Significations of the Twelve Houses - Part 1: Houses 1–6

hi my name is Chris Brennan and you're listening to the astrology podcast today is Wednesday November 20th 2019 starting at exactly 508 p.m. in Denver Colorado and this is the three hundred and thirty first episode of the show in this episode I'm going to be talking with astrologers Kellie Surtees and Austin Copic about the significance of the twelve houses and this is planned to be part one in our series of the houses so we're going to cover houses one through six today and then in the next episode we'll do houses seven through twelve so hey how's it going guys hi Hey thank you for joining me in the studio today it's a different experience it's very good yes so it's a little a little tricky getting everything together this is our first recording you guys Kelly you flew out from Belgium and Austin you flew in from Oregon mm-hmm and we are recording our first episode in person not ever yeah and the student first time you guys have been I think yeah right yeah so this is exciting and we're going to we're not going to do an easy episode we're going to tackle one that we've been meaning to do for a long time that's going to be kind of a lot of work but it's going to be one of our more important episodes and it's gonna be good to have have it recorded here in person we've been promising it for a while right alright so we're going to talk about the significance of the twelve houses today we've planned this out surprisingly little in terms of like actual planning for what we wanted to say but I know each of us has taught the houses so many times that this is really something any of the three of us could do in our sleep at this point and that's part of what we're shooting for is not a fully casual discussion but a discussion between three practitioners that have been doing this for a couple of decades about what the meanings of the twelve houses are that's accessible not just for beginners but also with something for intermediate and advanced students as well yeah it's such an important topic and I think the more that you know about the houses the better your astrology is overall and so yeah we've all been teaching on this material for a while and adding to our own understanding of it so it's gonna be good to pop it out there and complete I guess those three foundational subjects because we've done planets and signs already I think that we have yeah yeah and that was a very popular that's actually my most popular YouTube video right now I just looked it up last night part two of our hour signs of the zodiac series has like 60 or 70 thousand views so yeah so we're gonna be this is like a continuation of that series with we've done the planets that was actually the first one we did was the signification x' of the seven traditional planets like two or three years ago then we did the signs of the zodiac and now the next major part of the system is the twelve houses yeah yeah alright so preliminary stuff to get out of the way there's conceptual stuff that we should we could touch on but there's also practical things like house division I did a episode I guess it was last month on how the different forms of house division came about but for the most part the basic central premise of that was that whole sign houses seems to have been the most popular system of house division originally but then the Hellenistic astrologers were also using equal houses and quadrant houses as a secondary overlay in order to judge when planets were more active or more prominent in a chart but in terms of house division I primarily use whole sign houses is that what you guys use primarily at this point as well yeah I do yeah I use whole sign houses with the position of the Midheaven and the I see taken into consideration yes the Midheaven is so important so yeah that coming into coming into in a huge way but in terms of topics I mean that's the cool thing I think is knowing the right topics to associate with the house right even if you might be using a different house system yeah well and the even though there are a couple different systems for dividing the circle the rationale behind houses is very similar for all of them like there's there are cadent houses and angular houses in every house system yes you know I also use the Indian hole sign system and again the it's a hole sign 12 houses well a system right yeah and I just you were saying earlier it's important I would say that there's no real astrology without houses you can look at the nature of influences or the you know the nature of configurations with planets and signs but if you don't know where to look for them in the life then it's very difficult to do astrology yeah you know houses tell us like so I don't know let's say we have some wonderful like Moon Jupiter conjunction and cancer right yeah well is that in a person's 11th house like Kurt Cobain and so they have an amazingly devoted loving audience is it in a person's first house right so they're just like this giant ball of cuddly wisdom right or is it you know is it in their fourth was it their mom yeah that had that me that that brought that like yeah and so locate you know knowing the difference between is this configuration someone's mom is it their audience is it their job is it them financial is it health it's huge it's hugely practical yeah right so that's one of the things is that houses show topics or areas of life as well as other people in the person's life in general yes that's one of the primary like roles or purposes from a technical standpoint of the 12 houses yeah we're we're we're in the life doesn't land and I think houses do a really good job of underscoring that the chart is about the unit the essential the fundamental unit of analysis in a chart is a life yes rate it's not just the part of the life that you identify with yeah there are houses for that there are also parts are there also houses for that seems like not me at all yeah right that's in my life but it's not me personally exactly yeah so the houses give you such a holistic overview and it's so wonderful really that you can describe another person in your life this is what your parent was like what this is what your relationship with siblings is like or relationship with boss or coworkers and and all that comes from knowing where to find those people all those parts of your life via the birth chart by their houses absolutely just watch your hand it's like in the way of the camera just getting used to out all right home out particular at location it's like being in a new house right now yeah and I'm still getting used to it as well okay so houses show topics or areas of a person's life is one of the things that they do yeah they can also show other things that the houses do is they can show whether a planet is functioning well or if planet is functioning poorly or in other words another way of framing that might be if in some traditions they frame it as a planet is let's say auspiciously placed in the person's chart versus an inauspicious or a less auspicious placement in terms of the ability of the planet to function in the person's life and produce the significations that it wants to produce versus being in some houses where it has a little bit more difficulty producing things in a way that is just obviously favorable or good for the native them yeah absolutely and that's that reminds me of what I think is one of the most important things to learn about houses when you're coming from the signs to the houses is the signs there's no the signs are not there are not good and bad signs where where is there apparently more powerful and more favorable houses and inherently way way rougher yes houses it you know it's I don't know it's like a it's like a city like some real estate is worth ten times what real estate ten miles over is like that is such a good point that you made there Austin that there are no good or bad signs like every sign has positive and negative qualities to it but inherently none of them are kind of challenging or difficult but there are at least two and you know certain authors would argue three or four houses that are problematic and so it's good to understand those distinctions yeah and that's what Chris was saying like if if a planet is in one of the best pieces of real estate in the chart that planet regardless of whether it's happy in its sign or not has a lot of power and a lot of input and then there are some there are some houses where even if the planet is in its exaltation and it's got shrines from friendly planets very supported its gonna have kind of a rough go of it still stuck and so I guess the houses then are also aware of qualifying the acting power if you like of a planet you know in terms of assessing its condition or its ability to do its thing yeah right yes probably the most single important factor in assessing accidental dignity yeah so in just to summarize that briefly generally speaking the traditional doctrine on this is that the houses that aspect the rising sign through a major aspect are the ones that tend to be more positive or more easier whereas the houses that do not aspect the rising sign are the ones that tend to be a little bit more challenging or have outcomes that tend to be a little bit more difficult in terms of the planets ability to manifest some of its more positive significations so the breakdown is usually that the sixth eighth and twelfth tend to be the so-called bad houses or the negative houses or the challenging houses and the other houses in varying degrees of like positivity tend to be the more favorable houses yeah mm-hmm okay yeah let's see other conceptual structures built into the houses are the concept of angularity and the idea of the so called angular triads so the foundation of that of course is the for angular houses which are the first house the fourth house the seventh house and the tenth house yeah right mm-hmm okay and there's a favorite this everything is ranked and graded right there are a lot of ranking grading systems there are a lot of ranking graces but most people would say well I think all systems say the first house is the most person no well so you get you get disagreement I would say pretty even on both sides between which is best first or tenth right it's always first in tenth right and one in two slots yeah but let's just I'd like to pause for a second on the for angular houses because okay one they are angular houses are more powerful and speed to part of the way I teach it is the for angular houses or what you use to answer the four basic questions you would have about a person's life first house I don't know what are they like seventh house who are with yeah 4th house where are they from tenth house what do they do yeah and so and then those four anchor a triad each which is what you were leading to I just wanted to get that in there yeah right that the four houses that the four angles anchor all of the rest of the significations in the houses yeah and the breakdown way I usually do for that is let me see if we can throw up a diagram actually of just a this is a poster actually we're releasing this here on the significations of the houses which largely follows traditional significations although it has a few more modern significations i think but usually the breakdown i do is like first house is the self it's where you find that the native or the persons whose birth chart it is the seventh house represents the other in their life which can represent partnerships the fourth house represent or the tenth house represents their public life whereas the fourth house represents their private life and this is actually partially tied into a cycle that was connected and used to some extent in the Egyptian tradition that I think you mentioned to me last night Kelly which was the the diurnal rotation and its connection with the angles yeah yeah they had this beautiful philosophy you know of course things coming up you know on the eastern horizon is is life and and births and beginnings and then when a planets more when the Sun reaches that sort of 10th house position and we mark that as the Midheaven and they can often be different but yeah that's the height of the the sun's brightness so that think about tenth houses like most visible highest-profile part of the charge and then the west of course is the setting which they did associate actually with things like death and and dying and it's interesting how we have relationships in there today which we could explore from a philosophical perspective but that's obviously like the setting point and then the fourth house you know when students are struggling to understand that think about it as the midnight position you know you're at home you're with your family you're in the more private intimate parts of your life the stuff that you've probably escaped is gonna say you wouldn't share with others but maybe in the world of Instagram you do share some of it but you still probably don't share all right and when a planet is in the fourth relative to your to where you are you would look down to find it yeah so you're either it's either see they're supporting you or dragging you down but it's acting from below you from that subterranean underneath the subterranean pivot yes the subterranean pivot is technical to him it's my new metal band love it yeah so so that's a really good point so just in order to frame the astronomy of the houses and four angles the first house and the ascendant is roughly located and associated with the eastern horizon which is where the Sun rises in the morning each day yeah and then the tenth house is associated with roughly that which is immediately overhead in the middle of the sky when the Sun is roughly at noon let's just say approximately or in the middle of the day yeah the day right and then the seventh house and the descendant is associated with where the Sun sets in the west each day mm-hm and then the I see in the fourth house are associated with where the Sun is at midnight yeah the dark earth kind of point of night right yeah so that's that's one there's because there's two motions and this often confuses people let me start learning the houses and that's called the diurnal rotation which is the Sun rising in the east and then culminating overhead and then setting in the west and then hitting the anti culmination or the IC or the subterraneous point around midnight but all of the planets follow a similar motion at different rates it's not just the Sun that does that but all of the planets will rise and culminate and set in and it culminate at different points during the course of a day mm-hmm so that motion though is roughly if you looked at it as a chart like let's pull up a chart really quickly is roughly like clockwise basically right yep yeah whereas all the planets in their courses move counterclockwise yeah so let me back it up let's use today as an example and I'll back it up to sunrise so this is using whole sign houses but the Sun is currently in Scorpio so that means this morning when the Sun reached the ascendant it rose over the eastern horizon so here we have Scorpio the ascendance in Scorpio so Scorpio is the quote-unquote rising sign and using whole sign houses at least Scorpio is the first house so the Sun will then if you just sort of like animate the chart the Sun will eventually rise over the horizon over the ascendant and that sunrise is basically and then eventually the Sun keeps moving and and starts moving upwards over the course of the next several hours as it moves through the houses until eventually it hits the top part of the chart and hits the Midheaven and that's around the time let's say roughly it's hitting the tenth house and there's a little bit of ambiguity here of course there's a little bit of problem as we're discussing this of course because we are sort of alternating back and forth between discussing it within the context of like whole sign houses versus quadrant houses and needing to sort of blend those two vantage points which is a little tricky right yeah I think it's the difference between the MSA in the tenth house that the end song yeah yeah that the tenth sign if you like around from the ascendant the Midheaven itself will mark the degree of that sun's culmination but it may not sit in the tenth sign or the tenth hole sign house right even though both the tenth house and the mid heaven will have a couple of crossover significations if they're not in the same sign right yeah and that's something people get very confused with when they first come to hold sign houses yeah and that's going to be tricky and I'm we're gonna try to balance both as we're doing this but just keep in mind that difference and yeah but they are two things and definitely check out that previous episode on the origins of the different forms of house division where I have a more detailed breakdown but you have the different approaches yeah all right so back to that so middle of the day the Sun hits the 10th house 10th hole sign house let's say or hits the Midheaven and that's when it's roughly in the tenth sign or 10th house then it keeps going and eventually the Sun hits the descendant in the seventh hole sign house later around sunset and as soon as the Sun hits the descendant the Sun moves underneath the horizon and sinks underneath the horizon and actually in ancient Helens too astrology they called the seventh house the setting place or the sinking place because that's literally where the Sun sets or sinks underneath the horizon each day as opposed to the rising sign which is where the Sun rises over the horizon each day yeah and the ancient Egyptians had their whole philosophy about the planets sinking over the horizon going into the underworld and kind of being in the underworld space and then when they see them rise he said the the the Sun coming up over the ascendant every morning had that magical like sort of quality of rebirth or the light it's maybe stronger than we might think today because light is view differently sure well and to be clear even though the Sun is by far the most visible thing that rises and sets you can watch every visible planet yeah rise in the east and set in the West yeah as long as it especially if it's like nighttime like for example in this chart we can see about an hour or so after sunset where the Sun is in the sixth house in Scorpio we see the decent is at 19 degrees of Sagittarius and Venus and Jupiter right there at 23 and 27 Sagittarius and they're just getting ready to set and move underneath the descendant which means if you went outside and looked west you would see these two bright white twinkling stars set under the horizon over the course of like a I don't know a half hour or something like that yeah yeah they're there and then they're not yeah okay so the Sun sets at the seventh house and the descendant and then eventually moves into the sixth house and then the fifth house and then eventually once it hits the fourth house and I see we have the sort of halfway through the night or the midnight part of the day as it's going through the fourth house and then eventually the Sun moves to the third then the second and then it hits the first house and it rises again the next morning and that's one complete sort of diurnal rotation of the Sun but you can see that as we're animating this chart it's not just the Sun that is moving and rising and culminating and setting and anti culminating but also the other planets do the same thing and that's the fundamental basis of the houses the houses start with those for angular houses because those are the four sectors of the chart that have a very clear astronomical basis in being based on either rising of the eastern horizon culminating up overhead during mid-day setting in the evening or hitting the anti culmination or the midnight point halfway through the night and it's worth noting that for people who are newer to houses every planet spends time in all 12 houses every day every day that's not like signs no that's that's very good and that's to do with the Earth's rotation right yeah so all of that being said so in terms of the diagonal rotation where we have that movement where if you put it on a chart it looks like a clockwise movement yeah there's also a secondary movement and that's actually the movement which is the movement of the planets through the signs of the zodiac and when you put that in a chart that movement goes counterclockwise and that's actually the order in which we sort of number the houses 1 through 12 yeah so sometimes that trips people up right because throughout the day the Sun does 12 11 10 9 8 7 6 whereas if if you watch the Sun move through your chart that's route a year yeah it's gonna do 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 etc right so back to our sort of diagram this is the 12 houses and yeah so it starts out where and the eastern horizon the sect the sector associated with the ascendant is associated with the first house and then if you go downwards the next house after that is the second house then the third house then the fourth house is the the IC or the subterranean point the the Midheaven or midnight point mm-hmm the fifth house comes after that then the sixth house the seventh house is associated with the setting or the descendant then the eighth house ninth house 10th house associated with the Midheaven or the culmination 11th house and then finally the 12th house is the last of the twelve houses so that's the basic sort of structure that everybody encounters when they first start learning astrology in terms of the twelve houses and the next step is the next question that immediately becomes what do those twelve houses mean what do those twelve segments or sectors of the chart actually mean when you're interpreting them especially in a person's birth chart or when especially when you're looking at planets placed in each of the twelve houses what what do those mean yeah and I think there's a couple of distinctions to make to I mean the houses basically create the framework or the structure of every astrological birth chart so once you have an understanding of the topics of the houses then you can apply that to all charts now how you interpret the topics and the meaning of each topic is different from chart to chart based on the planets and the signs associated with each house but it's good to understand that that framework of those twelve houses that particular order it is in every single birth chart it's consistent basically right so one of the sectors for example that we'll talk a lot about in part two is the tenth house representing career mmm-hmm but depending on what planets you have in your tenth house or associated with the tenth house or other things like that different people are gonna have different predispositions towards different types of careers based on those placements totally yeah so you look at you look if you want to answer the question about career one of the places you go is the tenth house but how you answer that in terms of goes in this direction or that direction is different for every chart and that's where the magic of astrology comes in right yeah in terms of other preliminary conceptual structures that we need to touch on I think there's two that we need to address one of them is the modern conceptualization of signs equals houses and the second conceptualization is the older idea of the planetary Joy's as being one of the ways that significations are derived from the houses maybe which one should we touch on first like I'm trying to decide which it would be easier to start with should we start with kind of dismissing the signs equals houses thing and explaining why even though people at this point why they may immediately encounter that why it might not be the most useful thing to use or should we focus instead on the joys I think my feeling is to start with the first option of sort of the house sign thing because once we get into the joys we can then probably segue into the topics okay a little bit from there unless you guys have a different preference I'm fine with that okay so starting point for that is as I said the [ __ ] the the the starting point for the houses is the four angles before angular houses one four seven and ten and those are the basis of the houses because they have like immediate astronomical properties that the fact that the Sun and the other planets rise over the horizon in the first house or that they set and sink under the earth in the seventh house or that the in the tenth house the planets are at their highest and most visible part of the chart so they're the most evident and then therefore astrologers draw symbolic interpretations for that and say well this is where the native will be the most eminent in their life or this is where the natives reputation will be seen or their public life will be seen through the tenth house because symbolically that's where the planets are at their most visible and then conversely at the fourth house the planets are at their most hidden because that's the mid night position and therefore the fourth house is said to represent the natives private life in their home life and family and things like that things that are private and therefore opposite to the 10th house significations of your reputation and your public visibility in your career so right there we can see part of the basic significations of the houses coming from just the astronomical properties of where are these houses located relative to the perspective of the observer and what might that mean symbolically and that's one method in which I think the significance of the houses were originally developed yeah so over the centuries astrologers have come up with different rationales though for assigning significations to different houses one of the more recent ones that's becoming extremely popular in modern times although it's a relatively recent invention is to associate the first house because it's the first of the twelve houses with what is thought to be the first sign of the zodiac which is Aries and then to associate the second sign of the zodiac which is Taurus with the second house second to the twelve houses which is the second house and so on and so forth so Gemini to the third house in cancer to the fourth and so on and so forth so this is a very widespread and pervasive conceptual structure that's been adopted in the past few decades in modern astrology but one of the surprising things that's happened during the traditional movement over the course of the past 20 or 30 years once astrologers went back and started translating ancient texts is that we actually discovered that that conceptual model doesn't seem to have been used hardly at all and and doesn't even seem to have been a concept until relatively recently in the the long history of astrology like maybe the last hundred years well Suzanne Allen layer thing or a little bit later what happens is that you can see traces of it like Lilly mentions it's sort of in passing but he doesn't really seem to use it way back in like the you know 16th 7th 17th century yeah but then when it gets to modern times you have those early 28th 19th and early 20th century astrologers like William like Allen leo drawing on earlier texts like Lily where they saw that and they assumed that that was a core conceptual structure for the houses so they just started running with it and then it accelerates really fast because if you look at Allen Leo he's still not using it as much as he could but then when you get the generation of astrologers that came in in 1960s and 70s and hades they really went to town with it and it became their primary conceptual structure for understanding what the significations of the houses are and it's sort of super started to supersede almost all other approaches to understanding the houses so it's relatively recent in the past few decades basically doesn't work very well yeah I was gonna say my astrology go so much better when I stopped doing it that way yeah I remember when I stopped doing it the houses actually started working they deal I was like oh my god you mean the fourth house can actually tell me about someone's family and origins yes no cancer stuff yeah it's it's an oversimplification it is I would go so far to say it's a gross oversimplification yeah it's an oversimplification to the point that you're going to make you're gonna make huge errors yes if you're using that and by errors I mean inaccurate delineations yes where you sit down with the person you say okay I'm going to do any of your family based on this idea versus taking the fourth house as as the fourth house rather than a mirror image of a sign yeah I'm like you will make sure we say catalog able mistakes if that is your approach or at least that was what I saw um and then switching out of that and understanding angularity understanding you know a succeed in how skatin houses understanding the houses on their own terms gives you the results that you're supposed to get from houses I kind of like didn't fully believe that houses worked yeah before I learned to get away from that twelve letter alphabet thing because they didn't do what I was told they should do and you know and that also connects back to if you're thinking of them as signs then everyone is equally viable you know the twelve signs are 12 different patterning yes I'm one is not better than another one is more Saturnia more solar one is more planning one it's more fast I mean the words yeah the houses are the houses are unequal yeah yeah so I mean but we all did start there so we all start out of there with modern astrology and that was so ingrained that if you read most intro books it's just taken for granted and so we started there but then once we started learning about older forms of astrology we saw that not only was that conceptual model not there but that the houses had their own independent meanings that were based on other conceptual structures that actually seemed to be more important and more foundational for understanding the houses on their own terms yeah and I it's worth noting that there's also a market motive for the 12 signs equal twelve planets yes because you can present instead of so with signs and houses if there are two sets of twelve you have a hundred and forty-four overlaps yes whereas if they're the same thing then you only have to describe 1212 writing in a printing perspective it's 1/12 the complexity yeah right and so you can kind of easy it a cell to a mass-market you can present as if you're covering a lot more ground yeah well and also it's just easier because I think one of the issues especially that nervous students run into but even more experienced astrologers is that sometimes they'll know a few significations of the houses but then they'll struggle to come up with what are the other meanings and they'll reach to the signs and they'll say well the 12th house indicates this this and this but then they'll sort of start grasping for other meanings and they'll reach - well pisces is the 12th sign so the 12th house must also mean this that's a good point when you do the signs equal houses it not only gives you mao mediocre understanding of houses it also corrupts the signs it does corrupt the song because Sagittarius is not always about long distance travel correct right if you have Sagittarius in the second it has nothing to do the travel and everything to do with your financial strategy yeah which may have its own problems or gifts depending on so and as a Sun in Pisces having the Sun in PI having Pisces always described in 12th house terms not useful and not accurate not helpful so part of your objection is part of what you're bringing up is that it's not just that contemporary astrologers in late twentieth century started taking sort of stealing significations from the signs and importing them into the houses but also some of the significant the houses started being imported over into the signs yeah yeah but blurred the variable membrane things yeah and yeah exactly which makes both not work it makes both diluted essentially okay yes like uh what's the worst sandwich you can imagine I mean peanut butter and jelly got scars yeah that's wonderful without complementarity there between the sweet and the salty what are the offended right now one of my brother's favorite like terrible combinations was salted peanuts and chewing gum Oh disgusting yeah so that's kind of like yeah Xuan I like chewing gum and I liked salted when you put them together like that's basically what signs equal houses is is like nut studded chewing gum are you who's gonna be editing this episode yeah okay I appreciate him very much he didn't he didn't eat that he just went through a phase where he was trying to come up with the worst combinations no no it was it was a creative project for him okay I love it well I feel free Steven to put a like a mustache on Austin at this point if you want your interest in the it was one of his classics there were some other ones that were really good too but I don't remember there was a Vidalia dijon tic-tacs was another okay another thing that would never exist I think we're getting a slightly off track I'm gonna make a point here on the houses which is that when you learn when you attempt to learn the topics of the twelve houses in a way that is not borrowing from the zodiac signs it is harder I will say it right there and when I teach students you have to learn you know almost every beginner student even if they have studied modern that has come into my program they're stuck they need to learn what is the eighth house really about if I'm not just going to use all the score woods what is this whole house really about and I know we're gonna talk about these and now just one thing I would I've learned from teaching yeah is the people who come in with nuts and gum already like coated in it's very difficult to pull all the crunched peanuts out of dung it's very um off anything for people who come in who don't have that they pick up houses super fast it's really not very hard it's just you have to unlearn what you initially learned in order to rebuild your understanding of the houses yeah yeah and that's unfortunately the process we all had to go through totally absolutely and you had to backtrack and then your brains working twice as hard but in the end it's worth it because I never understand I just never really I was always skeptical about houses because when you use when you when I did it that way it just didn't work like it was supposed to I was like yeah not so sure about it and then my my skepticism was validated I was like oh that's not the way you're supposed to do it at all I know it works now it works so we probably could be people to at least maybe Toronto maybe not convinced but to put an invitation up there to try the non ABC approach yeah house meaning and that's to as much as we can what we're going to be following here as we get into the significations the houses eventually is trying to just build it up from scratch based on the astronomical sort of meaning and location of the houses as it relates to things like angularity versus houses that are cadent or succeed and which is something we haven't quite talked about yet as well as another conceptual structure which appears to have been the original or one of the original conceptual structures for understanding the houses which is a set of assignments for each of the seven traditional planets - one of the twelve houses which is known as the planetary joy scheme yeah and really quickly that scheme let me put it it's on your diagram isn't it yeah and I think if you even if you don't have a full conceptual understanding of the joys at least if you memorize which planet has its joy in which house you you're probably better off drawing on from some of those planetary keywords to help fill out your house meanings then fall back on the signs sure so in this diagram you can see each of the seven planets is seven traditional or visible planets is associated with one of the houses so mercury is assigned to them first house the third house or the moon is assigned to the third house and this is tied in with the traditional names of the houses in ancient greco-roman astrology so the third house was called the place of the goddess and that was said to be the house associated with the moon and that is opposite to the ninth house which was associated with the Sun and it was said to be the place of God the fifth house is called the place of good fortune and that's associated with Venus and that is opposite to the house is associated with Jupiter which is the 11th house which is called the place of good spirit then we have the sixth house which is called the place of bad fortune which is associated with Mars and it is opposite to the 12th house which is called the place of bad spirit which is associated with Saturn so this is actually the sort of original conceptual structure for assigning planets to some of the twelve houses and as you can see it doesn't really have anything to do with that other more recent construction at sometimes used of like the twelve letter alphabet of Ares equals Mars equals first house and Taurus equals Venus equals second house and so on and so forth yeah so that's part of what we'll be following here and as we go through it we'll see that some of the significations that the houses are actually derived from that planetary joy scheme but there's also other conceptual structures like the concept of angularity we've already talked about the for angular houses but we also have to also introduce the idea of the angular triads and the idea that there are these four the sequences of three houses that are grouped around the four angles and that repeat four different times so how do you guys want to introduce that just directly okay so there's first there's always a house that comes before where the the house if a planet is there it's falling away from where it's moving away from the angle and these are known as the four cadent houses and cadent means to fall away from something or to decline from something it's because the planets that are in those houses are declining away or moving away from the prominence of being in an angular house so the four cadent houses are the third house which is falling falling away from the fourth house the sixth house which is falling away from the seventh house the ninth house which is falling away from the tenth house in the mid heaven and then the 12th house which is falling away from the first house and the ascendant then on the other side we have the succeed in houses which are houses that when planets are placed there they're rising up towards the angles or they're moving up towards the angular houses where they will eventually succeed and sort of take over in terms of their position of prominence that the angles occupy and the for succeed in houses are the second house where it's rising up towards the first house the fifth house which is rising up towards the fourth house the eighth house which is rising up towards the seventh house and the eleventh house which is rising up towards the tenth house so when you group those sets of three houses together it's known as an angular triad so for example the angular triad associated with the ascendant is the twelfth house the first house in the second house and that forms a set or a sequence of three or an angular triad then you have the third house the fourth house in the fifth house then the next sequence is the sixth house the seventh house in the eighth house and then finally the final angular triad is the ninth house the tenth house in the eleventh house and those are the four sets of three otherwise known as angular triads all right so those are some of the conceptual structures that we're going to be using the last one that we've already mentioned briefly in passing is just that the houses that aspect the first house the rising sign tend to be more positive so that's houses like three four five seven nine ten and eleven which form either a sec style square trying or opposition with the first house and therefore since the first house is said to be the house associate with the native any of the houses aspect in the first house are said to be supportive of the native in some way whereas the houses that don't aspect the first house are said to potentially be not supportive or in some instances even destructive towards what the first house wants to signify so this is the sixth house the eighth house in the twelfth house and who lesser extent the second house yeah from an aspect in the ascendant perspective the second house is definitely in there should I know that it gets treated a little differently we were talking about that last night yeah they don't talk us badly about the second house as they do about the other three right yeah and so we'll get to that when we touch on this well we get to that second house so are there any other preliminaries that we need to touch on yeah we're should talk about the basic quality of cadence exceed and angular houses yeah okay all angular houses are powerful yeah they make things happen but if you have a lot of planets in those houses or planet yet planets that are in angular houses are very active they're energetic and they're obvious from usually pretty early on me yeah it's I think about it as a checklist of like whatever planets are in angular houses you get early in life and this seceded planet a student house planets maybe a little bit later or with a bit more effort and then Kate and house planets great effort or great delay mm-hmm mm-hmm and I would say that angular positions in a planets that are angular in addition to speaking to the specific area but that angular house covers like forth with families yeah angular position it's there will also tend to have a more global effect on the chart because they're very powerful that's beautiful succeeding houses tend to have more to do with resources that a person can draw on social internal financial energetic otherwise they're not wildly energetic they they don't tend to have the same global impact as angular houses and then but they are you know they're steady they're rising up - they're moving towards an angle which is and rising or sinking depending on where you are and then cadent houses Cayden houses are generally problem-solving houses two of our least favorite houses and two two of the traditions least favorite houses which are the six and the twelve and everybody does agree on that okay yeah six and twelve are bottom one minute less on everybody's list for literally thousands of years of the most difficult houses it's problematic and then but even the even the the third and the ninth the ninth being the most positive you're still there's still a there's still a being drawn into figuring out problems we'll get into it during the next episode but even the ninth which is very favorable it's figuring out philosophical problems yes which is better than you know figuring out why your dishwasher is broken but it's still figuring it out yeah and so planets that are in Cayden houses tend to have a lot of their time taken up by just solving problems and the result of this is that they have less energy to bring to bear on on other parts of the chart on whatever their actual significations are intentionally like doing yeah doing their general thing and that's in strong contradiction to the angular planets which have a ton of energy to accomplish whatever it is yeah that's a great description thanks the energy different the energy level difference is really important I think for people to understand with that angular secede and Cayden yeah and so you know again the way that that mixes with signs is you might have a planet that isn't in a sign that's special for it but it's in the first house and so it's going to be very emphasized where you could have you know your special exalted thing but it's off you know it's off there in the six then you're like why aren't I amazing at all these things yeah and so just energy levels is one fundamental thing you remember with houses yeah another key word that I use for the angular houses is prominence and this is already kind of something you mentioned in passing Kelly but the idea that the angular houses and planets and angular houses are more prominent or the most prominent planets typically in a person's life because astronomically those planets are at their most visible points where the simply the most obvious where you know planets in first house were by the ascendant are literally rising up into into view and suddenly become visible for the first time after being under the horizon before half of the day yeah planets in the mid heaven or the tenth house suddenly are at the highest and most visible part of the sky planets in the seventh house visibly disappear and sink out of sight and then planets at the in the fourth house are at the midway point of invisibility basically their most invisible yeah yeah well if we think about the the fourth houses the Sun at midnight that's when night is the most obvious yeah right it's like oh it's definitely night it's not gonna be morning for a while yeah hasn't been evening for a while it's the it's the most visible point of invisibility for the Sun right what's that phrase like the dark of night or the dead of night yes yes okay there was a phrase so prominence and then taking that on just following the same analogy that you were doing Austin like so if planets in the 4th or 3rd most in their the Engels Arthur most prominent succeed in planets are rising up towards prominence and they're not quite there yet but they're on their way up headed towards the angles and they will become prominent within the course of an hour or two when they move into the angular positions whereas succeed n't or sorry cadent planets or planets in what used to be called declining houses are literally falling away from the angles and they're declining from prominence mmm so there's this idea of them receding or falling away in terms of not just their power but also their visibility in some sense mm-hmm yeah that's it's the the energy if you like of like striving to get up something or to get somewhere and that's the Sicilian planet is sort of the aspirational we're not where we want to be but we've got a sense of where we're going the angular points or the angular places you know we're there we're doing our thing we're right in the thick of it and then the Cayden is a little bit of that depletion almost that comes after having done the thing mm-hmm well end when you follow they when you follow the houses in the order that the planets move through them which means in the order that all of your transits will work one two three four five you always do Cardinals succeeding Katyn Cardinals succeeding Katie yeah and that that pattern repeats yeah yeah in terms of like even transits for example yeah yeah you're the first to see dn't yeah yeah yeah yeah you can see that as with all other tree moves not only with the moon with just when you said the moon I'm like people can watch this if you want to understand the different energy levels in your and chop watch the moon moving around your chart it's gonna move through your houses every couple of days you change houses right yeah and so that was all and that's also that secondary motion that I was talking about in terms of the movements of the planets by transit when I move in that yeah that anti-clockwise motion yeah versus the diurnal motion the daily motion which is clockwise in a 24-hour period yeah and that confuses people in the beginning for sure yeah you can don't get used to it I mean one of the easiest the easiest things you can do is just get like solar fire or some astrology program like that and just animate the Charter thing and move it sort of in a 24 hour period just jump hour by hour and then you'll see the planets moving around the chart like we were doing earlier but then also sort of freeze the chart and change the increment and then move it at a daily rate and you'll see the planets moving through the signs of the zodiac in that motion in the clockwise or counterclockwise motion anyway all right so any other conceptual stuff that we should touch on before we move on and actually start getting into the significance of the twelve houses I think we should move on and that stuff will come up but I think that's a good overview for people to get started with that okay excellent all right so let's start talking about the actual significations of the houses now that we've gotten most of the conceptual structure out of plate that out of the way basically right I think we've we've done a fair in pretty consistent extensive job and I think that's plenty for people to chew on yeah and if they want more they've got all the right terms and phrases to now go looking for more info yeah and if they want more like each of us teaches courses or has books where we go into all this and much more depth but what we're trying to do here is a broad overview of the significations the houses at this point yeah mm-hmm okay so let me throw up my diagram and this is actually from the the poster that I did this year for the signification z' of the houses that's part of the planetary alignments poster and this just shows the signification z' of the first six houses which was what we're going to cover now starting with the first house and let's just see how far through them we can we can get so starting point is the first house and for my significations at the houses you can only fit so much on here but the primary four significations I mean first what we'll say is that it's an angular house it is the first house is associated with Mercury it's said to be the place where mercury rejoices or has its joy and the significance I have here are that mercury or the first house signifies the self the body the character and the appearance of the native or the person who whose birth chart you're talking about or who owns the birth chart that's being looked at what do you guys think about those significations I mean they those are my significations than I think I stopped some from you so Kelly so I think you should absolutely because we both have these diagrams floating around right yeah I mean it is the first house is the most you part of the chart so it essentially describes partly your physical appearance it speaks to your physical vitality the underlying kind of health or vibrancy within your Constitution if you like it's not necessarily going to tell us well there's some nuances between the first and the sixth house but primarily the the level of energy or vitality I think is the first house the life spirit inside your body yeah well I would say that it is both the animating spirit as well as the machinery that anima that's beautiful you know we've talked about this before that especially in a whole sign system the first house is where heaven meets earth right it's where you know it's where the you know the ghost in the machine interface and so this first house has significations that are both spiritual and psychological as well as very bodily physical which have to do you know body shape body functioning bodily appearance yeah but also characterological and so any planet which is in the first house will be enacted and embodied that's a beautiful way of describing it yeah thank you yeah and so yeah it's it's sort of what a lot of people are looking at when they're looking at Raja Oh what is this person like or what am I like start with the plan if there's a planet in the first house had the planet would the person will literally enact that constantly yeah and that's a great rectification tool as well like if you have somebody that has their ascendant really late and a sign or really early in a sign and you're not sure if it's one sign or another if there's a planet that's in the first house in one of them that's not in the first house in the other if that person if like let's say Mars is the planet then that person who's going to come off as very Mars II either in their physical appearance and something connected with Mars about how they appear or their physicality or alternatively in terms of their character or character traits or how they put themselves forward will tend to be more martial if they have like Mars in the first house let's say yeah and if you're choosing between let's say person has Mars in Sajan Saturn in Capricorn and you've got a rising that could be either like are they are they a bold and sometimes obnoxious truth-teller likes exercise right why are they like thin and grim yeah you know with Saturn and cap in the first yeah it's you know there are they reticent and erect as a as a Saturn ruled ascendant person how dare you that was on your wasn't that on your business cards didn't grinning indirect I don't I don't think that was on my business card but I mean this is great oh and that's very funny and so what happens when you have multiple planets in the first house Kelly well you get to be all things you get to be many things well and so yeah and so I suspect the planet nearest the ascendant degree comes out well you're gonna get into a complicated but judging in terms of influence that's where dignity you know which planet is more comfortable in that sign is really gonna show because that'll planet will tend to lead the parade but yeah if you've got a one planet in the first house that's such a wonderful starting point for understanding that person right yeah definitely yes so understanding the person both in terms of their their mind and their character but as well as their body yeah and I think that's the reason why mercury has its joy in the first house it's because mercury and astrology especially traditional astrology always plays this role of having this dual role or bringing together and being the bridge between two different worlds and nowhere is that more evident than the first house where you have that union of the the spirit or the mind as well as the the body and a physical incarnation yeah yeah it's also in that it's the most immediate house it's your direct interface with the rest of the world and to a planet that is there as well as the ruling planet speaks very strongly to what your style of interfacing with everything else that not you is yeah and so there's also the you know one of the dualities there is self world yeah right there's mind-body self world you can you know a beloved above the horizon below the horizon night day etc right outside and then on with mercury rejoicing in the first there's also the like how is it easiest to talk to people yeah it's easiest to talk to people face to face yeah right and that's first houses is even its immediate and present now and so if you're doing the astrology of physical health or of mental health planets which are India in the first house or and we're ruling the first house should be of absolutely primary concern right the planet ruling the first house is critical for then we need to stop and define that if we're gonna go into a house rulership so right now in the initial starting point that everybody learns at the beginning and is pretty straightforward because you can see it visually if you just look at the houses is that there are planets in different houses and some planets some houses have planets in them in your birth chart and other planets don't have any houses in them or appear to be empty yeah and that's often a question that a lot of beginner students I see come up hundreds of times is just what does it mean if I have a house that's empty and doesn't have any planets in it yeah it looks disconcerting because it's the eye naturally goes you know if you if you do have multiple planets in a sign or in a house your eyes naturally drawn to that but every house has a planetary ruler that is responsible for the topics of that house so whether that planet it can be anywhere in the chart but if it is the I mean I'm I typically just use the planetary ruler of the sign on the house and I know there are other ways of going about that that's definitely the place to start yeah right so you've got a sign that overlaps with that house if you're if you've got Sagittarius rising then Jupiter is the ruler of the first yeah and this is what to go back to our point earlier in the preliminary like this is why you want to look at what is the unique sign house combination in the chart you're looking at right in terms of like is Leo on the cusp because it's full sign houses it's easy because the house fully aligns with the sign yeah but with other forms of house division when you're looking at house ruler ships it's usually said to be whatever sign is at the beginning of the house or the starting point offline right the cusp of the house the planet that rules that sign is said to be the ruler of the house and therefore it is said to when a planet sign aligns with the cusp or the starting point of the house the planet that rules that sign is said to have some role to players said to be in charge of that house so it's not just planets placed in houses that are important relative to that house but it's also the planet that rules or in is in charge of that house that has something significant to say about how the topics associated with that house will play out in the natives life and chart yeah and if you were beginning read if there's a planet in there read that and then if there's not a planet in there read the ruler until you have some practice you're gonna get super confused by trying to read the ruler and in relationship to planets that are already there etc etc if there's a planet there think about that first yeah and then if there's not look at the ruler and then if you have both then usually it's a matter of priority and precedence where planets in the house have greater precedence initially but the ruler has greater precedence or importance oftentimes in the long term or later on overall sure yeah all right yeah but the first house it's very much it's you it's gonna tell us the most obvious and striking things about your personality your body body your physicality yeah and in terms of the the ruler of the first house though because that's really important the ruler of the first house is the planet that rules the rising sign mmm-hmm so let's give an example let's say if a person has their ascendant in Gemini or another way to phrase that is just the person has Gemini rising then mercury is the the ruler of Gemini so therefore if the ascendant is also Gemini than mercury becomes the ruler of the first house so then you would want to see where mercury is located in the chart and that will tell you something about how some of the first house topics manifest themselves in the life of the native so you would want to look at what sign of the zodiac mercury is located in and that will color some things about the first house you want to see what house mercury is located in because mercury the ruler of the first house might be in let's say the seventh house or the tenth house yeah and then you want to see what aspects mercury has to it in terms of part of its overall planetary condition to see if it's working well in the chart or if it has some challenges for some reason yeah I mean there's so many layers into that and that's what we get into all the beautiful chart interpretation but yeah I think it is good to know the planetary ruler piece but yeah especially if it's empty because yes everybody worries about that right half itself yeah and if you don't have a plan you have a character yes well not everyone has character well they have a character right might not be a pleasant character I mean didn't grim but you know I think that was the key word but that's what I'm going with okay so going back to the first house are we done with the rule or do we want to I want to touch on one point about the first house and its ruler which is just that the first house is so important that paying attention to the ruler of the first house is actually one of the most crucial starting points in chart interpretation in general yes so we'll go back to like planets in the houses and stuff like that but just to finish up this point about the rulers of the houses you really want to pay attention to an ancient astrology the name for the first house or one of the names the first house was that the helm as in the the helm of a ship which is like the where the steering wheel is that where you steer a boat from or a ship from and the planet that rules the first house was said to be the steersman or the captain of the ship yeah the planet with its hands on the steering wheel basically right so the ruler of the first house is probably one of if not the most and important house ruler in the chart because it's placement is going to tell you something about not just what topics the natives life tends to be steered towards based on what house it's located in but also how the native goes about steering the sort of metaphorical ship of their life in general and whether that tends to happen or they tend to operate things with greater ease or whether they tend to run into certain issues and sort of steering the overall ship yeah and so one way to boil that down is that the ruler of the rising has a lot to do with decision making mm-hmm the position and condition of the ruler of the rising will tell you a lot about what factors a person takes in when they make decisions and also you know do they err on the side of wildness or caution or stupidity or you know whatever it is but decision-making which is if you you know with the first house we're looking we're looking at questions that are fundamental like I don't know what are they like you know do they have good judgment are they you know save or are they healthy or they sick lot um what is their body shaped like yeah are they always well presented right are they puffy are they round are they stocky yeah yeah are they rectilinear it's right it's a better word for square all right yeah so yeah and sometimes that can also manifest as like I've done some charts and done some work on people that have had like physical disabilities or things that are causing like impediments or sort of like speed bumps in the functioning of the body in some way or another whether that's something that the person is born with from the start of their life or whether it's something that comes up later in the life for some reason sometimes that can come up as a topic associated with either the first house or the ruler of the first house oh yeah the body yeah I would say that that is if I had to pick one thing to look when doing physical health mm-hmm first ruler first yeah there's another house and we'll get to that one we'll get to that one sure going back I want to go back to one of the the astronomical significations and the reason why all of the houses signify different there's kind of a misconception in modern astrology where when astrology went psychological they started treating the entire chart as representing different parts of the native psyche and saying that different parts of the chart are just extensions of the native psyche and it's all you but one of the things that you notice really quickly when you go into traditional astrology is that the first house is really the house that is most closely associated with the native or the person born at that moment and the other houses represent different people or different parts of the person's life yeah so like your first the first house is you the seventh house is your partner the fourth house is your parents the fifth house is your children and so on and so forth the eleventh house is your friends so part of the reason for that astronomically though and why the first house if you're going to pick one of the twelve houses that's so closely associated with the native is because the birth chart is a diagram that shows the alignment of the planets the alignment of the cosmos at the moment of your birth and just as the rising sign depicts the sign of the zodiac that was rising over the eastern horizon and the stars and planets that were emerging from under the earth and were emerging indivisibility at the exact moment that you were born at the exact moment that you emerged presumably from like your mother yeah just you emerged from your mother basically at that moment and the rising sign represents the emergence of the cosmos or what was emerging at that moment and that becomes the connection between basically the symbolic connection between the first house or the rising sign and what was happening in that moment which is basically you are merging physically into life mm-hmm yeah do you guys have any other is there anything else about that in terms of that notion of it's just so important the notion of emergence and the notion of the rising sign astronomically in the connection between the and just the notion of the first house is that primary house that represents you in the chart versus the other houses often representing other people in your life or other parts of your life if there's something in that idea of you know you become your own creature or your own being at the moment of birth you know you become separate from your mother you are breathing independently of her and you know once the umbilical cord is cut you are surviving independently of her so there is that sense of sort of being a complete or a separate entity right the symbolism you of the birth piece you know the Sun or any planet you know they get born when they come over the ascendant they they emerge that coming forth idea which your the ancient Greeks have encapsulated in them their moon phase system as well but that's a there's a different model but the concept of this is the the birth of the beginning of the emerging and that's really important point at an ancient astrology and ancient philosophy and embryology especially with the Stoics that they viewed like the the baby or the fetus as like an extension of the mother's body up until the moment of birth and often use the analogy like a piece of fruit that's growing on a tree it's still like you sort of view it as part of the tree until that moment where you pluck the apple from the tree and then suddenly it's an apple that's sort of on its own in some ways yeah and that moment of birth when you are suddenly your own entity that is released symbolically the start of your life independently from the mother and that's why the birth chart is cast for the moment of birth as opposed to let's say the moment of conception or something else yeah and so just to take the fruit harvesting quite literally when you're doing you know let's say you're you're you're getting some plant matter to do some astrological magic you harvest with an election Allart right and what's in the first house is most important important because that's when it's you know it's born as your Apple rather than part of the tree yeah sure yeah and there's lots of others because that's the other thing is this whole notion of the moment of origin or the inception of something like we're talking when we're doing Nate astrology we're talking about the inception of a person being born at a specific moment in time but you can also extend this notion of Incept of symbolic moments of origin to an election astrology like other things and then you cast a chart for let's say the beginning of a relationship between two people or when two people get married and therefore the symbolic beginning of the marriage or what are some other important like conceptional moments founding a business business yeah yeah founding a business or starting a long journey or a voyage or something like that mm-hmm anything that has a symbolic a moment of time in which it clearly begins and there's a clear inception of the beginning of that thing you can cast an astrological chart for and you can look at it relative to the twelve houses once you understand the meanings of the twelve houses you can understand how they would apply to those different types of ventures or undertakings or entities even though the houses originally the twelve houses were conceptualized purely within the context of natal astrology and that's primarily what we're going to be talking about today but the first house if you're doing election astrology also represents the primary house that represents what was initiated or born at that time yeah all right so what else do we need to talk about with respect to the first house we've talked about it being the house most closely associate with the native we've talked about the sort of mind-body duality of the first house appearance we've talked about a little bit but appearance is another good one that gets associated with the first house very strongly and we talked about that a little bit there's different ways that that can manifest but it's usually especially associated with planets in the first house sometimes dictating things about how the native appears to other people in just their physicality so you mentioned Saturn I think already right yeah I mentioned I for the example I gave Mars and Sajan the first versus Saturn and captain okay so Mars can sometimes be said to indicate like a red or ruddy complexion and Saturn can be said to indicate more of a darker complexion or something like that obviously that's a little tricky just talking like in terms of different people and different backgrounds or other things like that but broadly speaking archetypal II it can be applied in that way it'd be like relative to parents yeah yeah and then also shapes shapes hi orientation yeah you know you know Saturn tends to give leaner people Mars tends to give more like mesomorphic you know muscley people with other metabolisms which makes sense and the moon would give more fleshy type appearances Jupiter also gives a relatively abundant try to say yeah and in so on and so on yeah and so there are lots of other factors but you start with ascendant yeah and then Venus is a good one because sometimes the Venus in the first house can be a basic delineation it's sometimes Venus wherever it is place can indicate things that are aesthetically appealing and for whatever reason Venus in the first house can sometimes indicate people that are stand out as being particularly striking from an like an aesthetic standpoint so I think I used in my book I use Angelina Jolie having Venus in the first house and also Paul Newman the actor Paul Newman from the 1950s yeah as just being people that were like good looking or well proportioned or however you want to quantify whatever it is when we say that somebody is like visually appealing sometimes something like Venus in the first house can then quantify that or can qualify that in some way yeah mmhmm yeah I think that's very true yeah and so a person will tend to strongly emanate both visually and invisibly the qualities of any planets that are placed in the first again we're talking about angular houses being very strong positions from which to act for planets when it's in the first have a very they have a direct input into the person very obvious reasons so you'll just see you'll see their quality much more easily than a planet tucked away in the third yes and I think one of them one of the reasons perhaps that we're having a difficult time knowing exactly what to say about the first is that it has global impact on the chart and the life and so it kind of affects everything everything because it's it's the object of the chart itself which is the person and all of the other all of the other houses are the person in relationship to that person or the person when they're in this circumstance yes the other houses are like little snapshot so vignettes is like when you do this thing this is what it's like really first is just you yeah and so yeah it's of global importance and that's Chris like you were saying you know it's the it's the steersman and that got simplified recently into like oh it's the ruler of the chart right and I don't think that's a useful way of putting it but I understand the reasons for that it is the ruler of this and it's always super important yes it should always be considered you know in virtually any any question you're trying to answer when looking at a chart always look at the ruler of the rising yeah and that one of the things it's funny about that is in terms of different astrological traditions over the past two thousand years that's one of the commonalities for the past 2,000 years is almost all of them say that the ruler of the ascendant and its placement and the chart are very important to pay attention to yeah whether it's like Hellenistic or medieval Arabic or Persian or Renaissance or Indian astrology it's like they all pay attention to the ruler of the ascendant as having prime importance in the chart yep very consistent yeah okay and what you're just saying Austin made me think again just going back to the idea of prominence of angular houses being prominent and the first house being one of the most if not the most prominent house because what is more prominent than how you appear to other people when you like walk up to a person and what is the first thing that you notice about a person when you when you see them mm-hmm yeah and I would go ahead and that's thing will be different for everyone based on their appearance but you will see the indications of that via the first house mm-hmm yeah and that's it's worth noting that if you're looking at someone from the the distance of a movie for example if you're like oh that actor you're seeing other houses if you met them in person you'd be getting their first house yes yes right no no filters and cinematography and all that makeup and lighting and because sometimes what you're seeing if you're watching a movie or something as you're seeing the person's 10th house yeah or you're see like their reputation or their their work or their career what have you and that may be what you know a celebrity from versus like if you meet a celebrity like in the airport like sit and talk with them for a couple of hours and you're like oh you're like this whole other person yeah like you're not as tall as I thought you'd be yeah nicer or yeah yeah no you yeah like you really come off as very arrogant in the movies but in person you're actually very humble or something like that or vice versa yes yeah okay um one other point I want to bring up that you mentioned briefly Kelly and that made me think of something we should touch on is that we're talking a lot about natal placements in terms of planets in the house and planets ruling the house but also another thing to take into account is when planets transit through the houses sometimes it can show a temporary activation of the topics associated with that house in the natives life and that can be very important because all of a sudden even if those topics weren't prominent in other parts of your life or if it's an empty house and it's not let's say it not notable for some reason if you have a planetary transit that goes through that house some transits are very quick and can last for let's say a month and other planetary transits are very slow and can last for two or three years or even longer and you're gonna have a much longer activation of that so maybe there's some transits that we could talk through just to because that's another way of qualifying in typifying the houses by talking about them within the context of their transits so one first house transit that I always think is super notable and I use for rectification is Saturn go through your first house and what that can feel like or what that can be experienced like if the first house has to do with your mind as well as your body sometimes Saturn can restrict or can slow things down the nape Sutton's nature is to go slow to do something long-lasting and one of the things I noticed when I'm doing transit work with clients is they get so frustrated because whatever satins touching is just not moving as fast as they would like and partly cuz you like to go very thoroughly when Saturn's around yeah I mean any planet that's visiting the first impacts a person's health mental state and decision making yeah yeah absolutely and if it's Saturn there's gonna be a melancholy tone so the mindset becomes more melancholy and morose and that were relative to how you normally are at best it could be the person settles into a long game patience yes but that's still slower than normal correct yeah yeah yeah so like in rectifications sometimes if I'm trying to figure out a rising sign I'll ask person if when Saturn was transiting through their first house and oftentimes they'll report like a period of having lost weight during that period that is one positive benefit or usually perceived as a positive is Saturn in the first measure if you're losing weight because you're very sick yeah exactly not a positive it's like sometimes it's they went through a period where they had greater discipline and they cut down cut out sweets or started fasting yeah and so they had a two or three year period where they did lose weight or in other instances it can be they went through a health negative health crisis or rough period for health and lost weight as a result of becoming like emaciated or something like that yeah so but either way it's still a manifestation of the same archetype of Saturn sort of lessening things as it goes through the first house which represents the body yeah yeah yeah what are some other transits through the first house well I mean the Mars which is when you know everyone cuts themselves or right has a car accident tool let's see yeah that's a scenario first let's get our Mars transit through the first house and maybe getting a lot more physical exercise physical suddenly having a lot of energy but it may be more decisive in general because Mars is gonna be less like pleasing and more let's just get it you'll also be more restless and irritable when Mars is in the first yeah I mean there you will tend to embody the quality of intemperate heat yes right you'll be like let's do something right yeah and that might be that might go into exercise that might go into being more argumentative etc etc yes but you get Mars going through yeah and do you right there's a heat I mean that's the other well that now we're sort of veering back into the planets but Mars is gonna bring heat which is activating and potentially aggravating whereas Saturn is cooling which you know can be stiffening and restrictive mhm yeah Ryan so and sometimes as you were saying with some transits like Mars through the first house it can indicate a period where somebody might have an accident or an injury as Mars is going through the the first house yeah and it doesn't have to be like a life-threatening injury but you can be chopping vegetables and you can cut yourself three times in a week or well somebody recently on one of the social media channels was doing some home electrical work and burn themselves when Mars was going through their first houses yeah what do you want you want to take it relative to a person's health baseline that's true um you know if somebody is struggling with a chronic condition and you see that's Saturn or mark you know a malefic is about to enter their first house for a period of time then that should read differently to you then if someone is like basically super healthy yes but if someone's you know if someone's let's say their health mentally or physically is vulnerable if someone is prone to depression yes and Saturn is about to enter their first house that's going to be a struggle because it's gonna ping that and that's I think that is really important because whenever I do talk about Saturn and the mental health activations of Saturn it's always relative you know if you are someone who typically suffers from this unfortunately this could be a little bit more problematic and you the reason you share that with someone is have you got your support systems in place you know that type of thing and if someone you know maybe they've got a Jupiter first house or a lot of Sun energy there and they don't normally suffer from depression or other mental health issues it may be a time where they're normally jovial kind of energy is tempered or reduced yeah they're a little bit more sedate they're a little bit more sedate and that may not be a negative but it will be different from how they normally are yeah I can think of some people I'd like to put Saturn in there first take it take it down about 15% yeah sure yeah and yeah so let's see other other transits that can be like Venus going through your first house the Sun usually they're nice yeah that can be like a Venus can be a good time to like have a get a makeover look at the new white dresses when Venus goes through my first house I do not really a dress girl so then every every year when Venus goes through my first I end up buying dresses that just sit there for the next really like a change of wardrobe yeah and yeah people become more concerned with aesthetics and more social than they usually are when Venus goes through the first yeah yeah or sometimes even aesthetics Kenneth can extend to the creation of aesthetics or even depictions of yourself like I remember years ago that I had this exact conjunction of like a Venus and Neptune on my ascendant one day and I like like took a selfie and like put that up and that became like my main selfie that was really good for years on like MySpace or something like that like Levi the guy yeah ancient ancient times so yeah I mean then that can be things that you can do sometimes if you wanted to do things practically yeah it's like pay attention to when you have a favorable planet moving through your first house and maybe conjoining the degree of your ascendant and try to use that to your advantage yeah if you have to take new headshots for work or something Venus on your ascendant would be beautiful and you want to get that once a year so you got a plan for that right yeah another thing that this raises is that sometimes I the last episode I think I did before we released this one was an episode on relationships and we mentioned in the process the concept of synastry so sometimes you can have somebody that has their natal saturn in your first house and maybe that has like let's say an inhibiting effect for some reason on your personality that there's certain people that maybe you don't get along with or you feel that they restrict you in some way or you could have let's say they'd have the positive opposite which would be someone who's Jupiter falls in your first house and they make you feel alive or they make you feel confident or they take you on adventures or there's someone that you always find you're learning a lot with or what happens right they bring a sense of like optimism into your life yeah sure or a hopefulness or maybe they just always showering you with gifts or opportunities or something right or let's see other what's like a negative example like somebody that comes into your life and like accidentally does something and it like they accidentally distract you while you're driving and you get you like crash your car or something like that and get like an injury sometimes just people synastry with your first house can can reflect ways in which your relationship with that person can affect both your body as well as your mind basically so whether whether you're doing timing or relationship astrology the first house is gonna be a really prime part of the chart yeah definitely yeah alright I think that's pretty good for the first house are there any I feel like there's something major that we're missing about the first house that we need to mention but I'm struggling to think of it right now and also I'm starting to think of how we still have five other houses to go through like I feel like there are other houses in the chop that we have to give some thought sure or we're setting a foundation here so yeah I think we did a pretty good job anything else before we move on okay all right yes so let's throw up our diagram again to take a look at the base significations for the second house so the second house is a succeded house it is the house where when planets are placed in it they're rising up towards the first house so it has some sense of that which follows after what happens in the first house and if what happens in the first house is you're born and you emerge into life then the second house is what happens immediately after that which is when you're moving downwards in the order of houses you're descending down underneath the earth and you're moving further into the earth into the sort of in broader metaphysical terms let's say like the realm of physical incarnation and here we find in the second house some basic topics having to do with material things basically tends to be the primary meaning of the second house so things like finances possessions and income become three of the sort of core significations of the seven second house that are pretty consistent in the Western astrological tradition for most of the past 2,000 years yeah I usually think of it as like the main money house so in terms of you know earning money spending money saving money what is your general kind of experience with and perhaps attitudes to the cash flow yeah yeah I I think of it very similarly in terms of assessing because some people some people hoard yes some people spend everything that they have right some people have a really a hard time holding money some people have all good at holding but have a hard time like figuring out how to get it ya know some people are ton in turnout etc etc and so yeah the sort of retention yeah income expenditure and retention or holding yeah financial the level to which you can or can't do that I guess or just what your pattern is yeah and so planets that are in the second one of my one of my favorite single words for that comes from Benari and it's the sub the substance of the native whatever whatever thickness is associated with the life which is possessions which is money which is to a lesser degree the body also we're talking about this yesterday the food yeah you put into your body because food starts as a possession yes you're not allowed to eat it if it's not yours correct well you have to pay in restaurants right yeah like the the primordial purchase is food yes right or the primordial possession is food yeah which is substance which then contributes to the substance of the body yes and so yeah I like substance it's a great metaphor for like this succeed and the second house being a succeed in house that rises up to the first and sort of supports the first and doing so it's that which rises up to and supports the first house in the physical body mm-hmm when like you were saying if you're just like okay now you're born what do you do with maybe here's some food baby you feed it yeah what first let's get some swaddling substance yes right let's get you some clothes good job food yeah here's here's the stuff you're gonna need yeah be yes and when you were talking about planets in a second I also think it might be worth mentioning that the sign on the second course is going to you know slavery your attitude to that so you know different signs have more holding on or hoarding tendencies and other signs have more spending or giving away tendencies so exactly what you do with it of course comes out of the specific things but the the topic the material you're dealing with and did we mention that for the first house that in ancient astrology two thousand years ago when they said your sign or your zodiac sign they meant traditionally your rising sign so prior to the past hundred years prior to the 20th century your the the sign of the zodiac that your ascendant was located in was said to qualify and typify you your character and personality and everything else much more than your son the sign was necessarily but that extends now to the second house and that the quality of the zodiac sign on the cusp of the second house is going to characterize and qualify some of the things related to like substance or material goods in your life absolutely even how you eat for instance whether you're a fast eater or slow eater or a methodical eater well whether you like crap food or yeah I tend towards the health I see food or yeah one of the things I look at also with what's in the second is what does a person spend on yes yeah other than like yes I spend money on food yeah everybody has to do that that's a basic common thing right yeah and then shelter but then once you get past food and shelter people people allocate what financial potency they have very differently yes yeah and so it's not just what they spend it on but also how they spend it so going back to like the Mars Saturn dynamic which probably gonna keep coming back to you but it's because it's such it's such a distinct and dramatic dynamic that it's the easiest sometimes to start with at the contrast yeah as a contrast but like Saturn in the second house and the sense of Saturn tends like withhold things and so a person with Saturn in the second can tend to not spend money as as freely or content content to withhold spending whatever that means mm-hmm whereas somebody with Mars in the second house might spend very freely or very quickly or very impulsive Lee and those are two extremely opposite ways of dealing with the materiality when it comes to expenses or expenditures and the second house mm-hmm well and what you would notice too is that each of those planetary profiles would have a different psychology towards money as well so the Saturn approach can be more I better save or I must say for a retirement even though I'm 15 years old or what-have-you and that even there's nothing wrong with that actually it's probably we all need a little bit of that but the Saturn of course can take it to an extreme where it you know it may not it can be a bit Scrooge like or it may not spend in some situations where it's appropriate yeah well if you have that that's gonna you know generally speaking Saturn and whatever Saturn placements tend to improve once you get older yeah but you know Saturn in the second a lot of times you grow up with some feeling of not enough not enough yeah that may not be literal poverty but if you go to a let's say you go to a fancy school system and your family is you know does fine but you don't have the hundred dollar shoes yeah then you grow up with the sense if I have less than everybody else and so that'll translate into who I better keep what I have yeah when you're older etc etc and so that that's just some the psychological patterning which you might be able to see very clearly when a person is an adult has precedence yes you know and that'll look different you know there's an association in a lot of Geo Tish with the second and your your family fourth is still family but when you think about the substance that you are provided with until you are on your own that is all your family yeah right you know whether you have the fancy sneakers or or you know you've got hand-me-downs from you know from your from two brothers up right like that's a second house experience I love that you mentioned that and use that analogy about early life because one of the examples I use in my book Hellenistic astrology available in fine bookstores everywhere everywhere literally literally everywhere is somebody that had Saturn in the second house in a night chart and I think it was also the ruler of his ascendant so very important planet and also a little bit challenging or tricky and he grew up during the Great Depression and his family was in poverty for the entire like first part of his life or first chapter of his life and growing up a common phrase around the house that he would hear often is that's all we have and that got like built into his sort of psychology very early on growing up in like the first 10 or 20 years of his life to the extent that as he grew up even later in life even though he became financially stable and successful to some extent sort of psychologically he would always still sort of behavior of her act or spend money very carefully and very he'd be very reserved about spending money basically because he would still be operating under that initial psychological premise of scarcity or poverty in some sense yeah and sort of fear surrounding that yeah and so in the converse is obviously true right somebody has a strong Jupiter in the second you feel like it'll be fine sure we can you know let's we'll make it work let's upgrade to first class yeah right it'll be fine yeah and that's usually underpinned by experiences early on where where it was just fine yeah Oh things worked out they could take a risk and recover from it or sustain own and one of the that's so funny about that just to get into a broader conversation is how each person depending on their placements will take tend to take for granted that that's how it is for everybody and if they tend to grow up in that context because you see this normally just like meeting people in different like socioeconomic or sort of social situations or depending on their family as they're growing up can sometimes tend to not realize that the way that they grow up and experience the world is not the same way that other people experience the world even though that should be uh obvious we have a tendency to universalize our own experience and assume it's the same way for everybody else even if on some level we're conscious that that's not always the case that's one thing that being a working astrologer makes it very clear right you know you're like oh I've talked to a thousand people in depth about their lives and yeah it's very clear what's my life yeah like how its seemed different it says yeah yeah but one of the things though that's annoying about that when dealing with clients is if you can make a statement about a person's life based on their birth chart and about this being a unique factor of their life and they can say no that doesn't really register that I don't recognize that as being a unique factor in my life that must be the same for everyone and they will assume it's the same for everybody when in fact that is a unique sort of experience for them that let's say that they grew up in let's say poverty in the second house or the opposite that they grew up having great financial wealth or what-have-you not realizing that there's like such a wide spectrum because you can only see that if you step outside of your life and see how tons of other people experience that particular area of life yeah yeah well and what I would say is that not everything in a chart is unique the chart describes a person's life and some you know there are some things that are very common about my life that the tons of people could relate to and there's some things that are very weird and unusual yeah and you know if you have like a part of your life that's pretty [ __ ] normal then the significant to be pretty normal average right it's not going to be like oh yeah you have this far plant a conjunction right on the Midheaven really know it like it's the the birth threats are going to reflect what's part of the baseline for most people yeah and that's part of what I try to focus on and when I when I teach like how to reach arts its look at what's way off the baseline look at like what's amazing and look at what's like [ __ ] terrible it's because that's really extreme because that's what people will actually react to if you're like you're probably gonna live oh I don't know 60 to 80 years yeah and you know a lot of birth charts if you do longevity calculations they're gonna live around the average right yeah if you break that as a fact it's not impressive it might be accurate but it's not impressive yeah I like you'll looks like you got solid middle-class earning potential you know well maybe that's becoming increasingly rare but once upon a time it was that was an average that's true um but yeah I know what you mean about like when you're just going through the charred and like oh what does it say about this and so bad pretty much what you know which is not terrible or terribly exciting yeah well that's a good point though in terms of dealing with older clients versus newer clients as often times when you're reading an older clients chart you're actually describing things that they already know about their life which is not always super impressive because it's just like yeah I know that already I know that you finances have been a difficult part of my life or that finances have been an easy part of my life or conversely if you're doing a consultation for a super young person sometimes it can be annoying because you can say things about their life that may not be true yet but will at some point in the future but that can appear as if you're saying something that's not true at that present moment in time yeah when I talk to you know when I do readings for people in their 20s I always think about what this charts gonna look like what this life is gonna look like at 40 mmm and from that perspective yeah you've got this amazing thing it's gonna bloom not next month yeah um you know some turkeys take a long time to cook yeah you can't rush Thanksgiving dinner that's a great analogy the turkey does take a long time to cook that's my Saturn is my turkey planet that's your Delaney your turkey is not yet cooked favorables yeah favorable Saturn is a turkey that's gonna take all afternoon to cook so cook and if you take it out and try to eat it earlier not only is it gross it'll probably poison it will be it will make you not time to feast now on your Saturn if you're 25 no it is not at all but ya know with ya and it's one of the things that I try to focus on when I'm looking at a chart is what you know what are the you know what are the good or bad or whatever what are the the significant configurations and what part of life are they likely to bloom in yes and is the person already there like you know let's say our 57 year old client if I look back my oh yeah but check it a lot better at 35 yes ray no I will say that like oh this was really difficult until his age yeah and then check they're like yep or like mmm actually it was 37 but you know whatever and anyway that kind of a little work thinking about when when will this flower bloom and where is the person in their timeline relative to that can be really helpful we're getting way off of the second house what were you gonna say before I interrupted you Kelly do you remember I have no idea okay sorry that's okay we are having some good discussions but we are not on the second house no this is awesome let's keep going one of the things I want to talk about is sometimes the placement of the ruler of the second in houses other than the second can describe how the native makes money or some topic in their life that will be tied up in their income for some reason hmm so for example if the ruler of the second house I have an example in my book where the ruler of the second house is in the eleventh house and the native often ended up making money as a result of their friends or their finances were often tied up in their friendships for some reason oh yeah you know who has that I can never say her second name properly but the comedian Amy Poehler or I don't know it's pronounced polarize something yeah I'm some extra letters yeah there are so it was confuses me she has a sad second house are joopa pisces second house with Jupiter in Sagittarius nice and she's got this very sort of well-known sort of friendship but also business partnership with Tina Fey another comedian room and they have worked together and made a lot of money together yeah and they like hosted the Oscars or something together a few years ago yeah yeah they totally do I just looked at her chart recently said she's like one of my new second house yeah and her the sort of biggest show which was Parks and Recreation yeah everybody in that cast went on to have big career right like yeah the the eleventh house of that show and it was her show wrong shockingly successful wasn't like one or two people went on to like everybody and that sorry yeah just about yeah but so one of the things I wanted to bring up with the second is what does a person bother possessing like what on teen yeah and also what is your attitude towards possessions like some people I want to extreme you have people hoarding stuff and then you have people who are the opposite who are kind of allergic to having too much stuff total minimalist yeah you know and so planets in the second as well as the condition position of the ruler of the second will give you a lot of information about what is this person one how much stuff should a person have according to them and or how much stuff should they have and what kind of stuff yes yeah yeah and Christy was saying like the second house the ruler of the second where people might get their money from in terms of work right but I also have another example where the I think it was the rule of the force was Venus and it was in Pisces in the second and this person was in a very fortunate position where they didn't actually have to work for money because of family money yes their family owned property like farm land sort of level property that was very lucrative that you know through the generations had just created this sort of ongoing wealth so there was a so whether you're working for it or if it's coming into your life in some other way but how where's the money coming from yeah I have an example like that in my book as well where the it was like the grandson of the founder of the Gucci fashion Empire yeah the ruler of the fourth in the second and the ruler of the second and the fourth yeah and in the 1980s he inherited like basically the entire company or 50% of the company worth hundreds of millions of dollars from his father's side of the family right yeah that is that is a very fortunate configuration yeah Tyrael support yes and they were the planets were well placed which is part of that's the other part is like is the condition of the ruler is the ruler well placed in that sign where is it poorly placed based on its condition so tae ik Lee as well as its configurations with either benefit planets like Venus and Jupiter or its configuration with malefic planets that's going to typify if that connection between those two houses is a more constructive or a more challenging one yeah yeah and the example I just shared Venus was in Pisces but co-president with Jupiter yeah yeah all the money yeah versus let's say it let's just do another hypothetical scenario of let's say some it has the ruler of the second house of finances in the fourth house of the parents and let's say I've heard stories of for example like people where they're when they're still growing up as teens their family their parents like took out a credit card in the child's name and like ran up the bill and charged like thousands and thousands of dollars in it and the person eventually becomes an adult and learns that they have a huge amount of debt because they're like that'd be deadbeat parents were running up their credit or what-have-you yes yes there are some horrible stories where I have one story where yet the client the the the individual takes on like one of the parents tax problems for instance I think it's like the ruler of the second is in the eighth and detriment on something like that yeah that's one of my favorite examples is uh Lisa Marie Presley was the daughter of Elvis she had the ruler of the second house of her finances in the 8th house of inheritance and yet death and other people's money and when she turned when her father died he left his entire estate to her with the stipulation that when she turned 25 years old she would inherit it so the day she turned 25 her second house is actually activated by professional yeah and then suddenly she inherited like a hundred million dollars or something like that yeah mm-hmm so again that's showing a large part of the money in her life came from this inheritance from her father yes but it's interesting because then there's other factors that come into play in terms of transits and other timing techniques like perfections that can tell you when exactly that might happen in the person's life or when when those topics that are tied together through the rulers of the houses will become relevant or active yeah yeah yeah it's very juicy well I like talking about second house topics because clients often want to know about money and the amount of times a client will come in so I want to talk about my career and I've now learned I actually wanted to talk about your career from a professional pathway job satisfaction perspective or are you asking me about that because you really want to know about your finances mm-hmm because in our minds we often think well if I fix my job or fix my finances but in astrology we represent you know money and career in two different sectors so they're not they can be connected and interact but they can also operate independently from each other right which is really important because there are scenarios where you have a person that you know is able to pursue their like let's say tenth house career dream job but that as like let's say an artist but then financially it's something that doesn't work out for them or doesn't end up being financially lucrative yeah if there's seven if their second house isn't well situated so that you have a real difference between yeah there you know achieving their dreams but it may not necessarily support them financially or vice versa the person that has the job that they got for the money because that was what was more important to them and they do very well financially but they're never able to let's say pursue their dream through some other 10th house matter yeah yeah yep you know there's I yeah I have the rulers of the second and tenth conjoined and so for me yeah like so that means you know do do what you want Austin yeah eventually make money they're both opposed by Saturn so I didn't make any money doing that until my mid-30s yeah but you know Saturn event as I became older and so I became older and crankier more hateful I became and began to he began to regard me as one of his own but he recognized you yes and lifted yes lifted the ban on my accounts that's too funny but yeah generally speaking you know if in terms of just attitude towards money yeah like Marr if Mars is connected to the second in the second you know controlling the ruler or whatever um Mars and if Mars transits the second especially it usually burns their money you know we literally talk about oh it's burning a hole in my pocket they burned through we used Mars metaphors and language for spending money right whereas Saturn Saturn will tend to deny or delay earning potential in a natal chart which feels like a denial when it's like okay it's gonna be it's gonna be another 15 years until my second house ripens yeah but in it from the prosthetic from the perspective of the life that's a delay yes and then when you do get something you tend to want to hold it because you experienced not having enough yeah right and then Jupiter's Great Wheel of Jupiter configured to the second yeah it's usually not of money is that that's a crime that usually doesn't need to talk about money problems right they might be like you know which charity do i donate yes how should I use my abundant wealth yeah and then Venus Venus is also favourable the moon if the moon is in good condition yes she's great if the moon is not in good condition the moon will eat your money she will yeah you know the moon in terms of material matters acts like a benefit under a lot of circumstances and then under a number of other circumstances will act like a Melissa really matters her condition and who she's configured to yeah phase phase in configuration yeah and when you're talking about like clients and clients wanting to know about money one of the things that you look at there's there's different timing techniques but just paying attention to long term transits going through the second house is one of the things you'd look at like if you see they have a year-long jupiter transit coming up that's going to be a different forecast than if you see that they have a two or three year Saturn transits ekend house yep yes we all have those sort of almost oh you've got the Saturn in the second trends that this is what you need to know about the next three years this is your doing your financial housekeeping if there are debts to pay you got to take that on board and if it's a time to say for the future I mean I have had almost an equal mix of clients having certain second house transits that are getting the reality check like the proverbial 2x4 this is what your financial situation really is get a grip get organized and then there are other clients where they're like I always think with Saturn it's either rewards or Consequences so you could get the consequences of what you haven't done or you get the rewards from what you did but rewards are consequences well they are it's just you're right it's a Zamora it's the positive I guess yeah you know you're right thank you for picking me up on my words yeah didn't mean to pick on you sir I said pick up we could picking me up which my father has done that to me or all of us he's like is that the right word to use oh well I'm sorry I guess I'm constantly doing that with my own language yeah yeah you know it's good because you're right a reward is just a positive consequence so you get the consequences positive or negative sure yeah generally you know Saturn visiting second low risk profile low you conservative buy the house that's a stock market or you don't borrow more than you can comfortably yeah that's yeah that's not the longshot with your with your money no no it's very safe it's very often it's boring with Saturn in the second house but rather it's like well you know like advise your grandmother would have given you or your father you know if you had parents that care about you and they would have said to you don't borrow more than you can afford don't buy things that you have to put on your credit card and they would have told you to save from a young age and that's what's that in the second house teaches you yeah I love that that's my kind of one of my go to s with Saturn things yeah Saturn transits and cetera generals like Stern Stern parent totally grandparent talk they like well you know if you work hard kept for a long time you know you'll get noticed you know you put the work in first yeah you got to do that nor free lunches with you hadn't third yes so and other than that so we've mentioned transits as one of the timing methods that you can use in order to determine when your second house will become activated perfection but in addition to that there's other timing techniques that you can use just we can just State this universally at the top so we don't have to repeat it every time series yeah different techniques in addition to transits there's things like annual perfections where you just start with a rising sign and you count one sign or one house per year so the first year of the natives life is the first house and the next year after the first birthday is the second house and then so on and so forth so I've already done a previous episode just search for the previous episode on annual perfections and you'll find a video or an audio podcast on that so that's one technique that will activate activate one house per year and if you're in a second house perfection year then you may see the topic of finances becoming more prominent in that year in different ways for better or worse totally like in those ages I think 25 37 49 61 yeah that's really good yeah what's yeah like yeah you might get your job at 13 because first house years are always birthdays that are multiples where your age is multiple of 12 yeah so you just add one to that yeah yeah so that good money is so profound there are money here's the money I should say that good years to focus on money and they will be good or bad depending on your second house yes so that example I gave up Lisa Marie Presley earlier when she turned literally the day she turned 25 she she moved into a second house perfection year and then she inherited like a hundred million dollars from her dead father because the ruler of the second of finances was in the 8th house of inheritance mhm technically actually the ruler of the 8th house is also in the second so there's a lot going on a lot yeah I'm into play so perfections another one that we talked about on episode this past summer was activating the houses by looking at klipsch --is mhm if you have like eclipses if the nodes if the north and south note north or south note move into your second house then that's going to set up a year and a half or two year period where you're gonna have a series of solar and lunar eclipses bouncing back and forth between your second house and your eighth house and often that can also show a greater focus and a sort of pivotal time for matters pertaining to your second house hmm absolutely generally South node will be less good for money than North node yeah they it'll do other stuff than just good bad but south nodes generally not awesome for money it is north node may bring some pains in the ass but it'll also generally brings in money with it yeah that's North node in the second and South node in a second we're talking about yeah yeah yeah so people can go back and listen to that episode from I think it was like July where Lisa and I went through ended delineations of eclipses falling in the different house pairs and some of the ways that that works out is there anything else about the second house we should touch on before we move on you guys noted like gifts like how person gives or charity those are two significant x' that are definitely relevant in terms of the second house yeah I think in the context of it's doing something with your money basically yeah I mean it and I know it seems like we've just sort of stayed primarily sort of on the one topic but it is it really is about my everything to do with money is second house there's some money stuff in the 8th and when we do part 2 we'll talk about specifically how that works but the primary place I look in the chart to understand our clients financial patterning is the second house and and any associated yeah planets or configurations yeah money and and material goods and the purses lab solutely even to the extent like we talked before about do you hold are you minimalist but how much you care about that as well you know it's it's similarly to the first house it's the psychological approach to what priority you place on money or not and then what that can kind of lead to in terms of your actions and your accumulation gain or loss mm-hmm yeah what's worth owning what that's a beautiful yeah that's right you did say that didn't you great turns of phrase Oh definitely all right let's transition into talking about the third house and the significations or the meanings of the third house so the third house is a cadent house it is the house that is said to be the joy of the moon or where the moon rejoices and it's called in Hellenistic astrology it's called the place of Goddess I actually completely forgot to mention the name of the second house is called the gate of Hades but I mean we'll use poetic but not in such a uplifting way perhaps yeah we'll skip over that and let people it doesn't have a lot to do with the practical signification out of the house whereas yeah I think one of the things I loved learning about the third house from a traditional astrology perspective was that it was called the house of the goddess yeah well another idea like goddess is there and present and like Hellenistic is an ancient astrology that there's this sort of taking into account of both principles yes it was a wild polytheistic medley yes at those times yeah yeah you know the original that's the original context of astrology as far as you know what people were doing yeah I mean it's impressive that astrology made it through as many years of monotheistic cultures as it did but those are not the the birth soil no sure all right so the third is the place of Goddess and the third is in terms of just basic significations for more of a traditional standpoint with little modern thrown in the significations are primarily one siblings that's always been a traditional signification of the third house for about 2,000 years now but also short trips or journeys school or education and finally communication as the fourth major sort of basic foundational signification yeah when I learned about the joys of the planets it helped me understand the short trips thing a little bit better because knowing the moon is such a fluctuating planet that she's cutting changing shape and changing form she's always kind of in movement in motion from one night to the next she's different or she's in a different part of the sky you know much faster than the other planets that helped me understand and the kind of trips or travel that happen in the third house is it's not necessarily the life changing once in a world once in a lifetime sort of seeing it's it's that I'm going to talk about neighborhoods and things like that being in the third but it's all that sort of busyness of back and forward and round and round which seems to be very relevant with the moon's connection there yeah absolutely I when I teach the third house I generally tell people to think about everywhere that they go routinely yes so the gas station that you go to the grocery store that you go to the websites that you go to everything that's part of your regularly scheduled program like that's the terrain of your house neighborhood yeah is like something that is familiar to you that you do on a regular basis yeah and the people that show up there and it is one of the more social socially oriented houses you know as is suggested by being describing siblings right who are just kind of always around yeah they're just kind of always around whether you like them or not all right and yeah and yes that's what the the third house is a lot of stuff that's always around always there always around yeah there was I remembered and I can't repeat the source so I'll have to check this afterwards but I remember sort of an obscure reference to friendship in the third house it's not the primary place of friendship but I have seen it associated in some older texts with the third house so there's also that like the people the people or the interactive quality yeah in balance videos balance that's like a century he says the third house and the eleventh house or two of the primary places of siblings of siblings anniversary right through to the primary places of friends and I think it's got something to do with there the two houses that make a sextile aspect to the first house right and that that's the kind of you know a good friend is gonna have that sextile energy of just like a sweet companion right and in the Thema Monday the the rising has a sextile yeah to Venusians or the Sun has a sextile to Venus and the moon has a sext altitude as well yeah there's a strong association of sextile and Venus and then both of them trying the seventh which is the primary other person or other people house yes the 3rd and the 11th being trying to the 7th mm-hmm got it you know they make kind of a social triad but yeah with the third the third is more casual in its relationship to relationships yes just like with an incidental right with your siblings do you just find yourself there and you you know you can have all sorts of different relationships to siblings you can be close you can be strange yeah and you know usually sibling relationships go through phases right but they're just around yeah and the the types of things that you experience in the third is just it's what's around and so one of the things I use the third for is figuring out like what is what is normal for a person what is life you know what is the yeah what is the normal is normal a grind is it a float is it a rush etc etc I have Saturn in the third and so I always end up isolated and barely knowing any of my neighbors and of course what your house is right now but very sad it's always been that way yeah and also very tightly scheduled yes right with Saturn there yes I have a good friend who has a very has a beautiful Jupiter in Pisces in the third house and he's just always floating around and having adventures and just bumping into really interesting people and randomly like he's the kind of person that just finds prizes on the ground when he walks around his neighborhood and always knows everything about his neighborhoods that um pretty damn fine yeah and so and in both of those cases for both siblings and neighborhoods it's like there's some people whose lives those are not just those are not major topics or they're not significant areas and a major crucial way but there's other people's lives occasionally will come across them and their siblings play a major role in the person's life or the person's neighbourhood is somehow a dominant like feature for some reason of their life if they're like the head of the like Neighborhood Watch or something like that or I know a guy in my complex that like organizes all of the like parties like every month or every other month for like all the residents in the building or what have you yeah and that's totally a third house thing that's like yeah mr. benefit in the third yeah right yeah I just want everybody to you know get to know each other and have a really good time yeah but you get along and yeah and so one thing that's fun is not every time sometimes you need to go deeper into a chart but a lot of time if you have brothers or sisters you can see them very clearly in what's in the third yeah or what's ruling that they're like I have a brother who's a Capricorn Saturn ruled I have Saturn in the third yes in an earth sign yeah done very easy yes yeah yeah and you have lots of siblings right Kelly I do I have a Venus ruled third house and then Venus is sort of got tourists there and I've got Venus in Capricorn in my charts there's a lot of earth energy and just a lot of siblings so it's it is very pleasant in the sense and I think I've probably said this before where I do get along well I've got five siblings and I've got a couple of brothers and I've got three sisters and of course we didn't all get along one can you imagine like for teenage girls growing up in a house and you know I had one bathroom all that sort of craziness but we all do genuinely enjoy each other's company like my siblings will have even the ones that are all in Sydney together will have like pasta Sunday's where they voluntarily get together once a month and have these big meals and all the nieces and nephews there now and about half my siblings live in Sydney and the other half don't but when we're all together you know at Christmas we just genuinely alike right what are we doing where are we going and just as you said like they're just there and you just fall into it but we fall into it in kind of a taurus way where it's pleasant and there's usually far too much food which is a bit of a tourist thing indeed yeah but it's and it goes on for hours you know because that's also Taurus yeah yeah and so let's see I don't want to clip short the sibling part maybe we can turn that but there is yeah there there another part of it which I would say that we're participating in is the third how part of what we encounter on a regular basis is not just people and pieces of land but also what information what sources of information we consistently intersect with yeah and so a website that you visit every day that's part of your third house a magazine that arrives yeah every week or every month it's a regularly scheduled thing that you intersect with and you know or it could be a podcast and individually familiar with the authors or presenters of that they're like oh like you know I think of some of the some of the memes which have been mobilized in reference to the astrology podcast yes with some ones like feels like they're hanging out with us yeah I think that's the third house like oh they're just around we're just there yeah when we see the beautiful pictures of people with us on the TV and they're their children are like playing and the foreground it's true right and so it's not every it's not every piece of communication it's not every thing that a person writes but it is your regularly scheduled programming yeah and I do love magazines when you said that I was like oh my gosh if you love a good magazine so he said it already on the recording that you associate Oz Austin the third house with periodicals mm-hmm that was one of them well I'm thinking male 2 in general like not the boring male like I don't know maybe I'm just projecting myself into this I love like sending sweet cards in the mail that's something I do for my friends I have Saturn the third you do not send sweet cards to your friends Eliza did birds or something so be kind of exciting what you would like that right I mean if somebody sent me like a cool bird or other skeleton or animals I thought you think I saw on the internet there was like a skeleton of the Month Club of where they like send you some sort of there's a lot of things of the Month Club yep um skeleton in the Month Club is the one that you'll see it the one that appeals to me is the beautiful stationery of the month so I could send more Venus things in the mail this is so different what about you Chris my third house yeah I don't know I'm trying to think of well one of the things that's funny is in terms of communication as a third house thing that we were talking about last night was how when Uranus went through my first house literally very shortly after it it went through background circa 2010 I think that when the first solar returns I had was my birthday November 2010 and I randomly took over this podcast out of nowhere which was traditional astrology radio and it began almost decade-long transit of Uranus through my third house which ended up being me sort of very quickly learning a bunch of new technology and how to adapt technology and communicate things and changing my communication style yeah somewhat unexpectedly but pretty rapidly over the course of a decade turn into this basically now we're like sitting here in a studio together it's quite amazing actually yeah yeah well and from a Uranus level like really changing what a normal day looks like because your balance of activities is really different than when you were just reading charts and doing research right yeah definitely it just was became like a radio star in astrology me yeah okay I know that's how I often think of you as like yeah them in the morning drive by like whatever the prestigious radio slot is I'm not that familiar with it but and that was all your Uranus in your third house transit essentially yeah and I think yesterday Austin was pointing out that it's not it's like the ruler of my third is also the ruler of my tenth so that's tied into career and that's one of the other ways the houses can be tied together as if the same rules that rules to different houses it will tend to bind those topics together in some way yeah because when you stimulate the planet you get results in both in both areas and especially if the planet is got a good has got an aspect to both then and can see both really easily then yes you know it's pretty easy we I was thinking about that yeah so it makes sense that you would do a lot of third house things in the context of your career because it's shares the same planetary rulership as the tenth and the way Mars is placed in your childhood aspects both the tenth and the third if I've remembered everything completely yeah yeah which helps that helps Mars take care of both yeah yeah so I think it I I don't know I just thinking about how your career has unfolded it's like oh it makes complete sense that there's the third house well so speaking of careers third house in writing I think my column is totally a third house activity like getting an astrology column yes we're like it's it's literally a weekly grind mm-hmm maybe monthly maybe yearly but yeah you know like it's it's it's time it's not a whoa no it's not a novel that you put out and then and that is what it is so I think that that which is written with some regularity as opposed to maybe more of a ninth house thing which is like that thing that you write once and out there like a book or a dissertation which is literally one thing one writing well yeah because if you talk about periodicals and things that are familiar and part of your regular life you know if you've got a great horoscope column that you'd like to read you are reading it every week usually or it comes out in your favorite magazine once a month and that's you know it becomes a regular part of your routine yeah both for the creator and for the readout yeah for the room so one thing I want to make sure to get in here is this is cadent this house is Caden and as I said before Caden houses will often the result is that the planet in them has less energy and that is because doing all this third house stuff takes a ton of energy it a ton of energy to write a regular column it takes a ton of energy to do a regular podcast all of that you know all of the energy that you spend running errands and yeah bruh hood that doesn't like if you ask the same planet to also run your career yeah that planets a little bit tired yes right and it's not it's not a kill shot on that planet it's not like this function yeah but this is part of the idea that Caden planets have less energy left over to do stuff because then they've got a ton of stuff to do yeah and in the third it's just busy busy busy busy it's you know it's busy busy for different reasons and the other Caden houses but in the third there's just a ton to do yeah sure and another point before we move on that that that just came up conceptually is the idea that and we didn't touch on this so much in the first house in the second house but it comes up here which is that the houses have polarities and there's a real interaction sometime or like two sides of the same coin with a house and what it signifies and the opposing house or the house opposite to that yes so like first house representing self and seventh house representing other second house representing like your finances or your money versus eighth house representing the money that belongs to others and then here we were talking about like you're making that the difference between like something you write regularly or a periodical versus something you do once you write once like a dissertation or a book yeah yeah I I've been kind of biting my tongue on the other houses right um it's perfectly relevant but I think once we get to seven then we can yeah do those distinctions are so clear but yeah yeah yes and you mentioned writing here and I think you know the idea that the third house is about communication it's about language it's about your ability to express the ideas inside you or some of the challenges with that so what do you what do you all think about the idea that the third house represents a person's or you can see within the third house a person's experience of primary education yeah yeah that's pretty consistent I think yeah like so elementary school I guess middle school here right I mean would you put a high school in that and then university and post high school is all 9th house that or that's often what said yeah I'm very comfortable with 9th house being further education yeah you know generally that which is intentionally sought yes um versus like what you just end up in yeah I've also seen the fourth as person's primary education that that's their foundation okay yeah I think it's interesting I've ended up learning the most about astrology during my two fourth house perfections that I've had since I was really into it anyway I just wanted to throw that with the third you say is primary screaming I mean I think that's why the third house is primary school though because it's associated with the the angular triad right next to the fourth and it does play that more foundational role versus once you finally get to University and the ninth you're you have that angular triad that's leading into and preparing you for your 10,000 times at that point going towards whatever your vocation is going to be as opposed to just sort of laying a foundation of the basics yeah I have I have no qualms with 9th house further education that one I'm very comfortable with yeah I just see primary education as much if not more in the fourth than I do in the third okay yeah that's interesting and the other piece then thinking about the third and ninth is like places of learning or teaching or what have you that I do see is you know if somebody is an adult and wants to teach something that they know if there's a strong emphasis on the third house they will tend to teach more beginner introductory foundational type material whereas if they have an emphasis on the ninth house they might teach more of that more advanced or more kind of senior or secondary like that idea of going on from the topic I don't know if you guys have seen anything yeah specialized yeah specialized versus the duck tree sort of stuff with the third I had a client shirt that I've used as an example where she had the ruler of the 10th and the 3rd and she taught primary school she was like she began she was a teacher of basically a teacher yes yeah then she taught in her primary schools that yes yeah fantastic yeah yeah okay all right so teaching communication do we talk about short distance travel we talk a little bit in the context of the moon and the idea of the the changeable we did you should talk about routines yeah just doing all the you know do your chores like your errands and run to the store and then one thing that when this was first presented to me was the idea of the third house is it's your regular travels that's how you get to them from work if your job and this does happen a little bit in Australia because we're a bit mad without travel people can live in sink water can live in Sydney and work in Singapore so their regular travel is technically an international trip but they go there on Monday and they come back on Friday but they have 9th and 3rd stuff they would have a lot of night that's really gets you keep doing that for a long time yeah if they do it like for years there's this there's become this ambiguity sometimes in astrology about what is the do we draw the line like short distance versus long distance which has become more of an issue in modern times as we try further yeah frequently it's easier and you can travel further and whatever more regularly yeah versus in ancient times where you know taking a trip outside of your city was like a major thing yeah and you know to some degree a planet that's in a house will usually affect the opposite house yeah all of Firma kisses house delineations involved not only what's going on in that house but some of the significations are clearly whether it's damaging or supporting the opposite opposite yeah right so yeah we do talk a little bit yeah about the trouble okay yeah short trips siblings oh and just a little bit about siblings I definitely see sibling esque relationships like if you know if there's someone that you would refer to like oh how closer you with her oh she's my sister she's like I said she's like a sister to me yeah people like that will pop up when the third house gets activated by timing techniques I remember I went into a third house perfection some years ago and within like the first month my brother moved within like 10 miles of me for the first time in a decade and I ended up randomly seeing two other people that I would regard as who I would have described as being like brothers to me who just showed up and were immediately there in my life in a way that wasn't true for the preceding decade and so you get sibling esque relationships yes which is something we recognized in language you know in English with the way we describe our relationship to certain people anyway yeah but they're like a brother or like a sister to me yeah yeah a way of acknowledging the closeness that you might feel and I think that ties it back into what we were seeing earlier Kelly and sating Valens who associates the third with friends in addition to the 11th yeah and that's probably part of the time that as well yeah one more thing on the the joy of the Moon right so for the house of the goddess and the joy of the moon if we're looking at so we say patterns of religious or spiritual observance in the ninth we have temples like very special places dedicated to divinity in the third you know we're celebrating you know if we're recognizing divinity we're recognizing it in the context of everyday life how beautiful would be doing like oh I don't know like full moons like let's say ritual every full moon yeah Friday or something as opposed to let's do the pilgrimage you know line off once in a lifetime yeah let's like crawl 50 miles and then do special ceremony once a year you know the third house like that's yeah that ok well it's it's every Friday as Venus's day or you know if you look at the majority of neo-pagan traditions which tend to be more goddess centric it's like oh yeah every new moon every full moon and so you have that kind of regular observer consistency of divinity within everyday life as opposed to going outside of everyday life to do something special and holy I love that yeah because there was a little bit of a I guess there is that magical component to the third house there with the goddess it's sort of that that idea and also true you know one thing we didn't say in the conceptual heart is that you know the houses we're talking about in this first video 1 to 6 are sort of in the the lunar sort of a sphere of the chopper nighttime part of the chart and they have this sort of more you know there's some physical qualities to it but there's also that I guess just bringing it in in that regular way yeah when you're beneath there beneath the earth yeah right there there beneath the horizon you can never see a planet in the third house Yeah right most of the houses first one through six even part of seven are below the horizon and underneath the earth and were associated with like the lunar sphere of the moon whereas most of the houses 7 through 12 are above the earth in the top part of the chart and are visible and concealer and are associated with the solar sort of hemisphere of the chart yes yeah alright did you guys talk did we talk about extended family beyond siblings because that's somebody you know I'm it's an uncool thing yeah that comes up with third house as well I feel like pretty frequently and that's something I feel relatively confident about in terms of it's like parents or fourth house children or definitely fifth house seventh house is like your partner but other types of extended relatives do come up in the third house in addition to just siblings yeah I usually do secondary houses yeah next arrived yeah like if I do you don't do third from third from the fourth for my aunts yeah or I'll do fourth from the fourth for my mom's mom etc etc yeah yeah all right anything else in the third that we should touch on before we move on like I feel like there's something but I don't know what it is I feel like we've hit the main points but well I would just say transits to the third impact your day-to-day experience and they tend to deliver things which are less permanent then they may deliver it to other houses because the like you said Kelly like you open with though the maybe the third is in flux it's like constant flux like maybe you know there's benefit there and you write in astrology calm and you like nail a couple of them but like the next one's got to come out only as good as your last column yeah yeah and Locke paintings yeah yeah and so they're to a certain degree that can be mm less than ideal for a benefit because you know something good happens but then a you know it changes but then yeah um the there are some authors and structures that like benefics in the third week asking me like malefics in the third because yeah there was a bad thing but then it changed it changed into something different yeah it wasn't a bad thing that held on yeah it was like yeah yeah that happened and then moving on yeah so things tend to be less permanent in the third than say in the first or the second that makes me that reminds me that the third house is treated really ambiguously in the Hellenistic tradition for like the first thousand years of Western astrology because it's usually treated as like the weakest of either the weakest of the good houses or the weakest of the bad houses or the the least bad of the bad houses or the least good of the good houses because it's a it's a cadent house so it's a kid inter declining house and it also even though it has an aspect to the ascendant to the rising sign it only has a weak sextile aspect which is the weakest of the good aspects and it's an inferior aspect that goes backwards in the order of signs as opposed to the 11th house which has the superior sextile which is much stronger and ties it more closely or more firmly favorably into the rising sign in the ascendant so the third is sort of like weekly good in terms of the good houses which means I think in practice that it really depends on what's going on in the third whether it's going to be used for absolutely it doesn't like it's it's not a win or a lose button no sure but in yeah and it's not this long a bad house in terms of like the sixth or the eighth of the twelve yeah but it's not one that's gonna stand out as being hugely positive even though it tends more positive than negative all right I think that's good for the third house any ruler stuff related to the third I'm trying to think of different permutations of that like somebody that has the ruler of we were just talking about somebody that has the ruler of the third and like the second and it tied it in like financial matters with their siblings so there's like different ways that you can see connections between I got one oka the ruler of my third is in my tenth and my brother edits this podcast yes that's pretty good and it's mercury and also because your third is Berger yeah so it's mercury he's doing some technical stuff well not just this podcast but also like all of your recordings and classes and other stuff mm-hmm yeah yeah I've ended up whereas you and your brother work together my my tenth house has matured that's brought us to do projects together yeah of a mercury nature yeah yep okay so and you'll see similar permutations like that depending on where the ruler of the third house is located and that potentially tying the topics of the third house in two different areas of the person's life absolutely I mean I've I know someone who has the out of sect malefic ruling their third house and they have an estrangement with their siblings so that you know obviously there can be some productive uses but also you know people do have more difficult experiences with their siblings so yeah and that's really important to bring up because now we're getting into once we get past the first house in the second house we start getting into other people in the natives life and the role that they play yeah and whether that role is a supportive helpful role like if you want more of it or versus understanding that that's not always the case for all people and sometimes people's experience of different specific family members or close people in their life tens more negative or maybe they have some particularly negative experience or that person becomes somehow hindrance in the person's life there's something like that like let's say a person that you know how to falling-out with siblings or will go through other family members as we go through but that's important to keep in mind that sometimes and it's not just even though in modern astrology they tend to conceptualize it as like different compartments of the native psyche and how they what their attitude towards let's let's say like siblings is sometimes it really just is what you're the orientation of your siblings or their attitude towards you is like sometimes different parts of the chart that represent different people in your life represent objective situations and scenarios that you experience from that person that may not necessarily be your fault percent absolutely yeah it might be nothing that you've done but it's how they act towards you or circumstances outside your control yeah it's usually there's an inner outer mirror like yeah if you grow up with an older sibling that's always kicking your ass then you're not you are going to be negatively inclined towards them and you know I mean like the these things co-create yes but yeah it's as much outside of you is inside and cement sometimes it's much easier to see in one place or another but yeah it's not all inside you it's all inside your life yes that's a better point it's not all inside your being sure all right well I think that's pretty good for the second third house mm-hmm why don't we transition into the four thousand so the fourth house in Hellenistic astrology was known as the subterranean place in terms of significations or just basic significations of the fourth house the fourth is an angular house it's said to be the primary house that signifies the parents the home family in general and the private life of the native especially in contrast to the tenth house which represents the public life all right does that sound like a pretty good set of significations do you guys yeah sullen pretty agreeable not too much controversial mercy nor I would I would add property real estate as a primary signification but other than that definitely yeah okay so yeah I mean home and family are two of the primary have always been to the primary significations the fourth house and are two relatively uncontested significations so what does that mean in like a actual delineation or in a proper context of looking at a person's birth chart what does that matter yeah I mean I it allows you to describe the type of home environment that they may have experienced when they're a child growing up so I think you can also get a little bit of childhood sort of qualities or experiences out of the fourth definitely and so you can describe that you can even just using the element of the sign on the fourth or the modality can tell you a little bit about the type of things that are important in their home is technology important is access to nature important is having a home that is out on land important or is having a home that's more connected to community and people and transport so the kinds of things you know within and around your home that you might prefer you can get out of this and of course the family the general connections with your parents and you know positive or negative of course it can go either way yeah I like that you mentioned early life stuff because certainly that idea of like nature versus nurture and the idea of that oftentimes the environment that a person grows up and in the in the early formative years of their life has a very foundational impact in many ways on who they become as a person later on or it can at least yeah yeah absolutely so what is your foundation in life what was your early home life like and what was your family life like early on or not just early on but also as a continuing theme in your life like are your parents is that a supportive area of your life or as there's some way in which that's not a supportive area mm-hmm yeah absolutely absolutely yeah you see a person's attitude towards support and nurturance which they will replicate or mmm I should we say act in relationship to later on you know what what is it we were you know if we think about the the word home like what is home mean home means physical structures and shelter but it also means emotional dynamics and every planets which are in the fourth planet which rules the fourth describes that it impacts yeah like what kind of dynamics a person deals with and you may not do exactly what your parents did but what you do is relative yeah so how you were you know a lot of people are like oh I just want to provide I want to provide what I didn't have as a kid yeah which is expand that you had when you were growing up yeah it's fundamental and planets which are in the fourth have a an impact I would say on a person's emotional baseline hmm yeah you know if you grew up in a family that fought all the time then you know when when events happen or you get in conflict with someone you'll reference that if you grow up in a family where nobody ever fought then that's your emotional baseline and so it'd be weird for you to be around people who process things through conflicts or a conflict right yeah and I don't know if it's time to go into this but already I can hear some people as you're bringing up things like your emotional baseline immediately starting to think of cancer and starting to make arguments about well why isn't the fourth house associated with cancer but maybe it's worth stating that you can get to some of those places without necessarily going there even if occasionally we do see overlaps between the signs of the zodiac and like certain houses yeah well I would say not cancer but I would say the moon can give you information about a lot of the topics that the fourth house comments on hmm that's different than saying that the four thousand cancer sure right sure yeah that's an important distinction to make that the topics that are connected to the houses you will sometimes find information about those same topics via a specific planet in the chart so you can have your fourth house which tells you about your childhood you can also look at your moon and those two things can be you know totally different in the chart but they'll each add up to the story there are that Co significance for a given topic exactly yeah so you could have a planet that signifies the topic in a house right and so yeah that works for and that's part of why that 12 letter alphabet thing worked at all is it's okay for certain houses it's um it's blatantly useless for other houses like either you know Mars is not the first house no I'd like well my job my joke is like Mars is only the significant of the first house if you're an [ __ ] yes right willing to bring up another similar one because we're ragging on one that's like a modern you know conceptual structure but to rag on a more quote unquote traditional one in like Lily you see this weird model where they assign Saturn to the first house and then in descending Chaldean order then Jupiter to the second and Mars to the third and so on and so forth and I feel like that's another one where even though you occasionally will see like an overlap between maybe one of the significations the planets and one significant of the house I don't think that's otherwise a good model to use and I don't think that was one of the original models and I'm still wondering at what point that was introduced I mean I've found it recently an Abu Bashar but that's the earliest author that I can find it in so far and I have no idea where he got it from and like the 8th or 9th century yeah that's terrible that's so is that a model that you you guys use I would say that that's way worse than signs equal planets sure yeah I would say that too yeah but it would look to me it was the first way that I was told about planets being connected to the houses because I was learning from someone who was very steeped in the Lilly tradition so I did get taught that and there's a little bit of crossover like the Sun forth if you use father down there Venus in the fifth and it just so happens that that's where she has her joy like it's like that's just picking up on something else mhm but again you know getting the joys of the planet so just understanding that the essence of each house was much more useful than that system okay yeah yeah I mean I guess the moon could be a significant of the seventh if you're really into your mom yeah yes if you're Oedipus then that makes a lot of sense yes yeah yeah for it would be happy it's getting late in the night and the Oedipus jokes are already starting yes all right so family home and living situation but I think living situation just to pick up on that phrase for a second that's very common like in moderate like your home environment where you live who's there mmm yeah what we're gonna say I know keep going oh that's okay well and so one way to use this that's very simple it happens all the time is when planets transit your fourth stuff happens around your house yeah yeah yeah situation so here's an example so Mars was very recently in my fourth and when it got to the degree where it exactly squared my ascending degree we woke up and the stove or not this yeah the the stovetop which is like a weird electric stovetop that we don't like was just beeping and we couldn't turn it on to heat things and we couldn't turn off the B debate and so Mars the thing that's supposed to make fire wouldn't make fire but was just making noise and wouldn't shut up for hours hmm right and so I was like that was an event which occurred in my home yes to do with the mods thing right I had Uranus ingress into my fourth house earlier this year and then suddenly moved so in terms of my for the first time in 10 years old yeah major and it was a sudden and rapid move that happened somewhat unexpectedly with which are also Uranus type significations and then weirdly not long after that also my my mom decided to move to like sell her house and move for the first time in like 20 years Wow so sometimes when you have like major fourth house transits going on it can be like your home and living situation sometimes it can be like your parents other times it can be like bowls yeah so yeah fourth uh stuff will stir will stir up family drama yeah there's family drama to be stirred yes family secrets if it's Pluto triggers or the iranís is like the surprises but yet everything to do is family yeah yeah and sometimes also qualifying or describing the natives parents and their relationship with their parents and sometimes like how the parents act in the natives life and whether they're a positive like supportive influence or whether the parents are somehow like a negative influence or in some instances like even if the parents are not around like in some instances like I've seen instances of the natives parents didn't want them and I gave them up for adoption immediately and that being a major factor in the birth chart of just like not knowing who the parents were and having a sort of sense of searching for that as part of their life yeah in different yeah different permutations of that depending on planets what Lennon's are in the fourth house or what the ruler of the four thousand doing mm-hmm yeah and for it also has a lot to do with property for acquiring property if you know somebody who's in real estate you know as an agent or maybe somebody who does landscaping yes all that kind of stuff there's almost always big fourth house stuff going on yeah I know somebody that has the ruler of the tenth and the fourth and they rent out like properties they rent out land and like and homes and stuff like that yeah I know a property developer that has Jupiter in the fourth ruling the second so they Jupiter improve the fourth and then they get second house money from it Yeah right that's a great example um and sometimes you'll see like funny weird permutations like I think in my book I use an example of I think it's like Tiger Woods who has the ruler of the fourth and the eleventh or like the ruler of the eleventh and the fourth and he's named after like his father's friend or something like that oh that's funny yeah there's like funny oh yeah and so here's another example that came out recently Dwayne the rock Johnson mm-hmm has the ruler of the 10th in the 4th and his dad and his grandpa were both wrestlers right literally in the family business yeah yeah that's a great example I like that so there's lots of different things a classic one that comes up pretty frequently and is a pretty easy one to spot is sometimes like ruler of the second house of your home in your living situation in the ninth house of foreign places and that person who ends up moving and living abroad mm-hmm for some significant part of their life or sometimes when the ruler of the ninth is in the fourth yeah like the fourth house 9 pass associations yeah so obviously we're that's certainly to drag us into other houses which we don't want to get too far ahead of ourselves but just giving some examples of different permutations of what what do we mean specifically and why is the home in the living situation or the parents how can that be relevant and very specific or concrete ways in the natives life mm-hmm yeah and I would say generally the fourth house does well with nice planets yes it's you know the there are the relationship of the planets to houses is complex and varies to some degree on a chart by chart basis but there are very few circumstances where you can think of Mars or Saturnian influence being super helpful in the fourth right because you're not in that we're talking about a place that's supposed to be supportive and nurturing yeah you know we could have a Mars in the tenth where a person the tenth being what a person aspires to and you know some effort and hardness is relevant there whereas the the fourth is it's literally the support for the rest of the chart and so generally speaking soft planets do better there or we experience off planets as more beneficial there yeah another meaning of the fourth house that's less relevant and modern astrology but I've noticed as emphasized a lot in traditional astrology and I've come to think is really important is the notion of the fourth house representing generally speaking the end of matters back through that diurnal rotation thing that you're talking about Kelly were the first is like the beginning and the tenth is the next phase and the seventh is the winding down phase and then finally you reach like the midnight part at the fourth and so sometimes it can indicate the end of the matter and sometimes in a lot of the traditional texts there were still associations with like death and the end of life with the fourth house mm-hmm and that's something I've see come up surprisingly a lot where it's the eighth house is not the only house that pertains to to death but the fourth house sometimes comes up is being relevant there as well yeah like for example like the you know the the 27 club yes like musicians who like the weird number of musicians that have passed away at 27 that's actually a fourth house perfection year so the fourth house is activated when you're 27 years old so it's not saying that everybody's gonna die when they're 27 but we all made it through right yeah should I need to go back and think of that it might have been a close one but yeah yeah yeah yeah nice a little tidbit just to think about in terms of other significations that are not commonly discussed or that people don't often talk about with certain houses but that might sometimes be important especially if you start thinking about them symbolically where the fourth house is the house that's furthest underneath the earth yeah and is the most hidden and yeah I yeah I I do when we discuss or when I teach inheritance of psychic and physical fourth an eighth that's what I go to you know the fourth the your parents you know the home your parents provided is what you stand to inherit yes right and with forth I think of fourth is like both beginning and end or origin point and eventual destination because whatever you have in the fourth you know again you'll experience early in life and you know it's shapes character in a way that is not directly visible but informs everything else like if you're coming from like a Saturn and the fourth place like you might not see exactly where that like discipline or structure structural orientation it that you might not see the origin of it but you'll see it kind of everywhere yes and that's you know we're talking about angular houses especially the first but the others as well give a somewhat global influence on the Nativity like things echo out from all of the angular houses yeah I think the idea of the fourth house being a base or a foundation of some kind is important that if everything else sits on top of that then everything else is somehow sort of permeated by or influenced by what's in that 4,000 what you know sign or planets are connected to it right another topic that's really important that's more of a traditional topic and I don't see emphasized as much in modern texts but I really grow in to see as important is the fourth house as being if the tenth house is the most public part of the chart the fourth house is the most hidden or private part of the chart and so it's not just your private in your home life but it can also indicate things that are hidden somehow or things which are secret in the natives life and so sometimes if you have ever have to look at a chart where you're trying to qualify what would indicate that which is hidden or things having to do with secrecy sometimes fourth house placements can be where to look for that absolutely yeah totally well what's interesting is the fourth is it's a hidden place that the native can see the fourth is strongly configured to the rising yeah the twelfth might be something that's hidden but it might be hidden from the native you can't see is fourth is like you know that's that's where I stash my things yeah you know I think I know yeah yeah yeah all right so we could go into examples of that but maybe that's sufficient for now for our purposes are there any other things that we want to mention about the fourth house before we move on to the fifth I would just say that of the angular houses the fourth is the most emotional um it's you know again because it's as a kid right it's yeah the first is like yeah it's you and you were you grew up but then you you know you're you're the first house your whole life yeah whereas in a lot of ways you're especially subject to the conditions of the fourth when you're younger and so planets which are there have an opportunity to impact you when you are very emotionally impressionable and that you will tend people will tend to carry the shape of that impression for a very long time yeah and that makes me think of the idea of agency you know where planets in the fourth house because they're affecting you so much when you are a child and you're not really driving your life at that point in time you can be very affected by planets in the fourth house in a way that can feel out of control or potentially a little bit more difficult the younger you are and then as you get older and you begin to have more agency over your life you can contain or manage through your own choices out some of the manifestations of those planets there yeah that makes sense it makes me think I've been some modern books like they'll use an illustration of the fourth house of like a tree and the fourth house is like where the roots of the tree are and then the tenth house is sort of like the leaves in the top of the tree in the foliage but yeah absolutely what's the basis of the foundation of that tree is the roots like what are your roots and what was your foundation in life yeah yeah and and ancestry and ancestral family means that's all fourth house yeah and that's a funny one because when that gets activated when you have a fourth house transit or like a perfection year I've seen people get really suddenly out of nowhere interested in like their ancestry and like looking up there what is like incest recall modes we agree and may 23 and me like having their like their genetic testing and finding out that they've got like a hidden a long-lost sibling or like a half-brother or something like that or yeah yeah there's a lot of that the entrance ancestry.com and 23andme when people are having fourth house activations yeah really interesting well and yeah and I would say that the eighth which is inheritance it's usually that's if there's stuff in the eighth that's what's relevant to you but there's all there you know because there's all sorts of ancestral stuff that's in the it's all there and forth yeah but it may or may not be super relevant to you yes you may not inherit that vast estate or that propensity towards alcoholism but it's still in the form it's still it yeah you are still aware of it and carry that as a legacy but yeah and so if you see strong 8th 4th connections that's that means that there's a lot of that that's relevant yeah that's a good one because one of the examples I use in my book is of I'm spacing out his name Hemingway has the ruler of the 6th and the 4th and he actually inherited a genetic disorder from his father is like family line so when it comes to like the idea of fourth house and lineage and literally what you're getting from your your family line or your father potentially was something that was like like a negative thing or like an illness yeah yeah and fur MCUs goes wild when talking about the fourth in concerns to patrimony right right because that was that was a male inheriting system that he was writing in the middle of right yeah so and so here you know there's it's oh if you've got the rule if you've got this in the fourth you'll squander your patrimony if I do this there will you won't get [ __ ] for a mom if you do this it's going to be amazing or you know if this planets here it's gonna be amazing yeah he's very big on the the yes what will happen with the patrimony with the patrimony yeah yeah alright well I think that's that's pretty good for the for the fourth house what do you guys think yeah it's just but just like to underscore its fundamental yeah and so you know in addition to the specific looking at specific topics like parents and property it's also just going to affect the it's going to affect the life in a somewhat global fashion sure especially if it also happens to be close to the IC yeah and the only other thing is that it is one of the four angles and therefore it has those notions of being one of the prominent or one of the powerful places like we're talking about earlier but of the four angles the fourth is thought to be the the weakest of the four angles the the ranking is usually something like 1/10 7 4 or usually 10 and 1 or sort of either's thought to be equal in power there's like arguments about which one's more powerful but it's like both of those are grouped together then 7 then 4 yeah and I've seen 4 7 but I've seen 7 4 more often yeah ok so that's good to know and I think I think that's it for 4000 all right let's transition into talking about the next house v out so the fifth house is a succeed in house that follows after the fourth and so it has to do with notions of that which comes after or that's that which is subsequent to the fourth house in terms of significations the fifth house is traditionally associated with children as its primary signification but also traditionally in the medieval period especially you start getting associations with since the fifth house is associated with children the notion of like procreation gets tied into there so the fifth eventually in the medieval and especially the Renaissance period becomes associated with sex then also because the fifth is said to be the place where Venus has her joy and it is called the place of good fortune in the medieval period the fifth house becomes associated with pleasures and then eventually in modern times it gets associated also with notions of creativity mm-hmm so I think those are core fifth house significance that are relatively common at least in you know those three traditions of like ancient Hellenistic medieval and then modern would you guys say those are relatively solid or not contestant I think the only contested topic is the topic of sex which in modern astrology is usually placed in a different house in the ADEs but as you mentioned in the medieval period they are had it more with the fifth house oh and I always think of you know Venus being in her joy there and and being the house of good fortune and their connections to the body so the idea of just the the nice things for the body if you like right yeah the good things which come over wood which is babies but you know how do you get the baby in there to start with yeah and there's a whole lots of practice there's a whole history of that behind like the assignment of sex to different houses that's really tricky and I think I dealt with it on one episode yeah I can't remember what episode it was but it was like the earliest reference I can find is actually in vallens in the second century and he seems to associate sex with the seventh house because that's where you find the other and that's where you find the partner or the marriage partner and it's also the place where the the sky and the earth are sort of like coming together so what he says is he associated it with like intercourse or inter coupling which is probably coming out of that astronomical idea of just the sky in the earth coming together yeah but then eventually in the medieval period because of the joy of Venus being in the fifth eventually the fifth house becomes the primary place of sex especially by the Renaissance and then eventually in the modern period due to the sign equals house thing they start associating with Scorpio which was associated with the genitals and then they assign through that Scorpio to the eighth house and then the eighth house becomes the house of sex hmm so that that's usually what most modern astrologers associated with but now there's this whole debate amongst modern versus traditional astrologers and whether it should be fifth or it yeah but I think other than not only other topics I think are pretty consistent for the fifth yeah yeah yeah I would just say in general with the fifth there's people that um creative it's also associated with luck yeah good fortune yeah I would say that with the fifth the you see with a strong fifth you see a person who has a very good ability to make things how they want them to be we call that creative potency where you don't see the source of it it's not like they it's not like a bank account right now but some people just have an ability to like make things go their way yeah you know you could say it's a person's mojo or algae or you know it's whatever they're like you know they whatever they bring with them to situations where they can you know they can create the situation that they want yes we all have some ability to you know to bring to situations the imprint of what we desire or how we would like them to go yeah and I would say that that's sort of the fifth house resource and that you know we and that creative potency is on display for people who do arts yes you know but everybody has that it's just not everybody is acting it out we're making things and showing you in such a big way you know it's a very true say it can be applied in a lot of ways you see people with v has its strong faith house stuff but who work in a corporate environment they're usually really creative problem-solvers the way here's and here's a new way to do this etc etc I would say creative potency it's not a not a bad way to put whatever that is we don't have a gift of it we don't have a good term for that in English and sometimes it looks like luck yeah comes it looks outside in but a lot of times it's inside out well and also I think the creativity angle partially comes from like the fifth house normally traditionally for 2000 years being the primary house of children which is like that which you create and literally like if you have children is a something you you create physically and then you see it go out into the world and like become in little bits on life but then also more metaphorically artists like creating art and creating something as being a more like a metaphorical sort of child in some sense yeah and the idea a legacy of some sort and whether it's a whether it's Michelangelo's David or Botticelli's you know this and that so it's it's some kind of legacy and it is more or less significant you know this topic is not relevant for all of us we're not all meant to leave that type of legacy but sure the people who do have those big v hours yeah but whatever whatever you make has some impact that's true yeah even if it's in a like a smaller way yeah well it doesn't have to be a thing that you make - yeah you know you could make an event happen you want ideas yeah yeah and yeah and they're in even with like if you write a book yeah you're making it but then it goes out and it gets interpreted and however people interpreted it has its own you know it grows up and yeah I remember Elizabeth Gilbert talking about that when she wrote after the book Eat Pray Love just you know became this own thing and she sort of had to reconcile her role in that creative process and she basically said you know you my job was just to write the story and then to release it into the world and what happened to it after that with the movie and the kind of runaway success was its own like the creative entity you put life into something and then that life kind of breeds more life into the future which I guess is like for your children and then grandchildren and things like that - that's really funny because there's this whole debate with George Lucas how he created Star Wars yeah that he never was like happy with certain aspects of it and it just had to be you know get to the deadline and put it out yeah but there were things that he was always not happy with and despite that it's like it's released and what 1977 and it's like hugely impactful and tons of millions of fans loved it and becomes integrated as parts of their childhood which they then grow very attached to and even things that were like almost like mistakes or minor details there were errors or things that were not what he intended they became part of their like childhood memories and loved those features right so it's funny though it's like 20 years later he has the money and the ability to and he goes back and he starts editing them and like updating the the graphics to make them better like fit modern graphics and like changing things like whether Han Solo like shot first or whether the the bad guy shot first video I believe right grito shoots first and the fans are outraged that he would change change this creation because they there's this became this whole debate that's still ongoing for some reason like 20 years later about whether in creating that whether it belongs to the fans or whether he has the right to go back and change his creation after the fact which he is the creator believes that he does yeah and would then not he won't let like the original films be screened anymore because he he doesn't like the originals or whatever when you get into the the idea of like well what does the parent oh the child yeah yeah right and you can see that or we could see that more recently with the Game of Thrones series and the Game of Thrones books where everybody's like come on George yeah yeah give it up come on finish it you owe this you owe this series a completion right Yeah right I don't want to talk about that I'm still recovering from the the finale of the TV show just very disappointing lost endures nods in agreement yeah I'm stared stare alright but yeah I I think the child deserved better parent the parent in that situation the parent had failed the child indeed Yandy I mean the other topic that is I mean maybe just to throw this little word in here is that we're talking about children if you're looking in a chart and you want to define some of the charts fertile potential from a physical conception perspective that is something you would also look to the fifth house for so fertility yes yes yes so like what's your experience of being a parent yeah yeah how did you two parenting yeah what kind of parent are you so like Saturn in the fifth can sometimes if very poorly place can indicate like an inability to conceive or had like difficulty having children would you didn't mean a wide range of different things yes yeah a lot of times you know if you have saturn v like the person would be a parent later that's I was right yeah it can be limits or delays yeah yeah and I didn't want to get too specific since there's a lot of different factors because there are a few other points in the chop that you would look at yeah but the house is one of those places where you wouldn't do an analogy would anu an analysis of if and when a person was gonna have kids and whether that would be easy or hard or whatever you wouldn't do an analysis like that without v correct you would have to include you would have to do more than v but i would never leave out it would be incomplete and incorrect if you did not look at v yeah yeah and they're in the ruler of the ruler of the famous and the ruler of v of course can then tie the fifth house and the topic of children into other areas of the person's life yeah and sometimes important or dramatic ways yes like I'm trying to think of different permutations of that like the ruler the fifth and the tenth and like the natives career is somehow tied up with their children the ruler of the fifth and the eleventh and somehow the idea of their friends are tied in with the natives children ruler of the fifth and the third and the siblings are tied in with the children for some reason yeah yeah and so in just a simple example a really good friend of mine who has a bunch of kids has Sun and Moon in the fifth um and he does lots of things but one of the things he's really invested in and he's put a ton of time and energy and is like being really good dad yeah and like makes decisions about you know how much energy to put into professional this or whatever like is like is that gonna make me a worse dad Yeah right like can I be the father that I want to be and so you know it's like yeah he's person's got Sun and Moon there so that's a really important thing to him the huge lease are huge they sorry sure yeah yeah so important placements or a preponderance of placements in the fifth house can simply indicate something like children will be a major topic in your life one way or another absolutely and you know people lots of people have kids that experience is not equally important to everyone right and if it's not the most important thing to you that doesn't make you a doesn't mean you're bad at parenting no I you can have people who are terrible parents but that was a really important experience to him yeah right yeah but you know if you have a bunch of stuff in the fifth like that that that process either of you know it could be writing novels or it could be having kids but that that process of creating and then that going out into the world and the impact of that's really important hugely sorry yeah something you brought up earlier that I want to return to really quickly is the idea because it becomes important at this point once you get to the fifth and then it's going to become a recurring theme in at least four three or four more houses which is the fifth house once we get to it is the is the first house that's overtly positive and is called the place of good fortune yes and in calling it good fortune the term that was used in Greek was was 2 K which means fortune or luck and you mentioned that idea of luck but one part of it would faceted luck that I want to mention that's really poor important is that which is is outside of the control of the native so we've talked about like creativity and the creative process and that which is within your control but there's also things in life that we have to recognize and it's especially important to recognize when we're going through the houses there's things that are within the natives control and they have some agency over but there's also things in a person's life that are outside of their control that they don't necessarily have agency over and obviously plenty of shades of grey in between but the fifth house is one of the first houses where once you get there when you find planets placed in the fifth house they can have a way of improving them in a qualitative manner to indicate that the topics associated with them will tend to be more fortunate than if they were placed in other houses like the 6th or the 12th for example where if you have the ruler of the half of a house placed in the 6th or 12th it may indicate more problems or external difficulties that are outside of the person's control with the topics associated with that rule or verses if you have the ruler of a house in the fifth house it can indicate that just things tend to go a little bit better for that planetary ruler than compared to where they could be placed otherwise yeah absolutely and one of the interesting and seemingly contradictory but not actually contradictory things is that generally speaking if you are unfortunate circumstances you generally have more control over your environment yes it's like that's the thing about good fortune actually gives you situations where you are you have more agency yeah right in you know there's a little there's a little bit of chicken in the egg but you know if someone's like hey here you don't have to worry about money anymore you're like oh great now I can do like 30 different things that I could like write that book or what have you I can have those extra children yeah yeah but it's definitely like some road rising up to meet you yeah or if you have good health for example something you can take for granted if you have it but if you don't that's when you realize how precious it can be absolutely yeah yeah all right other fifth house topics that we haven't touched on so here's one thing so I've seen the fifth associated with students not general not not in the sense of like every student is a fifth house topic but if you were a teacher and you're not just like teaching a quick class but if you have well let's say that you're a carpenter and you have an apprentice who you you know teach for several years that person will show up in your fifth house because you've taught them their craft I am part of your legacy you know etc etc and so whenever you have activities where there's you know any sort of real lineage which is what children are in the most literal way yeah that'll ping your fifth house significance okay yeah I could see that I haven't studied that a lot myself like you you're more in you've studied more traditions that are where lineage is like really important mm-hmm but I can definitely see conceptually like that just goes back to the reason why astronomically v should signify children just independently is because if the fourth house represents your family your family basically your parents and that's the angle and then the fifth house is the house that come it's the succeed in the house that follows after the four then the fifth house should signify that which follows after the fourth house in terms of which would then mean your lineage right a nice way to think about it yeah and I think that's how way back in like the first century in the asclepion what it called the asclepias texts that how they ended up assigning the fifth house to children in the first place is based on that conceptual premise but I could see taking that premise and then applying it to other things just symbolically mm-hmm well yeah like you have your foundation and what do you create from that right yeah yeah I would say the the quick connection there to with fortune and fertility or children up until very recently with modern science you were either blessed with a lot of children or not there were you know it was a something that was the luck of the draw almost you either were able to easily have a bunch of kids and they survived childhood because back in the day that was not something that happened a lot so I think that you can sort of see some of those concepts you know would have been considered a great blessing for your home your fourth house to be filled with children mmm yeah then you have more workers to go in your field and farm your land or whatever sure yeah yeah I mean that's what I want to have children for I mean it's not what we do today moves out on the contrary you know we could use some yeah to clear the brush or something yeah I know that sounds crazy to us today that doesn't sound crazy oh you had to marry them off to form alliances and right but going back to that because I think that's really important worth not dwelling on a lot but just mentioning and passing really quickly but that idea of coming to the topic of children by saying that the fifth house should be that which follows after the fourth right like that's an underlying conceptual principle where you can see then why they got to the idea that children should be assigned the fifth but also if you can if you can do that if you can go back to the original conceptual principles then you can find other significant x' that could be associated with certain houses and that's kind of important in modern times where sometimes we do have new dynamics or new experiences that maybe didn't exist 2,000 years ago but symbolically you might still be able to assign to a house as long as you understand the underlying conceptual structure that it was based on and I think it's important to talk about because there's always this tension between on the one hand sticking with the inherited tradition and like this system that's been passed on for 2,000 years that works pretty well but also occasionally updating it or adding to it or revising it in different ways you know Kate very carefully and deliberately right with some reverence in accord with the principles right right it's you can get reasonably far by memorizing a list of the correct topics but understanding why those topics are associated with it and you know they're they're not there's not very much that's genuinely new Under the Sun but for example web what is where is my website yes right like there there's not a good precedent for them it will not be in balance yeah yeah but if you understand the essence of what a website does and what the difference houses are then you can connect the print by the by the principles is what you're saying all right yeah or like what is a what does it look like if a person has a job as like a therapist yeah mm-hmm yeah yeah they work like one on one having dialogues with other people and yeah types of subject matter yeah you'll see that show up in like the seventh house or what does a somebody that does accounting what does that look like or what house might that show up in different accountants for a long time I believe there yes there was a specific sub genre of scribe right okay yes I always I see it show up surprisingly in the eighth house a lot early eighth house other people's money yeah and their job is often - yeah 100% eighth house and sometimes you see therapists in the eighth house - yes dealing with thee yeah I see I actually see a malefic in the eighth ruling the 10th with like some nice caring stuff can I get to it but it's literally dealing with other people's problems for a living yeah yeah the funny thing with like being a therapist it is a seventh house style relationship the one-on-one type of thing the material that you're dealing with is a pal see in nature yeah and it's generally malefic it of course because we're not we're talking about disorders all its things that anyway we're getting into a little tie us actually into the sixth house cuz we're gonna come headlong yes right of course so we could go from good fortune to bad fortune yeah so I guess one last thing so as you said earlier this is the first house that's like doing Li good yeah and it is configured by trying to the ascendant yeah yeah and which is important our happiest aspect the most positive aspect and it's one of the most positive houses it's a succeeding house not quite as powerful as an angle but it has that very positive very strong tie into the first house through the trend yeah and that's mmm I think in all of astrology it's very important to learn to differentiate powerful from favorable mm-hmm sometimes you get both sometimes you get one but not another the fifth is not as powerful as the fourth but it is more favorable yeah because we'll start to run into some interesting like power versus favorability or ease dynamics when we get to like the seventh house which is opposite to is an angle but is opposite to the first house or the tenth house which is a very powerful angle but has the superior square over the first house mhm yeah well and I think this is Eden thing just to add this in the eleventh and fifth are often separated and treated differently to the second in the eighth and that they are in the top half in terms of houses that are more favorable right whereas the second and eight even though they are seceding then they're usually in the bottom half or in terms of being the niceness or like ability yes they don't have an aspect exactly yeah for a major aspect which is a sec style square trying opposition or conjunction yeah yeah what were you gonna say oh no I'm good okay all right any other fifth house stuff don't cover it all yeah okay we can always throw in examples but we've covered the topics you know yeah okay then let's move on to what should be our final house unless you guys want to keep going for the rest of the night ha it is 10:30 at night and I haven't fed Austin we saw all day we started at 5:00 okay we've obviously had some breaks and stuff in between but alright last house yeah we're having fun we are having a good time so with getting all these stories in the sixth house is traditionally an ancient astrology and Hellenistic astrology is known as the place of bad fortune contrasts with the fifth house which is the place of good fortune the sixth house is said to be the house where Mars rejoices or has its joy it's a cadent house so we're back to a cadent house like the third house which is also cadent except the big difference is that this Keaton house does not have an ass fact a major aspect to the ascendant and therefore it's not just cadent which is weaker in terms of power and prominence but also that lack of aspect indicates a lack of support or positive things with relation to the first house entity which a natal astrology is the native mmm-hmm so traditionally the sixth house is associated with things like illness injuries work and subordinates and I've updated like some of those a little bit in terms of phraseology and modern times because there's at least a couple of those that are a little bit different if you read them in like a first century text compared to the way that they've either been adapted to modern society or the way where occasionally astrologers will use sort of like euphemisms for certain things to soften it a little bit yeah these are really great words that are relevant I think you were saying this before Austin relevant to our experiences today yeah because like traditionally an ancient first century greco-roman society the sixth house was said to be one of the significations was slaves so that's obviously not relevant now in the like early 21st century for the most part however the sixth house does still continue to be relevant in a way just in a slightly different way for the term I uses subordinates like if you're somebody that owns a business those who work under you who are sort of subordinate to you often do show up in the sixth house yes I believe the polite term is employee yeah employee or employees okay not sick not subordinates so you don't use subordinate for um I mean I would usually say employee I would say staff and I think that applies in both a professional and a personal situation in terms of if you have a business and you have staff or you know some people when they run their home have a gardener or a cleaner or what-have-you and I think they would be sixth house yeah employees okay yeah all right well that's way better I heard of the reason I use subordinate is because I think that's also how they got to assigning animals and pets to the sixth house yes because it's like this if the seventh house is the first house is you the seventh house is the other or like a partnership the person that you were on a sort of equal footing with the six which is below in declining from the the seventh is those who are you're almost you're in some sort of partnership with but are in a role that is subordinate to you that is not necessarily power dynamic weight these people if there was a hierarchy or an organization shot you would be at a higher up place sure then then the individuals represented by that I think yeah I would describe it sure yeah all right so employees how does that how does that come up what does that actually mean well if you have staff like I know people who own businesses who have staff right and some of them have unfortunate 6,000 and they have crazy staffing problems so horrible time trying to get people to stay with people to do a good job yeah right people are always bringing drama into the office like if you yeah if you hire people to do things then you're six thousands more relevant in in terms of these significations yeah yeah and if you have a good a good seeks out then you might be able to find somebody who is really talented or fits exactly what you're looking for yeah exactly it'll be that'll be much easier for you yeah yeah and sometimes one of the things that's funny that comes up is even though some of the placements and a chart can indicate ongoing or recurring themes in a person's life sometimes certain placements can indicate events that are like one-time events when I'm done yeah just like at one time but a major event in the person's life that somehow comes to define it in some way that so if somebody wrote a biography about their your life they would like to mention this episode where this one thing happened that was an important or pivotal turning point hmm so let's say like a sixth house matter where the sixth house got activated but it was really bad and let's say you were you know into business but you hired somebody and they did something really terrible and it caused your entire business to go under or something like that due to a you know an employee versus let's say another situation where you hired this one person and that one person invented this new product that caused your business to take off and suddenly become wildly successful which never would have happened if you hadn't hired that one person yeah so there can be like one-time situations but they can really change the course of your life in some instances and it's important to keep that in mind because I think sometimes people when they're going through the houses and they're trying to think about whether that matches what their life can get distracted by saying well this isn't a continual thing I've only just had this one event but that's not something that always occurs all the time in my life yeah as far as what is most consistently relevant with the six health I was gonna say that's and that's the whole idea at least a big part of how I understand it is that the bad fortune is that it is considered bad fortune if you have a health condition or if you have a health problem and you know depending on your access to health services and health providers you can manage or even overcome but depending on the condition it may not be an overcomer ball condition it may be something that you live with yeah yeah and we talked about this a little bit already with the first house which represents both the body and physical Constitution as well as the mind or the character but it really comes up in the sixth house because traditionally they would really talk about like illness as well as injury as being major sixth house topics but definitely in the modern times in the 20th and 21st century the scope of the sixth house has been expanded not just to talk about things that are negative but also ways in which health can be maintained or won't in which like illnesses or injuries can be treated in constructive ways yeah but it's always the positive sixth house stuff is a response to negative to negative it's like oh I've got weak lungs I should do lung exercise yes right I've got bad knees I should make sure to like you know two things - not my eyes before I do stuff right I see the the sixth as oh the six can also be very bad for money it's those any get six house transit your faucet breaks the cars whatever it's those things which eat away the the physical stuff in your life it's to a certain degree it's a little bit of a place of entropy where it's like if you don't take care of your body it's gonna fall actually it's gonna fall apart anyway it isn't first roster yeah like if you don't take care of your if you don't pay your bills on time they're going to shut your lights off and so this is the Mars joy they're the the in many ways the best solution to the constant threat of entropy is to just take care of it yeah do you know do you a thing you do your yoga you know you make sure that you pay the bills on time you repair that step so you don't fall down it and you know and crack your skull the 6,000 in order to keep it in order to keep the natural entropy of material being from becoming a negative event and for for health in I think a useful simplification that's not an oversimplification is the first house is kind of like your hip points and then the 6000 so much damage you're taking yeah or your your relative to what degree you have immunized or addressed the factors which would attack you and do damage yeah anyway yeah and I think that's the key is that when one thing that confuses students is the first house seems to be about the body and somehow kind of connected to health but so is the six it is the the problem or the what is hurting the body if you like is going to come out of the sixth house in some way are usually speaking sure and so if you have a planet that maybe it does a bunch of great stuff for you but it also rules the six that can when that planet gets stimulated by transit or activated by Time Lord whatever it'll it'll cause a flare-up of whatever your flare-ups look like yeah and so though the ruler of the six takes on the disease or injury delivery responsibilities it might be Venus and it might be in a beautiful position and it's also delivering you know flowers and art and good times but it's got that job because it rules the sixth also causing a problem with sugar metabolism diabetes nothing along those lines because both Venus and Jupiter even though they are benefics if they are connected to the sixth house can still cause a problem in your body it may not be you know the Mars problem which can be like an accident or a surgery or what have you but yet Venus and Jupiter can still interfere with the good functioning of the physical yeah and any planet that rules the 6ad takes that off yeah sure and I do think there's a tendency for the sixth house to be more bodily type issues in terms of injuries or illnesses whereas the 12th house has some connection as well but can sometimes tend to be more you can also be more like afflictions of the mind like they could 100% at a really simple level you can just say if you're looking for mental health look at the twelfth first and then if you're looking for challenges to the mental health 12 challenges to the physical health six yeah and there's more to it than that but that's not a bad starting place I also I do concrete challenges or problems with the six it's visible problems that's actually I think that's what's on my handout is visible problems like like material you're like oh my back hurts yeah right whereas the twelve is like I'm just not happy yeah or I'm not sleeping well and I'm just not sure why yeah there's more of an abstract hard to pin down the six is like yeah I cut my hand making or I burn my hands up yeah yeah and part of the reason I think for that is that the sixth is still below the horizon and that bottom half of the chart which is more of the lunar hemisphere where the moon you know has its joy in the third and the nocturnal planets because that was something we didn't even mention at all that enjoys orientation yeah the planetary joy is the nighttime or nocturnal planets all have their joys in the bottom half of the chart because that's under the earth so the moon and the third Venus in the fifth and Mars in the sixth and the daytime or diurnal planets have their joys up in the top half of the chart in the day in the Sun to the ninth Jupiter to the 11th and to the 12 but I think this sets up a basic mind-body duality where mind and spirit tend to be in the top half and body tends to be in the bottom half and I think that's why originally in the very first sort of system of significations why they assigned both body and mind to the first house because with the whole sign house as part of it is above the horizon and part of is below so it's really a little bit of both and that's worth the body and that's what you are in some ways well yeah in a way that I think will be increasingly clearer in part two yes um the significations of the first six houses are all embodied yes they're all in tangible materials in having stuff and living and making stuff and having kids yeah yeah back hurt like those are all very embodied experiences yeah yeah so we talked about illness sometimes injury can come up and that can be like an acute injury like yeah the need for surgeries and things can come up with six house as well sure yeah and so it's worth contrasting the sixth and injury and ill health with the eighth because the eighth is the house of death yes and so the sixth tends to be systemic weaknesses and accidents but generally the sixth by itself won't kill you no it's the [ __ ] you got to deal with but you can usually recover from it yeah it can make us sick ya know etc etc but the the eighth the eighth is the house of death right you know feeling bad and you know having a busted I don't know a shoulder is not the same thing as death no yeah yeah it's not the same as like the cessation of life which is the eighth yeah so other types of injuries though just to make sure we're clear things like I don't know like a car accident or something in your back or going skiing and like you know going hitting a tree or something like that yeah like sudden acute injuries like breaking a bone or something yeah I'm just thinking about my perfections and when I broken bones yeah I am my last sixth house perfection you had some trepidation over but I ended up starting going to the gym kind of flexurally for the first time since like high school but I it was more of a productive like it didn't happen because I was trying to go out of my way to do it in terms of like oh it's sixth house I better focus on that it was well just like it was time to start getting getting older I need to start like maintaining my body and like warding off some of those long term difficulties if I'm not taking care of my health yeah and that's the that's the proactive Mars and it's joy yeah if you have you know like a lot of some like some a lot of these problems even if you know like there are chronic conditions that don't have a quick answer or may not even have an answer but they're still like what do you do to minimize the difficulties yes um like if you think about like getting sick right there's the like treating the cold or the flu once you have it but then it's like why did you get sick you're like well I was kind of eating like [ __ ] and drinking too much like there's like keeping the immune system strong is both a literal thing that's concerned with proactive 6,000 men ofor for the other difficulties if we're talking about the because the six if the six is related in any way with financial indicators it can be sickness of you know of one's financial health which is one's body on a different level and you know like paying your bills on time keeping books etc etc as a way to like keep that healthy yeah yeah and the only other thing we've talked a lot about the health and the illness but it may not just be you being unwell if you have some strong six house indications in your chart it may be that you work in a health or a medical related field my favorite claim look yes like it's a it's the ruler of the first and the tenth and it's placed in the sixth and it's like a benefit and it's also bonafide it's like the extremely the most well placed planet in the sixth ruling both career and the ascendant and person is a doctor that focuses on like patient care and things like that so they're working in a context of like people who are sick but it's not otherwise primarily manifesting as the native being sick themself it's them helping and acting as well you know being really interested in sickness well and therefore health yes yes so that's I think an important thing to know yet people who work in the medical or the health field right in some capacity yeah so that can definitely come up when you're talking about the sixth house and then the other more positive side of the sixth house we have to talk about that's become more prominent I think in modern times but I think it's definitely relevant as the idea of the sixth house having to do with work yes is that something you guys subscribe to yeah absolutely and I think it's a little bit to do with the Moz piece of like just do something but it's sort of distinction as it was first explained to me as like Mars is sort of not master the sixth house is like what we have to do you know all day every day kind of thing it's almost like what you need to do that can potentially feed the career attendant I think of the old Chris Rock meant about jobs and careers yeah oh yeah that's a good career being tenth yeah and just like labor a job being the sixth yeah it's like he's like you know not everybody has a career that's very true like everybody's got to work everybody's got a job of some kind yeah yeah and this does set up kind of a triad or a triangle which is one of the things I do think it's kind of although it's over emphasized it's still useful in modern astrology where they will talk about the second house being your income the sixth house being work and tenth house being career mmm-hmm and sometimes the interaction between those three houses of their rulers all relating to the overall picture or all being relevant in terms of if you're talking about a person's career in general yeah and not I think is something that may be worth being really clear for people too is that when we say when you know it is said that the sixth house is one of the more difficult houses or problematic houses that is from the perspective or the point of view of the first house in the chart but a planet in the sixth house will be making some kind of to the tenth and could potentially be in aspect to the Midheaven degree itself yeah which is like what do I do with this planet just put take it to your job or use it in your work in some capacity and you can get something out of that planet that otherwise might look bad or like it's in a bad place and that's the primary instances that I see where a person is able to have a sixth house planet that works out relatively well is it is mitigated by being in the sixth but being having a close aspect within three degrees to the degree of the Midheaven or to a planet that's in the tenth house that's something that's mentioned and like some of the Hellenistic text like Paulus I think polysix Alexandra eNOS and the fourth or fifth century that I've seen consistently work over and over again and practiced and when it planets in the difficult house as long as it's configured to an angle or an angular planet you'll tend to see even though there may still be problems a more positive manifestation overall than there might be otherwise mm-hmm yeah it'll put it to good use exactly it's put to good use but yeah just back to general cadency planets in the six have to deal with a bunch of [ __ ] I was gonna say you're like my back hurts or I got to do all this to keep my back from hurting and I do all that before actually even start work yeah and then you know I gotta go or you know like going like I don't know I think of you know when I worked at a fast-food restaurant when I was a teenager like I put all that work in and it's not like I was building a career yeah that's something you get with Cayden seasons where you spend energy just to maintain neutral yeah and so that you know you did all that work and you have none of the energy left over and you're just you just continue to be able to have food and shelter yeah you're kind of treading water and things yeah without without one of the primary signification or underlying conceptual meanings of kitten houses is dissipation of energy yeah and I'm yeah I'm trying to emphasize that well because yeah you know they're just planets in in in the six for example they just get it's tiring to be in the six very tiring there's a lot to do when you see that with planets transiting through the six is that people all of a sudden putting out more effort in terms of their everyday life they might we asked to work on another project at work or there's their help there's something going with their family or with children or something and their daily kind of you know tasks or responsibilities it's just more but you don't get the reward for it it's like do this extra work but nobody's giving you more money or benefits or anything but I do extremely sick yeah you know if if it's more than just a flu right if there's a chronic yeah addition you have to like do all this research and you see these different doctors and you try to take the medication a lot of work to try to just get back up to neutral yeah right your reward is not being sick yes yeah yeah all right so we've covered illness injury work subordinates or employees like even though it's a weird signification I do think pets occasionally do yeah that's not controversial no I've seen it yeah repeatedly okay when people have issues with their pets when they get pets when they have pets that are going to die when pets are like super important and the person's like a husband that when you when everyone says your cats live at the kitty cat Hilton I have a there's I have a funny example about that at least millionaire are like billionaire heiress who had like a dog and she would like feed the dog she had the ruler of the sixth in the second yeah and she would just like shower the dog with like valuable goods and dress it with a gold chains or gold silken dog doesn't care yeah well I mean it did because when she died Saturn went over the ruler of the sixth and in the paper it said that the dog was put on went from eating caviar each day to being put on a diet yeah of like eating Alpo or something like dog food that was literally so that was a funny but that might illustrate a broader point weirdly even though you don't think it should which is that was a Saturn transit over the ruler of her sixth house at the time and it was describing an experience that this other entity in her life was having which is the dog yes was experiencing that and even though that's a weird example you will see that happen sometimes where some to transit in your chart over a house or over the ruler of a house will describe something that's happening in the life of somebody around you but may not necessarily be affecting your life directly but it is affecting theirs and it's being reflected for some reason in their chart yeah like the by association yeah but no pets for sure okay not controversial I don't yeah we've been we've been talking about getting another cat since Jupiter's been in my sex hmm okay yeah oh yeah and when I've had Jupiter transits through my seeks like the cats are all going to the vet and having all these very costly things done hmm and Jupiter's they're normally so we usually do whatever my age thank you very spoiled all right ready yeah is that it for the sixth house as since we started talking about the sixth my back has started yeah like invoking it I think I've just kept you guys up too late tonight you're starting to fall apart so maybe it's we're aging now you know that we're not spring chickens yeah well I'm still quite young in my thirties right oh all right I think that's it guys in terms of this this is part one of our two-part series on these significations of the twelve houses we made it through houses one through six mm-hmm so that's all the conceptual yeah we got all the conceptual stuff out of the way which took more time so part two will be a little bit faster although we get to some interesting houses yeah yeah yeah so still plenty to go through so I did want to mention plug really quickly because all of us teach stuff on this like we're all doing this off at the top of top of our heads because we've been teaching it and doing consultations and classes and lectures on all of this for for years and years now Kelly you have to have classes and like lectures and stuff on the houses yeah I have my beginner my practical beginner astrology course which is a six-part training goes into the houses and I also recently did a webinar called rulership of the houses for beginners so if anybody is struggling to get their head the whole what is this ruler of a house business and how does that Factory and I've got a webinar and they just want my website Kelly's astrology calm okay yeah Austin what about you yeah houses is one of the modules in my year one program and the set of recordings of me doing houses is also available as independently purchase purchasable module okay and what's your website my website is Austin copper calm brilliant and I of course wrote a book Hellenistic astrology the study of fate and fortune and when I say available in fine bookstores everywhere I just mean go to Amazon and buy you just yeah basically Amazon it's like six seven hundred pages and it has a whole section on the origins of the signification of the houses planets in houses the rulers of houses it's a very actually the rules of the houses yeah thank you I appreciate that I have a bunch of delineations former Turia's that show you the the earliest all the way from the 7th century delineations of what it means for the ruler of one house to be in another house from literally the earliest source that survives on that so that chapter alone is very useful for this topic and then I also teach an online course on Hellenistic astrology where I have multi hour lectures that go through and show hundreds of example charts that I've found of different permutations of the ruler of like the seventh house and the tenth and here's a client chart with that or here's a celebrity example with that and so on and so forth because that's the thing with the head with the twelve houses is once you have a good grasp of them when you start playing around with the rules of the houses like that's where astrology just gets so magical and so unique and personal be rose you can of course assess that you just but you can take the signs out and just look at how the topics and life get connected based on where the rules of the houses are yeah and then that is like a whole piece in and of itself that has only been discussed in the last maybe fifteen or twenty years as the traditional revival has happened yeah exactly so that's very important and yeah you can find out more information about my Hellenistic astrology course at courses dot the astrology school calm all right guys thanks for joining me tonight let's go get some some food somewhere and then we'll be back tomorrow to do part two yes thanks everyone for watching bye awesome thanks for all the listeners thanks all the patrons who support us through our page on patreon and thanks for listening this episode's we'll see you again next time thanks to the patrons and sponsors who helped to support the production of this episode of the podcast through a page on patreon com including patrons christine.stone and Nate Craddock as well as the Astro gold astrology app available at Astro Gold yo the Portland school of astrology at Portland astrology org the honeycomb collective personal astrological almanacs at honeycomb CO and also the International Society for astrological research which is hosting an astrology conference in Denver Colorado September 10th through the 14th 2020 and you can find out more information about that at Easter 2020 org and the Northwest astrological conference which is happening in Seattle May 21st through 25th 2020 and you can find out more information about that at Norwalk net for more information about how to sign up to become a patron of the podcast go to patreon.com slash astrology podcast [Music] [Music]

Channel: The Astrology Podcast

Views: 345,351

Rating: 4.8823528 out of 5

Keywords: houses astrology, astrology houses, twelve houses, 12 houses astrology, The Astrology Podcast, Chris Brennan, Kelly Surtees, Austin Coppock, 1st house, 2nd house, 3rd house, 4th house, 5th house, 6th house, astrology, astrology basics, learning astrology, birth chart, natal astrology, whole sign houses

Id: bddnuFMkmpQ

Length: 226min 58sec (13618 seconds)

Published: Wed Nov 27 2019

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[u/LunarLampLight]

What a great surprise, I'd been hoping Chris, Kelly and Austin would do a breakdown of the houses like this because their podcast on the signs was so good. 3 hours and 46 minutes of traditional astrology! Pure Heaven!

Thanks for linking it :D