Suspicious! Over 30 different Qur’ans formed in the 8th century? - Qira'at Conundrum - Episode 9

hello everyone this is al-fadi and thank you so much for joining us again in this uh video series about the pirate of the quran and you know what jay have called it the karat conundrum what i like to call it maybe the qiraj or controversy whatever you want to call it we are dissecting all of the issues and the problems and last week or i should say last video we talked about the seventh century issues with the quran today we are going to focus on the 8th century jay welcome of course uh why are those two centuries important the seventh century and eighth century because this is where it all begins according to islam i don't believe it does i believe we're going to find out in time that none of this is true but because of the fact that once you start to redact it back from the 9th and 10th century you're going to make an awful lot of errors you're going to make an awful lot of historical mistakes and that's what we're finding already with the 7th century in the last episode the fact that they made all these claims and they can't even come up with one reference or one after uh it's all attributed they've made all these claims about all these qurans uba read god's quran even masseuse quran even musa's quran said it's quran the five that were then finally from ibrahimovic were sent to mecca medina basra gufa and damascus not any of these qurans existed that all not one that we can find we can't find one complete quran at all from any of these individuals from the 7th century so we're now we're going to move to the 8th century because now we get into this whole topic of the kid conundrum so basically you're doing a historical criticism this is what you have to do and this is why i'm saying muslims you should have done this why is it we're doing it why is it we have to do it why is it you have to uh you've had all these years to do so you've had well we're talking about 1300 years to do so and you have yet to do it and that that's why it's a shame that we even have to go into this and have to remind them but now we want to move into the 8th century and so what i'd like to do is go back to the slides again and let's start going on to the eighth century because now we get into the kidnap and there you see we start with muhammad who dies in 632. we now know we've already gone through this so i'm not doing anything you haven't already seen and then you get to uthman who then introduces the one quran so from 632 of the seven qurans it comes back to one quran in 652 20 years later but hold on where are these seven achus where are these seven gerats or the seven akrus that received the muhammad received but we're told that five of them were actually created from one approve one kirat in that sent to five cities but aren't there more dialects shabbat ali keeps on talking about the ones that were actually destroyed the ones that were burned by our good friend uthman were dialects dialect you destroyed dialects and he was trying to say these are recitations no these aren't recitations you don't burn recitation you know as we've said many times you don't burn people's tongues you don't burn their voices you don't do them the orality you burn text you dare burn scripts you burn manuscripts you'd burn uh vellums or you burn parchments and possibly papyrus but not someone's voice so i'd like to know where those ones that he that he that they burned well we don't have them because they're burned but we do know that they're the quraishi what did exist now suddenly these kidnaps start to appear and when do they appear well let's look at the first one there's the first one right up there what's his name uh ibn ahmed okay and what is his date uh 7 36 that's at least the day when he died that's the day he died that is not in the seventh century so when we introduce the the first of the qirah the first derivation the first of the dots and the vowels and it's this guy right here and i'll just pull him off the top of the table that we have in front of us oops that falls off you can hold him up but there he is yep that's it so that's 736 that's the earliest that is introduced in the well beginning of the 8th century but well into the 8th century 736 and it's certainly 100 years after muhammad so he did not live at the time muhammad right oh absolutely he did not even do his work in the same century as muhammad right if he lived at the days of time muhammad he would have been over 140 years ago you could see that so obviously this has nothing to do with the earliest seven right because those servants that were given to jibril by jubilee to muhammad were there before he died in 632 this is a hundred years later and he's the earliest he's the earliest that's why i'm on the timeline who comes second well you have ibn kathir who comes second and he's in mecca his date is 7 38. who comes third well awesome and he is from kufa so his date is 7 45 who comes forth from basra 770. now we're getting towards the end of the 8th century then comes hamza 772 again towards the end of the eighth century then you have nafi i'm from medina 785 almost getting to the end of the of the eighth century and then finally we move into the ninth century and we have al-qasai so those are the original seven i put them up there so you can see them in the order that of their dates that he died but there's the seven those are the seven right right and who chose those seven uh head okay and when so let's look at it what is his date nine thirty six uh can you see look at that link between him and muhammad it's really amazing by the way uh jay if you think about it uh and and i want our muslim friends to to hear me out here who decided which russom okay is the appropriate trustum and which dialect is the appropriate dialect uthman who by the way we don't have any single tradition that says the prophet authorized them right with anything like that and then we move on to the qira'at 300 years later whole authorized ebin mujahid to choose which seven are the inspired ones that are preserved in heaven interestingly even mujahid would also agree with you these are not inspired or in heaven at least you have to give him credit he would not say that these are inspired he was he realized that there was a problem and you can see how huge a problem is once we get to that i kind of i don't want to i don't want to destroy our fire for that because that gets even more uh problematic but what we do know is that he is the one that has given that authority to choose those seven but those aren't the only authoritative one there is uh some more and here's the first one his name is abu jahar and he is from medina uh then on a another one uh yakub from basala look at his dates 8 21 so we're well into the 9th century and finally from the mid 9th century so now from 736 all the way up to 844 you have the official ten that's the ten three set uh green seven three that's right uh red and and i hope people are noticing five from kufa two from basra one from damascus and then we only have one mecca and one medina and the ones well actually there's three yeah you have abu jafar from medina as well and one from mecca so those are the ones we should have those three should be the only ones of the ten seven of them have already been refuted destroyed and burned by our good friend guthman so why in the world do they suddenly appear a century later that's right who chose them well let's look and see the guy who chose him this guy chose him al-jazari 29. i can't even get him on the map i have to put an arrow same where he is he can't even get on the timeline he's so far to the right so here's what it means first of all uthman we were told that he finally controlled the readings and the text yet by the time of jahed we find that that's not the case we still have more karate and he has to deal with the problem we thought that ibra mujahid fixed a problem a couple of hundred years later we have al-jazari dealing with other problems give us another three on top of that now this is the ten and these are the ten that yasir khadi talks about these are the ten that shabbat ali talks about these are the ten that they keep on claiming are the creme de la creme the the best of the best i've got that up there on the left yasakari has made this very clear that these are the ten that we now know are from the time of muhammad and they keep on saying these are the divine ten these are the ones we go to you can see there's a problem however because what name is missing or what two names are missing there are two names uh let me just hold them up here if you could get the one underneath every number is trying to hide uh perhaps there well they've been amazed should have been the one but these are the two that we use today these are the two that everybody uses today this is what used by 90 of the muslim world this is used all across north africa their names are not on this list are they not at all so when did these guys come to appear well i'm going to show you what happened then to begin with ibn mujahid had enormous number of qurans to choose from and so he was given the responsibility to choose two narrators or two transmitters or two raois from each one of these readers so each reader was he could choose too so what did he choose for nafe well he chose oh i forgot about abdelmonic why did i put him in there because you notice all this comes after abdul malik i'm telling you jay uh the picture is starting to become more and more suspicious i'm sure do that i have an agenda here but i'm going to keep coming back i just want to flip in there so let's go so we have many more so you have two from nafi you have kaloon and you have water kaloon is from medina is washed from medina no he's not he's actually from egypt why we'll get into that then we have ibn kathir he has look at his date 864 and then you have kunbul 904. now we're into the 10th century 10th century that's 250 years after muhammad has al-duri and he has al-susi again these are 9th century amir has hisham and asam has shubha and there is huffs there comes huffs 796. hamza has khalaf and also khalid and then you have al-qasa he has a light and al-dudhi again remember al-duri is already up there with abu ahmad he is also the same guy with al kasai he actually disagrees with himself and joins another reader and actually there you go two different questions the same guy you read two different ways it's amazing isn't it that's why he died on the same year because he's the same individual see why aren't muslims talking about this how can you disagree with yourself because you joined another school and then you have a completely different quran again you can't do that unless of course you are you are trying to get popularity for yourself either this or maybe he wasn't looking at it the way our muslim friends are looking at it he thought it was just fun to learn read it this way and learn to read it that way this or that you say potato i say potato you say tomato i say tomato it's much worse than that we're not going to get into that they'll be coming in another episode i think it's tomato i say it's tomato now we can we can get to the other three the ones in the red and yeah each are given two as well by al-jazadi in 1429 the 15th century so these are not appointed until the 15th century almost 800 years after muhammad you have isa ibn wardan and you also have ibn jumaaz for ab jafar then you have ruai and you have rao for jakub and then you have isak and idris look at his dates 905 that is the 10th century so so late but rick but chosen even later than that 1429. so those are the 30 now i i want you to visually see that folks look at visually and memorize that because that's where they all come on a timeline and here's what jay is saying you have 10 readings two transmitters for each that's where we get the 30. that's where you get the three now i want to go and i want to show you there go back to that there's huffs and wash those i've circled in black because they are the ones that are the most important they are not part of the readers they are part of the transmitters they are nothing more than narrators right it's so it's almost like you write a book and next generation somebody transmits your book you should get the credit not that transmitter and what's even more devastating both wash and huffs are not from mecca even though water is there with nothing medina he's not from medina he's from egypt he should have been a coptic it should have been a coptic text so this is fascinating it just gets uh the more we scratch the more we find the more we find the more we shine the more we shine the more they wind oh i'll sublime i've said this many times there's a real problem for these narratives these narratives have holes all the way through it and this is just two now i want to look at abdomenic again because i want to look at comparison when you look at abdomenic you can see everything we're showing on that graph there everything you're showing is to the right of that graph the reason why i'm doing that is because i'm for this whole year we've been talking about abdullah seems to introduce everything he's the one that introduces the shahadah laila illallah rasulullah that there's only one god but god muhammad is the prophet on the coins in 692 he then puts them on the coins in 696 which are and then introduces them on the dome of the rock in 691 and 692 and he introduces them on the uh protocols so he's the one that introduces muhammad he's the one that introduces the he is the one that also introduces the word islam and the people called muslims and he is also the one that eradicates all of the images and replaces it with the only script so if he once he now introduces the man he then has to have the book and you can see how the book then has to be created after him notice and see how many years after him that the books are finally introduced i'm going to come to another graph at another time and show you the dates but just now just so you get that visually they all come after at least they only begin to appear 40 years after of the malik and then they continue right up into the 10th century chosen in the 10th century by ibn mujahid and also in the 15th century by al-jazadi now i just want to show you this one thing here this is something that hatu made a number of years ago this is a little bit out of date but i still wanted you to go up to it because we need to update it she put this up about three years ago and uh has allowed me to see it this is her graph looking at the five cities see the five cities there you see mecca you see medina you see basra kufa and city and there are all the narrators that come from all those five cities take a look at the little the little brown clouds you see to the right because every one of those brown clouds show you how many variants each one of those narrators have from this guy here huffs this is the variance that that that we need to look at and you take a look and you will see is important because he's the one that is used in today's quran this is the quran that we all use today this is the one that we always hold up this is the one that has become now the canonical text right but every one of those clouds just take a look you can see albazi 1094 variants from house coming on down you can see it's almost too far away khalaf has two 2600 variants coming on down to allah al hadith he has over 5 000 variants these are not insignificant and we're not just talking about 2 3 4 10 20 30. we're not even talking about hundreds we're talking about thousands of differences so much so that the team there in london have come up with if you look up the graph again as well look at that slide again 93 263 variants in just 23 of the qurans they've looked at right we have even had time yet to look they haven't had time to even look at the the 30 qurans so let's then continue and what we now do is where is the source for all this and this is why what he wanted to go to where is the source for everything i've just been talking to you well to understand that we need to let's go back to the slides again there you can see muhammad he dies in 632 there's uthman he then creates the first quran that is sent to the five cities and there are the thirty gerat okay let's put them all up there in green red and purple where is the source for all this well the first one they always come up with is this guy right here ibedesak ibn sak is the first now take a look and see he's in blue there look at his dates 765. that is mid 8th century okay however however do we have imminent sex material today uh we don't we only have what his student supposedly ibn hisham not a student but certainly someone who got it from one in a student and his name is ibn hisham look at his dates 8 33. what does ibn hashem do he throws out what he doesn't like only retains what he likes and he adds more and he has more adds to it so let's just get rid of a bit of sock okay you can pretty well to dispense with him because it's nothing more than attribution right i would love to see ibn i cannot find him nothing is exist today so do we have ibn hisham ibn isham is the earliest of these traditions he dies in 833 of al-wakiri who dies in 35 then you have al buhari who dies in 870 followed by sahih muslim ib endowed and then we have al tabari so those are those are the major players i don't want there there's others that come after that there's tid media i haven't put them up there and there's others that come from tafsir after albany but those are the major players take a look at the blue and notice that they are all from the 9th and 10th century why is that significant because of this guy again of the malik look at abdul malik he dies in 692 how many years are there when the start to form how many years are there between him and the kidnapped 40 what i have 44 years when the first of the kid out formed 44 years why are muslims telling us this well i mean i i can make a case that it it's possible that eben amer at least started it earlier than the day he died and that still brings him closer to abdel malik but it comes af anything he has written comes after abdomen what about the traditions they're even further distance they're 141 years later 141 years can you then understand why these narratives have sold in it people are people look at the timeline memorize that picture right there take a look in the distance that we're talking about none of this is from the time of muhammad none of this is from the time of uthman they only begin to appear within 30 to 40 years after abdullah and as far as the traditions where we get all the stories about these guys when we get the stories about this get out they only begin to appear 140 years after of them well 140 years after malik but 180 after uthman and 100 almost 200 after muhammad exactly it keeps adding up 200 for ibn hisham 240 for al buhari and that's why muslims and i keep on telling people look at a timeline look at the dates don't keep telling me don't keep referring back to the traditions stop referring to those traditions i'm getting sick and tired of those traditions because they're too late we would never use that if that were christianity if this was what we had for our tafsir for our siddha for our hadith of jesus christ can you imagine we would have matthew mark luke and john wouldn't even begin to appear to the 3rd century that's right how would we defend jesus christ how would we defend what he did how would we defend what he said if we only had 200 years difference between that in this case 240 years so muslims need to answer these questions this is part of the holes the narratives that have holes in it this is what yasud khan is saying he wasn't kidding when he mentioned it and he knows obviously these things or at least some of these things he himself said that he has a crisis of faith but then later crisis of knowledge whatever he wants to call it but all that to say everybody can see now is there a real crisis here absolutely are there holes in the narrative you can see it you be the judge this is crisis of knowledge that leads to a crisis of faith absolutely for muslims who are watching us right now when you look at that when you look at that timeline and you walk away and say if it's this late then how in the world can we trust anything we have heard about concerning not only muhammad modern what he said not only what he did where he lived what he received even though the people amongst whom he was supposed to be a part of and the man that he called himself as a muslim all of this is pretty much going out the window once you put it on a timeline you can see this is hugely hugely significant it is much too late even to be believable that is absolutely true and this is why initially i was so excited to see muhammad hijab ask the right questions yasir khadi gives the right answers but then all of a sudden they both end up deleting they defeated can you see put yourself in their place what would you do to to defend this how can you defend this thank god we don't have this problem with the bible thank god we don't have this problem with who jesus is we know who he is we know what he did we know what he said we knew he was born we knew where he died the city that city where he died jerusalem if we could not even support a reference for a place called jerusalem until the 4th century remember you can't find any reference for the place of mecca where muhammad supposedly was born and grew up until 741 and yet he died there supposedly just north of there in 632 and yet he lived there up until 622. there is no reference for any city called mecca for another 100 years thank god we don't have this problem with jesus christ amen amen and my hope really is that yasir khadi muhammad hijab and others like them along with all the muslims who are watching this we appeal to you uh to to come to christ um it's obvious that the book that you believe in uh is not a reliable book a book that is having the hallmarks of the work of man throughout its history throughout its history it is a man that supposedly sid receive the revelation in a cave without eyewitness that says it was revealed to him it was a man who decided that it needs to be collected it's a man that decided that which dialect needs to be used and it's a man later on that decided which readings ahref has to be canonized and another man added more to it and the list continues over and over again and we get to the 1924 and we get another man who decided which one becomes the standard mosque but this time exactly a completely different muhammad who lived there and worked there in alazad university yeah brother thank you so much uh next time i think we are going to talk about the possibility of having even more than 30 there is more than 30. there's a lot more than 30. and this is something that muslims must i imagine most muslims who are watching us have not heard yet so come to the next episode you might not like what we're going to say but you need to listen to what we're now finding and what i'm going to be introducing in the next episode comes from dr shady hekmat who has done his doctoral thesis this is part of his doctoral thesis that he came out with in 2012 and these are scholars by the way harvard university they have no agenda whatsoever other than to share their findings their work is available for anyone so we're not here saying you know uh uh shady uh dr uh shady hekmat nasser is the one who's asking us to come here and talk about it no i mean we're using his work that is available for everyone to use and i hope he is okay with the fact that his work is available for anyone to analyze this is peer review no matter how you look at it and at the same time we are not sharing with you information that is not readily available for you anywhere from buying these different qurans right here to basically check in every single thing that we mentioned to you you have the sources available for you at the tip of your finger so do your homework and make a decision to come to the real book that's the bible and the real man that's our lord jesus christ until we meet again have a blessed day thank you for watching this video be sure to like and subscribe to our channel sira international also click on the bill so that you can receive notifications whenever we publish a new video or we go live and i would like to appeal to you to consider becoming a patreon patron by clicking on the link right below and that way you can give towards the production of these videos there are also other options for you on how you can give to our channel so thank you from the bottom of my heart

Channel: CIRA International

Views: 22,512

Keywords: al fadi, quran, mohammad, scripture, david wood, sam shamoun, acts17apologetics, shamounian, holy quaran, exegesis, islamic theology, arabic, Qira'at Quran Conundrum, Quran, Qira'at, Al Fadi, Dr Jay Smith, CIRA International, more than one Quran, versions of the Quran, Muslims, over 30 different qurans

Id: utVoNLfmE58

Length: 24min 20sec (1460 seconds)

Published: Wed Mar 24 2021