Tina Srebotnjak: I'm going to introduce our
host and interviewer for this evening who is Sarah Weinman. Sarah is the News Editor for Publishers Marketplace
and writes the monthly Crimewave mystery and suspense column for the National Post. Her work has also appeared in The Wall Street
Journal, The Los Angeles Times, and The Washington Post. She is also a crime novelist herself, it never
ends. And she has a new book called Troubled Daughters,
Twisted Wives: Stories from the Trailblazers of Domestic Suspense. And her book will also be for sale tonight,
along Sue's. And both authors will be signing, of course,
at the end of the event. So let's get to it, you're not here to see
me. Let's welcome Sarah Weinman. [applause] Sarah Weinman: Thank you all for coming, this
is an amazing capacity crowd tonight. And while I hope some of you might be here
to see me, the reality is you're all here to see Sue Grafton. [laughter] And the cliché is that she needs
no introduction, but I think for our purposes, she is the author of the Kinsey Millhone series. They've been bestselling and pioneering and
influential books since '"A" is for Alibi' was published in 1982. The newest one is '"W" is for Wasted." Please welcome, Sue Grafton. [applause] SW: So Sue, I wanted to start with a quote
that comes near the beginning of "W" is for Wasted. And I think that this quote is instructive
on multiple levels. "This was October 7th, 1988 and it looked
like things were as bad as they were going to get. On the national front, congressional spending
was a whopping 1.06414 billion," I think I got that right, [chuckle] and the federal
debt was topping at a 2.6013 billion. Unemployment hovered at 5.5%. And the price of a first class postage stamp
had jumped from 22 cents to 25. I tend to disregard issues over which I had
no control, like it or not. The politicians don't consult me about economic
policies, budget cuts, or the gross national product, whatever that is. I might voice an opinion, if I had one, but
as nearly as I can tell, nobody pays the slightest attention, so what's the point? My only hope is to be the master of my own
small universe, which is centred in the Southern California town, 96 miles north of Los Angeles." So in that paragraph which comes about two
pages in, we learn a lot about how Kinsey Millhone thinks, both through those who have
never met her before and for those who have been following along since "A". So lets unpack that a little bit. One is, things are a little bit worse now. [chuckle] Sue Grafton: I know, I know. Can you all hear? If you can't hear, raise your hand. There's nothing worse than people going blah-blah-blah
and you're going... If you can't hear, raise your hand. Thank you. SW: There's one person in the back who can't
hear, so I think you may have to project a little bit. SG: Okay, okay. Bring her forward. [laughter] I mean I've got all that information
on the Internet, which is where you get everything these days. You know, you can look on the Internet and
you can get the phases of the moon for any given day, going back about a decade or two
or four. So that's great information. SW: It is. But of course, I talk to you as we're in day
two of government shutdown across the border, which is why, when I... 0:03:26 SG: I think it's a great idea. [laughter] Shut it down, save all that taxpayers'
money. I bet we'd do really well without them. [laughter] SW: What's funny is that here in Canada, if
you shut down the government, it dissolves, there's a new election. Whereas in the States, it just keeps going
on and on and on. SG: Exactly. SW: But the point being is that, it's a good
way to kind of introduce that things were a lot different 25 years ago. And as I think is well known for people familiar
with your work, is that time moves a lot slower in the Kinsey Millhone universe. So when did you first realize you had to do
that? SG: Well, when I came up with the idea of
doing the alphabet, it was a really brilliant moment in my life, I gotta tell you that. [laughter] I understood that if I aged her
one year for every book, it would get kind of ridiculous, you know. Right now, she'd be 63, which I was myself
once. And I can assure you, it's a great age, but
not for knocking guys down and punching them in the face. I don't do that much of it at my age. So, [laughter] I decided she needed to age
more slowly. So, technically speaking, she ages one year
for every two and a half books. So she's now 38 and I've got three books. I'm thinking to take it up to maybe New Year's
Eve 1989. SW: Really? SG: Yes. SW: Because I know that you've said in the
past that it was going to end in 1990. So has time slowed down a little bit even
further? SG: Well, I don't know. You know, it's like when these stories come
to me, I do sit there and think, "Now wait, what season should it be?" You know, seasons are interesting. So, we'll just see. I don't calculate these things in advance. I fly by the seat of my pants. And I don't tell Kinsey Millhone, she tells
me. [laughter] So I'm just happy she shares part
of her life with me. There are many things about her that she assures
me are none of my damn business. [laughter] Okay, okay. SW: What things, even after so many books,
have you been trying to get her to tell you that she still won't? SG: Well, you know, it's on a need to know
basis. For instance, when I got to the end of "F"
is for Fugitive, I realized that was a book about fathers. If you look at it, it's all about father. I noticed when I turn my head that way, the
sounds... Okay. I'm never gonna look at you [laughter] because
you'll never hear what I'm saying. And I needed an image to end that book with,
and all of the sudden I understood those last moments in that car when her parents were
killed. And it just came to me in a kind of reverie,
and it was just the perfect thing I needed for that book. But backing up to your original question,
it's been a blessing to be stranded in the '80s because life was so simple then. You could have a meal with someone and they
wouldn't be texting. [laughter] SW: You don't have phones like this. [chuckle] SG: Yeah. No cellphone, no Internet. Life was just easier, and the beauty of it
is that Kinsey Millhone does her sleuthing the old fashioned way. SW: Yes. SG: You know, she goes to the public library... I'm going to just hold this like this. She goes to the public library where every
good detective does quite a bit of work. She goes to the Hall of Records. She goes to the courthouse. She does surveillance sitting in her car. And it makes a much more dramatic and interesting
job, in my opinion. SW: But do you find... Like especially as you're working on the books,
do you feel some weird time differential? Like you're stuck in 1988 and you have to
be brought back into 2013? SG: It isn't 1988? [laughter] No, I like that. SW: Remember this thing, Sue? SG: Yeah, no. I do have to do research. It's hard... To me, 1988 seems like day before yesterday
and yet life has changed very, very rapidly. So I sometimes have to do research just remembering
what was going on. It's amazing. SW: I wanna talk about the book itself a little
bit but first we obviously have to talk about the titles because they themselves have become
the show. [chuckle] And this year you did something
different where you actually invited your readers to guess which one it would be. And I wondered why do that now as opposed
to books past? SG: We did it with "J" Is For Judgement at
what was ABA in those years. Somebody misunderstood and thought I was asking
them to name the book, no, no, no, no. SW: That's Janet Evanovich. [laughter] SG: Mommy does that. I name the books. But it was fun to see what people guessed. And about 25 people got it right and they
got a free advanced reader's copy of it. SW: But 25 out of however many thousands submitted,
it is not a lot. SG: Well, "W" was interesting. It could have been witness, warrant, wanted,
weapon, wicked. I had a lot of options, but when I saw the
direction this book was taking, it seemed like wasted was a nice... SW: What's funny is that when I was doing
research for tonight's interview and I was Googling around, "W" Is For Witness is still
a top search term. SG: I know. But see look at it, witness, I'm already committed
to a storyline, either it's got to be a jury or witness to a crime. It just didn't generate any internal excitement. SW: And the thing with wasted is it means
so many different things, and one of the things that I wanted to talk to you about without
getting too heavy into spoiler doom, because we know that's bad, but I know that you did
a lot of research into medical fraud and experiments and things like that. I wondered what prompted you to do that sort
of research. Did you know going in that this was a line
of enquiry that you wanted to do? SG: I did know that and I have the kind of
mind... I learn everything for one book and then I
cancel, delete. It's just gone. [laughter] And so to me California criminal
law is just always a surprise. It's like, "Really? Homicide?" So whatever research I have done for past
books is, look, I just don't have room for it in my head and so I knew I needed to do
a lot of research. I love the medical field. Before I wrote books, I worked as a medical
secretary in medical front office. Little white uniform, little white shoes,
it was so much fun. When I... I'll just digress. SW: Yeah, of course. No, that's fine. SG: When I graduated from the University of
Louisville, Louisville is the way we say it, I had a degree in English Literature with
minors in Humanities and Fine Arts, which is to say I was unemployable. [laughter] So I taught myself to type and
in those days in the State, it was Ben Casey and Dr. Kildare. I thought I'd like it. I could do this. So I pretended I knew medical terminology
and got hired by doctors who can't write anything anyway, what did they know? [laughter] So for years, I worked. I did Cottage Hospital, working down in the
financial clinic or medical clinic. I'm very attracted to medical issues to begin
with and so that was one appeal. SW: But by the flipside, do you find yourself
going online to research horrible diseases and then spooking yourself? Or do you manage to avoid that? SG: Online, you just gather a lot of information
and sort it out as you need to. SW: The other thing too, to go back to this
whole wasted theme, is that the book opens where Kinsey is being asked to investigate
and there's what seems to be a John Doe. And there was an earlier book of yours, "Q"
Is for Quarry, that deals with a Jane Doe that I believe is still unidentified, unless
I'm wrong. SG: Yeah. I went to a dinner party one night and I was
sitting next to a retired forensic pathologist. And I had just come up with the word "quarry",
which I loved because it means the hunted and it means... And the murder in fact took place in a quarry. And he said to me, he said, "You know, in
1969, we found a young woman, a homicide victim." And he said he did the post-mortem exam and
he said, "We have never figured out who she is." He said we still have all... Everything. He said he thought she would be quickly identified
because she had very odd dental... Her teeth were odd. She had a lot of dental work done and she
had malocclusion of teeth. And so he said to me in the most casual manner
imaginable, "Would you like to see the jaw?" I'm like, "Yes, I would." [laughter] So I went down to... The Sheriff's department were so amazing to
me. They opened all their files. It was a cold case. There was no danger of my blowing anything. So I got to see the pants she was wearing
that were hand-sewn. I got to see her sandals, her earrings, her
fingerprints. SG: And I got interested in the notion of
who she might be so I invented an ending to her story. But much of the material I pulled straight
out of those files. Now, here's the good part. I'm on tour this year. I was in... See, I always forget where I was. I was in Denver, Colorado at the Tattered
Cover. And a woman named, Leora, who is probably
in her 70s came up with this incredible theory about who this woman was. Because ever since the book has come out,
there have been people calling in saying maybe it's my aunt Molly. And I've now lost her last name and the contact
numbers. So I put the word out on Facebook, it's like,
"I am looking for Leora in Denver, Colorado." I hope she'll connect up. But when I get back to Santa Barbara, I'm
gonna talk to the Sheriff's Department about this idea she had. SW: Yeah, absolutely. SG: It was a big break. SW: I did wonder if you had been able to find
out who she really was. I had seen your Facebook message. SG: Well, I'm not sure we will ever know. We'll never know who killed her. But some theorized that this was right around
the Sharon Tate murders and there were some sense that maybe Charlie Manson's boys came
up to Santa Barbara and did her in. I don't know. But it would be the crowning achievement of
my career if she could be identified and returned to her people. SW: Yeah. I mean one of the big themes in your work
in general, but it really comes through in "W", is this sense of making up different
families. And I feel like with Kinsey, who has such
a complicated relationship with her own family, and I really love how you've been able to
explore that through the whole series, but it really feels like, as you will all find
out, that this really deepens in new ways. So I wonder just like when you're working
on this and trying to figure out what new familial relationships will pop up for poor
Kinsey, how that goes about? SG: Well in "J" is for Judgement, I have these
ideas. Like, "Oh, here's a good idea." Sometimes I regret those good ideas. But in "J" is for Judgement, I thought wouldn't
it be keen if Kinsey ended up investigating her own life? So she's looking for Wendell Jaffe, this takes
place down in Perdido, which is actually Ventura, California. And she knocks on a door and somebody said,
"Are you Kin? Are you related to the Kinsey family up in
Long Poke?" 'Cause her first name was so unusual. And she's like, "I'm absolutely not." But something about it bothers her so she
goes back, and she has a copy of her parent's marriage certificate. Sure enough, up comes this whole piece of
family. Well, Kinsey has always prided herself on
being a loner. She takes this perverse pride in being without
family. And she's totally nonplussed by the idea of
these relatives, so they just become such a burden to her. SG: She's cranky. She doesn't wanna do family stuff. She doesn't wanna sing around the piano. She doesn't want to do any of that. So from "J" until "U" is for Undertow, she's
working on that partly 'cause I couldn't figure it out. So I thought I'd better not keep writing this
until I know what we're doing here. So some of that appears, I think, in "M" is
for Malice where cousin Tasha hires her to do a piece of work. And I thought, "Family feuds take forever. Some people never sort those out." So I thought I might as well just do it in
my own good time. But there was a reader who wrote me a little
note and said, "Well, now we've heard about Kinsey's mother's family, what about her father's?" I'm like, "Good question." So this is the book where I thought to tackle
that, and the trick was, I couldn't do it if I was going to repeat the whole emotional
cycle that I went through with "J" is for Judgement. So I had to figure out a way for her to get
information and a way to react to it that wasn't just repetitious. So fortunately, I did it very well. [laughter] SW: Well, I think that's one thing that you're
very clear, is that you don't want to repeat yourself. SG: I don't. SW: Especially when clearly you have this
constraint of the alphabet that the last thing you wanna do is write the same book over and
over again. And I know several books ago, you started
introducing additional points of view. And you do the same thing in "W" and it's
a very pungent and... He's a sleazy guy. [chuckle] SG: These books, I think of them... For instance, I think of "M" is for Malice
as my ghost story 'cause there's this ghost that appears, apropos of nothing, but ghosts
sometimes do that. And I think of "N" is for Noose as my Western
'cause it's sort of set in the boonies and she's escorted out of town by the sheriff
at one point. So I was thinking to myself, "Wouldn't it
be keen to do time travel?" And then I thought, "But I can't do time travel
because I don't write science fiction." And Shadow, my dark side, piped up and said,
"I will tell you how to do time travel. Type July 5, 1955 and just be there." So that's how I figured out that I could go
back in time. I mean, it's obvious now, isn't it? [laughter]
I grant you, I am slow, but what I understood, that was "S" is for Silence, is that that
story is about a gal named Violet Sullivan who's been missing for 34 years. And I understood that all it would be was
a series of interviews. Kinsey would be interviewing everybody left
alive, and how would she know if anybody was telling her the truth? So I thought, "Let's just let the readers
see what really happened and then the reader will understand the story as it takes place." And the fun of that was, really, the reader
knows things that Kinsey never understands. SW: So I take it now that you're doing multiple
points of view, that your gonna stick with that? [chuckle] SG: No no no, because heres the rule... I make all these rules for myself. The rule is, just because I did it once, doesn't
mean every book has to be that way. What I do when I look for a story and start
putting it together, I have to decide who will carry the story. Obviously, most of it is carried by Kinsey
Millhone, but if I'm doing other points of view, if there are portions of the story she
could not possibly know, I will sometimes let another character carry that. And I think that gives a complexity and a
richness to the reading from the readers' point of view. Now I just had someone on Facebook who said,
"I just hate that multiple point of view and every time that I read that I feel gypped." And I thought to myself, "That's making a
bad remark about gypsies, right?" SW: Yes. [laughter] SG: But I didn't accuse her of that. And I said, "Why don't you read somebody else?" [laughter] There are so many other people
to read! There are lots of other writers. I said, "That is the power of a reader. You get to vote with your wallet." If you think my language is too salty, read
Mary Higgins Clark, she doesn't even say damn!" [laughter] I'm at a point... Its like, you're not gonna blackmail me with
your disapproval and I'm not gonna do that to you either, so. SW: That happened to you while you were writing
one of your books where you had been... You had received an email accusing you of
bad language and all of a sudden you got blocked. SG: I know, right, that was "J is for Judge... SW: It was "J", yeah. SG: Because I'm a good southern girl, I'm
not here to offend anybody, I'm really not. I was getting all these letters from people
who complain. And I keep saying, "I don't actually cuss. Kinsey sometimes does." [laughter] And the bad guys do, but I usually
say, "I clean it up for you. You should hear the way criminals talk, it's
just disgusting." [laughter] So I damp it down for you just
as a courtesy. So I had begun to self censor. I'd get to one of those good ones, I'd be
going, "Now, you don't have to say that. You could say shoot or poo-poo or something,
you know." SW: Or gosh, darn. [laughter] SG: I got eight chapters into that book and
the prose was dead and flat, and I knew I was in trouble. This is a long story, is that okay? SW: That's fine. SG: Okay. [chuckle] I got a phone call from
a woman I had worked with in Hollywood, one of the three people in Hollywood I'd ever
agree to work with again. And she said... SW: That's saying something. SG: One of them is dead now and I didn't do
it. [laughter] She said to me, "Do you remember
when you told me that if I ever found a therapist good with creative people I should tell you?" I'm like, "Sure." I swear I never said that to her, but okay,
I was going along with the gag. So she said,"I have a guy and right now he
is magical. And I don't know how long the magic is gonna
last." And so she gave me his phone number. I called him 20 minutes later, that was on
a Wednesday. I met him on a Saturday. I was living in Santa Barbara, drove down
to LA with my husband. We met him and for three months we did phone
therapy and I never saw him again. It was Jungian, which I had never been exposed
to. Jungian therapy is very abstract and very
intellectual, and I'm thinking this can't help. I was used to boo-hoo therapy. [laughter] You know, where you get mad and
you blame everybody. And it's so much fun and does so little good. [laughter] So here's something where I'm not
doing any boo-hoo, I'm not mad and I'm thinking it's not gonna work. SG: Well, within three months, he totally
turned my head around because he taught me the difference between ego and shadow, and
I've gotten into ego. I was busy being a good Girl Scout trying
not to offend you, trying to be your best friend. And I had gotten so good, that all my dark
stuff, I just sealed it off. Now your dark side is where all the creative
juice comes from. So you can be a perfect human being and have
no creative access, no access to the good stuff. So for about three days, I walked around my
house cussing a blue sheet. [chuckle] And I realized Kinsey had been mad
at me, she had gone on strike. So here's what this therapist said to me one
day on the phone, he said, "What if you turn this book in late?" I mean, I was coughing up a hairball. [laughter] I'm a good girl. I don't turn books in late. But it's like, okay, I'm trying to cope with
that. And he says, "Furthermore, what if you turned
it in late and it wasn't very good?" I thought I was gonna black out. [laughter] And then he said to me, "Do you
know what? God will still let you breathe." And it was like it took the curse away. SG: I thought, "Well, shoot, if God will still
let me breathe, what I'm worried about?" So I gave up any hope of doing it right. I just surrendered to the universe. It's like, "So be it." So be it if I turned it in late. So be it if it's lousy. So be it if everybody criticized me for cussing. I don't care. And so "J" is for Judgement is a shadow-written
book. I just let go of any control. And that's really the way I need to work,
and I have to learn that lesson over and over and over because every time I sit down to
write I get into ego. I get worried you won't like it. You know, it's like... It's just... So that's something I'm just gonna work on. SW: It feels like "J" was something of a turning
point in that you allowed yourself to... You allowed your darker impulses to be on
the page more. SG: Yeah. Right. Well, I quit worrying about doing it right. You know, I have to remind myself over and
over, writing is about play. Painting is about play. Dancing is about play. We turn it into torture, and we turn it into
work, and then we don't do it well. And it's no fun. So every time I sit down to work, I struggle
with the issue of wanting to be in charge. And that once I give that up and get out of
my own way, I do much better. SW: But I think in one instance, you're lucky
in this point, which is that, as far as I know, you have had the same editor and the
same agent for all of your books. SG: I know. I have had the same editor since "A" Is for
Alibi, the same agent since "B" is for Burglar. SW: Yeah. So to have that incredible continuity in your
publishing career, I mean, now, it's... Not unheard of, but it's pretty close to be
of being unheard of. SG: Exactly. SW: And so I also wondered how that factors
in, like if you can... Sue's editor is Marian Wood who is an amazing
editor. So, when you know that you have Marian having
your back, editorially, that also gives you some, I suppose... SG: They protect me. They protect me. For a while, I was writing a book a year and
I got to a point where you can either promote a book or you can write a book. I can't do both at once. You know, when I'm promoting a book, I'm in
ego. When I'm writing, I'm in shadow. You don't want my shadow out here talking
to you. [laughter] She really cusses, you know. So I had to go to Henry Holt, which was the
publisher I had at the time. There was this big meeting and I had to sit
there and explain to them that I couldn't do a book a year. And the president would go... Or CEO would go, "Well, okay, yeah, absolutely. But you'll turn this book in." I was like, "No, not really. You know, you can't do that anymore." So by the end of that meeting, he got that
I wasn't gonna do it because, oh, this is something else this therapist taught me. SG: First thing he taught was about eating
a death cookie. "Here's a death... " And he drew this little picture of a cookie. A death cookie is when your inner self is
telling you something isn't right. Your ego's job is to be your emissary. Shadow tells you... If shadow is intuition, impulse... You know, shadow is your unconscious, your
first hit on the world. Shadow will tell you if you're not in a good
place. For instance, I always say, if you meet somebody,
shadow will tell you if they're a bad person. So you meet somebody, shadow goes, "Eek Eek
Eek," and ego says, "Now, that is not nice. [laughter] I'm sure she is a perfect person,
and that's the woman who will run off with your husband." [laughter] SG: You could have stopped it right there
in that first moment, but you're so busy trying to be nice that you blown it. So, eating a death cookie is when shadow tells
you something is not right and your job is to take care of it. Ego's job is to take care of it. So, you have to eat a death cookie. Shadow has to know that ego will die for her. And that means, you have to do really hard
conversations with people, trying to protect yourself and keep yourself in a good place
in the world. So going to this publisher, in this big meeting,
explaining that I wasn't gonna do a book a year, I had to eat a death cookie. And the trick is not be getting into drama. You know, getting into drama is just a waste
of time. You know, everybody gets mad. You get indignant. Then everybody cries and stomps out of the
room. That's stupid. That's just a waste of time. So, you have to do it diplomatically and graciously. And it's really easy to do once you listen
to the dark side. But that was what that whole process was about. SW: So you're speaking a little bit of the
dark side because "W" is not the only book that you published this year. You also republished "Kinsey and Me." SG: Yes. SW: And that was an interesting publishing
experience because some of the stories had been published in the early 1990s. And I kind of wanted to hear more about why
you decided to make them available to the wider public and also why you decided to include
additional stories of a much more personal nature. SG: Steve Humphrey had published this collection
of short stories in a slightly different form. I dropped one or two, I added some. The personal stories were written in the 10
years after my mother's death. And they are very painful, bitter accounts
of what my life was like until she died. And my parents were alcoholics. And, you know, my hesitation, "Who cares?" [chuckle] Everybody these days is into confessional
mode. And I didn't want... SW: A memoir for you then. SG: Yeah. But... But I thought... I felt it would be interesting for the reader
to see the relationship between my childhood and my life, and my dark side, and the nature
of Kinsey Millhone 'cause there are subterranean connections and I felt it was time to be more
transparent, to use that popular phase. It felt risky, but at the same time I thought,
I think people look at me and think, "Well, isn't she lucky? Isn't she lucky? She has all the success and everything is
going right." And I thought, "Well, lucky, okay, let's talk
about luck. Let's talk about being a kid born into circumstances
that are not so nice." And so the curious thing, my parents were
educated, articulate, passionate about books. My father was an attorney. My mother had a degree in Chemistry, taught
high school Chemistry for a while. They were lovely people, they just didn't
parent very well. Well, I'm not sure I was perfect at it either
and I'm hoping my kids won't publish stories later. [laughter] I told them I'd pay 'em a lot of
money if they just kept their mouths shut. [laughter] SW: Are you gonna haunt them afterwards? SG: Yeah. SW: 'Cause you talked about this in another
circumstance too, but anyway... SG: And so I thought, "Let's do this." So there are nine Kinsey Millhone short stories
that I've written over the past ump years. And then there are maybe 12 or 15 stories
from my life. And then there is an introduction to each
section, and there's an essay about detective fiction. I thought I have opinions about these things,
and it just seemed like a nice little collection. SW: Yeah. I know that when I was reading the Kit Blue
stories, they really resonated with me and even just preparing... It suddenly struck me, you had done an interview
where you mentioned that your childhood... You felt your childhood ended at five. And, of course, Kinsey's parents died when
she was five. SG: Exactly. SW: So was it strange to kind of acknowledge
that direct connection, finally? SG: Yeah, but I thought it was important. I think it's important to claim our lives,
whether we were in charge of them as kids or not. Kids have no power. But I'm an adult. I have power. I can do with my childhood or any other circumstance
in my life as I see fit. So, many people found those stories too painful. It triggers a lot of old sorrow. And some people have pasted over that and
they don't wanna look at that. But I've gotten notes from people who said,
"I had your childhood, and I didn't wanna look at that, and I had to cry a few tears
when we went through that." So I think we connect at that level. SW: Yeah. So just to kind of change text since you did
bring it up that you have opinions about detective fiction. SG: Yes. SW: And I know that you took the Santa Teresa
name from Ross Macdonald. And I wondered what was it about his work
that really spoke to you, especially when there was so many other detective writers? Even your own father wrote crime fiction. SG: Well, because Ross Macdonald was writing
about Santa Barbara and I liked the tone. Now, if you've analyzed his books at this
late date, they're really quite similar. And if he did it, they can call it a light
motif. If I did it, they'd say I was repeating myself. [laughter] So, I know how the game is played. That's one reason I don't wanna do the same
book twice. But still, he and Raymond Chandler, James
M. Cain, those writers just had this wonderful control of what they were doing. And the tone of the fiction was very attractive
to me. And so when I thought about writing a detective
novel, that's what I had been attracted to in my early reading. And I didn't wanna do the amateur sleuth,
and I wasn't well enough informed to do police procedure. So it just seemed to me the interesting issue
was that lone individual looking at society, trying to put pieces together and solve a
crime and see that justice is done. SW: Yeah. And of course at the time that you were conceiving
of Kinsey, it took several years from when you started "A" is for Alibi to when it was
published. You were working at the same time that Sara
Paretsky was up in Chicago and Marcia Muller was also in California. SG: Marcia Muller was the first. She published "Edwin of the Iron Shoes" in
1977. Paretsky and I published the same year and
that sort of blew the doors open. A lot of women started writing detective fiction
then. SW: But were you... I mean, granted this is a bit of a thing with
me, because the book that I have available is an anthology of women suspense writers
and one of the authors included is Margaret Millar. SG: Right. SW: So were you reading her work at the same
time or... SG: Some. It's hard to remember now 'cause I read so
much. But certainly Patricia Highsmith, oh, man,
those were grand, grand... And really, they're women who had quite a
presence. SW: Yes, they did. SG: You don't see so much of that of anymore. I mean, you see women having a presence, but
you don't hear so much about Dorothy Sayers and some of those early women who laid groundwork. SW: Yeah. You hear about Agatha Christie, and Sayers
is being reissued at the moment. But I do feel like a lot of the earlier writers
need to have their greater due. SG: I do too. SW: Which as a result is sort of why I've
been clanging the bell for some of these amazing writers, like Shirley Jackson and Margaret
Millar and Dorothy... I could go on. [chuckle] But in any case, I guess I wanna
hear some more about your thoughts of detective fiction not just when you were starting out. But just do you feel that it's... It's a device that serves you well. You, of course, stay in the '80s. But do you feel like it's relevant for today? Do you care? I just wonder. SG: Sure, I care. Alright, I'll go at it from this direction. Mystery... The detective novel is the only form in which
the reader and the writer are pivoted against each other. It is a game we're playing. Mystery writers are the magicians of literature. My job is to tell you a story. Nothing up this sleeve, nothing up that... And I'm honour-bound to give you every piece
of information that Kinsey Millhone has. Your job is to see if you can figure out what's
going on. My job is to do sleight of hand, deflect you
as gently and non-manipulatively as possible. You know I'm fooling you. You know I am. [laughter] And the trick here is that if you
figure it out or if you get annoyed with me on page 25, I'm in trouble. If you get to the end of the book like people
did with "P" is for Peril, I'm getting letters, "I don't get it." Then you're mad at me. So I've got once chance in three of doing
it right. Otherwise, you're gonna be mad at me. SG: But to me, the joy of that contest, telling
you the truth and letting you see if you can figure out where I'm going with that, that
is just too much fun. It's too much fun. So, yes, that's relevant. I'm not into serial killer books. Those bore me to tears. SW: I was just saying that the other day. [chuckle] SG: Yeah, if you're writing those, come have
a chat with me. I'll talk you out of it. [laughter] SW: Well, you've also said that graphic violence
is just something that you don't want to do and never really do. SG: Well, it isn't interesting. We all know what... Especially with movies and television, we
know what all that stuff looks at. I'm more interested in the why of things,
not the specifics of blood, gore, snot and hair. Who cares? Why do we kill each other? I kept saying, "Go back into therapy, get
your meds adjusted. [laughter] Quit killing each other." That's my sole mission in life. And yet every day you pick up the paper and
somebody's embezzling money, somebody's robbing banks, somebody's killing their spouse. Apparently, it is built into our nature and
that interests me. SW: The fact that seemingly good people, all
it takes is one thing on top of another thing, on top of another thing and then suddenly
they've completely gone over to the other side. SG: What interests me, what makes people cross
the line? I know, I have that kind of rage and I have
that kind of deviousness, trust me, but I'm also rule-governed and so I lead a very orderly,
lawful life, but I spend my days thinking of ways to kill people. [laughter] SW: Not a bad investment. SG: A little dichotomy in my nature. SW: How much time, if at all, do you have
to do writing that doesn't relate to Kinsey Millhone. And I bring this up because I understand that
you have a story or an essay in the knitting anthology. SG: Oh, I do. Yes, thank you. Alright, see, this is all shadow stuff. Shadow tells me what I wanna do. I get this requests, hundreds of requests
and so I look at them and shadow goes, "No, no, no. Yes!" For instance, I got a request from the Land's
End 40th anniversary catalogue asking if I would do a Kinsey Millhone short story. She went, "Yes." It was funny. It seemed funny to me. It was off-beat. And so right away, shadow provided me a little
story and I wrote it. I got this invitation from Elizabeth Burke,
whose work you may know. She was invited to contribute an essay to
this knitting anthology. Shadow went, "Okay, we'll do that." So mine is called, Teaching a Child to Knit
because I taught my granddaughters how to knit, and it's just a set of instructions
about how to teach a child to knit. Even if the child is 103 years old. We're all... And that was like... SG: Then they said to me... They asked everybody to give a few lines explaining
what your essay was about. So my explanation went, "My essay is called
Teaching a Child to Knit. This is about, how shall I put this, teaching
a child to knit." [laughter] How hard is that? But it was fun to do. I like to do off-grid, but I don't have a
lot of time and I don't have a lot of interest in it. My strength is that I am focused on the job
at hand and I don't like to be distracted by short stories that go in somebody else's
anthology. SW: I know you get this question a lot, but
I have to ask it nonetheless, which is, we're only three more books away. SG: I know. SW: And so how do you feel... It's weird to think of it from a mortality
standpoint or a retirement standpoint. But as we get closer to... And it is still going to be called "Z" is
for Zero? SG: "Z" is for Zero. SW: Yes. So how do you make sure not to think about
that? SG: Well, for one thing, everybody in my age
range is retired except me. I'm still working. Where did I get... They're playing golf. They're taking cruises. I'm sitting at my machine suffering 'cause
these books are really hard. I'm trying to get some pity sales here. [laughter] And so when I'm in a book and it's
going well, there's just nothing better, nothing better. It's like heaven on earth. I think of it as putting on a fur coat. It's heavy and it's warm and you're wearing
it all day long. When it's not going well, which is a lot of
the time, it is just excruciating. It's just excruciating. So when I'm in that excruciating place, it's
like, "Please, just let me finish this book. Whoever is up there, whoever... Shadow, whoever is in charge, please, let
me get to the end." S1: 'Cause I think, "Oh, man! To go to the grocery store in the middle of
the day? Wooh! To take a walk just because I want to?" And so sure enough, I get to the end of the
book, is like, "Wooh." So for three days, I can go to the grocery
store in the middle of the day and take a nap any time I want. Day four, this little voice says, "And that's
it? You're going to the grocery store and taking
a nap, and that's your life?" [laughter] So then I think, "Oh, I guess I
better write another book." So [laughter] what I'm saying in part is when
I get to the end of "Z" is for Zero, there are gonna be two days when I'm really one
happy camper and day three or four, it's like I'll be back at it. Writing is what I do, and it is what my life
is about. It is what gives structure to my days. It gives meaning to everything I do. And to be without that, I think would be pathetic. And also like, "I'm not gonna to be on your
committee, uh-uh." [laughter] For one thing, if I were on... I'm so bossy. It's like, "Committees are such a waste of
time." It's like, "I will tell you what to do, this
committee meeting is now over." So [laughter] I can't be on your committee. I'm not gonna do volunteer work 'cause I'm
just not nice. [laughter] I'm not. SG: So what am I gonna do with myself? I'm gonna write something else. And trust me, Kinsey Millhone is not gonna
let me write about anybody but herself, on strict orders. I suppose I could come up with another series
but nobody would like it. They wouldn't. You'd be all so mad. It's like, "I didn't like that character." SW: Well, you know what happened with Ian
Rankin, is he tried to end the Inspector Rebus and move on to a different series. And they didn't like it, so he brought Rebus
back. SG: See. So, we'll see. For one thing I don't wanna write when the
juice is gone. I have seen writers who just do beautiful
work. And don't ask me to name names. SW: That's fine. [chuckle] SG: Yeah. And then they keep going, they're getting
older. And it's like stop already when you're ahead
of the game. So, I'll be close to 80 and I grant you, I'm
sure gonna be in great shape by then. But there is a piece of me thinking, suppose
I get kind of dotty, kind of daffy, which is I guess possible. I don't wanna write bad books. I don't wanna write flat books. If I don't have the guts to do it and the
courage and the... I feel honour-bound to do the best job possible. And if I feel I'm losing it, then I'd rather
hang it up as a courtesy to you. SW: It seems to me, and this comes back to
not wanting to write the same book twice again, that you still have questions you have to
ask of yourself as a writer. And so I wonder, and you don't have to necessarily
share it if you feel that you need to keep it closed, but do you still feel like there
are so many questions that you have not asked yourself as a writer that you still can explore
in these three more books you need to write? SG: Yeah, but the questions that interests
me can't be answered. The simple one being, why do people kill each
other? You tell me. I don't know. I am fascinated by crime. I love the mindset of criminals. There is something that just kills me, it's
just so strange. My new favourite are embezzlers. They're ripping of the Girls Scouts of America
and they're thinking they're not gonna get caught? Yes, you are. Bernie Madoff, come on. So there is something about that, that I find
appealing. But it's not like I have huge philosophical
issues to settle. I just wanna know what makes people cross
the line. And there better be 26 answers to that [chuckle]
'cause I've only done... SW: Twenty six reasons why. SG: Yeah, right. SW: Before I open up the question to the audience,
this is just a question that I personally wanna know which is, what book that you love
would people be surprised that you love? SG: There is a book called, The Speed Queen
by Stewart O'Nan. It is a book I wish I had written. Like, "Why didn't I think of that?" And I'll tell you the conceit. This is a book told from the point of view
of a woman who's been part of some sort of nasty mass murder, and she's in prison on
death row. And I think Stephen King has submitted this
list of questions to her. If she can answer them before they execute
her, he has agreed to pay her child's college education. The beauty of this is she answers these, I
think, 50 questions, doesn't tell you what the question is. She just gives you the answer. So as a reader you're putting together this
strange... You know she has done something so nasty and
you wanna like her, but it's very dark humour. For instance, early, there was somebody, she
and this guy and a woman named Natalie, have done something you don't figure out 'til later. And she's mad because Natalie has written
this book that was a bestseller about massacre. And she said, "It was not a massacre. A massacre is six people or more and we didn't
do that." [laughter] That's so bizarre. And so you just get to read this whole thing
and you put together the crime. It just fascinated me for the conceit of it. So, anyway. SW: And did it cause you to pick up any of
Stewart O'Nan's other books? SG: Oh, yeah. Ghost Country is a good one. He's good. SW: He's one of my favourite writers too,
as it happens, so excellent. We would love to take questions. As you can see there is a mike right in the
centre, so please walk up there. So that we'll be able to hear and you'll be
able to hear. SG: Okay, alright. You're done. Work up your courage, come on. SW: I mean I can just keep asking questions,
but we really love to hear from you. SG: Thank you. S?: Hi, there. I'm really curious, you mentioned about your
mother dying and dealing with it. Did you find it was easier to write after
she died? I'm a struggling playwright. I've had one play that got $14.31. [laughter] And my... One of the people working with me said, "When
you're writing, put your mother in the other room because when you talk about the censoring
voice." So did you find that things opened up and
were easier? Or did it make a difference? SG: She is asking, for those who didn't hear
the question, about whether writing about my mother's death was easier as some remove. I think I had to go straight into the heart
of it. Those stories I wrote in the 10 years after
she died, I wept and wept. And yet it is such clear, true work that 30
years after I wrote those stories, I wouldn't touch 'em. You know, it's like that is exactly the way
it was. It is possible that some distance might give
you a better perspective, but the emotional stuff, I think, is inescapable. You just gotta head right into it because
there is a lot of power in that. And if you wanna harness it, you gotta face
it. S?: Thank you very much. SG: You're welcome. SW: We'll wait, don't worry. [chuckle] S?: My wife and I have read everything since
"A" first came out. That was approximately the same time as we
got married, and it was sort of something we have always done together, even where I
would read some of it aloud. And we've seen basically everything that... SW: If you could speak into the mike, thank
you. S?: Pretty well, everything has happened to
Kinsey along the way as part of her job or part of her personal issues, but my question
and I've always wondering is, what would happen if Kinsey got pregnant? [laughter] SG: What would happen... SW: If Kinsey got pregnant "enceinte"? SG: That's an interesting... He's asking what would happen if she got pregnant. She'd sue the doctor who prescribed the medication. [laughter] SW: It was a terrible mistake. SG: I hate to think about things like that. S?: Why is that? SW: I think she would have a baby. [chuckle] Everybody else is doing it these
days, you know. Is there no morality left, I ask. [laughter] I have even considered, here's
what I have considered and I've never admitted this in public, suppose Kinsey had a baby
girl who then in 20 years became a detective. See? So wouldn't that be good? And then you'd get to see Kinsey in her dotage. You'd get to see this daughter who's bound
to be a kick-ass kid. [laughter] And it would allow me to jump into
the present, right? But I can't work out the mathematics, I'm
really dumb at Math. And so I keep subtracting, if she's 38 now...
[laughter] But it would be interesting. Did that answer your question? S?: No, that answers me question and it's
also... It sort of fits into as well with the occasional... When family members show up and how she treats
them too as well. And I was... Sort of wondered whether if that distance
would happen or whether it would bring them closer together 'cause all of a sudden she's
got a child and they're gonna treat her different, and she's gonna be forced to... SG: Yeah. You're saying that... Yeah, if she had a child, it might close the
distance between grand and... S?: Yeah. SG: Possible. S?: But it could go the other way too as well. She doesn't wanna have anything to do with
their advice. [chuckle] SG: Exactly. Thank you. S?: Thank you. SW: But at the same time, how much can you... You have to block out a lot of readers' suggestions. SG: Oh, I do. And I'm pretty good at it because... [laughter]
Readers have said she should have more than one dress, which is silly. [laughter] They suggest that she either get
a boyfriend or get rid of a boyfriend. You know, it's like, if you... I don't wanna write the scenes. I really don't. When I get... When she has a man in her life, then what
do you do with him? You either have to kill him or they have to
break up, and then readers have opinions about that. So... [laughter] Anyway, I won't go on. SW: Next question. [chuckle] SG: Next? S?: Do you ever get writer's block over a
long period where you think, "I just do not know what to do with this."? And if you do, how do you get through that? SG: She's asking if I ever get writer's block,
which only happens about once a day. [laughter] And I used to think you could power
through writer's block. That is totally incorrect. Writer's block is shadow's message to you
that you are off-track. So writer's block is a blessing because you
have to say to yourself, "Shadow blocks you because you're going in the wrong direction." When you see that block, there are a couple
of things you can do. Either abandon hope all together and start
something new, or back up. I keep journals for every novel that I write. So if I get blocked, I just go back to the
beginning of the journal and start working my way forward. The answer is always there. What blocks you is you don't wanna look at
it. Sometimes you don't wanna give up the work
you've done, you get too ego involved in what you've already put on paper. But when I'm blocked, it is... It's like, "Thank you, shadow. Let me go look at this and figure out where
I'm off." So be happy if you have a block. SG: And the big block was "S" is for Silence
and "T" is for Trespass. I thought they would do me in. I'd sit at my machine thinking, "I'm gonna
throw up right here on my keyboard." But there's no way to fight it. You just have to embrace it and you have to
wait it out. So I have an essay that I keep working on
called "On Writer's Block and the Husking of Black Walnuts," which I've... I'm just thinking 'cause that's how I cured
one of my things about... Anyway, if I ever finish it, I'll let you
know. SW: Next question. S?: I wanted to ask you, did you, when you
first started writing a series, consider putting... Writing it in the third person narrative rather
than Kinsey being the voice? And if you considered that, like what were
the pros and cons? And what do you think would have happened
to the story if she didn't speak? SG: Yeah. She's asking about first person versus third. And my choice was almost involuntary because
when I started "A" is for Alibi, I'd never written a mystery novel. I knew nothing. I did not know what a private investigator
did. I did not know police procedure. I did not know California criminal law, which
I still don't know. But when it came time to set up the protagonist,
I decided to play the part myself. It's like I'll be her. Because the only thing I knew was being female,
so I made Kinsey Millhone female not as a protest, not as political statement, it's
like desperation. And writing in the first person keeps you
in character. The trick of it is that first person can become
very annoying. If you don't like that voice, if the voice
seems too self-satisfied or narcissistic, then you alienate your reader. SG: So if you write first person, you almost
have to write first person as though it's third. Third person is okay. It gives you some flexibility. But first person will keep you absolutely
in the moment. And I think that gives reality to your work. I mean doing multiple points of view has also
allowed me to do third person, and that's fun too. It's kind of freeing. SW: But just to chime in before we take more
questions, if you were to switch to third, you would lose the conceit of "Respectfully
Submitted." SG: Yes. That's right, right. She's talking about the fact that early in
the books, I used to, at the end of each book, calculate how much Kinsey Millhone had earned
from that case because I was talking about a professional woman and I thought, "Guess
what? She's not just doing favours for her friends. She is a working woman." And I wanted the reader to understand she
was supporting herself by fair means or foul. So at the end, the conceit is that each of
these books is Kinsey's account of what happened after the fact. And so the ending on most books is, "Respectfully
Submitted, Kinsey Millhone. That is her report to you. So I would lose that if I shifted. SW: Okay, next question. S?: What's the deal with Henry and Kinsey? It sounds like they should get married or
something. [laughter] SW: No! [chuckle] You have my opinion. SG: We'll see. I don't know. They're not gonna get married, kids. [laughter] Although, isn't he cute? Come on. Yeah. My problem with Henry Pitts is to keep him
from being too perfect. So, that's why you'll see him be cranky sometimes. He's so perfect. I adore him. But anyway... Yes, ma'am? S?: We've seen some great Hollywood adaptations
of book series, we've seen some awful Hollywood adaptations of book series. Have you ever given thought to having Kinsey
on the screen? [laughter] SW: There was a reason I did not ask Sue about
this. [chuckle] SG: No. I worked in Hollywood for 15 people, 15 people,
yeah, 15 years. It's... I just... I'm not gonna do it. Reading is like a movie in the mind. You get to see her, you get to cast the character,
you get to be part of that adventure. If Hollywood takes over and casts the part,
who are they gonna cast? Name one. In the olden days, one of the suggestions
was Sally Struthers. [laughter] SG: See? Or who was the one... There was another one who was in MASH or was... SW: Loretta Swit. SG: Yeah. Yeah. It's like, do you read these books? Do you have any... [laughter] But Hollywood,
they always have good ideas about what to do with somebody else's work. I would understand why people cross the line. I would have to kill somebody. [laughter] I don't want their money and I
don't wanna give away the only power I have. This is my life's work. And if you think I'm selling out, you're crazy. I'm not gonna do it. [applause] SW: Next question. S?: Early in "W", you make this... Kinsey makes the statement, "It's folly to
assign meaning to every chance event. Yeah, we do it all the time. The every is telling." Do you have any coincidence that you assigned
meaning to, that you'd like to tell us about? SG: Play that again. SW: Do you have any coincidence that you assigned
meaning to... She was quoting from "W". SG: That's a very excellent point because
here's the deal. If you're writing detective novels, I'll just
tell you, if you... You cannot use a coincidence middle to late
in a story. If you're gonna use a coincidence, you gotta
lead with it. It's like you gotta lead with it because that's
the point. I do believe there is such a thing as synchronicity,
odd things happen. In a mystery novel, you can't use that as
a plot device, but you can use it as a launching point. But you have to kinda own up to the fact. Now, in "W," there are two story lines; one
is the death of an unscrupulous private investigator named Pete Wolenski, the other is a dead homeless
person found in a sleeping bag on the beach who has Kinsey's name and telephone number
in his pocket. Now when I started, I knew how they connected
later. It took me one year to figure out which story
to lead with because I would try one and the whole thing would collapse. I'd try it the other way and it would look
coincidental. So that's a huge important issue. And I bless you for that. Thank you. SW: Next question. S?: You indicated earlier that when you originally
introduced different perspectives, that a lot of people... There was a bit of a backlash to that. And I admit I was part of that, you might
have received and angry email. [laughter] But we're good now. [laughter] I'm here. But I was upset because you kind of deviated
from the classic detective role. And I wonder if you think that maybe it didn't,
in some ways, kind of detract from Kinsey's kind of investigative prowess to add those
different perspectives. SG: Explain to me what she asked me? [chuckle] SW: When you started adding in multiple perspectives,
she like, many fans, were taken back. SG: Right, right. 1:01:18 SW: And so... I'm sorry I'm gonna have to ask you to repeat
that but just how... 1:01:21 S?: Yeah, alright. I was taken back because I thought it deviated
from Kinsey's kind of inherent gift. 1:01:26 SG: Well, you know my job is to do
my job and may it solve some problems. Funnelling everything through the sensibility
of Kinsey Millhone gives me somethings and takes away some other thing. To me, those stories are more dimensional. It's like a hologram and not everybody takes
to that. Some people want it to be strictly from her
point of view but too bad. [laughter] [applause] SG: Sorry, sweetie. SW: Before you... I just wanted to chime in briefly which is
to say, having read a lot of mid-century crime fiction and detective fiction, you'd be surprised
how many of them use different points of view. So... SG: Oh, thank you, in the great tradition. SW: Yes. It's actually multiple great traditions. Sir, you are the last question for tonight. S?: Alright. Would you describe a typical working day when
you're writing? And I also wonder how many drafts you typically
do? SG: Alright, I will tell you both of those
things. I, and this will sound like I'm not a... I do a lot of exercise 'cause I think writing
is tension-filled and stressful. So my typical day, I get up in hot weather. I walk four and a half to five miles, first
thing. Then I shower, go to my desk usually by eight
or 8:30. I do my emails. I get on Facebook, if you wanna visit I'm
on Facebook every morning that I'm home and I chat back and forth. You can make nice comments if you're rude. [laughter] SG: And then I keep a journal for each of
these novels. And the journals, I do on the computer. And it is... The journal is like a long whiny letter I
write to myself about the writing of the book. So for instance with, "W" is for Wasted, the
manuscript was 660 double-spaced pages. The journals came to 1298 single-spaced pages. And that's just me being stupid on paper. It's me not knowing where to go. I work by trail and error. So I usually work... It's better to do page count if you're getting
honest about it. I could claim I work eight hours but I can
sit there wasting time. I play computer solitaire, free cells, very
good with it. [laughter] SG: You clean your desk, I can waste a lot
of time looking like I'm working when I'm not. Page count, even two pages day, which is not
a bad place to start, it doesn't sound like much. If I can do two pages in 20 minutes, hot damn,
I'm off the hook. If it takes me six hours, too bad, I sit there
'til it's done. Generally I write every sentence over and
over until it sounds right. So I'll do a chapter and then I move to chapter
two as warm-up. I go back and look at chapter one. And you can hear sentences that are awkward
or have little knots in them. So I'm smoothing it out. I'm looking at sentences that are out of place. I'm finding the tone is off or the pace is
off. So I'm correcting as I do the new material
and, gradually, by going back over and over and over, I get all of it right. SG: But if I'm in chapter 25 and I think,
oh, shoot, I forgot that. I can always go back, God bless computers,
and put it in. By the time I get to the end of a book, generally,
I'm ready to let it go because I have been so meticulous and I have obsessed for so long
over every piece of it. So I am incapable of doing a rough draft and
then going back and fixing it. In my experience, if you're one degree off-track
in chapter one, that gap is gonna get huge. So if I think I made a mistake, I fix it. And I sit there until I get it right, which
is why it took me a year to figure out "W" is for that. So, I'm slow at it, but I'm very... I'm a purist when it comes to what I'm doing. S?: Thank you. SG: You're welcome. [applause] SW: And thank you all for coming to this great
event. And most of all, thank you, Sue. SG: Thank you. SW: You put on a hell of a show. [laughter] SW: Thank you.
