Talk Heathen 03.10 with Eric Murphy & Jim Helton

[Applause] does this place even exist anymore hey Jamie you don't all right buddy Jamie [Music] [Applause] hold on Jim Helton that is I holy [ __ ] all right now I get your return let's go [Music] all right hello and welcome to talking bad I'm Eric Murphy I'm Jim help in its March 10th 2019 it is season 3 episode 10 and I'm so excited holy crap I live studio audience you know we don't really mention it very often but if you want to come and see us live you can come down to the Atheist community of Austin every Sunday 1:00 p.m. Central and come in and sit in this live studio audience it's free we've got the seats come on down and say hi come and meet us 15:07 West Canaan Glen Austin Texas and Jim Helton Jim I was so jealous when Jamie got to have you on and now I get to have you all to myself I'm excited about this it was great to be on and I'll never forget the moment when the when the caller called in and said he could prove God existed because the Garden of Eden was hidden in the pyramid haha we had a video camera to the audience Eric jumped out of his seat and was crawling at the windows of the studio I literally all got up and was like I just felt like Eric should come in here because he was just calling that the windows like it's even see scratch I was alone in the glass I was chewing on the trash to get in here to get part of this amazing conversation and I think Mike my mouth just hit the floor literally I was speechless I I didn't know what to say at first cuz I was like wow that's amazing it was beautiful I'm so excited oh my gosh okay so lines are almost full we've got plenty of atheists and we've got a few theists but if you would like to call in if you're a religious person will save this last line for you you can call five one two six eight six zero two seven nine that's five one two six eight six zero two seven and talk to us Jim I know that you've already gotten the the chance to introduce yourself but I would just like to say field organizer for american atheists former president of tri-state freethinkers man who didn't you organize the protest out in front of the Ark Encounter yes so I live in between the Creation Museum in Ark Encounter and I organized a protest every year with the tri-state freethinkers and partnered with American atheist Planned Parenthood even sponsored it last year we put up a 15-foot banner in front of the Ark and we called it genocide and incest Park made international news change the story of what's actually going on there we do the protest every year July 6 come out I know you're gonna be there heck yeah super excited to do to have talked heathen and the atheist experience an atheist community I'll stand out there but if it's it's a must if you're an atheist and you like to protest and organize you need to come out there who's who of activism it's a phenomenal experience to experience what goes on at that protest oh my gosh I'm so excited I remember before I got really involved with you know too involved with the ACA I remember watching what you were doing and thinking holy crap if only and now I've got you on my freakin show I'm stoked and I can't wait to get you at the Ark protest and for everybody you should come to Kentucky July 6 III think they should come to other things actually even sooner doesn't as an American atheist doing something we have a little something going on Easter weekend and I know you heathens aren't doing anything Easter weekend and if you need an excuse to not go see your family come April 19th to the 21st is the American atheist convention in my hometown of Cincinnati super excited Jim augur fell the Supreme Court decision for marriage equality will be our keynote speaker and a big addition to the American atheist mention is the introduction of workshops multiple days of if you want to get involved in your community you want to want to learn how to grassroots organize you want to take on sex education LGBT issues the separation of religion government take on project blitz which is a huge problem testify in front of your state houses my daughter 14 year old testified against the six week abortion ban we will write the testimony help you testify on behalf of yourself and your local group come to the convention learn how to do all these amazing things and hear great speakers and famous people like Eric here uh yeah well actually I'm gonna be I'm gonna be I mean are gonna be there we're gonna be on the main stage that's on Saturday at 1:00 p.m. talk Haven is going to be going for its second year to the American atheist convention followed by the atheist experience this genius wears hat again no no I will burn it no he can wear his hat that's fine but yeah definitely get your tickets get it now because I know that there is scarcity and we want to make sure that if you want to get there you and if your student there's a seven thousand dollar grant available to get students there that need help with travel a lot really to get students there go to atheists org you can get all the information there's also local rates or hardship rates if money's preventing you from coming you know there are options for you to get you this convention because we want you there that's amazing you know I and I absolutely loved the way that they handled a lot of things at the last convention there was this effort to you know prevent sexual harassment and it was such a simple thing to do there are these lanyards and you'd have buttons and there was a button that said you know mingle you know or you know first time you know first time at a convention you know different things you can say about yourself how long you been an atheist whatever but one of them said you know I you know I'm ready single and ready to mingle and that was kind of a way of saying okay I'm okay with coming up and being talked to about that that that was an impact yeah you could see if you were if you wanted to say I was LGBT I went to mingle so people know to talk to you because that's always the thing at conventions people are there to learn yeah and don't always want to be hit on there they want to learn and this was a great way to say hey you know I am here to learn or hey I'm open to conversations at the bar and you could easily take it off yeah okay I'm done I'm done now and uh you know it I was very happy with the response we we got from that well you know when it comes to sex ed I've gotten to see your talks and if you haven't gotten to see Jim talk follow him and find a way to get to see it cuz it is a really really you know it's a treat and I know that I'm getting to geek out cuz I get you on the show today and so I wanted to kind of just ask you to share just a little bit about what you've done with the sex ed in particular I mean the way you've used that as a vehicle to create connections and grassroots is something that I think everybody should it's the number one issue we're taking on because it covers so many issues but I talked to atheist they always say you know is this really an atheist issue or I really care about separation religion and government and this is exactly what sex that is you know we're not it helps the LGBT community it helps our youth helps education it does all these things there's only 13 states that require comprehensive sex ed there's only eight states that require consent and we are actually having an impact I'm going in there and saying I'm Jim help with American atheist shaking these superintendent's hands principal hands and within six months usually or less we're getting sex ed taught properly so much so that organizations like Planned Parenthood hell you know departments of health are asking us to help with training on how to implement these programs with our success rate and if you care about separation and religion and government we're working with school boards we're working with superintendents they like us these are popular issues to help them so when we see a nativity scene go up with a school it's a simple call or email like my bad Jim will take it down or a training we're not having to send attorney letters we're not having to send lawsuits because we have relationships with these schools now and it just changed everything and how we're included in the community for other events it's normalized a theum so if you care about separation religion government get involved in sex ed in your school because it's an issue we can win and we are winning and yes yes absolutely and if you want help if you want that support definitely check out what Jim is up to you have an a you have a program called aces that you're using you're going around the country helping people out and that is so incredibly close to my heart that is absolutely what I want to see everywhere I am so jealous of the amount of work and I'm so in awe of the work that you put in to get there dude yeah I am a boots-on-the-ground activist you know we want to do activism community education social build a true community for atheists and that's what we did with the tri-state freethinkers in Cincinnati Northern Kentucky we want to share that business model around the country to help groups get involved in their community and it makes a difference when we went to Cincinnati I remember American atheist conventions passed and I was told some of the stories like they didn't want the American atheist convention where the American atheist was have to say will pay full price just let us go when we would came to Cincinnati in Northern Kentucky the city wine dust dined us what do we have to do to get your business we want you here can we have lapel pins for our staff to wear that say American Atheists yeah can we what you know the room rates the rooms are beautiful with the Netherland Hilton Plaza $250 a night they go how about $109 you know we they had a five-star restaurant where like these are $100 meals this is beautiful but our people like to drink and have a good time we need you know 10 $20 sandwich they go we'll get rid of their five-star restaurant for you you know while you're here we'll make this affordable what else do you need they were so accommodating just showing the work we've done working in the community where hey this isn't a dirty word where the community embraced us and I'm so excited to have a community that wants us there and we're starting to see that not in Cincinnati in other cities as well and it's just it's just an amazing experience to be surrounded by so many people and outside the Atheist community that accept atheism dude I love that I love that and that means that it gives the rest of us a chance to to see how it's done and then be able to copy it and and I didn't know that all that stuff about the hotel yeah holy crap alright so here's the deal come down to the American atheist convention I will see you at the bar after after the last Rose come and sit down have a drink with me I'd love to meet you and then one other thing and that is before that here in Austin there's gonna be a theist day and that's going to be on March 23rd and I think we have a video I think we have a video Oh bummer the merit the the the video of March 23rd around the Wizard secular groups are gathering this market to celebrate the first international atheist Day while we encourage atheist groups to come together and celebrate we invite you to join us because lacking religion does not release me to hate I think in many parts of the world for those people this is kind of an [ __ ] I can't have a tragic consequences because it's time to create an international community because where we can be counted we should stand up this March 23rd and join us as we demand to be counted [Music] that looks amazing great I think I need to change my plans and I might have to do can we get you out here will you come and join us I think I should come and join us yeah it looks like it a mere pressure it peer pressure I'm Pierre price all right good have your people doesn't even happen huh all right I think it's time to get into calls what do you think I'm ready let's go all right let's start with talking to Winston Winston in Tokyo hey we can Winston you're live with Eric and Jim Alton thanks hello Eric and Jim I'd like to talk about something I've I've observed and then I'll ask for your thoughts sir well basically I know that if you work at a suicide hotline the first thing they tell you is to listen to the other person on the end of the phone and when I was a teenager I tried to talk to someone about my problems and they wouldn't they wouldn't even listen to me so they pushed me closer to suicide instead of pulling me back and that really made me feel awful I'm so sorry to hear that man that sounds terrible yeah it's it's like it's like going to a counselor's office to talk about why you want to kill yourself and then having the counselors hit you in the head as soon as you answer so you know you can get a word out I am you know we talk about mental health and we talk about depression and suicide I know that's one of those things that make us different from the Atheist experience and and I've actually been getting a lot of letters recently about it and it's Winston are you okay right now yes I've managed to move on the lot in the past 20 years I'm living a stable happy life now then wanting to talk about that I pushed her I'm sorry no then wanting to talk about is really really important Winston are you familiar with the secular therapy project yeah you should Google secular therapy project they have I know you're in Tokyo but they also have therapists that are willing to do online talk that go through a screening process that are giving evidence-based solutions and helping you so that you don't get that counselor there's nothing worse than your time of need and you get that counselor that says you need to go to church or find God to solve your problems these have all been vetted so and and and Winston if you're doing okay then this is definitely good for people who are watching hey Jim where can people go if they want to look up the second of your therapy project secular therapy org yeah so I in the notes I see that the it says and why believers are making the problem worse you know it's funny guys go ahead I'm not just believers but I would say her life is in particular because if you ask them oh if you you tell if you try to tell them your problem so they'll dismiss it or they'll say that it's not really a problem and at at that point you pretty much feel like slapping them across the face to knock some sense into them oh dude did you see last week's episode I was told that if things are wrong with me because I masturbate yes horrible oh no it's actually wonderful you should masturbation is Fenton right oh man oh but yeah you know it's it's interesting because you know I keep saying you know this is not a thing I'm just gonna take a breath we were up late Jim I blame you we were up really late less working hard board games and you know Winston it drives me crazy when I take a look at the way churches will say you know you need us right there's a god-shaped hole in your heart and when people like the person last week would call in and say it's because you masturbate that things are wrong you're abusing control it's a tool it breaks her leg to sell you a crutch and I totally get it and I've actually been talking to people this last week somebody reached out and said that they were having this issue in their personal life I'm not going to go into the details but what we find is we have to be the the better person we have to be the one to you know be empathetic understanding kind and forgiving and it's so tough especially when you're in crisis when you're in a place where you need the help and somebody says well you're broken here's how you do it you you you go into this church and and that's the reasons because you don't have church you don't actually get to address the issues at hand and potentially you could be picking up more issues in the future people call in and they say oh well what's wrong with religion you're attacking it but it does so much good it does so much harm - right you have indoctrination you have people who are ashamed of their sex people who are pushed to disown their own family members and in times of need for mental health you have this excuse that God somehow created you broken and you just need them to fix it no where's more apparent than that than in conversion therapy yeah btq were they they send these kids do conversion therapy and the result is they're eight times more likely to commit suicide going through this therapy and across the country what we're seeing is bills to ban conversion therapy and I encourage people to check on their state to support something like that and Winston - - some of the things that you said you know what concerned me is when someone I heard did you say that someone told you like that that wasn't a problem and and and it may be myself yeah it shouldn't be myself or anybody telling you it's not a problem if it's affecting you it's a problem if it's impacting on you it's a problem and you know and you know and I and I encourage you and I'm so glad you said that you're doing well and it's obviously you said mentioned 20 years which is an impact but make sure you have friends you can talk to or a professional to help you through this there are people that are here for you there's a community here that you know that that supports you to make sure you know you get the help that you need that you're okay and if it's impacting you it's an issue and and needs to be addressed and no one should dismiss that absolutely and when it comes to the community I'm have I'm proud to tell you that even though you're in Tokyo you can absolutely get in touch with us and talk to us if you haven't joined us on facebook or on reddit or on discord you absolutely should we have an incredible group I'm taking a look we just got a $6 and 66 cents donation from someone named Guillaume who is in Quebec right so I'm talking to somebody in Tokyo you know with support from Quebec in Austin Texas right we have volunteers all over the world and it doesn't matter where you are I know that we say this all the time but this is your community and you can reach out online a we can we will reach back and when said if you need something fun find something you can do to relieve your stress or as an ally like Eric and I play board games and since we talked to you we're gonna play king of Tokyo yeah I think to relieve our stress no have something that you can do you know that that helps you you know for me and Eric like we play board games yeah and that helps me you know nothing better than getting in Tokyo it's like Yahtzee but with monsters and you get to kill people it's a nice dress really yeah go pick it up it I would Wow another $50 donation don't spend it all on them thank you technical Terry we we've been getting a lot if you'd like to support us actually I should probably say this well I'll finish the call Winston Winston thank you for calling in man we appreciate it thanks for talking to me thank you thank you thank you and ferd California Denmark Sweden holy moly you're everywhere this is awesome um if you want to support what we do you can go to patreon.com/crashcourse and we love it thank you help us grow and as always about halfway through the episode I'm going to be hopping onto patreon patreon and thanking our top five patrons so I will be refreshing it during the show so if you want to hop on and become one of our top 5 patrons I'll be thanking you by name within the hour that was nice yeah I think it's time to move to a theist caller what do you think I like it let's move on to Jonathan Jonathan in Arizona you're talking to Eric and Jim how you doing are you guys doing all right man doing all right I got to see Jim speak at a at a secular group this morning and I it's it's funny because this guy that I'm sitting you know playing board games with yesterday sits down and he can just fire up a room so quickly when it comes to local boots-on-the-ground activism it blows my mind man so I'm happy to be sitting next to Jim and talking to you Jonathan what would you like to talk about well uh three or four weeks ago I think I called but guy you guys at the very end of the show and told you I'll try to call back as soon as I could and yeah it was a we had the conversation that was pretty pretty detailed on the existence of objective morality and stuff and you were I think well Matt was Ben Matt was in the audience and said to call the Atheist experience and then he would uh you know go over some more information with me which I did and what uh what essentially he said was if we agree on what is if we agree on well-being being like the objective factor that yeah we can we can make the objective assessments on reaching that goal of well-being which makes perfect sense but I'm still like I've always been hung up on the the subjective like connotation of that so to me it's I still can't understand why it's not subjective even if we all agree on what what what we believe in is moral and I still can't get around that well let's let's kind of have a bit of a thought experiment maybe I can help I think last time we talked I had said that I think in the moment you can't really get to objective morality but you can armchair quarterback your way to it right you can look you can look back at it and take a look at the circumstances so let's say you have circumstance X right and you have so many options right it is limited it is finite you can't just fly into the air like neo there are so many things that you can do in a given moment so if we agree on the objective write the objective part of the objective morality and tease out those different actions you can come to a most preferable one and at that time you can say that that is the objectively most moral thing to do right or the by that standard right you may not get that chance in the moment well most of the time you won't but it's funny because people don't expect it right Jonathan if you're in a super stressful circumstance to do the best that you do most of the time people will say you know what they did the best that they could I mean I don't know where you would need to go from there is there some part of it that that is is holding you up I know that it might seem uncomfortable thinking that we are limited to subjective experience but we are right I have my eyes and I can't tell you know whether or not what I'm seeing is I do my best by by confirming with other people right but my sense perception is mine we just do the best we can yeah and still it doesn't make sense for me it's not a matter of comfort it's just a matter of what you know watch it what is true and if we can if we can say that human well-being is the objective goal and then we can make assessments on what is an objective what is objective to reaching that goal you know it seems by using that reason we could actually say that human suffering we can make that a goal and make objective assessments on how to make that moral absolutely yeah yeah actually it's really fun to do that in Dungeons and Dragons I've played D&D I'm a really big nerd Jonathan I'm not gonna lie to you I'm a really big nerd and in D&D you can play a character with a different moral alignment a different moral code and so what they choose as moral may not be human well-being it might be what is in service to their deity right and those kinds of paladin's can be wild and it ranks as moral to them evidence-based solutions when people are trying to do it from a religious point of view of this is my morality and we can look at it to say is this helping people or hurting people you're doing this based on dog but not evidence this these issues like when I talked about ban conversion therapy er you know you're hurting children this is not a good thing this is not moral is what you're doing educating people and sex is this helping children or or hurting them you know comprehensive sex that's helping them so we can clearly make these distinctions on the choices we make the legislation we pass is this helping people or hurting them and then analyse accordingly a lot of these issues that we think are complicated aren't people just don't like the answers that's what it boils down to like we know what our problems are we know what the solutions are you just don't like the answer because you're you know a specific dogma might say you can't do this but it's very clear what should be done yeah yeah and that doesn't make sense and it's not a for me personally it's not a matter if I don't like the answer it might it could definitely be that I'm not convinced of cancer but whether I like it or not it's not relative to me on whether I believe it's true okay and so what's the stumbling block maybe I maybe I'm missing the point well I guess what is uh I guess as you put a stumbling block is the only way that it is objectively true that rape is objectively immoral is if the person uses well-being as a source of objective morality but if they don't then raping somebody is not immoral and I just don't believe that well you know but you can see it in practice right you can look back I mean you can open up the Bible and find in the Old Testament God saying you know go in and kill all of the the men all the women who've known children all the women who've known men all the children and keep the young women who have not known a man to yourself you know that they're yours to do with what you want and you see that in militaries going throughout human history right people going in and and you know freeing a city and then tormenting the people right it's not nice I wish we didn't live in that world but to the best of my knowledge that's the one we live in right so did I think do you agree with what I'm saying though that if a person doesn't view human well-being as what is objectively moral then if they do something that if you know causes human suffering they're not really doing anything wrong they're not doing anything immoral because they don't use that standard that that you and I might use well you know it's funny we're we're social creatures right we're kind of held to the the moral standards that we create and we we put those into laws and we enforce those socially if you you know and that's all that's all true I understand that but when it comes to what is objectively true what is true regardless of our opinion well you then we can't have access there Jonathan I mean let's let's let's zoom out just a little bit and talk about truth right I like to talk about it you know you're saying objectively true but I think you're I talk about it as capital T truth and we're never going to know what capital T truth is because we're never going to get there and what our methods of doing it won't actually prove it we can we can disprove as much as we can and try and know as many false things as we can but we actually can't get to that capital T truth we're at lowercase t truth and sort doing our best what if cosmically the most moral thing to do would be you know for other species to see earth wiped out and by all metrics that's the right thing that would be capital T truth if that was the case and yet we don't have access to it we're limited to what we have and so we have to do the best we can with what we have right I mean in in those cases you can't necessarily determine with a capital T what the truth of that objective you know is we just do the best we can and some of this yeah I mean like you know I I have children and at a very early age they knew not to steal or to hurt people they don't have a philosophical degree they don't you know they they weren't indoctrinated and religion you know you can use some common sense and just to these things that it's common sense like raping somebody's not good it hurts people like and it's a pretty simple well and hurting people is is really the key there because rape socially has not always been something that we as a society looked out for and it's something that we in 2019 are still working on fixing right but the hurt of another person when you identify and you grant somebody else's humanity then you actually are biologically inclined to not do it right we have things called mirror neurons we have all of these different biological pieces that lend themselves to us being social so kind of everywhere along that path we are biased toward building those communities rather than breaking them down so are you are you saying that being social is like somehow relevant to like morality yes absolutely [Music] okay um okay so if if somebody like just a disgusting thought but if somebody was like into bestiality and it was just you a person having sex with animal is there anything moral or immoral about that action well you know it's interesting we have since gotten better we've we've moved past what our biological pieces are right the rape is actually a perfect example of that it's not just about pain it's about autonomy it's it's about express consent and you think that animal can consent exactly do you think a person can consent to such a thing we don't qualify animals as things that can give consent and so in that way we can say that is not a moral action because you're inflicting something on something that cannot consent to it just like a child under age can't consent yeah even if they say yes they can't legally consent because it's 17 years old you know you but doesn't matter that's what we've date we yes true enough we call that statutory rape though that is rape we have to draw the line somewhere and and it doesn't matter how arbitrary it may seem because in the end it's always going to be arbitrary we just do the best we can with the lines we draw but again we're coming back to the same thing we do the best we can yeah and I agree with that too you know just best we can Jonathan look at it this way look at it this way in two hundred years I hope and I have good reason to believe that the society that's going to live after we die will be so much more moral than us because they'll have had the time to work those things out we're still we still have a long way to go I hope that they're not doing those things 200 years from now you know that I hope they're working on something I had a higher level that's awesome we're getting closer to it I'm sure it's like what leads you to believe that that would be the case two generations from now I mean obviously rape existed 2,000 years ago and it still exists today so what I think will change the next years well what you do is you take a look at the available evidence right how would you think that we have evolved morally in the last decade 20 years you know I put on an old episode of Frasier and then cringe when you see all of the all of the jokes that flew then but don't fly now it's funny we're advancing by leaps and bounds go back to the 80s the 70s the 60s the way they treated women the way they treated minorities the way that they moved forward and only took what a very small minority had to say and took away the rights privileges the the consent of so many other people we're getting better aren't we Jonathan I mean and look at the way we talk we used to teach consent we used to teach consent as a man I have the ability to do whatever I want with a woman until she tells me no and it's her responsibility to tell me no now we teach consent as as a person it's not a man and a woman it's as a person I should not do anything to another individual until they consent yes it is my responsibility to get a yes it is not that person's responsibility to tell me now yeah and just because they give me consent they can take it away at any time and tell me no and then it's my responsibility to immediately stop you know we we teach consent much differently we've gotten much smarter about these things and learning from these things and and just that is such a high level Jonathan I within our great-grandparents lifetimes they were deciding whether and I white people and black people can drink at the same water fountain I think that's pretty badass I think we should collectively give ourselves a little bit of a pat on the back we got more work to do but it's better I think the available evidence points to it yeah dr. brewer will be and honestly I hole in the only way morality is objective is if like we agree that human well-being is the goal they make objective objective assessments on whether or not we've achieved that goal or reach that goal stuff like that what do you think Jonathan do you do you subscribe to do you ascribe to that or do you look at morality differently well I do agree that if if you create an objective and call it moral you can you can make them just objective assessments on reaching that goal whatever it is like a you know said like you could say human suffering is the goal and obviously that would be is something you can make assessments on how to reach that but would it be actually moral or immoral regardless of what we actually believe about it that's where I'm hung up sadly I believe that I believe that murder is wrong regardless of what anybody's opinion of murder is whether they think is right or wrong to me is irrelevant I think murder is wrong no matter what anybody says about it I think the same thing about rate you know and I think anybody any anybody who has not know a psychopath would agree that rape is no matter what no matter what time situation belief system whatever rape is wrong always always has been always will be without hesitation I agree with you and recognize the benefit and the privilege of looking at that now because that wasn't always the case in human history I don't understand you don't understand I I'm gonna turn to the Bible I'm gonna turn to the Bible right because in the Bible if a woman is raped she becomes the property of her rapist right it's a property crime not a crime against another human being one that you need to repay the owner of that property the father of the girl fifty bucks yeah and then marry her they have been forced marriage for that and that was the morality of the Bible back in the day Ben you're saying but what I said was like we all know that rape is wrong at all times we do don't think they did if they if they knew that rape was wrong at that degree why wouldn't they have just said rape is wrong and instead said hey you you've committed a crime against another person by defiling his property pay him 50 bucks and as a society we don't this Jonathan this isn't just back then in denies but you kind of answering questions or I think he says hey this is a crime which infers that it's wrong but now let me let me address Johnson let me just cut you off for a second but in other countries if a woman is raped she can be prosecuted Pratt by having sex before marriage like it's her fault she has been put to death that happens now that happens now today in countries doing this we're agreeing with you that it's wrong Jonathan I understand that are you suggesting that the man who raped the woman didn't know rape was wrong I'm saying that in a situation where you live in a country and are told that women are not humans that deserve to have their autonomy respected and that where you come from maybe then again I haven't been in the mind of those people and I really haven't taken the time to study that culture so at this point I'm gonna have to say that I need to stop because I'm now in a place of ignorance and I don't want to talk out of my ass and asking what my best you know asking what somebody else thinks is we we don't know what somebody else yeah when they do such a thing right and I understand that but just a second ago you said that people didn't think rape was wrong when you quoted the Bible reference so you're saying what somebody thought regarding the Bible but not but well they wrote it down yeah I mean you're asking me what somebody thought that did something's very different than me reading saying all if this happens here's what you do this is the Bible this is our morality that's easy to quote because they yeah and wrote it and if you just read it if somebody shoots up an office and doesn't say anything then you can you can be you know what what was the reason but if that person you know released a manifesto saying this is the reason okay [Laughter] so do you think that it's possible for somebody to rape somebody and not believe that when they're raping somebody they're doing something wrong outside of a psychopath I think people can use religion or anything to justify anything that's not as though actually that that answers it that's just doing something wrong do they do they know that if they commit rape they're doing something wrong Jonathan how about we ask that question together I'm friends with the hosts of secular sexuality and they actually have a therapist there who specializes in that subject let's take a look at that show and go to where some experts are and ask them let's look at parents who kill their children for God yeah that's true they justify implying that they're helping their kids like as they're going to heaven they do the most heinous acts possible as a parent and they think they're doing good they think yet that is there isn't it parents send their kids to conversion therapy because they think they're helping them yeah you see right some of the most heinous acts that people are able to justify because they think it's for the greater good but right and obviously you guys and myself we all know that that's wrong but okay so I can't really use like the murder like a you know murder your children because you believe that God wants to I've never heard of anybody who's like raped somebody because they believe that God wanted them to so it's not really a fair comparison oh yeah it is absolutely hold on a second we have a rich history of cults here in the United States number one the Mormon Church Joseph Smith was on record as saying that if he didn't do what he did he was going to be punished by God right you have Jim Jones you have I mean go go up the the list absolutely I mean there's Oklahoma representative says God uses rape and incest to bring babies into the world I was a quick google search no that was a quick google search like I'm just at the top a list I can go down this rabbit hole you know like people absolutely can justify that and think that they're not doing anything wrong I get huh I just got there it took me a second I didn't want to jump in in until I thought about it but I'm still gonna take it to the host of secular sexuality because I could be wrong but Jonathan I think this has been a good talk but we've been on this for a while I want to get to a few other callers um I hope this has been enlightening or fun I had really enjoyed it yeah yeah I always enjoy talking to you as well I think this might be the first time that we have talked but just I don't feel like the last question I asked was really addressed okay is it okay if I just for clarification yeah ask it and then we'll we'll end and we'll answer it off the air and then we can you know communicate online in the meantime and see where we can go from there okay okay so is it do you believe that somebody can reach somebody and not believe that they're doing something wrong and and I'll simply say outside of religion outside of a little buddy yeah say if the world was completely a particular I to the best of my knowledge yeah I am yes or no question we gave you an answer of yeah it is possible I'm open to learning differently which wasn't so but yeah to the best of my knowledge yeah okay so that person doesn't know that being raped that something wrong is happening to the to himself it's a matter of it's a matter of privilege you seen this in medieval times where somebody was gonna get married and it was the Knights the Knights or the Kings authority to be able to have sex with that woman they thought it was their privilege ooh prima nocta yes yeah so they were they were doing this and they thought it was their privilege they didn't think it was wrong they thought it was their privilege as a noble person to be able to do this thing the situation was flipped on that person and they were the ones who are being raped you don't think that they would know that something was wrong I think they would change their opinion very quickly but they don't look at it that way because they come from a place of privilege take a look at our politics today you can very quickly see a lot of examples of people unable to empathize and put themselves in the shoes of another if they did we wouldn't have the issues of you know people removing LGBTQ rights you know all over the United States we wouldn't have issues of people removing access to affordable women's health care right all over the United States it's it's because of that inability to connect we're trying though already man take care and we'll talk to you next time all right you too what'd you think of that we talked about rape a lot we did I feel kind of yeah yeah that was rough that was rough I think we could've used some other examples every dalaman so I hate Jonathan calling it I appreciate his you know going through these intellectual exercises but a few other examples might help just a little bit yeah and I understand the discomfort of thinking that we can't appeal to that capital-t truth when it comes to decision making that's rough that is really really rough and that absolutely gave me pause for a really long time so let's move on we've got another caller from Japan Wow Edgar in Japan you're talking to Eric and Jim how's it going hello yes you came in really loud but we have the best audio engineers on the planet and they fixed it like that no no keep talking the same way or else the adjustments gonna get real weird so what you want to talk about well the reason why I'm calling you here because I would like to tell you that intelligence has already been discovered by me i am i discovered intelligence today right for you in this room I met intelligent people in in in in this amazing live studio audience highlight studio audience okay let's try again when when Michael Behe fought in the double trial he never used the word intelligence against evolution she just used complexity a little invisible complexity and supposed to be will be using the word intelligence to fight evolution but he doesn't know he didn't know the definition of intelligence but and nobody knows okay hold on okay my pedantic flag popped up and I know that if I don't address this with you Edgar I am NOT gonna be able to go through the rest of this Congress you said nobody knows the definition of intelligence right all right intelligence is a word that we have created that represents a concept and when we use the word intelligence it's because we're trying to relay that concept in conversation and so the way we've defined intelligence is I think Jim is actually googling it I was going to say Google knows Webster knows I mean if you have a different definition of intelligence that's okay but to say no one knows the definition of intelligence is just weird it's word all right okay I'm glad we agree yeah I reason no I agree with you because the one who researched the definition of intelligence we have 79 right now 70 we have 70 research definitive intelligence as published in our Chevron org and the one who said that if you could search the name of Che leg and YouTube he said the topic of intelligence very difficult and nobody can nail it and there was a reason for that in other word can you hear me I can I'm just trying to follow you're saying that nobody can nail down intelligence I don't think they're talking about the definition of intelligence because in in the context that you're talking about what I've heard is you know how do we you know determine when something is intelligent versus not intelligent how can somebody know everything or be all-knowing yeah what where on the spectrum are those things is that what you're talking about what I'm trying to say to use that we have seventy definition of intelligence right now one word in English language we we have a lot of the world as has multiple meanings but intelligence has 70 and there's a reason girl I asked you a question yes and instead you repeated the thing you said before I asked the question so I have a feeling that you didn't listen and you just waited to say the same thing again would you like me to restate the question you asked me what is your question the question was I I prefaced by saying in my experience people have when they're talking about nailing down intelligence they're talking about a spectrum where they're trying to determine you know what is intelligent and what is not intelligent right and so all right what level right like if you were to look at different animals we can clearly see that the social behavior of dolphins and the social behavior of elephants has been something that we've linked to intelligence and we've we've claimed it to be that but where on the animal hierarchy do we stop saying that a thing is intelligent right there's that spectrum is that what you're talking about that spectrum and nailing it down no just a problem in our biology today because we don't have a dividing line between intelligence - not intelligence ok ok so we are on the right track ok yeah and so you said you've nailed it down and you've done that by creating a new definition of intelligence I the reason why I said I nail it down and I discovered it because through experiment we can test the word intelligence as we normally used that especially in school remember use the word intelligence in school despair' our teachers so abused that if use experiments for dad we can nail it so easily no you can't no I did no well that's I did you did so so so you're saying that a word that we created to define a thing right that has a constantly ship because that's how words work right they change over time and that becomes the actual definition as our society uses those things you're saying you use the sign method to test the definition of a word and then came up with a different definition that no one knows which is already not how words work you discovered it using science is that right all right yes yeah yes the reason why I discovered because okay so let's let's cut to the travesty come what's your definition of intelligence and why is it useful okay why do I care why should I care I will give you I will give you both the intelligence in an intelligence so that you could you could understand first intelligence the simplest definitive intelligence is a problem solution solution okay what so no okay what is the definition of intelligence hold on hold on we're gonna look at we're gonna compare that with ability to acquire and apply knowledge and skills okay so problem solution solution on one hand the ability to acquire knowledge on the other hand as possible definitions for the word intelligence I I'm gonna take the latter but is there a point to this is there now what I do not intelligence in Google Images we get some interesting things I think we might get sued for that I can't nope can I continue can I continue oh well first tell me why yeah I don't know how this has anything to do with atheism no wait there is because the reason why you are an atheist or people are definitely being God because you don't know intelligence you didn't know if a particle or a cell or life is intelligent design you'll hold up well hold on you said this is why atheists are atheists Jim that's a pretty big claim is that why you're an a no so why I'm an atheist is very different than why you are or probably this people in this room if we would ask them that a pretty big claim to making my 40 audience is that what convinced you to be an atheist that no well you might need to hit the drawing board again enter know what I said if you are going to use science is that the reason why you reject that life or in universe our design intelligently because shouldn't know about topical intelligence hold on thought we didn't use I think he just waited for us to talk to keep going Edgar number one the definitions weird and not really very useful number two you made a statement about all a theists that is not true yes this is anecdotal but I can use anecdotal evidence when you're talking about all or nothing right you said all atheists I just gave you about two dozen who disagree so you definitely can't use the all-or-nothing but at this point I really don't think that the conversation is helpful because I don't know how it can affect us if you're bringing it up as a rebuttal that nobody brought up to you right you're saying that atheists are atheists because they don't know the difference between what is intelligent and what is not intelligent we just took a quick poll that's not the case here we're atheists so we're in the subset that you labeled all fall under that right yeah it's simple it's there isn't why many people all people who reject God as an intelligent designer because you didn't know that the word intelligence if that's not why people are atheists and I just we just try that no Edgar you're talking to one Edgar why don't you ask me or do you not believe me and you're just gonna put the thought in my head that I have to believe this because you said so is that how this is gonna go ask me hey Eric why are you an atheist are you an atheist why are you an atheist not for that reason hey we're solved I'm sorry I'm raising my voice Edgar but it is incredibly demeaning and rude to put words in other people's mouths like that this entire time I'm listening to you and asking clarifying questions because I'm trying to be as generous as I can to what you're saying and I'm trying to operate with what you're saying but why are you not giving me the same the same measure of respect no I'm respecting I respecting all the people okay so ask me Derek why are you are you an atheist for this reason because you just made a claim about me right ask me well that's a little mean isn't it okay Edgar III yeah I reject it and because you're saying all atheists are rejecting the claim come back when you have revised it and we'll see if it works all right take care all right right a little different this time isn't it you know Jamie right meat chewing on my chair and angry you know I'm happy I'm happy you're here good we're doing this all right we let's see Nick in Wisconsin you talk an arrogant Jim how's it going how you doing doing all right how about you Jim I'm doing wonderful love Google Images if I could if only we could well no Google Image Search non intelligence and you'll see what Jim saw we can't show you because uh reasons I put no intelligence not knowing audiences all different go ahead what Ella gist was much better by the way okay well for once you know I've talked to you before I'm not talking about being right now I'm talking about an actual topic and it's a sensitive one and I want to preface a couple things first of all were three guys talking about you know about to talk about abortion okay and just the way it is but I want why why would you do that why the reason I want to do that is because I want to give a secular argument for being pro-life or predominantly pro-life anyway and so Jim you know that that that sterling career at American Atheists what it was about so well we're about to embroil in something that does yeah okay that's good no no yeah yeah uh you know caught because I was watching on YouTube and I saw Matt and Tracy you know talking about the exact same thing then they gave an argument that I had never thought of before okay I was thinking about it and but the thing is I have dinner plans today was an old friend haven't seen it here so well I you know you know it show I'm afraid I may disappoint you I feel like talking to them they've put a ton of thought into it but we'll do our best I'll do my best I know I may rely on Jim more because Jim is amazing when it comes to this subject so you might be the the resource here but Nick what is your let's let's quit beating around the bush what is your argument okay against abortion in a secular your secular argument against abortion okay I'm completely old minded okay and but what I'm saying is first of all the argument that they gave an eighth experience experience is that still in the vigil bodily autonomy and I had never thought of that before okay something is living air body using your body that you didn't want to be there okay now what I'm thinking is that when doctors consider you brain-dead you're legally dead okay so well that thing is when your brain alive you're legally alive and what I'm thinking is first of all what holds a higher state individual bodily autonomy right to that or right to just be alive and let me make it clear to that before your brain lives I mean like in the first trimester absolutely your choice but then after that there are other things involved and I mean because now you have something that's actually conscious and can feel pain yeah or me or Nick I'm sorry Nick sorry yeah Jim's gonna happen were you religious at one time were you religious at one time I was at one time yes okay and you know that's that's where I started but you don't know I I really tried to come up with a secular argument for it because I don't you can't make laws based on the Bible so but it sounds like you you just said something concerning like you grew up religious you had this pre conceived at and now you're trying to you're coming with the answer and you're trying to come up with secular solutions to justify your answer you're going about this backwards instead of just saying I want to know the truth I want to learn about this issue no matter where it takes me you're trying to fight things to justify your already position so there's the first problem I have the second problem is and this is do you and I'll ask you this honestly do you think that religion should dictate our medical choices or doctors and professionals okay absolutely not not at all okay well because the Medical Association if you look at the medical list of people that are support abortion and access to it is medical professions and experts in their field religion is imposing it and trying to pass the legislation all across the country which is harming women that right there should be what else do you need what else do I need meaning if you if you don't want the church to dictate legislation that's exactly what they're doing and you're ignoring the medical profession which you said shouldn't happen for any medical decisions what this whole thing is that's okay your I think they're kind of like you know putting me into a religious box right now because I used to be a you know hardcore theist I'm not anymore and but I still good and and and that's but but if you're not then you say that then why are you not supporting the medical professionals and experts in this field and you're still supporting the religious organizations in this argument I'm supporting the argument because you know it's logically consistent I think if you're brain-dead you're legally dead if you're brain alive you're a lot you're legally alive you know where this actually takes me nick is a really interesting story of how we came up with the rules and the laws about what constitutes life right because the American Supreme Court needed to listen to arguments about what constitutes life and where to draw lines legally when it comes to abortion and medical technology the the ability for us to you know have children earlier and earlier in pregnancy right have preemies and be able to save them is kind of butting up against those definitions that is an interesting topic but I would say that you know the the line that we have legally was came up what was come up by our Supreme Court trying to use the best evidence that they had available I would look into it the the the brain alive brain-dead thing it is is completely separate from whether or not it affects a woman's autonomy and I think that we need to look at all of these you know yes I understand that but together we need to look at them too what is the importance of brain activity right can we take that and put that out to animals right would we feel the same way about artificial life right um that's a definition that you know you can work out what you can work with and see if that works but I I don't think I have the time on the show to kind of flesh that out and the one way around vacation I'll have you look at is what most medical definitions go by or what they're looking at and what most laws are passed on is viability of the fetus outside of the woman by itself not through technology not through but can't is it vice the fetus viable without the woman and when you see these timeframes that that's what they're going by not not by a heartbeat that they may be able to determine not by a brainwave it is viability and I think that you're and honestly I I've got to say Nick I feel real uncomfortable about being three dudes talking about abortion because if yeah no no no it you have a question and the thing is that I think that if we had Jen or Tracy in here talking about it I think the very real issue that you and I and Jim aren't readily bringing up is oh you're talking about me too right we're talking about actual people with actual autonomy and so I can I ask you a few other questions in all sincerity I mean is is this a position you have that are you open to learning about this issue or is this like you're really trying to research why pro-life is right or are you willing to learn about this issue no I'm absolutely willing to learn about because what what one of the things is one of the things I would recommend for you is if not as a debate because they would not be interested in this but contact Planned Parenthood go to one of their educational things talk to them not is the debate of why you're right but listen to the women listen to them tell their stories listen to the people that are affected by this issue and learn I learned I've been surrounded by Planned Parenthood the women a planned parent I'd change my views I grew up religious on a lot of topics and don't go there to debate don't go there to tell them why they're wrong that would it go poorly for you but if you honestly go there to listen to their stories III think as an intelligent rational person you know listen to women that's the best thing I can tell you absolutely but I know in no buts no yes to women but let's say let's let's say and don't say but say and you know that way you're not been validating the first statement sorry that that was I miss I was spoke I'm sorry no that's okay that's okay yes well let's say you think yes I have opinions on this subject okay I'm gonna ask you guys three questions and just yes or no don't go there okay um hold on I'm trying to keep an eye on the the timing for the show let me see we're at 14 minutes really quick yeah okay let's let's let's try and do the the nutshell version so we can get to other college too okay I think it's kind of a girl oh yeah either of you ever served in Iraq no do you have an opinion on the Iraq war yeah I mean it's not a very nice form do you both what the hell why why the hell do you have an opinion if you haven't if it hasn't affected you well let me ask my opinion my opinion on Iraq and my ability to pass legislation and dictate happens there not being well informed is very very different yeah and and you know a lot of things but I would not legislate them I am NOT an expert I would consult the experts to make those decisions yeah I'm I have no freaking clue man and because I have no freaking clue I'm probably going to say like I did in this you know in my response to you I'm not really well-informed I mean I've got some ideas but those ideas really aren't even specific to Iraq it's about war in general so even then you know you know what fair enough and you know I could be wrong and I always say that so he and I made a hand motion that looked very empathetic and it goes blocks I know I look really smug hold on is I gonna go ahead Nick I'm having issues yeah no no sorry no no I said you know fair enough and you know I I understand what you're saying and that's just something I always thought of when you know when I just give an opinion about you know abortion I know it's a you know hot topic I know that and I only really talked about abundant close friends and apparently strangers on the radio and they're amazing fans yeah but but no I understand that but you know it's like you know when people tell me that you know I have no right to this because I've never experienced it then I said so why do you have an opinion on this because you've never experienced it well you see what I'm saying I do and I think that shutting down a conversation and not having it means that you don't know if you have the right answer yeah and and and so I well while I would say that I'd also say though that you need to recognize your own bias to be able to be objective and recognizing that you as a man don't have the same life experience that would inform some of these decisions that are incredibly important would definitely bias your results and so absolutely right and that adjusting to and correcting for that is is really important I think Jim's I got one more thing is was was perfect spot on I've only listened to my dad twice in my life and this is some advice he gave me that I'll remember forever yeah and and one of the things when I was arguing with him about a subject kind of like this he says why in the hell are you talking to me you're not asking my opinion you're telling me yours and trying to convince me while you're right and if you're asking me about a subject why don't you talk to the experts if you want an expert opinion talk to the experts like I love people calling him but Eric and I talking about abortion is not do all the answer of where to go let go if you want to have honest conversations and you want to learn on any subject go to the experts Cheers yes I had to have an opinion but my opinion is not near as much as going to the experts and in this case when it comes to abortion Planned Parenthood is the experts in this topic if you want to go on any subject and one of the experts yeah and if you want to hear a non expert opinions that I I hold very highly that there's this small show called the atheist experience and they're clips you can find on YouTube Jenna and Tracy actually going into some really great detail about it that's where you know like where I got this idea I was okay yeah but hopefully that helped a bit i mean i i'd and it's good talk about these things in rationale because you always don't have access to the experts to walk through these so we we want people to call them we want to talk to you but at the same time when we're making some of these arguments we really need to look you know toward towards the experts on them guys i really didn't want to put you on the spot and that's what we're here for you know i don't want to talk about bortion you know you know dinner so yeah breakfast oh god yes this has been one hell of an episode what's the next one yeah what happened this is this is what keeps me up at night that i go maybe other that we might hit for the next caller could we just find that and make sure we hit the trifecta before I go actually I don't think it was Nick I think it was the person before who called in about veganism yeah Jim's a vegan I know I'm a vegetarian Mike I'm sorry not claiming that I'm a vegan I am a vegetarian Nick I'm sorry not to you but just a like real right yeah Nick you take care have a good one man and I appreciate you calling in Thank You Nick gonna and I hope I hope you take up my suggestion all right I was good that was good I think I think we might have navigated it you have a navigator dit I said that I'll check the comments on YouTube after this episode we'll see how we did hey alright let's go with Patrick in Missouri Patrick you're live with Eric and Jim hi hi um kind of way of what this next subject yeah not a weird okay well I'm glad I'm so glad that you're here on the show I've been watching this show now for about three months I've been a closeted atheist for very many years I owned a business in a town that is very religious it's a seed of a diocese and I own a bard restaurant my wife and I do and you send an email to us yeah you did I did so so I was absolutely packed but I think I was able to read like the first paragraph or so I'm actually glad I called because I understand a long time I don't mean to interrupt I'll be honest with you I'm using not my real name and I'm not gonna I don't want to get into a lot of details about that's good I you don't even have to use your real state you're good but go ahead no well if you read parts of the email here's my issue I it's I came to be an atheist over a long long road it's not something that happens overnight of course I've owned this business for 20 years now and I have my wife and I we have 20 employees 11 of which are full-time and we provide them with health care benefits and things of that nature I have recently come to a moral dilemma and Jim I thank you probably for your long long association with the Atheist community in this country you might have known people that are in my same situation I really want to get involved with the local a theist humanist community I know those things are not mutually the same but but I feel like that if I do that how much business are we going to lose 10% 20% and that money is we use that to help other people and I'm that's my quandary and I this is something that's been bothering me for I don't know a couple of months now and I for the longest time I just said there well you know yeah my close friends know my feelings my close friends that I know that they won't use that against me but I'm just afraid oh we can't go there because the guy that owns that place he's an atheist so the larger question is depends and what your comfort level is and what you want to do and getting involved in a community does not mean you have to be on TV talking about atheism there are things you can do to support the there were financially there are things you can do behind the scenes to support the community and the other the so I would say you know yes you can get involved at some level it probably shouldn't be that big of a deal if you're going on TV protesting the Ark Encounter and doing a bit a business and I'm Bob from Bob's bar and grill and I'm an atheist and you know religion sucks that's probably going to hurt your business but just being part of the communities not a big deal the other thing is like you know when people in your business you don't say hey I'm an atheist and talk about atheism you do your job but at the same time I never we tell people we don't deny it and we make sure when they experience an atheist it's the most pleasurable best experience they've ever had I go to Mississippi Indiana Alabama you know some of the most conservative religious organizations wearing atheist t-shirt introducing myself with American atheist and I rarely get negative pushback or feedback and I make sure it's a pleasurable experience for them absolutely even when I'm getting restaurant gas anywhere like I want them to understand and and if you can't be an out atheist in your community which it sounds like that would be a pretty rough decision for you like he said the organizations that you can join can be very cognizant of it right here at the ACA there are times we take pictures of people being you know active and all of that but we always ask hey are you out to your friends and family are you okay with a picture being taken of you because we don't want to be the reason somebody got outed and there are people who say oh actually I don't want to be in the picture and they kind of pop out we take the picture and then they go back to it right there are things like that that you can absolutely do and be involved it's it's just communication it's a communication make sure you're talking to the event organizers and saying I want to be involved I just can't be out there for it even just a regular picture it's also you don't have to be out in the spotlight but you don't have to hide yes and I think that's a big difference where a lot of people get confused of do you have to hide versus be you know just just be yourself and do your thing if you want to go to the potluck go to the potluck if you want to hear a speaker talk go here the speaker talk there's no reason you can't be associated with them if they're doing a very visible protests or event then you have to make a decision but also if our communities get involved in things like sex education LGBTQ equal rights issues you shouldn't be embarrassed to be supporting them because there's probably clergy supporting those issues too so you don't have to stand where you are with those did I answer your question yeah it doesn't that helps I mean hey last year last year we hosted the first Pride nights in our community fantastic nice yeah yeah and we did it again this year and the I haven't seen any drop although I know that there are some people that come into the establishment that are very very narrow minded when it comes to people in their sexuality but I'm just I'm at this point I think I could I feel like I want to help more I do donate to the to the local community we help them out we give like gift cards when they have fundraisers and things of that nature so we help in that way but they're just really I'm at a medical andriy I'm at a place where I'm feeling like I really want to get further involved and help more because I think that there is a lot of good being done in the atheist and the humanist community around this area and I think you could use more support I feel like our answers may not have been applicable now with a little more information Patrick at that point when you want to get more involved in an involvement that you know would negatively impact your business that's a decision that you need to make together with your partner and your family and don't and it's not necessarily going to be a fun conversation and it may not come out with the answer that you want and it may but it's best of luck man I wish I wish that there was a better response to give what do you think Jimmy I mean I was fired for being an atheist so I was accused of being I was accused of being for gay rights and being an atheist and for abortion and I answered yes and they're like you can't say that I'm like you can't ask me that you know so I when I say I understand the consequences I understand the consequences Wow but I was in a position financially and willing to I couldn't hide anymore but I was the guy going on TV so I took it a whole nother level so you you you have to understand the concept but I like what you're doing of I'm gonna host a pride night I that doesn't yes I'm gonna support women you can hope you can have your event at my place we are inclusive we are welcoming that is a great way to get involved people need venues and there's all sorts of social issues that humanists an atheist support that they need where you could you have an establishment people can come to and that's a great way and then when you have the guy come in that's the bigot to be like hey you know next Tuesday's Pride night you might want to come on on Wednesday yeah like hey you know we are a business we support all people you you when you're talking to those people you don't have to take a personal stance like if the church wanted to come in and have 20 people would you feed them and have let them have their event there well that would depend and I because if it was if it was a what I want to say a very fundamentalist sect that I felt like was very it could do hateful towards certain people I think I would turn it away I just I that's the I think that's where I draw the line yeah well it's different if they're gonna have like an anti-gay rally at your place that's very different than you know like hey we are just here to write to you know for beverage or yeah like or what that is and not get engagement so supporting the community is a way you can get mall without calling yourself out as much or drawing you know negative attention but like to Eric's point there are consequences to our actions and you have to be willing to accept those of how far you want to go and only you and your family can answer that well you know the main reason I called is I just wanted to throw this all for against a board besides just talking to my wife and she you know she said call them up see what they have to say about it and we've talked about this for quite a while and that's it Oh God we're going to be coming to Austin here in a few weeks yeah I'm so looking forward to coming by the center and meeting you guys I'm a big fans of what you're doing and and not only it your your community but all of the communities out there that are trying to educate and let people know that you know you don't have to be a born-again or a Bible or a cradle Catholic or whatever to be a good person that's right that's right Patrick's coming I go now and take care brother I look forward to meeting you man let's go for a drink yeah we will I'll be in touch all right guys take care all right I think it's time to thank those patrons we have two more callers on the line we're gonna get to them both so Gregory and Jenny please stay on the line but it's time for me to thank our top five patrons if you want to become a patron you can go to patreon.com/scishow our Neil Neil you rock Nando Gonzales Austin plush Nick Lynette cross and Joe roll Neil Nando Austin Lynette and Joe roll thank you you are our top five patrons and for everyone else every little bit I mean it's it's huge and really even you know at the small donations you know a lot of people go oh well it may be it's not really worth it a dollar in episode that's four dollars a month but in the aggregate and if you have to if you have to go and you know your financial situation changes and okay you can't donate forward to four dollars a month you're not $1,000 an episode donor we don't have any of those but you know it's we're able to float better on the support of you so if you can if you like what we're doing if you want to in empower us to do more stuff it's because of those donations that we're gonna be able to road trip out to the American atheist conventions because of those donations that we're able to set up this atheist Day event on March 23rd please consider becoming a patron patreon.com slash talk heathen to me and your orders greatly appreciate to do the great work and continue the great work that the ACA continues to do in talk Ethan I mean you guys are amazing and small donations do matter and not beholden to any one big donor to allow the content to do what you want to so I would even say the small donations by everybody is super important good call good call yeah all right let's move on to Jenny in Ohio Jenny hi hey Jenny Danny yes is he mean I was trying to come in I want to say thank you Eric for last week talking to him from a place of empathy when we were talking about like the shame you sent out after you know you became an atheist I totally related and it was all based on fear which is why I'm calling because I am petrified my father teaching my son religion the way he taught me and the best example I can give is when I was eight he explained to me what eternity was like he said that imagine a Granite Mountain to say 10,000 feet tall once every 10,000 years an eagle will swoop down and brush against the mountain by the time that person rode it away that's a millisecond of eternity to me that I literally ran and threw up yeah that is I think that is the correct response kind of that's just slightly the intensity of my father if you take Sons of Anarchy taking Christianity and martial arts that's my dad alright we talking about boundaries it sounds like yeah oh my naughty I don't even know how to approach him on this topic because I am super closeted they don't hate my husband if I come out which i think is hysterical because I've been questioning them my whole life I'm Annie and he's a pastor my father he's a pastor so conversation wait your house bender you're your father my dad oh my I don't know my husband's an atheist and the fear the shame that I understood what he was scared to tell me he was an atheist because I guess I don't remember saying this but I believe I did that if he ever told me he was an atheist I would divorce them now the hide-and-seek champion of the world have never helped me okay I was always told to give the wheel to Jesus and every time I did he drilled me into nothing but [ __ ] okay he never because he's not there but I never had any of my prayers answered my husband got me out of all of those horrible situations and I was willing to walk away from that because I was petrified of that millisecond of eternity in hell yep yep okay boy that is that is a lot so how to approach the subject with your father number one is this has this come to a place where you feel like you need to obviously you're calling in so I would assume that's a yes well he wants to buy my son his certain Bible and whatnot which is fine I had told them already I want my son to study and figure out exactly what he wants I want him to find evidence for whatever he wants to follow he hears me and my husband talk and he's obsessed with science I highly doubt he is going to be Christian but even if he does follow that path the story of us carry their touches hi they are to remember a time where I don't remember how to wear I didn't know about hell I do not remember a time where I didn't know about hell and how hot it was you know I think I think Jim nailed this from the beginning setting boundaries is going to be a very very important I think you have two things two separate things to address the first is you are the parent and setting boundaries and say dad you know when you talk to me about how it scared me it petrified me I vomit it I it is still shaking me to this day when it comes to religious instruction for my son here's here here's what I want and then you set out that boundaries of you know we are the parents we are going to take care of his instruction yeah and and you can set those clear boundaries it's a very separate conversation whether of you're an atheist or not has nothing to do with it my fear is I really worry that he's gonna go down that III have to I still leave the family in prayer and everything else and it is the most annoying thing in the world to visit your pastor fundamentalist father pastor's house and pretend to agree with all of the horrible just disgusting things then Jenni definitely I've seen this talking to people a lot of times and I'm sure Jim you have to when you don't set those boundaries it leads to resentment which leads to anger which leads to burn bridges anger leads to a dark side oh my goodness and you make this more complicated yeah well you know I was I was I was talking to somebody who who said you know that they were able to shut down that religious thing at work without even saying that they were an atheist and so what they did was they said you know that they it was just something everybody talked about in the office was going to church and about their Christianity and the boss walked up to him and said hey well you know are you going to our church event at which point he turned to the pastor Natha past return to the his boss and said would you ask me about how I have sex because this is a personal matter and the way that I treat religion is personal I don't talk about it with people and I feel it's very inappropriate to talk about it with me this is something that I'm handling that I've got and I'd appreciate it if you left that at that boundary alone there are ways to firmly say I'm not going to go there I think a lot of it which by the way before we go any further I am very happy with my life now becoming an atheist was the best 30 year old birthday present I gave myself the day before I turned 30 I just you know I went on a manic episode and I just researched like crazy and I came up to that conclusion so I am very happy with my life now that doesn't mean I'm not going to seek charity for all this or anything but I just don't want anybody to think that I'm not living in there anymore except when it comes to this scenario let me give you breakfast what I'm gonna say is you know your family better than at me we only know what you told so you have to make this counseling and there's a couple ways to handle this and and you know which is best you could sit down and say dad I'm an atheist and just floor him and lay it all out and get it out of the way you know and depending on knowing your parents do they love you more than they do their religion like no and then so then the second then the second way is it doesn't have to be about atheism when they say horrible things about people like their their religions anti-lgbt stand up for the issue when they go against abortion stand up for the issue or talk about how this makes you feel uncomfortable and also you can preface it with speaking in third person or party about issues like you know you know like so when you see something about hey dad did you see this thing happen in the paper about this humanist group or the separation of religion government what do you think about and talk about it and if he's like oh well you know they they fed the home whatever they did and it's positive then you can talk about it if he rips it apart then avoid it you're not on the hook so talk about articles about these issues that you care about or humanism or atheists and more about non-religious like hey did you see this come back yeah but did you know did you see this couple or this patter this patter this pastor like you know or this parent shunned his son because he came out as an atheist you know what do you what do you think about families doing that because they're gay or what if an atheist like whoa and see what they say and if he says well the real is come forward or I would never do that family comes first you don't have to admit anything you're just talking about this article that you did and you get and if you start doing that over weeks months years by the time I came out and you come out and say I'm an atheist or gonna be what oh well yeah like but you you already know the answer you if you start talking about these things not as you personally you can get a good feel of where they're gonna go and you what you may be right it could be horrible or you may be wrong and it could be no big deal it's usually somewhere in between but but we do get the whole spectrum I mean here the ACA I meet people every day some of whom have been disowned by their entire families some of whom were surprised to find I see that's the thing my mom would honestly probably have a heart attack and I cannot die with my mom thinking I'm gonna burn in hell because she's heard the same story and Jenny you have your answer it's it's it's not comfortable and it's not nice but being true to yourself you need to make that decision and whatever that decision is we're not going to be mad at you we're not gonna blame you or anything like that we understand that in your life you need to make decisions that are gonna lead to your own happiness right and if you're going to you know prioritize your family not knowing to be able to salvage that relationship no one hears upset with you it's going to be okay you know if you decide then get online call us up get on Facebook get on discord we have people did let's let's pop you know what I call it popping the cork well when I when I first started I was a call screener for the Atheist experience and when I would screen calls there would be people who would for the very first time talk to an atheist and they've been an atheist for years and they've never had the chance to interact and they pop the cork and it's just it's it's a life you know most guys when they know that I was a theist like I swear to God that night I got like at least 20 different videos your guys were in there and so every week I'm like okay listen it's been a year I promise yeah but watching everything but but get in touch with us and you know we can help with some of that frustration talking about it are you part of any local community there in Ohio because they have a strong I don't know I'm near Cincinnati so I'm very familiar with a while oh no I haven't I'm honestly that's the thing I'm scared to get in something around here my dad knows too many people it's stupid if only we knew people who could find something for you to do to get involved in Ohio Jim do you know anybody I may know so if you would like to leave your contact information I'm happy to talk offline it's right at the bottom of the screen mail at takis and calm and but Jenny I think we're kind of started to run a field and we needed to kind of rein it back in I've got one more caller thank you all right take care of luck all right last call already I'm ready Gregory in Kansas oh wait hold on there we go Gregory in Kansas you've waited so long doing all right about yourself you're talking to Eric in jail yep aw shucks hey I work with a lot of Muslims and Christians and works you know and we have a lot of debates about it and they're so arrogant would add some questions they can't answer you know I was at Affleck for 42 years so then I was I was at boarding a Christian for one year during that time oh yeah a church hello Gregory I think we lost him they got to him they found him so I think it's time to to get to that part of the show Jim I'm I'm so happy that you're here you're always fun to hang out with and when it came to holy crap some of those issues like abortion I'm glad you were you know able to to pick up and share your experience because I know you work with Planned Parenthood so much yeah I don't mind talking about any of these subjects and you know I mean in women's issue I'd rather have them here but since they're not at least you know I've talked to them and just being able to talk to the folks and hear their concerns you know means a lot the only thing that made me nervous to be honest is is when I got the memo well like when we do this show what to be prayer for what we talked about is that I'm not so much supposed to wear pants while we're recording this issue this episode I heard that's the thing that you know we don't want to see you that we're not you know people don't wear pants when recording this I'm okay with it but it was I thought it was a little odd hey not gonna lie we will we're gonna get you some nicer underwear right maybe we could do a donation thing yeah but I think it's at that time so do you remember how we did it last time we start by throwing some some some love rings up there we go no he's right and everybody should have love rings but they should be purple not green heretic I'm judging so so Jim um especially because you're here especially I'm proud to say at this part of the show we'd look at the camera and we tell people if you are an atheist this is your community this is where you belong all right if you had to say something to the the atheists out there who are feeling distant disaffected or don't feel like they have community or haven't been able to reach out or just watching lurking but like Jenni kind of sitting quietly you're not alone we're everywhere I mean you are not alone reach out if you don't know who to reach out to reach out to American atheist talkie and they to see a reach out to me I can put you in touch with your community odds are there's a vibrant community into your backyard I thought I was alone in Kentucky and that there's thousands and taki Kentucky there was thousands who knew like all's it took was one person to be visible to let people know they weren't alone and people flooded I mean it's you're not alone and then you not have to take this journey alone and then for those people who do believe here's the part where we look at the screen and we say we don't hate you we just think you're wrong you ready for those who do believe we don't hate you we just think you're wrong see you next week [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] you

Channel: Talk Heathen

Views: 17,191

Rating: 4.9453716 out of 5

Keywords: atheist, atheism, atheist vs christian, atheist debate, religion debate, atheism debate, belief, faith, reason, rational, proof, evidence, logic, fallacy, religion, religious, science, secular, Skepticism, skeptic, questioning god, doubt, is god real, agnostic, agnosticism, evidence for god, Christianity, Islam, morality, evidence for jesus, Jesus, Jesus Christ, debate, Bible, Bible contradictions

Id: mFQkjzbugSo

Length: 103min 39sec (6219 seconds)

Published: Sun Mar 10 2019