The Ancient Paths - Grant Palmer on New Polygamy Statement

good evening my name is Jason Wallace I'm the pastor of Christ Presbyterian Church here in the Salt Lake Valley and we are very privileged to have with us this evening grant Palmer he is retired from the LDS Church education system and he is the author of an insider's view of Mormon origins before we get started this evening I'd like to take the opportunity to invite you to worship with us at Christ Presbyterian Church in Magna Sunday mornings Sunday school is at 9:45 worship is at 11 that's at 86 thirty West 2700 South we also have a sister congregation Berean Presbyterian that meets at 3350 Harrison Boulevard at 9:00 a.m. in Ogden if you like more information on our church you can go to gospel ewtodd org or give us a call at eight oh one nine six nine seven nine four eight but as I mentioned we have with us grant Palmer and it's great pleasure to have you with us well thanks for inviting me now what I think is this evening primarily on the article that you've written about Joseph Smith and polygamy but before we get into that for folks who don't know who you are can you give us just a sort of thumbnail sketch I was a member of the LDS Church of all my life five six generations Mormon on all sides taught for the seminary an institute program for 34 years live here in Salt Lake City have four children 13 grandchildren and just enjoying my retirement so now you're retired from the church education system but as you started studying some of these things you began to see that there was more to it than you had been told before wasn't there well that that's true and it's especially in the foundational claims I don't think LDS people realize that they have been informed about the rest of the story so to speak in this would be on that's what my insider's view of Mormon origins is about as a is taking a look at the four foundational visions of the church the the eight witnesses the priesthood restoration the angel gold-plate story and the first vision and all of those they escalate with a telling by Joseph Smith and then the Book of Mormon is the first half of the book the in the four visions are the second half of the book and I found that much my consternation that the Book of Mormon was I think Joseph Smith's novel he had written it himself from the sources that were available to him in in the nineteenth century now that ties into your article because in the same way that sort of the popular story that there was one story from the beginning about Joseph Smith's visions and things like this the the church keeps changing its story in terms of polygamy doesn't it well I think they have it's they've really never been totally upfront with whatever they've had to say about polygamy from the very beginning I don't either to the the leadership hasn't really been upfront with the Mormon people or the media and you can go right back to Joseph Smith and begin to see that I mean he in 1844 he said I've been accused of polygamy but I can I've been accused of having seven wives but I can only find one Emma yeah and at the time he had like 33 wives when it made this statement and even the LDS Church admits that today today they do yes and that's actually in Joseph Smith's history it's not something someone thought they heard somewhere that's right it's in the history of the church though but they haven't been very forthcoming with with what they've had to tell the Mormon people that that comes right down to the Nauvoo expositor or that was that was william law and a few others published this this newspaper and it talked all about Joseph Smith's polygamy and his marrying a young girls and married women and it was declared a nuisance and libelous and was destroyed and that was the trigger that led to his death but today William law hasn't said anything more in that four page one issue newspaper then then the church essay that just came out about three weeks ago so he's I don't know how they can regard him as an anti Mormon anymore because he he just printed what what today they would acknowledge but did not then right and Joseph Smith was the one who ordered that as mayor of Nauvoo didn't he yes that's correct and it just comes down I mean it doesn't matter whether it's Wilford Woodruff and the manifesto Michael Quinn published a big article in dialog magazine a hundred and ten pages on polygamy between the manifestos that's between 1890 and nineteen for I think they owe him an apology they all found Brody an apology but the word sorry doesn't seem to be in the LDS vocabulary at least I have I've not heard him used that word now the the LDS Church you you alluded to the fact that what Lal revealed is now admitted that Joseph Smith was was practicing polygamy but the church actually publicly denied it up until what 1852 and then even in some places publicly announce in 1852 after they came to Utah and this section on polygamy or on marriage I guess was in the 1835 section of the Doctrine and Covenants it went in the 1835 Edition and stayed there until 1876 and then they put the current section on marriage which is 1:32 in the current doctrine covenants which is all about polygamy now the original section 101 from 1835 it says that the church has been accused of fornication and polygamy and so they want to make clear they believe that a woman should have but one husband and a man should have one wife that's what it says in up until 1876 and it's just a long time to leave that in in as much as they announced in 1852 that they're practicing polygamy yeah John publicly John Taylor actually in 1850 pointed to section 101 to dismiss claims of polygamy and yet had multiple wives at the time didn't he well that's what I'm saying they haven't been very honest with the media and they and the the Mormon people right on through on polygamy and I'm I'm sorry to say that I expected more from these recent to polygamy essays which just came out three weeks ago and it's it's it's baby steps forward it's progress it's it's to be cheered on but it is only partially true once again it's a long history of this now even though it's only partially true and doesn't give a full picture of things the what it does reveal comes as news for an awful lot of Latter day things doesn't especially in foreign countries I mean these essays are are on the church website lds.org but you have to go down to gospel topics and then they're kind of hard to find and they haven't put them in the ensign magazine the church's official magazine nor have they translated them into any other language so it's it's kind of hard for of people in foreign lands to to get a hold of this stuff I I've heard from a lot of latter-day saints over the years that polygamy wasn't really practiced in Nauvoo that it was it happened when they came across the plains and people died along the way and there were all these widows and you know this this is actually seem to be a fairly popular idea but Joseph Smith now the LDS Church is saying he had over 40 wives that's what they're admitting to these days in it's the first time they've actually officially admitted it that's that's the news of the essay but yes lots of lots of silly arguments really there's the only 2% of the church practice that well that's that's true if you counted babies and and ten-year-olds and old people but about 25% of the eligible men practice polygamy while it was legal and they use arguments all false arguments that there were more women than men that's never true of the West I'm a Western historian in one of my degrees and that was never the case they were always looking for women to bring them to Utah to convert them and bring them here and often they wouldn't even tell them that the church practice polygamy until they got here and and then they were they didn't have enough money to turn around and go go back to England or Scandinavia I want to focus a little on Joseph Smith and for a moment but I want to take a little bit of a break and invite you we're having some technical difficulties and so we don't have the possibility of having you call in live and be on the air but there is a phone number if you would like to ask questions you're free to call and we'll have your we read your question on the air and answer it it's not our normal number it's actually my cell number sorry for the problem but it's a toe seven five five three zero one three that's a toe one seven five five three zero one three if you you have a question for mr. Palmer you can call in pass that along will read that only air and and then respond so now Joseph Smith in the Book of Mormon denounces polygamy correct yes but Joseph Smith's questionable actions with women go back even before the Book of Mormon don't they yes they start in 1827 just shortly after he's married and he's accused of sexual improprieties by about ten women that I I have included in this article it's called the sexual allegations against Joseph Smith and the beginnings of polygamy in nalu if it's been submitted for publication I haven't heard back yet whether it's going to be published but it's had a wide read on the internet already but yes sir there's ten ten allegations between 27 and right all right up until he died almost by women one of the stories that I've heard over the years as an example of the persecution of Joseph Smith and the LDS Church was him being tarred and feathered but that was actually by some brothers who were accusing him of seducing their sister wasn't it well by Eli Johnson he was a an uncle to two young Miranda and in all fairness the thrust of that that incident which occurred in I think 1831 or two in in Kirtland Ohio was mainly over getting John Johnson the father of Miranda Johnson who's the to give their propertied into a common common law of consecration kind of thing but that was the main issue the but Eli was he thought that Joseph had been making untoward advances towards his niece and Emma and Joseph Smith were staying in the Johnson home and so we don't know if those those those allegations are true it is allegations and frankly we need more information on it but what I found interesting that the reason I put an in that one at one of the ten is because he they the the small mob decided to get the services of a dr. Denison and to castrate Joseph Smith and they went and did it in the middle of the night that sounds like they're aroused more by a kind of passion than a property grab to me so the fact they had procured his services in advanced it doesn't prove anything I think we need more information on that one but the the whole point of the first part of this paper is that here he's being accused by by ten women of untoward advances or he's being accused by ten individuals in a in a fourteen year period in four maybe five different states possibly New York Ohio Missouri Illinois so there's a vania also and you know let me qualify the reason this is important is because it sets a pattern for what even the LDS Church is now admitting that I don't want to jump too far ahead but at least let's touch on it when the LDS Church issues the statement that they believe that a woman should have but one husband and a man should have one wife I understand that there was a bit of legalese there with sort of a wink and a nod that it doesn't say that a man should have but one wife and so this is they're sort of lying for the Lord kind of thing that they're not really lying but they're just purposely misleading and yet they weren't even keeping the first part that's unambiguous Joseph was actually marrying the wives of men who were still alive wasn't it wasn't he yeah at least eleven of them and another five or six another eight women we know turned him down and half of those were already married to living husbands someone someone called in with the question is mr. Paul Morris a born-again Christian now or what are his beliefs now that he has left Mormonism I'm a Christian I I believe in Jesus Christ I've written a book about him which reveals my beliefs is called the incomparable Jesus and get it ad Amazon because I'd suggest you'd take a look at that if you want to if you'd like to call in with any questions the phone number again for this evening only is 801 755 3 0 1 3 I think you can probably also text to that if you if you have a question so there's this once again I just want to give sort of a an overall picture Joseph Smith we know tells one sixteen-year-old girl that an angel with a flaming sword has threatened to kill him if he doesn't if she doesn't marry him isn't that well he told to to married women that who already had husbands that were living Xena Huntington Jacobs he told her that and he also told Mary Rawlins Lightner that and ensign I just felt like she did she couldn't carry that burden so she married Joseph let's so let's back up there there are a number of allegations before Joseph is known to start practicing polygamy but when does he actually begin polygamy well I think he begins it with the Louisa Beaman when he marries her in April 5th 1841 the church is now Saint in their essay that he started as early as 1830 three four or five with a Fanny Alger but there's there's a lack of documentation there's there's no ordinance of the there's no witness there's no ceremony there's and perhaps most important the sealing power was not revealed Joseph Smith by the church's own admission until April 3rd 1836 in the Kirtland temple so he doesn't have sealing powers but there's no ceremony it's illegal in the state of Ohio it's illegal in the state of Missouri it's illegal in the state of Illinois and yet he's doing these things yeah the the LDS Church makes a big deal of the fact that they have to obey the walls of the land yeah it's an article debate right and yet and so that's the reason that they can't allow the kingston's and and the other groups that are still practicing polygamy in the LDS Church and yet not only is it no longer illegal in the state of Utah for polygamy but according to the federal courts but also they weren't following the wall under Joseph Smith were they they were never following the law of the land not in New York well you didn't practice polygamy in New York I know Ohio Missouri Illinois Illinois specifically had walls against yes and not just polygamy per se but fornication adultery and and they wouldn't whatever whatever whatever form they would have want to try to to bring it in under they were violating that wall mm-hmm so so let's go back to Fanny Alger before we come forward to the LDS Church admits that Fanny Alger wasn't polygamous ye food well they're saying that she is because the alternative is adultery so they prefer to have it as a marriage but I just don't think there's any evidence that that that it was a marriage in fact the church there's just no evidence that she was in that category there's no marriage sealing ceremony her record of the ordinance a witness witness was not present no test of a revelation permitting polygamous marriage Joseph Smith may have talked about polygamy and Kirtland but there is no evidence that he practice it until April 5th 1841 in Nabu and the LDS Church believes that Joseph Smith received the keys to seal couples for eternity on April 3rd 1836 not before and then Fanny Alger left the state and quickly rejected counsel by marrying a non LDS person in in not in Indiana something you would not expect from a plural wife so I think the evidence is really thin there but I think they prefer to say that she was his plural first plural life because the alternative is adultery and Fanny Alger was actually what helped lead Calgary out of the church wasn't that's what broke up the friendship between associate President Oliver Cowdery and and that Joseph Smith associate president was higher than a counselor in the First Presidency in fact after this incident Oliver Cowdery says we we have been one now weird two and this is what caused him to disinfect it also calls William laud his other counselor in Nauvoo tallit and also Sidney Reagan when he made a move on Nancy Rigden his 17-year old daughter so polygamy was a big thing that caused an awful lot of problems with in the First Presidency of the leadership of the church I I found it interesting that the first count his first councilor hiring is intent or yes how I reign have hammering he was in on the front page of the paper today talking about how essential monogamy is and yet I've got a few quotes you reminded me of here I'd like to share one unfortunately we don't have a graphic but apostle George a Smith part of the first presidency back in deseret news of April 16th 1856 he says we breathe the free air we have the best looking men and handsomest women and if they envy us our position well they may for they are a poor narrow-minded Pinchbeck race of men who chained themselves down to the wall of monogamy and live all their days under the dominion of one wife they ought to be ashamed of such conduct and still the Fowler channel which flows from their practices journaled is a Journal of discourses vol 11 Brigham Young says that the monogamous system has been quote a fruitful source of prostitution and whoredom throughout all the Christian managua Matic cities of the old and new world yeah and then things have changed yeah the view and then the church's millennial star stayed the one wife system not only degenerates the human family both physically and intellectually but it is entirely incompatible with philosophical notions of immortality it is a lure to temptation and has always proved a curse to a people Wow strong stuff and yet monogamy is essential today it's this this and yet this is supposed to be the restored Church and they're supposed to have a living prophet who can give them all the right answers about the fundamental important things of life I mean if if being if monogamy is so hostile back then why is it essential now well like I say it's things change and they have changed you shared with me a section from Doctrine and Covenants section 128 and I'd like to poll I think we have a graphic on that it's a section 128 of Doctrine covenants now the great and grand secret of the matter and the Summum bonum of the whole subject that is lying before us consists of obtaining the powers of the holy priesthood for him to which these keys are given there is no difficulty in obtaining a knowledge of facts in relation to the salvation of the children of men both as well as the dead as for the living I'm curious your your take on that in the light of what we're seeing well if people want to read that in their doctrine covenants it's it's in there and we just quoted 1:28 verse 11 but go back and read three or four it's basically saying that we have the priest the eldest church has the priesthood of of old from Peter you know he can bind and seal on everything you do anything you want and there's absolutely no difficulty finding out any any information for the living or the dead about about most anything yet and that's kind of a an interesting statement in light of the conclusion of the recent essay by the church I don't know if we have that graphic or not I think we may have the conclusion of that do we do we have that graphic if you could pull that up church members no longer practice plural marriage consistent with Joseph Smith's teachings the church permits a man whose wife has died to be sealed to another woman when he remarries moreover members are permitted to perform ordinances on behalf of deceased men and women who married more than once owner sealing them to all of the spouses to whom they were legally married yes and in that conclusion to their recent essay which is on lds.org it says they no longer practice polygamy but they have not repudiated the principle of polygamy and then they give several examples right there one of them is if your wife dies that you've been sealed to in a temple you can the man at lease and go marry another woman or throughout history there's been men and women who've married multiple times because they died when they were young and the template work is done for all of those unions if a woman has three husbands they're all sealed to her and and if a man has five wives and none of them are sealed they do proxy work and they seal them that way to to you know to be together in the next world but the question they haven't really asked is while they've repudiated the practice in this life what about the principle and the practice of it in the next life and that's where they don't get into it in this essay is it required or is it optional because the first six presidents of the LDS Church that's Joseph Smith Brigham Young John Taylor Wilford Woodruff Lorenzo snow and Joseph F Smith said it if you want to get to the highest degree of the celestial kingdom you must it is required that you practice polygamy that's what the first six presidents have said now the church has trait change the definition to just mean one wife and one husband that are sealed in a temple but that's not what the early leaders said and I am a product of polygamy my grandparents on one side were polygamists and I I knew my grandmother especially she she lived till 1975 and I asked her as a returned missionary once I says why did you practice polygamy she was the second wife and she says because we were promised that we would be guaranteed the top tier of the celestial kingdom and I looked at her like but I can do the same thing with one woman and she didn't have an answer to that and I wasn't a historian then and I didn't know now I know why she answered that way that's the way it used to be that was a require it wasn't optional and many LDS and early church leaders all believed God in Christ were both polygamists and you do with the file leader wants you to do and the six first six prophets say you must be a polygamist to get into the highest degree of the celestial kingdom something they're not saying right now so once the law of the land is removed in the next world does the principle return is it required or is it optional and you noticed in that graphic of the conclusion of the of the polygamy paper what they what the church said well we'll sort this out in the next world this will be we'll just have to trust in God but that's not what section 128 verse 11 is saying it's saying there is no difficulty for he who holds all these keys and that's the president of the church which is today is Thomas Thomas s Monson that he can ask any question pertaining to the salvation of the living or the dead and there's no difficulty in getting an answer it seems to me that there are many many women in this in the LDS Church who would like to know a definitive answer for that and that may affect how they feel about the church in the future I think we actually cut off the last part of that conclusion to that paper is that can we bring up the second half the precise nature of these relationships in the next life is not known and many family relationships will be sorted out in the life to come latter-day saints are encouraged to I can't make out that in our why is it very trust in our Heavenly Father who loves his children and does all things for their spiritual growth and salvation a quick question someone someone called in were Smith's marriage is symbolic for salvation purpose or purposes or were they physically consummated they were physically consummated but you have to understand that this is the Victorian era and a lot of these women didn't they had a Victorian reserve they didn't want to talk about what they had done in the bedroom and and they didn't and sometimes we just have poor records but there's at least 11 13 of them that we know for certain because they said so that they had had physical relationships sexual relationships with Joseph Smith it's in this paper yeah and for people who want to read the paper this is this can be found on Mormon think calm yes just just go to Mormon think calm put in home page it'll come up or if you or Grant Palmer if you want to just go to Google put grant Palmer home page it'll come right up and then you go to the to to the website Mormon think and everything I've done the last 12 years is there including this paper I'm curious were you aware back when you were active LDS were you aware that Joseph Smith had married other men's wives at some point I think I knew about several of them but for some reason it just didn't stick it didn't register I've heard some people try to say well these were just women who after Joseph died they were married for time but they hadn't been sealed for eternity and so they were sealed to Joseph you know just out of their love and devotion we have the documentation on on a good number of these marriages we we know who performed the ceremony we know who the witnesses were it's and we know that he had a physical sexual relationship with them so no and some of these girls are are are young you know I think there's about 11 of them there were teenagers and it's just kind of interesting how the church often teaches this way that in the essay they say well he married one 14 year old girl well they're 50% right on that fact he actually married two he married Nancy Winchester who was 14 and Helen mark Kimball who is 14 so you have to go through this and as you do that's why I'm said at the outside this is partially true it's it's a step forward it really is baby steps forward but there's still much that is just simply not not accurate I mean not only was she 14 and they say well it was it was not against the law of the land and that's technically true but Joseph Smith to marry a fourteen-year-old girl that made him a polygamist that was against the law of the land and he's 38 years old and she's 14 and he's a religious leader and you need to understand that only less than 1% of the 19 1840 census had girls getting married at 14 and only 3 to 5% age 15 to 17 so this is pretty unusual stuff they just kind of just slide over this they don't you know they don't talk about it the obstacle trues sometimes it's just outright falsehoods but that's that's what they've chosen to do this time and all these essays have similar kinds of problems some are more honest than others but this polygamy one has had some troubles Joseph's not only took other men's wives and there were questions at least for one of those wives she thought that her daughter was Joseph Smith didn't say humming there named her Josephine but no proof from the DNA but look that this is what gets me about some of the apologists they they say well he married her they didn't have sex I don't know how they know that number one especially when Josephine or Patti sessions Windsor Patti sessions lyon ly on2 tells her daughter that you are Joseph Smith's daughter well I don't know if she is or not but it certainly sounds like they had sex if she thought he she Joe Safina was her daughter and Joseph Smith so so they do these kind of things that confuse people from an LDS perspective - - I mean it's horrible enough I mean it's cultic to take another man's wife while them and say you know if you really want to be godly you're gonna give me your wife some people trying to say well that was just for eternity but I mean when we it's clear it's not just returning but also time time is part of eternity but but but it from an LDS perspective even the ceiling for eternity they just end up without a wife you know the this the the well this was sorted out in the next world that's what they're lumping all that in the conclusion but you know from from a Christians point of view Joseph Smith when he asked at what point does Joseph Smith break the Ten Commandment the the audience can decide for themselves the tenth commandment says thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife it's very clear when he holds her hand when he kisses her when he goes further when he marries her when he has sex I mean what at what point is he violating that commandment and then then all these women that turn him down he doesn't say anything if they just quietly don't do anything but if they go public he smears their character and there's a big section in this paper on that I mean there's there's eight or nine women that he smears their character because they went public and said that he made these advances towards them and they they didn't appreciate it so he smears the character now you're into the eighth commandment thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor and he just systematically is breaking this thou shalt not commit adultery number seven and I don't know what you even call some of these relationships some of these they don't even claim to be wives of Joseph Smith for example Melissa Schendel she's uh she's she just I think she's a concubine that which is a kind of a concubine which is kind of like a wife for the night and you find that in in three or four of these women but Lucinda Harris a mrs. fuller Sarah Pratt he's asking her not for marriage but for to be a concubine I have the keys of Jacob of old and Jacob had both wives and concubines you see one of the things that people will say is that well polygamy was practiced in the Old Testament it was practiced but it was never commanded and Joseph says that it's a commandment and threatens Emma horribly if he doesn't submit to it but he also violates very specific Old Testament restrictions marrying sisters and mothers and daughters and they'll they'll throw up David as an example David committed adultery - but David repentant Joseph never repented did he to me it's much more serious than that though because I don't know of any prophet in the Old Testament including Jesus or any prophet in the New Testament that said that marriage was necessary to get to heaven and when you read section 132 and the current doctrine covenants it says that whoever is commanded to do this they have to do it or they're damned so Jesus all the prophets say that marriage is not required for heaven Joseph Smith says yes it is whether you think he's talking about polygamy or one wife and a ceiling it's not necessary according to the Bible but as you say the Bible does not direct any one to practice polygamy there's there's no evidence in the Bible that God ever commanded or directed any prophet were King and most of the time these were unfortunate personal relationships and Kings were actually forbidden from multiplying wives yeah in Deuteronomy it it's true I think David inherited a couple of wives from us from Saul but these these relationships didn't work out very well in the Old Testament they they weren't very successful yeah Rachel and Leah's difficulties carried over to their to their children so Joseph Smith says well I'm here to restore I'm this I mean I'm involved in the restoration of all things and yet there's no it doesn't seem it seems highly improbable to me that God would restore something that was a cultural behavior not a direct doctrine or commandment from God now Joseph Smith believes it's a direct commandment of God and he uses Abraham Isaac and Jacob as examples but there's no evidence for this well in the same way that in the Book of Abraham he says God commanded him to lie and we're told over and over that God is not a man that he should lie yeah God doesn't do that yeah but we have a question since they didn't stop practicing polygamy after the first manifesto did that jeopardize the legal standing of Utah as a state is this what Utah became a state in eighteen eighteen ninety six yeah and they were still practicing polygamy up through 19 for my grandmother got married in nineteen three and then after 19 four they they they started getting serious about disciplining people but even as late as nineteen fourteen Joseph F Smith was was only disa disciplining the man but I think after the second manifesto maybe 1910 on they started excommunicating women that we're practicing polygamy as well as the men where the was there an expectation to put away the wife or was it just not to add any new wives after this after the second manifesto no new wives my grandfather was called in 1910 by Frances Lyman president of the quorum of the twelve and he says have you taken any new wives no well your high councilor but we're gonna release you because we don't we don't want any more questions so they released him so they started but it took him look it took him a while but the question is what the yeah they weren't going to they weren't going to let Utah become a state until they were sure that the the practice of polygamy was put to bed but during that time of the double man at 9:00 to 1890 the first manifesto and the second manifesto half the quorum of the twelve took new wives and they were not being truthful to the media to the government to the Mormon people or to each other within the First Presidency that's how bad it was Michael Quinn pointed that out and that's one of the reasons they went after his membership they didn't like that but it's true they owe him an apology and you know my grandmother or my mother always grew up thinking she was kind of on the shady side of things and and the Apostles would tell her that it was a gray area and this kind of thing but she always felt bad until she read Quinn's article and found out the whole the the apostles were doing this and then my mother felt a tremendous relief and I told Michael Quinn that he says that's why I wrote the articles for mutton for for for people like your mother the they've never been forthcoming they've never you know this is supposed to be something delivered by God and yet they they they lied about Fanny Alger in those days they lied when they were clearly practicing polygamy burns all the way through burned the press of the Nauvoo expositor 1844 lied about it until 1852 when it was made public here in Utah but they still kept lying to people outside of Utah didn't they all the time that even even two converts yeah I mean any converse didn't know the polygamy is practiced in the Utah Valley until they got here I mean I have read the story I can't think of the way ladies name tell it all have Fannie Stenhouse if anything else you know she was hearing these stories of polygamy and they were lying to even though it had been publicly admitted they were lying to the converts in Britain and telling them no no no no no it's all the way through that's why I'm saying it to the median to the Mormon people themselves that leaders have never become clean and this essay doesn't come clean either but it is a step forward it's a it's a big step for them but it's not just polygamy that's the problem it's all of these issues and you can read about them an insider's view of Mormon origins I mean the foundational claims the church have all gone through some rather significant embellishments the eight witnesses the priesthood restoration the the first vision the Book of Mormon the Book of Abraham and DNA it just goes on and on and I think what saddens me is some of you the audience will know who Jeremy Reynolds is he's he's become a friend of mine and we've gone to lunch and talked a few times and he if you don't know him by name you knowing he wrote the CES letter to an institute director and he did it in good faith and honesty it was 82 pages he's he said he essentially boiled down my book and and then added some polygamy stuff into but he honestly would like to know the answers and the Institute director said he would answering but he never did and no one has answered him well in the last three weeks his stake president he lives it doesn't matter where he lives it's called him and twice and says your membership is at risk for for writing this this essay and it's gone viral it's gone everywhere it's been very very popular and it's very convincing and if I recommend to the audience that they take a look at it if you want to really what happened in Mormon history but my point here is that the stake president doesn't know about anything on these issue and he's rather typical and the church leadership at the top doesn't bother to inform these state presidents and bishops and they're holding church courts on people like Jeremy I don't know if Jeremy's Court is going to happen quite yet I honestly don't know but I know he's had two meetings with his state president and and and what I would say to to the LDS people this kind of problem is happening all over this church and and there's a lot of pain and there's a lot of suffering and a lot of driving of wedges through families because the family thinks that the people like me or Jeremy or some of these other historians of or out of the way that there's something wrong with us the problem is not us folks I'm telling you the truth and if it hasn't happened in your family that someone has left over historical and foundational issues they will so what I would ask you tonight if you're willing when you get a chance please tell your bishops and stake presidents that since the church can't answer these problems on the foundational claims of the church including a lot of the polygamy stuff than to just leave writers alone don't excommunicated don't hold church courts because they're framing the issue for these courts not whether what is what we're saying is true or false they're framing it as well you're 82 page CES letter cause damage to faith that's what they told me about my book you see and if they don't if they can't answer it and since they can't answer it then it seems to me they should just leave us alone because I don't really think that God drives wedges through families I don't think God's in an organization that does that and that's what's happening they're sitting by and letting it happen and nobody's doing anything about it they just pick us off one by one well it's the reason that I focus on this is that Joseph Smith is claiming that he is a prophet who trumps everything in here yes and when you started it when you when you no longer we're reading the Bible through the the set of glasses given to you by Joseph Smith and his successors did you find the same God that you thought are that they were talking about before an exalted man and one among many gods no two or three years ago we had a session and I talked about the Mormon Jesus and the New Testament Jesus in there we spent the whole hour on it I remember yeah and it's on YouTube yeah it's on YouTube if you will the the better answer is to go look at that because I have quite a bit to say about that yes quite a bit of difference there the the appeal we try to make to folks is that just because there's a counterfeit doesn't mean there's not a genuine and yet the experience I have had from most latter-day saints is they think that if if if they give up on Joseph there's nothing else out there would you say that's a fair assessment of what I I would I I think they just have you know they had such trust in Mormonism and and when that crumbled they just says I'm not going to be duped again and they don't take a serious look at the New Testament if they were hearing these same stories from Jim Jones or David Koresh or something like that they would be horrified that a man would claim to be a prophet of God and tell them and gods commanded that I take your wife which is something nowhere you find anything like that in the Bible no like I say thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's knife that's number 10 in Exodus 20 yeah and not commit adultery and all these other things and yet here's this guy who's taking his followers wives he's threatening these women with death I mean can you share it we've only got a few minutes left can you share the what Joseph told Emma and in terms of polygamy and the threats that she received if she did not submit well it's right in the doctrine covenants if you want to read it at section 132 vers 51 through 4 and Emma did not know about Joseph polygamy he never bothered to tell her except that she discovered him with a couple of these girls the miss Hill and Fanny Alger she caught them in the barn and that's the first she knew about Fanny Alger but she they somehow got past that but in it was in June of 43 when Joseph already had 21 wives is when she really found out that he was a polygamist and so she says well if you can do it I can too and I would like your second counselor William law this has the most amazing first presidency in the Elias church's history in the early 40s you've got that you've got two president of the church hits on the first councilors wife that's Sidney Rigdon daughter Nancy he's hitting on the second councilors wife a little later on and and and then john bennett is hitting on everyone using the name of joseph that's your first presidency and then joseph is hitting on like I said the first councilors wife the second councilors wife and an Emma who's the head of the Relief Society for the whole church she's she wants the second councillor William law for a substitute sex partner because Joseph can do it so can i and that and and it's that's what's they're talking about in section 132 verse 51 through 54 and the very first line of that verse 51 it says that that she is that the if agrees that agree that this is okay and then they go to William and Jane Law and they say are you crazy and we're not doing this and and so then Joe's is all I just testing you like Abraham you can read it in the verse 52 3 & 4 of 132 and and then Emma's just told you're not to have any other husbands or any other sexual partners you must accept polygamy and if you don't do it you're going to get destroyed and if you look at her own comments he shows that she thought Joseph Smith was going to kill her well according to Brigham Young it you have this fantasy Disney version of Emma and Joseph where sugar wouldn't melt in their mouths but according to Brigham Young Joseph Smith said that she was the damndest liar in the world and there was no more wicked woman in the world than she and that she tried to poison him well and see in the u.s. a wonderful their relationship is and you know she tried to get a divorce when she went in st. Louis and there were 11 poisonings in Nauvoo between 39 and 46 when they left in February and number 11 was Emma a poisoning Joseph and all by the way all those poisonings had to do with polygamy they're either too eager to practice polygamy and they got poisoned or they were too much against it and they they got poisoned and this wasn't just Brigham Young making an offhand comment this was stated at General Conference yeah well you can't you can't go 100% with what Brigham always says but the divorce was real and I think she really did tried to poison him because what do you do you don't have social security you don't have a woman just doesn't go out and get a job in the 1840s and her parents are dead up in Pennsylvania I mean she's she's an unhappy camper but that's not portrayed in the essay that came out three weeks ago that's what I'm saying partial truth some falsehoods somehow instigation but it's it's all there it's always been there but they are state making steps forward here believe it or not do you agree with Jesus a statement you know the truth and the truth shall make you free set you free yes well hey we're unfortunately out of time great privilege to have you with us and thank you so much for coming thanks for inviting me it's been our privilege to have with us mr. grant Palmer the author of an insider's view of Mormon origins he has a new article at Mormon think come on Joseph Smith you can go there and read that if you'd like more information on him or anything else you can also give us a call at Christ Presbyterian Church 801 nine six nine seven nine four eight or go to our website Gospel Utah org we invite you to worship with us at Christ Presbyterian Church Sunday mornings Sunday School at 9:45 worship at eleven our address is 86 thirty West 2700 South that's Magna Main Street we have simple reverent worship and biblical preaching we have a sister congregation Berean Presbyterian that meets in Ogden at 3350 Harrison Boulevard at 9:00 a.m. as I said for more information go to our website gospel utah org and we hope to have this on the on youtube in the next day or two until next week we wish to the world's greatest blessings goodnight

Channel: undefined

Views: 19,492

Rating: 4.659091 out of 5

Keywords: Jesus, God, Christ, Lord, Bible, Christian, Christianity, Gospel, truth, salvation, Word, Religion, scripture, theology, doctrine

Id: JJyH6rlDXVA

Length: 58min 8sec (3488 seconds)

Published: Fri Nov 21 2014

Reddit Comments

[u/nehor90210]

Wow, I'd never noticed the scripture Grant mentioned, where D&C 128:11 says: "For him to whom these keys are given there is no difficulty in obtaining a knowledge of facts in relation to the salvation of the children of men, both as well for the dead as for the living."

Whereas the church is always saying about messy sealings, "God will work it all out in the end." They don't know how it's all supposed to work with divorces and multiple spouses, and who's sealed to whom, but this scripture says that for the church president (and perhaps, by extension, for all the temple sealers who get delegated the sealing power) there is "no difficulty" in obtaining facts regarding someone's salvation.

[u/matt2001]

This is a worthwhile interview. Interesting material toward the end of the video (Jeremy Runnels, Emma & William Law) around 44 minutes to the end.

Here is a link to his material:

http://mormonthink.com/grantpalmer.htm

Here is a wikipedia on Grant Palmer:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grant_H._Palmer

[u/amisoz]

That pastor seems like he just walked off of the set of True Detective. Sorry, but that's my first impression.

[u/matt2001]

Here is another one that I found, his Aha moment (exmormon speech 2012):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHsvZooc4Bc