INT: My name is Zepporah Glass. It's spelled Z-E-P-P-O-R-A-H.
Last name Glass, G-L-A-S-S. Today's date is
February 19, 2021. I am currently in San
Francisco, California, and I'm going to be conducting
a remote interview with Mrs. Jeanette Spiegel. Jeanette, could you
clap like this now? Could you clap? JS: Can you hear it? INT: Yeah. JS: Can you hear it? INT: I can hear it. Thank you. Could we start with
you saying your name, the way you use it today,
and spell it, please? JS: Yeah. Jeanette Spiegel. S-P-I-E-G-E-L. Jeanette,
J-E-A-N-E-T-T-E. INT: And what was
your name at birth? JS: Also Jeanette Koenigsberg. INT: And could you
spell that, Koenigsberg? JS: K-O-- umlaut-- N-I-G-S-B-E-R-G. INT: And where were you born? JS: In Vienna. INT: And, and what
was your birth date? JS: It was October 17, 1923. INT: And how old are you today? JS: 97. INT: So I wanted
to ask you first about your immediate family. Could you tell me the
names of your parents? JS: Yes. Osias Koenigsberg, my father. Itta Koenigsberg, my mother, née
Taub, T-A-U-B. That was her-- INT: And did you-- JS: --her maiden name. INT: OK. Thank you. Do you know your grandparents? Did you know them, and
do you know their names? JS: Yes. I did not know my
father's mother. She passed away when he
was in his 20s, I believe. But I did know his father,
Joseph Koenigsberg. And I did know my
mother's parents. [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] They were Israel Taub,
T-A-U-B, and Golda Taub. INT: And what, what
religion was your family? JS: We all was Jewish. INT: And, and do you know if
they were all from Vienna, or were they from other
countries or other areas? JS: Yeah. My mother was from
Galicia, from Poland. INT: And your father? JS: My father was born-- I don't know exactly where,
but he was like two years old when he was in Vienna, so. INT: And what, what did
your father and mother do professionally? Like what was their work? JS: No, my mother
was a housewife. She did not go out to work. But my father-- we had a store. It was furniture and
ladies' accessories. INT: And, and could
you tell me a little bit about what it was like for
you when you were growing up? JS: It was very, very nice. My-- I had parents who loved
me and I had an older sister, and so I was over-spoiled
because I was the little one. [PAUSES FOR 5 SECONDS] It was a happy family. I don't remember
any fights because I don't think there were any
fights between my parents ever. My mother would be
after me, do homework, do this, but my father, never. INT: What was your
older sister's name? JS: Irma. INT: And how much
older was she than you? JS: Three years. INT: So you, you
know, your-- you said your family was Jewish. Did you live in a
Jewish area in Vienna? JS: No. We lived in the ninth
borough, which was-- like in our building, there
were two more Jewish family, and the building had at
least, at least 30 or 40 [PAUSES FOR 6
SECONDS] different-- there was-- I remember
there were one Jewish-- I think [? Klinghoffer. ?]
One was [? Hutner. ?] Then we were-- like our next-door neighbor
was a non-Jewish lady. Her name was Friedl. Her daughter was
married to a Jewish man, but she was not Jewish. And then we had one neighbor
whose son was an SS man. [PAUSES FOR 4 SECONDS] So we were very mixed. INT: Did you, did you
go to public school or a private school? JS: It was a public school,
but it was Catholic because-- [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] it
was not a Catholic school, but Vienna was very Catholic. And when we came in in the
morning, they used to say, our, our Father. And I know it in German. [GERMAN] I know the whole thing. [LAUGHS] So-- INT: Wow. JS: --Vienna was
extremely Catholic. And they became such
terrible Nazis, much more, and they hated the Jews
much more than the German. I always said that if they were
in-- in the concentration camp, if they sent to the German who
was in charge, kill 2,000 Jews, he would kill 2,000. If he was from Vienna, he
would kill 2,000 and 2,000 more and would say,
look what I can do. What do I get the medal for it? That's how I look
at Vienna people. They were very antisemitic,
and yet when, when the-- the armies in '44-- [PAUSES FOR 4 SECONDS] I
think they were in '44. The Russians freed Vienna. Then everybody said,
there were no Nazis ever, when there were so many already
in, in the Nazi thing before, when we still had
Dollfuss and then Schuschnigg as chancellors. INT: Jeanette, I wanted
to ask you some more things about your home life. But first, could I
ask you to sit back, you know, like lean
back a little bit more? Yeah, if that's OK. JS: Yeah, that's-- INT: I'll come a little closer
and I'll talk a little louder, so maybe that'll be better. So let me ask you more
things about, you know, like growing up in Vienna. So first, what, what
language did you speak at home with
your parents-- JS: German. INT: --with your family. You spoke German. Any other languages? JS: No, not with my parents. INT: Yeah. And did you have an
extended family there? Did you have aunts and
uncles and cousins? JS: Yes. My mother had two sisters. There were three. My mother was the middle one. She had an older sister, who was
married to my father's brother. INT: And what was
that sister's name? JS: The name was Koenigsberg
because [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] she was married to
my father's brother. INT: Do you remember her first
name, what her first name was? JS: Dora. INT: Yeah. And, and the other sister,
do you remember her name? JS: Yeah Sabina and Shapiro-- she was married to a man
by the name of Shapiro. INT: And I want
to ask you, also, about your religious observance. Did you go to synagogue? Did you celebrate holidays? Could you talk about that? JS: Well, we observed
the high holy days. We had seats in the temple,
and for Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, my parents
went to the temple. But [PAUSES FOR 5 SECONDS] my
mother lit candles on Friday night, [PAUSES FOR 3
SECONDS] but I don't-- when I went to
school then later on, there was the youth, for the
youth [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] to go to temple on
Saturday afternoon. So I went. I also went to
like Sunday school, where I learned the Jewish
history, starting with Adam and Eve, going all the way. And I learned to read Hebrew. But by now, I don't
think I can read. A little bit maybe. INT: So, so tell me
more of, you know, some memories that you have
of that time in your life. Like did you have hobbies? Did you belong to clubs? About your friends? What do you remember? JS: My friends were mixed. They were not just Jewish. I had some very good friends,
[? Paola ?] [? Getzinger, ?] non-Jewish; [? Greta ?]
[? Debula ?] non-Jewish; [NON-ENGLISH], Jewish. Let's see. [PAUSES FOR 5 SECONDS] We were all-- when I was
growing up, it was no special, you're Jewish, you're
Catholic you're-- [PAUSES FOR 4
SECONDS] nobody asked. But later on, they
became all very that they didn't like the Jews. Once Hitler was there, was
the Viennese were terrible. And they want to say that they
were the first ones taken, it's a lie. They were climbing on the
trees to greet Hitler. INT: Do you remember-- sorry. JS: I remember that. And when they say that they
were the first country taken, they welcomed him. He was one of theirs. He was born in Vienna. So that was not true. But I think they let
them, after the war, that they were treated like-- because of their
chancellor, Schuschnigg, who did not want to give
in, and they wanted him-- they wanted to hide
him, and he said no. And he was standing
there, and they put him in a concentration camp. But later on, he came here
and he taught my grandchild-- where did-- where did
[? Gracie ?] go to school? HEIDI SPIEGEL: WashU. [PAUSES FOR 4 SECONDS]
Washington University, St. Louis. JS: Jeffrey will tell you. He, he taught in
an American school, in college, in college, right? [? Gracie, ?] Schuschnigg
was teaching in your school. GRACE HUTCHER: OK, cool. JS: That was the
all-state count-- [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] he did
not want to give in to Hitler. He wanted to vote, and
Hitler stuck him into-- he felt that maybe
the Viennese will not want to vote for Hitler. But it didn't, it
didn't come to it. Hitler didn't take any
chances that somebody would vote against him. INT: Oh, what, what did you
feel was the first thing that happened that you thought
there was going to be something different in your life? What, what did you feel first? What was the first change
that you felt, you know, when, when things, politically,
started changing in Austria? JS: What was the first? There was so many
different things happened-- that, all of a sudden, lots
of my friends were in uniform. And the-- [PAUSES FOR
4 SECONDS] the BDM. This was the girls for Hitler. And the boys were in the
uniform, all of a sudden, with the black pants
and brown shirts. And-- [PAUSES FOR 4 SECONDS] Vienna became-- because
they were very proud that Hitler was from Vienna,
so the people changed a lot. But they were-- INT: Did your, did your family-- I'm sorry. I'm sorry, go ahead. JS: No, that's all right. What were you going to ask? INT: I wanted to ask if your
family had a radio at home. Or were you, were you
listening to what was going on, and did you hear speeches by
Hitler they talk about that? JS: What, what I remember
is that at night, there were a certain way knocking,
and then the English came on. And they spoke, they spoke about
that in the votes of Poland, there is something
very terrible going on. But they gave the-- during
the night, there was the-- I don't know what the, what
the English thing was, but I know that their side
came on after they knocked a certain knocking. But we had a radio,
but it was very dangerous to listen to that
because they used to be-- cars used to drive around to
listen if anybody had a radio. And then we had to-- I don't know what
happened, but I think my parents then destroyed
the radio so we should not be caught with it. [PAUSES FOR 5 SECONDS] I remember the famous-- in November, the Kristallnacht. Have you heard of that? INT: Yes. Could you, could you talk
about that, where you were and what you saw? JS: Yeah. Well, we were home. And one of my-- my father had many
non-Jewish friends. One of them came. His name was Novak. I will never forget that name. He came. He said to my father, please
get dressed and come with me. And for the whole night, he
took my father and hid him. I don't know where. And, and all the Nazis came,
and they took all the men from our building, who
wound up then in Buchenwald. And Mr. Novak brought
my father back. [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] I will
never forget that, that friend. He was a very, very good friend. He was with my father in the
First World War together. INT: And did you,
did your parents talk about possibly leaving Austria,
or did they have a plan? What did they-- what
were they considering? JS: Well, my mother's sister
was in Belgium, and we want-- we had-- they had some
cousins in the United States. But there were three of us-- my Aunt Dora, my mother,
and her younger sister. And they just-- the people
they had in the States, you needed, I think, $5,000
for affidavit for family. So only one relative
was rich enough to have $5,000 in the bank,
because you couldn't touch it, once you put it up, until
the person was in the States. So nobody was this rich in my
family, except that one cousin. Abe Grob was his name It was
the cousin of my mother's. INT: And this was someone
who was in the United States? JS: Yeah. INT: And what, what-- JS: I had-- I'm sorry. INT: Could you spell his last
name, this, the person Abe? JS: Yeah. G-R-O-B. Grob. It was Abraham Grob. And he had a cafeteria
or something. I don't know, but he
had the money to put up. [PAUSES FOR 4 SECONDS] The
thing was that he was-- he gave that for my
mother's youngest sister. They decided. He didn't decide of it. Between the three
sisters, they decided that the youngest sister
should get the affidavit. INT: What was her name? JS: Sabina. INT: Sabina. JS: Sabina Shapiro. INT: And, and what happened? Did she get the affidavit? JS: She got the
affidavit, but she never came to the United States. They went to Belgium. They lived in Belgium. But I think by the time it
came to, she couldn't make it. They went to France. When the Germans
marched in, everybody-- they lived first in
Belgium, including me. We all walked towards France. But they were let in
to France because they had that affidavit. I was-- I didn't have an
affidavit, so I was not let in. But they, they went
with neighbors. And the neighbors
weren't let in either, so they said, well, we will
take her back to, to Brussels. INT: Well, Jeanette,
let-- hold off. I want to go back a
little bit because I want to hear a little bit
more about what happened and what you saw
on Kristallnacht, and, and what life was
like after the Germans came to Austria. You know, how did
your life change? [PAUSES FOR 3
SECONDS] Oh, and also, could you sit back a little bit? JS: Well-- INT: Can you lean back? Thank you. JS: It changed. For the first-- in
school, it changed. Everything was different. We, we were-- all of a
sudden, many, many people wanted to have nothing
to do with Jewish people. So [PAUSES FOR 4 SECONDS] some-- then my friend-- I kept my Jewish friend,
like [? the Lotte. ?] And so but my, my non-Jewish
friends maybe-- yeah, the [? Paola. ?] One
for sure was still my friend. But they didn't come
and I didn't see them. And we used to play ball
and that stopped, too, [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] so. INT: And were you
still going to school? JS: No, they closed the school. But, I don't know which, Jewish
organization opened something. And then there were
the Jewish children. Like I went to school
in the ninth borough. But when the Jewish people
opened some school for kids, they took the 20th borough,
the ninth borough-- they took a few
boroughs together, because they only opened
one or two schools, and then I could go there. [PAUSES FOR 4 SECONDS] But-- INT: And could you-- JS: It was never the same. INT: And could you talk a
little more about Kristallnacht? Where, where were you that
night that that happened, and what did you see afterwards? JS: We-- I was with my
parents, where I lived. And my father's
friend, Novak, came. And he told my mother,
no matter what happens, do not open the door. And they were
knocking on the door. And the door was [PAUSES
FOR 3 SECONDS] wood here and wood here, but
like bubble glass here with iron thing. And my mother thought
they would break that in, but it held because there
was the iron before you could get to the glass. And she told us we can't-- no talk. No talk. Just quiet. And we didn't open. And the door held,
and we were saved. [PAUSES FOR 3
SECONDS] But that-- but some Jewish
people in our building they took because the ninth
borough was not very Jewish. It was a very mixed, like
in the second borough, which was very religious, and
most religious Jewish people lived in the second borough. And there it was very, very bad. So many people were taken then. [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] And then there was only
[PAUSES FOR 6 SECONDS] Buchenwald and one other
concentration camp. There was Auschwitz then. [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] I don't know what the other-- I forgot. It's so long. INT: And what happened
the day after? Did you go out to
see, you know, what it was like the day
after Kristallnacht? Did you, did you see anything? JS: No. My mother would not let me out. But what we did is
she only let me out. Only I went out for
shopping, food, or so, not-- none of my parents or my
sister, they did not go out. But I don't know. They said-- I
said, I said, I go. I'm not afraid. I had nobody. [PAUSES FOR 6 SECONDS] I went, I shopped,
and I went home. But I did not go
out to play again, to play ball with
my friends, or so. I don't know. They might not have
wanted to play with me, anyhow, if they weren't Jewish. INT: Were you able to go
back to your synagogue? JS: [? Samilda ?] Temple? No. It was Rabbi Schwartz. And [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS]
when, when that happened, he got up on the pulpit. And he said, if you can-- it will be terrible. If you can, try all
to leave Austria. And he made a big speech
against the Germans. And after this, I think
he fled to England. [PAUSES FOR 5 SECONDS] And then for, for the youth
service was Rabbi Brauner. Brauner, yeah. He also escaped. Because Rabbi Brauner, I saw-- I don't know if it was
in Belgium or in Vienna? In Belgium I think
I saw him once. INT: Jeanette, we're going
to pause for a minute. OK, let's go back because I want
to ask you how a decision was made about what to do next. Like what did your parents
decide for you and your sister? JS: My sister, I think,
could have gone to England, but they sent me to my
mother's sister, to Belgium. And then my sister didn't
want to leave my parents. And she stayed with
them, and she got killed and my parents got killed. [PAUSES FOR 5 SECONDS] I think, I think they got shot. [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] My-- I don't know. My daughter knows
where it happened. Where's Heidi? HEIDI SPIEGEL: I'm over here. JS: Heidi? HEIDI SPIEGEL: What? JS: Where did-- Heidi, come here. HEIDI SPIEGEL: No. INT: That's OK. We can talk to Heidi after-- well, well-- JS: She knows where
my parents got shot. INT: OK. Well, you know what? We'll ask her to talk
about that afterwards. But tell me how-- like
tell me about that time that you left Vienna. What, what did you-- what
were you thinking or-- HEIDI SPIEGEL: Mom [INAUDIBLE]. JS: They sent me to
my aunt in Belgium. So-- INT: And which aunt-- which aunt was that? JS: That was my
mother's younger sister. There were three, my mother-- INT: And do you remember-- do you remember that
day that you left? You know, what were you thinking
that was going to happen? JS: I, I certainly didn't
think that I would never see my parents again. It was much more like I
am going to visit my aunt. And I knew my aunt and I knew my
cousins, so I wasn't this sad. [PAUSES FOR 11 SECONDS] Well, [PAUSES FOR 4
SECONDS] my mother must have known something
because she was crying and she did not want to
go bring me to the train. Only my father brought me. [PAUSES FOR 6 SECONDS] But I, I didn't know. I didn't have the feeling that
I will not see my parents again. INT: And how, how was
it, your time in Belgium? Could you talk about that,
when you arrived and what, what conditions was
there for you there? JS: Well, [PAUSES FOR
3 SECONDS] Belgium was taken then in May '45. [PAUSES FOR 4 SECONDS]
I know it was May because I remember I
woke up and I said, oh, we're going to get a storm. I heard such noise. And then I looked out
and there was sunshine. And I said, what is that noise? And that was the
Belgians fighting, but they had no help
from the French, and the famous Maginot
Line was never used. But the [NON-ENGLISH],,
which was the Belgium-- later on it became
The Underground, but they were fighting. But they were a
small, little country, fighting the big German army. So I know I will never forget. [PAUSES FOR 4 SECONDS] My aunt, we all tried
to get into France. When they, they let my aunt
in-- she had the affidavit-- they didn't let me in
and they didn't let then my aunt's neighbors in. And they took me back, and
they were very good to me. Their name was Bock. Because they had
a daughter which was in Koln, in Cologne, with
his mother, which he never saw. [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] And
his wife came to join him, but they couldn't bring the kid. And they were very good to me. I must have been sort of
the same age, I think. INT: And you said Bock? Could you spell that,
the family name? JS: Yeah, Gerhardt
and Elsa Bock. B-O-- apostrophes-- C-K, I think. INT: So was anyone else with
you, beside you and your aunt? Was there other family members? JS: Yeah. INT: Were there any
other family members? JS: My-- my uncle and my two
cousins, Herta and Erika, who also died in Auschwitz. By the time I came in,
there was one of their, of their friends was
alive, and she told me that both girls were
killed in Auschwitz. But my aunt and uncle
were killed immediately. They never made it in. But both their
daughters made it in. But one got typhus-- not typhoid, typhus. That was, in German,
I know Fleck fever. Like you got spots, whatever,
and that was very common. But when you got that, they
immediately killed you out. I know-- INT: Wait, could, could-- I'm sorry. Could you go back to
the time where you, you tried to go into France. Like because you couldn't
get in, now what happened and where did you go from there? JS: The neighbors, Mr. and
Mrs. Bock, rode me back and they kept me,
because they had that-- he never saw his daughter, who
was supposedly close to my age. And [PAUSES FOR 5 SECONDS]
they were very good to me. He, he, he was-- he made [PAUSES FOR 3
SECONDS] a bookbinder. You know what that is? If you had some old, very
[PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] expensive books, you would
put them in leather or just in half leather. So-- and, and by
watching him, I know how to do it, how to
sew the [INAUDIBLE].. Yeah. They were very nice and very-- and-- and-- INT: Was that family Jewish? JS: No. No. They were German. They were German
communists who ran away. And in fact, his brother was a
well-known communist because he was a friend, or a
close thing, to-- what was the name of
the communist leaders? I don't remember the name. [PAUSES FOR 7 SECONDS] So they were not Jewish. INT: At that time, did
you-- were you in hiding, or were you still
able to go out? [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] When
you were with the Bock family, did you have to hide? JS: Officially, I was hiding. I always went out. I didn't-- the Jews had
to wear a yellow star. I never wore the star. [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] In fact, it was this family
who told me, no such thing. They have no right to
make you wear the star. But most Jews, my aunt, they
wore stars and they were taken. And I remember the Gestapo came,
in '42, [PAUSES FOR 4 SECONDS] to get my aunt and uncle. And I remember that-- I remember that day very well. I-- you know, you
could buy nothing. You had stamps, but
they were no good. And I remember there were-- I have, had a very small
foot, like a 34, so an impossible thing. And in the shoe
store, there was-- the sample was a 34
that was for sale, and I said I wanted
to go to buy them. And I asked my
cousins, come with me. Let's walk down the boulevard. It's not far. But my aunt says, oh, they
have to get dressed up. I said, for what? For walking down. No, my aunt said. So I went. I bought the shoes. They were, they were made from
straw and had a cork bottom. But it was better
than not-- no shoes. So when I come back-- and they lived in the
[NON-ENGLISH] in Brussels. And I was in the
corner, and I look and I see the Gestapo car
is in front of the building. And I said, I'm not going to
go there, and I stood back. And they-- they took my, my
uncle and the two cousins. And later on, when I came,
when I was in Auschwitz, I, I saw a friend of
theirs who told me that my aunt and uncle
was killed immediately, gassed immediately, but
the girls made it in. But then I think one got typhus,
this Fleck fever, and then the other one then got sick,
too, and they got killed. INT: And what were their
names, your cousins? JS: Herta was the older one
and Erika was the younger one. INT: And their last
name, their last name? JS: Shapiro. Shapiro. INT: Did you have any
contact with your parents in Vienna during that time? JS: Did I have friends? INT: Did you, did you have
contact with your parents? JS: The only thing
is to, to my aunt. My aunt was writing
and I was writing them. [PAUSES FOR 4 SECONDS] And that was all. There was no
telephone or anything. I think-- I don't know if
you could phone from one country to another then. INT: But, but you-- you
were receiving letters from your parents? JS: Yeah, they were writing. [PAUSES FOR 8 SECONDS] They were writing to
my aunt, and then to-- they always put letters in
for me when they send them. INT: So after you were
with the Bock family, what, what happened after that? JS: After this
happened, Auschwitz. INT: Tell me how
you arrived there, like what happened
in Brussels that you were taken to Auschwitz? JS: Oh, how? Let's see. They were hunting the
Jews, and I, I escaped. Once they really got me,
[PAUSES FOR 4 SECONDS] that was also in '42. And I had a kitten. And I said-- the Gestapo was up. And I said, am I allowed to
bring my kitten to the super so somebody takes care of it? Oh, yeah, they said. We wouldn't want that
little cat to die-- very friendly to the cat. So, so they went up to get
some other Jewish people, and I took the pussy cat. And I went downstairs. [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] And I opened the
door to outside, and I see that the Gestapo
car is way down the street. I put the cat down,
and I ran out. And I think I took a
picture, many years later, at that corner. An electric tram came. Then-- now they
have doors to close. Then there were no doors. I jumped up and I said,
the Gestapo is after me. And there was some people
in the train in the car. And they said, let's go
all the way to the wald. Don't stop. Don't stop. I respect the Belgium
people for doing that. And they all went
far out of their way. And I got off at the wald. That's-- how do
you translate wald? It was the woods, in the woods. And they went back then
to where they needed. But there wasn't a single one
that said they should stop, they want to get out. So I have great respect
for those people. So then-- INT: So what happened
in the woods? What did you do then? JS: Then I waited
till the evening. Then I took a train
and I stopped off by my friend, Maete. She was from Germany. She was Jewish. And she was married. Her husband's name was Gunther. I think their name was Neufeld. I'm not sure. Maybe that was her maiden name. I, I can't remember. And I told them what happened. And they said, oh, you
stay here with us until-- I stayed with them. I stayed with so many
different people, Jewish, who was hiding themselves. [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] And of course, they saw a
Jewish kid, more or less. And they said, yeah,
you can stay with us. [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS]
But nothing helped. Because [PAUSES FOR 7
SECONDS] in the end, [PAUSES FOR 4 SECONDS]
they did catch me. But had they caught me in
'42, I would not be alive now. It was-- very few people
made it who got there in '42. [PAUSES FOR 5 SECONDS] And there was a big
difference already for '44. INT: And how did they
finally catch you? Where were you then? Do you remember-- do
you remember that day that you were taken? JS: Yeah. [PAUSES FOR 5 SECONDS] On April Fool's Day. [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS]
April 1, 1944. [PAUSES FOR 6 SECONDS] I was staying then-- I was living then with the lady. Her name was Schick. But I don't remember
her first name. INT: Do you remember
how it was spelled? How do you spell it? JS: Yeah. Yeah. S-C-H-I-C-K. Schick. [PAUSES FOR 4 SECONDS] She had a son who was in prison
in Belgium for black market. And she was very happy. He says, just let him
stay in prison in Belgium. But then I think they did empty
the prisons of Jewish people and they got killed. But anyhow, I got in. I came to Auschwitz,
and there was music. [PAUSES FOR 4 SECONDS] They
had the band always playing. [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] And then [PAUSES FOR 4 SECONDS]
there were Germans, all SS, standing. And then there was somebody,
but he was-- he had the doctor. It was Dr. Mengele. Did you ever hear of that name? [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] Yeah. Dr. Mengele was standing. Right, right, left, left. We didn't know. He'd split the things. [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] And then to our side-- I don't even remember if it
was right or left, what I was. He said-- he called somebody. They marched us into the camp. And they others they
marched to the crematorium. But we didn't know
that at the time. But there was something. There was a smell,
a very funny smell. And there were like
gray ashes, or whatever. I didn't know what the gray
stuff was, what fell off. We-- you come in, and
it's so unbelievable that you would think they
gas people and burn them. When you come in,
you don't think that. But we came in and
then they tattooed us. INT: Yes. Could you also read
the number for me? JS: Yeah 76655. I know it by heart. I don't have to look. [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] Then it was so much that later
on, they made an A in front. I don't know. They went to 200,000. I have no idea. And then they start A, all
numbers, and then the Bs. [PAUSES FOR 29 SECONDS] And so when we were
selected, right and left, he would say, no
[PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] children, small children. The mothers, they go. Because they-- it's about
a mile or two to walk. He said, they can
go on the truck. And I know there was, there
was a friend of mine whose mother had to go on the truck. And she says, I want
to be with my mother. And he says, well, you
can go up on the truck. And then a friend of her
mother's came, who had to walk, who was a young, young woman. And she says, I want
to go on the truck. So my friend, then
that girl, says, there was no room anymore. She says, oh, I will
give you my, my seat. And she came down and helped-- her life was saved because
she gave that seat away. INT: Do you remember
the name of your friend who took her-- who
went on the truck? JS: Yeah, Liesl. [PAUSES FOR 4 SECONDS] I would have to think about-- sometimes I remember the name. But her first name was Liesl. INT: Were there other-- were you with people
that you knew now, when you arrived there? Did you have-- JS: Well, we were, we
were first in Malines, where they gathered
enough people. Malines is in, in Belgium. In the middle, between Antwerp
and Brussels, is Mechelen. That's Malines in France,
Mechelen in Dutch. And that is where a camp
was, where they gathered enough people, because the
train couldn't come just for a, a few. And when they had enough-- like I was there three
or four days, but then they had enough people to
send a train to Auschwitz. INT: Do you remember
that train ride? JS: Yeah, sort of. It was cattle cars where they
used to transport cattles. And there was straw inside,
but no, no benches or so. But there were,
for every person, there was a Red Cross package
to food, of food to eat. The Red-- the Swiss
Red, Red Cross put-- if there-- say there are
30 people in that train, there were 30 packages. Everybody got a package. So we were going
like three days. It was a long-- it opened up. And there were things like
bread and some soft cake. But there also were
sardines and things in-- tuna. And I said, oh, I'm
going to leave that. Everybody was saving the things. And when we came there,
the Germans took that. INT: Did you know
where you were going when you were on the train? JS: No. You see, if you put on-- the English was the BBC. I don't know who it was. They used to talk about
that there is something in the woods of
Poland, but there are terrible things are going on. They knew something,
but they didn't know how much until
somebody escaped. Somebody escaped and went. Instead of saving
himself, this-- there were two people, I think-- they went to tell. They went to the Pope to tell. And they went to the
different Jewish organizations to tell what's really going on. Nobody knew before that. INT: Jeanette, we're going to
take a quick break right now, so I'm going to turn
off my recorder. I think your family
needs to, to, to move. So I'm turning my
recorder off right now. So Jeanette, let's,
let's go back. And just a little bit before
you arrived at Auschwitz, like where were you when the
Gestapo actually caught you? Where were you living? JS: I was in Belgium. That was-- I lived
in so many places. Where they did they catch me? [PAUSES FOR 6 SECONDS] I remember once, they came
where they didn't catch me, where I went out on the
roof and sat on the roof and waited till they were-- they left. It was always not just for me. They came and took
lots of people. But once I escaped,
when they let me bring the cat to the
super, and I opened the door, there were-- [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS]
the car, the Gestapo car, was down the street
getting some other people. So I opened the door and,
[PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] and the tram came by. And then they didn't have
doors, so I just jumped up and went all the way to
the wald [INAUDIBLE].. And I sat there for the day. And I went back. And I went, I think, to Maete,
to some Jewish friends I had. [PAUSES FOR 8 SECONDS] But of course, the Jewish
people would always let me in, or anybody
what [INAUDIBLE],, so if there was some. INT: Could you tell me
now more about your time when you arrived at Auschwitz? Can you hear me OK? JS: I can. INT: When you
arrived in Auschwitz, you talked to me about what
you saw and about Mengele. JS: Yeah. Well, we-- INT: Could you-- JS: We arrived. And, [PAUSES FOR 4 SECONDS] and
we had to walk into the camp. And as we was walking,
it was so bad. The water came up where
every [INAUDIBLE].. Later on we, were working-- working on it. They made the Jews work and make
streets and everything there, because it was unpaved. And I was there in April. [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS]
April 6 or by April 7. And there was a, a very big-- there was so much going on,
and I didn't know what it was. But later on, I found
out somebody escaped, and they were beside themselves. They looked all over,
that somebody could-- they didn't think anybody
could escape from there, but somebody did escape. some, some boys [INAUDIBLE]. INT: And were you able
to wear your own clothes or did you have to wear
something they gave you? JS: No, No. [PAUSES FOR 5 SECONDS] You see, when they
were taking me, [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS]
that SS man sort of was-- looked very friendly. He said, no, you can, you
can pack up all your things, he says. You can take them with you. So that's what I did, because
that's what they wanted you, to bring it. And then they took. You had to leave everything
and go into the shower. And you come out
on the other side. And there were some old,
torn clothes lying around. And I remember I had-- there was a long, brown
skirt that was too big on me, and I had to-- and then there was some, some
blue blouse with big sleeves. [PAUSES FOR 3
SECONDS] And later on, when I worked in the potato
fields, I loved my blouse. [LAUGHS] You couldn't be caught. Oh, they would beat you, thing. But the sleeve was big
enough, and I could take one-- one small potato for me
to eat, one small potato for the girl who had a
fire and a pot with water. And if she cooked your potato,
you had to give her one potato. And one I took for
the girl who was in charge of all the
basins, the water basins, because I wanted to-- I wanted to stay clean. If you had a louse,
they killed you. And there were many
lice in that place. So I gave her that potato and
let me wash and stay clean. So there were all
kinds of deals. [PAUSES FOR 4 SECONDS] And then we got a [NON-ENGLISH]. You know what the
[NON-ENGLISH] is? It's like a square, and it
was made in four pieces. It was this much bread,
[PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] one patty of margarine,
[PAUSES FOR 5 SECONDS] this big. And one slice of some kind-- wasn't salami, but it
was something, one slice. And then they had a soup, but
I don't know what was in there. [PAUSES FOR 15 SECONDS] And in the morning, they
gave you something to drink. We got a round dish,
which we got the food in. And we got the morning,
they said it was tea, but it was not tea. Whatever it was, it was
terrible and you were better off not drinking it. But the soup, when they
came with the soup, and you were lucky from-- you got from the bottom,
there was some potatoes in. And of course, there were-- what do you call that? [PAUSES FOR 7 SECONDS] Well, in German it is [GERMAN]. Whatever. But it was a smelly thing. A potato was good,
if you could get. But that other thing was smelly. INT: And what, what kind
of housing did you have? You know, where,
where did you sleep? JS: First we got into
barracks, and we had to stay without working there. It was quarantine. That was, I don't know,
two weeks, three weeks. They wanted to see if
anybody was sick or so. They told you. Oh, if you don't feel good,
if you was something wrong, go to the infirmary. [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] Well, they told me. In fact, they shaved us
but they left my hair. I was in the one
transport where they left the hair because
the Red Cross came and they put us in front. I didn't know why I was
standing there, but they went by and they said, what you-- they
said to them, what you hear is all lies. There you have them. We were all brand new. We came from outside. They didn't show the people
who were there for, for months. So the Red Cross found
that we didn't look so bad. INT: And what were
you thinking then? You know, how--
how did you feel? Were you afraid or
were you hopeful? You know, I can't imagine-- JS: Well-- INT: --what it was like then. JS: Well, I heard-- when I walked in, I heard that
I just avoided being gassed. I said, what do you mean? I wouldn't go in the gas
if he wants me to go. It was ridiculous, the way-- you think you--
because they told you. The inmates told you that
you would want your mother, your mother is already gone. You want-- you had a little
sister, you are not with her. She went the other way. She's already burning there. But I was lucky that I wasn't
with my sister or my mother. Had I been with my
mother, I would not have let her go alone this way. I would have gone with her. But I was alone, and that
was good that I was alone. Any other way, I would
not have made it. [PAUSES FOR 24 SECONDS] Usually, if I talk
about Auschwitz, [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] I,
I don't mention my parents, although they, they did
not die in Auschwitz. They died somewhere else. But because I can talk
about my mother or father, but when I talk about
Auschwitz, I picture them, and then it is so
much harder when-- to talk about them. I can talk if I
don't picture them. INT: Was there something,
while you were in Auschwitz, that gave you some comfort? Did you find something that
gave you some hope or comfort? JS: No. There all was-- [PAUSES
FOR 3 SECONDS] you always-- there was a selection. So if you made it, you
feel like you have another, I don't know, three months,
five months before they might make another
selection, who should live, who should die. And I was standing next
on one selection, I think. When I came in, I was
standing next to a girl. Her name was Susan. She was friends with
the Belgium transport, and also a French
transport was hooked on. And so Susan was French. And she had [PAUSES
FOR 5 SECONDS] a, a leather bracelet. And she says, I want you-- she
was next to me and she said, I want you to have
the leather bracelet. That will bring you luck. I said, you need it. She says, no, I'm not worried. Well, she didn't make
it and I made it. And I had that leather bracelet
for years and years here, and it fell apart
and I had it sewn on another piece of leather
until both disintegrated. Because I really believe that
leather bracelet saved me. But I did not know that the
doctor who came by and selected us, he, he didn't speak to most
people, but he spoke to me. He said, you have
very light eyes. Where did you get them from? I said, from my father. My father had very light eyes. That was all he said. And they all said, do you
know that was Mengele? Who is Mengele? I didn't know. [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS]
But I don't know then-- then I was scared. They said Mengele has a
selection of light eyes. I said, they're going
to kill me for my eyes. But no, I don't think he had. But there was so many
things said in the camp, you didn't know what was
true, what was not true. But that is-- I talked to Mengele. I said from my father. [PAUSES FOR 5 SECONDS] He, he looked very friendly. He spoke in, in
a very low voice. He did not scream. And he was such an evil person. [PAUSES FOR 5 SECONDS] And I think he was from Austria. Who else? [PAUSES FOR 5 SECONDS] And the commandant of the
camp was Rudolf Hoss, H-O-- with the two things-- S-S. [PAUSES FOR 4 SECONDS] Later on, towards the
end when I was there, we had another commandant that
was the head of the whole camp, by the name of Kramer. Kramer. I don't know the-- I don't remember the first name. [PAUSES FOR 4 SECONDS] But when we arrived
and the train held-- and there were prisoners because
they wore the striped uniform. They were men. The one who opened our car, our
car, said, you all are over 16 and you're all going to work. The only thing is most people
in my car only spoke French. They were, they
were from Belgium. And for me, it didn't matter. I was over 16. [PAUSES FOR 4 SECONDS] And do I want to work? Not for them, but I wouldn't
say that, of course. So it was somebody
who wanted to save, in case there was
somebody was only 15, or maybe some people
think, oh, maybe we don't have to work if we
are saying we are younger. So, so that was very nice of
that prisoner that to warn us. Later on, I found
out it was Fritz, but I can't remember the-- I know the other name because I
felt he saved people with this, if they understood him. But now I don't
remember his other name. [PAUSES FOR 5 SECONDS] But there were good people
and bad people in the-- and some good people became
bad because they became-- they had a good job, where
other people had to work. Like each barrack
had one girl who was the head of the barrack,
which was a good job. Well, we had to get up
sometimes at 4 o'clock at night. We had to stand outside,
because [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] the woman who was in charge-- Irma Grese. [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] She
was, I think she was hanged-- [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] used
to come at 7 o'clock by, and we had to stand. And I remember,
[PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] I remember I had shoes,
which a friend of my aunt who worked in the shoe department,
gave me, and they got stolen. And she says, you always
have to sleep on your shoes, she told me afterwards. I didn't know. We were in a-- we were a handful of Jewish
girls in a barrack with-- that was all Polish, all Polish
girls, and they stole my shoes. And she said, you
know, they are-- of course, she said,
you sleep on that. You don't leave that. That is maybe two big pieces of
bread they can have for that. But I didn't know. She got me then another
pair, but that was then just fabric with, with soles. She was a very nice lady. [PAUSES FOR 6 SECONDS] Some prisoners-- INT: Why, why do you say that? What sort of things would
they do that were not nice? JS: The kapos, they were Jewish. They would hit you for-- for-- to make themselves look
good for the German girl. Well, I guess. But most of them were very nice. I mean, they, they
leave you alone, but they cannot
give you more bread. They only have a little
piece just like you. [PAUSES FOR 4 SECONDS] But they came and they
gave you the soup. And if you were lucky,
you got from the bottom, where there were some
carrots and some potatoes in, where the top was
just soup and nothing-- INT: Was it an advantage for
you that you could speak German? JS: I think, I think the
people who spoke German, it was an advantage. For the first, you could
hear what-- you knew what the German told, said. If he said, make and place
five each, or whatever, you knew what to do, so
you avoided being hit. [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] And then I remember I-- in the beginning, there was-- they selected some people. And they said there
are new people come in, and you have to get
all their jewelry. [PAUSES FOR 5 SECONDS] And there was a thing
where the jewelry got in. [PAUSES FOR 5 SECONDS] I did not want to work in that. [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] A French transport came
and I was in that thing. And there was a lady. [PAUSES FOR 4 SECONDS] And
she had given whatever, but she wore a wedding,
a gold wedding band. I said, please put
that in that box. And she got so mad at me. And she said, you want
to be a Jewish child? You want to take
my wedding band? I gave them my earrings,
my watch, my bracelet. And I looked at her. I said, please,
please look at me. Put-- the German was standing
behind me and he went whack. And he gave her such a shot. And I saw the-- I, I said, I am not
taking your jewelry. Please, put it there. And if the-- if she
would have hidden it, I let her go by and
I'm happy that she-- but she cannot do that with
the German staying here and she wears it. [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] And I said, I cannot
work in that thing. That is a very bad
thing to work in. And everybody wanted to work. It was very easy, much easier
than taking heavy loads of, of stones and making, trying
to get to the-- the gold without all the
pulling stones on. Was-- [PAUSES FOR 10 SECONDS] I don't know why she thought she
could keep that wedding band. I am not-- I understand that the
wedding band meant more to her than her diamond
earrings and everything, but I couldn't leave it. Otherwise, I would
have gotten hit. [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] But I said, I cannot do that. That makes me feel like
crying, that people thinks I want to be mean to them. And I have nothing
to do with that. [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] So then after I
worked in repairing streets and all these things,
[PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] Mengele came. [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS]
Don't forget, I had hair. [PAUSES FOR 4 SECONDS] Then you took 50 kids,
50 girls standing there, all with little hair
like this, standing up. I had hair. But all my transport had
hair, but we were only one, transport in hundreds,
so once in a while. And also, once you
had a job, like you were the head of the barrack-- or there were some others
that were in the kitchen-- so your hair grew. And so when somebody
saw you with hair, they always felt, oh,
you must have a good job. But I-- they left our
transport with hair. We didn't have good jobs,
but it was a great advantage. [PAUSES FOR 4 SECONDS] So then I met a girl there. She was Jewish. And she was, I think, the only
one who was treated like-- there were many
non-Jews caught there, for prostitution and for
being political involved, and all this. But that Jewish girl-- and they put these
people in, in Auschwitz, but they kept their things. That means if you
came with a suitcase, they put the-- the
name on, because it was a non-Jewish girl. And eventually, maybe she
gets free and she can take. And there was one Jewish
girl from Yugoslavia who was a political
prisoner, but she was Jewish. [PAUSES FOR 4 SECONDS]
And I became-- INT: Do you remember her name? JS: --really friendly with her. She was very nice. [PAUSES FOR 5 SECONDS] Yeah. Magda Goswitz. [PAUSES FOR 5 SECONDS] I think that she got married,
was Magda [? Friedrich. ?] But we went-- I went to-- she-- I heard she was married
to a Swede or a Norwegian. But I went with my
husband all over Europe to look for her, because she
was really a good friend. And we never found. We went to like the
Jewish, the Kultusgemeinde, like where the Jews
were registered. [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS]
But I never found her. [PAUSES FOR 4 SECONDS] Then I remember, in Belgium,
[PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] I was-- [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS]
the Catholic nuns. I know of how it came. In Belgium, the, the
buildings were like small. The stairs were wooden
and had an edge of-- an aisle. Like I got stuck
and I fell down, but I wound up in the
hospital in Belgium. No, the Belgium
people were very nice. I have nothing bad about them. [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] And it was the nuns
who took care of that. And I could have stayed. They liked me a lot, and they
would have liked to keep me. [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] But
it was an old-age home, and every morning, they
came with the cross. They walked alone. We walked up. I walked after them. And then I would say, oh,
where is Madame so-and-so? They would say, and what? She died. It was an old-age home. They was so old, these
people, that later on, when, when we looked and
said, no, they gave up. They were-- they were all very
old, sick people were in there. I didn't want to be there. I would have been saved
had I stayed with the nuns. But because it was an old-age
home, I was scared of it. I was dumb. [PAUSES FOR 5 SECONDS] So this, also, little things
which I remember, you know. INT: Jeanette, were you,
you able to stay healthy, or at least did you
avoid getting ill when you were in Auschwitz? JS: I was healthy,
but what happened is when they shaved you-- you went like
this-- they cut me. And it was-- and when you-- when a selection came for the-- for the gas chambers,
you had to get undressed. You had to go like this
and you had to turn around. And Mengele, Dr.
Mengele, would decide. So that wasn't
very good to have. But I worked in the Kanada then. Well, it was called Kanada
because [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] the people said Kanada is
the land of milk and honey. And it was such a good
job, it was like I, I worked on the coats ones. There came-- five coats came. You put them together and
they were shipped to Germany. Was all Jewish, what
Jewish people bring. That's why you left
the suitcase there. They-- they were opened
up and they were sorted. Jewelry, of course, was always-- there was the German
always standing over it. But I heard of
things where, if you have jewelry that you
could smuggle through, there was a German who
would tattoo somebody. If you didn't get
a tattoo, that you were going into the gas chamber. He would-- if you had some
jewelry, if you could smuggle, smuggle through some jewelry-- it was very difficult
to smuggle jewelry. I couldn't do that. I didn't have any great jewelry. I had nothing. I had tiny little earrings,
like children wear, with little blue stone. I had, I had the little gold
necklace with a, with a mezuzah on. But there were
young people there. I didn't have jewelry. Jewelry came with
the Hungarians. When the Hungarian
transports came, there came jewelry and food. [PAUSES FOR 5 SECONDS] But when I worked in
assorting five coats-- and we put them nicely
together, made a bundle, and they were
shipped to Germany. All the stuff they
stole from the Jews was shipped to Germany. That's how they gave
out when all your-- the Germans gave all your-- another child and
is your 10th child, you deserve whatever
they gave you. And it was all Jewish, but
they stole from the Jews. [PAUSES FOR 27 SECONDS] Now it is over 70 years already. [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS]
But when I first came, I think my daughter
Heidi's son recorded. Then I remembered so
much more little details. And I think he recorded this. I don't know. Maybe [INAUDIBLE]. INT: While you were
there, did you have-- did you hear any
news about the war and, and what was going on
with the war at the time you were there? JS: A little. What happened is [PAUSES
FOR 3 SECONDS] there came a Polish-- there were latrines and they
came to clean out the latrine. And they came from the outside. These was the only
people I knew. And if we found
watch, or anything, we could make a deal with them. We gave them the watches
or so, or they said, throw them into the latrine. We get it. We did that. And they would give a Polish
paper, but I couldn't read it. But some of the girls
could, were from Poland, and they could read it. And-- but what was reported was
always looking at the German side, or the-- but it was enough, and they
said, we haven't gotten the-- to move the Russians yet, but
we will by tomorrow probably. It was enough. Ah, they're stuck there. The Russians got them. So only this way,
because the papers wouldn't write anything what
would get them in trouble. They were all-- practically all
of Europe was in German hands. So it was very dangerous
to say anything against. [PAUSES FOR 30 SECONDS] I came to the United States
as a displaced person. But my mother had cousins,
which, whom I never knew-- and her aunt, which
was my great aunt, who lived in the United States. And when they
heard that I was, I was the only one of,
by my mother three, by my father, four, big
families and children. I was the only one
to survive from, I think, my, my daughter my said
was, all together, with cousins and second cousins, like
400 people, I was told. They immediately sent
me care packages. [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] So [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS]
I, I told them that-- I wrote them. I thanked them, and
that I, I sold the rice. Rice was so seldom to get
that I got enough money. Then I lived with another girl
in Vienna when I came back. That was after
Auschwitz, that I could pay the rent for
the thing, for one. I think it was two kilo, two-- whatever that was of
rice-- was enough. Rice was so-- there was
no such thing like rice. I didn't even like rice. I was-- yeah, I want to sell it. I don't like it. I didn't care. I can eat bread. I like bread, because
we didn't get that. We got the little
piece of bread. INT: Jeanette, I want to
ask you a few more things about Auschwitz. So what, what gave you then
sort of the strength to go on? Did you have hope? Did you think that the war
would end and you would go home? JS: I don't know if I
told them, but I said they are not going to get me. I promised myself that
they will not get me, and I worked on that. That I remember. I said, they will not get me. They got my cousins. They got my uncle. And I knew by then that
my parents definitely didn't make it. But I had hoped that my sister
made it, but she didn't. [PAUSES FOR 6 SECONDS] No. [PAUSES FOR 4 SECONDS] When I was in Auschwitz,
I wanted my sister to be taken both to Auschwitz
because I had enough food, so I, I knew enough
people to save her. But she didn't
come to Auschwitz. She-- I don't-- I forgot where she got killed. She was 18. [PAUSES FOR 8 SECONDS] I didn't hope for my parents
because I saw where they are. I said, no, they-- they would not have
been able to make it. But all this time, I had
hoped my sister made it, but she didn't. And I knew already my
cousins were there. And they came into the camp. And they were there for
months and then died. [PAUSES FOR 6 SECONDS] And somebody told me that the
older one, Herta, was taken, and she was on the truck. And she knew that
they're going to gas-- where they would go. Then Erika ran after them and
said, I want to go with her. I said, if I would
have been there, I would not have let
her go, but she didn't want to be without her sister. [PAUSES FOR 19 SECONDS] But I don't know. Would I have run after the
truck when my sister was there? [PAUSES FOR 4
SECONDS] I don't know. But I would have tried to
get my sister down, too. [PAUSES FOR 17 SECONDS] But she never came to Auschwitz. [PAUSES FOR 27 SECONDS] But we were a few girls from
Vienna and we stuck together. [PAUSES FOR 5 SECONDS] And they made it. One of them I knew
from Vienna, Herta, but she died of
typhus, Fleck fever. [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS]
The other one was Liesl. Liesl made it. And I saw Liesl
afterwards in Vienna. INT: Do you remember their
last name, Liesl's last name and Herta's last name? JS: Herta Eder. E-D-E-R. But Liesl--
what was Liesl? And Liesl was, was very
well-liked in camp because she was-- oh, she would split
anything she has. She was so good-natured. [PAUSES FOR 4
SECONDS] But the kapo didn't like Liesl
[PAUSES FOR 4 SECONDS] because all the other
girls liked her. [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS]
But now I don't remember. INT: And Jeanette-- I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Go ahead. I'm sorry to interrupt. JS: No, I was friendly
with a girl from Cologne. Her name was Sarah Schneider. And she made it. And I heard, when the
American Army was there, her cousin was-- she found her cousin. And she married him and
went to the United States. And that was a good
day, was [INAUDIBLE].. INT: Now, I was
going to ask, you know, here you were in Auschwitz
with so many young women your age. What happens when you would
have your, your period? You know, what-- did--
did-- was there something that you could do? JS: No. You-- it just stopped. They gave you the tea. I think it had something
to do with that. INT: And what if
somebody was pregnant? JS: No more. INT: Did you did you
know if anybody came? JS: Yeah. Yeah. I know. I'm thinking of her name. [? Bertha, ?] but I don't
remember her second name. And they ask if
anybody was pregnant. And if you were
smart, you said no. But, but, but they didn't
know when they first came in. And she went and Mengele,
they all became-- [PAUSES FOR 4 SECONDS]
how do you say that? When Mengele tried-- he
tried all kinds of things, of cutting them open. Or twins-- he asked,
who are twins? And then they were separated. They got good food. Then one of them he made all
kinds of, of experiments. That's what they did with
all the pregnant women. They made all experiment. They wanted to find
out how to make-- people should get twins
and triples and whatever. Germany needed
people for the war. So it was very bad. You were better off
not saying if you were a twin [PAUSES
FOR 4 SECONDS] and, and if you were pregnant. [? Bertha ?] said, and
then she got very good food throughout them. And then he took the baby and
killed the baby and killed her. But I know, where I worked
there was a Hungarian woman. She was pregnant, but
she was hiding it. And when the baby was
born, the baby was dead. They put it out. Nobody told who was-- whose baby it was, and
her life was saved. Of course, she lost the
baby, but she was freed. And if her husband was
safe, I don't know, but she could have another baby. This one was lost. [PAUSES FOR 4 SECONDS] Oh, Mengele is like that. Oh, he, he was treating them
very special, because then in the end, to cut them open. It was terrible. It was better to move, to be
the wall, to be not seen, not-- it was better. [PAUSES FOR 4 SECONDS] I was in shock when he
asked me about my eyes. Right away, there were
tales that he kills people because he collects eyes. I don't think he did. But with so many different
stories went around, you didn't know what was
true, what was not true. [PAUSES FOR 6 SECONDS] But I remember I was
wishing I had dark eyes. Why. Do I have light eyes? [PAUSES FOR 9 SECONDS] My eye doctor then told me-- I said-- he says, no,
you don't have gray eyes. Your eyes are
colorless, practically. He says, but it has a
black ring around it. That's what gives it the color. [PAUSES FOR 6 SECONDS] Good thing Mengele
didn't know that. [PAUSES FOR 13 SECONDS] I escaped on the big march. INT: What-- could you tell
me what the big march was and when that was? JS: Yeah. That was in January. Then the Russians
came so close that we could hear the cannons shoot. And they would not-- anybody what worked
in the Kanada could not be left
because these-- where we worked were
the crematorium, and the gas chambers
were right behind us. And they planted bushes there,
so-- but I came in there before they planted the bushes. And in October, I remember
[PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] I saw children there with
their parents-- with their mother. Not with the parents,
with their mother. And we said, oh my
god, they leave-- they let some children live. That's great. I found out that they were Roma. You know what it is? Yeah. And then they took them
in October, and the gas, the children with the parents-- with the mothers,
not the parents. The fathers, I don't
know where they were. But they did not
like this people, just like they
didn't like the Jews. [PAUSES FOR 7 SECONDS] And I know-- [PAUSES FOR 10 SECONDS] But the Jewish children,
the, the little ones, they said, with the mother. [PAUSES FOR 15 SECONDS] INT: Did you have some
warning ahead of time that you were going to be
marched out of the camp, out of Auschwitz? JS: Yes, because the Kanada,
it was where we worked. It was called the Kanada. It was the last-- they were-- they marched
all the others first and we were the last ones
to, to get in line and march. And because we worked with
clothing, to assort clothing, I remember I put
a gray sweater on. We weren't allowed to do
that, but I had a blouse on. I put the gray sweater,
and some other open sweater and the jacket. It was-- you know how
cold it was in '44? You can go back. It was the coldest
winter they ever had. [PAUSES FOR 4 SECONDS] So I had all kinds
of things, which I stole from the Kanada,
which belonged to the-- to the people who came in. These people were
[INAUDIBLE] gone, long gone. You know, that we got them-- whomever they killed there, they
sent their stuff to Germany. But when I was working
there once on coats, I had to put together
five coats, make a bundle, and sent to-- that was sent to Germany. Whenever-- and the German
was walking up and down in our barrack and would look. But whenever the German didn't
look, I had the scissors and I cut it. I ruined the coat. Why should they have
the Jewish coat? No. We were-- I wasn't the
only one doing that. Anybody who could
do it would do it, that, no, you took that away. You want to be the
big shot, give it-- giving it to the Germans, who
thinks you are so wonderful. You provide food. You provide clothing. It was all Jewish things. So we tried to tear,
make a tear in them. [PAUSES FOR 4 SECONDS] But you couldn't
be caught with it. That was a no-no. INT: So when, when, when
people were being marched away, did you know where
they were going? JS: It sort of
came out that they were going to another camp,
that the Russians were very close to us. We could hear them. We could hear the cannons. So [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS]
they didn't want the Russians to come and find us. And you know what they would
have done to the Germans, so we knew they're going
to move us to another camp. But by then, I had it-- the first thing I did was
escape, [PAUSES FOR 4 SECONDS] together with my friend. [PAUSES FOR 5 SECONDS] We were in like cattle
trains, open cattle trains, and it was very cold. [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] And [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS]
we were going first, it says, to Dresden. And then we are-- the train-- yeah, let me
first straighten that out. [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] We were
going to another concentration camp, Bergen-Belsen. [PAUSES FOR 4 SECONDS] But was-- the train
stopped in Neisse. I thought it was a
city or something, but my daughter
later on looked it up and it was a whole
area called Neisse. N-E-I-S-S-E. And [PAUSES FOR 4 SECONDS]
there was a very big-- where all the trains
come together, what do you call that? There was a train from, I
don't know, from Berlin and one from Koln and-- [PAUSES FOR 4 SECONDS]
and there was a German. We were- the open car
was a German sitting here and the German
sitting on each end. And then there was some straw. And I said, am I allowed,
I want to get the straw? We are cold. He says, yeah, you can get the-- so I went out. I never came back. I went into another train-- INT: Who was the friend? JS: --to a normal train. With my friend [PAUSES
FOR 3 SECONDS] Ruth. INT: Jeanette. JS: Ruth Korkus. INT: Jeanette, Jeanette,
I'm sorry to interrupt you, but my sound is, is not good
and I think they need to fix it. And let's-- can we take a break
just for a few minutes till they do that? But remember-- JS: Absolutely. INT: But remember
about where we were because I want to ask you
some more things about that. But let's take a break for
just a few minutes, OK? My sound was a
little spotty when you were talking about how you
escaped from the cattle car, when you were on the,
that death march. Could you tell me that
again how you did that? JS: Well, when the Russians
came close towards the camp, they evacuated the
camp. v And they-- first we walked. [PAUSES FOR 5 SECONDS] I don't know was it. They-- they got us into
open cattle trains. INT: OK, you know, I
missed a little bit of what you were saying
because of the equipment. So could you go back
and tell me again how you escaped from the
cattle car on the death march? And then you took another train
but I didn't hear everything. So could you go back to that,
the escape with your friend? JS: I-- we-- [PAUSES FOR 3
SECONDS] we asked if-- the cattle trains were open
and there was-- on each end was an SS man standing. So when we stopped
[PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] in Neisse, I think
it was, I asked-- there was straw. There was another car
there with straws, if we could get some straw. And he said, yes, we could go
over there and get some straw. So my friend and I went
out, [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] took the straw. We went out on the other side of
the train, you know, and went-- and then there was a
train standing and the-- [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] there
we went into the train, and the train was
a regular train. And we were walking
through, and there was one whole thing where
all the children were there, were in there. So we went in there. And I remember there
was a boy in there that said, where are you from? And he said from [NON-ENGLISH]. I had never heard
of [NON-ENGLISH],, and I thought it was
a town or something, but later on, my daughter found
out it was a whole area called [NON-ENGLISH]. So and I said, how
come you're all alone? You travel alone? He says, no, we were with
my parents, with my mother, they said. We were with my mother,
but our train was bombed and we got separated. They were non-Jewish people. [PAUSES FOR 5 SECONDS] So we spoke to him, and then
the train started to go. And they said, we're
going to go to Dresden, [PAUSES FOR 4 SECONDS]
that in Dresden, there is a camp where
they're going to collect us-- [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] the
people from [NON-ENGLISH],, not us. We were, we were escapees. And then they will try
to get their parents, to find the parents
for, for these children. So we went with them. [PAUSES FOR 4 SECONDS] And I don't remember where
we stopped before Dresden. But when we came to Dresden,
[PAUSES FOR 5 SECONDS] my friend and I went
to the Kommandantur. That means to the highest
Nazi that was there. And I came in. I said-- we had
private clothes on. I told you, we stole the
clothes in the Kanada. I Said, heil, Hitler. And he said, yes? I said, I am from [NON-ENGLISH],,
no idea that that was not a city. I'm [NON-ENGLISH],, and my train
was bombed and I don't know where my mother is, both of us. But my friend-- I had hair. My hair was never cut,
but my hair-- my friend had very short hair,
but she wore a kerchief. And I said, if
anyone asks, you say, oh, my mother cut my
hair because I had lice. I said, you must say that. She says, of course. That's no, no question. But I let my hair-- I, I made-- I made braids. I had like little braids. And he says, oh, I heard. I heard. It's all right. He says, we will
find your mother. Don't worry. I said, but you know, my
father is stationed in Vienna. We would like to go to Vienna
to my father, to be sure. He called over two, two-- [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS]
from the boys-- what were they called-- the Hitler Youth. He called over two boys
and he says, get the girls on the train to Vienna. He was happy he got rid of us. He had so many people
to take care of. And he says, I'm sure you'll
find your father there. Heil, Hitler. Heil, Hitler. We got into the train
[PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] and we were fine. And just before Vienna,
a conductor came. Tickets. [PAUSES FOR 3
SECONDS] No tickets. Well, it stopped in Vienna. He says we need tickets. There was a woman with, I don't
know, five kids and luggage. And we said, can we help you? We took the luggage. We helped her. And then when they said-- I said, Mother is over there. You ask her. Go. The moment he turned
around, we went out. We arrived on the
Franz Josef Bahnhof. That was exactly across from
where I originally lived, so I know my way around. So did my friend, but
to whom are we going? What are we doing? Like I said, I know
that in our building there is one lady, Frau Friedl. I know she-- her
daughter married a Jew, that she would be nice to us. But it is dangerous to
go into our building because there were
such Nazis in there. But Ruth says, but I-- my father has friends,
and they don't know. They are half Jewish,
but nobody knows because they are from upper
Austria and lower Austria. They are not born in Vienna. So she says, let's, go to them. They help me. So we went-- we went
to these people. And I remember who opened the
door, and her name was Frieda. And I really have a picture of
her, but I didn't take it out. I should show that picture
because that lady was so good. She says, Ruth, Ruth, but
I'm so happy to see you. Come in. And Ruth says, but
I am not alone. I have my friend with me. She says, come on in. Come on in. And she was baking something. She right away gave us things,
and they was so lovely. Their name was Karl
and Frieda Humberger. INT: How, how would
you spell that? Do you know? JS: H-U-M-B-E-R-G-E-R. INT: And I'm not sure I heard
you say Ruth's last name. Ruth, what was her name? JS: Ruth Korkus. Korkus. INT: And how do
you spell Korkus? JS: K-O-R-K-U-S. Something
like this, I don't remember. Well-- INT: OK.
Thank you. JS: I don't know if her
sister is alive in California. Her sister's name was Vera. I know the last time
I heard about her was that she was in a home. She was going, getting blind. Her sister was younger than her. Her sister was born in '28 and
Ruth was born in '23, like me. So I don't know if her sister is
alive, but she was in the home. She was getting blind. And-- INT: How did you feel
arriving at this house where there was, you know, people
baking and, you know, they were-- did you-- JS: They were very,
very good people. They, they couldn't
have been better. I was really a stranger. I mean, they knew Ruth,
but I was a stranger. They were very anti the Germans. And of course, she was
half-Jewish, but nobody knew. I should have had
the picture here. I have a picture of her because
she was such a marvelous lady. And they took us in. They had three children,
one 12-year-old who lived with her mother
who was not far from her. She lived-- she had an
apartment where you worked in like a store, and
the main thing. [PAUSES FOR 4 SECONDS] And [PAUSES FOR 4 SECONDS] she
told us to come in and that we can stay here because she will
go to Upper Austria or Lower Austria-- I don't remember-- away,
because the Russians were coming closer and
closer and there was shooting over our heads. So-- but she says, but
she said to Ruth, you and your friend can
stay here if you want. And Ruth says, yeah, we want. We have nowhere else to go. And she let us
stay, and they went. She, [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS]
she had the 12-year-old. That was-- [PAUSES
FOR 4 SECONDS] I don't remember the name. Then she had another little boy
called Walter and a little girl called Traude. [PAUSES FOR 8 SECONDS] And because they
were such good people but they had such bad luck. The little girl got-- not [INAUDIBLE]---- [PAUSES
FOR 4 SECONDS] one of the very bad children's
sicknesses, and she died, and so did the little boy. But the oldest one, who
stayed with the grandmother, did not get sick. He was the only one who made it. But she was still young. Later on she had one more boy. And then now, when she gave
him the name, she wanted-- one of her friends said
she will name the kid, but she wanted to
name-- it was a boy. She wanted to give her
a name which was a girl. So Frieda said, no, and
she gave me the baby. And I named him Heinz. Not that I knew a Heinz,
but I named him Heinz. And she said, yeah,
I like that name. And they are alive. That was in 1944. So Heinz would be 70-something
some odd years, if he's alive. [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS]
I hope he's alive. And he got married
and has children. I hope the best for them. INT: So were, were you
there when the war ended? JS: I was in Vienna
when the war ended. We lived in Vienna. And then we got an apartment. We lived with this
people, and then Ruth got it from
the Kultusgemeinde, from the Jewish, I don't know. In Germany it's
the Kultusgemeinde what took care of the thing. And we got an apartment. [PAUSES FOR 4 SECONDS] And then I did some-- we had some-- we had to
make some money to live, so I did some translation. Then I still could speak French. My English wasn't so
great, but I made-- I, I made-- he was a
colonel and it was his-- he had a girl whom he wanted
to marry, or whatever, and she spoke German. And I made all the translation. He wrote the letter. I translated it,
and he sent it out. What was his name? [PAUSES FOR 9 SECONDS] I know his name. [PAUSES FOR 5 SECONDS] I don't know. I must ask Heidi. Maybe I told her. I'm sure I told her. INT: And what was Vienna
like after the war? JS: Oh, nobody was a Nazi there. Everybody had hated Hitler, and
they were so sorry he came in. INT: Now, did you
ever go, go back to see your family's
apartment or the, the furniture store
that your family owned? JS: I tried once, but they
said that they got it through-- honestly, they paid for it. Not to my family
they paid for it. Whatever. But we had the apartment
that was together with Ruth. And it was all right with me. Whatever. I didn't want to have any-- I didn't ever look, I think,
in the [NON-ENGLISH] about the store, the furniture store. And I never wanted to go there. [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] But-- [PAUSES FOR 5 SECONDS] Let me see. I think the stores were
taken over by Gustel. That was somebody whom I knew. Because he, he used to-- my father had a car. Not that he was a rich
man, but we had furniture, and somebody didn't pay and
gave him the car for it. And it was an old,
whatever it was. I don't know, a Steyr. [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] And Gustel used to-- my
father couldn't drive, so Gustel used to drive. And I remember when
we were after Gustel-- Gustel, still take us
to school or pick us up. Can you pick us up? And he said, no, only if
your father allows it. But he didn't ask. My father would never
have permitted it because it was for the business. But he used to--
once in a while, we got Gustel to do that. That was some of
the nicer things. [PAUSES FOR 4 SECONDS] But there wasn't too
much nice things there. I-- afterwards, everyone said
they weren't a Nazi and they weren't-- no one-- they loved it. They were terrible. They were all liars. They hated the Jews,
and they took away because we are-- all
the doctors were Jews. They were aware of that. There were a lot of
doctors that were Jews. And there was a
very famous doctor, like Dr. Freud, Sigmund Freud. And think about some very famous
doctors, and they were Jewish. That was true. But they had the
same opportunity to study if they wanted. [PAUSES FOR 10 SECONDS] Well-- INT: So you, you
received some help from Jewish agencies in
Vienna when you returned? JS: When we returned, we-- there were care packages. They gave us-- was
that, every month? I don't remember. But we got packages. And then for-- from one
package of rice, I sold it. I could pay a whole
month for our apartment. And then [PAUSES FOR 4 SECONDS]
my, my mother's cousin's son-- no, my first-- this way-- my father had a friend who
was [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] a diplomat. [PAUSES FOR 4 SECONDS] I
think his name was Krauss. K-R-A-U-S-S,
Something like that. I wouldn't swear to
it, but I think so. And I don't know how
we found him in Vienna. And he said that he's going-- he was going to Hungary. He was involved with Hungary. And I said, I had family. I don't know if they're alive. But he says he can
take us as secretaries. He took Ruth and me. And I was looking up--
their name was Halpern. [PAUSES FOR 4 SECONDS] And I saw-- I was looking for [? Laszlo ?]
Halpern, [? Joe ?] Halpern, or Michael Halpern. And I saw there was
[? Joe ?] Halpern. I said, well, let's try that. So we went there. knew, I knew the
cousin and I knew the-- his parents was
[? Herma ?] and Laura. And a lady opened the door. And I said to Ruth,
no, that's not-- I used to call her Aunt Laura. I said that's not my Aunt Laura. The lady looks at
me and she holds-- and I want to leave. And she holds on, and she
only speaks Hungarian. I said she definitely--
and Laura speaks German, besides Hungary. She didn't. She says, sit down. [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] We-- She gave us
coffee, or whatever. I don't remember,
maybe some cake. But she didn't let us leave. And then somebody came. And it was cousin Josip. Oh, my god. He cried when he saw me. You're left. You're the only one left. And he says, do you
know that your mother has an aunt in the United
States, and a cousin? I said, I know she has a cousin. I only know her name is Molly. Now, Molly in the United
States is really hard to find. He says, I have the address. He says, my brother is-- Michael-- was in the army
for the, with the English, or maybe with the Israelis. I don't remember. But he was in the army. He fought in the Second World
War against the Germans. And Josip said, he said that
he is going with his family, his brother is. Because he was in the
army, in the American Army, could bring him over. He didn't have to wrote
for a quota or anything. And so he gave me the
name of my mother's aunt. [PAUSES FOR 5 SECONDS] And he let his father in the
United States, and Michael, now that only one of
the family is left. And then they went-- and I, I came-- they were getting
me an affidavit. But they were really poor. They couldn't-- [PAUSES
FOR 3 SECONDS] maybe altogether they could
bring the money. But then they found
out I can come over as a displaced person, and
I came to the United States as a displaced person. INT: What year was that? JS: In [PAUSES FOR
7 SECONDS] '40-- '44? I don't know. I don't remember. I gave my children
the whole thing. And Then I came here. [PAUSES FOR 3
SECONDS] And she got me a job, [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS]
and it was in the factory. INT: In what, in what city? JS: In New York. They were New York,
although one of her sons lived in Pittsburgh. And I could have
gone to Pittsburgh. He had a bar, I think, there. [PAUSES FOR 4 SECONDS] But I worked. [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] The place
I worked for was [NON-ENGLISH].. And they made [PAUSES
FOR 3 SECONDS] needlepoint. You know what that is? [PAUSES FOR 4 SECONDS] So that's-- I was working in
the factory like six months. When it was Christmas,
Christmas, the big boss, [? David ?] [? Trom, ?]
came with his brother, the, the vice president. And then the vice president
in charge of all-- they had like
30-some odd salesmen. I have pictures of
this whole thing. And [PAUSES FOR 4
SECONDS] then he came by. He was very friendly
on Christmas. And then he heard that
he has one of the-- he was Jewish-- one of
the Jewish girls here. Then he came over and he says
to me, do you like it here? What do you think, I answered. Yes, but I am too smart
for what I'm doing. I swear. He looked at me. He says, what would
you like to do? Well, I would like to
sell in your showroom. [PAUSES FOR 4 SECONDS] He says, I have no say over it. I will tell Mr. Merritt that
was the one non-Jewish boss-- what you said. And he told me to
see Mr. Merritt, and he says, if he
want, we'll take you. So I went to Mr. Merritt. Every-- every one
of the salesmen were scared of Mr. Merritt. Oh, my god, what, what
kind of mood is he in? I said, oh, my god,
I have to go to-- but I went. And I said, I would like to
work, working the showroom. He says, you hardly
speak any English. I said, I know, but
I know how to sell. [LAUGHS] He says, tomorrow
you don't come here. You go to the showroom. [PAUSES FOR 4 SECONDS] Well, that's what I wanted. I am in the showroom,
and I remember the first buyer who came in. She was from Greensboro,
North Carolina, and her name was [? Irma ?]
[? Komschmidt. ?] I will never forget that. She came in. [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] What I did know
was our inventory. I remembered every design. We had hundreds of designs. I, I would get phone calls. Do you have something with
the red rose, with the blue? I would say, yes. It's a 36 by 36 canvas. We have it in stock, or
we have it under order, or we don't get it anymore. They couldn't believe that I
could remember the whole line. And I did very, very good. And when I got married
and my husband said, you don't got to go to work, I
don't need that, the big boss, [? David ?] [? Trom, ?]
called and says, aren't you coming back? I said my husband
wouldn't let me. He was really mad at my husband. [LAUGHS] So-- INT: Could you tell me about
your husband, how you met, and tell me his name and
a little bit about him? JS: Yeah. Aaron [? Herbert ?] Spiegel. No, he was an American. He was born in America. So was his mother. [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS]
But his father was really from Poland, who came here in,
I think, during the First World War, and married his
mother, who was an American, and he was born here. [PAUSES FOR 5 SECONDS] When I met him, he worked
for his father in sales. [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS]
He was the only son, and he had two sisters. They both were older. He was the baby. [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] Now his oldest sister
moved then to Israel, where I now have relatives. She died, and so
did her husband. But her daughter-- the
oldest sister was-- her daughter was
[? Celia. ?] She died, but they had children. I have now relatives in Israel. My husband has relatives in
Israel, which is very nice. We went to Israel
and I met them. I was in Israel twice. INT: And do you have
children as well? You have children? JS: My-- INT: You had children
with your husband? JS: I have three children. My oldest is Heidi, is a girl. She was born in '57, in '57. My son Jeffrey was
born 16 months later. And then three years
later, after my son, I had my youngest
daughter, Caren. Now, Heidi is married. She has one son, Harry. And I thought you
would meet him, but he's involved in something. He's into politics. [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] I said, he will never get any
worse, because he's so liberal. I said, the American people
do not go for such liberal like you are. But it is nice that
he's so liberal. And then-- [PAUSES
FOR 4 SECONDS] that is Heidi. Then Jeffrey has three children. I think you met Grace. Then he has a son,
Justin, who is a lawyer. And then he has Grace, who
was a teacher until she got married, a teacher in New York. And then she could have
been a teacher anywhere. She came from a very
good college and very-- but Jeffrey wanted
her to do that. He wanted her. And his youngest daughter
is a lawyer, too, and Jeffrey made her work, for
a year or two years, pro bono. He says, you cannot charge. You do-- INT: And, and-- JS: And now she-- INT: And what's her-- JS: Now she charges. Now she-- INT: OK. And what's her name,
Jeffrey's youngest? What's her name? JS: Let me see. Sophie. Sophie. INT: Sophie. JS: Yeah. And for two years or so,
he didn't let her charge. He had to do-- she had to do pro bono things,
which I think is very nice. Right now he didn't
need it and she didn't. He could afford, you know,
to keep his children, so let them do good, good deeds. This country was good to her
mother, to his mother, right? So he did the right thing. So these are my two. INT: And your youngest
daughter, Caren? JS: My youngest
daughter has two girls. [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS]
The older one-- both are extremely bright. The older one went to
Princeton and works for Google. Still-- when she was
still in college, she worked for Google
already, and since then has. And the younger one
went to the film school in [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS]
the University of Southern California, which has the
best film school, and-- because she likes to write. I mean, she don't
want to play in films. That, no-- she likes to write. But up till-- it's very
hard to get into that. There is a lot of competition. But up till now, she got
one little thing written that was really played. It was some dialogue
between two little dogs. But she was very proud of it,
that she finally got something on TV, or whatever. So-- INT: Now where--
did you-- did you talk to your family
about your experiences? Were you able to tell them
what happened to you in Europe? JS: I definitely talked to my
oldest daughter and to Jeffrey, and my younger
daughter, too, knew. The children knew I had-- my friend who did not
want to talk to her kids, she felt that was-- I could understand that. But I said, you know, if I
don't talk to them about it, then it can happen again. Let them know what can
happen if you're not careful, if there-- if somebody like
Trump comes, get them out. [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS]
That's not good for us. [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] So the children, yeah, and
grandchildren, too, they know. We went to Auschwitz,
to see Auschwitz. And [PAUSES FOR 4
SECONDS] the first time I think Justin was there. I went twice. I went to the 70th birthday of-- one I, I took [? Gracie, ?]
Grace, the one what was here, and, [PAUSES FOR 4
SECONDS] and Harry. That is Heidi's son. But my younger daughter's
kids did not go. I don't think they
ever went to Auschwitz. But they know. They know. They studied about it. INT: How did you feel going
back there after so many years? JS: I went back there like-- [PAUSES FOR 4
SECONDS] how do you feel when you go back
to visit the cemetery and your parents
are buried there? That's how I felt. And it's-- and it's something I
have to do to honor all the people who died there. [PAUSES FOR 4 SECONDS] And I took the-- my children, so don't you
ever forget what can happen. [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS]
They wouldn't. They would never
forget any of it. They were brought up like this. And my older daughter,
[PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] when the trial of-- [PAUSES FOR 4 SECONDS] what was
the famous trial the Nazi did, that Israel had them, [PAUSES
FOR 4 SECONDS] the head of the-- of the SS? [PAUSES FOR 4 SECONDS] Eichmann. The Eichmann trial. Do you remember that? INT: Mhm. JS: Heidi was six years old. I put her on the couch
and I said, sweetheart, let's watch the television. Mommy has to tell you something. I said, you see that man? He's the meanest
man in the world. I said there was one
more mean than this one. He's dead. His name was Hitler. But Eichmann is on
trial now because he killed a lot of Jewish people. And we are Jews. And she sat to-- I don't know. I must have-- it was terrible. Why did I do that to my kid? But she remember--
you will talk to her. I did that to her. Jeffrey was too small. [PAUSES FOR 3
SECONDS] Heidi was six and Jeffrey was like
three years old. I didn't make him. But Heidi was six years. She saw the-- when she
talks to people, she said, oh, I saw the trial of
Eichmann on television. They can't believe it. I said, yeah, they believe it. You have a crazy mother
who made you watch it. But I think she
will never forget that she watched that trial. [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS]
But I don't regret it. She saw the meanest
man alive at the time. INT: So Jeanette,
could I ask you, you know, before we
end the interview, if you have a message
that you would like to say to the future generations? You know, what, what,
what do you think you would want to say to them? JS: I would say to them that
they must be very careful. Never let something
happen like this again, that when they see somebody
wants the power so much, that is never good. That should never be a
dictator because under a-- you should always
be able to vote, and whoever got the
most votes will be-- and it is good
that is four years. And if he's-- if the person is
good, it will be eight years. And then I think Washington
made such a great decision that he did not
want to be forever the head of that state, that
he made it that eight years. Because nobody should
be there forever. They become dictators,
no matter how-- even if they're
benevolent dictators, you do not want that. So they should be very careful. And we have a Mr.
Trump now, Mr. Trump. And please, don't
let that man get-- it is terrible that he
became our president, but enough was enough. And I like Mr.
Biden, who took over. And I think he is very nice. and he treats the
people equally, good if they are good, bad. I like the way it is here. INT: And Jeanette, you
know, this last year we had a terrible
pandemic, and I'm wondering how it was for you. Was it a difficult time for you? JS: Well, I didn't get sick. I have a daughter who
would like to wrap me in-- in cotton and not let me talk. Don't talk. Heidi is so protective
that I can't tell you. She is something
very, very special. No, you cannot go
shopping, Mommy. Yeah, I do it. I do it. You stay here. Don't talk to everybody. [LAUGHS] I said, you become
a little dragon. You don't let me do anything. She says, everything
will be all right, Mommy. You're going to do it again. [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS]
Yeah, she's very good, all my children. Jeffrey is very
protective of me. I might not look
like this, but, oh. INT: Good. Well, I hope you are going to
have your vaccinations, and-- JS: I had them. I finished. INT: Good. OK, good. I'm very glad to hear that. JS: Heidi-- INT: So Jeanette-- I'm sorry. JS: Heidi got me in there
the moment they opened it. She took hers later, but
she brought me immediately. INT: So Jeanette,
is there anything else you could think
of that you would like to add to this
interview before we bring your children on? JS: No, I think I
told you everything. And of course, do not let a
dictator ever, ever get there. Because no-- no matter
how benevolent he looks, there should never be that only
one person makes the decision and you cannot get rid of him. INT: Yes. JS: If the president
makes a decision, we never going to vote,
that it's no good, he will never-- he
will be voted out. That's how it should be. INT: Yes. And I think we can, we can
also do some photographs. Do you have some
pictures that you want to include on the interview? JS: Let me see what I have here. Well, [PAUSES FOR
4 SECONDS] this is my mother in the
dark on the corner. INT: OK you know, I'm not sure. Someone's going to
have to help with the-- yeah. JS: I don't know where they are. [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] Yeah. Oh. That's my father in
the First World War. INT: OK, hold on. JS: Good? That's my sister and me. INT: And can you tell me,
again, your sister's name? JS: Irma. I-R-M-A. INT: Yeah. And when was that picture taken? JS: When I was three years old. So [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS]
I'm now 97 and I was three. INT: And, and
where was it taken? JS: In Vienna. INT: And how do you
have that picture? JS: When I came to the United
States, my great aunt had it. My mother sent her
pictures of her children and my great aunt
preserved them. And when she died, she-- I inherited these pictures. And I have my mother
[PAUSES FOR 6 SECONDS] in the dark dress. That's my mother. [PAUSES FOR 4 SECONDS]
Where is my daddy? INT: OK, can we talk
about this picture? She's in the dark dress? JS: Yeah. INT: And can you say her-- could
you say her name again, please, your mother's name? JS: [? Ita. ?] I-T-A. INT: And her maiden name? JS: Her maiden name
was Taub, T-A-U-B. INT: And, and when do you
think that picture was taken? JS: Oh, before I
was born definitely. INT: And who were the other
two people in that photo? JS: The one in the middle is
the wife, the mother of Josip, the cousin, the cousin that
got me with the family. And the, the other one
is my mother's cousin from the United States. INT: And her name again? JS: Let me see. The, one the Hungarian
one was Laura and [PAUSES FOR 4
SECONDS] Molly and Anna. That is Anna. INT: And what is
Anna's second name? JS: Grob. G-R-O-B. INT: And when do you think-- that was taken
before you were born. And where were they? Was this also in Vienna? JS: They were in Vienna. [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS]
That was before she came to the United States. [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] And--
and Laura went back to Hungary. She lived in Hungary. But I have something,
[PAUSES FOR 5 SECONDS] which, which is a letter [PAUSES
FOR 3 SECONDS] that-- [PAUSES FOR 8
SECONDS] who wrote it? Mommy-- my mother
wrote to the great aunt in the United States, and my
sister wrote in English on it. The letter it
addresses is in German, but whatever my sister
wrote is in English because she took
English in school. INT: What does it-- what does it say? What does the letter say? JS: Heidi, what's in the-- you'll have to open it. And I need glasses
because I can't-- I don't want it to fall apart. It is very old. [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] It
is something where the-- 'Dear cousin'-- [PAUSES
FOR 4 SECONDS] I have no glasses. I can't read. She writes in, in German. [PAUSES FOR 5 SECONDS] I have to be careful. [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS]
But my, my sister might have written in English. [PAUSES FOR 11 SECONDS] Can you see, darling? Is that English? That's my sister. Yeah. I can't see. I can't read it. But that's-- my
sister had English. I had French in school. She had English. So she wrote in English. [PAUSES FOR 4 SECONDS]
She wrote to my great-- for her, that was a
great, great aunt. [PAUSES FOR 4 SECONDS] What does it say? [PAUSES FOR 11 SECONDS] 'Dear cousin,' [PAUSES FOR 11 SECONDS] You don't know how happy
we are to hear from you.' That's translated. It's in German. But that's about the-- from mother. [PAUSES FOR 4 SECONDS] 'For my daughter, Irma,' She
must have sent a letter maybe to my sister. INT: Oh, does the letter
have a date on it? JS: Yeah. Can you see? It has. [PAUSES FOR 9 SECONDS] You want my glasses? GRACE HUTCHER: May
21, 1939, Vienna. JS: Is Heidi here? Maybe she-- GRACE HUTCHER: I read it. It's May 21st. JS: You know the date? GRACE HUTCHER: Yeah. JS: Yeah. She, she can read the date. I can't see it. GRACE HUTCHER: Yeah, sorry. JS: [? Gracie. ?] GRACE HUTCHER: Yes? JS: Please tell them
what the date is. GRACE HUTCHER: It's
May-- it's May 21, 1939, and it says Vienna at the top. INT: Is, is it possible to
read the-- just the English part of it? JS: All this is in German. Wait. The English part
is only my sister. My parents did
not speak English. Here, my sister write-- no, she-- she studied English. Did she write in English? Or-- GRACE HUTCHER: This is English. JS: Oh, she did write. GRACE HUTCHER: Yeah. JS: You have to read it. I can't see. GRACE HUTCHER: OK. 'My dear cousin, I was
very surprised as I have'-- JS: It's just thanking them? GRACE HUTCHER: Yeah, I'm-- I'm reading it. 'My dear cousin, I
was very surprised as I have got an
affidavit from you. I-- I shan't go to
America so quickly. I'm sorry because I
must wait for my quota. I don't know how long it will
last, but I hope not very long. I thank you very much
for your great trouble, and I wish to see you
as soon as possible. Hearty greetings for all. From your cousin Irma.' JS: She took English in
school, but in my school, they gave French. You took-- but it was good for
me because I went to Belgium. INT: So, so now,
Jeanette, I think it would be good to see, to have
your family come around you. Moira, is that possible? [? MOIRA: ?] There
are more photos. Zepporah, I think there
are more photos, too. INT: Oh, there's more photos? I'm sorry. Yeah. Is there another one? JS: That's my father. [PAUSES FOR 7 SECONDS] [INAUDIBLE]? INT: Yeah, could you
tell us his name, too? JS: Yeah. [? Oscar. ?] Osias. We call him [? Ossie. ?] INT: And when do you think
that picture was taken? JS: Before I was
born because he's-- it must have been during World
War I, [PAUSES FOR 4 SECONDS] because that's the only
time he wore a uniform. He was in World War I. INT: And, and
where was it taken? JS: It must have
been taken in Vienna. INT: OK. Is there another picture? Is that-- is that the last one
or is there another picture? GRACE HUTCHER: She has one-- JS: [? Gracie, ?] what
is the picture from? GRACE HUTCHER: That's
Grandpa's birthday. That's Grandpa's birthday. JS: What? GRACE HUTCHER: Grandpa's
birthday a few years ago. JS: It's the whole, the family. GRACE HUTCHER: Yeah. JS: But what did we celebrate? GRACE HUTCHER:
Grandpa's birthday. Grandpa's 90th birthday. JS: I can't hear you. GRACE HUTCHER:
Grandpa's 90th birthday. [PAUSES FOR 3
SECONDS] His birthday. JS: Oh, Grandpa's 65th birthday? 60th? GRACE HUTCHER: 90. Forget it. JS: 90th birthday. I know there was a big
party, and I gave him a party on his 60th. HEIDI SPIEGEL: I
know, but this is-- JS: This is the 90th. HEIDI SPIEGEL: This
is the one-- right. This is his 90th at Club
A, at Club A Steakhouse. JS: Yeah, there's all my
grandchildren are there. Absolutely. His 90th birthday. [PAUSES FOR 6 SECONDS] But Grandpa is now 92. HEIDI SPIEGEL: Right,
so it's two years ago. JS: It was 90? INT: Can you show that
photo, also, to the camera? JS: Where's Mommy? GRACE HUTCHER: Hmm? [? Hold on. ?] [INAUDIBLE]? JS: Yeah. That's my mother, my father. [PAUSES FOR 4 SECONDS] [? Beri, ?] my
dog, is in Europe. He's not there anymore. He would be very old. But that was in Europe. INT: And, and when, when
was that picture taken? JS: When did I have [? Beri? ?] [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] In-- in '50-- no, '40. HEIDI SPIEGEL: Yeah. JS: Later? HEIDI SPIEGEL: No, earlier. JS: When did I come here? HEIDI SPIEGEL: '49. JS: In '49 I came. So [? Beri ?] must have
been there in '44, '45. HEIDI SPIEGEL: Well,
no, Mother, that's when you were in
Auschwitz. [? Beri ?] must have been like in '47. JS: In '47. I don't remember. I know I had a dog. He was very cute and very
good, very well-behaved. [PAUSES FOR 9 SECONDS] Now I have a cat. GRACE HUTCHER: Those
are all the old ones. JS: I like cats because
they saved my life. GRACE HUTCHER: Yeah,
those are all old ones. INT: So [? Moira, ?]
should we do the family? [? MOIRA: ?] Sure. Yeah, I think we can. So, we're just going to-- JS: Where is everybody? INT: OK. You can do a pause. [? MOIRA: ?] Pause, yeah,
we're going to pause. INT: So Jeanette, could you
introduce your family to us? JEFFREY SPIEGEL:
She can't hear you. GRACE HUTCHER: Can
you introduce us? INT: Oh, OK. Well, maybe someone could
take over and just tell us who everybody is. JEFFREY SPIEGEL: No, stop. JS: Well, yes INT: [? Moira, ?] I-- JS: I will start
with my husband. INT: OK. JS: That's my husband,
Aaron [? Herbert ?] Spiegel. My oldest daughter,
Heidi [? Jo ?] Spiegel. My granddaughter-- [? Gracie, ?]
what's your middle name? GRACE HUTCHER: [? Alexi. ?] JS: [? Gracie ?] [? Alexi. ?] GRACE HUTCHER: Hutcher, yeah. JS: Hutch-- Hutcher. GRACE HUTCHER: Hutcher. JS: That's right,
are you married. GRACE HUTCHER: Yes.
Yes. JS: You are not a
Spiegel anymore. GRACE HUTCHER: No. JS: My son, Jeffrey
[? Owen ?] Spiegel. INT: And are, is your-- JS: The rest of the
family is not here. I have a much bigger family. INT: And would anyone like to
talk a little bit about, you know, your grandmother and
fill in a little bit more into this interview? JEFFREY SPIEGEL: [INAUDIBLE] . HEIDI SPIEGEL: Well, I
don't know where to start. So obviously, we're very close. I take care of my parents. I'm lucky enough to live
in the same building, and they helped
raise my son, Harry, because I was a
single mom through-- from the time he
was two years old. So we're very tight. But I have to correct. The Eichmann trial, I was three. I was not six,
because I remember watching it like yesterday. And [PAUSES FOR 3
SECONDS] my mom, who I put on Facebook every
now and then, always-- all my friends, from the time-- I guess from the time,
seventh grade it started, she would go in every
year and speak in classes. And to this day, every
time I post her photo-- or it was just their
anniversary, their 65th wedding anniversary yesterday. And immediately,
someone will pipe in, I will never forget
hearing your mom relay-- relate-- relay her stories
to us in history class. And she, she made
them very accessible. AARON SPIEGEL: Look at the snow. HEIDI SPIEGEL: And
there's snowing out. [LAUGHTER] And so I-- I just-- JS: [INAUDIBLE]. HEIDI SPIEGEL: --I
take care of my mom, not just because I adore her. She's my mom, but because
I've been entrusted with a piece of history. And my friends remind me, every
time when I post her picture, and how she touched their lives. And many of them say she
changed their lives of who, who they grew up to be,
hearing her stories. [PAUSES FOR 4
SECONDS] That's it. INT: Thank you. JS: [INAUDIBLE]. INT: And Grace or Jeffrey,
do you want to add something? GRACE HUTCHER: Yeah. Sure, I guess. She also spoke to
my class, which was a really incredible
experience for me and my fellow
classmates, especially because of the distance
from, you know, when she spoke to my class. You know, not everyone
knows someone who, you know, was affected, like, by
the Holocaust as much. And so it was a really,
I think like Heidi said, accessible way to hear things. And just in general,
growing up, I've always been so amazed
hearing her stories about how strong she was. And it's kind of crazy. I mean, you heard the
stories, that she was doing such like bad, badass things. [LAUGHS] Sorry. But yeah, doing such crazy
things when she was younger to survive. And you know, it's, it's
really an honor to, you know, have that DNA. And I need to clarify. So I stopped teaching
because I had a baby, and now I'm in school
for speech pathology. I didn't stop teaching
because I got married. Just that's my clarification. [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] OK. JEFFREY SPIEGEL: So, you
know, as I think you, you heard, family is
very, very important to my mother, and her loss
of family, and the fact that she views her children,
her grandchildren, and now her great grandchildren as
part of the rebuilding process. In fact, she calls Grace's
daughter number 11, because she has 11 blood
relatives in the world, and this is part of
the rebuilding process. JS: I have another one soon. HEIDI SPIEGEL: Another one soon. JEFFREY SPIEGEL: And another
one coming in six weeks. HEIDI SPIEGEL: I do have
to say-- and I should also, and I think everyone
will say, we should never miss out on this. What made-- from the
other Holocaust survivors that I met, what made my mom
different was very often, they viewed
themselves as victims. My mother looked at life
as she made it through. She had us. She's-- but we always kid
around, she's the winner. So-- and she's
viewed all her life as that she's the winner
because, she she's here. JS: I beat Hitler. HEIDI SPIEGEL: That's it. So-- and lived-- and has lived
a great life, a grateful life. GRACE HUTCHER: When you
met [? Ivy, ?] my daughter, we were in the hospital. Grandma was holding her
and just looks at [? Ivy ?] and says like, I won. I won. HEIDI SPIEGEL: And I understood
my father used to tell me that's what she did. When, when I was first born,
she held me and she used to say, I'm the winner. [LAUGHS] INT: That's so lovely. Thank you so much. You know, this-- this was-- JS: I beat Hitler. HEIDI SPIEGEL: Mm-hmm. JEFFREY SPIEGEL: Thank you. We appreciate the opportunity. INT: This was really my
honor, my honor, really, you know, to interview you. Thank you so much, Jeanette,
and your whole family. Jeanette, could you tell
us who this picture is of? JEFFREY SPIEGEL: Who is that? JS: That was made when I worked. I advertised. I was in needlepoint. The firm produced needlepoint,
and there was a television to advertise it, and that
was the official picture. INT: And what year was
that picture taken? JEFFREY SPIEGEL: What year? JS: Who remembers? I used to work still. HEIDI SPIEGEL: It was like '54. JEFFREY SPIEGEL: Around 1954. INT: And where was it taken? JS: '53, '54. HEIDI SPIEGEL: PR,
I think it's her-- JEFFREY SPIEGEL: Where,
where, was it taken? HEIDI SPIEGEL: That
was your PR shot. JS: Yeah. JEFFREY SPIEGEL:
Where was it taken? JS: I don't remember. JEFFREY SPIEGEL: In
New York it was taken. JS: In New York, yeah. My-- the firm wanted it. I-- I didn't pay for that. HEIDI SPIEGEL: No,
it's your PR shot. You had [INAUDIBLE]. JS: They-- where I worked,
the people paid for it. INT: Yeah. Is there, is there another
photo that we wanted to see? GRACE HUTCHER: I think
we kind of covered it, unless there are ones that you
can think of that you want. HEIDI SPIEGEL:
Well, did she show-- can't we show just the thing
to say we're all in Kraków? GRACE HUTCHER: Oh, yeah. That was another correction
I just wanted to make. We, all of the grandchildren,
did go to Auschwitz to visit with her. We didn't leave anyone behind. JS: My grandchildren. HEIDI SPIEGEL: And this is
the photo of [INAUDIBLE].. JEFFREY SPIEGEL: Yeah,
that's the Kraków. GRACE HUTCHER: Oh, that one. HEIDI SPIEGEL: Show it
and tell who it is and-- JS: And I don't have my
great grandchildren in there. HEIDI SPIEGEL: And so this
is all the grandchildren in Kraków. INT: All right, OK. Could you, could you say
the names of everybody. Start from the
left to the right. GRACE HUTCHER: Left to right. So Grandma. JEFFREY SPIEGEL:
Say their names. GRACE HUTCHER: Oh,
wait, left to right. Sorry. JS: What does she want to know? JEFFREY SPIEGEL: Who's that? Just say who it is. JS: My-- my oldest
grandson, Justin. Justin Spiegel,
and Jeffrey's son. [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] Then
that's you, sweetheart. GRACE HUTCHER: Yes. JS: Then that is Grace,
also Jeffrey's daughter. Then that is Samantha, my
younger daughter's daughter. [PAUSES FOR 3
SECONDS] Who's that? GRACE HUTCHER: Sophie. JS: Sophie. That is the youngest of Jeffrey. GRACE HUTCHER: Michelle. HEIDI SPIEGEL: Michelle. JS: That is Michelle, the
youngest of my youngest, younger daughter. And the one tall grandchild
I have is Heidi's son. HEIDI SPIEGEL: And
what's his name? JEFFREY SPIEGEL:
What's his name? HEIDI SPIEGEL: What's his name? JS: Oh, Harry. Not Harry. GRACE HUTCHER: [? Harrison. ?] JS: [? Harrison. ?] HEIDI SPIEGEL: [? Harrison. ?] GRACE HUTCHER: [? Harrison. ?] JS: His name is [? Harrison. ?] INT: And where was that taken? GRACE HUTCHER: Where? This was in Kraków. JS: Yeah. HEIDI SPIEGEL: It was in Kraków
when we went as a whole family to visit Auschwitz with her. GRACE HUTCHER: Yeah. INT: And what year was that? GRACE HUTCHER: 2000-- JEFFREY SPIEGEL:
Seven years ago. She just, she was
going to turn 90 and we went a couple
of months before. It was for her 90th birthday. GRACE HUTCHER: So let's do math. JEFFREY SPIEGEL:
So that was in-- HEIDI SPIEGEL: July. JEFFREY SPIEGEL: What? HEIDI SPIEGEL: July or August. JEFFREY SPIEGEL: That was '04. GRACE HUTCHER: OK, 2014. JEFFREY SPIEGEL: '14. GRACE HUTCHER: 2014. JS: I'm 97 now,
so figure it out. INT: [LAUGHS] JEFFREY SPIEGEL: Right, 2014. GRACE HUTCHER: 2014. JEFFREY SPIEGEL:
July, July of 2014. INT: Great. OK. Thank you again. Jeanette, it was my honor
to, to be your interviewer. It was so wonderful to meet you,
even though it's just virtual. JS: We all want to thank you-- INT: But I feel like-- I feel like if I was there,
I would give you a hug. JS: --to other people that
they know what can happen. INT: Yes. Yes, definitely. OK, I'm turning off
my, my recorder. JEFFREY SPIEGEL: Thank so much.
