Stages of Grieving - Elisabeth Kubler Ross

with theory and practice and of course the debtor model of Elizabeth Cooper Ross how does that present that theory in our practice rooms well I think before I before I go on to to analyze that I think I'd like to say one of the most enduring pieces of theory that that is around not only the counseling profession but also the helping professions in general I think that anybody who's a helper be they a therapist a support worker anybody who helps people in any way has probably come across the work of Elizabeth Kubler-Ross as Swiss American uh psychiatrist who has a really interesting backstory she was a she was a cleaner and then she met someone who helped to become a psychiatrist which I think is a fantastic story and she she developed through her observations of people who were dying in the process of dying people of terminal illnesses how they reacted and one of the very interesting things about this is she didn't actually research them and stuff they would they weren't research participants she it was more observational and more she would talk to them and she she saw some patterns of behavior and she she coalists the grieving process and she wrote a book in 1969 called on death and dying and from that book we get the acronym dabda and it said that people go through a in terms of loss um a a kind of pattern of experiencing and that is is denial so dabner is denial anger bargaining and depression and the the model would suggest on face value that people go through this in in an older people first of all deny there's anything wrong and then once that that that's kind of resolved and they realize there is something wrong they become angry about it and then they're bargaining this third stage is all about you know if I do this if I do that will things change and then depression you know the realization that you know life is is ending and then eventually acceptance and I think sometimes this model gets a bit misrepresented Ken because it's always presented in a linear format in other words it starts with denial and finishes with acceptance the truth of the matter is is that many many people who experience grief may have those um presenting issues you know denial anger bargaining depression acceptance um in different orders are all together I'll miss some of them out um but it is a very useful um kind of kind of theory to to gain an understanding of how people may react to something as you know as as tragic as as terminal illness yeah a good good topic that you've brought and I love this little piece of theory Rory and what's interesting and of course this was this was um written in regards to that terminal illness but it is so adaptable to the grieving process as a whole so it can be the loss of somebody else it can be the loss of a pet that's the thing we can see that even the loss of of of something like a car you know we might see this process playing out so there's something very human about the different stages that were identified here that we do go through and I think really smart pointing out Rory is that you're not sat there with this number line way saying right so they're in denial now so next time I see them then we're going to see the anger then we're going to go into the old bargaining stage it can it can as you say you can you can have two or more of them at the same time in a way or miss things out and and they don't necessarily run in an order but they are or something to kind of Peg where somebody might be at and to understand it from a human perspective and I'm going to start with that first the denial and I'm gonna go I'm gonna use a car a car this the a well-loved car that is parked downstairs and then you get up the next morning and you go downstairs and you look and the car's gone Rory oh gosh First Step the first the denial is where did I park it it can't be gone I know I locked it I know I locked it so it can't be gone has somebody else used it as somebody to have did a pocket in a different place am I remembering correctly hearing this this I can't believe it element to it um within that that that moment then the person might go on to the bargaining and go well I can now truly see it's gone because I can see some broken glass where my parking spot was now I wonder had it if I'd have only bought that steering lock my wife was on at me for how many years to get that steering lock oh I should have put that alarm in if I'd have put that alarm in that wouldn't have happened and that's into the bargaining stage and that is retrospective bargaining where you're going into the past saying if I'd have done things differently then maybe this wouldn't have happened right now and and then of course the depression my car's gone what am I gonna do uh I can't live without my car I don't know how I'm gonna get around but of course life goes on and we live on and we make our way through that and then the acceptance that one day you sat in a pub Rory telling somebody the story about the day that your car got stolen and you've maybe removed from the the the the spikiness of the emotions that you felt within that moment I've taken a very glib example uh not related to to people and and rather put on a car but that's kind of maybe an overview of that adapter model playing out yeah absolutely can and I think I think you found an interesting point now one of the reasons W is presented in the way it is in a linear form is it's because it's it's probably the easiest um theory of loss that can be taught to a wide range of professionals but if you if you drill down into the work of Kubler awesome but only in mind um you know she was a she was a proper researcher the person who wrote the forward to a book was Colin Murray Parks who was a you know who is a huge influence in studies of loss and grief so you know this wasn't just a very short book that said dabda and then at the end had some references in there was quite there was there was a lot to it and also I think it's worth pointing out that her her um observations were for people who were dying so sometimes that model doesn't transpose to people people who have lost um I think I think I think that's that's something that needs to be said and it has been adapted through the through the years Through The Years her work has been adapted and modified rather like Muslims hierarchy of needs it's been adapted and in fact if you go to um our mother website counseling tutor.com look for podcast episode 249 we'll put a link to um Elizabeth kubelosi's the late Elizabeth's websites and you can see how it's been adapted but it remains can an enduring theory of how to work with grief and loss and I think I think it's one that can be taught quite quickly for those people who've never encountered how to work with clients just to have that little acronym in the back of your mind I think he's really helpful yeah and for me there's also a normalizing element in in these stages and I'm gonna go back to what I was saying how if there's anything that stands out in these stages is how human they are and how how these kind of feelings or emotions show themselves in in different stages of our lives and sometimes and when I speak about normalizing sometimes you may be working with a client who has lost somebody very dear to themselves it could be a partner or somebody really close and they lose that person and they might come into therapy and they might be quite angry that that person is no longer around now they love that person dearly they're experiencing such grief at the loss of that person but within them there's also this how can how can he leave me now how could he go now how can and that for that client presenting this is what this is about how does that theory represent itself in practice it can be hard for them it can be unacceptable to them how can I feel this anger towards this person that I've just lost and that I loved so much and there's we we can go to the normalizing where we can explain that this is natural this is a natural experience to be having when when faced with with a loss like this and it can normalize that and maybe give that person a little bit of resolve that it's okay to feel that anger in intermingled in with all of that grief and sadness absolutely Ken and I think that you know we talk about psychological education a lot and people people see that in terms in the frame of trauma which of course you know grief is a a form of trauma but I I think sometimes just to maybe step out of the person-centered pantheon of non-directiness and just share that information I've always been a great believer in information that is going to be helpful to the client we should share you know as long as as long as there's no agenda to it and you know many times I've shared that in practice and said you know and sometimes you do you write like you can't clients will say why do I feel this way so why why do I hate this person so much for for leaving me and and that that brings up anxiety and and fear and um shame and all those emotions that are attached to it and just simply just saying well look you know this is a this is a process that humans go through it's been known for a long long time and you know not to put two final points on it look you're not going crazy this is just a natural progression of grief um and that can be just so helpful you're just disabusing them of the of the the pressure they're putting themselves on and you know if that's not our work I don't know what it can oh yeah well said Rory here here I say um another area of this this um model I guess that is interesting to me is the bargaining stage that if I hadn't if I had if I didn't do that if it had gone like this if I only listened to if I'd have read that if we'd have taken these or whatever that bargaining may be and we may we may recognize that a client can get stuck there even many years after the loss that it's a sticky place the bargaining uh it's almost a uh uh there can be an accepting of if I had acted differently than than this may have played out very very differently and that I think is is a when we recognize that a client may be in that bargaining phase and being in that bargaining phase for some time I think there's the the patience element of being with them yeah and within the bargaining there is an incongruence and and the congruence for me I'm speaking specifically about loss now so I'll speak about the loss of the car if I hadn't parked it over there if I had bought that alarm system if I'd have put a steering lock on then this wouldn't have happened but the truth of the matter is it did happen so there is an incongruence in looking back to it may not have happened and maybe in a person-centered way you can you can point to the incongruence when the time is right when the relationship is built up but right saying I recognize that you you really feel that if you'd have done those things in the past differently then maybe it would have played out differently but of course you now find yourself here and pointing again to how it really is what it's like right now bringing them into the here and now but recognizing the the emotions of the there and then the bargaining if I had if I hadn't if we had whatever that may be that's a sticky place to be and I think patience there Rory is uh just patience and understanding care and empathy uh I I totally agree and and also you know don't be surprised if if this kind of presentation of grief comes up many many many many many years after someone has died um because it can be it can be kind of uh cyclic that's the word I'm looking for it could be cyclic so things like on anniversaries things like on birthdays you know um you know at Christmas Christmas holidays as we call them now all those all those things can trigger that kind of cycle and it can it can it can trigger individual bits of the dub disciple so you might get a client you're working with and all of a suddenly come in just incredibly angry one day and you know you you know you say I noticed that you seem really angry and it might be that you know that's the that is the symptom if you like of the fact that there's a special day it could be a birthday it could be holiday that person isn't there um they're just very angry about it that they've they've they've left them and you know and in fact I think you back through practice Ken I can I can think of you know a number of occasions where I work with clients and they're angry the person actually died yeah they're angry the person actually does and it's real anger and you know as Ken is often said and I love Candace race all feelings are welcome in therapy room all feelings should be engaged with um you know maybe you have to engage with that it feels a little bit counterintuitive that you are angry at someone dying but actually that's the process part of the process of Letting Go and for some people it can be a lifelong Endeavor some people kind of move on and they move away other people may very well just have this cyclic um re-revisiting of the of the difficulties and the pain of loss and Others May you know quite frankly not Escape it at all it might be a permanent position for them yeah yeah you can definitely get stuck there and I I think to Circle right back to where we began with this before we give you the special secret link to go and get Rory super duper handout on the dabda model then you can have it in in your hand and you can look over that yourself and and that is that this is not linear and that it can go forward and backwards so you can have an example where a client will be will have acceptance that the person is gone and I I'm speaking from my own personal uh Journey here looking back over uh the Christmas period I lost my dad uh over that time and every time we come to that time of year um I I maybe feel myself getting slightly depressed revisiting that depression uh stage of things even though I have the acceptance and I've had the acceptance now for decades but I still go back there at this time of year and you you mentioned it there Rory the little triggers that might be there it might be a birthday it might be an anniversary might be a festive holiday where you might think back on that person and you can very much move from acceptance to an another stage uh it's it's a good model it's a it's worth having it's not the be-all and end all and I wouldn't suggest if you are working with grief that this is your only model that you would work with I would expand your your horizons on there but it's certainly worth having as you said Rory is simple to understand simple to teach somebody else the dabda model Elizabeth Cooper Ross where can you get it go to counseling tutor.com that's on my website click on the podcast tab because that's what you're listening to find episode 249 right there on that page you can download Rory's super duper handout it's right there for you and there it is that is today's theory in practice big thank you to Alan a big thank you to you Rory for reaching out and and holding that really interesting uh interview it's uh uh I I'd like to read the book I haven't read the book I would like to read the book I'll certainly be looking at the show notes page counseling tutor.com uh podcast tab episode 249 to have a look for the link to the book uh that is uh Alan frat on the topic of waking dreams and I do believe Rory this is there's a bit of a rumor here I'm gonna have to go for you for confirmation on this rumor that Alan may be in the pipeline for making a lecture for the counselor CPD Library so that's worth looking out for absolutely absolutely we um we were so impressed with what what he had to say that we invited him to to do a lecture and he's going to be scheduled in as one of our lecturers and I I really I've been having started to read the book yeah I don't think this is a lecture to be missed once we once we produce it here nice one and if you're not a member of the cancellous CPD Library it's so easy to join you just go to counseling tutor.com and the information is right there on the screen an annual membership to the councilor CPD Library will cost you less than the price of one cup of coffee per month out with a friend so it really is worth it it's absolutely jam-packed full of quality CPD all with learning objectives all certified uh so go and check that out counselingtutor.com this has been episode 249 the counseling tutor podcast yes we started with theory and practice stages of grieving we looked at the work on Elizabeth Cooper was an enduring piece of theory that um that has helped so many and we looked at in a little bit more detail and hope that is of help to you if you ever need to use that theory with your clients practice today is a new section we're looking at contemporary issues in counseling and Canon myself talks about using translators in the therapy room something that is really is a contemporary issue in the society that we find ourselves in and then finally in practice matters I caught up with Alan frat who talks about waking dreams in Psychotherapy an interesting Direction taken in in a in a new idea of how people interact with the world and as always stay grounded and stay safe

Channel: CounsellingTutor

Views: 8,460

Keywords: stages of grief, on death and dying, DABDA, kubler ross stages of grief, kubler ross, counselling grief and loss, bereavement, bereavement counselling, 5 stages of grief Kübler-Ross, Counselling Tutor Podcast, rory lees oakes counselling, on death and dying 1969, stages of grieving death

Id: lqkOc51-Jiw

Length: 50min 40sec (3040 seconds)

Published: Sat Jan 14 2023