Soul Surgery Podcast Episode 6: Break Free of Any Addiction with Dr Gabor Maté

welcome to the soul surgery podcast and i am beyond excited to share with you the next episode where i get to sit with an incredibly wise and smart and deep and soulful and powerful human being he has helped thousands and thousands of people all over the world and continues to help by sharing his wisdom and his teachings in public speaking and books and through his courses and just seems to be able to offer healing to everyone who comes in his path and i was lucky enough to have been able to spend two weeks with him in the jungle in peru last year on a really powerful alignment retreat so in the next episode i am sitting with the incredible dr garba mate dr gabo marte is a renowned speaker and best-selling author and he is highly sought after for his expertise in topics including addiction stress and how stress creates illness and impacts our health and also childhood development and in this episode we are speaking on a topic that is exceptionally dear to my heart from a personal standpoint because i personally had to go through the journey that we speak about in this episode so we are speaking about breaking free of addiction by healing childhood trauma gabor his whole practice and work and discoveries you know very much shared from his book in the realm of hungry ghosts about addiction is that addiction is not this disease this life sentence that that we carry and can be unhealed and we carry it for the rest of our life we're kind of stuck with it this is it i'm an addict and and now i have to learn how to just be with it and and kind of survive with this thing called addiction and garble discovered in his in his research that at the root of every single addict he'd ever met there was childhood trauma and emotional pain and so we dive deeply in this episode at what is the root of addiction and and how addiction is not just you know the heroin addicts and the people who are drunks and but that it is rifled through our western living today and we speak about the path of healing and how we can heal it is something that we can heal so without further ado i i cannot wait for you to hear this if if you have any big insights or aha moments or shifts while you're listening to this episode please do get in touch with me like let me know where in the episode it impacted you and how it impacted you and how that's impacted your life because i love to hear from you and i just love to hear your healing and of course if this episode resonates with you and and helps you in any way please do share it with others share it far and wide for anyone that you think it will help and if you love this podcast please subscribe and leave a review reviews matter because when you leave a review then we can spread the word and this podcast can spread to more and more people and help more and more people along the way so i'm very grateful to you if that is something that calls to you so enough of my talking let's go straight to the episode with gaba mate hi gabor welcome to the soul surgery podcast it's so good to see you it's been about over a year yeah over a year and i was just saying i was just reflecting before i came on to meet with you today that the last time i saw you we were sitting in a maloca in the amazon um having just finished a two-week alignment retreat and yeah i i kind of feel like we were getting prepared for what was about to unfold in the world yeah it felt like training almost but it's really really good to see you um how are you how have you i mean you're in the midst of a book so well i'm sort of the tail end of the book but um the book has gone on longer than i expected it to both in the sense of the time and also in terms of the length and i have to really reign it in bring it under control finish it in the next few weeks and so i generate a lot of pressure on myself around that but at the same time you know i'm confident that i've got some good material to work with and to and to shape into something worthwhile once i'm done with it yes i i also wrote a book during this time in the world and my teacher said to me you know writing a book i mean you know this because you've written so many but for me he was like writing a book is like mining for diamonds and i didn't realize that at the time it just for so long you're kind of just dusting earth and dusting earth and dusting earth and then somehow something gets shaped and this diamond well well you know michelangelo they uh they are the the artist um he apparently talked about sculptures taking this huge piece of rock and just cutting away at it until the figure of david or whoever he was sculpting would emerge from it you know like it's in there you used to cut away all the rock and that's that's what it feels like a lot oh and actually that's so aligned with what we're going to be talking about today you know this this beautiful piece of art that gets to emerge when we cut away all the rock and you know the topic of today is is healing from addiction you know from through childhood trauma and you know i i i firstly i want to thank you for your research and your teachings on this topic um coming from a fellow addict still healing addict when i heard your teachings you know in the realm of hunger ghosts that you know at the root of addiction was childhood trauma and that it can be healed rather than it was this disease that i had that i was imprisoned by for the rest of my life that i just had to get used to it it changed everything it changed the perception of everything so you know how did you come to your how did you come to these learnings how did you come to these insights about it being childhood trauma at the root of addiction well really uh it's not a difficult uh pathway because all you have to do is ask anybody whatever they're addicted to so let's start with you okay so i'm not gonna i'm not gonna ask you you can share if you want but i'm not gonna ask you to divulge what you're addicted to but you've you've just said that you've had some kind of addictive behavior right so the question then is not what's wrong with it but what did it do for you like whatever it was what what did it give you in the short term well actually when i read that part of your book when you said i don't ever ask what anyone's addicted to or how long they've been addicted for but i asked them what did it give you what did what did it what did you get from it and it moved me to tears when i think about my constant chasing for the next high when i think about the drugs that i took the specific drugs that i took it was always connection i wanted this heart connection i wanted to feel like i belonged somewhere okay [Music] so wanting heart connection is that a good thing or a bad thing no it's a wonderful thing and actually that's what i realized it was like oh you know that's such a beautiful human need that's exactly what it is it's a need so then the question is what given that we're born in the world without need and we have this what's called neural expectation our nervous system expects that need to be met yes then what happened to you or to anybody that that need was frustrated so that now you have to seek it through this alternative behavior so so just by asking what the addiction does for somebody whether it's sex or gambling or drugs or whatever it is and then say well okay so you're looking for that quality of connection or or communality or pain relief or excitement or joy in the world or playfulness or control mastery whatever you're looking for how did you lose it what happened so something happened so then trauma comes up right away it's that simple yes no no having said all that there's also all the research linking trauma to i wasn't you know quite apart from my own insights there's all this research linking trauma to uh addictive behaviors in adulthood and and also we also have all the research about how the brain develops and how the circuits like there's a certain circuit in the brain which has been called seeking which is the looking for something the excitement it's it runs on dopamine well what we know just as there's a circuit for you know for love and connection you know which runs on opiates and and oxytocin and so now we now know that that the brain circuits develop in interaction with the environment so when somebody is lacking that particular that system is not activated so they have to go turn to an addiction but what happened to them what happened to their brains when they were growing up and again you come back to stress and trauma so all roots all roots whether you look through the brain physiology or the psychology of it or just the emotional needs they all go back to trauma well i mean when you speak a bit about it like that i mean it makes me think firstly i think most people when they think of addiction they'll think of the heroin addict or the guy who wakes up and drinks a bottle of whiskey um certainly even when i was an active addict that's what i would tell myself you know oh i'm not like that right but but actually you know addiction seem is is is everywhere it seems to be rife in society today can you give us a definition of what addiction is so the listeners can understand sure so addiction is any is manifested in any behavior that a person finds temporary relief or pressure in and therefore craves but suffers negative consequences or incurs negative consequences to themselves or others in the long term but they don't give it up so pleasure craving relief in the short term negative consequences in the long term inability or refusal to give it up those are the hallmarks of addiction and if you've got any of those if you've got those three you got an addiction yes so it's not whether you drink it's what does it do for you in the short term and what's the long-term impact and do you and are you able to give it up if there's negative impact so if from that perspective it could be alcohol it could be all the drugs the opiates stimulants and so on could be sex gambling shopping food work eating internet cell phones relationships digital media one could just go on television watching even things that are ostensibly good and can be good can be addictive depending on your relationship to it so it's not the external activity it's the internal relationship for example exercise but we all we all agree that exercise is a good thing but if you're but if you're using it to escape from your emotional pain because you can't stand being with yourself or with your family and you're over doing it so that it takes time away from other activities or you're physically hurting yourself and you can't give it up now you've got an addiction even though the behavior if i just saw you riding your bike i said what a great person she's riding their bike and they're getting good aerobic workout well that's true but what's going on on the inside so it's the internal relationship that's what defines the addiction yes and when when i when we hear about it like that you know it completely takes away or it invites the ability to take away the stigma this this this generalization this picture of addiction as this dirty disease as as as the bad guy out there as the one on the street over there and actually starts to open up that it's more intimate it's actually here in our life like right now you actually you speak about dehumanization this judgment of behavior you know we live in a wa in a way where we judge people by behaviors but how often do we look and see the human being the deeper part well and i think part of the or stigmatization is precisely because we fail to look at ourselves or we don't want to so it's very easy to project our loathing of some part of ourselves onto somebody who exhibits it in a more egregious fashion so that that's that the the stereotypical image of the drug addict becomes a very convenient container for stuff that we don't particularly like about ourselves yes it feels like that's happening a lot at the moment in our world today don't you think well it is and and and um you know it's interesting like the studies that um show that when we look at people that we don't recognize as ourselves our sense of disgust becomes greater the circuit the the the the circuits in the brain that that manifests discuss become activated where if we saw the same behavior in somebody that looks like us we wouldn't get the same response so these are deeply s deeply um ingrained human dynamics but it all comes down to um whether we're looking at whether we're willing to look at ourselves honestly or not because if we are when i worked with highly addicted clientele in vancouver and british columbia here honest to god nikki i in 12 years i didn't meet anybody who in whom i didn't recognize myself to one degree another now they manifested it to higher degrees they suffered they suffered more than i have and they're not as class privileged or or racially privileged sometimes as i am but the dynamics you know repeated behaviors that don't do you any good refusal to look at reality lying um lying to yourself and to others oh there's nothing about them that i didn't exhibit to a high degree and then the question becomes who's more culpable me this privileged middle class person with good income and all kinds of support or these isolated people highly traumatized who have been just ground down since early childhood who's more culpable but who does society exact the highest price from from then yes you know so that's just how it works so you know there's compassion which i know is an absolute the heart of your work the ability to have compassion and bring compassion to to addiction and and really it's bringing compassion to the trauma and it feels like that actually compassion like the painting or the the art it emerges the more that we can heal in ourselves it becomes more available well that's exactly right and that's what i find is that when people heal they are in fact you know what the common experience i used to have when i was working with this highly addictive population is people would say to me doc if i ever get through this i'm going to spend the rest of life my life making sure that other people don't have to suffer like the way i suffered so that's one of the reasons why i got into the work i do too it's just like to be able to help those who have suffered the way we i've suffered yeah so can you give us can you give us an explanation or teaching of what trauma is yeah so again some people think of trauma as really awful things happening beings violence in a family parents highly addicted sexual abuse emotional abuse severe neglect and yes those events are traumatic but that's not how i define trauma itself um trauma if you look at the word origin comes from a greek word meaning wound trauma is a wounding so no when you metaphorically when you think of a wound or even practically what can happen to a wound um it can stay open and then every time you touch it it just really hurts so a lot of his so these trigger points that we all have you know when you get triggered what's happening is some wound is being touched where it's very sensitive so that's one thing that can happen the other thing going to happen in in wounding is that you can develop a scar over at scar tissue now what's the nature of scar tissue it's thick it's hard it doesn't have nerve endings in it so it doesn't feel and it's not flexible so then we can and so in trauma then to go with the analogy of these two responses to wounding we can be very sensitive and hyper reactive over some things or at the same time we can develop a kind of hardness a lack of flexibility um an impenetrability where we no longer feel what's going on so both of these things are our responses to wounding and so trauma to me is not what happens to you but what happens inside you is a result of what happens to you so the the primary thing that happens when a child is wounded continually is um it's all adaptive so you disconnect from yourself that this connection is adaptive it it it allows you from feeling pain it also gets you into trouble later on because now you no longer know who you are what you feel and so on but but that disconnect is adaptive um so there's a disconnection from yourself um you develop a world view that is informed by trauma so when the child is being wounded what what assumption can they make about the world that it's a hostile fearful place to be so people who are traumatized that's how they grow up then they get to be president of the united states you know believing that the world is a hostile horrible place which is exactly what he said he said the world is a horrible place he said um where you can't trust your fans everybody's after your goods and your wife and you know even your friends never mind your enemies he said this this guy runs the strongest country the biggest country in the world not the biggest most powerful country in the world and we know now how traumatized he was as a child you know recent drug i mean i've always known it but there's recent revelations that have made it really clear so you do so you disconnect from yourself you develop a negative worldview um you your relationship to other people is deranged because either you shut down your gut feelings in which case you might end up in relationships that are really hurtful and there's nothing to warn you or you become so scared of relationships that you don't open yourself up to intimacy at all either way you you suffer um and trauma of course there's also the impact on the brain that i've already talked about brain development is discarded um what else eternal but those are the major features i would say so trauma is is not what happens to you but all these responses inside you to what happens to you they become entrenched they become chronic they become um the governing dynamics of your personality yes and then when i hear you say that it becomes so clear you know we add in human need and human nature and and then it it kind of becomes clear why we seek addiction why we seek things we we start seeking seeking seeking what can i find that will protect me or mask something or defend something or or fill something and it just feels like this and what's an endless search but really when i you know at the heart of it when you say it's a disconnection from self it's like we're looking for connection deep connection yeah and that this connection from self it's no small thing because it has all kinds of consequences um physiologically and and and emotionally and you know when you think about it we couldn't have survived if we weren't connected to ourselves in other words human beings as a species like imagine an animal in the wild was disconnected from their own feelings how long did they say wouldn't make a moment they wouldn't so that that disconnection is an artifact of civilized or what we call civilization but for most of our existence we lived out there in the wild really connected actually and so that this disconnect is although it's right through a human history uh from the point of view of human existence it's a very recent thing and we live in a society that magnifies it to the nth degree so it's not just the individual trauma it's also that we live in a society that um actually economically depends on this connection to sell us all these things we don't need yep if we're actually connected who would need all the latest gadgets um it's like we're being seller you know i feel like this is the biggest one of the biggest but it's a big thing that's being highlighted and almost purged through at the moment certainly it's what i'm a big part of what i've been seeing and experiencing this year is just the absolute depth of disconnection that we are that we as a species are living in and and you know i've recently been looking at social media addiction and and really looking at the impact it is having and it has had on me and and and and the depth of it and it's like it's it's celebrating disconnection and emptiness as something that we that we want it's like a seduct it's seductive yeah because it's social media but it actually makes us more asocial and uh facebook you know and it's meant to bring us together they want to look see the technology itself is neutral i mean isn't that wonderful that we have zoom we could have this conversation and gaze at each other across the continents and the oceans you know but again in this society because there's so much pain and disconnection everything gets bent into the service of compensating for what we've lost this is how things get addicted addictive i should say yes so you were born into a jewish family in budapest during the holocaust yeah i i mean how did that impact your life oh not at all i just blew it up i mean i said to myself a little genocide so what you know um look um i mean the levels of healing that has needed to happen i can imagine it just yeah at levels that still need to happen on some level you know um that's on the one hand on the other hand i have to say something here which may seem strange but first of all it's not it doesn't do to compare anybody's suffering to anybody else's secondly yes i had a really difficult first very difficult it doesn't sum it up a horrid first year of life you know my mother the city being bombed the germans deporting jews to auschwitz including my grandparents separation from my mother hunger illness and all that this is the first year in a year and a month of my life huge impact on the one hand on the other hand most of the dynamics that traumatized me were imposed externally on my family and fundamentally i grew up in a functional family my parents my parents were far far from perfect and emotionally they were just not all that astute and there's lots of stuff i could say about what i didn't get having said that uh the people i worked with in the downtown eastside they were actually hurt inside their families um no there's all kinds of historical reasons for that but but the pain was chronic it didn't wasn't restricted to a certain temporal period because of some external uh catastrophe like the war and the genocide but that they lived in families that themselves were so traumatized that they kept traumatizing and re-traumatizing uh their children and so that there was no escape you know like in my family there was a fairly decent holding of us not that my parents didn't know how to hold me emotionally all that well but we knew we were loved and and and and they really would have done anything for us and and you know there was stability a lot of people don't have that so even though externally my initial circumstances were um unspeakably terrible through the trajectory of my development i did have a holding space you know where i was loved and respected you know a lot of people don't have that benefit can't just look at somebody's external circumstances you actually look at what's happening inside the family that's what matters yes you know when i think back to my the beginning days of my addiction yeah and you know the big at the beginning it really is just like basic like don't drink don't take drugs uh you know uh try look at behavior but after many years i i'd been in recovery for nine years and i i had been sober and clean from drugs for nine years and i i was i would sit there and you know i would hear things like you know once an addict always an addict yeah and i and something in my i don't know whether it was my soul or my heart or something just was like this doesn't feel right this doesn't feel right and it and it i actually had an amazing therapist at the time who encouraged me to question the system that i had been in and the the conditioning that i was in and and because of that i started to dig deeper and deeper and i could see you know i you know even to the tiniest n tiniest things i i had this caffeine addiction and i started to realize that even the way that i had my coffee it was so milky and sweet it was like my mother's breast like i wasn't breastfed like it literally and i couldn't give it up it didn't matter how how good i was being or how much i was meditating it there was something about this way that i drank it that just gave me something and i was there but but nikki was there something wrong with it did it cause you harm sorry did it cause you no no but that was the that was the moment when i realized this this isn't this isn't an illness like this like i could actually feel the mother's milk yeah from it that i was having in it and and so i guess what i want people listening you know to this episode like how firstly how can they begin healing how can they begin the healing of this well see inside the world of um the usual addiction recovery programs the medical model and the 12-step methods and i have a lot of good things to say about the 12 steps but i think they missed something inside inside the ideology that this is a disease that you're inherited and you can have it for the rest of your life it makes sense once an addict always an addict inside the trauma model it doesn't make any sense anymore once you understand that addiction is a response to trauma why should you remain an addict if you heal the trauma yes so in programs whose only purpose is or his main purpose is to stop you using or engaging in a certain behavior but nothing happens to transform the person it's certainly true that there's always this risk of relapse because because you haven't healed the underlying wound and so in that world it makes sense once an addict always an addict but that's that's only because they don't get that underneath the addiction there's something deeper yes and if you heal that well why should you remain an addict now you know it's certainly true that these habits are deeply ingrained in house and they have to do with brain circuits programming childhood so if anybody's any doubt don't play with it you know like if you if you've been an alcoholic and you know you think it may have healed but you might not want to try it just to find out you know but in theory and i know a lot of people who have you know who they can have a drink that doesn't send them into a spiral but more to the point is that that it always look at it always depends on what lens you're looking through if you're looking through the lens of chronic disease then what happens to chronic diseases you you get better and then you relapse you get remission and relapse by the way i have a lot to say about chronic disease as well and and i see most of them as trauma based as well and and and it's not necessary that even in physical illnesses many of them that you have to have these chronic relapses you know but that's a whole other discussion my contradiction though which is so clearly a trauma response well if you feel the trauma um [Music] why would you even want to have a drink yes like if you actually uh present in your body and comfortable with it and it at ease and it touches some joy of life why you know okay see like the glass of wine or maybe but you don't need it you know so no it's not true that once an addict always an addict although it is true inside the treatment model that's usually employed yes and so are you saying that addiction can be healed by healing childhood trauma well um trauma can be healed yes and addiction is a symptom addiction is a symptom so you know um addiction is a symptom it's it's it's it's it's a sign of something you know that of a unmet internal need and an unfulfilled internal development that's the prediction is so that need is met if that development takes place there's no addiction yes you know i i really can vouch for this i i don't i can have a drink every now and then but i don't really think about it anymore and it's really not an issue in my life and and i don't the the thought of putting drugs in my body is just not something i would ever want to do again it doesn't it feels so destructive and and so i really can vouch for that and actually even after coming back from the jungle when we did that that retreat you know i had such a core point of trauma healed in that jungle like when i was in the womb moment in time and since coming back to that i really started to look at my work addiction and this kind of striving and achieving and pushing addiction and and even now that's become very that almost feels violent in my life when i go there and it can still be a pull of course but i'm really seeing you know the more that we heal and more we come home or more we come back to this wholeness or we heal the disconnection these desires all these the need to do it does seem to dissolve i must say that one of the problems is systemic in that the average addiction counselor the average physician the average psychiatrist never gets this perspective it's not part of their training uh they're trained in a very narrow kind of way and and uh so that i mean you've had the good fortune to have these insights but also have some support in deepening these insights and applying them to yourself yes a lot of people might have a similar insight but nothing in their environment will support them yes because they'll go to their meetings where they're told you've got this chronic disease or they'll go to a physician or you've got this chronic disease and let's manage it you know so much depends on people actually trusting their own process and then finding the support for it um no you know there's again um i think the 12 steps have you done it 12 steps i did yes i was in 12 step for nearly 10 years and you'll probably agree with me that the steps in themselves are wonderful deeply powerful spiritual process i i did it three times and very very healing um for anybody addictions are not i would say you know for any human being yeah if any human being i'm not in any way here to devalue their benefits but i wish they'd get straight on this trauma business yes which which is largely missing uh you know i know it comes into it here or there but it it's not it should be a front and center yes so i'm gonna finish with one and it's kind of a big question you know when we look at where we are today in the world the leaders seem to be deeply traumatic and then the system that is then created for us to be functioning in um is feeding coming from a place of trauma and feeding disconnection and now we are really being faced with the insanity and ice and i'm seeing certainly in the work that i'm doing with clients i'm seeing people waking up or even you said trust having these moments of of something in them going hold on something's not right something's not right about the way i've been living and and starting to listen to that and so you know when you look at where we are today firstly do you see a solution i know it's a begin yeah no no it's just such a complex question first of all funny you should begin your statement with traumatized leaders because i'm just writing a chapter on on traumatized leaders and um do you know if i jump up for a minute i'll be right back is that okay please yeah no go go only because this is the uh this is the chapter i'm working on right now so the name of your new book are we allowed to say it oh yeah yeah it's called the myth of normal illness and health and an insane culture and it'll be published in a year also including in the uk but anyway in terms of traumatized leaders this is um this is let me just quote from this what i've just written okay sure lucky us there's no understanding of macro level social dynamics without appreciating the intersectionality of the personal and the political each mingles with and informs the other here too trauma is a major influence although one almost commonly overlooked in common discourse although no systemic issue can be reduced to the subjectivity and personal history of individuals a powerful motive force impelling the collective dysfunction is the psychic woundedness of politicians interacting with populations unaware of the trauma and their leaders as in themselves and then i quote this british psychotherapist sue gerhart who says we rarely address the underlying psychological and emotional dynamics of our public figures or our culture as a whole rights to british psychotherapist sue gerhardt public commentary is usually restricted to economic or political analysis together with a sprinkle of gossip and then i say yet and yet what leaders believe about the world and about their position in it as well as the unconscious impulses that drive their actions are deeply influenced by their formative experiences horror public figures behave in positions of leadership as well as the politics they espoused are influenced by the moral framework they themselves acquired in infancy says sue gerhart so whoever looks at the trauma of politicians when it when when uh when when margaret thatcher says there's no such thing as society which is what she said what is she saying she's saying i'm completely alone there's nobody there for me she's giving me her life history you know when when donald trump uh says that the world is a horrible place as i stated before he's saying no they don't know this is what they're saying so they act out their politics they are trauma and the public's fear at the expense of the public but what they're saying is what a terrible life i've had as a child and when we actually look at these people they usually deny childhood they all had wonderful childhoods yes i saw they said and you know i also know putin was also really badly bullied except really really badly bullied as a little boy right and you know he's created a world where he'll never be bullied again right um you know and and and then we as the public are we act like they're the mummies and daddies and they what they say is real and true and yeah and then we follow yeah yeah and we do that because um we're looking for these we never had the penalty figures we wanted so we look we projected onto that we want strong leaders who's gonna probably protect us you know and so it's a combination of individual trauma and then the trauma of the leaders all interacting with the system that feeds all this so so when you say what's the solution um well like on the one hand there's no solution outside of a systemic resolution and nobody can dictate or prescribe that i mean history just happens and and you know at some point we can hope that humanity will wake up that decision isn't working anymore until then i think the so the resolutions are an individual level and on the group level on a communal level and when it comes to politics on the level of people coming together to try to affect change so i can't say that the solution is on one level only but of course what we've got is ourselves and and it it's got to at least begin there and it has to and you know and from that point of view i do have faith in humanity i mean i think inside everybody including even a trump or a putin or boris johnson there there is possibilities of transformation it may not happen but the possibility is always there and of course neither you or i would do the work that i do if we didn't believe in human possibility would we no no and and every day that i get to witness a human being just wake up a little bit more from the lens of trauma that they have been looking from and start to heal it it reminds me every day of that possibility and so what i hear and what you're saying is and i believe this too you know this a solution right now is absolutely let it begin with let it begin with each one of us there's a certain invitation now more than ever for self-responsibility and healing yes and that's all of us to the extent that we have a voice and a platform speak about the truth that we see yes oh gobble it's wonderful to see you again um you know you brought me out to the jungle last year and i want to thank you for that it was that's not how it worked no that's not how it worked out my work that is that you brought me out to the jungle because right because because i needed the healing you know but anyway let's say we brought each other to the jungle okay we brought each other to the jungle and or maybe the jungle brought us maybe the jungle brought us there and you know it was it was the beginning of a profoundly healing phase of life for me and i'm still in that and i just i the power of healing is beyond what we can imagine just when we think we've healed and and we if we're lucky enough to get a little bit more it's like it's it's like coming home it's such a gift so thank you to the jungle for bringing us both it's so wonderful to see you and i can't wait to read this book coming out can you give us the name again it'll be called the myth of nor it's called the myth of normal illness and health and an insane culture and believe me the impatience with which you awaited is nothing like the impatience with the dry weight getting it done i get it i get it i get it i get it it's like pulling your hair out labor i didn't get that could you try again oh sorry that was my computer telling me something it's no problem oh thank you computer nice to have a friend again is that your imaginary friend yeah she talks to me doesn't she okay well thank you very much gubbel for coming on to soul surgery it's wonderful to see you again and i cannot wait to read this book the title the subject the everything is what is needed right now the myth of normal what's the second part the myth of normal illness and health in an insane culture illness and health in an insane culture thank you so much for sharing your time with us thank you nikki you

Channel: Nicky Clinch

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Length: 51min 35sec (3095 seconds)

Published: Wed Nov 04 2020