Survivors of The Shoah Visual History Foundation: Anya Jolson nee Kotkowska Full Interview 1998

my name is nancy fisher today's date is march 17 1998 i'm here to interview the survivor anya jolson birth name kotkovska in her home in new york city usa the language of this interview is english my name is nancy fisher today's date is march 17 1998 i'm here to interview the survivor anya jolson birth named karkovska in her home in new york city usa new york city usa the language of this interview is english please tell me your name and spell it my name is anjan joseon kotkowska anja kotkovska jolson another and i spelled my name a n i a but here i change this for a n y a and how do you spell jolson j o j-o-l-s-o-n kotkovska k-o-t-k-o-w-s-k-i was kotkowska your name at birth that's right when were you born i was born always the four 1920 and where were you born it was so in which country in poland and what is your age today 70 will be pretty soon 78 years old what was your father's name my father's name we abraham hanoch kotkowski and your mother's name penta yeah what was her maiden name marmal state what were your grandparents names on your mother and father's side i know that my i think shaya marmarstein was my grandfather and my grandmother's name was i forgot brandla marmelstein and on your father's side his parents your father's parents my parents i only knew his father he lost his mother before i think was born so i don't remember her at all but i think that his name was also shy schwarzschild something like that did you have any brothers or sisters yes i had brother whose name is itzhak kotkowski and my sister esther malka kotkovska we call her maria and my little sister deborah we call her dorenka kotkovska do you know how your parents met yes i know quite well my sister was nine years old when i was born and was bothering me very much that my mother was just married and i had a sister nine years old many years later i find out that her mother was also marvel stein his first wife passed away during the birth of her son then son passed away and she after it and remained this daughter of my father and my aunt zone because my her mother was my mother's sister and after i don't know how long after her for that my father married my mother so my sister my older sister was really my stepsister i find out about that when i was 16 years old i was wonder but i never asked questions till my sister left for mexico and i found out a picture of my father with another woman not my mother and i asked question since i still have my mother and my relative i ask question and then i find out about the whole story but we were very very close family and never came out to our mind that mauritia my older sister is not my real sister was it jewish tradition that your father would have married it was your mother it was what part of warsaw did you grow up in i was bored up in in warsaw and as long as i remember i was always in the same part of the same street what my parents moved in it was what part of the city this was the north part of warsaw which was mixed jewish and gentile was very beautiful neighborhood because just about step away we have the one of the nicest garden ogre kraszynskis which was a dream of many many people to live there and i remember all my life till i was grown up girl already we were there going almost every day and many times i was even passing krashenski when i went to my school so it was part of our life did you grow up in an apartment or a house in apartment there was no houses in in poland unless somebody were living outside warsaw there were a beautiful apartment not too big but very very comfortable we were living on the first floor if you and i were standing in front of this apartment house what would we see as a matter of fact i saw the entrance of of the street and when i look at the window i knew right away who is coming to my home or who are coming to my neighbors it was very desirable because there was no secret we always knew who is coming who is coming to our neighbors and who are coming to us how many floors did the building have that floor had eight eight or seven seven floors i think it was very beautiful building in two two chords the first one was as tall as the second one but the second where we live were more open we saw more skies and sun no we were living on the first floor and the sun didn't come to our apartment it was happy apartment how many rooms we had two big two two big bedrooms and a dining room and a kitchen and a tremendous hall bath which is very unique in this time and toilet separate which was also very unique how did the family uh get water in the apartment water yes there was a lot of water and gas and electricity and water and the most important bath and toilet which very many beautiful buildings didn't have it where did you sleep in the apartment i had my bedroom which i shared with my sister and with my brother your older sister i've been with sister who's my older sister and we were a little crowded there because it's a matter of fact that the second bedroom was also our dining room and tremendous room which you can we had two bedrooms two two beds um as a big dining table piano sewing machine and chair around it it was comfortable but you know sometimes was a little crowded my mother had a big big family she had many sisters the whole family consisted of 13 children one child which was my mother's sister who passed away passed away so my grandmother had 12 children and that was five girls and seven boys and we were very very close family did they all live in warsaw they all yes they all were in warsaw were they very much part of your life they were very much part of our life and with all occasion they were all together so was crowded because they were married too they had children too and you have to put them together in one table because the chairs we couldn't have room to to put extra chairs away so but it was very warm and for you very wonderful i remember this so like this would be yesterday was there any relative any aunt or uncle who was a favorite of yours i think that all my uncle and and were very very close to us there was one uncle who was very close to my mother age probably because in every picture i had i saw my mother with him and he was violinist he used to come to us always with his violin and play i don't remember if this was a good play or role but he was playing what was his name his name was or he was this name i am a little short penis pin pinkus it's a matter of fact that part of his family is still alive in israel what language was spoken in your home we were spoken polish where did your family go to buy food you know this in our neighborhood we had a small stores where you could buy almost everything which is needed for food there was special places where you could buy a meat because we were kosher and i don't even remember where my mother used to buy kosher i wasn't interested in in disrespect but i know that for example to get bread or sugar or salt we had right next to our to our apartment house a little store where did your family buy clothing for the children the clothing we didn't buy clothing the clothing was made to order and they were dressmakers who are sewing for us i don't remember ever as long as i was in poland that my mother bought me a dress shoes were made also to order there were places where you could buy but the very expenses expensive and in different and different part of our place where we were living mostly the stores were around us weren't clothing fur coats yes but dresses are almost made to order what was the currency in poland loyalty was your home typical of other families was your home was your economic status typical of other jewish families not typical we were above the typical unfortunately for for the jews were very poor and they i would consider that we were living in luxury to compare with other naturally there were people who were living more luxurious that we did but i consider myself living in in a luxury we had we had beautiful apartment we live in nice neighborhood we have water and this this this this was considered luxury and we had piano which is also tremendous luxury there in a nice neighborhood so i would say that i was living in luxury who played the piano my sister my sister since she was 9 years 9 years old later on i find out that they wish which wish of my out her mother when she passed away probably she didn't die suddenly but she to continue my sister education in music she was very gifted she finished conservatory awards warsaw conservatory in 1936 with the highest reward and was and she was so good that they promised her a job in polish radio when she finished with the highest it was i remember her professor um how he when when she finished her concert you know the showing concert when she finished or or the student had to give some kind of rehearsal or whatever and she was playing i never forget this as long as i will live and after this she got this preposition to her her professor was professor leffert i never forget the proposition after the proposition when she was um when she got this proposition rather that she will be playing in in polish radio and i never forget how this was after few months when she had to um give some you know some kind of about about her life and about her [Music] how you call this summary of her life and she puts among them with the religions and she puts jewish that was monsieur verdes nani and ten days later she was rejected she wanted to commit suicide and this was the time when she decided to go to mexico to leave poland and this was a very important part of my life in 1936 my little sister was born she was she was something we were already grown up people my sis my mother got birthed to the renka when she was seven months old madisha left over mexico what was it like in the family once this young child very happy life i heard extremely happy life i have the most fantastic mother when i talk about like i kill stuff talk because she was the star of of my life she was she was she was everything what human being was wishing for she was extremely intelligent person and very in this time very well educated she spoke three languages perfect she finished gymnasium which my sister went to she was the first student in gymnasium is over this matter of fact that all her sisters were educated in the same gymnasium unfortunately maybe maybe fortunately i didn't went to the same gymnasium i went to hebrew gymnasium but there was so much life in our home there's so much culture in our home so much music in our there was so many people with higher culture coming to our home that this this idea is still in me and i thank you for the rest of my life i never her background my background i owned to my mother my father was a very honest person extremely handsome person but more business-like and he tried his way to give us everything but this wasn't the cultural way he gave money and we weren't too rich but it would we were quite comfortable people music theater movie this time movie were very unique was the most important i am not talking about books was the most important part of our life and not only for me but naturally for my sister who was 16 years older than me and actually i am mistaken about 10 10 years older than me the people who used to come to our home the musician who used to come my my dog my sister should accompany as well were the greatest artists which poland really created and i remember for example as a little girl my my sister used to take me to philharmonia i was already in music we couldn't afford to pay tickets maybe we could but there was no ticket available she always had a stair staircase near the entrance of the hall we were sitting there she said anya you sit here i have permanence sitting inside but you sit here but the door will be a little open so you will hear the music me and my brother who's still alive in in el paso texas we when we meet each other we always remember all the concerts what existed we heard to opera we were going where once a month for sure we were sitting on the highest highest place for 55 grocery which was you cannot even compare with the i was sitting with my mother there not down in the lodge or something but we had to go there polish theater i don't remember ever miss any play we were very rich in this respect and i miss it so very much here in the united states that you have no idea it was completely different way the culture was was so deep in our being which i miss very much unfortunately i cannot hear everything is so very expensive when you go over there was am free for everybody you didn't sit in the in part there or the doors but you sit there but everybody could afford what were these musical evenings like in your home very busy home but my sister was there was very busy because she had always friends coming and she was accompanies the violence and she had given lesson music lessons there was always my father complained terribly but but he he went out to school or to his friends but this has to be we saw we were very busy with our family with my mother sister and brother who used to come very often and naturally later on when we were going to school my friends used to come to me because fortunately i have nicest apartments that my friends in school and we were doing our school our home work in our home so was quite busy we always had made in our home and and governess as long as i remember i have always had her coveredness even when i was a grown-up person did your mother belong to any organizations outside your home she belonged there was not too many organizations in in poland this this time first of all israel didn't exist only the idea of having a country for our own but she belongs to art and she was um and she was preparing us and since all the clothes had to be made so she took courses in sewing we had a song machine so she was sewing for for us for me and for my sister and for herself and she was quite a good one in in this um there was you see i went to hebrew gymnasium and this time already the the idea of cyronius came out very openly we were dreaming about having our own country and my gymnasium one of the one of the first one who introduced this there was many hebrew gymnasium men gymnasium because i went to girls gymnasium yehudia which are girl gymnastics but hinok lower ascola and krinsky they were also hebrew partly hebrew gymnasium but i don't believe that idea of cyanide was as strong as our gymnasium for example in in our classroom there was always a picture of the president of poland and bialik bialik was then very very famous writer who introduced the idea of cyanide to young people and so forth and we cherish this man and i remember bialik coming to our school i was i don't remember i was in third or fourth grade and it was something very unique and idea of our school was naturally that after finishing gymnasium to go to palestine and because of this idea quite a few of my friends older than me went to palestine and they became very famous people in palestine one of my friends was the secretary of mrs goldberg and they survived naturally so when i came first time to israel and they you know usually they used to pay put name who arrived to israel many years ago when israel wasn't yet israel as a as a country that anna johnson anna kotkovska joseon came to so i got so many calls and letters because i also wrote where i am staying that i couldn't even recognize these friends who came to see me but they knew me but i i said from yahoo dear so they knew right away that that's it's from their school from their gymnasium who are your teachers my my i have been a teacher but the most wonderful teacher who who became very rich very famous here is emmanuel ringelblum he was my teacher history teacher and we love him and unfortunately he he perished in such a terrible tragic he was very close with us there is not that teacher the teacher student relationship was completely different than this we were like one big family if somebody needed help or somebody needed something they always could turn into their the teacher to ask and they helped them with with idea what they learned and some some children couldn't understand the teacher used to call them up to come to their home it was very unique in this respect and um and i felt in my gymnasium like being being privileged to be there what were your other subjects that you studied there there was no subject there there was polish there was there was french there was latin there was hebrew there was mathematic there was physic there was gymnastics what else we have there was not the gymnasium i think was completely different for example we were from eight o'clock from school um in school till about three o'clock and every hour there was another subject and different teachers the teacher were all jewish very educated mostly mostly women two men were well professor kaplan which was teaching us mathematics and history professor erling was the most fantastic person ever and a great scientist he was scientists but you know a little lefty but extremely bright would you please tell me a little bit about your father and what he did my father had a business on nalevke 20 and he was selling i don't know how in english you will say you know culturally yes and [Music] very particular his his story look like like no like the box and whoever came here they knew that they when they are coming to my father he will find exactly what they wanted very particular maybe even too much because if somebody was missing something he was very angry and he was doing quite well in the beginning then next door to him his ex-partner opened a store and they were they were not fighting physically but one wanted my my husband the customer and vice versa and it was not a pleasant pleasant um situation but otherwise he was quite successful not rich we weren't nourished people at all we were comfortable people but not rich did you ever spend any time in that store not too much my my brother used to come to help father but i used to come very seldom my mother don't used to come when we went to school and she has plenty of time to help him she did help him he had some men who was working as long as i remember he left when when the war started or something like that a young fellow what were the values that your father taught you what values did your father teach you my father was a rather religious person he was so busy with his business and he believed so much in my mother's way of of of being a teaching that he didn't take part of our education or something he was only very much disappointed that unfortunately he spoke with my mother polish but very often in english unfortunately i don't even can express myself in english and i regret this very much and i think that my father regretted this too and my husband for sure i don't know why this language didn't stick with me yet there was the language english was spoken in our home i i was quite good one time once upon a time in hebrew but i also forgot that if you are not using length which you are not good in it then you forget did your family belong to a synagogue yes we did belong to synagogues there was once synagogue quite big to compare with this state not little um how for 24 i don't remember very nice very nice rule and i remember going quite often there in some way i was quite religious as a child because one one thing i remember very closely and even my aunt who was living 300 years in france remember this fact her son was was taken to his hospital he had we were living there in in a little town like uh um out of out of warsaw where people were going for summer um living there for two months when the children were out of school and her son got very sick and was taken taken to hospital and i was seeing it i was seven years or eight years old i took a sidor and i was praying to god he should come healthy and you know i remember this i remember this very well because we were very close family and here a child who he was i think my age or maybe younger or older he was taken to hospital hospital was something horror and when i visited my aunt in france she remind me about that i said you know and lonia i remember this very well and god was good to me because he lived till till 75 years he just passed away in france so i was i had something religious with me can you describe what the inside of your synagogue looked like it was quite big and there was two you know on on the main floor there were men and there was ark and my father was sitting in the front of the ark he had a beautiful voice and sometimes when the counter was away they called my father to to carry and we were sitting above them it was very nice synagogue the synagogue was built in the court of the house of the apartment house somewhere and i remember going there quite often during the high holidays but there was some torah that was the end during the yom kippur was mother i always kept company with her but otherwise i wasn't the one who who were going to first of all personal women were going to i i don't remember even or i want not interested women going to school man yes and my father was going every shabbat friday evening shabbat did you have a religious education not not religious education my my school wasn't religious it was you know scientists rather not not religious but we were i know how to read hebrew i know how to read the prayers in hebrew and this i i will never forget but there was no natural religious from the point of you have to know when you read cedar you have to know what you are reading about but to put the religious into it i feel something different to believe in something i believe in god very much so and very deep so but i am not i don't know how to express myself i am not religious put it this way did your brother have a bar mitzvah he had barman's fun and very nice batman as well but we didn't know what is batsmith for example that doesn't exist and i it's a matter of fact that my brother is only two years younger than me on my grandson bar mitzvah he repeated his his what is this what he said during kisses bar mitzvah which i was amazed i couldn't believe it for so many years he had more religious education that i did do you remember the day he was bar mitzvahed i don't remember he he's he was 13 years old i don't remember the date i remember the gifts what he got but the date no what did he receive i know that he received a camera which was very unique gift that he received many books and but this this camera was the top of the gifts otherwise no there was no money given at bar mitzvah but misfortune exists in bar mitzvah even when somebody has a birthday no one give you money as long as i know from my family we got gifts but not money i was so surprised when i came to this country and i saw the envelope it was morning i was outraged but probably that is the custom how were your birthdays celebrated my celeb my birthday were celebrated always in the country because i was born in august very much so you know always prepare some kind of games or play and i do remember the play too but very funny because my mother put a lot of effort to be something special and my two aunt who were younger than my mother three out it's a matter of fact who prepare all this fancy thing like like papers here and decorated and as a matter of fact i have some picture taken from my birthday body and always beautifully dressed this was always the rest especially for anya for the birthday and i remember one dress which was very unique because it was velvet dress with pink with here and out waist pinking a bow like a picture on it it was celebrated you mentioned the country was in the country where was the country not far from warsaw there was you know this time this was far away from warsaw but to compare with student he this was like going let's say about half a half an hour away from from new york city but there was there were villas pl plenty of guernery trees not far when we were living going to yusuf there was a little like schweder where there is water and we were just walking distance and we could swim how many months during the year would you spend we were staying there till the end of summer and when the beginning of school because was about two months and every as long even during the war i mean in 1939 my mother was already was my little sister in the same place in yousef was my little sister and war broke out i'd like to return to warsaw and ask you a few more questions about your religious life you mentioned that your father went to synagogue for the sabbath did your family observe the sabbath in your home there was a shabbos in our home oh friday evening what was that like first of all this was always candles litten i don't remember ever miss it white prepare cafeter fish food our relatives used to come quite often two hours to our friday but i must tell you that's maybe secret not to tell about that but i could write in shabbat my father never he was the religious person in our home i was not necessarily traveling or shabbat for example going every shabbat we were going to my father father who was quite far away living far away and we were walking to him we never travel on shabbat in front of my father i couldn't do it i couldn't write but my father didn't see i i had to do my homework let's say i couldn't do it on shabbat who let the candles who would light the candles friday night mother and who said the prayers my mother she was keeping this shabbat not as strict as my father but she did keep our home was strictly cautious anyhow there was nothing else jews were were strictly kosher there was no such thing i don't remember among my friends we shouldn't eat something not kosher did you have another did you have a favorite holiday within the year i i would say that each holiday was very very festive because we were meeting all together the whole family was together this was the only time when we got together was on holidays because everybody was working and in in warsaw people on shabbat didn't work this the stores were close so we all got to to meet together and it was very hard because it was extremely happy family very close family so we met at our home or our arts home or whatever or in the during this summer we used to meet on shabbat in in krashenski's ogre family and it was different that going i i don't remember going on shabbat too sure i don't remember sometimes my mother when she has your side or something like that growing up did you ever experience any anti-semitism not too much though we had women gentle women working for us in our home mates i remember that all were very close to us they adore my mother and they were wonderful people i know only that on high on certain holidays my father wouldn't let us go out for example um christmas or something like that because people were going to go to churches going out from churches and there was but personally i didn't feel it what was outside i cannot tell you i cannot tell you anything what i don't feel myself on my body because there was anti-semitism very much though and the anti-semitism was mostly jealousy because they didn't even understand why they are anti-jews only because jews were living maybe a little better and dress a little better but otherwise i i must say quite open i didn't feel the only time when i felt was during the holocaust not not yet holocaust but when we had to my parents had to move from from the apartment where they were living because it was restricted for gentiles and my our housekeeper came to visit us and she said to my mother in polish i would say if i can panic use this this then service it means that this the setting of rosenthal what you have in your in your closet you won't be able to use anymore you are jewish you have to move out and my mother look at her and pick up the most fantastic dishes and was throwing out on the floor one after another one after i never forget this side she was red and angry and she was throwing she said now you can pick it up that is yours and that was the only and this woman was working with us maybe three years and she was very close with my little sister when the war broke out my sister was only four years old and instead to send mrs jo mrs gotkovska i will take dorenka i know that is a danger and i will pick her and i will keep her she didn't say it and that was the only time when i really felt anti-semitism and and you know this fact make me so because you know from all my friends who were gentiles i didn't have too many but my sister had a lot of friends who were gentile came from from conservatorium to her and so forth the relationship subconsciously changed but you know we were already in the time of transit to go out from from ghetto so i don't even wanted to remember those those people there was only one man who was very close with my my sister who became very famous violinist in england came to us and he asked me if i want to go away from poland i never forget that this was proposition my my sister was already away from from poland i didn't want to leave my parents i didn't even because he was much older than i was and he said i am leaving poland though he was gentile so if you ask me the question if i felt anti-semitism i didn't my father probably did when you graduated from gymnasium what was the expectation for a woman at that time what was she supposed to do next you see since my sister was away in mexico and she constantly there was every week a letter from her she wanted me very much to come to mexico my brother was ready to go and he prepared himself by taking spanish he spoke spanish quite well after because right after she left he he knew that his dream is going to do i i didn't want to leave my parents unless my parents would decide which they didn't decide my hus my father had a successful business he wouldn't live for unknown and my mother either our life was successful then then the war came out you know the idea that that that there is going to be something very unique i didn't know what war is my mother and my father knew because they they went through the second world war i was very happy i was surrendered with beautiful people i didn't want to to take any studies i wanted to be free for a year and in this year i spent indusgonicki the most fantastic summer i ever had with my friends with my boyfriend whom i like very much with partly his family when they're that almost like like a little crowd of very close people and being there in in august something came to our we didn't have radio radio was a very unique uh thing to have in in in in poland very few people had it we had that you know on on our you know not allowed but but on our ears and my mother said a lot to me anya telephone was very difficult to get from warsaw to the nikkei was near the the la lithuania border so she was writing to me almost every day it's something going on come home and i didn't want to go home i didn't even think about war what is war but finally we decided to go the whole group i know that some of the people lost their luggages already because the train didn't go on time and some people wanted not to come to back to poland but they went to in lithuania and somehow they knew that the first shack will be in in poland from from german not in lithuania but in poland so the iran and some of the people who were there with me survive being in lotto eliteva because part of them went through [Music] to japan we were i went to to po back to warsaw i knew that the light is out already the window our cover with black sheets and paper or whatever and and there is darkness we couldn't go out till 8 o'clock there was limit to to go on the street and exactly maybe five or a week or ten days the war broke out because i came the last week of august and september the first the war broke out you know when i didn't remember i didn't remember being afraid i didn't remember i didn't believe that something could have tragically happened to us war is war like the the war before and so forth and the war i learned from the newspaper or the on the books i read and then suddenly the signals and um not hodging not hodging and it means it's coming it's coming so the the plane are coming and i realize when the first bomb fell down and unbelievably the the the bomb fell down very close to our home and this was about you know the war started the first the seven of september this was very close and i remember that they were there they put my brother upon the roof to wash because they were throwing the bombs on the roof and another person and the bomb came on on our roof there was shaking and take some cover because they also told us to put scent above the roof and this two man my brother and another one i don't remember whom covered you know this this bomb that fire or whatever and this way he saved our home in the meantime we went old ma my mother my little sister my father to to the basement and we were covered from the shake we were covered with dust and all the things and that's what i i started to believe in war i knew that war is not a joke and then after a few days it tooks about three weeks good three weeks to destroy completely warsaw in during these three weeks my father's business was burned and my uncle who lived very close to this store where my father had call us up come as long as there is still a possibility to take out some of the merchandise my my brother and my other cousin and my uncle somehow i don't remember how this my brother had to remind me how they got a little uh you know where to put all these merchandise and they brought this merchandise to our apartment not knowing that our apartment might also burn something but part of my father merchandise survive which was something out of this world it was a lack of flags because about three hours later was completely done and i had a boyfriend who was living just next to my father's place where he had his business and they have business also in the same place where they were living everything was born and he came around to me and he said we lost everything we're very rich people they what they were wearing they were saved nothing and he said look how lucky you are that your father at least got something my father wasn't too satisfied he wanted everything to be said but thank god for this our apartment by some tremendous luck survival was never um destroyed after this one what i told you before that was saved by my brother and then another man we had roof over our house you see this started from the north germans started to to the destroy houses from the northern part of warsaw many many many many buildings were completely destroyed but many were destroyed and later on somehow rebuilt or the high floors were destroyed but the lower floor were not and after the wars stopped because after a month the 29 there was there was already after the war uh you know in in poland in warsaw i know not in poland they give up there was a lot of dirt around us and this has to be clean and who was called juice and there was the first the first time that i find out that i am jewish they find out that i am a slave that i am going to suffer they took all the men and especially juice and they have to stop go and be on time and clean and this and that my mother was heartbroken because they called you see there were some people in our apartment house who are gentile then i find out about about anti-semitism because they deliver the jews from our apartment house to clean the the street and the houses around us and i remember that since our apartment was dirty and the the bambi stopped we didn't have water we didn't have gas would didn't have electricity and we were living not from from this tulap sulai is the the river which was going through divided warsaw from from other part of of warsaw which was called praga my my brother i and my cousin who was living then with us when the war started we went to vistula to get water in order to have and this this water was condemnated you know it's you could drink what we did it how we did it i don't know i don't remember i know or only that this water help us to clean our kitchen first of all no electric since our we were hungry because my mother prepared when there was a sign of war coming my mother prepared some potatoes and some food and we keep this in our basement each each people who are living at a part of basement in our we have potatoes potatoes were the most important part of food we were very very lucky but i remember about a week or ten days our apartment was and not a window by the way so window we were covered with hard paper i don't know how to cover them later we find out that that there is thin wood which we can somehow it's blank i don't remember how this very very shortly and very fast was fixed was called because she's already was end of september but we are we were seeing all around our friends what happened our relatives in our friends people who were rich suddenly became beggars without anything i remember a girlfriend of mine with whom i was in in in druzgeniki anya you are so lucky i said why i am lucky i said you know all my father's business is destroyed thank god we still have our apartment but everything what we had was stolen out like you know the people became wild white they didn't care if that's why was my relative or there was my neighbor they were stealing they were hungry and you know somehow we overcome this my brother though was called many times to clean the street and were hit by by german and then he decided and russia by the way occupied the the western part of poland eastern part excuse me of poland and he decided i am not going to stay and being the slave i am going out where are you going my mother asked to russia to the to the east my mother didn't say word i know that she went through hell she helped him to go there she organized at some kind of transportation and he left we had he went somewhere near bialystok which was a very big city and he as sri lankans he could communicate but people who were going there from from warsaw to they were traveling there was not permitted and there were shot many people were shot on the um line you know which divides german and russian yet there was some kind of communication there was still not light and there was no communication whatsoever just from person to person and he left and from this point on we lost we didn't know what he is what was life like in warsaw under german occupation it was extremely difficult difficult you see i would lie to you if i would say that i didn't have bread but my friends my relatives didn't have bread didn't have what to leave there was no money they they were they were they they lost everything and when you went out on the street and you saw the beggars walking and asking for bread and stealing bread if i will tell you a story about my experience if you want to hear it this was already about a year a year after occupation of warsaw thank god i had everything i had roof over my head i had what to eat i was dressed and i was already married with my husband but this fact i must tell you how terrible it was in in in poland in the ghetto i was i was ready but let's let's get to that part you know within time i'm i'm interested in knowing what it was like during the year before the ghetto was set up did you for example have to identify yourself in any way as being jewish yes i was in the ghetto but so i i i was jewish i was close and i i was it's it's a matter of fact i don't remember exactly when they start to put you know band around our this i don't remember i wish i should what did that look like this was a white what color was it blue and where did you have to wear it on my right or left hand i don't remember either so we were identified by this and everybody that was ordered made orders right away after occupation of of german there were against us jews first of all we had to wear this band then they we have to move from certain part of our apartment my parents apartment was evacuated after after i would say a year because by the way a year after occupation wasn't as bad because we couldn't move yet freely freely that we didn't have yet this bed because i remember that somebody there was hunger and my mother heard that somewhere in the south part of warsaw wasn't as destroyed as the north part there is some place where you can get potatoes potatoes were the most important part of our diet and i remember going with my mother walking there that was so far away you have no idea now i i remember but we went with my mother and we got something and then we went through the street with the main street of warsaw marsha koska and there were paul stood up with a microphone and we heard that hitler is coming to warsaw and he is going to talk i was with my mother my mother spoke very very well german and we stopped just before our home and hear the voice of hitler and she in german my mother know german she said anya this is in and i never forget it this is end of our life already first of all he said that all the jews had to to disappear something horrible i don't remember exactly what he said but he said to me anya that is the end of us and i am so very glad that ego left my brother and we came with this little thing home we had it took about another another half a year till they started to move people out from the from the houses mostly from the part of warsaw which was occupied mostly by jews in the meantime before this happened i met my husband and i got married and that my my wedding there was quite a few people from my family who still survive and my friends from school one is a witness to my wedding who is still alive and the same day when we were married the first jewish tramway car with yellow yellow sign was started to run the warsaw ghetto wasn't yet divided but there was already plan how to divide and we knew about it because everything under the underground jewish underground work work very hard and this you can easily find in the my professor ringel blum book they by day day by date i don't remember because i was not so much interested in the whole thing i was interested about my family and their well-being how did you meet your husband during this year i met at the at the house of my friends he was they were my friends and they were his friends by by coincidence i met them and probably he fell in love with me i don't know because after 10 days or two weeks or three weeks he asked me if i want to marry him i said you know that was the most fantastic proposition and and i married him the 29th of of september 1940. so where were you married in warsaw we were married in a rabbi's house it was a big living room i had been invited very close friend of of ours the food was very difficult to get so we couldn't afford to invite too many people when i come back to it i see that i i see just my friends but not even my relative very few relatives my mother invited she couldn't afford and and he gave i remembered only one part when i was under hoopa and my by the way i have a boyfriend before before the war and he wanted to marry me too and he got sick in our home after his whole house was destroyed in business and he came to us and he got very high temperature he went to his uh my mother asked him to stay in our home because we still have it he said no this is too tight i want to go to my sister apartment i just find out that it stays and his sister was just married a few few few months or few months before and he unfortunately on typhus after 10 days of being sick so exactly and this was quite after the war when i was under the hopper my father came to me he said you know this is the day when when biology died my ex-boyfriend i was married the day you know when he died year later i never forget it so i got married my husband was quite rich nothing was destroyed in his business and nothing was destroyed in his home stay he was he extremely bright man he knew what to do right away how to how to build up himself and what to do i i i never was hungry i never was without any roof above me and i never was cold i've had everything and somehow because i have it i could help my parents but my family was completely destroyed to start helping each other was almost impossible at the end of the last tape you said that after marrying leon you were well provided for yes what were circumstances like for your family was very difficult extremely difficult but yet they survived because first of all i helped them as much as i could i had my little sister who was poor going to five years old very often at my home and having food in my home though she was very close with with my mother we met quite often um in in ghetto i was very close with with my mother but there still the the relationship were were as not as close as was before because i have already my own life which i was with my husband his his crowd he had quite a lot of friends coming to our home and every every wednesday we used to meet at our apartment which was very comfortable we were the most happy people and really not only that we were happy but privileged in many ways we have apartments for ourselves and they were apartment full of stranger in one apartment they put two three families they were sleeping on the floor they were one part of the family didn't have what to eat the other part family because they were almost stranger sometimes refugees and so forth was was this was your family's living situation like this before the ghetto or after they get it was set up no this was after the ghetto it went to the right let me ask you how did you learn that there was going to be a ghetto in warsaw there was obvious because they were building um [Music] they were building like they separate us by building walls around our neighborhood and the wall was very high you couldn't go through it and were finished with wire and and there were entrances in certain parts of the ghetto where the germ german germans people were standing and um and watching people because some people were working out of ghetto and so they have a special explanation ectomation to go out and to come back who built the wall who built the wall jews i don't remember exactly who by i am sure that the jews were burning if they were somebody working there were jews who were working they were people who were used they were jews who were used and they were never paid maybe i don't i never had any contact with people like this so i really cannot tell you um for certain who who built but i am sure that whatever was needed to be done in ghetto or even out outside the ghetto they were calling on jews so was that jews were very happy to get job like this because at least they they used to get food what kind of food and how and also a way how to for example when they had to do something outside the ghetto the people who were working jews had a special legitimation you know so coming out they were they were gentile who used to sell something um to the jews so they could come from the other side together with some bread or some butter or what whatever or sugar whatever whatever but i am not so much into it to tell you the the details because i wasn't up to it you know sometimes i said that i was i like just like myself not to see certain things which now i regret very much because i i can not even talk about that because i don't know was there ever a possibility of your your family moving in with you and your husband could that have happened could happen but not my parents and not my husband would like to be together with he i remember that his mother had to move from from her apartment because was what was very dangerous to live there and she stayed with us he was very annoyed with it he wasn't used to live with anybody but she stayed with us for a while my mother had her own and my parents they on house they were changing from one house to another and losing on they were on their way all those things but they were body themselves i used to meet them or at my home i never went to their apartment i just couldn't i just couldn't we met on on you know there were in warsaw there were quite a lot of of uh gardens and my little sister was playing with with children over there who who survived and we we met quite often with my mother my father used to stay mostly at home because he still have some merchandise because the merchandise were the import the most important part of his survivor surviving so he and the moment when somebody left the apartment somebody else came and saw whatever you know there was the the most honest people the most richest people were stealing you never saw something like that i remember walking out you see you could buy in certain places in ghetto bread for example and where do you keep bread you don't keep inside some people did inside because they were afraid to but i just couldn't believe that i can eat bread which is inside of me so i had a bread in a package and always try to have some kind of paper bag and i remember walking out from my from my house having this bread under my pocket and i was attacked by a young fellow and i turned about and i always fainted my friend with whom i finish school because you know before mathura when you make this examination there is so called sunupka 100 days before mathura and i was dancing with him intelligent bright gorgeous boy with his little brother and i turned and we looked and we our eyes met he said i am sorry anya please forgive me i'm hungry my parents died from hunger and here completely almost like naked full of and he said don't go don't go close to me i am full of lies i am hungry can you help me i said henry how can i help you he said here on the corner i would like you to meet all our friends who still have something to leave some clothing and if possible some food and a week from today i will take it in the meantime get in touch with them i after meeting him i almost failed it i got in touch with all my friends with whom i knew because everybody was moving and you couldn't write you couldn't call you just met by by mouth you knew that she and she is moving here and and somehow during the week we we assembled somehow of of uh clothing and food and we left in the corner and this was cornick or lesnar and solna and i was never forget that and the day went at 10 o'clock in the morning i was on the other side of the street and i saw this little boy picking up those things i thought that i will fade i knew that he won't survive anyhow because he was looking like like skeleton already but he took it and this side i will never forget in my life that was the most tragic sight that ever i ever had during the get off of time and that's how you you saw after ghetto was close people were dying on the street people who were up who were a few of two years before rich having their own home and and that's like like nobody care nobody pay any attention because we didn't know if tomorrow we will be on the same place and you know this little things were going through because there there was no communication anymore there was no terrain the moment when they built the when they built their walls there was no more runway going through that step so there was a rickshaws a human being were were going on the rickshaws and picking up people who could afford it or who could walk or whatever and this was something also very difficult to do to even talk about it human being holding people in directions i tell you something day after day there was like disappearing you know the mood of the people change and they and then suddenly one day you get up and you say that even the place where you ghetto has to be destroyed only people who are worker who who are who get the permit to work for german industry are alive are able to to be get on work in the shops and here leon will tell you more details because he was one of the creator of shops like that and he and he was able to to help his family by putting them into shop i also work over there for for a few months two three three three months maybe it's matter of fact that my mother also got a permit to work in one of the shop what he he organized leon and she was taking my little sister with her and keeping her a monk a clothing which had to be sewn in a box for six hours or more then the sport girl was shocking but the people who work in the shops were also gentile so they knew about it and they brought some food to them cookies for for her and she was sitting and she couldn't open her mouth for six hours where did you work in the ghetto i was working for very short in one of the shop where leon organized very shortly and then he got very close with the head of the german ahead of this he will tell you more details because i i i wasn't up to 18 even and he once asked who is this girl showing on the machine he meant manned me i don't know why and he said you know she is my wife so he said to him why is she here why is she not on the other side german why don't you take her on the other side of the ghetto and this somehow give idea to me that i have german he's telling me i should that i might go there but i wasn't sure yet in the meantime leon makes some connection with outside people who he will tell you the details but i i don't want to tell something which i don't really know but he got for me a false paper which i by the way have this phone call and i went and i stay over there for about less than a year but on my own and my husband's stay business was this place where he worked i cannot tell you any details about that i know that i was on the other side and this is completely different story of mine who owned the shop that you were working in uh carol schultz that was latino 76 this was the whole house and taken by by by this firm and they make big shops where few few hundred or few thousand i don't even know i know that for me it's almost like a point i don't even want to remember this i was working there maybe maybe two months maybe i don't i don't really remember his family stay there what kinds of things were you doing they used to show and there were um warm underwear for the german soldiers how many hours a day did you do that they were working from eight o'clock in the morning there was at five o'clock half an hour they were giving soup and they were working since about five o'clock and they left but these people had a pyramid and for this permit for this piece of paper they were giving diamonds to work over there because when they show let's say if a german stop him what are you doing on the street or what are you doing here when he show that he works and this he was relief so in this shop there were people working who were very rich people who could afford to pay for the permit so because i was so trained to work as a or many other people like me in the shop like somebody else to fly under this but i could afford to be there my husband was a very important person there he really organized this whole thing but then it it was a little too tight and the idea of going being able to be on the other three free zones or so-called warsaw that was the south part of warsaw which was which was a gentile i got this paper and i started to live i changed my face i made a face in this instead of crying i was smiling if days of off be dressed like everybody else i was dressed well and i went there to our norm i didn't know and i didn't have too many people gentile people who would be my friend did you have a different name yes and naturally i i got a ken carter which was something like today passport and and i went i didn't know whom i am going to live with whom i am going to meet how i will take it i didn't know i knew just that i had got above me who will who will do whatever he wants to i was very lucky you know my look is not typical jewish my polish language is perfect i wish my english would be like this i my behavior was very good i was very well behaved education ways and this way and and i move differently somebody told me that i shouldn't say because i met some gentleman and he said to me look out ianka i didn't know what him what he meant i walked he said you are not jewish your legs are not jewish your speaker is not jewish your face is not jewish you are not a jewish can you imagine hearing this to a jewish girl i i thought oh again now you have to watch every step you make every south you make and i tried my best probably this time i was quite a good actress because nobody discovered me really i was i was it's midnight for the first the first homework i have i stayed this very shortly but this landlady who who give me her apartment with i had to pay for it i don't know if she knew or not probably she knew because who would i don't know i never asked but she liked me very much she even cooked for me can you imagine i have very nice apartment and i was very lucky with her she lived on santa cruz street 28 and i was there only i don't know maybe a month and then move another family moved but this other family was so hysterical they didn't look at all like jews they behaved not like jews you know was this but they were hysterical and somehow some somebody somebody above there were talking to me anya that is not a good place for you and i told leon leon i have to change this place and somehow through somebody i don't remember who's home i got a place someplace else by mrs mayevska how were you able to communicate with your husband i could because he had prepared me to go out and i could send through the people who were working in the shop who were gentile and very honest people i could i could meet them and write a little not to learn how what and what and this was a very important moment in my hive also i went i went to this place to mrs maievska very far away from from because chatokskas street was closer to ghetto than when i went later on to chernikovska street to this mrs mayevska and that was she was living in a small house on the on the main floor and she was sick and she was lying in bed all the time when i met her she was in bed very elegant woman and i find out later on when i met her and we started to talk she the moment when she saw me yanetchka sit next to me you are my sunshine i should just saw me i didn't know about her i did not ask questions she knew that i am jewish she knew but she didn't mention it and i knew that this woman is 100 honest somehow i don't know why but she had the most fantastic housekeeper the most beautiful woman i ever saw i never saw so beautiful woman like this housekeeper she was a little jealous of me because she took care of mrs mayevska and my my name is she had the cancer of breasts and over there there was no there was no cure she was going later on i will tell you she knew that missy manoska mayevska died very shortly and everything what is her will be for this woman so she was jealous she didn't know exactly who i am she may be expected that is something what i am doing here but she was nice she she loves me mrs maievska and somehow she loves me too i don't know why because the moment when i walk she was jealous i know in many ways that i was sitting with her and talking to her and we were we were talking about polish literature about music about this and she was telling me about her husband who was taking to a camp because he was a high officer polish high officer and i was very close with this other woman too and we were i said listen i am not going to to sit with mrs mariadevska let's sit together and eat breakfast dinner and and together we got very close this this mate gorgeous woman what was your what was your presenting story when you went to try to rent these rooms she didn't she never asked me this this girl mrs maievska knew about she knew about my husband she knew about my family she i told her everything mrs mayorska knew exactly who i am i tell you the funniest story then the doctor used to come and i was her nurse i was in a white uniform young maybe a little pretty or both never had makeup in my life anytime but as you see me and the doctor came very famous doctor came to her he looked at me and i bet he recognized me and they you have to do a injection for the pain and i didn't know how to make injection this doctor taught me how to do it i bet i never asked him but i bet that he knew that i am jewish covered up very nice when you went out on the street i didn't go out too many very seldom but when you went out when i went out what was the greatest fear you see i didn't have fear them somehow surrounded by these people who were so good to me i didn't and this this place where she lives was so typical goish that you have no idea there was there was not hiding people because in other places there were quite a lot of people who hide as a gentile in this place not i live in a place which was far away from everything it was very ex exquisite and exclusive place but i had a church nearby very famous church and when i had to go out i stayed in church i went to church at the end of the last tape you said that when you did go out you would go to a church yes there was not far away from this place a church you see i never went out because my job was to stay with mrs maievska mrs maievska was very interesting and very cultured person and i didn't want to to show my face every i wasn't interested to go out that was summer there when i went there and i was very happy staying there so i didn't have any kind of of a possibility even to met stranger on the street or oh this is you or this is one hiding or they would know me or they couldn't know me because i wasn't so popular and i wasn't showing off i i was dressed very simply i was very some simple person now i i was very simple then when i was young but i had to go out because of the other girl you see she maybe was thinking that something is wrong but she was charming she was she was so good that you have no idea i never was afraid of put that this way i never was afraid of this woman who was working for mrs maievsky may i ask you what what year are you talking about this was a nineteen 19 40 42 i left by the way i forgot to mention to you after i lost my mother and my sister my little and my father i never had any connection already with my family and i knew that that is the end of jews and there was one of the part a reason for me to away from ghetto too this was just like like signal because after all i could stay after they my husband my husband was by himself already he has his family still working in the shop but i didn't have anybody already to look for to see to talk to that was very very strong desire for me to go out from there what do you mean by losing your family i had only my mother and my sisters little sister and my father that was my family because other all the other family was lost already before my uncle my aunt my cousins or whatever what i mean is what happened to your family what happened to your i don't know i know that this happened to them what happened to all jews i couldn't find out where they go how they were taking i don't know till today what happened with them i know that they were gone that's all but my father my mother and my sisters they existed still were there they were working in this my mother in the world but the moment when they took her they said this matter of fact they put right right side left side right side and they put my mother and my little sister on the left and that was the end and i knew that i will never see them somehow my my my thoughts were that they will go that they will they are gone i didn't have what to stay in the ghetto in this shop where my husband work and that was my decision and his decision and he helped me a great deal was my decision to go and the same way he also prepared possibility being me there for him in case he will have to live because everybody knew that there will be an end of it too so coming back to this mrs mayevska because i cannot tell you anymore from the ghetto anymore did you see your mother and your sister and your father being taken away i saw my mother taking away with my sister and that was the end of my my life even then i know that i lost everything my father was taking away from the apartment when he was hiding because he was hiding in the ghetto my when they took my mother and my my sister my husband went to tell this to my father and he almost committed suicide but the following the day he was taken the whole area where he was hiding in ghetto was taking to the treblinky and from this moment on i didn't know what happened how many i knew that i have to live that i have for what to live and i want to go on the other side and this is possibility and leon my husband give me the possibility because he make being able to contact gentle people he gave me the connection for me to be on this other side with i had paper prepared and you ever see yourself when you were living on the outside was being hunted what did you ever see yourself or feel that you were being hunted no i never felt that i was hunted i never felt that i was hunted i was very much afraid if i can tell you i was i told you i was never hungry i never called and i never had but i were i was afraid of every moment of my life i was afraid but i was not granted nobody was running after me nobody wanted to do me i was something in me was telling me to move fresh at 28 with this old lady when i was living with for a month or six weeks and it happens that she brought up some people over there they were hysterical and hysterical people i couldn't stand i find out later and quite long ago a letter that one of this girl who was about 15 or 17 years old gestapo came to this apartment where i was hiding and i i just by some some voice who told me to move out walk out that this girl jump from the fifth floor and kill herself gestapo was coming today to this apartment she was jewish with her grand grandmother hiding in the same apartment i was but i i you know that was you know what you see in english bashayat i had this feeling that i have to move there i don't know what what i am thinking today i just said listen there was a strong thing above me which was telling me what to do and what not to do and that's how i religious how religious i was that was my religious i was hearing voices almost i was hiding i told you that i was going out sometimes i have to go out to show that that after all i am not the slave and where to go the first thing was to in my thought was to go to to church i went to church during the day who is going to church you can see three four five ten ten people there was a lot and here i am standing there and i i have this small thing what mr mayevska gave me you know prayer book whatever i never open it by the way i'm sitting here and meditating and here the the priest comes to me child are you hungry would you like something would you want to talk to me i said no i'm not hungry i'm just working for a sick person and i want to and i by the way i will be coming here just will be my day off or hour off i will be here quite often but tell me are you hungry i said no i'm not hungry i'm good i am taking i am good taking care of so this was my place which was really when i came to warsaw after the war that's all the first place i went to it still stayed there i don't know if this place is there but but you know another thing to mrs mayevsky i used to come a doctor very famous doctor who taught me how to make injection i don't know why but he called me up and he said they are natural i would like you to come and see me and i don't you see in my head what he's asking me to come or he find out or he wants to convey to me something i went i didn't want to say no i went and i will give you all the the things what you have to do with mrs my skills he helped me with her quite a lot i came there and his wife i think opened the door when i saw this face i knew by ibrahim go away i didn't like this face i just met her she just opened the door i went there i was maybe 15 minutes he gave me some paper she was jealous she was obviously jealous the lack of look of this woman showed me this and i was afraid of her this was the time when i decided to go away from mrs mayevska for a while because i didn't know what and how and where and then in the meantime they took mrs mayeska with this paper what he gave me he he said that mrs mayevska should go to a hospital for special kind of treatment you know the maria curie skodovska treatment when you put the very strong light on on the on them i have forgot the name how it is in polish english i don't remember at all and you just put heat hits over over the thing and they burn her up terribly she was in terrible pain i was you know this room where they did it was tremendous as big as this and close and she was lying on a bed and the light was going through up i don't remember i just could look through a hole how how it is done and i was with her in the hospital and they gave me a bed in the hospital i slept with her in hospital this was one in a million somehow i got it i slept in the hospital and this was the safest place in the whole in the whole warsaw because german never went to hospital one thing they never checked in the meantime i got sick i got i don't know how it's in english boil here boil there everywhere in my especially my hands terrible pain i didn't know what to do i went to the doctor's office here i see four doctors loved me believe me i didn't speak with them but i knew that they are jews and they were so nice to me you have no idea they didn't talk to me about this and who i am why i have no question but they were so close to me they they took care of me and they'd find out with whom i am working they used to bring oranges this time oranges was something very unique to mrs mayevska and to me because they thought that maybe mrs maievska also jewish and i stayed there with her about ten days or something and they after 10 days every second day or every third day i don't remember she has this this treatment i went back but then i said to her mrs mayevska i think that i have to leave you and live with i forgot the name of the housekeeper because she knew that she is dying for it and i knew that if she will die this woman who was so nice will try to get rid of me because she thought that maybe all the beautiful clothes all the richness was this woman had she was a wife of a very high officer polish officer bef when we came when i said goodbye to her she gave me a little note i still have it by the way but i cannot maybe just sometimes i will show him with the address of her sister in ohio new york and she told me i am jewish and my husband was a gentile before i say goodbye to her like somebody was i said now i know that girl is above me did you ever see your husband again no no no he was in the in the camp as he was taking to the camp um you know you called this camp when all the um officers but not jewish or he was how he called this now camp for for um for soldier for officers in in but german didn't touch them there was you know this was hats cast off they were according to the law they couldn't kill them or so forth i don't know what happened with his with his uh with her husband and i didn't find out about it and your own husband what your own husband leon yes did you ever see your husband again i saw him once i got very after leaving her i went to another place which was recommended by leon's friend on marcia koskas who belonged to to a high society baronova you know nova is like uh like very high level society and i had my own room over there but they were about six or seven people living over there and i think that all they all were jews hiding also and i i went to this after saying goodbye to mrs maievska i went to there that was not far away because that was all also very very beautiful neighborhood in warsaw on fifth floor and i got very sick over there i got such a cramp that i was thinking that i am dying i couldn't re move my bow and it was i still remember and leon had connection with with a gentile woman who was working in the shop while he was working and through her i sent a note to leon leon if you want to see me still alive please and help me and he came really risk his life he came to see me i was i don't i don't remember but i think that i was out and there was a doctor in the same building and both mrs mrs baronova was on the top floor i think on the fifth or third floor there was a doctor he went to this doctor he looked you know when he put his glasses and his german is perfect he went there and he went down and he said there is an emergency in mrs in baronova home and will you be so kind and come and help in the meantime he saw the surroundings all german people but leon speak very good german so he probably spoke he's also many german he spoke german to this so they didn't pay any attention to his look or whatever the doctor came somehow again some he knew that there is something wrong that that i have that i am hearing so many people in my escalators nothing doesn't click he said right away to hospital and they took me to hospital and the hospital as i told you was the the safest place so i said when i was already there they did everything what what this time could be done and in the meantime leon went back to the to the ghetto and he told this because some of the people and i think that carl schulz the one the head of this this factory knew that i am i'm on the other side he he was the one first who who told him why don't you send your wife out and he i don't i don't know for sure he told um that i was very sick and i have something he said send right away this this um prescription of prescription pills this will help her that's his box burger kissing again that's his german pills which i was taking still today and he tell her to take this as many as she she could and you will see that following today she will be all right i don't know i think that rihanna had this connection with leon in in ghetto and and in the polish side brought me these pills to the to the hospital i don't know how many pills i took i think maybe five ten may maybe who knows what and you know in about half an hour i went to the toilet and everything came out almost didn't fall i was can you imagine for for who knows how how many days and it and i became healthy now but i look like this and i had to stay another two days in the hospital just to or or one day but after this happened i was already revealed you know completely completely held hell and then leon had on the other side where he when he was working in the in the shop he had shop on the other side in on the side where there is no no ghetto out of ghetto he built for himself some kind of hiding place in case something happened he should be able because he always had a permit to go on the other side and he built a little hiding place and after i got better he sent yanka to pick me up and to take me to this hiding place nearby his place where he work and i stayed there one night and the following night this the ghetto that fighting get us started they're not not no not yet started but they were taking already the people who were working took concentration camp leon was with me which helped him because if he would be there he will be killed because the people who was head off of the of this like there was at 12 people who were ahead of this carol schulz business were killed and they were calling for leon but leon was with me so he was saved because of it i couldn't walk but i remember this was the beginning of spring still very cold this was i think beginning or end of april or something like that i had still my beautiful coat which i was wearing was very beautiful cold he dressed me up he said anya go slowly and go to shaneevsky with a very good friend who was living not far from this place i i got up how i got to mr shanovsky i don't remember i don't know i know only that i was holding i was holding you know slowly holding the you know the place where i could hold myself with my head up and i got there when i came here they said that somebody they didn't even recognize me i was shaking they gave me water and quiet me down and he said don't worry we will take care of you and relax what what happened after this i don't remember i know that i went there i don't know if the same day or the following day or how i get back to mrs mayevska to mrs mayes i don't remember no back to to this masjarkovska stodd veges one marciakovska 125 i don't remember you know when i'm talking now i don't remember if i went there or i went to mrs mayeska on shania koska no no no i didn't go to my missus i cannot even remember but that is not important did your husband stay no i went to mrs right now i remember i went to mrs maievska to chernakovska street she was still sick and alive and that's where where ghettos started to burn i remember that's why i remind myself that i went to her because i was standing at the at the window and so already the flame of ghetto yes i stayed with her for a few days she was she was having some news better news that i get from from ghetto i don't know from where and i stay over there till [Music] till was already no juice in the place that was leon work at the carol and he had to he was in the hiding place where he hired me when i was getting out from hospital and this was some luck from god also that he was that that was the moment when i got sick and he was there because otherwise he would be killed and and he stay over there he never went back to together and and he left this place to also prepare somewhere on alberta on the other side not in ghetto and he went to to uh because in the meantime he made a connection with engineer julian ambrose who was responsible very much a part of our life he was the one who built our our hiding place on the side of of the site of polish or the polish side the apartment was hiding places and our hiding places weren't ready yet so he he went to alberta one which was once his brother had was lived over there and had his business this apartment house was completely destroyed the only the only basement and first floor was not destroyed and the superintendent of this house knew leon very well because he knew his brother when he was having having the business over there and he said you have to help me and whatever i will you will wish i will give you what happened to you and to leon after the warsaw ghetto was destroyed as as i i told you that on alberta he was he was hiding there by this by this superintendent of the house i was with him it was terrible sight to see him the way how he was hiding that was completely different this house destroyed during the the war and completely just the skeleton and the superintendent apartment was in the basement and the flat first floor but the whole house apartment house was like skeleton and he put him on this on the i i don't even know how to explain to you he was going to his place on the line hanging somewhere on the on the balcony because the balcony was still standing after this house was destroyed was called he was covered with with three things like that this this man who helped him put up on him because i didn't have anything to cover him he probably find something to cover him because to sleep over there he was sleeping standing it was something i cannot even explain to him but i am sure he will and he was doing a bim birth you know there's some kind of of drink very uh similar to vodka or what and he was giving him to warm him up less of of drink he never drank in his life but that was the only time we i didn't want to come too often there i couldn't and he didn't let me let me come because this would be already movement of of this happened to be destroyed out nobody was coming and here suddenly they they come a woman coming this would be a little suspicious so i didn't come i just knew that he will be there till the apartment will be ready ocean toxicity 25 where uh engineer ambrose ambrose is prepared for us which will be just few days so in the meantime i was going there with my with my housekeeper who during this time of hiding on the on the side of gentile i she was my my shining star he helped he helped me and my husband the most fantastically way she really gave her life to help us so we were preparing because was already everything prepared but not yet ready to get into it had to be clean or whatever i don't remember what was was just few days so he stay in this place i don't believe that he stays more than five days i went with dunya which was this housekeeper who helped us during the whole time of fighting in in warsaw on the on the gentile side and we straighten up the house and the following day or two days later three days later i don't know he called his friends very reliable people very honest people to come to pick him up from this place where he stay hanging and they came very nicely dressed they brought something for leon something to er and he's yeah he was young and handsome thin like this and was i don't know they dressed him up and they brought him to shintokushiskan pinch i was there already waiting for him and just from this moment on it started that we were hiding together leon and anya hiding together in a apartment which was nobody should live there there was just somebody who doesn't live because we were there but nobody knew that we are there only the the engineer amrojevis who built for us this apartment was tremendous apartment and one wall was divided and there was small entrance to it some shelves was with books he put books from his home and that and i don't know how you open i don't remember because very seldom we were sitting there and there was a room without any window as without any door or something like and this place which was very narrow just for people to to stand there or to maybe to say it i don't even remember this and we were hiding there but we weren't inside this is the the hiding place was just he said if instead if somebody would snag the door but because this place was finished but the the superintendent of this house knew that this place is empty nobody lives there so we we first of all we have to wear first of all we we have to wear shoes that nobody would feel that somebody is walking because under underneath maybe i messed up underneath there were um there was a store or whatever was it that if we would walk and and somebody would feel that somebody's working that will be already some suspicious and since everybody knew that that is empty apartment whatever it is it was we we had water dough and toilet in this place but this could be only used when these people close the the shop or whatever store i don't even know what kind of store they have underneath and we had bed over there very narrow bed we sleep together and in the other part of the house which had a window there was a couch like broad i don't know who brought it but leon probably told somebody to bring the couch and he will remember and about this place only our friend who built this mr julian ambrose ambrose vishnu dunya who brought us food and i don't know anybody who knew also about that place we were staying there not moving sitting all the time and all the day and in the evening we somehow could move in the meantime i used to go out because i remember i i turned my my hair for blunt which was the greatest mistake in my life and i had to remove it or to make blunt again so i had to go to the beauty parlor and i wanted to to come back to my natural look and i remember when he was doing it he said to me you know i i said my name is yanina kuchinska but that was my you know yanezhko he liked me also very nice man how i how i met the moment when i met him he said to me you know you are very familiar to me so i was thinking he will tell me you look like a jewish he said to me um you know now when i take away this plant you look like a little jewish girl i started to laugh way back this was like a love for for a frightened human being but somehow he was he was nice too he said i think that you look more natural something like that and i walk out as i walk out i see a sign library i i don't know i open the library whom do i see my friend from my school she was a little older than me she finished school two years she was working there libra librarian when we saw each other like somebody would put a stone upon her and upon me we saw each other we didn't say a word but we understand each other and she said to me by the way what is your name could i introduce myself i am i don't remember how she her name naturally changed and i said my name is kuchinska oh this is aninakuchiska would you like to to belong to my library i work here and my boyfriend is coming every evening to pick me up but anytime you want books somehow we can arrange i heard this i said gosh i have books only to read also but how i am going to get this book how i'm going to listen i came home and i said to leon leon you wouldn't believe god sent me marisha from my school and she's a librarian and i am going to have books our hair was standing up how to get the book and in this moment dunya our housekeeper was with us i said dunya you will be the one who will come to her and in the back you will bring us books listen a week we were reading seven books three legendary then and then then exchange we were reading books i never in my life in my life till today read so many books like this time because that's what we were sitting concentrating on books nobody talks to each other and i don't not ever because she was giving us about if i'm not mistaken i don't want to lie few books together so when i finish leon had that that's how we will change so we were we were doing something we were relocating ourselves with the books this was gift from god and dunya was and through dunya she give a little note where she lives who is her boyfriend a gentile and she is living with him and she is living completely like openly because she works even and we got very very close to each other in the meantime there were time that we had to move and dunya was the one who are bringing us [Music] food but right after leon moved in his mother came to us because he they were he transferred her from from the shop to this place where he was having in this hiding place but this this part i cannot tell you because i wasn't present then leon will tell you his mother was brought to us by some friends i don't remember whom and she stayed with us so three of us we are staying there the moment when my my my no excuse me my mother was taking to a gentle family from from from the from ghetto when when leon took her from ghetto she had already prepared some place in a polish family very nice family took our my mother-in-law to their home and as i remember she was very shortly then very very short there maybe a week or ten days because she got very sick suddenly she came sick to us she was yellow she was completely yellow and she developed the most striking tragic sickness that there was no help whatsoever and we couldn't even call for for doctor but beside this she was in terrible pain and she had to she couldn't even scream she was with us very short and she was sitting with us in this room and in the evening she slept in the other room where there was the couch how this couch came and why it came ask me i don't remember i don't know everything was was something done like like somebody was was doing for us so she was having her own room over there but she never could get before the dark when when the people from downstairs she was with us very shortly how long did you remain in hiding in warsaw altogether from that time on after your mother-in-law passed away you know our you know that but this this story you must hear because when she she was so sick that finally this regina ambrose which built for us this place he couldn't stand it himself he was a very good person he said i have to call a doctor maybe he can help her he cut she was yellow no i don't see any yellow here something through touchka you know what this is liver some he came he looked at her he said she is dying already the doctor but this man um as a doctor doctor sent by by their underwear polish organization akka what what did that stand for uh um army cryova this was under polish underground which was built just after after the war and mr amrojevic was was officer in this in this army i mean this army cryoba he was very very famous and they were people who wouldn't dare to kill other people especially jews or something they killed their responsibility was to kill german but but no partly but that is not story to tell anyhow um and he he left and about two days later she passed away she passed away and now is the time you have to you have to bury her how to bury her what to do about this you cannot keep the that person there this was the most tragic moment of our life but engineer helped us mr ambrose you see this this place was built by the underground by his people who thought that this is a place where the well the um how you call these arms are hitting uh hide how and so the people whom he sent were the people from from the organization and they said that the army they didn't know that we are hiding them they knew only that that that all kind of instrument you know like like um revolvers or organs or are hiding there and he said to these people listen tomorrow we have to to bring the hiding things to the box and very early in the morning you have to come and transfer this i will tell you where so when they came we put already his mother to this box you know long box and we put her with dress her put her even with cross in her this because she had to be buried in a polish cemetery their jewish cemetery didn't exist we dress her and put her something he never forget this i had to do it they all couldn't when she passed away he painted on top of everything i put her across this this uh box and the following day or they came or the evening i i think that the evening of the evening they came and they took her but were to bury her then leon remind himself but that's his story really for leon to tell because he he knows more details he has some connection with a person who was um owner of of a home where when you accept that people how you call this in english funeral home funeral home right maievsky humeral home that's right and how he get that i don't remember he will tell you this and she was gone and you can imagine he didn't she back we couldn't you couldn't in many ways we were glad because we couldn't we couldn't help this woman at all there was no way to help her we were just staying by ourselves and we were staying there quite a long time then somebody told mr ambrose that mr abrahamish somebody is in this in this apartment so he came running to us he said you have to move to another apartment because there were already apartments ready for us we had three apartments the four apartments five apartments this one what i am talking about uh um [Music] i forgot the name of the other one then another one in sventoska in the same house on the fifth floor and copernicus iv so how many whatever it is and when when he told us this we move move ourselves in the evening he came with the roshika you know what is the rush coming this is like there was no cars in in poland even before the war there was few cars you you was horses and we went to the other apartment which was on like what forgot the name on the fifth floor also made from this uh bombed or unfinished home a little place but more more elaborate place but more easy to find out about it do you understand that the the the walls were very thin that we we couldn't talk to each other we couldn't use water it was much more difficult than the one the first one where we were hiding and we stayed there just like figures we couldn't move and in the meantime next to our apartment there was another apartment and we heard movement over there and leon had something you know to hear and what he heard he said anya we have to vaivra run away from them this is very dangerous place the rest i won't tell you leon will tell you because that was something very unique what he had discussion was with mr abrahamic we were there very shortly too maybe six or seven weeks and we went back to shunter 25 where we were originally hiding to the same building but on fifth fifth floor and there was almost rebuilt like like nobody would live there and engineering made a little office that was a big apartment one was ours a big room also was a little hiding place and his and two entrances from kitchen and from different very elegant ones very elegant apartment house and in this in front he has his office and since he was the builder he used to come quite often to and give us all the information though when we were hiding in the first for the on the main floor in on chat 25 he also gave us a radio we knew everything was going on in the world we had radio which was a gift also from god and we were delivering our news to the underground polish underground the polish army we had the first leon speak perfect german and and he told me this i wrote in polish and i delivered to him and we moved back to to this was already the end of the war was approaching already we we were giving the most fantastic news to the underground because leon knew so well german that he already even felt when the descent was will be and where and how he he was just great in this respect he he put his mind into it in such that almost like like he had a vision when this end will end and he was giving and since engineering was coming quite often to us we were giving the news to him and he was very happy about that but then suddenly the uprising also gift from god uprising of of warsaw of polish army started to to fight against german and the bomb started to follow and and again like the war new war paul not against jews but on abundance appraisers polish and our and they first of all they were bombing the highest apartment house in warsaw a prudential house which was 13th floor tall can you imagine and this was the tallest apartment in in warsaw we were talking about the polish uprising yes so we naturally when they started to bomb warsaw not looking for jews anymore but looking for for polish up appraisers for for for polish people we were hiding since we have just next next door to us the highest building and the bombs were falling we went to the basement of this hiding people the hiding house and we were hiding there like any other human being they didn't ask jews not jews but everybody was alleg-like and naturally we were afraid but then we didn't expect that anybody can now do something wrong even if they will find out that we are used to to do some harm they were in terrible problem also and we are sitting there and here next to us said the most fantastic man we ever met in our life and we got very close to him he was caught in the uprising he was visiting his uh his ex-wife and his children on synthox he himself was living outskirt of warsaw and we were talking and we got very close why what i don't know why he likes right away leon he likes right away me and vice versa he happens to be a lawyer divorce lawyer and i think that the boss i think that he was lawyer all year round you know this way extremely bright and we got close to each other very much we didn't tell him yet that we are jews and but he started to tell his story that and he was in this with his wife and he it was his two children whom he visited and that's happened probably they were leaving some place very nearby and he was when the wife was moving somewhere she was telling that that is not my wife anymore i have a sweetheart and all kind of intimate things and we became very very close then they they bombed so hardly this part of um of warsaw that we had to run away but we had also prepared another apartment built by by nasa our our engineer ambroshevich on on copernicus 34 copenhagen iv and this was very nice but a very tiny apartment if i would tell you this apartment on the fifth floor up without elevator but the elevator was builder but never used because it was not not finnish apartment house which belonged to very rich jewish owner who who left for america by the way and and our engineer i would call him always also engineer find out about that and build for us an apartment on the top which was not which was not finished this apartment house was not finished to begin with you know there were some apartment in this building which was which was just like skeleton may i ask you a question yes what monies did you live on leon had a lot of money his own he was a very rich he was one of the richest chew in warsaw he had his own money and then did he have money that was hidden away when he was in the did he have money that was hidden away that's that's his story what he will tell you very important sorry what he will tell you and so i don't want to mix into it i know that i never had money in my pocket very little because i didn't go out so i didn't need it but that's that's he will tell you about it so and if this apartment is still in existence stay on copernicus iv and there is a plate on front of this house that here there were two three people three people they put mother but mother wasn't there anymore leon and i was hiding there this apartment was a quarter of this room but this is this apartment was a closet which he changed no a bathroom which he changed to a closet where we were hiding with a built-in um shaft i don't know what what it's like furniture and how to get there very seldom a very few people would even dream that something like exists genius and a toilet no the toilet wasn't uh wasn't there because toilet was in this room what he makes from it the uh this the hiding place and a little kitchen like like like just to move in there there was uh gas over there and uh stuff like stuff gusto very tiny one one one room one bed could stay and a little shaffer you know but very well done i think that very few people would think that somebody could could hide there naturally we we took right away our um our radio with us and we had also gun all the time when we were hiding we had a gun i never touch it but he did and we i learned by looking how he uses leon you know with a little pencil inside and we were trying we never used it but we had it we took it to this place what else said close what we will we were what we had when we ran away from from this by the way in the meantime our apartment when we were hiding on the fifth floor was destroyed also we couldn't get out anymore to this apartment so we we were already lucky to go there and we took this friend of ours to our home how how he divide himself with his with his wife ex-wife and children i don't remember i don't know but he came to our place and we spent the whole time together why i mean mentioned this to you because this will be very important by part in leon discussion about about this person over there i don't know somehow everybody i wasn't afraid anymore of anybody because everybody was frightening themselves we didn't know what tomorrow will bring and well where the polish army was around us there were a lot of anti-semitism there they were people there was the only i didn't um felt but leon did because they wanted they wanted to harm here but that is also his story very important story what he will tell we were there till the seventh of september we left because this part already was occupied again by german and the german came and said our routes but we went already as a gentile who would believe that and they took us to the station station where they supposed to take all the refugees from the uprising somewhere i don't know to camps who knows where i know only that we took us very very very early in the morning we were walking many kilometers there till we got into the railroad and we didn't know what is going to happen to us we knew that we are not going to stay here that they will transfer what but where we didn't know they said that part of the people polish people were sent to auschwitz also and to other camps we knew only not so much me but leon knew that he is not going to this wherever they want to take him but they transport us to the train and women well first and then men there's also a fragment of his story which is extremely important i won't tell you about that i want him to tell you and leon very smart man and very fast he understood that i will be the divine not divided divided separated separated from from him he picked up an old lady took her on his heart and went to the to the vagon where were standing to pick up all the women and nobody stopped him because he was holding this woman and we went to the same um vegan where um to the same train leon was the only man among all the women and on the first station it stopped the train stopped why i don't know and some women were were walking like from red cross to give water to give something to eat for the for the people from from the uprising and on the next stop again the train stop and leon said i am going out will you go out and we jump from the train how i was afraid he said i am going i went after him and the train went up we were waiting hiding under a stool almost on the station where where the train stopped and the train went we were lucky that gestapo wasn't there but the old you know the old soldier german soldier they didn't care they they maybe didn't even believe in in hitler ideas we were safe here where we are without anything just a little package i don't even yes i had a little package there with me i don't know why i took it and how an empty place we are we don't know where we are we don't see any people we were sitting down tired and leon didn't shave for many many days and somehow i have a machine you know to shave i never hold this in my life and i was trying to shave his hair not not so much his face but his hair and he was screaming that i am tearing his hair i said leon that's my first job in this profession i i don't know how to do it he said anya they will recognize me right away i said you because i have long i did somehow horrible thing but i did it and then it's getting already dark what to do we were hiding from one place to another we were afraid because we look like nebo and in the meantime his memory never left him he remember names and he remembered where and how he was genius really he was genius he remembered that not from from for the place we find out finally the name of the place we stay overnight over there how he get that he will tell you also but um he he remind himself that he knows somebody from his business nearby where the place where we stay is gerardo he said anya we will take pla we will take some he still had money with him uh some uh coach i don't know with uh with horses we will pay him a lot of money he will take us to gerardo and good enough he took us to geraldo leon remembered the the dress and the name of the people we went to these people when they saw us the hair was dandy cup what our jews are doing here and gerardo was not touched by by the war i mean not destroy everything was in its place but the german was there and he welcomed us very nice people charming and lovely people and when they saw us probably the hair were standing up what to do was the jews we are in terrible mess now and the the word the the germ the russian was going already moving he said i cannot keep you here i would be more than happy to help you but i cannot help you because something happened to my son he was shot as a pilot by the german and they are looking for him if he is dead or he is he is alive so but don't worry you sleep over and tomorrow morning a woman who is bringing milk to us every will take you to this to this little village where she lives far away and you have to go through through um to through um how you call this i'm already tired it's like you know through a certain kind of where where the german are not less in polish you know oh my god what is last in in in english and she will maybe she will help you we went there in the morning very early and she said you know i can i know that they are a lot she didn't know that we are jews that they are a lot of people refugees from warsaw uprising and i will try to help you and she give us she accepted us in their home in a little shot forest there is a forest and german was afraid of forest because they were known already that they are underground people and they are living in the furnace and they are killing just like this so when he told us that we are going through through forest we knew that the german won't go there that there will be very dangerous for german to go through forests to this little village we stay in this village they give us a little small shack there was no window there was no floor there was only um kitchen you know with like you put the you know you put water under and very very simple kitchen so we knew that we can put fire and we won't be called because almost open there was a big [Music] the fight they were not together you know was built like like somebody who doesn't know how to build but we were happy to find out they give us something to cover ourselves and we slept on on on desk very very uncomfortable but for us this was a palace we knew that to this place somebody will have to tell them that somebody is hiding and they wouldn't even come to look for us because they were afraid it was already was almost the end of we came there in in september i would say 10 11 of september how long were you there we were there till january the 10th i i mean january the the first um the the russian already came to this to this town to geraldo into this town so we were shortly but somehow we went through september october november december january five months we were there and there is also a gaucher vigilia novagoroku it is new year and christmas and you have to pray and you have to go to and we are not going we are jews how to do it and they assemble all the people from the village my gosh we went through how to what to do how to learn how to i knew a little bit i had i was reading the the the polish bible just to know where i am in case but leon didn't know and somehow you know this look his look was a little suspicious there was there were two women two daughters of salties i don't know how what is salt is in in english the one who take care of the of the village and they are the intelligent intelligent intelligence you know the the polishing against that they knew how to write how to talk and how to discuss and these two women also was bright women and they were suspicious i think that well but they didn't touch us they didn't ask questions and as long as we were there they were quite quite nice to us leon used to get newspaper german newspaper from gerardo which was a big city a city were well known in in poland and he got german newspaper through this friend of his in in gerardov and i don't know how he got it i think through this woman who will bring in the milk or whatever she asked the minister for that his name this friends in geraldo leon will remember this to tell you and leon knew the news from the german newspaper he used to come he's he's a philosopher i call him philosopher my husband and he was telling us maybe 10 people coming around him and listen to the story of war what was going on on the front and they respected him so very much somehow we went through this through this holidays but that was something you will never believe what that this what what you have to think i still remember because i was taught by mrs mayevska certain thing the song the the not so much the word of the song by the the melody of the song were you um eventually liberated there leon we were liberated then the the the 10th of january the some kind of also leon will remember i don't remember some russian already come and settled into this little village and came to visit volnevsky's that's the name where we were hiding i tell you something this was people who couldn't read who couldn't write they spoke polish but i bless them they were so nice to us especially mr von nevich he was so good he loved me like his own daughter maybe even more because they have two daughters and he loved me more than his daughter and she was a little jealous of me they didn't know if we are used or not you know our polish was so perfect and our behavior was so powerful oh and leon speak german and he even polish his polishes always too and he's telling the story the time when we were there was i don't know how long we were there but about two months to september october november we were there quite a lot but you know what this was one of the best part of my my story i felt so safe over there with those people who couldn't cook who didn't know what is going on in this world who were completely from the the the darkest people how they existed when god knows they knew that if if the sun is lower that this rain is going to be and this has to be this and that just just by it by believing or who knows what but they were miscellaneous how [Music] how poor he was in in his in his not behavior behavior was magnificent he was very smart very intelligent person he was in the war with russia in 1912 something like that he told her story and somehow as as much as we were afraid we had some feeling that nothing will happen to us so this is really the end of my my story by hiding because i was staying there when the war ended and then russian came to their home and they were taking telecast that this part of the poland is taken by a russian she said he said i am jewish he introduced himself as a jew they opened this this this two women said he had something he was too intelligent to be one of us something like that the moment when the russian came leon left for warsaw in a snow till here he took i don't know he took from from his friends from gerardov um no forgot again something anyhow he he went for he he went to warsaw and i stayed with those people for about good ten days more than more leon went there and he he settled down he knew that that our apartment then on capernica 4 still stays here he opened our hiding place and he find the radio he find food he finds the the gun everything not even touched the way how we left that way how he find it and he moved into it and we put our cover you know like bedding and after this i i don't know how long i was without him i cannot recall he came and he picked me up and we bought went walking went to warsaw that was only 10 kilometers from gerardov to to warsaw on the way who you know there were a russian uh soldier going through and they pick us up and it took us once to uh empty house where there were still people there but also people who weren't living there but who occupied probably this place we stay overnight there and then we came to warsaw how long did you remain in europe after the war was over um we we were traveling from one place to another in europe you know we when we left finally warsaw we went to czechoslovakia from czechoslovakia we went to um to hungary from hungary we went to romania from romania we we came back to hungary and then from hungary we went to to germany because we find out that from german from germany we can easily get possibilities to go to united states that that already the army the the uh american army are already in munich and this is and they settled down over there they organized unerra and we were so we went back to czechoslovakia in order to come to munich also was very difficult because um you know they were stabbing people on the on them you know on their way of crossing the the line from from as czechoslovakia to to germany it was difficult but finally people were people were looking like this and we arrived to munich and in munich we we were also very comfortable because after a few days we got this little house which was once occupied with um by german and was empty and all the jewish refugees moved into its new freyman and we were in new freyman from from december 1945 and for 19 1945 till 1944 19 19 we were we we left wait a minute around i know that we were celebrating new year if 1940 1945 i think 1945 or not night or 1940 1945 right in munich and our home was just near yonera just the building of union nice matter of fact when when general eisenhower came we were there and we saw him how he came and this was day of our life we were liberated and we were free and people were starting new new life over there and there was lovely old jews in this in this new freyman we met quite a lot of people survivors and but we weren't too long there we were one of the of the first to move out from there we find out we got some possibility to go to bremenhaven from where all the people were going to united states was there ever any thought of trying to reach palestine was there ever any thought or discussion of going to palestine you know there were many idea that where to go but the preference were to go to america especially when we we saw general eisenhower coming and welcome our house it was something very unique you know american general coming to the camp and i think that i had even pictures somewhere but i don't remember where the picture was gone but i know that i had anyhow we and i remember just by by coincidence i was already able to to to make a connection with my uncle if in in the united states and one of my cousins was there in the army and they probably give him my address in our address in munich and he came to visit us here beautiful handsome american soldier is coming to visit anya and leon i couldn't speak with him i couldn't we were sitting he came about seven o'clock in the evening we were talking to each other till morning he was sitting with me and how i spoke with him and how will i converse with him and how i got to know him one god knows i couldn't speak english but he was there and later on when we came to the united states i met him and we were laughing how we talk by not talking to each other it was you know to see the people in unreal how they were taking care of of the refugees the way how they were caring about us we didn't even think about other place to stay and there was opportunity to stay in germany there and many people didn't move from germany and they stayed for two three years after they were liberated we just wanted to go to america and as a matter of fact we came to america in with the second boat which took us to the united states but do you remember the name of the boat yes mariner perch and as a matter of fact we were staying in the camp before going to to the you know united states that was also american camp in bremenhaven for for about months or a few months because there was a strike in the among this shipment or whatever what was it and we met quite a lot of people and friends and we went there and with i was i tell you something i cannot tell you about my my passing the ocean because i was the sickest i was known on the boat the sickest person on the on the boat so it's almost like i pay for my survivor on the ocean of this atlantic ocean we came we were welcomed with the open hands with the open hearts i remember this woman who came and she didn't know what to do with us i remember that children without parents came without any anybody to turn to and they were just hacked and taken care of in such a way that only in the story you can tell my aunt and my uncle were waiting and his cousin were waiting on the be and what is the on the port it takes quite a long time because they they complained tremendously about this because they were waiting and waiting and somehow the the boat didn't come and finally they took us to the to the hotel which was on broadway 103rd street marseille hotel marseilles and they give us apartment and money and i remember walking out from from this hotel on broadway on the third street and i saw strawberry in winter time i never forget the strawberry in my life how this strawberry can can be in the winter time leon already was busy with himself he will already talk and and and make connection and i said gosh we are free people it is something outstanding something unbelievable we didn't know where we were going to to live what we are going to do but we were very happy did you receive any assistance from any organizations here yes i think that united you shapiro were there starting their unerra and that's you know right and they help us they are they give us right away money for for a week to live for but leon already started his business he was unbelievable unbelievable this way so much power and so much energy like like nobody i know but i remember one thing which i will never forget i had the rest of his uncle on 57th street and 6th avenue they had a little shop and i wanted to visit him and leon said you are on your own you have to find your own way and they said that the subway is the easiest way to get there i didn't know what subway is but i went to subway and i see a train on this side running on this side i don't know to go there up down downtown what is up down downtown i didn't know but i have this address and like idiot i went to a policeman i knew that he cannot speak polish i don't speak english how he will explain me where to go i just show him the address he said from this you will take the train somehow he communicated with me because he told me how many stations i have to make to get from 103rd street to 57th street and then and then i said and then you will find he said you will find like me and you show this and you get and you get further i just couldn't believe that somebody could be so kind and so nice because that was the time already where people the american soldier used to come back from from the that was after the war already and i really counted this station i went on 57th street and then where i am i exit here exit there where to go i went again to the policeman i showed him the address he took me there and took me to our ho to his uncle he opened when he opened the door to get me he said you just came with a policeman you came just to america was a policeman so he explained to him what was it i thought that i will never forget this because this was the most unique story the story of my first days almost in in america and you know the continuation of my story i believe that my husband will sell much better because he was the one behind all the success what we we really had in the united states the success was such that very very there are very few people had we had we were extremely lucky and and not because of me but probably because of leon because he had extreme very good connection with america and he has relatives here though i had my my relative here but they were somehow not as warm as his family i have to admit what was the greatest readjustment for you living in the united states i think that the language was you see i could i could be among any kind of people but language was the most important part of of being in a strange country and this i [Music] i didn't have i don't know how this language really came to me how how how was it i had a lot of friends who spoke polish and we were very much um together and very close we were in the beginning we were living on in bronx in very bad neighborhoods i didn't know what neighborhood is to begin with but my aunt said oh in such a neighborhood you later i said my goodness a neighborhood we were living leaving five floor up i thought that that is the the palace what i am living the freedom the the the people how they they had trying to help us in every way when i went to shop for food which we were living on fox's 980 fox street in bronx and there were many jewish stores since i i don't speak jewish was much much more difficult for me to converse with people because all the stores were jewish and they spoke jewish so i will show that's i want this i want and this and i i really don't remember hardship when when is that were your friends also refugees yeah not not we are very close with this but they all speak some of them finish the education some of them left in new york city to other to other cities but we are very close the people with whom we came we are very close still today but had they also been in europe were they also refugees yes absolutely they are all refugees but you know i would say most of most of them are well well off but we really make a big career in the united states and in a very short time what was your husband's business sewing machine and he was connected before the war with united states of america with whole the world and he was traveling all over the europe for him was much easier to get to get involved with businesses and with people and he spoke perfect jewish and perfect german so also helped him a great deal and i was just trying to learn english and my dream was just if i remember they asked me what i would like the most i said to read newspaper to know what is going on in the world and to to speak english that was my greatest desire where i live what i live where i do wasn't so important but the language and i try my best and i could do much better that's what sure i bought was your husband's uh business success here a continuation of his business in europe you're right absolutely and that was because of this was much easier for him to get to the point where he when he went to but the or offshore his business in poland and the connection was very important did you ever have children yes i had i had children you see i was already this was 1947 when we came to this country it was seven years already married my greatest desire was to have children and in this apartment on on fox street in 980 factory i got pregnant and this was the happiest day of my life and but my daughter was born there in bronx but she was about three months old when we moved to in the meantime you will find out that a new new houses are built in long island in forest hills and he he put you know i don't know he put some money to get a certain opportunity department was was finished when my daughter was then three months or yes about three months old we left blanks and what was the name of that child barbara did you have any other children yes i had another daughter but my other daughter passed away when did you tell your your daughters that you were a survivor when did you share your experiences with your children i think that they knew since i could could speak to them english they knew that there is something different that the parents are a little different than other parents first of all our language show and then we were surrounded in the new apartment in forest hills with american people who were very close though we were so-called refugees we were very much liked and we knew that our english wasn't perfect they were very close friends of ours and we we were together almost all the time and one introduced the other and so the number of our friends grew up as we grew up in the united states and it was the most fantastic thing because but this thanks to my husband i wasn't i'm could i might help him in certain way because i i give a free hand to him to do whatever he wanted and the most important part of this was he was traveling a lot he was travelling to to europe he was travelling to to to palestine then to see his brother who who survived but mostly to to make connection in europe and his business grew up like like mushroom after rain and i was just helping him that i never i can say this with my hands of on my heart i never interfere with his business because many many many times i was by myself with my children and he was traveling and those time traveling by plane was very dangerous but thank god that was always with us have you and your husband during your lifetime been involved in any organizations related to the holocaust yes we were very much into holocaust organization the moment when one was created we were one of the first united jewish appeal was the most important part of our because we were really helped by by this organization now zionist organization was very close to us also we were very close with israel not israel denver palestine his brother was there we were doing a lot for we added a lot to the creation of of of state of israel the moment when the state of israel was created my husband helped with the greatest enjoyment and the greatest thing whatever he could do he helped naturally we belong the moment we we were settled already in in the forest hills we belong to pharisees jewish center the minute when we moved there and our rabbi was our rabbi with whom we will we will never forget because he was really our our friend he doesn't help us monetize but with idea and something very unique person and and then we were there in farthest hills we were not too long and we moved to great neck and again in great neck we also the first stop step hours was to belong to synagogue not orthodox synagogue but conservative synagogue we belong and what else the friends we would met were just great and very helpful in many ways we got quite a lot of people were still in touch with and and then we moved to manhattan from from far from great neck and we are here also we belong to in the beginning we belong to conservative synagogue in park avenue synagogue which was also very close with our rabbis we are very close with all the rabbis because they wanted to know their roots they wanted to know the story they were very much interested in in it and then after changes in in this synagogue here that the the rabbis became the women became rabbi some something didn't click with our belief we move to fifth avenue synagogue which we are still in and in what way have you been able to memorialize the holocaust first of all my husband that was his first idea when he made already money he made this yad vashem we almost opened yad vashem in jerusalem he was the first one who who dedicated the money to make you know um i don't know you know the the the the list of survivors there is a special place where all the survivors when they arrive they put their pets and their names and so forth and then he was he match um what is his name and no i'm already losing myself oh rapaport rappaport and he got very very very close with him and his dream was and he's the remorse to build something in the adversary and since he already built the the the original in warsaw he make the copy of this this monument in the in yad vashem and leon dedicated it and this was something also which which i will never forget because it was really dedication of something very special and he was very much close with this organization and then it started to be more commercial so he left would you please tell me what were the names of the two sculptures that you commissioned for yad bashem for making that report the first the first sculpture is i don't know how you call this sculpture i know only the second one with i can't even remember how he called it there is i think uh mentioned in the book of of his i i cannot say something which i don't remember what was that one one one is you know the head of uprising there was this very famous young fellow who whose name also came just disappeared from my you know i'm so excited that that the names aren't not coming easily for me now in this moment and um it's matter of fact that this man who was the head of the survivor uprising in warsaw was i didn't know him personally but he finished school a year in in gymnasium or a year before me and and this was a he was a hero without anything he started to fight a german do you know what was the the the idea the the strength of even thinking about it and that's you know the the most important person in this sculpture is this person who is and surrounding with all the all the refugees around him and so forth the second one is like people are going out from ghetto to the to away from or away from ghetto to death women with with children and men who restore us and so forth is very touchy also it's called the last march last march that's right exactly were you ever responsible with your husband for commissioning other works from nathan rappaport nobody that was his own gift but did you ever commission nathan rappaport to make other sculptures in the united states as you said never asked for it he never asked for it but if he would i think that i would give part of myself to do it he he already after this that he became very famous he already did things on his own for example this this piece was done not our commission by himself this was commissioned by by us that was also leon's dream to have something in in united states especially in new york where we are staying and it was tremendous pride but for for and i must tell you not only for us but for the jewish community here and we are very proud because this will stay stay with us forever and we were very very close friends what did you commission for new york city would you describe it what what is what motivates what sculpture of nathan rappaport's did you and your husband commission for new york city that's that's that's the one and what is it and this this represent korchak who was the doctor a very well known personality all over the world in warsaw he was he never was married he was a doctor uh medic of medicine and he gathered all people before the war without without parents who had no roof over the head to educate them to become a mensch to become somebody and he took upon himself this without he had probably help because this was the most fantastic organization ever to to have this kind of home where children without parents without paying penny were brought up as a human being as a matter of fact i forgot to mention i had when i was living in the ghetto i took one girl she was nine she was about 10 or 11 years old she came to my home and she was she was living with us till the last moment of when when they were closing or at the ghetto i was already away from ghetto but leon was still in ghetto working with this carol schultz she was with him also there she was the most fantastic girl and she loved us and i love her she lived with us and because it was very difficult then for for them what the doctor [Music] to keep so many children so whoever were able to take some of his children he was very grateful to it and we were the most grateful tool to have um reginka with us i remember her name regina and and he wanted very much to put this because he was almost like a symbol of something without anything without chest from his heart so i was glad that this idea came to his what does the sculpture show like by the way he was he was taking he when ghetto was disco this the symbol he the gestapo wanted he was very famous all over the world he was writing news books about children behavior german gestapo wanted to save him to take him he said no my place is my children and i am going to um with my children and that's what what present when when he left his home with the whole group of children to um to be killed and in the last moment they wanted to say gestapo in german he didn't go he was he he died with korchan died with his children because he believed that he is the father of the children he is not leaving them what is the inscription what is the inscription above this sculpture at park don't remember avenue have to look at you know i wasn't really interested because i personally knew and other people could find out that i don't i really don't remember there is a book written about it and after this interview what i have i will look upon it because it's a shame that i don't even know as best as i remember oh i remember oh i remember when he did it this was also the idea of leon and and and then the sculpture it's dedicated to the memory of the children right very much why did you decide to tell your story this story is because of my daughter i decided to tell the story because i want this story should go further and further never disappear by telling the story to my daughter i am sure that she will tell to her children and her children will tell to their children this shouldn't be forgotten and my daughter since she was she was a child she always wanted to know because i so many times i talk about my family my my home she wanted to know the background of of my youth and i was telling her quite a lot but you know today yesterday before yesterday after there was not um taken as a part as a whole a little here a little there and i wanted to make it whole and then when i find out that there is something somebody who who really take care of the interviews i thought that do it or not to do it but then i have bobby my daughter in front of me i said i am going to do this for my daughter and i am dedicated for girl i like her so much and she wants so much to know about my life that is my gift for her is there anything else that you would like to add i just want to mention the people who help us to get through the hell because there is very very few who remember very few who did it and i was lucky enough to have people whom i still remember the name maybe not too not too close but i wrote down the name in order to remember because they partly responsible for our our survivor and i cannot forget them at least in my interview i can remember their name especially to family ambrosiewicz whose children are still alive thank you very much for this opportunity of hearing your story this afternoon this is my father father my grandfather shayakovsky do you know where this photograph was taken i don't know that's probably very long ago how from where did i got it i even don't remember probably from my aunt from philadelphia or from my sister who was in during the war in mexico i don't remember this is my beloved mother enter yaja kotkovska and my very handsome father abraham hanokotkowski do you know where this photograph was taken his photograph was in warsaw for sure and was given to me probably by my sister from mexico how old are your parents in this picture do you know how old they in this photograph how old are they well my mother when she married my uh my father was about 22 years old my father was a little yes my father was i think 10 years older than my mother that was his second wife this is me i was probably about three or four years old in michelin onion kotkovska this picture is taken somewhere in the country on the right side there's my grandmother my mother's mother um marmalstain and on the left side is my sister marisha kotkowska who are the other people on the photograph the other pictures they are my cousins one is from family kahan one is from schwertak and that's all that's right i remember their names my mother's relative's brother this is myself with my little sister two years old in yousef in 19 in 1938 what is the name of your younger sister dolenka doris dorothy the border this is a red letter of my my father in his uh business on uh nalevke 20 a.h kotkovsky varshava and the address is nalevke 20. what was your father's business cutlery oh this is a picture of my uh school i believe that this was in the third or fourth grade yahood again i cannot recall all the name of my of my girlfriends but i see in the in the in the middle of this is my teacher excuse me i have another no this is not his name can you tell me where you are in this group of children i am i am on them um on that on the bottom on the left side that is me and that is my teacher miss brother my is she wearing the white shirt your teacher is she wearing the white shirt which person is your teacher my teacher she was she was going with with me from my first grade till the 8th grade through all my through all my time in school and on the left side there was another teacher who was teaching us in second second and third grade and on the right side just in the white coat is our school doctor the doctor cl and cline this is my wedding picture um september 29 1940 just leaving my my parents come for the ceremony or i think that after the ceremony i don't remember standing from left to right abraham leon's brother mr to mayor friend then to mayor senior the fourth is leon then is michael uh bash a brother-in-law leon's brother-in-law six figure my cousin and next to her is luba gandhi and next to her is luba husband that's our friend leon's friends then is a living bookkeeper of leon's business and then it's me anya and then is esther uh high bloom felix naiman sesha naiman dorenka kotkovska my sister and some from the leon's office sitting is mrs litwak sarah bush this is leon's sister the third one is my mother yajna kotkovska the fourth is leon's mother lima blue blima yoselzon the fifth is jacob neumann the sixth little son salus and this seven is issac high bloom that's his cousins leon's cousins and the wedding picture is september 29 1940. this is my legitimation in when i left ghetto as a gentile woman and he here i am uh under the name of janina kuchinska i don't think that there is a date of my birthday but this is the document without which you couldn't move in warzone and this is like animation of dunya our saver a lady who was helping us during our hiding she was the one who knew our address all through and she is the one who brought us all this all the news and and the most important food without her i don't know we would probably die from when my mother in in law blima yoselson was dying she she gave it to me maybe minutes before she died this golden watch and i cherish it it's a beautiful very old quite expensive i don't wear it because i am afraid that that i will lose it or i will will disappear somehow because great this is the picture of my family when we first went to poland together to see what happened and tell them story about our our survivor and here is my husband and i the tallest girl is my daughter barbara and next to her is my younger daughter who passed away and above her is her husband of barbara david blumenthal what is the name of your youngest daughter dorothy this is engineer julian abrajevic the creator and the builder of our hiding places in warsaw he was the most fantastic person i ever met he passed away in warsaw after the war and he introduced us to his family and his lovely wife who went probably through hell too they didn't know about us at all we were introduced through him to his this is a train line in treblinka where my parents and and relative of leon was taken to it is symbolics symbolic i couldn't take any other picture because i i was just too excited so i took just the line of the train and that's all and these are a picture of my lovely family standing is david blumenthal husbands of my daughters barbara blumenthal and her three children the the taurus is adam blumenthal gideon blumenthal next to him and in the center shira blumenthal this is a sculpture of a nathan rappaport scorcher which showed children who were um a carjacked with children leaving ghetto warsaw ghetto this sculpture is now above park avenue synagogue and is very important part of our life because of sculpture himself and the picture which represents that even children small children were taking to the most horrible place in treblinka

Channel: Eithan Kotkowski

Views: 16,926

Keywords: Ania Kotkowska, Anya Kotkowska, Ania Jolson, Anya Jolson, Kotkowski, Kotkowska, Jolson, Holocaust, Shoah, Poland, Warsaw, Leon Jolson, Visual History Foundation, New York, Interview, World War II, Yad Vashem, Blumenthal, Holocaust Survivor, Nazi, WWII

Id: 5-PAVHjONfg

Length: 256min 48sec (15408 seconds)

Published: Mon Oct 05 2020