>> Rumaan Alam: Welcome to
the National Book Festival. My name is Rumaan Alam, i"m an
editor at the New York Times, and it is such a
pleasure to be here. I was saying to one of the -- one of the women working
the event that I've been to a lot of book festivals. And I expected something
really sedate and quiet with like a few -- a few old
ladies with tote bags walking down the hall, and it's
like Black Friday out there. Which is an amazing -- which
is testament to what kind of a literary city
Washington D.C. is. And so, I'm really happy to be
here, and it's really a pleasure to share the stage
with Sujatha Gidla, who has written a beautiful book
called Ants among Elephants: An Untouchable Family and
the Making of Modern India. I have a million
questions for Sujatha, and I'm sure you will as well. So, about fifteen minutes
before we wrap up, I'll open it up to questions from
the audience. But we're going to begin by
listening to Sujatha read from her book and then I'm
going to drive her crazy with a million questions,
so, please. >> Sujatha Gidla: Hi everybody. So, the book is Ants
among Elephants, this is my family
biography that intersects with the you could
say biography India -- of India, Independent India. And I want to start with the -- this section that
describes my uncle's wedding. He was 25, 24 years old and
the wedding is taking place in a village, and this is about the preparation
of the wedding feast. In fact, somebody
actually, you know, suggested that I send this
excerpt to Food and Wine. >> Rumaan Alam: You should
-- oh, is this about the pig? >> Sujatha Gidla: Yeah. >> Rumaan Alam: Yes,
you should, you should. >> Sujatha Gidla: And it --
they would have been like, really horrified [inaudible]. So, all right. "On the morning of the wedding
Majula was walking by loud cries from the alley next to here
uncle Galea's[Phonetic] house in Sankarapuram . She sat up in fright and
started praying, "Oh, David, Jesus, Lord save us!" A cousin of hers sitting
nearby put her sari end to her mouth to hide her smile. What, papa? No need to be scared,
they're just chasing the pig." When Presenadro[Phonetic]
announced his son's wedding to the village, everyone
started drooling at that thought of the pig. A wedding in an untouchable
colony is a festival, and at the center of the
festival is the feast. At -- and at the center
of the feast is the pig. As soon as a match is fixed,
both the bride's house and the groom's house get
hold of a piglet by buying one in an untouchable market
or catching a stray. For weeks the families raise
their pigs with great care. A wedding pig is
no ordinary pig, it must be be treated
with respect. No one is allowed to
talk harshly to it, even if it should get n the way. "Hey, watch your mouth,
that's the wedding pig!" The families feed it
as well as they can, giving it starch water left
after rice is cooked to drink, or sometimes even [inaudible]. Most untouchable families don't
have that kind of food to spare. And the best thing about a pig
is that it can feed itself. The staple for pigs in India
is what's delicately called -- filth. They eat human shit. If the [inaudible]
family it too poor to feed their pig,
it's not a big deal. The pig simply goes around
the village eating shit and gets just as fat. Untouchables will often
marvel, shit it may beat, but a pig's meat is the
sweetest meat of all. But the announcement of
[inaudible]'s wedding meant more than just the prospect of pig. Presenadro had risen
above the condition of all those he left
behind in Sankarapuram . He was a teacher not a farmhand. He had lived in cities
and towns. He interacted with Caste people, with other educated
people, people with jobs. In the eyes of the villagers
he was a -- he was wealthy. He owned four and a
half acres of land. His son was the first ever to -- first ever college going
man from the village. And now that -- not the eldest and favorite son was getting
married, there would be a lot of pork at this feast. [inaudible] might even
get a pig that -- of -- pig of that exotic new breed. Only a year or two earlier, a new breed of pig had
arrived in the country. They're known as Semapundalu[Phonetic]
European pigs, they come from Russia. Some call them red pigs
because their skin is pink and hairless, and smooth. They're raised on farms in pens
not like loose in the streets. They're fed a calibrated diet
and grow many times fatter and larger than Indian pigs. In fact, they seem to
have nothing in common with the black, hairy,
filthy native pigs. But, whenever some -- whenever
anyone tries to raise one of these foreign
pigs on his own, pretty soon it loses
its caste and turns into an ordinary Indian pig. It's pink turning to black, it's
fat shrinking away as it runs through the street
wallowing in sewers and swallowing the effluvium. Everyone in Sankarapuram
looked forward to tasting a European pig
at [inaudible]'s wedding. But, Presendra[Phonetic] had -- Presendra's[Phonetic]
son had other ideas. When the matter of the pig came
up it pained Satyam[Phonetic] that his relatives were so
different from his cast friends. He had attended many of his friend's weddings
while living in Gurdwara. And except for
Nyteria[Phonetic], none of them had served meat. Meat is believed by
Hindus to be impure. Brahmins the purest
caste, eat no meat at all, not even fish or eggs. Untouchables, being impure
themselves eat even carian[beef] the flesh of cows that drop dead by the roadside of
age or disease. Which, since cows are sacred and cannot be slaughtered is
the only kind of beef that falls to human consumption
under Hindu law. Middle caste except for merchant
caste eat meat but never beef. And it is inauspicious
to serve any meat at all at births, funerals, or wedding. Satyam[Phonetic] considered it
uncultured and even barbaric to eat the flesh of a
pig on any occasion. A pig to a caste Hindu
is a symbol of filth. Untouchables are commonly
associated with two creatures, the craw -- the crow
for its blackness and the pig for its foulness. When people assembled under the
Banyan tree to plan the feast, Satyam[Phonetic] told them
there would be no pig. The elders took the
cigars out of their mouths. "What? What? A wedding feast with no pig?" Satyam[Phonetic] replied,
There won't beany meat." They couldn't believe
their ears. The most fabulous that they
would ever attend was turning out to be the worst
one they ever heard of. They wanted nothing
to do with it. Men, women, and children turned
and went home disappointed, but Satyam[Phonetic]
was unmoved. Discussion of the village -- discussion in the village
went on for several days. In the end, the elders
came to Presendro[Phonetic] with a proposal, "How about a
pig for the village and hens for the having red people?" that is educated people,
the educated ones. Satyam[Phonetic] said, "Never!" Presendro[Phonetic]
took his son's side, "He has stopped eating beef
in [inaudible] when had to hide his caste for the sake
of being allowed to rent a room in the house of a
caste in the family." And now, the very thought of
beef was revolting to him. He didn't mind pork himself, but he could understand
how his son felt. Instead of a pig, he had
bought sacks of vegetables and from some kamas[Phonetic],
whose children he taught in Thalipuru[Phonetic], some strange upper
caste flour based foods, uperdums[Phonetic]
and ladus[Phonetic]. The villagers decided to boycott
the wedding all together. One thing saved the day,
neither Presendro[Phonetic] nor Satyam[Phonetic] had a say in
what the bride's family could or could not serve
at their feast on the night of the wedding. Everyone knew
Kadumarah[Phonetic] had already been raising a pig for
the last few weeks. Whether Kadumarah
bought the pig -- bought his big or caught
it himself was not clear, but it was a black Indian pig. That was the pig the young men
of the village were chasing on the morning of the wedding when they woke Majula
with their cries. Majula went out to watch the
agile young men armed with long, thick sticks, and clenching
cigars between their molars, running through the village,
loin clothes pulled tight over their crotches and
between their buttocks, their bodies shiny with sweat. One carried a special net. The children of the village, 20,
30 of them naked, dust coated, wild haired, runny nosed. The girls among them
also all naked, but for their snail shell
anklets and the little silver or copper disks strung
around their waists to preserve their modesty. They ran along the hunters. Everyone was screaming as
loud as he or she could. And the pig was screeching
even louder. Wild with fear, it
whizzed passed the house like a cannonball, desperate
to escape the murderous youths. But a cloud of dust rose
beneath its hooves, and the feet of the men right behind. it. The pig is chased instead
of just being tied down and butchered to save its blood. The blood is what
makes it tasty. The idea is to scare the
pig with screams and cries and make it run for its life until it collapses
from exhaustion. In Sankarapardu[Phonetic]
that morning, young women and girls admired the muscles
rippling beneath the men's glistening brown skin as
they wielded their sticks. The women's eyes ran all over
the hunter's bodies taking in the smalls of their backs,
their thighs, their chests, their narrow waists, the
lips that held their cigars. Each thought fondly
of her own man -- each thought fondly how her own
man ran faster than the rest, how he tackled the pick
expertly to the ground. The men were aware the
women were watching, and they tried their
hardest to impress them. The pig ran and ran for half an
hour until it could run no more, and finally it dropped
to the ground. One hunter threw his
special net over it, and the others raised
their sticks and beat the animal
half conscious. They carried it to the
center of the village, and tied its snout shut
with a roop -- a rope. They tied its front
legs to a pole and stood it up on
its hind legs. The dazed pig looked
up at the sky. As a piglet grows in size,
its neck gets soon so fat that as long as it
lives, it is never able to lift its head
and look at the sky. But a wedding pig
in the last moments of its life gazes
skyward at last for the first time
and the last time. Untouchables will say,
untouchable man who has lived in poverty all his life,
never having had a moment of happiness, but for a
small respect at the end when his son gets a
job and is finally able to take care of his parents. [ Foreign Language Spoken ] Sujatha Gidla: This fellow
is like a pig, he saw the sky for the first time at
the end of his life. On that wedding morning,
the man responsible for preparing the pig gently
roasted the still living pig, and carried it to
the bride's house. For lack of cutting board, they
unhinged the front door of -- and laid the pig on it. Two elders, Uncle
Malayo[Phonetic] and cousin Abednego were invited to do the honors
and carve the pig. A few years before,
a Brahmin in Gurdwara who worshiped Gandhi had
spread the principles of nonviolence among all in
Sunri, especially the cruel and crude untouchables. One day, he found himself
in an untouchable colony where a feast was taking place. Before the men could
lay the pig on the door, the Brahmin pushed his way
forward and laid himself down in the pig's place. He wept, "How can anyone with a heart hurt
this voiceless animal? Are you not human? Haven't you heard the teachings
of our great spirit Gandhi? He pleaded with the
untouchables to cut himself up before they take a knife
to that creation of Gods. The youth in the colony full
drunk, pinned the Brahmin down and held a knife to his throat
before their elders intervened. The Brahmin scurried off
and never tried that again. Good thing he didn't stay
to watch what they did next. If he had, he might
have fainted. Majula herself couldn't
bare to watch as the wedding cook
separated out the intestines which would make
it salty sauteed. Other special parts
were carefully removed. The heart, the brain,
and the liver. A curry made out of these
is not meant for everyone. A portion of it is given to the
pastor who performs the wedding, and the rest goes to
the wedding families. For days the pig would
feed the whole colony. They'd make soup with
its bones and curries out of its hooves and testicles. People would swear
how diviine it is to eat pork fried
while drinking. "Chicken is nothing"
they would say. But the affair of the pig
is more than its taste. It's the circus of hunting
it, the feats of the men. The heroic -- it's heroic,
it's romantic, it's erotic. It's a metaphor, it's rhetoric,
it is deeply philosophical. But these are all
mere super structures, at the base it's economic. The cheapest meat for the
cheapest man on earth." That's it. [ Applause ] >> Rumaan Alam: I'm so
happy that read that section because I love that metaphor
about the pig finally looking up at the sky right
as its about to die. I think that we should start
at the beginning and talk -- just explain to an American
audience what caste means, what is caste? >> Sujatha Gidla: Okay. Caste is a social institution,
it's s social structure. I would say race in America is
also a social institution not you know, based on
biological differences between Blacks and Whites. I would say that in America
the race is a super -- a social structure,
because the fairest, the lightest skin Black man with the bluest eyes is also a
Black man if there is one drop of African blood in him. In that sense, caste is
a social institution. Unlike race, there is no
physical, visual differences to tell one caste
from the other. Because of that, the differences
are imposed from outside, these are external differences
imposed on these people. "You cannot wear
hair like we do. You cannot have the
same clothes as we do. You cannot go to the
same temples as we do. You cannot perform your weddings
in the same way that we do." These are the external
differences imposed on people to differentiate them that
these people are untouchable. So, caste in India,
the society is divided into different castes. The top is Brahmins, they
are the purest caste. So, caste is -- has both -- two
things, occupation associated with it, and purity, pollution,
scale associated with it. The Brahmins at the top,
they're a priestly caste. They perform the priestly
functions, they're the purest. And the second is
Vais -- Vais -- no, Kshatriyas, that
is the warrior caste. And the third is the Vaishyas,
the merchant, trader caste. And the fourth is a
conglomeration of subcastes, each defined by its occupation. Potters is one caste and
carpenters are one caste, diggers ar one cast, and
even prostitution is a caste. It's by birth that
you're a prostitute, not by your choosing,
not by your -- circumstance, but
because you're born in a prostitute family,
you are a prostitute. And underneath all
of these four castes, these are outcasts,
they're untouchables. And so, they have the filthiest
occupations given to them such as, removing dead animals,
and the carrying of human shit. And handling dead bodies are
these people's occupation. And there is nothing one can
do to choose their caste, and there's nothing one can
-- that can do to escape. You're born into your
caste and you die in it. >> Rumaan Alam: But when you -- >> Sujatha Gidla: And
that is the caste system and it still persists. >> Rumaan Alam: But when -- so,
you mentioned before that -- it's the sort of
irrevocable imposed structure. How can people define
one another? Like, how can you tell that
somebody is of a certain caste? >> Sujatha Gidla: Yeah. >> Rumaan Alam: Like, what are
the ways in which it's clear to one person exactly how to
categorize another person? If it's not about skin color,
like, what is it about? >> Sujatha Gidla: So,
Rumaan here is South Asian, I'm South Asian, do you see any
racial difference between us? Nothing. So, but you have to put
these people apart, you know, so that everyone can say,
these people are untouchables. So, the first thing they
do is, they're not allowed to live inside villages. They have to live on the
outskirts of a village, they come into the village
only to perform services. So, the fact that you're
living there is one thing. And the second thing is
that, no interaction -- I mean, like in -- only a few
decades ago, women in Kerala, the untouchable women were not
allowed to cover their breasts. They had to be -- they had
to stand naked breasted, naked chested -- chest in
front of the landlords. And if their -- if they want to
cover their breasts they have to pay tax, which is
very high and it's hard for untouchables to, you know,
to be able to cover themselves. So, it's the Indian missionaries
that came there that fought against that system, and
finally won the right of untouchable women
to cover their breasts. So, this is one example of
how you set apart these woman. These women are not
covering breasts means that these are untouchables. These women -- these
men are allowed only to wear only loin cloth which
means that he's an untouchable. And he's wearing this hair
cut in a very odd fashion that means he's an untouchable. He is not allowed to wear
footwear, that's an untouchable. And in one part of the country
you're supposed to hang a pot on your neck so that your --
you cannot spit on the ground, because other people
walk on the ground and your spit is
filthy, it's impure. So,if you want to spit, you
can only spit in this thing. And you have to tie a
broom around your waist so that wherever
you walk you wipe and clean your you
know, steps behind you. And even now it exists. Like, a boy wanted to ride a
horse and his father was able to buy a horse, but he was
killed because it is not done that an untouchable
could ride a horse. And you could get killed
for wearing a watch, you could get killed for
wear -- or riding a bicycle. And recently, a pregnant
woman was beaten to death because she dared to touch
the trashcan of a caste Hindu. And these are like,
all these differences, which are not biologically
visual are imposed from outside. Don't wear a watch,
don't have a haircut, don't ride a horse,
don't wear footwear. These are -- this is the way that people differentiate
untouchables from caste Hindus. >> Rumaan Alam: I think there's
an assumption, at least it was for me, that this way of organizing society
is very -- very ancient. But, in fact, in
your book you talk about your great grandfather? Your great grandfather who had
been a sort of tribal person in -- outside of an urban India. And this was -- this would have
been quite a while now, but now, you know, not centuries ago. And that in his clan there
was no concept of cast. >> Sujatha Gidla: Yeah. >> Rumaan Alam: And it was not
until the sort of urbanization of this rural Indian
population that caste as an idea even took hold. So, is it accurate to say
that it's not like, such a -- it's not an age old idea. >> Sujatha Gidla: Yeah. >> Rumaan Alam: It's not
old, it's a kind of -- it's weirdly a modern
way of organizing things. >> Sujatha Gidla: Yeah. Yeah. >> Rumaan Alam: And you talk
about this books, the subtitle of this book is The
Making of Modern India. And so, I think that works in
two ways where you're talking about caste as a sort of
structure that helped give rise to the India we know now. But you're also really
talking about-- in the section that Sujatha
read, Majula, the little girl -- the young woman who has gone out to watch this erotic
pig hunt is her mother, and the man who is getting
married is her uncle Sacham[Phonetic]
or Eske[Phonetic]? >> Esmay[Phonteci] es --
sorry Esmay[Phonetic], yeah. Okay. >> Rumaan Alam: And
he -- it seemed -- it felt to me like the making of modern India was
really something that he was a part of -- >> Sujatha Gidla: Yeah. >> Rumaan Alam: Because,
this was a man who was, as Sujatha has just said,
from a caste of people for whom there was no
expectation in life. That you -- that he
would like a pig, only see the sky upon
reaching his death. >> Sujatha Gidla: Yeah. >> Rumaan Alam: But he
wholly rejected that, and became a very significant,
political descenter. And sort of a gorilla
leader in a moment probably, that's probably most associated
with what we understand in this country as Communism, so this would have
been in the 50s -- >> Sujatha Gidla: Yeah. >> Rumaan Alam: Right? So, can you talk a little bit
about your uncle and what you -- when you were a child
did you understand that your uncle was this kind of freedom fighter,
that he was a hero? >> Sujatha Gidla: So, my
uncle was born, you know, an untouchable, and they --
his family was very poor. And they were living in you
know, squalid conditions. But, at that time, the
British were ruling India, and the whole nationalist
thing -- the struggle was, "Oh, you know, we're poor because
the British are ruling. We're poor because they're
exploiting our resources. And so, it got into his mind
that, "Okay, if you get rid of the British we will all
live, you know, like happily. Eat bread like the British
people, live in bungalows, and wipe your mouths
with napkins", and you know, that
kind of stuff. So, at 11 -- when
he was 11 years old, there was an independence
movement. It came in the context
of World War II. World War II gave
Gandhi leverage. "Look, the British, we'll
support you in the world if you give us independence." So, it was somewhat militant, more militant than
other struggles. And that struggle was what my 11
year old uncle was attracted to and he participated in it. And at 16 the independence came, and the very day the
independence came he saw. So, all these people
came together as one, as united front to
fight the British. But once the British
left, these class lines, caste lines started
showing up, you know? And the very night of
the independence he saw that things changed -- didn't change for him
or people like him. And the upper class, upper caste
people, the independence is for them, for the lower caste,
untouchables by in large, India remained the same. So, he was disillusioned with
the Independence Movement, and you know, independence. But, at that very time,
there was a struggle going on in the neighboring
state where the peasants, the poor peasants were
revolting against a form of slavery called
vehti[Phonetic], it's slavery, but it's caste based slavery. So, that inspired him and
so, he wanted to join it, but by the time he was up to
it, the struggle was crushed. And it's because the
leaders of the struggle, the Communists made a pact
with the rich peasants and liquidated the struggle. And the poor peasants
who struggled, fought for it, remained
the same. So, there was a dissident
group -- descent group who
broke off from it. And they were inspired
by the revolution in China 1949 under Mao. And it's the Maoist struggle
that he was attracted to, and he went on to found
the Maoist movement that now India calls the
most dangerous, you know, security threat in India. That -- he was one of the
founders of the thing, and -- >> Rumaan Alam: And that's
an ongoing political struggle in India. >> Sujatha Gidla:
On going, yeah. >> Rumaan Alam: The
Naxalites movement. >> Sujatha Gidla: Yeah. Like, in the tribal areas, the
big mining companies are trying to grab the land of tribals and
kick them out of the forests. So, he died, but his
legacy still lives on even though he was
even expelled from it. So, it -- in that sense, he
wanted to take his destination and his peoples' destination
in his own hands, and you know? >> Rumaan Alam: Was that
something that you knew about when you were a girl? Did you have -- did
you understand that your uncle was this man? Or was it -- was that kept from
you because you were a child? >> Sujatha Gidla: When I
was five years old he went underground, he disappeared
from public life, went to live in the forest. And we learned about him only through the stories
of my mother. She would say, "That
your uncle went off to fight for the poor people. He lives in the jungle, and
he has guns and all that stuff to fight the rich
people, take their money and distribute among
the poor people. That's the kind of story -- >> Rumaan Alam: He's
like Robinhood. >> Sujatha Gidla:
Robinson, right. . >> Rumaan Alam: Yeah. Yeah. >> Sujatha Gidla: Yeah. >> Rumaan Alam: And -- >> Sujatha Gidla: So, obviously,
I was very inspired by that. >> Rumaan Alam: Right. So, I was going to -- I -- one of the most chilling
components comes toward the end when you kind of
-- and I don't want to spoil exactly what happens,
but, you shed some context in the ways in which even this
Maoist struggle that seems to be so idealistic, was
actually still riven with these caste tensions. >> Sujatha Gidla: Yeah. Yeah. >> Rumaan Alma: And
that your uncle, who was an untouchable man and
has this, really utopian ideal that all men are created equal. >> Sujatha Gidla: Yeah. >> Rumaan Alma: Even
he was betrayed by the people that he led -- >> Sujatha Gidla: Yeah. >> Rumaan Alma: That the
movement didn't really live up to that particular standard. >> Sujatha Gidla: Yeah. >> Rumaan Alma: And
you close the book, you do this really charming
thing of introducing yourself as a baby at the end of
the book, and then you kind of close the book
talking a little bit about yourself as an adult. And I'm curious,
whether you see yourself as having inherited your uncle's
mantle of political activism? and thinking about poverty,
and difference, and class, and how we do that in this
country as opposed to India? >> Sujatha Gidla: Oh, yeah. Definitely. My uncle was the most
influential person in my life. And at 14, actually I wanted
to become a guerrilla like him. And it -- it was -- and I think
it was at 19 before I took up rifle and ran off to forest,
I was arrested and tortured. So, that never happened, but --
and also, as I came to America, and there's like, more
resources to read for yourself. And I read, you know, these
movements by myself instead of getting indoctrinated. And I disagreed with
his political program and tactics before he was
expelled from the party that he himself founded,
and even after. But the main aim that, you know,
there should be equality, like, equal access to everybody
to all resources that is still my ideal. And that problem is not
limited to untouchables in India, but here as well -- >> Rumaan Alam: Yeah. >> Sujatha Gidla: You
know, the race question. And so, I don't see myself as
like, oh, I have to be in India to fight against injustice, and
I can do this very well here. And I am very passionate about,
you know, social struggles, anti racist struggles,
and I parcpated -- I participate in them. And of course, I do... I still continue
his legacy of -- >> Rumaan Alam: Yeah. >> Sujatha Gidla: You know, the
passion for social struggle. >> Rumaan Alam: We're going
to open it up to questions, so if anyone has a question,
but I have another one, so while you guys are gathering
your thoughts or making your way to the microphone, I want to ask
you a little bit about the way in which you wrote this story. Because, you -- in the
section the Sujatha read, you could hear her reading
sort of close observations and some scene setting. And in the New York Times
review by Michiko Kakutani, she likened the work to Dickens. And I'm curious if
you can explain to us how you learned
these stories. And how you approached
writing them. You used dialogue and
all of these things that you couldn't had know,
because you weren't there. You weren't even
alive for so much of what you're writing about >> Sujatha Gidla: Yeah. >> Rumaan Alam: Tell
me a little bit about how you approached this
family's story, and how you, you know, the responsibility
of writing something that accurately -- accurately that you couldn't
know firsthand. >> Sujatha Gidla: I
was able to write. I was even able to think of
writing down something only because I left India
and I came to America. It's because, talking
about caste is taboo. The upper caste people
don't want to hear that there is still
caste system in India. And lower caste people
like myself, we are too ashamed
to talk about it. We are too ashamed to inquire into it why it happened
like that. And I came here, and I
came here during the Iraq war demonstrations. And I saw at least
some White people if not all White people
being anti racist, and not just being anti racist,
but passionately anti racist. That could never had
been imagined in India with untouchables
and caste Hindus. And so, if people are okay with
you know, people of other race and it's not shame to
be a different race, why can't I be like that? Why should I be ashamed of
being born an untouchable? So, that's when I
started inquiring, why did I become an untouchable? And so, I would talk
to different people, but I thought the best source
would be to call my mother and ask her, do you know
why we became untouchables? And so, she started telling
the story of my ancestors, that is her great grandfather. And it's only since then
that she knew the story of. And when she was
telling the story, I was able to realize how
they became untouchables. And so, while I started
this story to -- as an inquiring to
finding out caste, but their stories themselves
I found very interesting. And she asked me to
talk to my uncle, and my uncle led
a very colorful, adventurous charismatic life. And -- >> Rumaan Alam: That
is an understatement. >> Sujatha Gidla: Yeah. Yeah. >> Ranmaan Alam: That
is an un -- I mean -- >> Sujatha Gidla: Yeah. >> Ranmaan: Your uncle,
like, the things that he -- >> Sujatha Gidla: Yeah. >> Ranmaan Gidla: The stories
that are relayed in his book, and they have this quality
of -- it's almost like -- it's almost like the reader
gets to be on the telephone and your uncle, do
you know what I mean? It was like you're hearing -- >> Sujatha Gidla: Oh! Actually, a lot of this
interviewing is done through the phone. >> Rumaan Alam: And
you can feel that. >> Sujatha Gidla: Yeah. Yeah. >> Rumaan: Alam: I think
we have a question here. >> Sujatha Gidla: Yeah, sorry. >> I understand that
the constitution of India reserves some
degree of political strength to various castes by assured
proportions in the legislator. I -- it at least originally did. But, is there a campaign by
the government or otherwise to destroy the concept of caste? To say, there are no difference,
that people are not predestined? Essentially, is there any
acceptance of that as a concept that the caste serves
no real purpose? That it's a real --
it's a false concept? >> Sujatha Gidla: Actually,
I would disagree with you. Caste has a real purpose, it has
a real material basis for it. >> It -- >> Sujatha Gidla: Because there
are certain classes of people, a very tiny minority
of people benefit from perpetuating this system. >> It has no biologic basis. >> Sujatha Gidla: Yeah. Yeah. >> It serves economics. >> Sujatha Gidla: Yeah. And the second thing is, in 1915
they have made untouchability a ille -- a crime. But, India has literally,
thousands of rules against caste discrimination, but none of them
is ever respected. Just like here there is
no right or Black man that White man is -- what is is? Is obliged to respect, yeah. >> Is equal. It's, well -- >> Sujatha Gidla: Yeah. >> Our system would
say equal justice. Is there a notion civically
and endorsed publically that these considerations
just don't exist and ought to be ignored? Is there a popular
support for that? >> Sujatha Gidla: A
popular support -- ? >> In India for doing
away with the concept. >> Sujatha Gidla: Yeah. I mean -- >> Rumaan Alam: Like,
politically is there any kind of movement in the country to
move past the system to sort of legalize -- legally say this
should not be the way it is? Or you're saying -- or are you
saying that there are laws, but socially they're
not enforced? >> Sujatha Gidla: Yeah. So, there's no point in fighting
for more laws and more you know, these things, because the
laws are simply not followed. So, the only way
to fight for it is to destroy the economic
structures that necessitate the
perpetuation of caste. For example, in rural
India, landlords own castes and they need laborers
to work for it. And they need laborers copiously
and reliably all the time. So, they don't want these people
to go to city and get educated and become a doctor or a lawyer. They want to keep these people, a reserve of people
to work on the land. That is the material
basis of caste. Caste is not like some evil idea
or something, it has a root, economic root in it, you know? And so, unless those
structures are demolished, there's really no hope for you
know, abolishment of caste. >> Rumaan Alam: Right. >> Sujatha Gidla: Yeah. >> Rumaan Alam: We
have another questions. >> Hi. I have two questions. One is, where did
you learn to read? I didn't know that India
educates untouchables. And the second is, how did
you get to America, like, how did you get the money? >> Sujatha Gidla: Yes, okay. >> Thank you. >> Sujatha Gidla: But,
you know, I say this -- one time I said this to
the interviewer like, how did you become like one
of these two persons of -- untouchables that escaped it? I think that historically,
the green lights kept popping up just in time for
us, you know? Like, my great grandmother
was there in the -- Canadian White missionaries
came to India, and they wanted to convert people
to Christianity. But, castes Hindus didn't want
to convert because they thought that they would lose
their caste status. The only people left to
convert were untouchables. And untouchables in droves
took Christianity in India. And because they took
Christianity, I mean, even otherwise they would
have been, they were allowed into Christian schools, missionary schools
to get education. They were allowed into
missionary hospitals to get treatment for their
children and their ailing. And that's a historical
opportunity that happened just in time for my great
grandparents. And the second generation
was independence. Immediately after independence,
there's this hunky dory feeling of "Oh, we defeated the
foreigner and we're all one." And so, people, some people
like, you know, believe it. And so, were treating
other people like, equally. And it is during that time that
my mother and father were able to go to school and
get education. And those institution's
garment schools persisted until my generation. And they're destroyed
after that, now untouchables have very
little chance of advancement. And -- ? >> Rumaan Alam: And
so, how did you come to live in the United States? >> Sujatha Gidla: I -- so,
as I said, my grandparents, missionary educated, and after that my parents in
garment colleges. And I also was able
to go to school. And I went to this institution
called IIT, the Institute of Technology, it's
sort of like MIT. There, the trajectory of
students over there is in final year take GREs
and [inaudible] to get out of this country, and go
to the first world country. So, I happened to be
in that environment and I just followed what
other people were doing, and that's how I came here. >> Rumaan Alam: I think we
had another question here. >> You talked about the economic
supports of the caste system. Is there a religious
support to it? And I don't know if these
thoughts are at all correct, but I'm thinking, karma
and reincarnation. Are there religious
ties to the system? And are there difference among
the different religious peoples in India in their approach
to the caste system? >> Sujatha Gidla: Oh,
you know, people think that caste is associated
with Hinduism. The basis for it is, Hindu is -- has a creator Lord Brahma
is -- was the creator. He created humans
to fall into one of the four casts
or as an outcast. So, it says in Hindu text
that the Brahmin comes from the forehead of the
ceater, the -- Lord Brahma. And the Kshatriyas , the warrior
caste comes from the shoulders, the arms of the creator. And the Vaishyas, the merchant
caste comes from you know. And the service caste, potters. prostitutes, diggers,
carpenters, they come from the
legs of the Brahma. So, it's also is -- the
occupation is assoc -- [inaudible] with the
religious purity. And so, Brahmins are
the purest people. And the untouchables
come un-sanctioned by Lord Brahma beneath his feet, and that's why they're
the most impure. So, Hinduism is basically a
religious prop for caste system. It justifies caste system, it gives religious
sanction for caste system. I think if I'm not
incorrect, Confucian -- Confucianism is also a
philosophy that's, you know, invented for social
structuring of people. So, it has religious purpose, but Indian society is
what necessitates caste. So, even other religious people
coming to India they fall into one caste or the other. So, Islam, they're
Indian Muslims have caste. Muslims outside don't
have caste, but Indian Muslims have caste. Christians don't have
caste, they don't even know about caste, but in India,
Christians have caste. >> Rumaan Alam: You
had a question. >> Yeah. So, you said that to
dismantle the caste system you have to attack the
economic structure that is propping it up? >> Sujatha Gidla: Yeah. >> So -- but, that's an idea,
but to actually implement it, will you say that it's -- it should be through the
political system like, affirmative action, or if it
has been there for some time? Or through people's movement
that are slowly coming up and gaining steam in India? >> Sujatha Gidla: [inaudible] >> Rumaan Alam: So, I -- the -- >> Sujatha Gidla: I'm
sorry, this light is -- >> Rumaan Alam: I know,
it is very bright. >> Sorry. >> Sujatha Gidla: Yeah. >> Rumaan Alam: The question is, whether there is a
political solution, we only have two minutes, so -- >> Sujatha Gidla: Yeah. >> Rumaan Alam: This is a big
-- this is a tall order for you. >> Sujatha Gidla: Yeah. >> Rumaan Alam: To answer
whether there is a political solution to this problem
via affirmative action, is that -- that's accurate. Via affirmative action or some
other program, or whether -- ? I mean, what I hear you
saying and I think what I hear in the book is that you are -- you're thinking is a
little more radical even than addressing this
through affirmative action. >> Sujatha Gidla: Right. >> Rumaan Alam: That
it's really -- and what you're talking about is
not just the breaking of castes, but the breaking of a
larger capitalist -- >> Sujatha Gidla: Yeah. >> Rumaan Alma: System. But, do you have any --
do you have any optimism or do you have any sense that India is prepared
to deal with this? >> Sujatha Gidla: Yeah. I think India is
roiling, more roiling than outsiders will realize. There is ferment of the workers,
they're ferment of peasants, and the students are
really struggling under the current Modi regime. And India is producing
18 year olds, like 1 million every
month or year? One of those books
mentions that. So, there's going to be an
army of unemployed in India, and that makes it a, you know,
fertile ground for castes -- caste based, you know, wars and
discrimination, and violence. And so, I don't think any
political party that wants to work within this structure, parliamentary structure
can bring down castes. And I think that the only way
is to bring down the structures. And it may seem impossible,
but you know, things happen like that. In the world it happened
like that, in America Civil War happened
and destroyed slavery. >> Rumaan Alma: Yeah. >> Sujatha Gidla: And in French
Revolution the feudalism was destroyed and established
the rule of the Bourgeoisie, and it can happen very much. >> Rumaan Alma: I mean, they
say that kings were divine -- >> Sujatha Gidla: Yeah. >> Rumaan Alam: Until
they no longer are. >> Sujatha Gidla:
Oh, yes, exactly. >> Rumaan Alma: This was
such a great conversation. I highly recommend Sujatha's
book, it's a beautiful -- beautiful family story. And thank you everybody
for attending. Have an amazing time today. [ Applause ]
