Stanford Psychologist Reveals The Most Important Thing To Do When Depressed | Kelly McGonigal

movement is using your body to engage with life movement is engaging with life stop moving you start to disengage with life so at a very deep level exercise is good for mental health you know for people who have that experience when you're in it you don't want to move and so here we can be talking about an endorphin rush or to feel better effect but if you're actually in a depressive episode or you're grieving it is very possible that your brain has forgotten how to give you an endorphin rush for movement and what I want so much for people to know is that that is true and also movement is one of the only things you can do that helps your brain remember how to experience reward and hope so Kelly welcome to the podcast thank you so much I have been so excited to get you on the show I think I first came across your work with your TED talk 2013 2013 yeah so I think that's when I first came across here so what almost seven years ago now and then when I heard you had a new book out I was super excited now it wasn't the book I expected that I was going to get from you what did you expect I don't I I don't think I expected anything really but I guess I'm you see a work on stress and willpower but I've heard you say that this is the book that you've always wanted to write yeah it's so funny because you know I had so I have written a bunch of other books and my editor said this was the first book that I was really in because movement is so important to me I feel like it's almost a love letter and it's the first book I've written where I even like I'm willing to tell stories about myself and I hope that my my love and my passion comes through I feel like you know I've always written books that that aim to help some sort of suffering in the world through the lens of psychological science but this is the book that really when I think about the one thing that has supported me throughout my life it's been exercise and movement and the community I found through it and the way that it supports my psychological well-being so in a way this is the book I've always wanted to write because I feel like it's sort of the story of how I have found way to support my own mental health yeah I think you can tell that when you read it I'm not finished it completely yet but I love what I've read so far before we sort of tap into it because I think there are so many angles we could take you've it's such a comprehensive book just about a concepts you you've come down here to LA where we're currently recording this but you're heading back to Stanford aren't you you're teaching this afternoon yeah so people who are not familiar with your work you know you lecture at Stanford so maybe can you expand a little bit on that yeah I have a weird position so I'm a lecturer at Stanford I teach in the business school I also teach through continuing studies I'm a psychologist by training a researcher and so I have this academic side people who know my my own scientific research I've looked at how people can strengthen compassion and empathy and what the benefits of that are and then I had this whole other side career where I teach movement and dance so the class that I'm flying back to teach is actually a dance fitness class and I've been teaching group exercise since I was a graduate student at Stanford and so I basically never gave up either side of my work the academic and the movement yeah it's pretty cool how you managed to combine all the fit together it does sound like a dream career for many people talking about movements obviously you're away from home at the moment so I think you just stayed in LA last night yes so given the movement is such a big part of your life what sort of moment have you done since you came yeah sure this is great last 24 hours first of all my hotel has a peloton bike okay and I never did peloton until I started going on book tour and so many of the people who interviewed me when we were talking about what's a form of movement that you love or what's a form of movement that makes you feel amazing so many people were talking about peloton so I got to do a ride last night in my hotel and it was amazing and I get it it's like the music completely drives the experience I also got to take a ballet class this morning right before an interview and we did a little bit of Swan Lake choreography I was so in over my head but you know I thought I'm here in LA why not do a movement form that's out of my comfort zone and get a little bit of that feeling of the grace and the beauty yeah Wow that's inspiring to see what you've done since it since you got here what about you also you've been here a little bit longer right what what about me so I arrived I flew on Saturday so I got to LA on Saturday night I didn't sleep very well first night so they can work with about 2:00 a.m. but I am actually well how do i phrase this I'm just on the I've come off the back of one of my book tours in the UK and the first interview I gave no the second issue I gave was on something called a Chris Evans breakfast show that's very big an influential show and we were chatting about the podcast which an about the book and then right at the end of this half-hour segments Chris and his team challenged me to do the London Marathon and at that time I think it was 12 or 14 weeks away right so I accepted that challenge on air you know there's nothing like being asked in front of you know half three million people if you're gonna do something but then I sort of went into a month or two of just craziness where I was on the word I had a few family issues to take care of and I couldn't trying and I whenever I tried to run I couldn't get must 1k without my hamstring going and so I've been seeing people I've been seeing two amazing people Gary Ward and Helen Hall who are helping me with my biomechanics and something has unlocked in the last 7 or 10 days so I call a yesterday and I walked for 15k on the beach so I didn't you know I just thought like help me with jet lag or get me out and so just between Santa Monica and Venice I I saw I saw a bit of them I saw a lot of them when they finished actually my hotel was right across from the finish line so part of my joy of movement on this trip was I got to stand outside and cheer on because I got in late all the people who were finishing at like 6 hours 7 hours and those are like the hardcore people because they're the ones out there the longest like not the professional athletes so that was really fun to do they look exhausted yeah some what was so great okay so in the in the book one of the stories that I tell is about how music can help you power through when things are difficult both the movement and in life and one of the stories that I loved was a story about runner he's like 76 he runs every New York City Marathon and one of his most memorable moments was he had hit a wall and someone had leaned out of their apartment window with a boom box playing the theme from Rocky and literally I was standing there cheering people on and you see these people they're actually being supported by the the race staff so there are people who like maybe have gotten injured or sick and they're already wearing their their little thing to keep them warm and they're being sort of walked through the finish line by supports that and somebody leans out their apartment window with their phone and they're playing the rocky theme song to cheer people on and I was like I'm so glad I was here for this yeah I mean that's incredible I tell you what that reminds me of so on the plane over on Saturday so London to LA flights and like towards the end of the flight I was like okay I just want to watch something mindless now so I I put on the you know the screen I was flicking through and and there was a film a saying it was Creed - I think you know what I don't want to I don't want anything intense I just want I bet if switch off so I put it on so you still love the rocky films as a kid and it's really interesting about halfway through or maybe two-thirds in you know before the final fights the rocky theme team comes on did that you know and it's oh yeah I'm from Philly I know it hey and I'm listening and I'm I'm sitting there just watching it feeling tired I want to get up and move like and it does it's something evocative that it sort of reminds you if if for me it reminds me I've been a kid or a teenager watching Rocky films and then you'd see rocky Cameron train before the big fight ends so what is going on there that mean you mentioned music and the concepts of that chap trying to finish the marathon you've done a bit of movement around music this morning in ballet and I'm sitting on a train feeling a plain feeling tired and I hit the rocky theme chin and I want to get up in there so what's going on there I know I'm so glad we're starting with music so when you listen to music that you enjoy it activates the motor system of the brain and it gives you this rush of dopamine and adrenaline and activates the whole motor circuit it's basically an invitation to move and it's one of the reasons why people love listening to me because it's it's as energizing as if you were actually to get up and start moving around and also we have all of these emotional associations with music so music activates the motor system and movement and also our emotional memory system so any song you listen to that you have these positive associations with is starting to pull those memories you know out and helping you relive them and I feel like you like one of the greatest gifts we can give to ourselves is to actually move in pleasurable or meaningful ways to songs that we love so that when we need that extra boost that you can actually like put it on your phone listen to it make it like a walk-on song so you can walk into a meeting and you have that embodied memory of you know I danced to that song at my wedding or I train to that song like we all deserve a walk-on song yeah I guess so wake up song if you're on an airplane so should we all move to music I mean is that if music I think the way you put it is beautiful that music is an invitation to move everything what a what a lovely take on music it's an invitation to move I've heard you said it before and I really sat with that to think yeah it really is isn't it because no matter what that music is it can be fast it can be slow but it does something to you you you move in it's slightly different way when you hear it well so Oliver Sacks says when we listen to music we listen with our muscles and Aristotle said that when you listen to music the quality of the music enters your soul and I feel like like both of those are evident when you look at what happens in the brain when we listen to music that it is activating our emotional systems and our movement systems and like the question so should we all move to music one of the things one of the my favorite stories in the music chapter in the book was a man who has a young daughter and he talked about how his daughter loves dance parties and she's always asking him to dance with her and she'll pull out her little play phone and be like more and more and he talks about how he'll dance with her in like the aisle at Target and play like you know shake it off by Taylor Swift and they'll be dancing in the aisles and he talks about how like the joy that he feel in that moment and the memories that he knows he's going to cherish and I feel like that's true you know there's a reason that that around the world every culture puts music and movement at the heart of its most meaningful traditions and celebrations I mean we we dance to come together we make music in order to empower ourselves and I feel like you know the entire book each chapters focus on a sort of a core human capacity to experience joy and how movement helps us access it and even amplify it so things like you know it's in human nature to enjoy making music and to enjoy listening to music and movement amplifies the joy that we get whether we are making music or participating in music or you know lip synching to music and I think it's just one example of how movement often like it taps into something that's a key part of what it means to be human and allows us to to experience and express that particular joy yeah for sure hearing that story reminds me of a patient of hats it was well it was two patients it was a 16 year old girl and a 42 year old mother who was struggling to lose weight and they you know they had come in a few times and it was really interesting they seem to have but if there was a bit of disharmony in their relation you could tell she'd reported it to me privately as well they tried all kinds of things to lose weight and they weren't really getting anyway they're very frustrated and I noticed that the daughter always had earbuds hanging out when she came in I think like it's mom dragging her in and I can't remember what t-shirt she had it was always a fur band okay this interesting what if we try and prescribe something and I hate the word prescribed in that context if I'm honest around movement and music so I prescribe for them five minutes of dancing I said hey like maybe when you come back from school before we do anything as soon as you guys come home you dance for five minutes together on whatever tunes you want and it was incredible because it it there was a sort of ripple effect from that they won't engage had relationship problems just those five minutes of dancing together every day very quickly transform their relationship there then dance for 10 or 15 minutes it's something they really look forward to that bonding then they saw cooking healthy meals together and it leads to this you know ripple effect this cascade effect spiral upward spiral yeah and that all started with music can we like break this down sorry what is this story because there's so much science behind the brilliance of that prescription so first of all we know that when you move to music it changes how you interpret the physical sensations of movement so one reason that people think they don't like to exercise I mean they don't like it they don't enjoy it is they don't like the sensations of their heart rate increasing or you know sweating breathing strep maybe struggling to breathe a little bit and we know that if you interpret those physical sensations as I'm out of shape I'm too old I'm you know this isn't for me it creates us actually like the negative cascade we're then you think I don't want to do this and you have a negative memory of the exercise experience and research shows that when you have music that you like music that's empowering maybe the lyrics motivate you or you know it's someone like lizzo who is just like the embodiment of female power and joy that it changes how you interpret those sensations so suddenly you might be thinking you know my heart is pounding and you start to think you know that's what happens when I'm having fun or this is a sign that I'm getting stronger and that feeling of sweat starts to feel like evidence of expressing your power and and using your energy and that actually changes the way people remember the exercise experience too so if you move to music that you like you're more likely to remember the experience as being empowering and enjoyable and you're more likely to do it again so that's sort of one thing that's great about your prescription but also we know that when you move with other people the endorphins and the endocannabinoids that get released they're actually bonding hormones so people who move with other people tend to like them more and trust them more and it creates this kind of social connection it makes it easier to connect with people it makes it easier to resolve conflict so if you want to strengthen a relationship with someone moving with them is one of the best ways to do that it just Prime's your neuro chemistry to be able to have an easier rapport and connection and again like you said so much of this is an upward spiral I mean there's research showing that if you exercise you have better interactions with other people for the whole next 24 hours and part of it is brain chemistry and part of it is how it changes your mindset and how it makes you feel about yourself but um you know I love this idea that you could take a small dose of movement something that feels accessible and fun and meaningful and that it could have all of these ripple effects that you described and I think making it small and accessible is really key right because you know I've been a medical doctor for almost 20 years now and so this fundamentally is something I really wanted to talk to you about today is the way we talk about movement in society has conventionally been around you know burning off energy burning off calories it's good for your physical health I mean it's very one-dimensional narrative yeah it's punishment for enjoying life that's how a lot of people think about it like oh I I indulged so now I have to repent yeah you mentioned punishment but even that even though the the the vernacular around movement I'm gonna kill myself in the gym you know what does that mean you know we've sort of I don't think we have realized the implications of talking about movement in this way has had because some people will say you know it's just not for me exercise it's just not for me movement what would you say to people who say that and in mindset you know influence is so much of how we experience something so I describe movement as using your body to engage with life and I think of whether you are you call it movement of you call it exercise it's really about finding an activity that allows you to engage with life the way that you want to so maybe you love how it feels when you go for a walk in nature or you love how it feels when you run and you feel fast and free and you can sense your own persistence or you love how it feels to move and flow and tai chi or yoga or have dance parties in your living with your kid and that you use your body to engage with life to express different aspects of your human nature to connect with other people and you know if you're experiencing movement instead as a punishment for something you aid or an investment in your future well-being that that is not connected to something you actually enjoy it just sets people up to first of all find an activity that they hate I mean if people are obsessed with looking at their watch and seeing like these calorie counters or you know counting how many steps they've taken it's very easy to miss how powerful you feel when you lift something heavy or how much fun it is the high-five someone after you do an exercise or you know go for a run so I think we need a total mindset reset about what movement is and why we do it so that people first of all are more likely to choose something that actually connects them to joy and meaning and also so that we we can sort of escape the voices in the head that often come up when you come to exercise from a place of shame or fear that's so common yeah it's really common I thought a lot about fitness trackers over the past few years and my view on them has sort of changed in it and it does from day to day because I I kind of see them a look a little bit like blood pressure monitors in the sense that some patients say hey doctor shall I buy a blood pressure monitor and for some of them it's the best thing in the world because they check it once a week they use it as a way to you know nudge them in the right direction if the blood pressures going up they'll say you know what I need to get back on track with my lifestyle whereas other people will buy it and check it two three times a day stress out every time as little change and almost comes paralyzing and I'm interested in your view I guess for me fitness trackers can potentially be a very similar thing I do feel more and more that we have become so obsessed with what's on our wrist or what's on our phone that we've lost connection with what the movement is now I totally accept for some people it can be motivating but you know what I've only got six thousand steps today I want to hit 10,000 a day that's gonna motivate me to go out so I think it's about finding the balance somewhere and I guess for different people the balances is somewhere different but what's your view on these trackers so I'm a big fan of you need to conduct an experiment on yourself so I'm always encouraging people to think about what their goal is and what their values are and like is this something that supports you in doing what what is important to you I think fitness trackers are often a a first start for people you know I have a friend evidently they're trying to to motivate someone in the family to move more so they all got one together so that they could support this one person and I like that idea of it there's a story in my book about a woman who wanted to become active after experiencing a devastating loss and so her husband gave her a Fitbit for Christmas and she she said okay I'm gonna do this I'm going to embrace life and start moving forward and that helped her feel like she was making some progress and then she found a running group and it was actually the community support of the running group that helped her get to the next stage of moving through her grief but the Fitbit was the first start so I feel like you know for a lot of people it's worth experimenting with but I really agree with this idea that if you get obsessed with metrics you might not be paying attention to your direct experience and I think paying attention to your direct experience gives you so much feedback about you know for example when you move do you feel better afterwards that like that is a really great metric that your your counter is not gonna be able to tell you but when you found the ideal form of movement for you you shouldn't have to recover psychologically from it you should feel set up to walk into your home or your next meeting with a sense of I feel more energized I feel more optimistic I'm like a best version of myself and you know there's no fitness tracker that's gonna tell you that but you can check in with how you feel yeah it's almost as if at the end of the run or the race or whatever like there's such an obsession with okay you know what what happened what was my heart rate what was this we're actually in that moment where we could be tapping into our hearts and how we're feeling we can be distracted by these other metrics that frankly we can check later as well and maybe maybe the take home might be for some of us is when we finished that particular movement maybe sit with it for a minute or two just just just how do you feel you can check the metrics later if that's something means a lot to you but maybe don't do it straight away potentially you know I never like telling people what they should be doing it's about just having hopefully I did you know sharing ideas that may or may not resonate is it is it helping you experience movement in a way that you enjoy and is it helping you stay active and you know people everything I feel like everything about the science is an experiment that you conduct on yourself I mean actually the research suggests that probably trackers aren't that effective at motivating people but it does for some it does for some it really does but that's inherently the problem I won't say the problem but that is what we see with research all the time why isn't it we look at these these gross you know conclusions these simplifications and it's always an average and there's a distribution and who knows you might be the outlier yeah and if you're someone listening to this right now you might go hold in a minute I get what you you're saying Kelly or what you're saying wrong and but ultimately this fitness tracker on my wrist is the only thing that it's got me off the sofa and now I run it every other day and I love it and the track and made me do that and helps me do it 504 yeah you mentioned a running group have you heard of something called Park run yes of course is it big hearing this you know I don't know because I so many the people so I write about good gym in a book and a lot of people who are participants in good gym also are big fans of Park run so that's how I've heard it come up quite a bit from people who are poor on it is it's almost like an epidemic in the UK at the moment it's a it's a good epidemic it's growing rapidly and I actually need to be the CEO of Park run on this podcast maybe a year ago what was really interesting is that he said he said wrongly the thing about Park run is that Park run is a social intervention masquerading as a running event I know I love it I feel the same way about the classes that I teach that people show up thinking they're showing up for a workout and then they have a positive experience of belonging and connection and as I've heard from people who are part of these running groups too that they can become a real source of social support I mean you know there's there's so many important dimensions of social community there your close relationships you know your partner ships in life your family but it's so important to have social relationships that are a little bit casual but where you know you can show up and belong where people are happy to see you and when you're having a bad day they give you you know just that level of support where it's okay to be who you are and there are people who care and it's amazing how much movement facilitates that level of connection where you're sort of allowed to be who you are when things are difficult people support you in this kind of easy way that we sometimes don't find in our close relationships where you know things get very complicated and so you know I think that parkrun is a great example that good gym is a great example of that and you know here in the US you see that a lot with CrossFit gyms and group exercise classes yeah part Park one has transformed my weekends and my family's weekends you know my son first noticed some runners in the local park maybe three four years back so Danny what they're doing you know why they all got these things on and stuff and you know that's how we got into Park Kona we started as in the UK on Saturdays as the adult Park Run which is a 5k run and on the Sundays in some areas they have a kids park ground which is a two K run so I think since my son was five we've been doing the 2k1 which you know they would walk at first and then run but now he does the Abbott one every Saturday even on Saturday I think he did it while I was flying he actually does it you know with with someone else that goes under the age of 11 you can't do it without responsible adult with you but what is son is not only that Fitness it's it helps us feel part of the local community right and I know I've heard you on a previous podcast you mention values you match one of your values has been recently I think to engage with your local community now there's many ways you can engage with a local community but movement is such a beautiful way to do it because I'd notice with my kids because they see the same people every week they bump it and the same people in the supermarkets that's just it helps you feel that you know in this increasingly disconnected and isolate to world it brings people together and you know one of the thesis one of the idea is one of the central ideas in your book that I'm getting as I read it is this idea that moving together with other people helps us to cooperate and feel part of and that's incredible that's a different narrative on movement than what we conventionally being told I know and it's it's such a needed medicine in our world right now that that kind of belonging and community you know I think one of the reasons why movement and things like parkrun are things like like my dance classes help people experience that is movement often asks us to be the best version of ourselves and also like good good friends to other human beings so you know you go for a run and it's just so natural to cheer other people on like if you finish first to support other people and finishing it's so natural to receive that support it's like an easier place to allow yourself to be congratulated and supported we get to practice these kind of rituals of just like easy human interdependence which is can be sometimes a little bit different than sometimes team sports I know there's in the u.s. there's a lot of concern about people getting looks so competitive with it and it bringing out maybe the worst side of parents or kids but in things like runs and you know like Ninja Warrior training and all these other places where where people experience in connection it's because like you're asked to do things that are a little bit hard and then when you do it people people congratulate you and see your strength and you get to do that for others and there's this kind of bigger than self effort and bigger than self joy that people experience that is some psychologists call it a sense of we agency now you get together and you're doing something and you experience a sense of self that literally transcends like the the borders of your skin and your your body you feel connected to almost like a community is like an organism in itself I mean it's such like we could get into the neuroscience of this but literally if you're running in a pack or you're in a dance class and you're moving in sync with other people your brain starts to it's sense of awareness so that you literally can like the people you see running and stride with you or the people you see moving in a dance class with you your brain is like that's happening at the same time that my brain is saying run or stretch your arm and it just starts to assume I'm part of something bigger an organism that's all moving as one and it creates this this amazing sense of self transcendence it's it's incredible that you know you're a trained scientist and we we can and we will go into the nearest site on what's going on when we move but there's another narrative at play here isn't it there's an almost non-scientific almost spiritual narrative and and I find that incredibly fascinating there the science and the spirituality together because I think we all know that for people who do move I know before we started you're saying that this is a love letter isn't it this your book and it's gonna help people who have experienced joy and improvements of their mental health when they move it's gonna help them go get this is why it happens and you know I feel that as well but there's you know I spoke to someone called Sanjay for a while on on this pockets about last time I was in LA I interviewed him here and I think you'd love that podcast actually it's he he was the die rich on a film called 31 hundreds where it's this race in New York and Central Europe where they run oh yes I think The New Yorker wrote an article about them yeah okay yes I'm familiar with this yeah and it was just incredible and these guys move round like a one-mile block in New York City and they do it for about 50 60 days they're running like over a marathon a day and and it's just incredible bits because it's about it is about self transcendence it's about it's about movement I think is a way of bringing people together movement is a way of you know becoming greater than your individuality and I sort of feel I don't know is this why movement and running and endurance events why they're they're growing and they're becoming more and more popular all around the world are have we become a disconnected isolate a society where actually we are discovering more and more now that when we push ourselves outside our comfort zone and we do let's say an endurance event or we go out and challenge our bodies it's actually having benefits for us far beyond the physical benefits but there's mental and emotional benefits absolutely you know so oh gosh there's so much I want to say about this let me just backtrack for a second so you mentioned I'm a scientist and one of the things that I I want to communicate is that for me science and spirituality are not in opposition so if you were to look at my early work I did a lot of work looking at yoga and my research on meditation and sort of what's happening in your body and brain and what the benefits of that are and I feel like you know it's not that we need science to prove things that we can directly experience but sometimes the science can also help us feel that sense of awe Lund wonder like when I understand that my muscles are sending proteins into my bloodstream that act to give my brain hope when they cross the blood-brain barrier I experience a sense of awe and wonder that actually feels almost spiritual so I feel like one of the one of my goals is actually to help people to have almost like a religious experience around the neuroscience to that it's a phenomenal what humans are capable of but so this idea that that maybe people are experiencing in their current state of isolation or alienation and despair the need to come together to move or to do these ultra endurance events I think that's definitely true and one of the things that I didn't realize until I started talking to so many people is that intensity actually matters so one of the things that you will hear when people are being encouraged to exercise initially is you only have to do a minute like and it's true there's like no dose that's too small to get physical mental health benefits you could do as close to nothing and as soon as you take a breath as soon as you take a you know single squat everything is good for you but there does seem to be like a dose response and for people who are dealing with mental health challenges people who are dealing with a sense of isolation sometimes doing things that are really hard seems to kick into gear what's happening in your brain and what happens in your sense of self and your ability to experience transcendence that you can experience while doing a marathon or an ultra marathon that maybe you're not going to experience when you first take that that walk around the block and I think that was a theme that really was revealed to me in so many stories of people who have these amazing spiritual experiences whether they're running an ultra marathon or you know hiking in nature or the first time they you know power lifts you know there was one woman in the book who had a personal best in a power left anything like that's that's hard and she sensed her strength in such an amazing way this was someone who is dealing with severe depression and she decided not to take her own life she had a plan to take her own life and she decided she wanted to live because of that kind of spiritual and emotional experience of literally sensing a strength in herself she didn't know she had and so one of the things that I'm also is one of the messages I'm trying to give people is don't be afraid of going beyond what you think you're capable of if there's any part of you so many people I talked to for the spoke are like oh so the good news is we don't have to run a marathon like you say three minutes of exercise can boost your mood yes that is definitely true and also you might want to run a marathon you might even want to run an ultra marathon to have these transcendent experiences and that's also an option yeah it's there's so much about movement and how we talk about it because some people will be listening and they'll be thinking some people will be running while they listen to this right and we going yeah this is why I run this is incredible you know this is what I feel like after my run but it'll also be someone who might be listening to this while slumped on their sofa in the evening and they hear the words ultramarathon and they're thinking that that just doesn't connect with me in my life like I am busy I work two jobs I'm exhausted I come home and I just want to sit in front of TV and unwind cos life is tough so - that person who struggles to even go for a 20-minute walk every day yeah what would you say to that person well so first of all I often will tell people pick a song you love because of the power of music and then do any sort of movement that works for your body in this moment - the duration of a song you love or a song that reminds you of someone that you love and you do whatever movement feels accessible and positive in this moment and you know if you'll be like well what like what do you mean like do I have to do like exercises you know what most people can figure out how to move their bodies in ways that work for them in that moment so it could be you stand up and stretch it could be that you just play maybe you shadowbox I mean you know the body has an intelligence maybe so somebody who didn't actually make it into the book but someone who someone's story that I was really moved by was someone who literally had had trouble standing because of his health challenges and he worked up to being able to walk the hallway of his apartment and that was a big milestone and then he walked he worked his way up to being able to leave his apartment and walk around the block thing is is you know their every miles there's always a milestone that's within reach and you can move with whatever parts of your body still move so you know in the book I'm visited dance classes for people with Parkinson's disease a gym for people with severe disabilities and neurological disorders no matter what is present in your body right now I'm also someone who deals with chronic pain so I understand that there's a lot of there can be a lot of things going on inside of you whether it's depression or grief or anxiety or pain that makes movement feel intimidating and a lot of this is about self trust that you don't need to listen to somebody else say you have to do a minimum of 20 minutes or a minimum of an hour or it has to be this hard that if you set the intention to move your body with gratitude for having connection to life that often people can innovate their own early workouts and then you can go find a community that supports you if that's of interest to you yeah Kelly I love that I mean there's so much of what you say so much of what you've writes about that that deeply deeply connects and me so I'm so excited to be talking c8 that we've become you know I mentioned I didn't like the word prescription before in this context and I don'ts and you know even the way we set up Public Health guidelines I get it right understand we have to give broad recommendations to the population you must do 30 minutes of minimum you know moderate like everyone they keep changing the recommend I've got a fitness professional for 20 years the recommendations are always changing and it seems like the recommendations in part it's based on research and part it's like oh my gosh what can we get people to actually do let's like change the recommendations maybe they'll do it if they know they only have to do it in five to ten minute increments and it doesn't have to be all at once maybe then they'll do it it's like you know yeah maybe that's fundamentally the guy maybe that's it whatever you can do whatever you're willing to do yeah and as controversial as this potentially is may be guidelines may be might be part of the problem because we have making it too prescriptive too too didactic that this is what we the body the public health body or the government say you should be doing each day right if fundamentally hey I don't think anyone likes to be told what to do you know but be I really love what you said like when I asked you what will you say that person who doesn't want to move it was it thinks it's not for them everyone like Smith there's always a song that somebody likes on some level right it may not be your taste may be my taste music it might be nature right so there's so many movement so the other thing I usually start with a song but there's some people who don't love to move to music so think about something that you already love and then think of an activity that allows you to do that so you know if you love animals and maybe you don't have a pet you can't have a pet because of where you live or your circumstances do you know many animal shelters will let you volunteer to take a dog for a walk or a run like maybe there's a person you want to spend time with maybe they love an activity and like you could choose to do it with them do you know how much that strengthens a relationship when you when you endorse an activity someone else loves and they feel like it's their best self and you're like okay I'll go to that yoga class with you there's a lot of ways to think about who and what you already enjoy and I think that rather than thinking of durations and intensities thirty minutes must be moderate people don't even know what that means I think that we should view movement as being as essential to human survival as eating and sleeping you don't say I'll do it like once on the weekend it's part of how you live your life and if if you can find ways to make it part of your life so that it's not a chore it's an activity you love so maybe it's part of your recreation or it's part of how you get about your life you run errands bicycling or walking or it's how you connect with people in your life if you're gonna spend 20 minutes with your partner or with your kid why not make that a movement since we know that the neuro chemistry of movement helps us bond and connect with others and I really think this idea that it's something that you are like shoving into your life that's divorced from your life is one of the reasons people don't actually do it doing it with other people I think is is really fascinating because you know I hear that and I reflect on my own circumstances and what I have chosen to do with my family so if I take my kids for example I do Park running with my son and it's one of the favorite things I do every week because we go out together and like you know you know we share that experiments together and then we you know we walk back afterwards and we're chatting in this yeah I know 10 15 years down the line I look back on these things as real fond memories you know it's it's a fun thing that we do together I have a fond memory of doing sweating to the oldies in my living room with my mom yeah and it was so funny because that was the only workout video she would do with me because it was songs from her youth yeah but I you know I cherish that memory yeah and it's it's and you know what's for me and my son what it started with that and then you know you mentioned endurance and you know conquering something you didn't think you could do I did something called a swim last year for the first time and I had never done an endurance event prior to that but you know I've been through this story before so no necessarily to go through it all again but it was a phenomenal experience for me not least because I had a panic attack in the water cuz I never swam in the ocean before in my life and I went to an event and did it for the first time but I can't get it I finished it I'm not sure I've ever felt that good in my entire life to know that I was scared I was that nature I was in the ocean I conquered it I got through it I finished it felt like read about and then just a few months ago my son and I we flew to someone called Malta and we did a swim run event together so we're now experiencing that together so we bond over that now then I reflect and see well my daughter's very different she doesn't really so far she's not got into that stuff and so what I do with her often is I dance with her so last weekend my wife was away and I was cooking dinner the kids were out somewhere playing and I one of my favorite things to do now and it's a reflection of my age but I love when I'm in the kitchen by myself and I'm cooking dinner I put music on right I've got a CD player I'm very old-school I've got a CD player in the kitchen and last weekend I rediscovered a CD that I hadn't heard in years so Red Hot Chili Peppers blood sugar sex Magik and not heard it in years I listened to it I put it on I thought this is great I put the volume up and then my daughter comes in so like track form I think we start rocking out and dancing together and we were bonding and connecting and then we were there was such fun and laughter over the dinner table afterwards and I think that is because of the movement price of that yeah it's a form of social grooming yeah and one things I also want to like recommend to anyone listening who's thinking about this is how much we can connect over shared music and so like letting if you're if you're doing that with someone else saying like what song should we put on next and letting your kid choose it that that's so empowering to them I mean I mentioned like go to a class with so if someone in your life you know loves yoga and they're always talking about it go to it with them not just to have a shared experience but you are honoring something about them when you move with other people and you let them pick the playlist or the activity you're like saying I see you I value you I see this part of you and that's that's a really meaningful thing but of course there's all this research to that moving together is like you know when primates groom one another and we get that shared endorphin rush and it's eating together does the same thing too so it's a great thing to put together yeah for sure and I really I can't I can't stop thinking about that a whole societal narrative piece the whole idea of prescribing women telling people what movement counts as part of their movement and and you know as if it doesn't count as less it's got a particular name right what do you did what what oh oh I do yoga what I do Pilates a hold on a minute why do we have to name it it's oh I do spinning it's like well there's nothing wrong with that right all three of those things are fantastic if that's what makes you tick but it's I did something I can't shake off at the moment it's as thought that we've got movement or wrong we talk about it or wrong we put people off we make them think they have to go to a gym at a particular time with a particular outfit on when basically what you're saying is it's a fundamental part to be a human is to move I think about it I mean even if you're thinking of movement as medicine so your quadriceps don't really care if you are squatting and lifting things because you're gardening or you're squatting and lifting things in a gym because a coach is telling you do this now your quadriceps just know I need to exert strength I need to use energy and any good that comes from that squat whether it's changing your mood or you know releasing these Myo kinds that protect your health it's gonna happen because you're moving your body and your quadriceps aren't tracking did you do it exactly 20 times for exactly this many repetitions your body and your brain just know I'm engaging with life and like all the benefits that come from movement it's about it's about using energy using your muscles using as much of your body as you can and that's when your brain and body rewards you and and it is we don't need some of this other stuff unless it lights you up movement is life isn't it it's life because everything is moving breathing is your diaphragm and your lungs moving talking communicating yeah facial expressions are moving so actually every single person listening to this podcast right now practices movement on a daily basis whether they think they do or not because talking even pressing play on the podcast app or on YouTube you are moving to do that so I guess you think about expanding your repertoire so if you're someone who thinks you don't like exercise well you already know how to move your arm right to scroll through your phone so you know exercise or movement it's just okay well what's the full range of motion and and that's sort of what we're meant to do and again that you can do with whatever body you have and one of the the experiences I had in researching the book that was really moving for me was going to this class for people with Parkinson's disease where every level of movement is impaired and so you know we're used to thinking of Parkinson's disease as it's harder to walk or maybe there's a tremor in my gestures but as it advances one of the things you see is that it becomes harder to connect with your face that it becomes harder to to make facial expressions that lets you know for example a it's harder for me to smile and connect so that you know I'm happy to see you and one of the things I witnessed in this class is that in part it was the music and then using your body and whatever degree you can getting the motor system of the brain fired up getting that extra bit of dopamine was allowing people to also socially connect more powerfully so by the end of class people who came in it's it's sometimes called the mask of Parkinson's disease they come in and people look like they're not there but they're there but it's just they can't show it and by the end of the class people were able to shake hands and hug and express joy that's actually how we ended the class everyone one at a time was asked to express joy and give it to the group and then we all got to receive it and we ran it went around in a circle and I think people sometimes underestimate how much when you move your body you don't have to have Parkinson's disease for this to be true you are enhancing your capacity to engage with life in the way the ways that humans need to to connect and to have positive action in the world and like like move is that catalyst that whatever needs to happen in you whether you need to find your courage movement can activate that whether you need to find hope movement can activate that and it allows us to to be present in every role in relationship that matters to us movements helps us engage with life I love that because as a daughter I see a lot of people who were starting to disengage with life people with mental health problems people who really struggle you know with day to day things day to day activities and you know in the book you beautifully go through a lot of the research around this about how being sedentary in itself will make you low and depress and I think there's a statistic if I remember it writes that the amount of steps you need to take on a daily basis in order to not get anxious or depressed or something like this is five thousand six hundred and forty-nine yeah so let me explain what this study is so this was a study that took people who were a little bit more active than your average American not like super exercisers I think they were averaging something like nine thousand steps a day when they started the study and then they asked them to reduce their daily step count to what is typical for the average Americans around 5,000 and to not exercise so like if you have the chance to exercise on purpose don't and in this study after about a week of reducing your activity count to the average American they actually only got to about whatever that number was you said it was just over 5,000 88 percent of people were reporting symptoms of depression nearly everyone had less energy more anxiety more stress they reported a 31 percent decrease in meaning and life and so you know what I the way that I take that study and there are other studies showing this to clarify so you're saying these are active people relatively okay so they're roughly getting nine thousand steps a day when they go down to around five and a half thousand which is actually is not just the American average that's pretty much the worldwide out so they go down and you're saying there was a stat I think 88% of them feeling depressed yes and then reporting a decrease in meaning in life yes that's an action with life and so this is fundamentally exactly what you talk about movement is engaging with life stop moving and you start to disengage with life so I do think that that study suggests it's possible that the lifestyle that is becoming more prevalent around the world he's actually inducing depression and a decrease in satisfaction in life I mean we know we can talk about why but there are many reasons that when you become less active you are you're changing your metabolism you're changing your brain chemistry and you're changing your mood in such profound ways that you know some people think there's a very large incidence of depression that is caused simply from being sedentary that's not always going to be the cause and movement will always be the cure but you know a certain amount of suffering in society may actually be directly caused by the fact that people are are living such sedentary lives yeah I spoke to the the research Brendan Starr yes I love his work yeah I've just I think it came out a few weeks ago people love that because he's spoke about a lot of the research on movement and depression and a lack of movement can actually start to make some people again none of us trying to say it it covers everything but for some people it's gonna certainly make a difference and I think we can't eventually know that if anyone's got kids you know this feeling like if in the UK certainly if it's raining or weekend's and the kids are inside and they they start to play up and their mood goes off simply you know 10 minutes outside in the garden in the rain I don't like different people but it's also how it changes your brain so one of things I write about in the book I actually did some like self diagnosis so I found a lot of research suggesting that there are genetic variants that predispose you both to depression and anxiety as well as predisposed you to experiencing the antidepressant effects of movement so yeah you could basically have genetic risk factors for mental health challenges that make you especially susceptible to the mental health benefits of exercise so you know one study was looking at this particular snip this particular genetic variant that if you have it you're something like three times more likely to experience and suicidal thinking but if you exercise for 30 minutes a day it almost completely erases that risk and so I found a whole bunch of these genetic variants and I I did my 23andme tests hacked my raw data because my husband is a medical scientist I mean help me out with this and I have every single genetic variant that is associated with both the increased risk and the increased mental health benefit and so I feel like sometimes when we talk about how how exercise can be an antidepressant yeah of course it's true that most people feel better when they exercise but also it's the case that you can be like me and have be born with a temperament and this vulnerability to experience mental health challenges and exercise can change the function of your brain can change even the structure of your brain in ways that make you more resilient and if you are going through an episode of depression that can help you recover more quickly and that even enhances your brains ability to respond positively to things like antidepressant medication or psychotherapy and we know that exercise it actually it's like an additive it's like a catalyst that increases your brain plasticity for anything that's good for you whether it's a drug that you're taking for your mental health or a therapist that you're seeing and so I feel like there's that's at a very deep level exercise is good for mental health and I and one of the reasons I'd like to talk about this is because you know for people who have that that vulnerability or have that experience when you're in it you don't want to move when you're in it your brain it's it's such like almost a be trial if you're in the middle of a depression depressive episode or grief your brain will not give you the immediate reward and so here we can be talking about an endorphin rush or the feel better effect but if you're actually in a depressive episode or your grieving it is very possible that your brain has forgotten how to give you an endorphin rush from movement and what I want so much for people to know is that that is true and also movement is one of the only things you can do that helps your brain remember how to experience reward and hope and sometimes you have to get through that part of the process where you are moving even though you don't want to and even though your like brain you were supposed to give me an endorphin rush and I barely got through it and to know that exercise has such a profound impact on your brain in the long term that if you can get through that your experience changes you mentioned that genetic susceptibility and that you had all of them when you looked at the data we didn't surprise me I told my parents of that and my mom was like not surprised yeah but what's interesting for me is that you are someone who has had this very passionate relationship with movement sounds like your entire life yeah no I'm interested when that started but also am interested as to now knowing that genetic data do you think back on a reflection that you've figured out at a young age when I move I feel better and when I don't I you know I don't feel good and therefore that has shaped your behaviors for the rest of your life basically yes so I'm sure now if I were growing up now and I was the child I was then somebody would have thought to like send me to therapy but growing up you know I was born in the 70s growing up late 70s 80s kids weren't going to therapy at least not where I live nobody was being prescribed mental health drugs so it was sort of left to me to figure out what to do with a temperament I mean from the time I was out of the womb I was basically scared anxious fearful you know there was nothing to explain it except this is how my brain worked from the time I was born and also I was not an athlete so one thing I've been saying lately which is surprising people who know me now I actually was put in remedial gym class because I was so uncoordinated and slow there were like two of us who were pulled out of our normal class because we could like just couldn't keep up we couldn't like I can't catch a ball it was it was you know humiliating actually at the time and when I was seven or eight you know there was this wave of aerobics and calisthenics and I discovered moving at home because my mom would go to these garage sales and buy workout tapes and never do them she was like oh I'm gonna become an exerciser and she never did but we would have these VHS tapes at home and so I started doing calisthenics and a robux at home and it was a totally different form of movement so nobody was throwing things at me nobody was timing how fast I could go it was me keeping beat with music and other people's bodies and like I fell in love with Jazzercise and it was the first time I didn't feel like my body was this like embarrassing burden that I was dragging around unable to do the things that other kids could do and then over like years you know starting Windows 7 or 8 realizing how much it helped me deal with stress and anxiety I needed to find the movement that I could do too and like we're not all natural-born runners we're not all natural-born athletes but I do believe that there's something and everyone that can be captured tapped into by some form of movement there's quite a few things Kelly I want to pick up on there you mentioned something that's quite humiliating it's a really young age you know I'm trying to imagine you know you're the kid - let's say you're not getting put you're not getting picked for the team because you're always the last one to get picked or you're saying that you and if and somebody else got pulled out class because you're not coordinate enough to continue with the rest of your peers that is that is torture at that age you know to feel and I guess what I'm getting at is it's written between men and women in in this we've we've already mentioned the societal narrative around movement and how you know if you can't do what your peers can do in your you feel humiliating you're not part of that group you you might change your relationship with movement for the rest of your life there is research on this now so the research now is looking at you know people like our age and older many of whom had traumatic experiences in gym class or PE I don't know what it's like in the UK now but in the u.s. actually it's not even required there there are schools now where you don't necessarily have to even take gym or PE so that you're not humiliates it know just because there's not funding so we don't have art and music class everywhere also now but I think there's also there's a big shift right now in trying to create less humiliating and traumatizing experiences because this research shows that if you were picked last if you have a memory of being shamed because of your body or any other reason that you didn't fit in there's lots of reasons that kids have been humiliated in sports or gym classes that it makes you want to avoid movement and exercise for the rest of your life so what based on that if you were to give advice to schools there's a lot of schools had teachers and and teachers who listened to this podcast based upon that research then have you got any advice for them in terms of how they should frame movement and talk about it and manage it at schools good you don't want to you don't want to shape these kids the rest of their life you don't wanna alter their relationship with movement negatively if you can help it I mean it's and there are a lot of people doing this work by the way I should say a lot of people trying to improve that you have that gym class experience one thing is autonomy that people should have choices to identify movements that help them you know reduce stress and feel better and connect with others you know the most positive experiences I ever had in gym class was when we were we were given permission to like just walk around and talk to our friends that was I got more activity doing that than when I was hiding on a field being like cover me like I hope the ball doesn't come to me because I don't know how to play the sport and I don't want to get hurt you know a weightlifting like circuit to be able to do it on your own and and choose what you do and how you do it you know so to give people a sense of autonomy and to allow people to connect and the other positive experience I had for whatever reason one year my last year in high school the gym class instructors decided to allow you to choose into what they called competitive or non-competitive and we were literally put in different rooms they they like put the binders up like to close the rooms and if you if you opted into non-competitive everyone was agreeing we all aren't any good at this and we don't care and we're gonna find a way to make it fun and I realized that I could hit a volleyball for the first time in my life because I wasn't like hiding in the back with the competitive players being like don't let her touch the ball she's gonna drop it and it was such an amazing experience because none of us cared and so we were able to play in a different way so I just think giving people choice letting people opt into are you the athlete who wants to use this time to compete and get better and train or do you want to just like have fun your friends or do you want to be by yourself could you let kids listen to music on their headphones and strength train and have that time for themselves okay have it look more like what adults get to do when they choose their own movement the reason I'm asking about men and women is because there is I can't really exact name I think the BBC in the UK have a movement like this girl can yes and there's an video so I and I think it has that - yeah it's an awareness and again I don't know the exact roots of this so my interpretation of this is that there is a lot of people saying that women but girls as I get older don't particularly you know and this is a gross generalization are maybe too self-conscious to me they're not moving enough and it's it's a movement to try and encourage more girls more women to get moving now Isis I think they're targeting this at women because it seems to be more of an issue at women than guys has any of your research come across anything like that and do you have any views on why that might be so in this you especially see this during adolescence and young adulthood when women experience their bodies being objectified so much for the first time I mean I think of one of my friends daughters who stopped going for a run she loved running and all of a sudden she hit adolescence and she started getting catcalls and she didn't feel safe and she stopped running so I think that part of it is suddenly you realize that everyone has an opinion about your body you go to the gym and people will you know even praise feels can feel quite threatening and unwanted or you'll get negative comments from people and that sense of suddenly your body is an object that everyone is evaluating is I think one of the things that keeps women from participating in all sorts of activities there there definitely is a cultural movement vote for women to embrace their strengths embrace their power embrace their their inner athlete or dancer and to move in any way that feels good and I think that one of these I often will talk to fitness professionals about is how important is to design environments and communities so that if you're walking in for the first time you understand that you are welcomed and celebrated and not immediately objectified by like you know let's take your before picture or you know let's take your measurements or the kind of things that can put people in that mindset of alright my body is an object that's being evaluated as opposed to this is an opportunity to experience my own strength yeah I guess the more we talk and the more I think about what you're saying it's very hard not to shake off this idea that ultimately movement is very personal and we cannot be it's not ideal to be prescribing the same form of movements everyone that ultimately we've all got to figure out that yes it's a fundamental human quality not all the qualities in wrong with it so it's sir it is what it means to be human is it is to move right and therefore if we haven't found that type of movement yet that we love maybe we need to go on that search form that type of movement that we love and trust that it could actually be meaningful I feel like so often people look for the most convenient form of exercise like I think there's a treadmill somewhere in my office building and I'll go and put in my time but like I sometimes ask people like if someone were to send you a video you know on YouTube what's the video of movement that you would actually watch and be inspired by do you want to see people run an obstacle course do you want to see people cross a finish lines you want to watch that choreography video what is it that that lights you up when you see other people do it maybe even there's a voice in your head that says I could never do that like that's the activity to move toward because it can change how you feel about yourself and what you believe is possible for your future and and again to experiment and to listen to your direct feedback and to to follow any thread of joy I often will tell people who come to my classes for the first time like if you have a moment in this class where you were like oh I see what this could be like then this class is for you and come back because any movement form this was so great movement movement is like it's a mastery and growth experience we will pretty much always get better at it and we will always enjoy it more the more we do it you mentioned that people often do the kind of movements that they just have access to so there's a treadmill in the block and it's going put in my time now isn't that an interesting phrase put in my time because what I'm traveling I don't really go to gyms much it's just a I don't really have time and I found ways to move my body that doesn't require me to go to a gym but it's some house I'm in hotels and I will you know if I'm up early I'll go to the hotel gym just to see what's going on and maybe lift some weights do something and it's really interesting you often see people in there who they look as though they're trying to block out the fact that they're moving it looks as though this is a torturous process for me someone's told me or I feel I have to be on this treadmill for an hour so I'm gonna do everything I can to numb that experience whether it's I've read the newspaper watch the news watch Netflix now look I am NOT being critical here I'm just saying what I observe and I guess sometimes we feel we need to block out the movements that like if we feel we have to move but we hate it so we block it out now I'm wondering is there any research to show that there's a difference let's say you're on the treadmill and you're engaged with that and you are feeling you know how your fear you know your limbs are moving and you know how you know what's going on in your brain and you're sort of processing your emotions versus blocking it off completely so you're numbing that experience does that movement do something different from the body in those two different examples yeah so if you are look so there's such a thing as positive dissociation during exercise and for some people it's actually really important so one things we know is that your brain changes when you go from being inactive to active that it changes in ways that makes movement not only easier but more pleasurable so when people first started start to exercise it often is an aversive experience it doesn't stay that way for most people but you maybe you have to go six weeks of doing regular activity for your brain to start to really reward you for it so in that time positive dissociation can be really helpful that's different than like watching the news and getting angry or scrolling through and answering emails that's where something like music can come into play or you know watching something really exciting on Netflix and there's research suggesting that if you can combine movement with something you love that is engaging that it can actually help you stick to to movement have a more positive memory of it but ultimately if you can experience a state of flow and movement that's more rewarding for most people and it can take some time to find that but that requires paying some attention to what you're feeling in your body using it as information to guide your effort enjoying sensations of feedback from your muscles and your joints and your heart that tell you you know I'm alive and I'm doing this and this is how it feels to lift something heavy or to exert myself in this way and and often like that's how you know you found the right workout for you where you can find a flow in it or you don't feel like you need to distract yourself from it yeah and you can find a flow in anything like it can be there's no it's not like you can only find it in some meditate traditionally meditative experience like yoga or Tai Chi people find their flow in all sorts of movement forms there's so much of it that's personality and so much about what your body kind of was built for you I talked to a lot of people who told me they thought they hated exercise until they found and then fill in the blank and maybe it was rowing or swimming like some people need to get in the water and they have a totally different experience of movement in their bodies some people needed to get outdoors and because of the way that nature changes your your brain activity in your mood suddenly they can find a flow walking or jogging outdoors that they could never find on a treadmill and again for me it's music anything can become enjoyable if I have the right playlist we've used the terms movement and exercise a lot in this conversation so far can we use those terms interchangeably or are they actually different things they do mean different things technically I love the word exercise I'm not scared of it so movement is using your body to engage with life it's almost everything right we talked about it me talking right now is technically movement exercise is often defined as moving your body for the purpose of the activity that you're doing I am running because I want to run not because someone is chasing me I am dancing because I want to dance not because someone is paying me to perform on a stage right I'm lifting heavy things because I want to lift heavy things not because I'm moving from one apartment to another and I have to lift heavy things that's what exercise is it's movement that you were choosing to do for its own sake because of its meaning its pleasure or its you know benefits to you so I think too many people define exercise as forcing yourself to do movement you don't want to do yeah and like that's not what it is yeah by that definition exercise is not a helpful term but by your definition it can be very helpful to do different forms of movement do different things and what I mean by that is we've got in the common vernacular there a term the runner's high why it's so I know you've written about this I would love to expand a bit on what that runner's high is and why everyone might not feel it but also you know I do like someone but I also sometimes like to lift heavy weights and I know if I have done a heavy deadlift and as I'm walking out of the gym like oh you feel strong you feel powerful you feel like you you feel like a different person walking out than the person you felt like walking in so what is going on there what is changing in your body what is the runner's high what are these you know endorphins that everyone talks about because as I read your book kelly i more and more feel that reducing movement down to simply being about an endorphin high is far too simplistic so one thing so different forms of movement can affect your mood in two different ways you will get different changes in your brain chemistry based on what you're doing and also every movement form has its own qualities so you talked about feeling strong or powerful or confident and every movement form will bring something else out in you and so part of how movement makes you feel is what it is that it asks you to express are you expressing you are determination your playfulness and creativity your ability to cooperate with others but the other part is is actually different movement forms will lead to different changes in what's happening in your brain so you mentioned the runner's high I call it a persistence high because it's a common effect in your brain when you get your heart rate up a little bit and you're using your muscles to to use energy for about 20 minutes at a moderate intensity and it really is about continuous movement rather than about running specifically it's just that running because it's so continuous jogging actually is even a better way to get a runner's high than running it basically tells your brain we're doing this and so I need to pay off to help me continue doing it and you can get this basic high from anything that puts your body in motion and you're willing to commit to it for about 20 minutes and it's driven it seems to be driven not mostly by endorphins to get a true endorphin rush from movement you typically need to add one of three things more intensity other people or music and if you add those you can get an endorphin rush from pretty much any type of movement but the classic runner's high is fueled by endocannabinoids which as a brain chemical is different than endorphins in a way that I think is really interesting so we know that endorphins tend to basically block pain and create euphoria which is why by the way with the right playlist or when you're moving with other people that that can really make you feel euphoric because that will really give you an endorphin rush or pushing yourself to like to you know fatigue but endocannabinoids what they do is whatever's going on in your brain that we would think of as unpleasant it starts to dampen it down so endocannabinoids are basically they modulate other systems of the brain so if you've got pain physical pain if you've got stress anxiety anger higher levels of endocannabinoids are basically going to calm those things down in your brain and endocannabinoids also facilitate anything that is pleasurable so anything good that's happening it's going to amp amp up and one of the things that it particularly seems to amp up is the pleasures of social connection so when endocannabinoid levels are higher everything that's pleasurable is more pleasurable but like your story is more interesting your jokes are funnier if you give me a high five it's gonna feel more satisfying or if you give me a hug it's gonna feel better or if I'm able to help you I'm gonna get more of that helpers high that warm glow and I think that's really interesting because all right so endorphins make you feel really good it's it's like a high but the runner's high is more about sort of putting you into a brain state that allows you to be a good version of yourself in community and there's a lot of like anthropological speculation about why that would be but the idea is basically human beings we are adapted to be physically active and cooperating communities and as soon as you are moving your body and getting your heart rate up your brain is like alright we're hunting we're foraging we're gathering and then we need to bring it back to our tribe and we need to share with one another and we need to feel good about the fact that I just you know spent two hours out in the field gathering food and now I'm giving it away to other people so that they can eat and that's what the runner's high is it's a brain state that allows you to sustain optimism and effort and that makes you enjoy connecting with other people even more and this is why exercise is like the best reset you can do for yourself because just imagine like every time you exercise you're becoming that version of yourself I mean I'm blown away list since this Kelly it is it's it's putting a lot of the pieces together that people kind of intuitively feel but you're giving some of those mechanisms and some of the science behind why they feel the way that they feel you know I love looking at things through an evolutionary lens and it makes sense when you look at it why would why would it why would it cause these things in the body yeah it would bring a scale it would help us with our tribe with our community but one of my favorite bits in the book is when you talk about perhaps a tribe and what goes on and then how much they move per day and and also how their elderly tend to move they tend to move more as they get older I think I read yeah it's you continue to be an active part of your community as one of the last hunter-gatherer societies and I think the you know the research is that they are moderately to vigorously active for a couple hours a day that's like that higher intensity activity and then another couple of hours of sort of lighter to moderate activity like walking around and you know the evolutionary idea is that that this is how humans survived we were willing to exert ourselves because the climate changed and humans had to do that in order to feed themselves and we were willing to cooperate and share and you know one of the themes of the research as I experienced it and in talking to people is that you really they are so connected the rewards that we get from playing an active role in our lives literally active being engaged exerting ourselves pursuing meaningful goals and the rewards that we get from connecting with other people and being part of a community they are so connected that it's one of the reasons why people who are physically active are less lonely they have better relationships with other people there's something about being sedentary that makes it more difficult to be that version of ourselves that thrives in community and and I don't mean I that sounds I don't want to shame anyone who doesn't exercise or feels like they can't for physical or mental health reasons and yet at the same time I feel like it's really important to express this message that to whatever degree you can move your body it makes you a different version of yourself that is it's not even just better for other people it allows you to experience that core human joy of interdependence yeah we Kelly we've both written books on stress and we know very well that exercise helps make us more resilient to stress and you know one of the things I loved reading about in the book was how those areas of the brain that help us manage stress the prefrontal cortex the amygdala have got relatively high concentrations for endocannabinoids yes and oxytocin which is something else that can get released from exercise yeah okay so how exercise helps us with stress it is both on the short-term so if you're feeling stressed out you're feeling anxious or angry it's going to change your brain chemistry in a way that gives you more hope and more energy that's like that's the common denominator that's the feel better effect but also we know that people who are regularly active it actually changes the structure and the function of their brains in ways that that basically teaches the brain how to be resilient to stress and also more sensitive to joy so you're gonna have an increased availability of dopamine and endocannabinoid and endorphin receptors your brain is basically gonna say oh I guess we can experience joy meaning in life and hope and optimism so let's just be ready for it in a way that increases people's mood and enjoy in a much more generalized way but the one thing I wanted to make sure we talk about I mentioned it once my oak ions which i think is the most exciting area of research in terms of how exercise affects stress resilience and mental health is this new observation and forgive me I don't know if you've talked about this on your podcast yet have you no I haven't okay great the one who gives the good news so just in the last decade or so biologists have realized that our muscles are basically an endocrine organ and just like your pituitary gland your adrenal glands they can synthesize and pump out proteins and peptides into your bloodstream that affect every system of your body so your muscles manufacture these proteins and peptides and the they basically release them into your bloodstream when you contract your muscles in a regular and continuous way so any form of exercise any form of movement and some of these these proteins and these chemicals so they're called my oak ions which just means set into motion by your muscles some of them kill cancer cells some of them reduce inflammation some of them are good for your immune function they're good for your cardiovascular health some of them help you regulate blood sugar so a lot of scientists now think Myo kinds are the reason that exercise is good for your health and prevents every kind of disease it reduces your risk I mean we're all gonna get something but reduces your risk but when I'm so fascinated by as a psychologist is some of these miok ions have their strongest effects on your brain so let's say you go for a walk or you're lifting weights and your muscles are pumping these chemicals out into your bloodstream that can cross your blood-brain barrier and in your brain their primary effect is to act as an antidepressant and to change the structure of your brain in ways that make you more resilient to stress weather you know that's changes to your hippocampus or your prefrontal cortex and some of the first researchers who wrote about this called them hope molecules because they're like huh but well in parts were these horrible studies that I don't particularly endorse where you traumatize rodents and then you either have them exercise or you literally inject them with some of these Myo kinds and what you find is they don't become traumatized and depressed psychologically in the way that they normally would if you traumatize them and so they're like huh it's like your muscles are manufacturing hope molecules when you exercise and this to me is like the miracle of the human form the idea that I got the idea that your muscles can manufacture antidepressants and they will deliver them to your brain when you exercise and it's all of your muscles so if you can't use your legs you can use your arms if you can't use your arms maybe you can brace your core if you can move any muscles your muscles will release these chemicals that support your health and support your brain resilience and you it's something that you can choose even if you don't have access to other forms of mental health care it's it's it's miraculous and that your muscles know how to do it yeah I mean it's incredible I I tell you what pops into my head I was thinking about elderly people who maybe are immobile and I sat down for a lot of the den maybe have lost that balance I'm thinking well maybe they can have a couple of light dumbbells next to their chair yeah maybe their legs not working but maybe if every day they at some point you know for 5-10 minutes just rock out a few bicep curls you could meet Willy Sinclair's Maya Collins you can we get those hope molecules you're gonna be having all these changes to your mood your physiology your inflammation and the literal structure of your brain I mean you literally are building a different brain yes to really try think about making this accessible to everyone even people who maybe are sedentary might be able to do something like that to get some of these benefits and I think that's incredibly empowering for people and that so you know I've been really curious about this because a lot of the early research was looking at higher intensity exercise and an athletes and there does seem to be a bit of a dose-response relationship where anything you do is going to release these positive Myo kinds any form of movement when you go from zero to anything this is this is why I think we know that people who like you know move for 10 minutes a day have reduced risk of mortality it's everything counts and also the more you do the longer you do it and the harder it is the the more your muscles release my oak ions and I think this explains why a lot of people who are recovering from addiction recovering from depression recovering from grief recovering from stroke because of how it enhances your brains ability to recover many people find that actually intensity is like upping your dose of a medicine that's really good for you and I feel like it's important to point both of those out because I can't I can't tell you how many people I spoke to needed to find for themselves a certain level of intensity those almost like a switch was flipped in their their psychological well-being and so this is that you know in the great tradition of improv its yes and yes do anything and it will help you and also the to the degree that you are choosing to push to the level of intensity that challenges you you can really have dramatic changes in your mental health and your brain health yeah incredible really really incredible cuz I know you you do have to get a flight shortly we have a bit of time and there's no way I could have a conversation with you and not talking about compassion oh yes so I know you've done a lot of research in this area you studied it for awhile and compassion and you know kindness in general is something I think a lot about I think about what is needed more today than ever in the world is kindness I feel we're missing it will lack in it social media seems to allow people it seems to give people free rein to sort of be slightly anonymous and behave in a way that we would never behave with people face to face and as you know I try and promote compassion and think that it's one of the most important things that we can if we want to be the change that is out there in the world we need to start being compassionate in all of our interactions and I'm wondering how exercise plays into compassion because we're a sedentary world now we sit down all day we sit down on transport we don't need to move to get off food we can order food on our phones now you know the way we're living as human beings has changed fundamentally and if being sedentary can make us depressed and anxious well can being sedentary also make us lacking in compassion and make us angry and make us want to attack people and maybe movement increasing our movement is gonna help us be a bit more compassionate to ourselves but to the world around us I mean it definitely can for reasons both biochemical and psychological and social you know so there are a lot of barriers - compassion first of all as being the recipient of compassion and and social safety so you know when we talk about the world becoming less compassionate it's not because there's something like deeply broken about individuals we know that human beings have competing instincts we have tremendous courage and willingness to be kind and to help others and also we have very strong instincts to protect ourselves to be wary of strangers to avoid suffering and conflict and so what compassion often requires of us is to feel safe to feel cared for and to feel brave and so one of the ways that exercise can help us access our compassion and kindness is to give us experiences of our own strength and courage you know so for example one of my longtime meditation teachers focuses on compassion meditation and I was so surprised to find out that she does kickboxing though you would think that's really strange she's a Zen meditation teacher and she does kickboxing but she often talks about you know compassion is about active engagement with things that are difficult so what better way to tap into your own compassion instinct than to feel fierce and brave and strong and powerful and know how to use energy so sometimes exercise allows us to deepen our compassion just by allowing ourselves to trust ourselves to be able to channel and harness energy and also to feel more connected to others to the degree that movement gives you a community of belonging that movement changes your brain chemistry in ways that literally makes eye contact feel safer exercise can make it feel easier to receive the help and kindness of others you know I talked to a lot of people in this book who found through movement the first place where it felt safe to acknowledge your own vulnerabilities and receive the help of others and when you can experience what it's like to receive the kindness of others it also makes you more willing to extend that to others so it's very complicated in ways that I think are almost always and we started this conversation talking about an upward spiral I think that if you set in tension if you say that my movement practice is part of how I want to cultivate deeper self compassion and compassion I'm not sure it will always do it but if you have that as one of your intentions there are so many ways that that that movement can support your desire to be a more compassionate force in the world yeah Kelly I love it I wish we had another two hours to keep talking because you know there is just so much to tap into here I think you've written a wonderful book I really do I think you know I hope everyone listen to this guy's I don't buys the book I think it's brilliant I think if you are someone who loves to move I think it's gonna show you why it's gonna make you wonder what's lyrical about it and tell more people but I actually also believe that if you are someone who struggles with movements I actually do believe that by reading this book it's gonna help I think inspire someone it's okay hey you know what maybe I've been looking at this all wrong maybe actually I'm just gonna start by putting on one of my favorite tunes and seeing how I want to move in the comfort of my own room with nobody watching and it's gonna get moving and see what kind of ripple effect what kind of upward spiral might be able to start and that individual I want to thank you for that Kelly I want to thank you for making time to come see me today Kelly this podcast is called feel better live more right so when we feel better in ourselves we get more out of our lives and you've very beautifully made the case that when we move more we're gonna get more out of our lives we've covered lots of different things today but I always love to live I always love to lead the listener with some really practical tips things that they can think about applying in their own life immediately not next week not next month but immediately to start transforming the way that they feel so there are a lot of different kinds of people listen to this podcast but I wonder have you got some pearls of wisdom to finish off this conversation yes so if you are thinking about adding movement into your life one thing I like people to think about is that it is a reset it's an immediate reset for your mood and your brain chemistry and so to think about when in your life you want to flip that switch and get a reset and like set an appointment for yourself to move from me because of my temperament like I wake up and just I don't wake up like you know bird singing I wake up I'm like oh bleep I have to get up and do this again so for me I exercise first thing in the morning even though I don't want to because I know that that's a reset for me and I really encourage people to think if you know that exercise is a reset it's gonna make you the best version of yourself to start to think about putting any dose of movement into that maybe it's the transition from from work to home so you know I spoke with a a police officer who trains other officers and they actually do their most important exercise in the transition between serving and going home because they want to leave behind some of the the vigilance and intensity that they need on the job to go home to be with their family in a different way so it's most important for them to exercise in that transition so that they can go home and and be more open in a way that they want to be with their family and it for me it's in the morning so that's one thing I would think about absolutely create a playlist to move to unless you are like one of the 10% of people who just aren't that moved by music but most people are and to put together a playlist that inspires you to move and the other thing I would say is so many people get an immediate benefit from moving outdoors if you are somebody who thinks you don't like to exercise if there's any natural environment where you feel safe in and it doesn't have to be the wilderness it could be anything green space for me my favorite places outdoors are actually waterfront in urban areas where I can see a skyline and the blue sky and some you know ducks in the river or something to spend time outdoors it will often be the most powerful way for people to immediately connect to the psychological benefits of movement yeah I love it Kelly thank you so so much your favorite transom of tea oh my gosh there are too many does she's one right now I am loving move your body by sea is one of my theme songs and higher love the Whitney Houston I love it well what a great place to finish Kelly if people want to stay in touch with you on social media t do social media and it's so where should they find you I'm on Instagram and Spotify I put all my my playlists for my classes and there were some playlists inspired by the book so i'm kelly marie McGonagall on both Instagram and Spotify and on Twitter and Facebook Kelly McGonigal fantastic and for people listening for people watching on YouTube we will link to all of those links the Spotify playlist which I can't wait to find myself they actually asked on social media the song you most want to move to and I have an amazing playlist from people all over the world all ages the songs they most want to move to so if you're looking for inspiration that's a great great playlist to go to a fantastic I'm gonna do that and actually when this podcast comes out maybe that's something we'll do on social media for that week is actually ask people what is their song too me too so that's a that's a nice idea to bring people together and start sharing their experiences Kelly safe journey back thank you so much it's a brilliant book and I really hope we have the opportunity to have another conversation on this podcast at some point of the future I want to come to the UK press subscribe to get more inspiration and ideas on how to feel better so you can get more out of life and if you have a moment why not check out this conversation that I've picked out as a perfect follower remember lifestyle change is always worth it because when you feel better you've lived more

Channel: Dr Rangan Chatterjee

Views: 46,791

Keywords: The Four Pillar Plan, NHS, GP, Four Pillar Plan, lifestyle medicine, the stress solution, feel better in 5, feel better live more, fblm, health, paleo, wellness, drchatterjee, rangan chatterjee, how to make disease disappear, low carb, vegan, keto, podcast, apple podcast, obesity, type 2 diabetes, joe rogan, sleep, jay shetty, health advice, richroll, therichrollpodcast, coronavirus, kelly mcgonigal, movement, exercise, active, psychologist, antidepressant, community, depression, brain, music

Id: 5xUUyZIwl7w

Length: 97min 6sec (5826 seconds)

Published: Tue Apr 21 2020