Should We Ban NHS Staff From Striking? | Good Morning Britain

foreign [Music] College of Nursing has accused the government of bullying and said nurses will not be gagged it comes after the health secretary Steve Barkley tells the union to call off its strike by midday or face legal action well this the long-running dispute overpay and conditions so we asked you should nurses and other NHS staff be allowed to strike or legally banned the police can't go on strike the military can't go on strike let's have a look at the Twitter poll you see it's hugely unpopular that idea I wonder whether Steve Barkley is just fighting the wrong fight right now joining us now to discuss this GP Anita Raja who supports the strikes but nurse practitioner Naomi Bennett is a member of the Royal College of Nursing and is against them very good morning to you both Naomi um your leadership had recommended that your union accept the deal but the union members rejected it you think presumably that your leadership was right and that the strikes should not go ahead can you tell us why um I I feel that anything that supports patience and safeguards their outcomes um I'm in support of um I I just almost feel that it's it's going on um you know it's bordering on um potential harm to patients and I think that's that's what a lot of us um also feel we just feel that anything that will eliminate harm to patients and that will enable us to get on with our job is is is better so for that reason do you support them striking nurse the strikes by nurses being made illegal altogether because strikes in your view cause harm or about to cause harms patients they should legally not be allowed to go in yeah I um I I believe if if the courts decide in favor of the government um and also it safeguards patience for many future harm um I would be in support of anything that's put in place to protect patients um and and help um the Health Service I don't feel that um striking necessarily is helping at the moment and it's it's basically leaving patience um at risk and obviously we're going to nursing because we want to do no harm we want to cause no harm and we want to be able to give our patients the best outcomes and it just doesn't seem like these strikes are um effective in that way at the moment and Naomi on the days when there have been strikes what did you do did you have to work harder to cover the um the jobs of people who are on strike well obviously I do believe in Fair pay um but yeah it is it is critical when the workforce is under staff it's already understaffed and struggling um going out on strike also compounds that and and can affect patient safety we want to improve patient outcomes we don't want people frightened of not being able to get the care that they they they deserve um on on specific days it's it's not really fair on the general public and I don't think it's um you know it doesn't seem to be having the effect that the union had probably gone in for and also the union leader was in agreement and of that settlement that the the government um offered so that makes you wonder where when is it going to end where is it going to end um like I said nursing is a vocation I'm not saying that um you know obviously we need to be paid um well we've got the the the high standards of um living at the moment but I just thing um should patients be at the detriment of these actions Dr Anita Raja this is really interesting no really interesting talking to Naomi because she's a nurse she's a member of the Union you know but we know that popular support is still on the side of nurses striking but I wonder how many more people might start to think you know the if these strikes cause harm they shouldn't go ahead you don't think they should be banned that's right that's right because first of all you know you drew this comparison between Military Officers police officers and NHS workers which would be nurses and doctors but I do want to clarify that doctors and nurses are employees not Crown servants if the military were to go on a strike it would be a state of Anarchy the country would be in a state of mutiny and it would be a threat to the public hence they can't strike but when it comes to nurses and doctors even despite the Draconian Union trade laws they do have the right to strike if they're not happy about the situation that the NHS is in right now and if we were to look at the situation somebody needs to whistle blow somebody needs to highlight that pay restoration is strongly linked to recruitment retention and after all patient care 43 000 people have died in 2022 alone because the ambulance couldn't get to them on on time which means that 120 people were dying every single day before the ambulance could even get to them to pick them up now 250 000 people have died alone in the past 13 years due to austerity you we know that NHS austerity is a big issue here we know that the Staffing is dire 50 000 nurses short 5 000 nurses in the past 12 months have left for other countries 35 percent of your UK chain doctors have left for other countries in the past 12 months and we are sat here thinking that we're going to drag the NHS workers into court and make it more difficult I think Steve Barclays on the wrong side over here Dr Roger um clearly the energy is under huge pressure nurses pay doctor's pay has gone down in real terms other NHS workers but also this is the first nurses strike for you know um very long time in history really but in previous strikes the um the union was quite careful to say that they were going to maintain um standards and cover they're now saying there will be no exemptions even for emergency care for Cancer Care I just wondered even if you're supporting the strikes do you think it's wise of the nurses to be withdrawing their labor in a e now I'll tell you something you've raised a very good question here I didn't I want to say that it took 106 years for the nurses to walk out so that's a long long long long long time and it is the job of the NHS trusts to get cover in case the nurses are striking which they are able to do the NHS trust the government is happy to spend billions and millions of pound on Locum staff Bank staff and they will be able to do that let me assure you um yes it's going to affect the NHS trust in terms of money monetary loss yes but when it comes to Patient Care let me give you some evidence in the past there has been absolutely no evidence to support that strikes have ever affected patient care because usually what tends to happen is that if there is a doctor strike the consultant will step down to an sa2 level to a junior doctor level if the nurses are striking for instance they'll be other the nurses that will be recruited from banks that would happily be doing that job so I don't think that that's going to be a major issue I mean there's absolutely no reason to suggest that but you did say to us a moment ago that part of the crisis in the NHS is it's very hard to recruit doctors and nurses and they are going leaving the professional going to get jobs abroad I just wonder how easy is it to recruit these Extra Agency nurses and is it going to cost lots and lots of money yes it will so the government needs to sit down and think you know if we are now employing doctors from abroad back in the day when used to come to the UK for instance I am an international medical graduate there was a very robust system you had to take exams there was a licensing system now you can come to the UK nurses and doctors are recruited through different routes where there are exemptions that are made so the public is not aware of the way the recruitment system works now so yes it's very easy to recruit people but retention is an issue so these people will use the UK as a stepping stone they'll stay here and they'll move on to better places because if you've worked in the NHS for one year now countries like New Zealand will welcome you with open arms so what has UK become UK has become an excellent training ground for nurses and doctors that become much more valuable once they've come into the system so they can go to other countries that pay them better um Naomi you're the nurse in this situation the Doctor Is In disagreement with you how does that make you think yeah I think like the the doctor just hit the nail on the head it's all around retention and there's lots of issues and problems in the NHS there's lots of issues and problems within each hospital all hospitals are not the same the the the the the the the shortage of pay and the pay issue is not Universal some hospitals are better managed if we deal with management some management some managers are in post that they shouldn't be in some managers are being paid quite well so I think we need to look at the structure and the the organizational aspects of the NHS hospitals and look at some that are doing better it's not a universal problem issue if it was all nurses would be striking and I know that there's far bigger problems within the NHS such as bullying and harassment and retention like you said no amount of money is going to enable a nurse to tolerate some of the treatment and the behaviors that they're being exposed to if the strike goes ahead in a few days time will you be going to work and how will you feel about your colleagues who are on strike well I'll absolutely be going to work because I will always put my patients um safety and outcomes first and like I said I do respect others that want to take to the picket line and strike that's up to them um but me I'll just carry on doing my nursing as I um that's what I do I I'm a nurse and I'm proud to be a nurse and I you know yeah thank you Naomi we really appreciate you talking to us today and to Dr Roger as well for for joining us and we'll find out what happens in the legal judgment about whether the strike is lawful at midday today thank you very much yeah thanks both very much indeed let's have a look at the update on the poll that we are running this morning here we go drum roll please um yeah should nurses be legally stopped from striking remains stubbornly at no almost 80 percent of you um and only a minority back legal action against nurses very interesting debate thank you

Channel: Good Morning Britain

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Id: 9ROcKVWg2IE

Length: 12min 18sec (738 seconds)

Published: Mon Apr 24 2023