Spacetime is just a headset: An interview with Donald Hoffman

[Music] foreign just our headset but we lose ourselves in the game  and we lose we take the game as as the reality for ascencia foundation I had the honor of sitting  down with one of my absolute intellectual Heroes   cognitive psychologist Donald Hoffman to discuss  the nature of reality before I share our full   conversation here are some of the highlights I'll  say this there is no physical theory that has at   any time proposed a specific [Music] conscious  experience that they can explain there's not   one on the table the distinction that we make  between conscious and unconscious and between   living and non-living is not a principle of  Distinction it's a mistake it's it's it's a   rookie mistake that that we make by mistaking  our space-time headset for the final truth but if you were unable to wake  from that dream how would you   know the difference between the  dream world and the real world were you happy with the movie The Matrix what  it did sort of culturally with that metaphor   The Matrix really does open  people's minds up to the possibility   that what they're experiencing is just a  simulation right now in in The Matrix though   once you pop out of the simulation this is another  space-time world so when Neo takes off the headset   um he's back into space-time  world welcome to the real world so it's Trinity and everybody they're all they're  all in the space-time world so so this what I'm   saying is even more radical that that whatever  is beyond space-time is utterly unlike space and   time but this is this is like fundamental stuff  right this is the real cool stuff we are still   thinking of traveling in space-time and we have  all these space-time fantasies right and most of   the galaxies that we can see we could never go to  space is expanding so quickly that we could never   get to them through space moving at the speed  of light so there's all this real estate out   there that we can see that's waving at us and  saying nanny nanny you can never get here well   that's if you go through space-time  but if space-time was just a headset   think about the options that come you  don't have to go through space-time you   could go around space-time when we let go of the  physicalist framework we say no I am consciousness   I transcend this death is just stepping out of  this headset in other words we're wired up to take   the headset seriously and so Consciousness sort  of wired itself up to take the headset seriously   but part of the waking up process is to step back  and go oh wow okay oh no no I'm not a little thing   inside the headset the headset is inside of me I  I'm eventually going to take the headset off so   I could have a looser relationship with all this  stuff I don't need to get that big house to to be   something I don't need to have that big scientific  paper I don't need to be acknowledged has it done   this for you Donald has it done this for you what  you're now saying yeah sort of this realization   in your personal life it it's interesting  it it does it for me when I am conscious okay great Donald I'm really really happy that we  can do this so um nice to have you on the other   side sitting here thank you very much Hanson  it's very kind of you to invite me uh yeah we   just spoke about your background I thought if it's  okay with you to start a bit sort of on a personal   note personal note um could you tell a little  bit about your background and your upbringing   well I was born in an Army hospital  in San Antonio Texas my dad was a GI   he was just trying to find himself  so he went into the army newlywed   and I was born nine months later so  they they were both just like 21. and uh   trying to figure things out and they they were  having a hard time making ends meet they didn't   have enough money to eat at the end of the month  so it was quite quite something but six months   after I was born they moved to California so I I  basically was was raised in Southern California   all of my life and he was he was an engineer and  my mom was she had a bachelor's in biology and   uh she ended up doing some computer programming  when I was about 10 years old she was one of the   early programmers and sort of got me interested in  computers my dad was an engineer uh his he had a   Masters in chemistry and worked at various  high-tech companies that were at the early   stages of building like storage devices for  computers and so forth um and then he uh he   became a Christian when I was 10 or 11 years  old and that changed things quite a bit they   um my parents both jumped into it pretty heavily  and um by the time I was in my mid to late teens   he was an associate pastor at at a church and  went on for for decades afterwards to be a   pastor so it was really from about age 10 and on  really raised pretty heavily in a fundamentalist   um Christian Protestant kind of background so and  that so it was pretty intense and and of course   you well in my case I was the oldest I didn't  rebel I I went along it took me a long time to get   a perspective to be able to step back and start  to get a perspective on it my younger brother um   rebelled earlier and my sister has never rebelled  to this day and did you ever personally believe   um did you have the faith as well as a teenager  well yeah I believed in believed in God and   um and you know my my thoughts about that have  have changed over the years with what that word   actually means but there is a sense in which I  still think that Consciousness is fundamental   um and you know the the grandfather in the chair  with a long white beard is not what I think of   when I think of Consciousness um so so you know  the my so I had a it had a big influence on me   um both positive and negative I mean it really  made me think about things beyond space and time   but I think it made me think about them in in  not very functional ways and and so I had to   step back and and really sort out what what  were I mean there are beautiful things when   Jesus says love your neighbor as yourself  that's I mean that's that's there's many   many beautiful things but it's a mixed  bag and so we each have to to sort out   um that mixed bag and and take what is is really  good and and um and try to be kind to everybody   in the process but I think it's so great that  your work offers is in a sense I think a refuge   I mean that that it is to me uh alongside with  uh people like Bernardo and and more people who   think Consciousness might be fundamental so that  I think that's really great that you're offering   that intellectually through science to people and  a question I had has to do with um the uh I hear   you say a lot of the interviews that you want to  make things mathematically rigorous right and I am   not a not a mathematician my understanding of math  does not sort of extend beyond the high school and what exactly if you had to Define that's maybe too  weird or broad question but what is math exactly   is it sort of a symbolic representation of reality  I mean that's what I now think but how would you   define mathematics so mathematics is a way of  getting rid of fuzzy thinking and hand waving and   and therefore the dogmatism that can come with it  because I know what's right because and if you try   to come at me with some argument then I'll just  sort of change my view enough so that so if but   if I put it down an equation then uh it's hard for  me to dodge and weave it's not impossible but it   makes it much much harder to to dodge and weave so  so mathematics um is infinitely complicated this   is a girdle Kirk girdle in 1930 1931 when he was  a young man like 25 years old proved perhaps one   of the the greatest intellectual achievements  in all of human history it was called girdle's   incompleteness theorem and without going into  the details it entails that there's no end to   the exploration of mathematical structure there in  some sense it seems to me that it entails that you   can't be omniscient about mathematics because it  just really it won't put it this way the kind of   omniscience involved would be stunning omniscience  uh it would have to I would have to it's beyond my   conception of the kind of omniscience that would  be needed to have a full comprehension of the math   certainly any finite formal system  is Colonel girdle shows us merely a   scratch on the surface of this infinite  depth of mathematics um and and so that   that means that math is a two-edged sword here on  the one hand it cuts through our dogmatism and our   fuzzy thinking and so it's absolutely essential  because one thing we know about human nature is   that you know we uh we're dogmatic we we know what  we know and we know that the other guy's wrong and   and uh we're not in conversations typically to to  learn we're in conversations to show other people   that we're right and they're wrong um with  with happy exceptions but with mathematics   um when you're forced to State your ideas with  mathematical precision there's no hiding right   and when I say for example that I think the  Consciousness is fundamental and then I say and   here's what I claim the structure of Consciousness  is and so I have to write I write down some math   now now I get the other so that's the first  title sword and it's wonderful right it really   cuts through dogmatism and fuzzy thinking and and  dodging and weaving on the other hand girdle has   told us that essentially there's Infinite Wisdom  Beyond any formal theory that you could write down   Yeah by proven by math itself that's so  astonishing proven by mathematics that's   that's really truly stunning that  that the mathematics itself gives us the Insight that no mathematics that we  could do is ever the whole truth and in fact   that there's essentially unbounded intelligence  of mathematics beyond what you could do with   what so and and who knows I mean if  mathematics isn't the whole world so   but that's just part of it certainly part of the  of reality and so already we know that reality   um transcends any mathematical Theory so that  that also entails that there can be no scientific   theory of everything and yeah yeah it makes  us humble right girdle girdle made us humble   it's it's it's very very humbling and so what we  have then so someone might say well just throw up   your hands you know let's just party and and  you know we can't can't know it all then why   know anything and I think that that's the wrong  attitude it's not my attitude anyway it it is   um we do have this wonderful tool  and we do find that it is incredibly   um effective Eugene wigner said at the  unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics   in in the Natural Sciences he was amazed at  it a lot of us agree it's truly stunning that   using Newton and Newton's equations we can send  Rockets to planets and it works quite well and   with Einstein's equations we get even uh you know  greater Fidelity and with quantum theory you know   uh we'll Maxwell's equations in quantum theory  we're talking uh literally on opposite sides   of the world using technology that would not be  possible without the mathematics absolutely not   um and and so so the mathematics is at once  empowering and it avoids dogmatism and it really   then is humbling once once you really understand  it is truly humbling and and so and I think for me   it then is a pointer to a way of thinking about  what is consciousness about if Consciousness is   all there is then mathematical structure is only  about Consciousness because that's all that's that   they're deferred to be about so so then girdle is  telling us that there's no end to the variety of   conscious experiences and conscious activity  whatever Consciousness is is literally unbounded   because mathematics is unbounded yeah I'd love  to go a bit deeper into that but I'd first   like to ask you you just said I mean it avoids  mathematics avoids fuzzy thinking right and we   um I'd like to talk a bit about sort of the poop  the two paradigms physicalism versus idealism   it's a big spectrum of course there's a lot  in between but could you sort of sketch our   Newtonian world view and how we always thought  about uh Consciousness and why that felt so   um scientific or scientifically correct and  and what quantum theory did to that notion   right so so many of the early scientists like  like Newton himself were were actually Believers   in God and and and Christians and and Newton  apparently wrote more theology than than physics   um but his his the Newtonian world was essentially  a mechanical world you could write down these uh   differential equations and if you knew the  starting conditions with Precision then you   could predict pretty much everything that was  going to happen um going forward and and so it   led others like George Barkley to um who was  a a bishop in the in the Christian you know   the Church of England or something like that  um to come up with his version of idealism as   sort of a counter to what he viewed was the the  mechanism the mechanical view of the universe   that came from Newton um so he he was a reaction  in part against that um and but eventually uh you   know idealism had a Heyday in the 1800s but in  the 1900s it's sort of died out um largely died   out the success of Newton and then the success of  Einstein's special and general relativity theories   um and then the success of quantum  mechanics now with quantum mechanics   the early theorists many of them like MOX plonk  for example um clearly thought that space and time   were not the fun not the final thing they they  thought you know MOX plump was very very clear   he thought Consciousness was fundamental and  he he said so um and and there was a period in   which many of the early thinkers in quantum theory  you know from like 1926 1925 until World War II   so that that period in there there was a lot of  soul-searching about what was quantum mechanics   telling us deeply about who we are and the nature  of the universe and and is the physicalist idea   that space and time and matter are fundamental so  those I mean that's that's the physicalist idea   space time is fundamental and the particles in  space time quarks uh lepitons and bosons those   are our new fundamental particles right now that  that is the fundamental grounding reality and   everything else is just a complicated pattern of  the interactions of those particles in space-time   many Quantum theorists begin to question that  early on but after the start of World War II   things changed um it we got the shut  up and calculate kind of attitude   because physics now in quantum physics  became put in service of of the war   um and and it became highly funded and it made  the atom bomb and and all of a sudden it was a   completely different thing and and so that the the  early generation that started that were thinking   what does this really mean that that really  got shut down in large part by World War II   um but but more recently than it you know like the  conference that uh we'll be having here at Chapman   um uh there's been a lot of thought now about the  nature of what our current physics theories are   telling a Quantum field Theory now with gravity  you know trying to understand how those interact   um has has led some but not too many  physicists to to once again wonder whether   Consciousness is fundamental that that I  would say not I don't know too many physicists   um I've been to an fqxi conference a few years ago  on the role of the observer in in quantum theory   and it became very very clear there that um the  idea that Consciousness might be fundamental was   was basically not on the table it it it's it's  not taken seriously but what is taken seriously   is that space-time is doomed that's really  interesting you know and we're talking   big big Giants in in physics Ed Whitton has  said that who um one of the ones who's been   foundational in string theory M Theory um Nathan  seiberg at The Institute for advanced study   and then very influentially uh Nema or Kani Hamad  who is also at The Institute for advanced study   and and it's it's become very very clear from the  actual structure of the physical laws themselves   that space-time cannot be fundamental and this  is again where the mathematics is really powerful   just like girdle used the mathematics to show that  mathematics at least any finite aximutization of   mathematics can't be the whole thing so the  physicists are using the theory of space-time   to show that space-time can't be the whole  thing and that is the beauty of the mathematics   it tells you where the theories stop this is  where space space time is great it's a wonderful   framework for a while and here is where it  stops it stops at about 10 to the minus 33   centimeters and 10 to the minus 43 seconds it  ceases to have any operational meaning and what   happens but you're referring to the Planck  scale right the smallest scale that we have   in physics what exactly happens at that that  skill that makes you say space time is doomed   so of course I'm not a physicist so I'm telling  you what the physicists say um but but what the   physicist will tell you is that the way that  you probe smaller and smaller regions of space   you know in other words do you have a better and  better microscope to look at smaller and smaller   details you need to have wavelengths of light  that are getting finer and finer because you   have to have fine wavelengths of light to resolve  fine detail in what you're looking at well that's   fine it requires more energy from quantum theory  we understand that the energy is proportional to   the frequency E equals H Nu so as the frequency  goes up you need more energy so that's fine um so   unless there's gravity and that's the problem so  with if it was just quantum mechanics you could in   principle go as far as you wanted as much energy  as you wanted but the problem is is with gravity   and Einstein energy and mass are equivalent so  as you put more and more energy into a smaller   and smaller region of space you're essentially  putting more mass into a small region of space   and then unfortunately you at some point at  around 10 to the minus 33 centimeters you just   start creating black holes and so so the very  thing that you're trying to study no longer exists   and if you put more energy if you say I'm  frustrated I'm just going to try to go smaller   with higher higher frequencies you just make  the black hole bigger so the problem just the   problem the problem literally grows so that's one  reason the second reason is that in quantum theory   the measuring devices themselves the thing  that you're using to measure the spin of the   electron or the you know the the position  of the of uh gluon or something like that   these devices themselves are physical devices  and so their quantum mechanical systems with   their own degrees of freedom and and therefore  they they have their own limits of precision   Heisenberg uncertainty kinds of things and so  if you want more and more precise measurements   you have to have more and more degrees of freedom  in those measuring devices which is going to make   them heavier and heavier and at some point once  again the device will collapse into a black hole   so if you have a small if you have a room  and you're trying to measure something in a   room it turns out there is nothing that you  can measure with Precision so there are no   local observables in any part of space and time  yeah so if you want to pinpoint space-time down   to the smallest zone really know what it is at  the smallest level it will blow in your face it   will become a black hole and that's right and and  beyond that then the very notion of space and time   of lengths and distances and and time beyond  that level simply has no operational meaning   so we're not they're not saying that there are  pixels that at the bottom level there are these   pixels like the pixels on your screen of your  computer screen or something like that no it   just means that the whole notion of space-time  itself ceases to make sense so it is so it stops   space time is doomed it cannot so this is a  huge blow because with Newton right space time   is fundamental although Newton believed it was  more of a duelist because he thought that there   was a god Beyond space-time but once once the  scientific World let go of that then it's just   space time and its particles are fundamental and  we thought we thought that it was infinitely deep   you know you could always we thought reductionism  was going to work we could just go to smaller and   smaller scales in space-time to find more and  more fundamental laws and so and with with you   know boltzmann and his work on thermodynamics  and so forth we we had our first taste and maybe   something like that could really work that we  could well not the first taste but a a compelling   taste that that kind of reductionist thing could  really work and so we were Off to the Races with   uh reductionism yes reductionism would be yeah  reductionism is so I understand this but this   is just for people watching this reductionism  means going down into space-time the smallest   uh building blocks of space-time and see if we  can understand that and if we understand that we   then we have laws that sort of govern everything  bigger including consciousness that's right so   it's going to be as we go to smaller and smaller  scales we'll just find deeper and deeper laws and   so that was that was the the dream and um it's  it's a and a new time but Donald what um I'm very   curious about your take on quantum mechanics or at  least how you would explain it I've read this book   um uh Quantum Enigma by Bruce Rosenbloom and  Fred Kutner I'm I heard it was sort of a good   introductionary book and I found it very very  um very good and they say with quantum theory   physics and countered Consciousness and I was just  wondering I've read the book and I still find it   hard to sort of reach out to people because  it's just so counterintuitive how would you   explain that that in quantum theory or or I mean  if you agree did physics encounter consciousness   well some of the earlier pioneers  of quantum theory did think that so   Mark's Planck I think Schrodinger arguably  vigner some things that Von Neumann writes   wrote seem along those lines although I won't  pin him with that but I would say when I talked   to modern day Quantum physicists um I don't  when they talk about the role of the observer   in quantum theory The Observer is a technical  term it's some kind of measuring device perhaps   another quantum system another physical  system and the idea that that consciousness   is fundamental um is a tiny minority view if you  know I would say under one percent yeah in in my   interactions they understand that that in many of  the interpretations of quantum theory that we need   to have some notion of the role Over The Observer  although the in the many worlds or Multiverse   kinds of interpretations you can start to to let  go of that role of the observer in some sense and   but they have their own  problems so so I would say that for those who um want to ignore Consciousness  and still be Quantum theorists they can do that   and and many many brilliant um physicists  are are doing just that even the ones who   um take the notion of agency as really  important in quantum theory that somehow   the the wave function is not you know the a state  of the external World independent of the agent   but is actually a statement of the degrees  of belief of the agent about the outcomes   that they will experience if they do certain  experiments certain measurements but even   in that case and the theorists doing  this are are brilliant most of them   are are going to say um I don't know what an  agent is and I'm not going to commit that it's   Consciousness I'm just talking about you know I'm  doing quantum theory you tell me what an agent is   but it's probably going to be some kind of  we really cash it out it's probably going   to you know be some kind of quantum physical  system with just lots of degrees and freedom   and and so forth but don't don't worry with me  about that right now you know I'm just going to   assume that there's some notion of agent that'll  leave undefined so I don't see what I do see is brilliant researchers like Neymar Connie  Ahmed and Juan maldacena making bold moves   Beyond space-time they're they're saying  there is you know space time is doomed   um it's the work of Our Generation to find out  what's beyond space-time so how do you do that   well you know what what kind of flashlight are  you going to use into the dark Beyond space-time   because even though Quantum field Theory and  gravity together tell us that space-time isn't   fundamental they can't tell us what's beyond  right they they just say oh this is how far I   go and no further but they can't tell you  what what's next but when you say but but   when you say you think Consciousness is  fundamental you are not in the school of   an indeed you're right that is a minority  I think the Consciousness causes collapse   sort of interpretation of quantum mechanics Evon  Neumann who still sort of believed that and John   Wheeler I don't really know I'm curious also on  your thoughts on John Wheeler but um so you are   not thinking that Consciousness somehow collapses  a world in superposition into a classical world uh no that's not not my view um I I think that  the closest to my view among the standard Quantum   interpretations is um Chris Fuchs cubism Quantum  bayesianism right so we're and I think it's   a brilliant interpretation where  where Chris Fuchs says look the the   the wave function is not some objective thing out  in space and time it's in the mind of the agent   it's the degrees of belief of the agent and and  he's he's very consistent in in pointing out that   when you're thinking about probabilities you can  either be in a objective probabilist or a Bayesian   subjectivist and and he gives good reasons  to think that uh you know just on probability   alone you should be thinking about a subjectivist  interpretation of probability and then once you   adopt that then well the quantum wave function is  really um how probabilities of interpretation just   for people who've now totally lost it and when  we when we talk about um objective probabilities   then you um then you believe there is an actual  world out there and you just don't know it right   and then you have to deal with this probabilities  and and and that that gives you sort of a way to   predict what's going to happen right but there  is an up there objective world and subjective   probabilities would be that you just don't know  what's out there or how would you describe this   well you you could be a realist about the external  world and be subjectivist about the probabilities   so you could so so the objectivism and subject  of subjectivism but probability is about   um what do we mean when we say  the probability of tails is half   well does it mean that if I flip the coin a  thousand times you'll get exactly 500 heads   and 500 tails that's a sort of a frequentness  kind of view that that what probability means   is what frequency if you do lots of observations  will you end up with uh and the subject of it says   well no it's not about objective frequencies that  are measured it's it's more about your degrees of   belief about what you know what you expect to  have happen and and so you could have prior   probabilities you know I I expect the sun to rise  tomorrow at um whatever time 5 30 in the morning   um because it's been doing so for thousands of  years and and so I have this prior I mean it's not   you know I would say it's 0.999999 you know  well you know a lot of nines that the sun   is going to rise tomorrow but there  is a tiny chance um so and that's um that's a subjective degree of belief and so  so now if if you have this idea that that   what we're dealing with in quantum theory and  when we're talking about the wave functions of   various you know like two gluons hitting each  other and four gluons spraying out in like in   the Large Hadron Collider and you're asking what  are the probabilities of these various events   um and you and you write down these scattering  amplitudes you know these amplitudes for it I   think the Cubist would say that is merely me as  a theorist putting as a good Bayesian putting   down what I expect to have happen what I expect  to see whereas an objectivist would say no it's   really a statement about something true in the  about the objective world and and you will you   can measure that truth with with frequencies um  you know by lots of lots of observations and so   my view then is more like Chris Fuchs in the  subjectivist view but in which case then I   don't need to have all these worlds out there I I  just I I'm I'm positing well okay maybe the coin   is comes heads or maybe it comes up Tails I don't  need to have a world branching out there I'm just   wondering about the difference so I don't need  to have all this metaphysical excess of well   there's a whole universe in which the thing  came up has another one in which it came up   Tails that's a you know it's a metaphysically  high price to pay for being you know but it's   so what I find so funny about this because I Now  understand this after a year of sort of getting my   head around it is that I now understand that your  position makes less metaphysical claims because   people on the street will think you're making a  crazy metaphysical claim that Consciousness is   primary and they say of course there's a world  out there and they'll maybe have read something   about the many worlds interpretation that there  is parallel universes and that they think is sort   of uh not a metaphysical claim so where's this  uh how do we how did we end up in the this sort   of misunderstanding of what metaphysics what is  sort of a heavy metaphysical claim and a light one   well I think many of us intuitively would agree  with Einstein right well Einstein was a realist   and and he thought that the moon was there when  no one looked right he didn't think that the   act of observation when I look up there and see  the moon that I'm creating the moon when I look   at it it's the Moon is really there and Einstein  wanted physics to be that way and he didn't like   the spooky interactions at a distance that he that  he himself sort of pointed out in quantum theory   that that that things could happen and faster than  the speed of light apparently and and of course   there weren't any causal interactions they were  nothing no information traveling through space   faster than the speed of light as it turned out  but he didn't like it because he wanted to have a   sort of a Newtonian a classical world view  right where yeah space and time was was much   more interesting than Newton thought but but  nevertheless it wasn't spooky like quantum   theory seemed to be indicating and so I think  most of us intuitively would would agree with   Einstein and you know he's not bad company to  you know if Einstein thinks that uh you know   space and time were fundamental and objects are  the Moon is there when no one exists who might   argue with Einstein so so I think a lot of us  intuitively think that and and I think I know why um the developmental psychologists have told us  why so Piaget said that children he thought by   the time they're out 18 months of age get what he  calls object permanence that is we're programmed   genetically at a certain point in our lives  to just believe that you know I mean up to a   point when Mommy has the the doll and it's where  I can play with it that the doll exists while I'm   playing with it but as soon as Mommy takes the  doll and puts it behind the pillow and I don't   see it it's gone it doesn't exist until you're  around 18 months of age according to Piaget   later work showed us maybe three or four months  of age much much earlier than you thought where   you get what's called object permanence which is  the the pre-programmed belief that that object   really exists even when you don't perceive it  so you start to become a metaphysical realist   not because you're argued into it because you're  programmed to believe it so so the reason why it's   so hard for us to let go of the idea that the moon  doesn't exist except when you look and create it   right well to let go of the idea that that   things really are there right we want the  dolly to be there we want the moon to be there   is because we believe that before we were rational  it's it's it's the water we swim in intellectually   and so it's really hard for us to to even see  that to question it it's it's when I I remember   giving a talk to to my own Department cognizance  department where I was explaining my argument from   Evolution why we are creating everything that  we see on the fly so I have an argument so the   physicists have an argument that space time  isn't fundamental and and therefore you know   somehow the act of observation must be creating  what we're because it's not it's not space time   whatever it is there I have an argument from from  evolution of natural selection to the same so I   gave it to my department a few years ago and the  argument was pretty clear so they were nodding   their heads and oh yeah and and I realized that  they they were they followed the argument but   they didn't know what it really meant so I said  look this means that neurons don't exist when   they're not perceived neurons cause none of our  behavior and then look up horror throughout all   my colleagues who used to think that I you know  was a reasonable and possibly intelligent guy all   of a sudden like looks of horror what is this guy  saying so so it's not it's a deep emotional thing   it's just like being told that someone that you  thought you knew really well all your life has   been in a a suit and they're really a Komodo  dragon and you did you didn't know it it's   just it's just that appalling an idea that um  you know and how is this how has this all been   for you personally I mean because it's this is  all intellectual and Mathematics because but at   night when Donald goes to bat and you ponder  about this you know how does that sort of uh   what's the impact what is the  impact been on you personally   well it's it's I I know firsthand how difficult  it is to let go of the object permanence I see   it that is my default mode so even though I've  been working on this mathematics and Publishing   papers for decades on this kind of topic um  when I'm not paying attention I'm a realist uh   you know the Moon I mean I just automatically  fall to that point of view so it's it's it's   the way I think about it is like if you've ever  played a virtual reality game that's highly   immersive right you put on a headset and bodysuit  and you you know when you first get in Hey look   this beautiful world that I'm involved in maybe  is Grand Theft Auto or whatever it might be some   VR version of that um you're so you're immersed  you're seeing all this stuff and when you first   go in you you have this sense of Detachment here  I am outside of the game with just this headset on   but once you get into it you're in the game and  your emotions get tied up in it and you you lose   yourself in the game you and and so effectively  that's what I'm saying is happening here   um space time is just our headset but we lose  ourselves in the game and we we lose we take   the game as as the reality and what what science  has done what physics has done is study space time   very very well it studied our headset and they  they studied the headset so well that they   discovered it's just a headset and that's the  power of the scientific method right we studied   space-time because we thought it was a fundamental  reality we were lost in the game but we because we   didn't just wave our hands and get dogmatic about  it we actually you know we wrote down equations   and then Einstein wrote down you know with  Einstein was the one that really blew this thing   open with general relativity because he he had the  notion like in 1907 that if I was in an elevator   standing on a a scale to weigh myself and all of a  sudden the cord broke and the elevator started in   free fall how much would I weigh on that scale and  Einstein realized I wouldn't weigh anything that   was he said what the like the happiest thought  of his life that was the key idea for general   relativity if I was on a Free Falling elevator  and standing on a scale I would weigh nothing   brilliant idea it took Einstein I don't know seven  or eight years or something like that of intense   work to turn that idea into mathematics and it  was seven I mean he's Einstein right he's not slim   schmuck he was really this really really smart guy  takes his it takes him seven or eight years he has   to learn the mathematics it was fairly unusual  mathematics Remini and geometry and so forth   but he he learned the mathematics  and struggled and struggled   and finally turned it into mathematics really  in 1915 and turned that idea into one equation   and that one equation then a year  later a guy named schwartzild   um a German guy I guess he was fighting in World  War one and had time to and the Brilliance to to   work on Einstein's equations discovered what we  now call the solution that's called black holes   and Einstein didn't know about black back black  holes and he didn't like it but his so the key   thing was you can be as smart as Einstein and  be so smart that you write down the the field   equations of general relativity and then those  equations come back and teach you something fundamental about black holes and they then in  the black holes are what tell you that space-time   cannot be fundamental itself there's got to  be something Beyond and so so that is what I   love about um the the hard-nosed scientific  attitude is turn it into mathematics the if   if you have a theory that is good enough to tell  you where it stops that's the kind of theory that   is the heart and soul of science if you have a  theory that allows you to dodge and weave and   and always Dodge any objection I have absolutely  no interest you're not playing the science game   you're playing some personal game yeah yeah  and and if we add to um if it let's stay in   that hatsat metaphor which you've used very often  of course and it's a great metaphor first of all   were you happy with the movie The Matrix what  it did sort of culturally with that metaphor   yeah I think the well the Matrix really does  open people's minds up to the possibility   that what they're experiencing is just a  simulation right now in in The Matrix though   once you pop out of the simulation is another  space-time world so when Neo takes off the headset   um he's back in the space-time world right and  and so is Trinity and everybody they're all   they're all in the space-time world so so this  what I'm saying is even more radical that that   whatever is beyond space-time is utterly unlike  space and time it's it's it's utterly outside of   space and time and that's really hard to think  outside of the space-time box when I talk about   conscious agents people go where are they I mean  and they're not in space and time where are they   and you have to turn things around space and  time is inside the minds of the conscious agents   um it's just like someone inside the virtual  reality game of Grand Theft Auto you know if   the players inside could say you think you're not  that you're not really riding a red Mustang and   you don't think that green Ferrari really exists  well where are you well I'm outside of the game   this game is just a headset but if you're not in  the game where could you possibly be if where else   is there besides the game and that's the same  situation we have with space-time we we can't   think about being outside of that game but that's  what our mathematics is telling us you've got to   think outside of that box and the best physicists  are you know well the best in the physicists   that I'm really interested in like Neymar  Cunningham Ed and Monmouth and others Benny casa   these guys are are taking the Bold step of uh  moving beyond space-time and they are finding   beautiful structures Beyond space-time that are  really um they don't know what they're about   but they're there yeah I mean I think what people  find so hard and also me myself at first you um I   was more sort of attracted to this idea of um our  brains being a receiver to a larger Consciousness   right that you see sort of the radio what's that  interpretation called I think it's Aldous Huxley   who's sort of popular popularized the idea  and but you also say that your brain itself   is just a sort of and your whole body itself is a  projection in space-time now it's not real it has   no causal uh a role to play for Consciousness at  all that that's right so I right now I don't have   a brain I have no neurons if you looked inside  my skull you would find neurons and brains but   that's because you would create them as you looked  the act of observation is creating what you see so   the the brain isn't a receiver for Consciousness  because the brain doesn't even exist the brain   itself is just a symbol inside of Consciousness  that Consciousness makes now and then and then   deletes so it's just like when if you're playing  a virtual reality game like like the Grand Theft   Auto and you have your headset on if I look  over to the right and I'll see a green Mustang   well there is no green Mustang right what  I'm really interacting with in this in this   metaphor is some super computer somewhere yeah  I know it's got all this megabytes of software   and diodes and resistors and voltages and  magnetic fields I don't know anything about   that I don't have to know but that's the reality  quote unquote in this metaphor there's no green   Mustangs inside that computer anywhere there's  nothing green inside that computer that looks   like a Mustang so I'm creating the Mustang  when I look and I'm deleting it when I look   over here now I see a you know a white Porsche  well now I've deleted the green Mustang and I'm   I'm creating the white Porsche so we create the  stuff on the fly but someone has to look someone   else might be looking at that green Mustang  right for that person it will still exist so   but it but the it will be a different green  Mustang than the one I saw right because I   create my own Mustang in my head and they create  their green Mustang and in their head and we think   that we're seeing the same Mustang because we  agree is there a Mustang tomorrow right oh yeah   there's a Mustang to your right and so we we think  that we're we're seeing exactly the same that's   that baby principle the object permanence you  mentioned right that my my child happens that and   um but the hard part also is that people  find difficult to understand is that if for   instance I take alcohol or psychedelics which  is something in space-time that definitely has   a causal effect on my Consciousness right  right so so it's absolutely the case that   space and time are an interface that allow us  to do things that can affect Consciousness so   so for writing for example right now um you are  affecting my consciousness and you're you're   doing it through space and time you're doing it  through an interface so we know that even with   the idea that Consciousness is fundamental that  one Consciousness can affect another Consciousness   through the intermediary of space and time and in  fact that's what space and time are they are this   interface it's an interface that some conscious  agents use to interact with other consultations so   it's no surprise that actions that we take using  an interface could affect our Consciousness that's   what the interface is for now but the reason  why people have a hard time understanding this   is because we make another mistake we mistake  because we mistake our interface for reality   we also make a fundamental mistake that  things that look simple to us are therefore   necessarily simple in and of themselves and  things that look dead to us are necessarily   dead so so for example now if you look in  the mirror I see my face I I presume when   I look at your face you're conscious and um so  faces point to conscious objects those well I   look at my cat my is surely alive and is probably  conscious and an aunt certainly live people might   begin to wonder about Consciousness when I get  down to a microbe alive probably not conscious   and when you get down to virus now we even  debate about whether it's alive we get down   to particles absolutely not alive and and only if  you're a pansychist would you might you might say   that they have some Consciousness associated with  them but a physicalist would say no consciousness   that whole way of looking at  things is fundamentally flawed   it's mistaking a limit of our interface  for an insight into the nature of reality   an interface necessarily has to simplify things  that's what an interface is there for is is to   hide most of the reality and the part of reality  that it shows you it's dumbing it down well   so with certain symbols like human bodies and  human faces we get perhaps the most insight into   other consciousnesses with other symbols like  cat and dog and mouse we get less insight and   with other symbols we get almost no Insight well  that doesn't mean that I'm not interacting with   Consciousness it just means that my interface gave  up well no surprise that's what interfaces do they   give up at some point but it's a rookie mistake  to take the pixels of my desktop interface as the   fundamental elements of reality and and so right  now I'm looking at a bunch of pixels which is you   know hans's face so those pixels are conscious  but if I go smaller and smaller the you know   the pixels that correspond to the door behind  you or whatever those aren't well that's that's   that's the wrong way to think about the pixels  this is just those are just pixels they're they're   a portal through which I'm actually interacting  with something on the other side so we've we've   mistaken our interface for the reality so our  the distinction that we make between conscious   and unconscious and between living and non-living  is not a principle distinction a distinction it's   a mistake it's it's it's a rookie mistake that  that we make by mistaking our space-time headset   for the final truth and so so as a result now  to get back to your question when we start to   do things like take drugs or get hit on the head  and we we have changes in Consciousness well at   first there's no surprise that the interface  allows you to change Consciousness that's what   it's for it's what Consciousness is used to  interact and affect other consciousnesses   when I have something that I call a drug if I'm a  physicalist I'm thinking these hey there's nothing   to this but but some chemicals right this is a  chemical formula there's no consciousness here   so here is this physical thing a chemical and  look it's taking down your Consciousness so that   shows that physicalism is true physicalism you  know your brain is creating your Consciousness   and this drug is affecting your brain so it's  changing your conscience but again it's a rookie   mistake just because something has so simple in my  interface that looks like a chemical doesn't mean   I'm not interacting with Consciousness it just  means that I'm getting very very little insight   from my interface into the Consciousness that I'm  interacting with so I'm always dealing with behind   the screen of my interface I'm always dealing  with Consciousness just like in Grand Theft Auto   behind the screen I'm dealing first with a  super computer but then with all the other   people around the world that have their  headsets and bodysuits on I'm affecting   them I'm talking with them through  the through that interface and so   um it's no surprise that the interface is giving  me no insight into the Consciousness that I'm I'm   interacting with but what is the glory of science  is it has the tools to tell us a headset is just   a headset and that's what the math is telling  us when they say space time is doomed basically   physics is learned the headset is just a headset  and we're starting to look outside the headset now   Nema and and these other physicists I'm not  saying that they in any way endorse my idea   that Consciousness is fundamental so I would I  would bet that they don't I would think that they   are are just saying look we're finding these  structures Beyond space-time I don't know what   they're about yet but we're just let's stick with  the math let's find these structures and show how   space-time arises and hats off to that that's  that's I think brilliant yeah but at least they   agree with you on the point that what we're  in uh is not fundamental so this this yeah if   you call it a hatset or not but space-time  cannot be it and there you there you agree I've heard you explain this a lot of  times but I'd like to hear it now from   you again and maybe in different words  today but what makes you take the leap   then to say if space-time is not  fundamental Consciousness must be um there's a couple reasons maybe  the the biggest one is the poverty   of my imagination but what else  would I do it's sort of like what   if I'm interested in consciousness you know I'm  interested in my emotions my sensory experiences   the the sense that I have of being even when  I'm not really perceiving or thinking I'm still   you know when you're at night with your eyes  closed and you're not seeing anything or   perceiving anything you're still there is this  sense of I am the the sense of being there and   is perfectly plausible if space-time is  fundamental and physicalism is true and   reductionism is true to to take all of that stuff  that I just said you know my conscious experience   and so forth as well that's not real I mean I'm  just a brain I'm just a body and this is perhaps   um you know some weird effective matter when it  gets complicated enough and but when space-time   isn't fundamental and I realize that that  particles are not fundamental and reductionism   as as Nema or Connie hamedis said you know  reductionism is dead reductionism is is completely   dead it doesn't work so so many physicalists  many of my colleagues in cognitive neuroscient   who are and some of them will  be here at this at this Workshop   so they're cognitive neuroscientists I would  say to almost to a person every one of them is   a physicalist um and so they're looking to see how  Consciousness emerges from complex neural activity   or whatever integrated information or Global  workspaces or neuronal microtubule collapses so   they're they're they're not going to think of  Consciousness as being fundamental they're going   to think of it as somehow emerging so they want  but they want they take Consciousness seriously   so here's the so most of my physicalist colleagues  not all but most take Consciousness seriously they   say it's not something to just be dismissed it's  not an illusion you know Dan Dennett and Keith   Frankish will say it's an illusion it's just  flat out an illusion you know we've been misled   um but most will not but but they have not been  able with their own theories and this did affect   me when I looked at their theories I realized I  there's no beef here they're in in the following   sense specifically there's no specific conscious  experience that anybody's ever explained right   integrated information Theory I asked I asked  Julie tanoni about this back in the late 1990s   he came to talk early on in his career at the  University of California Irvine at the helmholtz   club and we had them there and so I asked him at  the helmets Club to give me a particular example   he couldn't do it you know one specific you know  the taste of chocolate or the the feeling of a   headache or the the smell of garlic or whatever  what is the specific conscious experience that   your theory can say this is the integrated  information that must be that conscious experience   it could it must be the taste of chocolate  it couldn't be this yeah and we're talking   here about the code let's call it the algorithm  or show me the code the exact code that must be   the taste of chocolate or or garlic smell exactly  right the the right the the because there in some   sense you can think about what they're doing  is proposing these circuits right the circuits   have certain kind of integrated information so so  okay great sounds very very rigorous give me the   circuit for one conscious just one I just want a  circuit that you say must be one specific specific   conscious experience it must be you know the taste  of vanilla and it could not be the smell of garlic   just give me one but we're trying to do science  here we need some predictions of specific it's the   the predictions they're making is am I conscious  at all or not and that is an artifact what they're   getting is an artifact of our interface when I get  a certain kind of complexity now in my interface   I can start to see the Consciousness that doesn't  mean I'm that there's no consciousness otherwise   it just means that that's when my interface lets  me see the Consciousness so it's no surprise that   you can get these complexity measures in the  variables of your interface about when you   can detect Consciousness or not that that's no  surprise that follows from my theory that that   you know my Approach in which Consciousness is  fundamental so that's no surprise what would be   a surprise from my point of view is that they  could explain any specific conscious experience   so every I'll say this there is no physicalist  theory that has at any time proposed a specific conscious experience that they can explain  there's not one on the table and I you know I   asked I mean and again nothing personal here I'm  friends with a lot of these people I'm friends   with Stuart hammeroff and and last time I was on  stage with him I pressed him give me one Stuart   what is the orchestrated collapse of uh you  know Quantum States uh in ronal microtubules   that must be whatever you want you know the the  the smell of uh barbecue whatever whatever you   want you think he still likes Stuart hammeroff  and Roger Penrose are our physicalists in that   sense they they are like the objective collapse  uh kind of school right which states that there   must be an external real world out there there  well either that or or do list but but probably   mostly physicalist I would say that that somehow  this this non-computational aspect of physics   they think may be and somehow  where Consciousness somehow emerges   but what I want when I talk with Stuart is  okay great give me one what is the specific   orchestrated collapse of neuronal microtubule  states that must be whatever you want can you   give me one and last so I had to really press  him on the stage it took me several presses to   really get him to say I don't have one and he  knows the next time we're friends I would love   to have a beer with him and so forth he's a great  guy next time I'm on stage with him I'm going to   ask the same question and I'm sure he knows it  I'll ask the same question and and the point is and again this is nothing personal these are  good friends and what I'm hoping is I mean   they're so smart if I can get them off of this  physicalist thing where they're they're doomed   to fail right space time is doomed there's no way  that you can boot up a theory of Consciousness if   you start with particles or any structures inside  space-time you cannot do it so so I see all of my   my friends and colleagues in this field many  of them just iq's out the Wazoo but when you   have I mean if I'm trying to set up for example  a theory of space travel and I believe in Flat   Earth good luck I mean you just have sort of  the wrong framework to think about space travel   yeah I think for people it's just very nice  to bring it back to the because people know   the Matrix they know sort of VR metaphors um  to sum up everything we've discussed so far so   when we entered this game or  this simulation or this Matrix   um object permanence sort of psychologically made  us forget that we put on a headset in the first   place and now we are sitting here as two adults  and and you it's your life's work to sort of   uh get to the point that you know we are we have  a ad set on and to describe that habset and then   of course to think about how we can put it  off again right that's right um and once we   realized that space and time were not fundamental  space-time is doomed and reductionism is dead   then we're free to begin to think about what's  beyond space-time and my hypothesis that it is   that it's a network of conscious agents and  I have a you know with my colleagues caitan   prakash and Manish Singh and and Chris fields  and Robert pretner and others I we're all   developing this mathematical model not that I  believe that we're right I don't it's I believe   girdle that any mathematical model that we come  up with will only be scratching the surface but   I don't think that we're wasting our time  we we in some sense make some progress we do   at least counter our own dogmatism and we  look Beyond and somehow when we get new deeper   theories we also get new deeper technologies  that are telling us somehow that that we're   we're getting some kind of insights that are  tapping into something that we couldn't tap into   before so this so I'm working with my colleagues  collaborators on on this mathematical theory of   of conscious agents and then what we have to  do is show how space-time emerges specifically   right with mathematical Precision we have to  show exactly how space time emerges um as as   a headset so what is it about the Dynamics of  conscious agents that is being captured by the   by the space-time headset that that we use you  can you prove that I don't know that's it's my   lack of understanding of mathematics but can  you prove something like that mathematically well what you can I I wouldn't use the word  proof but what you can do is you can write down   a mathematical projections so you can say here is  this mathematical model of conscious agents it's   like like the twitterverse right so it's a big  social network and you can say here's how Twitter   works you know this guy tweets and he follows and  he retweets so you can sort of write down the the   laws of how tweeting works so it's like that so  I've got the social network of conscious agents   they have their own laws about how they work and  then you can look at the patterns that evolve in   in that right so like with the Twitter versus  like what is trending and why and so forth and   how do you get these little in groups where  you you know have Echo Chambers and so forth   so you can look at all the things that happen  then you can say okay let's ask what about what   aspects of this complicated dynamics of conscious  agents gets mapped into what we call space and   time how precisely with mathematical Precision  what like what are the trends in the behaviors   of conscious agents and that and really that's  the way we think about the we call technically   we call it the asymptotic or long-term Behavior  but it's really like Trends in in social media   how how shall we capture those long-term behaviors  those trends in the format of space and time and   what we call physical objects how do we do that  so we we've actually and I'm all at this Workshop   I'm going to be proposing a mathematically  precise path it I mean I won't say the path   now because it's just a bunch of mathematics it  wouldn't make any sense but there are there are   like five or six steps precise mathematical  Steps From the Dynamics of conscious agents   all through permutations through these polytopes  through the amplitohedron and into space-time so   so there's this mapping that that and so the  idea then is I've got this high level picture   with my team and now we have to work out it's  going to take years to work out all the details   of each step in this but but we see the path  from the Dynamics of conscious agents through   permutations and brickoff polytopes to grasmanians  to amplitahedron into space-time so there's a lot   of work to be done but once we do that once we  have enough progress on that then we can get   to the other thing you're talking about which  is it'll give us new technologies essentially   we once we know what's beyond what well I won't  say once we know what's beyond space-time once   we have our first baby step Theory the first baby  Step Beyond space-time that that's really solid   and it'll be you know conscious agents 1.0 then  maybe you know in five years it'll be conscious   agents 10.0 or something like that hopefully it'll  will move quickly and but this is like fundamental   stuff right this is the real cool stuff we are  still thinking of traveling in space-time and   we have all these space-time fantasies right and  so also science fiction don't you think that when   you look at like what Christopher Nolan does in in  his movies that's that's really great I admire it   as a filmmaker I think it's absolutely fantastic  and it's very close to science but uh to me the   the really fascinating stuff also for artists to  fantasize about uh what we could do right because   when we go outside of space-time we do not have a  clue what what's what what we're waiting for right   that's right so one of the things that that occurs  to me um most of the galaxies that we can see   we could never go to space is expanding  so quickly that we could never get to them   through space moving at the speed of light so  there's all this real estate out there that   we can see that's waving at us and saying nanny  nanny you can never get here well that's if you   go through space-time but if space time is just  a headset think about the options that come you   don't have to go through space-time you could go  around space-time think about Grand Theft Auto   and everybody that's got the headset on is playing  Grand Theft Auto they're stuck within the game   but if you're a software engineer who knows about  the computer and the software you could you could   take the guy who's driving the fastest car and  winning the game you could give them flat tires   out of out of nowhere you could take the gas  out of his tank you could turn this car upside   down and put it somewhere else anytime you want  to you're not stuck in space and time the the   whole notion of causality nothing can go faster  than certain speed inside Grand Theft Auto and   in space time nothing can go faster than the  speed of light well that's that's all just   part of the the headset once you go outside this  headset you can Tinker with it but then you're   also serve them we also can can take the Matrix  metaphor again right this is like Neo programming   yourself like new skills out of nowhere uh it  potentially could be possible you're saying it it certainly does seem to be quite possible  that we could be interacting with other conscious   agents in in a way that we can't even  conceive right now and and tapping in to   an intelligence that is inconceivable  literally inconceivable because it   transcends any conceptual system that and  if this idea that we are consciousness is correct and that that's what is the  fundamental reality then then girdles in   completeness theorem tells us that in fact you  and I already are that infinite intelligence   we're projected into a particular headset and  waking up to that fact and that then you know   raises an interesting question which  is what is consciousness doing and why   and and the girdle seems to be saying  to us is that there's an infinite   unbounded unstopped Unstoppable realm of  exploration that Consciousness needs to do   and so what Consciousness is doing is exploring  all of its possibilities and one maybe to   understand itself so it's the old um Delphi or  Oracle of Delphi um you know know thyself at that   yeah but do you think a lot of questions here um  one I'd like to the ontology of conscious agents   what are your thoughts here I mean what are we  talking about those conscious agents outside of   space-time are we I mean people would say we think  Spirits or gods but any thoughts right so the   the theory that we have picks just two aspects  of Consciousness because when you're trying to   do a scientific theory what you're trying to do is  say what are the minimal ingredients that I need   to boot up a completely general theory right  and if you if you ask yourself the question what   what if I'm thinking about Consciousness being  fundamental well what kinds of things do I want   to really understand well I need to understand  experiences I need to understand Free Will and   or action I need to understand learning memory  problem solving intelligence the notion of a self   uh emotions what so now if I just assume all that  stuff I'm not doing I'm not making a scientific   theory I'm just saying well that's what I'm just  sort of sitting back with a beer and saying well   that's what exists but if I'm trying to do a  scientific theory I'm what I have to do is to   play that game is I have to say Okay what out of  all that stuff I was talking about and more that   you know Consciousness has to be dealing with  what are the two things or the one thing that I   need to really turn into mathematics and say this  is the foundation and then boot up everything else   that's what science is about so what we've picked  is there are conscious experiences like the taste   of chocolate and those those conscious experiences  can influence other conscious experiences   those are the assumptions that's it there are  experiences and experiences probabilistically   influence other experiences that's the minimum  that's so notice there's no notion of memory   problem solving self none of that stuff is there  so we we have to build all that stuff from the raw   materials of just conscious experiences affecting  other conscious experiences and that's so that's   what we're really up to is a mathematical model  of that now you could say look you picked the   wrong starting point that's fine that I I that's  the kind of critique that I would welcome I'd say   okay pick some other starting point make your own  networks of whatever you want to call them um but   then you'll be having to explain other things  and that's that's perfectly fine so I picked   what I thought I couldn't get away with I I mean  I and one reason why you want as few things as   possible to that you're assuming it to begin with  is because the things you assume are your miracles   right the scientific theory has its assumptions  every theory has an assumption those assumptions   are the things you're saying if you grant me  these assumptions then I can explain all this   other good stuff but I'm not explaining these  assumptions and that's what I mean when I say   they're they're miracles for that theory they're  the things that you just say please let me have   this then I'll explain all this other stuff so you  want to have your Miracles as few as possible now   of course I've helped myself to a big miracle  conscious experiences yeah it's very natural   to say this is It's only only the last couple of  hundred years that we find that a weird assumption   to make but actually it's the only thing we have  right that this is Descartes but then we forgot   forgot about that and we got so immersed in in the  what we assume to be the real world that he forgot   about that that privacy Primacy of Consciousness  that's what dawned to me I mean we're looking   inside conscious we're doing the the large Hayden  collider we do that in Consciousness we let these   particles accelerate and burst into each other  that it's within Consciousness everything right   that's that's so that that's that's exactly  right so when you start to look at it you   realize well no I've this has just been a headset  all along space and time has just been a headset   all along it's con it's really Consciousness  looking at other consciousnesses through   through this filter and so yeah the experiences  are fundamental my experience of space and time   is just my experience that and just as soon as  I close my eyes the moon literally disappears   it's it's it's it's it's really it's gone now  there's something out there not not out there   in the sense of out there in space but there's  something out you know beyond my experiences and   it's by hypothesis other conscious agents so I'm  interacting with other conscious agents and what   I see are things like the moon or um an amoeba or  a rock it's not that the rock is conscious it's   just it's just like again like the pixels in in  my Grand Theft Auto headset that are that are um   that that I see as a Porsche those pixels are not  a Porsche those are just pixels I'm making the I'm   making the Porsche in my Consciousness right so  and that's the same thing so I'm not saying that   the rock is conscious the rock is my my pixelated  headset is pointing to when I look at uh at Hans   right I see a face skin hair and eyes that what  I'm seeing is not your Consciousness I'm seeing   something that I created in fact that hands  is now gone and now now it's there so but   your Consciousness presumably stayed there even  when I wasn't paying it's an icon that refers   to something else and um what I'm wondering is  also a question I had is could it be that those   conscious agents in creating uh space-time  as a hatsat built in uh certain hacks so to   speak we know for instance death is one I mean  if I jump uh in front of a train I'll die and   I'll I'll somehow right we know that and that  sets off then right all right suppose that and   what are other ones I mean is meditation one or  psychedelics one what are your thoughts there   I think that there's an infinite variety that  that the headset that we have right now is just   one of it literally an infinite variety and so  this is this might sound similar to an idea that   a physicist named Max tegmark has put out so so  Max tegmark has the idea of these multiverses but   um he thinks that mathematics is fundamental that  it is the fundamental reality not Consciousness   mathematics and not space time not least not  our space time and and also I think building   on girdles in completeness theorem he points out  that there's an infinite variety of mathematics   out there and so that's his level what he calls  level four Multiverse every kind of mathematics   that is possible is actual and it's all out  there so it's it really exists and my guess is   in a similar spirit I don't take mathematics as  fundamental I think Consciousness is fundamental   but and Mathematics is like the bones of  the living organism of Consciousness so it's   different from Max check Mark's view but where  it's similar is whereas Max says everything   that's mathematically possible is mathematically  real and that's my Multiverse I'm saying every   structure of Consciousness that's mathematically  possible e is meth is consciously real   and that's my Consciousness Multiverse with  all the possible headsets that that it could   could have and so our little space time one  is presumably one of just many that are that   are concretely right now inconceivable to us but  but what's interesting to me about consciousness   is in this framework why is it doing this why why  should consciousness go to all the effort like   this is a pretty amazing space time universities  like billions of light years across it's got   trillions of stars and hundreds of billions  of galaxies and in this framework in which   conscience is fundamental what was happened  to Consciousness put on this headset programmed itself to get lost in it to think  of itself as a tiny little object in this   vast universe and then to slowly wake up and to  recognize as vast as amazing as this whole thing   is I transcend it is that what Consciousness  is about it's it's knowing what it is   by knowing what it's not so  it really immerses itself into   a headset like space and time and gets lost in  it and flounders in it and really it has to like   learn how to play it you might don't touch the  fire you'll burn it you're like we really have   don't step in front of the car you you learn it's  painful and you learn and so you're learning all   how this headset works and then you're learning  about the how fantastic it is and then you wake   up and realize I'm not a little thing inside  that headset that headset headset is a tiny   little thing inside of me I am not that and  that's how Consciousness is knowing itself   and maybe if girdle one way of interpreting  girdle is that that process is never ending um there may be a deeper way in which you can just  view it as as a vast incredible intelligence that   just knows that but every perspective on that  gives you this temporal feeling of coming and   waking up to it so there may be an even deeper  perspective in which the you could look at the   whole thing as you know just a vast intelligence  that already knows it all but any projection of   that you're seeing it as a process of coming to  know itself um so what's interesting is if if   this is anywhere close to right then you and I and  every anybody that any person is really part of   that infinite intelligence but wearing a headset  but we're wearing a headset that has really strict limits on it if I ask you please imagine  a color that you've never seen before just one   specific color that you've never seen before does  anything happen nothing I mean nothing happens   but but but there you know it turns out  that there are women called tetraphems   who have four color receptors most most guys  have three 93 percent of men have three color   receptors seven percent of men have only two these  women have four color receptors and experiments   strongly suggest that they have a new dimension  of color experience that no man could ever   imagine and most women can't imagine either and  and so they're having concrete experiences that   you and I can't even we can't even imagine and  and so what's stunning to me is that Consciousness   if we if you and I really are not separate  we're just we're just different headsets on   the one big Consciousness the the one infinitely  intelligent conscious separate from that we really   I mean it would be it's pretty stunning we  are actually not just connected with we are   projections of that infinite intelligence but  projections that we've taken the projection   so seriously that we can't even imagine a new  color we've really restricted our imagination   even though within Consciousness at a deeper level  all things are possible all possible experiences   are there yeah we truly sort of somehow forgot  who we are and the function being to expand   um yeah expand this whole thing right it was  needed somehow to but but what I'm wondering   here I I heard you say uh your reading or maybe  even um revaluating religious literature and   because this is so similar of course to Eastern  philosophy and uh um traditions of meditation   that that tend to bring you back to sort of this  primordial awareness that you're a part of and   make you see that all else is is Created from  from that awareness so I'm just wondering here   what your thoughts are is science and these  traditions of introspection mostly are they   coming together are we going to see a science  that sort of includes introspection maybe even   I I think that will need to go there I I  think that that's we'll need scientists   if this idea is anywhere  near right and we really are   um the infinite Consciousness in in a space-time  headset then the best way to do our scientific   research is of course to use our mathematics  and to do all the stuff that we're doing right   now the study and so forth but then also to step  back to literally let go of thought completely   and just dive back into that non-conceptual  infinite intelligence you're doing that right   you you ask I spend a couple hours a day even  more two or three hours a day meditating and   are you then breaking outside that side set I  mean uh making a tiny crack into the headset I would say tiny crack when I when I read  the experiences of others I would say that   um there are many far more  advanced to me but but but I do   I do go into periods of complete inner silence  and I think in those periods we're probably one   whatever ideas I have that are that might be of  any interest come from from that that and I think   that if we really cultivate that as scientists  and and as and you know as as you know artists and   writers and so forth whatever Endeavor we might be  involved in going into ultimate complete silence   letting go of the restrictions of our conceptual  system really puts us in touch with this infinite   intelligence from which we can then take back  insights that we can try to then reconceptualize   and and and make um useful in in this headset and  many of the Great scientists seem to talk in ways   that suggest that like Einstein would say that he  he wasn't really getting the ideas from just the   equations he was he would go and have these vague  feelings and ideas and and I you know pictures or   something like that and it would take him a long  time to turn the stuff into language and and   Mathematics but he was so he was you know suggest  that he was going and maybe I think many of the   Great physicists and scientists more generally and  then of course people in the Arts and Humanities   who are doing wonderful work um they're getting  their inspiration probably even with just brief   periods of of Silence maybe that they don't even  know that is when they go into that inner silence   that that we let go of the headset temporarily and  tap into this deeper intelligence so that could be   I would if this is right I would suggest that  in the future we would train our our scientists   with all of the standard tools but also treat and  teach them to tap into this infinite intelligence   as well spend time on a regular basis um letting  go of all of your thirst and recognizing that   hey in some sense every Theory we come up with  here was Child's Play all of it is Child's Play   it's girdle tells us everything that you come up  with Child's Play there's there's a quote from   Newton that um I'll put up at the end of my talk  at the workshop where he he basically says I don't   know what other people think of me but I think of  myself as a little boy that spent my life uh on   this on the seashore picking up a pretty Pebble or  a shell while the whole ocean of of of unexplored   is beyond me yeah it's just just sitting there  and I and and I think that's the right attitude is   is not the theory of every I don't  have a theory of everything where   and science will never get a Theory of Everything   we can't we'll get a theory of everything except  our assumptions and those assumptions keep going   down and down and down forever girdle tells us  so yeah your theory of everything except your   assumptions is is basically a theory that barely  scratches the surface and and so in that sense it it changes the whole dynamic right right now  a lot of the dynamic is I'm this little tiny   thing in this vast space and time and I don't  feel very significant and the only way to get   significance is to make my mark So to make a  new scientific theory a new piece of art or   that piece of literature the the Great American  novel finally that the Great American whatever it   might be I'm trying to make myself significant  or have some lasting value by something I do   but when you and that puts a lot of pressure on  you you only got 60 70 80 maybe 90 years to do   it and um you know and then will they really look  at your painting 200 years from now who you know   who knows will they it's it's it's you're really  grasping at stuff to get significance for yourself   but and and it's sort of a struggle right so I'm  doing all this stuff or I can just say you know   screw it I'm gonna just drink and have a good  time and then but but then I'm not significant   I just acknowledge that I'm here to have a good  time but but when we let go of the physicalist   framework we say no I am consciousness I transcend  this death is just stepping out of this headset   so the tank that puts that all that I'm  doing in a very different framework so   I feel the innate drive to try to be significant  and to be better than the other all that comp   that's sort of wired into us just like object  permanence is wired into so I see that's all in   other words we're wired up to take the headset  seriously and so Consciousness sort of wired   itself up to take the headset seriously but part  of the waking up process is to step back and go   oh wow okay oh no no I'm not a little thing  inside the headset the headset is inside of   me I I'm eventually going to take the headset off  so I can have a looser relationship with all this   stuff I don't need to get that big house to to be  something I don't need to have that big scientific   paper I don't need to be acknowledged I I this  is just all has it done this for you Donald has   it done this for you what you're now saying yeah  sort of this realization in your personal life   it it's interesting it it does  it for me when I am conscious   when I let go of thought and sit there and  conscious Consciousness without thought   yes but as soon as I get back into thought then  I'm back into the the old self that that says   oh that it's just and by the way it's just  it's automatic it's just like yeah the Moon   is there yeah I need for my you know for my own  significance to solve this problem or publish this   paper so it so I always have to step back and look  at that and go okay there it is and so part of it   with that see that may be part of the whole  waking up process because when I step back and   I go okay look there it is there you know it feels  it feels bad it feels like I'm under pressure why   am I Under Pressure this is a game oh I'm taking  the game so I got lost in the game again okay so   here so here I am lost in the game so so that the  periods of Consciousness where you go oh look at   that uh you know I I'm I'm competing with so  and so I feel mad at so and so wait a minute   I mean because Joe just told stole my Ferrari  and Grand Theft Auto I mean it's just it's just   a game who cares if Joe stole my Ferrari in Grand  Theft Auto I absolutely love it but but it it's   it's so beautiful because it this brings brings  me back to discussions I have with Bernardo and   Essentia of course is that we want to communicate  pure science right you don't want people to uh uh   shift or accept an idealist world view because  they want meaning in their life right like you   would pick a religion because you want meaning no  you wanna you want it because it's true because   it's more truthful than a physicalism but you  do get as a sort of bonus a lot of extra meaning   right because do you think culturally and where  the world's at right now that this shift towards   your view that Consciousness is fundamental could  also sort of bring us further and sort of make   us tackle problems within the game that we are  now sort of just I'm talking climate inequality   everything we see happening right now what are  your thoughts there yes I I think that this does   lead to a perspective on social interactions  and climate change and things like that so communism in principle sounds like a great  idea no ownership everybody works and shares   and if we were all wonderful consciousnesses  and that's that's it that would be that would   be fine but but when we're plunged into  this headset it it's competition it's   nature red and tooth and Claw that that and  so communism doesn't work because we're all   asleep we all buy the headset but if  we wake each other up if consciousness   so there are certain spiritual teachers right who  are doing that like Eckhart Tolle for example and   and many others who who are doing a great job  of sort of helping to wake people up and say   you're not a little thing inside space and  time you are the fundamental consciousness   the only way for us to get social institutions  that work better is for for the people to change   right now we we need things like democracy and  and maybe even blockchain because we don't trust   each other right so what what is the why do  we have democracy well you know if we have a   monarch we know that the monarch it's luck of the  draw if it's uh Nero you're in trouble if it's   Marcus Aurelius you're great but but that's very  unlikely you're going to go to Marcus Aurelius so   so when we have people that are asleep that  believe that they're little items inside the   headset then we have to have all these rules  in place and and so forth but as we wake up   then I think and maybe Humanity will maybe that's  what Consciousness is about in in this headset   is is Humanity waking up and uh you know maybe  maybe the science for the last several centuries   where it's studied space and time and and  all of a sudden realized space-time is doomed   and my interpretation we realized it's a headset  that was a huge part of this Consciousness waking   up that the space time is doomed as a big one  now realize it's a headset realize oh we're the   Consciousness beyond the headset and then as we  wake up maybe we can have a different kind of   interaction with each other inside the headset and  so until there's the waking up then we just have   to use the standard you know rules and enforcement  and democracy avoid the Monarch and all this stuff   because any one person in power makes the whole  thing vulnerable that's the blockchain takes it to   the extreme where you basically we make it you'd  have to have a third of the players right with   the that are trying to be negative or take things  down for the thing to fall apart with a monarchy   you just need one player to take it down but  when you blockchain you need like a third of the   players to be malicious you know um what they do  what they call Byzantine attacks and so forth so   so I think that changing human nature  simply by waking us up to what we really are   is is the way forward for for the social things  otherwise what we have to do is just make sure   that we have the right rules and and yeah and  and you do this and I think that is sort of noble   and and so important that it's done through  mathematics and not sort of because we had   spiritual religious Traditions doing this but  we also see them falling back in that headset   reality right and that's all about power and sort  of control uh whereas at the core some of them or   many of them I think point to this but it feels  as if mathematics is maybe the most safe way to   do this you just don't make mistakes in doing  so in waking up make make sure we really wake   up and not sort of fool ourselves I I think so  I think that the mathematics is a gift that it   it counteracts dogmatism it counteracts fuzzy  thinking it counteracts being asleep in some sense   it it really is a wonderful tool um to wake us up  the I think there's something really deep there   mathematics and relationship to Consciousness  I I feel like my insight into that is trivial my understanding is trivial But but so when I  say that that math is the bones of Consciousness   I mean that's a metaphor but I feel like uh you  know like Newton I'm like a baby boy on the the   shore and there's something really deep out there  um and Donald did you too to close our interview   because we started with your upbringing your dad  being this is the fundamental uh of minister in   a in a fundamental Protestant Church did you ever  uh is he still alive your father or he died five   years ago all right sorry to hear that but uh  did you ever discuss your your work and Theory   did you have discussions with him about this and  what what what do they think about what you did   your your work I I did and I think he had mixed  feelings about it I think that he still thought   the Earth is 4 000 years old but I think that he  also liked that I was saying the Consciousness   is fundamental because he thought that that was  true um that but he he had a notion of of of God   you know that's sort of separate  from us in some sense and   and the notion of that I have is more that we are  all one with whatever that one Consciousness is   um and that may be what Christianity really means  deep down when it says we're all children of God   right that that might be um the the what that  what that means so uh he he had I think mixed   feelings he wanted me to pursue this because  he liked it was not physicalist so he loved   the the mathematics and the science that was  showing that that space-time isn't fundamental   but but and I and I learned not to work argue  with him about evolution of a natural selection   and the age of the Earth because within the  interface saying it so you know when you take   on the framework of the interface it's just  wrong to say it's 4 000 years old right it's   just wrong now if you step outside the interface  then then I can say the very notion of time itself   is an illusion it's an artifact of projection into  our headset so there's a deep sense in which yeah   it's not 4 000 years old it's not a billion  years old you know it's it's it right but but   within the interface if you're playing within the  interface then you need to play play fair within   the interface it's just not it's not 4 000 years  old funny it's so funny because it really reminds   it's the sort of discussions I have with my dad it  really likes the fact that all of this is pointing   to Consciousness being primary but the moment I  start telling that we are all one or part of this   one Consciousness I mean I'm much into bernardo's  thinking here as well then I'm losing him because   he really wants this God creator sort of exactly  what you're saying outside of Separation yeah   yeah yeah yeah I agree now I'll just say one  little thing too about the the the Eastern   Traditions that are more mystical that what this  can do is they talk about language as pointers   that the the word isn't it and so forth but what  science can do is really up our game on pointers   it can really help us it's it's no it's nothing  to boast about that we've used the same pointers   for 3000 years so I'm using the same pointer  that you know the Dowda Ching use or something   like that that that's there's nothing to boast  about what we would like are as a way to get   surely if Consciousness is infinitely deep we  don't want to be sticking with the same pointers   all the time we need deeper and new pointers  to and that's where science and spirituality   together not antagonistically but the insights of  spirituality with the rigor of science together   can evolve new pointers that that help us to  avoid one of the big problems of human nature   which is dogmatism both among scientists and  among spiritual people I mean spiritual people   can be very very dogmatic but I know the truth  it's very very nice to have the mathematical   stuff to actually push you so that you you know  we believe dogmatically space-time is fundamental   our math said no no no space time your your best  theory of space-time tells you that space-time is   not fundamental that's how we avoid dogmatism we  need to bring math into church um yes I will go to   those sermons those are sermons I will go to thank  you so much Donald you have to leave thanks for   this is great pleasure thanks thanks good to hear  that any Pleasures well thanks so much foreign

Channel: Essentia Foundation

Views: 35,966

Keywords: brain reductionism, materialism, mind-body problem, neuroscience of consciousness, hard problem of consciousness, consciousness and brain, dualism, panpsychism, idealism, conscious agents, Donald Hoffman, spacetime is a headset, spacetime, virtual reality, simulation theory, reality as simulation

Id: -5Q8kbsrE9o

Length: 100min 12sec (6012 seconds)

Published: Sun Nov 06 2022