethann] There's so many girls, look they're looking at themselves. Aww look at each one, look how young and looking back at the day--
[Naomi] I want that picture. [Laughter] - I'll give you, I'll give you the better one too. Um. In 1990, that was 1996 I think. But what it basically was, was really truly just
to celebrate the girls. I was just so impressed that so many girls and I give all credit
always to Regis Pagniez who started American
Elle who came to America to start American Elle
and he actually started putting girls of Color
on the magazine covers in the magazines and it
helped to sort of challenge Hearst and also Conde
Nast to compete with them because they became so
successful so quickly. I was so surprised. [Alina] And Iman and
Naomi, I know that this was started as a - uh - a celebration of Black models. But you had all alluded to the fact that things were better and
then they got worse and, and suddenly the Black
Girls Coalition had to pivot and become a watchdog group,
isn't that right Iman? [Iman] Well yeah, but as I always say, it really always starts
with Bethann, you know? For me, at least Bethann
is the one who told me about what was going
on at the time in 2013, with the lack of Black
models on the runway. And, you know, it was really upsetting, but you know, it's like you at times, I always go back to, I read years ago somebody who said like demonstration rehearsal for the revolution, you know? So it is, you need to
really assess and see what is going on to
demonstrate against it, then to revolutionize it and change it. So Bethann was really at the helm of that. She told me to check, she
told me to look into this and I started looking
into this and then hence we came together, all of us. The three of us specifically
for that, for that movement. [Alina] And Naomi, I know you
were very young at the time and sometimes you'd be out on shoots and your mom would fill in
at meetings is that right? [Naomi] Yeah there were times
when shoots would go over and I'd be like, I'm not going to make it. And my mom would be in New
York and my mom would go, and she would speak up right? Mum spoke up. [Bethann] She did. Very interesting time, and you know and that's so wonderful that,
cause it was just really, we were always planning the next event. We were always just trying
to raise consciousness to the industry about
homelessness or different things. And then at one point we have
to sort of like talk about, you know, the invisible person
that was in advertising. You never saw, you know, they didn't represent their market. You didn't see Black
people in commercials. You only saw them when it came
down to domestic products. So it could be like a comment or some of, a woman, you know, protect. So we had to really
sort of like bring that we really went up against
the advertising industry. That's when we really
saw what was happening. There were no girls of color in campaigns, but that was really,
it wasn't just for the, it wasn't just for the
model at that point. At that point, it was really about people. Now you see how much it's changed because the advertising industry
recognized that they had to represent the person that
they were also marketing to. [Alina] Well, I want to
talk about something that if you follow fashion,
this is one of the most important sort of moments
in, in fashion history as far as I'm concerned. I'm talking about the famous
Black Issue of Vogue Italia, Italian Vogue, July, 2008. Naomi, you were on one of the covers. Bethann you were, and Iman of course, you were in the issue as well. Bethann you were actually
called on by then editor in chief, the
late, great Franca Sozzani to help bring this idea to life. Did you have any idea
what you were getting into and what an impact it would have when you were working on it? [Bethann] I don't think anyone could, no one thought this magazine
would be so successful that it would have three reprints. I mean, it just was so successful. And what was two, well the
first one and then two, it was, it was amazing
in how everyone was just, you know, through the magazine store, people would just sort of
start hiking up the price because they saw they
had something that was, you know, like unheard of
for this magazine, why? It really was sensational
and that, you know, I always loved the fact
that Franca Sozzani said that her greatest
achievement was that Vogue Black and Italian Vogue Black issue. [Alina] Naomi, what do you
remember about that moment and taking part in the
shooting of that issue? [Naomi] It was an honor
to be part of that issue and to be shot by Steve,
the great Steven Meisel he's like family member to me and has been shooting me since I was 16. And just that Franca had
the initiative with Bethann. She had told me about it, but just when I, you know, you get told about it, but when you really got to the job, and understood what had
been taking place and what, and saw the shoots together, that's when I understood the
magnitude of what it was, and I realized this was more
than just shooting pictures and a cover of Vogue. This was more, it was something great. You know, something significant. [Alina] Iman before
we, we talk about this, this important moment in time, I do want to pull up one
important photo that you sent me this one right here, because you are Iman, you commissioned Annie
Leibovitz to shoot this photo. Naomi you're you're,
you're nodding your head [Naomi] I love this photo. [Alina] because it's really something. And Iman I know this, this
was shot for your book, "I am Iman." And I know it's very special, I mean, it gives me goosebumps
when I'm looking at it. It's very special to
you and you've called it a highlight of your career. Why is this photo so important to you? [Iman] Because it's just not about me. You know, the whole book was about me, but I wanted this
particular photograph really because it didn't exist before. I was very close to Mr. Irving Penn so I called, I talked to
my husband and I said, I really want him to
create this famous picture that he created in the 1950s
of the models of that time. But I wanted it to do
it all the Black models that are working and in
existence at this particular time in my life, which was 2000. And so he said, when
he likes you very much, Mr. Penn, why didn't you ask him? So I didn't have the nerve to
get on the phone to ask him in case he said no so
I wrote him a letter. And he, he called my office and he said, tell her to call me. So I talked to my husband and
I said, he's going to say no, he's going to say no. He said, no he would have said no if he was going to say no. So hesitantly, I called
him and he told me this and the title of the picture
in my book is called, "My Tribe of Beauties." And it actually came from him. He said to me, Mr. Penn said to me, I want you to do this picture. I want you to know why I can't do it because I have not done
a group shot since then. But I want you to do this
because it is very important. And your tribe of beauties
will show up for you. You have to ask them
specifically per person, each one of them. And then he said, and you have
to get a big photographer. [Laughter] Have a big photographer. So first I called Annie
Leibovitz and talked her into it. And she said, she'll do it for me. But she gave me a limited time. One date to bring everybody together. And then I wrote to every
girl in the picture, I wrote her a specific
letter telling her why I needed this to be done,
not for me, but for all of us as a group of girls who
are going to be celebrated in this picture together, this is a picture for all
of us and for the young generations of girls
who will come after us for our own daughters, for them to see the diverse
beauty in Black beauty, that there is, and she's
captured it so beautifully. And I could not have been prouder if this, these girls, they were all
lived different places, different cities, different continents, they all flew in for
this particular picture. And I will be forever
grateful to each one of them. And specifically the two
of them who are here, Naomi and Bethann who
helped me actually gather the girls together. [Alina] I mean, I was going to say-- [Naomi] It was such a special
moment, what a beautiful day. That was such a beautiful day. Really beautiful, it was so great. [Alina] Everyone, everyone showed up, certainly, as you said Iman. And it is, it's really
something and so impactful when you look at it. You know, I want to talk about
this pivotal moment in time that we're in. And this is really the
genesis of why we all decided to get together in the first place, right? In the midst of the worst
pandemic in a century, we also saw the death of George Floyd and countless others
at the hands of police. The protesters have poured
onto the streets in numbers like we haven't seen all over the world and the calls for racial equity
have come from every corner, including fashion. So Bethann as the oracle and
the conscience of fashion, I'm curious to know, what do you make of all of these recent efforts
and where do we go from here? [Bethann] Well, I'm very
happy that they're, you know, it's unfortunate that Mr.
Floyd had to lose his life. It's unfortunate that so many people have to lose their lives. It's fortunate that we do
now have cameras on phones and that things are
recorded so that we have some sort of like documentation. The greatest thing about
what's happened recently is that we have conversations. The conversation has never
happened like it has happened. So I'm very happy about
that and I think we all are. People are referring to being able to say Blacks, and whites being able to feel that they can have a conversation about what's going on. There's been a lot of
history, conversations, talk on radio, people
talking about our history. It's been very conscious for corporations to sort of
like concern themselves with how should they do better. There have been many
initiatives sort of brought up and sort of asked to please
let's do something let's help. Maybe these different people
in different ranges of, of the industry, how can we do better? How can it be better? And many people want to have, and this is one thing I
really want to say about this is that many people look forward to having sort of like now, many corporations, having people come on their boards. They want to have people on their boards. And that's great and I
think that's a nice idea. But I also want to hope that
they would also think about having hiring people to
come into their companies. Because having people just on
your boards is a nice idea, but they're sort of like on
the outside of everything. It's nice to have people start to live and work together with
many people of color. And also, I also want, oftentimes see how we have a combination of
either agitators or disruptors. And, you know, there's
a difference between the agitators and the disruptors. The disruptors are, you know, like we say, Black Lives Matter. Those are the disruptors,
you have to disrupt. And then you have some times
we have in our community, people who agitate and they
just come after the system. And some, oftentimes I
think everyone can be sort of like guilty and
everybody needs to understand that we all need to be responsible. You know, many people didn't speak up that were Black, either.
Back then, last year, say. Now we all are. So now it's important time to
recognize that this is a time and we should never be quiet. We should always be able to speak up. Respectfully for sure, because you don't want to lose your job, but you have to definitely
be able to say something. And I think it's an important
time where people now who say sometimes, well how are we going to have some sort of like clarity that people are
really doing the right things. Companies say in the beginning, I'm down with Black Lives Matter, or I'm here to do what I have to do. Or what can we do? What can we say? And they say it now in the
beginning and then later on, you know, maybe nothing happens. You have to have some sort
of accountability it's true. And I, and I want to give it a
conscious little shout out to some of a different generation
and time for me, truly, but with someone like Aurora James who started the 15% pledge. I think that's something
that's very wonderful that she's done. Just sort of like push
companies to sort of like commit themselves. I also like Black fashion council. Black in Fashion, sorry. Black in Fashion, started
by Lindsey and her partner. I think it's really kind of good because it's wonderful
that they too are asking the industry to be accountable. So that's, these are the
things that are happening because of it. There's a lot of movement in our industry. And now we just got to hope
and pray as we continue to be forceful, that it continues. [Alina] So Naomi, I want to
get back to that original post that Iman posted when she
was promoting the talk. And I was just, just as I
was with Bethann's comment, I was really struck by your comment. You said, in addition to
being honored to be here, thank you, that, "History
always repeats itself until all those who have
come into this business also feel seen, heard,
considered and respected. We still have so much work to do." What did you mean when you said that? [Naomi] Well, basically it's, you know, I feel a lot of these
companies feel like okay, we're going to take the models. And then we have covered
our quota so to speak. That's not enough. Even if you are using
a model of diversity, a Black woman, a model of color, are you paying them the same? They're doing the same work, but they're not getting the same pay. This I find this, always have, unethical. And then, you know, the
decisions only can go so far because everyone has to rush
out like Bethann's saying, you have these diversity
boards and everyone's setting them up and that's great, but why don't you have
it in the first place? Why don't you have it
in-house to begin with? Why do you have to go
outside and bring it in? Why are you not looking
to make your company diverse to begin with, is
basically what I'm saying. It's not, you know, I feel
like there's some people that are not being true, that are just trying to cover their asses and that won't work. [Alina] Iman when we were, when we were all doing a little pre-talk on our Zoom last week, um, you - you made reference to
the fact that this moment is bigger than fashion. That you really think
it's about participating and getting out the vote. So talk about that. [Iman] Okay so I mean,
I've mentioned this earlier about this really a
great quote that I read, I believe it was, I can't remember the name of the writer, but it was as I said
about demonstrations are rehearsal for a revolution. And Bethann just mentioned
Mr. Floyd's death. And I can't take my mind
off and I will always, always remember his daughter saying, "Look my daddy has
changed the world," right? So that, that death,
that changed everything that brought everybody out
that have brought people out on the streets to
demonstrate and all that. What we need to now is to collectively really rethink about what change, what is the change we're
looking for in our industry and a lot of other industries, we have talked about bringing, bringing us to the seat at the table, giving us a seat at the table. Now we have moved away from that. Nobody cares about that
damn table anymore, right? Because we can create our own tables. But the, what we need collectively, all of us, not just Black,
but white and everybody to collectively really think
about what that real change is. Not a tokenism change, not a quota change, but a real change. And a real change obviously
I think personally it happens by bringing people, people of brown, Black and
brown, into the decision-making especially in fashion,
in the decision-making of really that's where
really change happens. Not by just saying it.
Okay we will do this, and then there is no transparency. There is no accountability. I mean, just for a couple
of a couple of days ago, we read about the Oscars. They are making a true, true change. Our industry needs to
take that into account and really think it's not about dismantling
the whole thing. It's not, but it's about
really bringing in people that can you with the real change. And that's what the decision making is. That's what equity is. But we also need transparency
as Naomi was talking about transparency and we need accountability. You know, nobody's going to get
off the hook easily anymore. That is the most important part. And everybody is accountable
- is accountable. That's what I personally think in this where we are at now. And let's not, also the,
I want to say the rage is justifiable. The anger is justifiable, right? But I don't want us to, for it to rob our joy and our existence. and be stuck in a place
of just being hurt. We want to be part of that
change and change from within, not just have it cosmetically changed. [Alina] So to speak. Before I mean, we all knew
this hour would go by quickly and we are nearing the end. I mean, it's crazy, right? And we're nearing the
end, but before we go, I got to tell you, you know, we've all been in this
crazy moment, right? Where we've been isolated. And even when we see people
it's socially distant. And I mean, I didn't leave my apartment in March and part of April. And so I'm curious to know, so for me, I learned how to cook during this period, which shocked a lot of my friends. But you know Naomi, I
was watching your latest "No Filter" last night with Kate Hudson. And one thing that you
said that you learned during this period was that being alone didn't mean you were lonely. And I'm curious to know,
you know, what you've - you know, what you've
learned about yourself during this moment in time? [Naomi] I mean, I always, I mean, actually who told
me that was Robert De Niro, when he told it to me, I was very young and I didn't understand it. But in our job, Iman will
know this and Bethann, we travel from hotel to
hotel anyway, we are alone. So it wasn't much difference
for me from being, whether it was in a
hotel, to being at home. I've enjoyed being alone with myself. Um, connecting with
the people that I love. The people that matter to me. Getting time to think about the things that do matter to me
and editing the things that really are not important enough. I've wasted my time on, it's just giving us, I think
everyone would say this make time to deeply
reflect about who we are, what it is we want to do with our lives and what are the things
that we want to really commit ourselves to doing. And so I don't get lonely and I don't get bored,
there's too much do. There's just not enough time. [Alina] And Naomi, I have
to tell you very quickly that a friend of mine,
very close friend of mine got on a plane the other day
and he called me and he said, "I Naomi Campbell-ed my seat." And you know we all know
what that means Naomi. You know we all know what that means. You've been doing this for 15 years, wiping every inch of your plane seat and your plane area right? And I mean you even wear a mask. This was a year ago it
was posted on YouTube and it's been viewed 3 million times. It's crazy. [Iman] She was ahead of
the game in that way. [Alina] That's right, that's right. And Iman, Iman I want to talk about, you've been working from
home with your hashtag #Imandaily inspirational quotes and your Slay from Home promotion
of your cosmetics. How's it been going for you and, and what have you learned
during this period? [Iman] Well, you know, it's reading. Reading really has become
a major factor of my day, you know so I take a lot, I usually start reading
early in the morning. I wake up around 6 AM, I'm an early riser. So I read for an hour, an hour and a half. And usually I don't write my daily till whatever I'm feeling of that moment is what I did my dailies is about. But more importantly, I have, I have come to terms too that I don't have to be good at
anything to get it started. So I started painting. My husband and my
daughter are both painters and I have never taken a brush ever, ever, ever to paint on a canvas. So I started painting and
I'm enjoying that very much. [Alina] Oh, good for you. Good for you you're
going to have to show us some of your work later. [Iman] As I said it's not
great, I might bad at it, but I'm doing it. [Laughter] [Alina] And Bethann, my god I mean, you
recently took on a new role as Gucci's Executive
Advisor for Global Equity and Cultural Engagement. You started The Designer's Hub to focus on young designers of color
to build up their businesses. You've become a board member of the CFDA, you're working on your
autobiography and your documentary. You ever going to get on
that hammock in Mexico and drink a tequila or what? [Laughter] [Bethann] No, I get on it, but I get off. [Laughter] I get on and I get off. But it's nice to, yeah
though it's good to be busy. I keep thinking too, yeah, I keep thinking too,
at the time of living, how long I've lived and how, how you look back at the number. Cause I have a birthday
coming up and I'm thinking, wow isn't that wonderful
that you still are - Iman told me many years ago when I didn't understand something, she said that's because you're relevant. And that's when you to begin
to understand relevancy. And people who are not. You know you begin to understand
the combination of at all. But I, I truly am very
grateful to have had this time as much as I, we hurt from the pandemic, having that three months
of me just coming up here and being in my home that
I've owned for 30 years and never been in it more than 10, 10 days at a time having this moment where you can live in it and just be quiet and just stay in your
pajamas three days at a time and not feeling a thing and not having to talk to people. It was great until, until the movement, you know, we had a really, a civilized time to be at a place where we could really begin to reflect. And I'm very grateful to
everything that's happening. I'm just happy every day that I wake up. [Alina] Alright, so we
have time for maybe one, maybe two questions from the audience. The first one is, what advice
do you have for young women, especially women of color,
looking to get into fashion and modeling today? Naomi, let's start with you. [Bethann] Oh. [Naomi makes frustrated sounds] [Naomi] I mean - [Alina Laughs] [Naomi] I mean, I think
Ma should answer that one. But I think it's always, you
know, what do you say Ma, Bethann, it's like a good agency and Iman, I mean, it's a good agency. Not getting swindled with,
you know, people saying, pay me thousands of dollars
to take your picture and I'll get you into an agency. It's about going to an agency, finding out what it is they require going away and executing
that and coming back. Um. Never give up. Never give up ever, just
push forward with your dream. There's a lot of rejection I always say, don't take it personally. It's hard because they're
looking at us visually, and how we look. And so it's really hard
to differentiate the two, but you can cannot. And keep pushing. You know, I just, it's such a, I never know how to answer that question. It's so crazy, Iman how do you answer it? [Bethann] I do. Don't do it. [Laughter] [Bethann] That's my answer. [Iman] I say, give yourself
a five year, you know, like say five years. I'm going to give it a good,
my best for five years. If it doesn't work next, move it along. You know it is, it's a lot of young
girls start very young. They don't finish school, they stop it and they don't start it again. You know, that happens to them. If my daughter, thank
god she doesn't want to, but if my daughter
wanted to become a model, she's definitely has to
finish school and all that. Do that first, and then give it, give it a, give it a shelf life. Say this is the amount
of time I'm going to really give it all my
best and everything I got. And if it doesn't work, I got to move on. [Alina] I'm frozen here, but I'm going to go ahead and jump in and I'm going to say the other question is as insiders, what do you
think are the top two steps the fashion image business in the USA could do to advance the
work of women of color in business now and
for the next few years? Bethann I'll let you take that, and then I'm going to plug my laptop in. [Bethann] I liked the
other question better. [Laughter] Let me just answer the other one cause I'm not a model like they're models. I'd say go into technology. What would you do, what
was the question, baby, say it real fast again? [Alina] Let me, let me pull it up. What advice do you have for young women, especially women of color, looking to get into
fashion and modeling today? [Bethann] Wow, I just, I just don't encourage it. I'm just not that person. I can't, I wish I could. I wish I could, I wish I could. I'm the first one to say, run Forest run. (laughs) I would never encourage
anybody to get into modeling. I would never. [Alina] Ma! [Laughter] I know, but anyway, but if you, if you dare, if you feel
like you're not going to listen to this Bethann
because what does she know, then start to just, just
address the model agencies send your pictures, your natural pictures. Do not have a photographer take them. Send them to all the
agencies, have them listed, and let them see if you
get a good response. If you get a good response,
go to that agency, make sure they're credible and then see where you can go
from there and stay strong. Stay strong because it's a very, very-- [Iman] It's a marathon. [Bethann] It's a what babe? [Iman] It's a marathon. [Bethann] It's a marathon
right, not a sprint. That's very true. It's really, it's a very
competitive environment. [Alina] Okay, well I want to
thank you Bethann Hardison, Naomi Campbell, Iman, thank you so much. You don't know how honored I am to have the three of you here today. You have no idea the response
that I got from my friends and other people, complete strangers who were so excited about this talk. So I thank you for joining us today and want to thank
everybody who is watching here in the US and around the world joining us for this very
first virtual Atelier with Alina Cho. I'm sure this will be the
first of many to come. Thank you all, have a wonderful day. I'm going to reach out to you later, okay? [Naomi] Thank you.
[Alina] Okay. Bye everyone. [Naomi] Thank you Alina. [Bethann] Thank you. [no sound]
