Seymour M. Hersh in conversation with David Remnick - The New Yorker Festival

good afternoon I'm David Remnick from The New Yorker and we're welcome to a conversation with Seymour Hersh if you're here I think you know who he is but sy Hersh is quite simply the greatest investigative journalist of his era and he is from my life possessed not only of the reporting Ameren energy of 16 hummingbirds locked in a in a cage but also a rare thing a moral sense he's an absolute pleasure to work with and I'm delighted that he could come to New York and and speak with me here so let's let's get right down to cases you had a piece in the magazine a couple of weeks ago on Iran a week and a half ago and you're telling us so your sources are telling you that the American contingency plans war plans if there's going to be one have shifted from a strike against potential and and real nuclear facilities in Iran to shifting the vocabulary the notion of what a conflict would be with Iran has conflict with terrorism the Revolutionary Guards and the rest you've written a series of pieces now over time I guess over the course of at least a year 32 months 32 it's a long period of time about the shift in strategic thinking in the oppression as the United States government what do you think is going to happen and what do you think is not going to happen or do you have no idea doesn't matter what I think I mean I don't know if this doesn't I mean it matters what what I can learn or what I know it doesn't matter what I think because you know I think a lot of thoughts I do worry I got worried yesterday reading the New York Times about North Korea because my friends tell me that they had to get North Korea off the plate before they can move that another they just had to get that issue out of the way so they can have they can make a case in turn exit they're really looking for their allies they want they want they want to get the Brits on board they're trying the Germans they'll never get but maybe the French to go in with them on a bombing if they do it wrong you know yeah in Iran and so the North Korea thing was fascinating it was fascinated by that New York Times piece yesterday that wasn't yesterday or two days ago in which the lead of the piece said it was from the State Department correspondent there and so it was there was the lead of the piece said the the agreement with North Korea is seen as a model for Iran for the settlement in Iran no sourcing and the settlement with North Korea involved this it involved a lot of fuel oil at least 50 to 100 million dollars in cash or lease equivalent and fuel oil promise of diplomatic recognition a promise of some sort of security guarantees down the road and and Bush said in the piece he was quoted as saying in the piece that yes he'll talk to the Iranians that one the condition for talking to them about their nuclear enrichment is they have to stop what we want to negotiate before we do it so the spin was that they they got rid of North Korea as a model for Iran but nothing in the story backed up the story because what are we giving the Iranians as I quoted somebody is saying in the piece we're giving the Iranians three American aircraft carriers off the coast so there's no you know that's that's that's the bargaining but but North Korea is a very different condition than Iran but you but David you got to get it off the table I understand but what I'm saying is what Iran needs or wants is a very very different condition from a Stalinist enclosed state that has nothing economically nothing has no exposure to the world Iran is it a triumphalist position in the Middle East it won the Iraq war if anybody won the Iraq war Iran right so what does Iran one from the United States they want love they want us to say we recognize you we appreciate you you're a player we take you seriously we're going to deal with you straightforwardly as they say we we have the same that are the Iranian position would be I mean forget Ocwen need a jean he's you know he's a disaster but hold on yeah I'll just say if you can dismiss him a second because he's not very popular inside and I know the Brits the Brits basically have told me at a reasonably high level that one argument forgetting doing some sort of cross-border thing would be that to convince Lara Johnny the the senior negotiator of nuclear weapons for the nuclear whatever the peaceful purpose is whatever it is with the for the Iranians raphson Johnny who's been the opposition to Ockham D de John finally you know maybe if the Americans did something the Brits believe that the the Russia Johnny would go to the Supreme Leader and said let's get rid of this guy he's too much of a menace he's just bad news although he's speech which nobody read that the UN was sort of conciliatory but nobody read it so it doesn't matter no be published yeah sort of but there were some points that were interesting I mean it's a quote the poet what what has love got to do with it he is the president of the country and he know his rhetoric make maybe if you're generous minded exaggerated or for certain kind of performance for political constituencies but he's the president of the country I realized there's conflicting political streams in Iran but there he is how do you go about expressing even tactical or strategic love as you put it to a country headed by him what do you give him what is it what is it possible to give to a leader who makes the pronouncements he makes about any number of things all obvious what's the alternative what's the alternative to saying we don't have to deal with him but there are other people to deal with in the country no obviously how what is the what is the way you speak to diplomatic sources what is the alternate stream of behavior to deal with in this White House there is no alternative stream of behavior there's only there's only there's only there's only one way going it's just a question of whether they can squeeze in something or not this guy wants to do it there's no question he wants to do it I mean he personally wants to do it I think Cheney goes along he being Bush but aren't you surprised then that it turned around on North Korea because that would have seemed no the North Korea thing they felt I was told over a year ago they've always felt that you have to clear North Korea I'll tell what else scares me the other thing they've always been saying on the inside is you got to get rid of the Brits in the South the South is law fostro totally the Brits have no function there they have no control there and as long as you have British soldiers there you can't really bomb it because if you hit Iran I'm talking about crazy now crazy talk if you hit Iran the British soldiers can be easily seized as hostages there's no way to protect them you there they've gone back to bases if you ever got rid of all the Brits that would raise the warning light for me another thing morning light would be the Israeli election you know that's another issue Barack won if he calls for an election he's probably not going to go through an election without doing something about Iran because he's got the Bibi not today your problem you know he's got to do something so that's another warning sign none of this could happen but if it does we're in real trouble is a nuclear Iran if there is hollering phenomenon you know even if it's text five years or six or seven years you know again that's a judgment call in the sense that do you really think in Israel you know from Schnee who you know you've you've read what he writes the you know the the argument inside Israel is it's really not about a bomb it's about the end of Zionism that in Israel they're feeling very strongly now that a bomb an Iranian bomb if it's demonstrated there is a bomb and you know would be a lot of people and a lot of the middle upper middle class in Israel say that's enough for me I'm going to Argentina instead of my business there and I'm gonna make you know it's become a very huge commercially dozen or London or getting it out of there I'm gonna leave and so the fear that there very sophisticated fear that is articulated by SHINee and others is that a bomb will just add to the feeling that scientism is gone but it isn't per se a bomb because one bomb what one bomb means the end of you know how many bombs is Israel have so I don't think it's that you know it's funny there are people who say to me we can't let them have a bomb and they cannot live without a bomb so there's the conundrum and that what does that mean boom there's some people inside that say that who believe that they want a bomb they're not there yet but they don't think the Iranians will stop till they get a bomb which could be again as I say the intelligence is five years away at minimum five maybe more maybe less on the other hand we can't let them it's it seems to me like it's a dead on course but nobody knows how it's gonna play out is non-proliferation than a dead letter the the in an international effort and non-proliferation a dead letter because in the Arab world what is said in the Middle Eastern world would have said is that if Iran can develop this bomb surely Cairo surely an x + y + Z that that that what you'll have is a completely nuclearized middle-east well you certainly have a nuclearized Pakistan right now and that's and it's frightening as hell as scary as yeah like not only a Pakistan is miniaturized sort of interesting that Pakistan could do what the Iranians could not Pakistan was able to solve all of the technical problems not only of developing the the last report of the International Atomic Energy Agency was really pretty amazing the one that was issued August 30th the Iranians have not been able to get above three point six seven enrichment they need about ninety percent enrichment to get to the bomb and five percent of Richmond to even run a peaceful atomic you know purpose reactor for energy if that's what they're doing and they're nowhere and it's interesting that the Paks could do so well which of course makes the many in America believe there is a parallel secret program sort of like a lot of Woody Allen movie you know where they run around my little robots under the ground whichever one it was but there isn't one apparently we've looked hard we can't find it so what you see is what you have meanwhile here's Pakistan that's miniaturized bombs so they're small enough to be put in warheads that can be put on a bomber planes you know they're they're tactical fighters and probably 80 to 100 warheads now I mean wow yeah let's put it this way George Bush hasn't been particularly good for the national security of our country or the world and but you know he's not the only problem there is you know there is other problems in the world and we it's losing the moral force that's them to me that the idea that America stood for something in terms of international disarmament and proliferation our wait meant something our wait meant something and even in terms of human rights in terms of Geneva Convention we were forced for something that's really is that's shifting issues here but that's a serious sort of retrograde you know we're all going to be so ashamed whenever comes out about Gitmo when it all comes out of what we've done we're all gonna be so ashamed of what we've done in the name of America you know and well let's go back to that I'm trying to get away from that me all those questions to which I don't have an answer okay well three years ago you were responsible for as a reporter for our knowledge of probably the most horrifying moral news as it were from from Iraq and that was the Abu Ghraib prison scandal are you after all the outrage you provoked are you satisfied even remotely with the effect it had if any on the administration oh my god you can just see in the from The Times story this week no they you know it's interesting about the president he keeps on saying the time story about documents in the Justice Department two more documents written in o5n Bush's reaction to it in the last couple days saying this is not for change the same reaction as Abu Ghraib it's you know we don't torture it you know it's interesting we're in the business of words and words means something to us and what's amazing about this president it words mean absolutely nothing to him they're just a convenience they're just a vehicle words or we don't torture and what they do is they change but you know David I knew about Abu Ghraib about four or five months before I could write about I just learned about it I'd learned how bad it was an Iraqi general told me in Damascus he should have mentioned it to me I you're a busy guy yeah you got it you got to pick covers anyway yes I still haven't gotten my telegram from OC's Medina job but I'm sure it's the assurance and he hasn't gotten out of the bathroom but anyway where were we the why avoid a good time yeah right well um but I'm talking to a guy in Baghdad in fall of in Damascus of an Iraqi general that we missed somebody we missed I I get to know some of these guys through the people who were in the UN process remember after the 91 more we part of the peacekeeping agreement agreement the settlement was we had a UN team go in there of about 40 different nationalities go in and so I got to know those people doing reporting in the 90s for The New Yorker and they didn't they through others got to know their counterparts Iraqi generals so when when the war everything sort of ended when we won in April and all of a sudden for a few months he had that wonderful summer where email shops opened up in Baghdad it looked like it was going to be you know really look pretty amazing you could make contact so I made contact with a lot of guys and one of them I was seeing in over Christmas in oh three and in Damascus and he told me about Abu Ghraib then what he said was this he said I can just tell you this about this prison he said the woman the the the woman the young woman and mothers who are in the prison write to their fathers and brothers and say please come kill me I've been defiled and in that society you know once whatever it is I don't know whether it's GI is playing grab-ass with girls in the shower I don't know what they're talking about what did the file he meant it could have been just seeing him I know there were photographs of the guys would take pictures of them and showers and stuff like that it could have been just that or something more so you got a sense of how the culture of the class of cultures was pretty bad and in reporting on it for the next couple of months which I did nobody mentioned rules or regulations I nobody here all the stuff they came out about memos being written about what you could or cannot do it was just do what you want don't kill anybody unless you didn't get caught how did this happen you've been reporting for a long time your career didn't begin with Vietnam but it certainly it was an incredible launching point for you and you so you've seen a lot of American behave you're in a lot of ugly situations me live for example you live for example but in there so there have been prisoner-of-war situations on the american side in the in the time that you've been reporting how did this possibly happen what what it what do you where sources come up with for not just a detention explanation but a moral one 9/11 payback anger fear I've just read a memoir written by talking to Jane Mayer about it yesterday she knew right away who it was I was very impressed there was a Turkish German prisoner of Gitmo for five years who was written a memoir to be published I just got a galley of it and very bright guy either that or somebody helped him really smart very interesting and he said something pretty amazing do you remember those photographs when we first captured prisoners and we would the horrible photographs that we chained him in airplanes they used to fly him from that bag Bagram in Afghanistan at the Gitmo a Guantanamo and they would be all chained and and they had masks over their head he figured out you know I know what it's about the reason they have these masks over our head they're afraid of us they think we're gonna bite him they're really afraid and he figured out it took him a little while to understand what was going on in the prison the guards and the officers and the Americans were afraid we were afraid it was a tremendous fear we had a collective feared so you strike out at what you can and what you really need then at those moments is tremendous moral leadership you remember John Walker Lindh a 17 year old kid who was caught in Taliban a lot of kids when they're 17 act out you know they do dope or you know they act out are they're his parents were divorced they drink they do stuff this guy you know he learned Arabic and went to join the Taliban pretty serious acting out almost like a New Yorker yeah you know Eastern California but we now know that there wasn't much to him he really wasn't an you know big he hadn't really he didn't really know anything there was this this American CIA guy that got killed trying to interrogate him and I've talked to his lawyer about it the CIA guy here's John Walker Lindh is living with the Taliban speaking Arabic and the American knew he was an American they could I guess they he we had some intelligence um we started to speak to him in English if he'd answered him in English his Taliban buddies would have killed him because he would have been a spy you know English you're an American me to know that and so anyway he gets 20 years but in between this is in the fall he gets in front of all of us he gets shot at one of those bad bad early battles Sharif at one of those battles and whatever the town was near outside of Kabul temple and he's dragged to Bagram in the this this American base and he's put into a shed it's it's warm he's put into a shed naked with holes cut in so the soldiers could come and try and urinate take pictures and he's not treated for five days pictures stories about it every day the violations of the Geneva Convention are so great in his case no outcry from the press or all of us well none of us at that point Wow go get him so that was an attitude we all had which was we were frightened we were scared disabilities fell down we were as I'm angry and so there was a collective sense you really needed then tremendous moral leadership from your government you really did you needed somebody to say when have you ever seen that in your lifetime never and reward does that I mean right now that we're in the middle of it there's a kind of the argument and discussion about not just on the left but but really wide-ranging is about the uniqueness of George Bush's failures in regard to what you're talking about but when has it ever been 180 degrees in the other way well certainly if you go and read the literature from from the Vietnam War not so much at the actual time there was wonderful books written afterwards I remember revolutions in green some guy at the University of Iowa the the some of the guys who did the torture with in Vietnam we were running you know electrodes and the genitals all over the place and torturing people like crazy right in front of us and so you I guess the answer is that war is such an extraordinary device and that you know one of the things we don't do or any better than anybody else in history and that's not a very good track record but it's all the same and I end up I ended up finishing one of my books I did a couple books on me they want about the incident the cover-up by ended up I think the last line literally of the book was the the the kids who did the shooting were as much victims as the people they shoot so I have if you meant Lindy England the famous thumbs-up and thumbs-down and had a conversation with her addressed as you know in civilian clothes you would think it's a perfectly appropriate young woman you know not horrible not capable of this kind of stuff so that's one of the things that this is the young guarded young guard that was in the photographs right and Appa great one of them if you met the upper grade people I've talked to a couple of them Pleasant bright articulate not at the top of the curve you know they came from a lower middle-class America army reserved you know they they joined the reserve to get a couple hundred bucks a month for whatever you know beauty school or whatever beers on Saturday night you wouldn't see them as monsters as they appeared to be so you know war is such an extraordinary thing and to select the choose to go to war is really a big decision and it's often made so cavalierly and the other thing that always troubles me is thinking like a nickel time moralist is there's no learning curve you know we went into a war in a different culture back in the in the in the 60s in Vietnam where culture that we didn't understand when which we're not seeing an army in which there was inevitable tremendous violence against the population and right now so you say to yourself when in with what's going on in Iraq and I do think the lancet stuff about 600,000 I've actually a statistician about their statistics and how they did it I've been told they were the most conservative Lance it's a very good medical journal when they 600,000 people in their survey dead that's not to be taken lightly given the way the statistical method they used and since then there's been another study it said says it's more so when we start in this country when do we start talking about this war in terms of morality is my question and what a disappointment that it doesn't come up in the political debate with the Democrats I mean are we I'm I'm not talking about the Third Reich I'm not making an analogy to any other war any other culture there was every time is different but is there some moral culpability you know what's going on now I'm there with those people today in The Times is the story another once again and 25 we claim 25 insurgents they say 25 woman and children killed you know you know how it goes this we saw that meal I was reported in the front page of the New York Times I think 553 people were killed by her soldiers in a day of murder and in the next day's new york times it was described as a victory with 128 Vietcong kill page one three weapons captured by the way in the story they said which is already a funny statistic and so I don't know I I don't know I think we're pretty lost right now in this country just in terms of who we are and where we're going on torture when you talk to sources and and and a range of sources but you know and you know my story you should know that a New Yorker nobody can I can't deal with people that won't talk to a checker and I've had some very good people that said just as a matter of security they won't and the only people I talked to are people that talk to The New Yorker fact checkers who are a group another story is just to fill this out but at some point in the editing process Amy Davidson who is sighs direct editor and/or the checker will give me what's called a source list you know who this retired four-star general is or who this person with what phrases to be as close connections to the somebody I said they flew in a urinal and so we do but we also were fully cognizant of your frustration with this and try to get it as close to something that is real and as indicative as we can without getting that person fired or go against their wishes on their need for not just gratuitous wish for and anonymity but let me let me get to a question here you talk to people about a lot of things one of them is torture is there any in Bivens within those people about torture as a method of deriving information in other words we're now at the point you and I would probably as good liberal gentlemen agree that torture usually provides nothing but wished for information that if you beat the crap out of somebody enough they will tell you yes they're going to do X Y & Z and we've seen with in Jane Mayer's reporting about Khalid Sheikh Mohammed that he was ready to confess to everything from the killing of the Archduke Ferdinand on down on the other hand does it ever work and does the Jack Bauer you know plane in the air scenario really have no relevance to the real world there's probably a moment in the field when you first capture somebody that that's the moment of importance the first hour two hours when if you can get something and you usually get something not by duress usually get something by being nice that's always been the you know there's classic stories about famous famous in the Germans head and what is being nice to me I'm giving them a cigarette talking to them trying to give them a cigarette and all of a sudden they're getting up getting old but you're not gonna get it you're not gonna get it by busting him either you're not gonna get you'll get some information but he'll never be reliable generally that's absolutely sure no you're not absolutely sure as I said Bill Clinton gave an interview and he said he kept it fuzzy on this question he didn't you didn't eliminate and then Hillary was asked this at a debate with that saying that it was you know David and she contradicted it I actually know people who've done it and what happens is this who've done the interrogation let me tell you what it is it's its first well we don't actually some of the worst stuff we don't physically do we have allies to do we watch through two-way mirrors and we direct it we direct others to do it which is one way we can avoid the problem the whole question of what's torture and what isn't because we're not doing it we're farming it out and just for the no to subcontracting that's not and by the way anything more and the idea that you can let the CIA do something that you don't let other people do as my friends in size say to me one size fits all once you know what the CIA can do you all do it you can all do that but I've actually had we have some of the that we have these special guys SEALs Delta Force and the army has a secret unit that we're not supposed to talk about above and beyond the Delta Force another unit that operates totally undercover and they do some interrogations and these are guys the good ones are what they call the o5 the majors and Lewton AV commanders and lieutenant Colonel's who get real mas to go to go to graduate schools they come back and some of the Special Forces guys you know if you're really good you're really pretty bright it's sort of an interesting place to be and you talk to them who have done torture and here's what they say it's very painful to listen to some of them they say what do you call it when you interrogate somebody very hard for a couple days and then you leave them alone with bad injuries for two days and he dies am i murder what happens if I get called before the Senate Intelligence Committee where is it authorized for me to do that and what's the difference we have now delegated to the Special Forces in 12 countries this president they have the right to shoot on sight they have a right to make a determination in 12 countries without talking to the Ambassador or the CI Chifa station 12 countries 12 obviously Iraq is one Iran and you know what you will but a lot of other countries North Africa you can kill the target on sight what's the difference it you can killing them anyplace if I see him in a market and killing me in a prison I have had these conversations with people in the field it's very depressing and they are horrified by what they're doing and then we have people in the field right now in the war soldiers they're the the treatment of choice for a good night's sleep is ambien 2 3 you know it's just you know we're gonna pay we're gonna pay like hell for this war look obviously the Iraqis are paying like hell for this war we're gonna pay like hell domestically - would you know the paranoids gets a friendly we're gonna pay for it your career began again with me lion and as a police report and it took it took the president President Bush many years to finally come around to making Vietnam analogies with Iraq I mean it was at his his great convenience at that when he finally did what analogies do you draw with your experience of Vietnam as opposed to the Iraq war well the one big analogy is he if you talk to kids who actually are company commanders or platoon leaders in Vietnam the problem always was you never saw the enemy you walk around and you know over a month or two months you you'd lose 10% of your buddies through land mines or bullets and you never saw you never saw anybody uniform to kill so you began to start killing people the gratuitous violence the same story and after I did the albergue rape story you know everybody has every kid or if I have one here I think everybody has I had to pay extra for to get a phone without a camera but everybody has one of these in Vietnam I mean in Iraq and so I started getting photographs after a burglary because I became a focal point for a lot of people to expiation if you will or you know just few you know expirations probably as good a word as any and people just wanting to get it off them and in one case we do patrols through cities and you go through the same city and then bradley's vehicles with soldiers in the back and all of a sudden you you you see a bunch of kids in the village you pass out bubble gum the soldiers you know one thing about Americans were very open and friendly we are up to a point at the beginning anyway and and then a hundred yards later a an ie D goes off and six your buddies or killed or wounded and all the other guys when that happens run out of the other two vehicles and anybody that's moving they shoot they ran out and they saw a bunch of people running in the field and they shot it up and it was a soccer game they dragged the bodies and they dumped some RPGs rocket for grenade launchers and some weapons there and they reported as thirty insurgents and go off and what am I supposed to do with that if I pursue that everybody in that vehicle gets a murder charge and it isn't murder it's just you know it's murder at some level and so I have to sit there and worry about that one you know you know what I mean it's just it's that's the that's the same analogy the same analogy is that it always ends up being against the people because when you fight a guerrilla when you fight a war in another society where there's no organized opposition it's you know to go willy-nilly into that and my god if they go into Iran the consequences are gonna be much worse do you set any sense of the administration having been Eve either on a moral level a political level or even more coldly a strategic level about about the war in Iraq David right now it's let's see it's about there's one I have there's seven hundred and thirty eight days and twenty two and a half hours to the next president has sworn it that's all I think about all right and tomorrow morning they'll be one less day and that's good other than that you know I mean that's all no no they I firmly I think this president I believe this president I do believe him when he says he what he's mean the purity I don't know I don't know I don't know whether it's actually had breakfast with somebody from the inside in Washington Tuesday more should explain what from the inside some guy who knows a lot of in the Pentagon leadership Pentagon I have to fudge it up and you know and everyone said well somebody I we've had this one but everyone's well somebody idea worth will show up in an amazing prominent way in the news remember I get twits from David why don't you tell this guy to take this job on the inside you know but anyway this guy he said we now in the we talked about east are my officers in the Pentagon they now use the word messy honored for Bush you know so I don't know whether it's I think Bush more less uses the word messy on you know I don't you know sometimes I describe I rotate between he's talking to God and he wants to do with his father didn't do or it's a step thirteen of a twelve-step you know recovery program you know going I mean I just don't know what it is but I'll tell you something he believes that everybody I don't I know something about Cheney I can hear Cheney indirectly I can i I hear his music I know I know where he is explain what that means I have people who who are near him who you know who knows who's here but I have people who actually participate in stuff what would the president it's not true I had one general once who talked to me Amy Davidson will remember this he just said to me I've known him for years he said I had it I can't I'm not gonna work for this guy another day and he told me some things about meetings with him and the President Cheney when the checkers called him and I said to him welcome to the next world you know I said you're now gonna be called by a checker I have a great my favorite checking story is there's a guy there's a guy that I knew that's on the army planning staff and he got it one day I called his wife up I called him a couple months and his wife said to me oh god he's got another promotion he's really so I don't think he's available it's gonna be too hot for him to talk to you but he's he'll be back later tonight so I call him later at night he said no right now just leave me alone right now he's got a double promotion you know I don't want to start blabbing about what I'm doing and do me a favor tell the checkers because he's so pleasant they were calling him up when they had questions about how many how big is a battalion because when he can't really answer their questions about nomenclature anymore but this guy I said that you're gonna get a call and when the checker called he didn't mind the stuff about how terrible the war is how stupid it is but anything about him with the president and Cheney that he didn't want anything written about so I I guess it was last week the White House press representative as a wonderful that it's all over YouTube I forget her name Perino I guess it is had not nice things to say about you and and this is not unprecedented I remember one of her predecessors in the Defense Department somebody we dealt with quite a lot described stories that you had written as crap thrown against a wall and and see what will stick to see what will stick and etc etc etc you get this with some frequency and you've got it with some frequency over I don't know 35 years um does it hurt your feelings no it doesn't and what about what other journalists go after you I don't like that less I like that less but you know you've come to terms with it you know and you know it's lonely at the top David you know I know you know I'm just saying what can I do like you know and what I don't like is when you're talking to somebody who spent eight years or nine years at the New York Times sort of being the the the the ketchup guy on Watergate and I did a lot of stuff on intelligence and certainly had a lot of fun at the New York Times about a lot of great stories I don't like the fact that the New York Times pretty much knows what I can do and this kind of sources I have must one what it does in the 15 prizes therein in eight or ten years I don't like when they don't pay much attention it's sort of a compliment to the New Yorker when they don't because you know they see it as you know that's your story and you know but I was talking about that they don't write what's classically called a ketchup story a second a story that they neva tably have to credit they forget about it yeah and and and and and the reasoning is is that the sources are either partly or in large measure or completely anonymous and so the conceit is that we can't follow it up despite reputation in spite you know technically they they're right but they can also make phone calls too they're not completely ignorant probably on which waters you're fishing in you know it's complicated because you and I both know the as an editor you appropriately push me hard for sources or anybody you want people on the record well I mean we just can't have stories because there's always this sense and I'll tell you what's unfair about it it's sort of a bad bargain in this way we did a piece back in the Clinton years which they hate it just as much remember they every one about Barry McCaffrey we did a long long story about McAfee who really sort of an interesting very bright guy but his ambition was unbelievable and he did terrible things in the first Gulf War and we did this sort of amazingly long great story it was great I mean III once while I look at it I that story enabled me that I could do the kind of reporting I do now because McCaffrey's peers knew what he was about and he suffered so much that he's the NBC News special analyst on absolutely but his peers knew that and so with his peers I can call up anybody I mean some of the people who had biggest jobs in the war work worked in McAfee's 24th division then they were a brigade commander and so through that whole system everybody knows but your demand to me was we had a lot of generals talking about how bad McCaffrey was and David said go back to every one of them let's see if we can get something on the record and what happened was three sort of like nerve gas poisoning cumulative you got 20 generals who had said very terrible things all of them agreed to be quoted on the record saying much more tempered things but when you put them all together the picture was the same so we only had in twenty some odd thousand words we only had two unnamed sources about incidental things and you come out with this story everything's on the record the guys we had photographs of the prisoners he exited they were executed 400 people that disappeared one day we had people talking about it that did we get much plus from being on the record than anybody say this is pretty amazing in fact we got if you remember correctly we got what I call will we all call source remorse the piece came out and it made a tremendous splash and three of the generals suddenly decided oh I didn't speak to him at all it was like backsies they would they want it out and this is also a phenomenon of investigative reporting right at the highest level by the way on the question if I want it on the record that so I said that piece was 20,000 words Loney 4,000 nevertheless on on russia shana this year when so I was writing this Iran piece I got an email I think I've memorized it and it goes like this dear David happy new year semicolon I need more space which I found it very moving you said wish for the years that was very funny there was no semi cars and I need more space yes but you should have used the semicolon but I also see one of these guys talk to you you know no kidding around these sources when I finally got to know who they were and what they were about and looked into who they were they are astonishing and they're remarkable people and Patriots and either have been inside at that very highest level or still are why do they talk to you because this is an amazing country in which one you have a president like this who walks all over the system not look what's at risk here I've been talking to you through every president that you but now you really have what's happened now in the with with this president he's really demonstrated the fragility of democracy he really has he's he's he's muzzled us I mean you know I'm with all due respect to the New York Times and The Washington Post Jefferson would be turning over in his grave because they they didn't do it they didn't they didn't help us out in the in the Gulf War going to the war they didn't help us out and what's with the reality they weren't as good as they should have been which is probably be inevitable given but he muzzled the press he muzzled the Congress he muzzled the burocracy muzzled the military but but wait he muzzled them as an active verb meaning he literally in some sense censored them no that's that's a good catch what happened is he overwhelmed them there wasn't any direct it wasn't as if there was a Mathon the White House that we and by the way I'd include all of us we weren't good enough none of us were good enough in the beginning because how it this is a guy this is a true absolute the most revolutionary president we've ever had I mean he wouldn't understand the reference but he said he's a believer at like Trotsky in permanent revolution he is a true revolutionary this president he's gonna change the Middle East with democracy I think he still believes he can do it and he's uneducated say true revolutionary you cannot be educated does not learn from doesn't ought to be told I've had people that gone the guys they're guys in the senior intelligence service who go they they we did a huge project in Iran undercover guys sneaking in there all sorts of stuff guys on you know we can get in and out of Iran easily I mean we do we have the Israelis help they have a lot of what they as with through people from Curtis we're operating now the French alibis purposes yes they going they go and they drop money off they collect intelligence they and they David I can talk about it now because it's all passe we we can go into Tehran and sophistication inside you can go and we can make a street disturbance and why we're doing it you can change the street sign in front of a building we think there may be a nuclear activity going on and putting in another street sign they can sniff stuff we can go and theoretically not theoretically but you know Thea but we can go and get a brick and get a sample of a brick and then again going at night and take out a brick and put in another brick that can sniff we can we can we have ways we can find a building in the mountains in in the north of a very mountainous area in the north of of Iran where we we think there's a facility that's that has some dual used for nuclear purposes we can seed stones pebbles on the highway that could measure the way the trucks going in and trucks going out and we do all that there was a major operation not no evidence of the Woody Allen secret little project you know the secret parallel program what you have is what you would what they have is El Baradei will tell you that the Iranians have actually made a lot of progress they were actually doing very well but no but Halle Berry died is is a controversial figure let me let me just get on with this we can do all this and then you go and you brief you have this big exercise you go in your maybe your two-star general finita and you go and your brief Cheney and wah-wah-wah charts and this and that and you're all done and the effect is thank you he's very present thank you very much son that's wonderful I don't buy it and the discussion I don't buy it and so that's where you are and so that's what's scary mm-hmm because they have this into their own muses they're the Europeans I spend a lot of time as you know your money going around the world and I see I see I see I see a lot of foreign intelligence people really and and a lot of people Washington is a great place to be a reporter because the good embassy people usually get called back into their home country when I go to Europe I always see people that are that are there and they're much more open with me there than they would be if they were here anyway and everybody's worried about the Iranians because they're all saying as I wrote in this piece and asymmetrical warfare the Iranians are not sitting tight waiting for us and the other big question David this will interest you finish the point they're not sitting well though they're they're not necessarily going to hit Israel or hit us although I think everybody understands the extent to which the Iranians have a capability in this country there's a tremendous Iranian network here that doesn't mean they're all agents but there is a tremendous ability for the Iranians to work here I just saw somebody today before I came right and met somebody and we sat in a hotel nearby somebody from in that world and he was telling me that most of the money we spend we spent authorized seventy-five million dollars for groups to work against the government most of them I totally upended the money we gave groups to a totally penetrated by the government the Iranians have been weaving rugs for 2,000 years I mean they're way ahead of us on this kind of stuff so the idea that they haven't sat and thought long and hard about what to do if we bomb a-- but we do it out in public oh yeah well of course that's I mean let me have you I and we we have we do have it might be a debilitated journalism but we have a journalism as opposed to the Iranians and a lot of the discussion that takes place in the government and it's the intelligence world is published I mean you've published now how many pieces on potential contingency plans five or six yeah yeah I mean you know Iran has one thing that's a stick that's very interesting they might take from talking to Iranian side talking to people close to them talking to people in our government some of them are some I quote sometimes I'm in a situation quoting some people on and in the same article when I'm also saying something they can't say if they're advisors at some level they see what what interests the Iranians is this they think that we have something in common which is we both want we both want Iran to be ruled by the Shia since that's what we set up and that's what they like and they uh they would argue therefore democracy in Iran as long as the Shiites win you know which they would with royal and in Iraq rather so they see a commonality of purpose I'll tell you something else that I that I think that another issue that most people that I brood about a lot which is we all know about the refugee crisis from the forty a war with Israel the Palestinian refugee crisis these fet it's teeming horrific camps in in the summit Syria many more in Lebanon those there's three or four camps in Lebanon ROM we now have another wave we've got the Syrians tell me it's almost up to two million refugees they're of Iraqis don't forget Syria is run by an or minority Alawite sort of close to the share but not really that close eleven percent minority Alawite so most of the people there are Sunni these are all Sunnis coming and many I'm a Baptist I mean they're really and by now they're a little crazy because they're you know they're all in some paranoid fantasy about what's going on you know they're refugees they some of them have their their daughters out hustling prostitution to make money there's no money Syria's this population is 17 million his to me and outsiders that are potential fifth columnist who knows what's going on you got eight hundred thousand probably in Jordan all over the Middle East you've got this refugee group and nobody even talks about it I mean we've you know so the destabilization of the Middle East because of the war in Iraq what does that mean nobody talks it well it's not a George Packer published a you don't know about it listen I don't know George said no no of course no I'm talking about in the government it's not an issue my friends are ashamed that it's not on the table so it gets back to the question of whether Iran has a flourishing Democratic newspaper business or not is of some interest but the real issue there's every reason to think that the Iranians the Syrians the Jordanians want a stable Iraq and in the procedure talks with Crocker and you know where I got into this a little bit there's a record of some of these things and in the record Iran is never asked for the American troops out of Iraq in the in the talks of Crocker that we have monthly talks they there's only been three are we in Iraq for a long long time oh my god yes and you know and my for that no that's another issue doesn't matter what I think but we're in there at this point I look have you seen a Democrat make a reason a law argument about what to do I think the Democrats gonna lose the election if they don't wake up and I'll tell you why I knew what Petraeus was gonna say August 1st I knew what he was gonna say I may have told Amy about it I said here's what he's gonna do he's gonna come down there one gonna do this and this all worked out at the White House it's not purchases fault I mean that you know that of course that was scripted maybe he's technically right they didn't read what he said before he did but it was scripted in advance and of course they cooked the numbers I mean of course they have the army cooks the numbers of you know why shouldn't they cook the numbers they did in Vietnam that's a given the real issue is this and this is not a story to write because what I'm telling you is something that they haven't gone into the stages of working on they are gonna get down the the America the Democrats push is we've got to reduce by next year we want a numbers we'll start reducing Bush's option is next summer they come in with a real low number and what he's saying and the real number come with under a hundred thousand troops we can cut another fifty thousand because we're winning the war because it doesn't there's no connection between the surge worked because the surge in our province worked because there were a hundred maybe a hundred thousand maybe less but maybe even as many as 140,000 but there were tens of thousands of Shia that lived there that no longer lived there we have ethnic cleansing the surge works when you get rid of the opposition and so that's why this surge is working and the the logic of that just to give you watching 101 if the surge worked if the 30,000 troops are so successful why is the first thing everybody's talking about is taking them out as I read some papers some army stratas just made the argument this is equivalent to what you know if it works it's equivalent to landing a Normandy because there's two columns lately at Normandy and having taken the beaches and then saying we're gonna start rotating the people back home if it works why not do more of it but of course because of domestic politics so there's a sense of which politics is overall so what would a candidates to entice your but interest and support let me tell you what they're talking let me tell you what they're talking about on the inside and whether this this could be a story but it's not gonna be but because it's no no here's why you don't want to write about what they're going to you know with the bombing when they made when they make a move and they've changed the planning and they've done that that's all been done that's enough I know this this is concrete they've changed the policy they're briefing if they're our allies or trying to sell this it's a new package the stuff I'm telling you now is just stuff that they're talking about inside which is surprising the Democrats by coming with a big loan this is how they keep the Republicans of war we're gonna come in with a number maybe even seventy and eighty thousand we're winning the war next summer you can campaign on it and you can kill the Democrats on it because they're all up there in la-la land talking about getting some troops out this guy's got to comment slash the number of troops this is assuming that we can stand up enough Iraqi not so much police but military units and they think maybe they can you know they've been saying this for five years why should they think so but of course they think optimistically if they can stand up enough units concede the south you don't have to worry about it let that let the militias forget that worry about the central part and you know do what you to keep on doing the kind of ethnic cleansing that's going on stabilize it enough we can cut back the troops an awful lot and say we're winning why not so I I'm gonna ask you one or two last questions and then we're gonna raise the house lights a little bit and you're gonna ask questions so if those microphones could be placed in the in the aisles please and I'll just ask one or two more and then you all can ask I would also I beg of you that when you please ask a question don't don't give a speech however tempting if you don't mind so I I don't know how to put this you're not 35 you you know you you've been doing this a long time you could probably make speeches and get invited to this colloquium and be lionized and maybe write a memoir or something like that you work really hard you are I call you God knows what our and you God knows you call me at any hour did he complain he complain no sigh 4 a.m. it's 7 a.m. on the East Coast I'm just saying it was good to hear from you it's always good to you but you work not that you're alone in this among your colleagues at the New York or anywhere else but you work extraordinarily hard what's in you to do it like this where does this come from this urge in a funny way and I'm not I'm not I'm not your right hip being what I'm doing I'm a mouthpiece and you asked me about the people inside who have such why do they talk to me because you know everybody has a life and three kids and a dog and a mortgage and you know and everybody thinks that I can get through this and the next administration will be better I have to stay where I am I'm not going to quit there were a number of guys in the Joint Chiefs they work in the staff there were at least six if Bush hadn't taken a nuclear option out of the Iraqi plan the Oh in the Iranian war plan a year and a half ago I wrote about it they were gonna retire early they actually told the White House that they were gonna leave there's a lot of integrity there I mean most people as you all know want to do the job everybody wants to do their job the best they can and you know with the greatest sort of distinction and even and so there that does does exist in the system there are a lot of people who deal with me and really trust me and it involves I have to make sure in my own way to make sure that when I write stuff I don't write operational stuff often I I know a lot of operational stuff that I don't write about you know I mean technical it's not who cares anyway inside baseball so in a way these people deal with me every once in a while somebody will say something I'll say you know I'll tell say somebody well you know it'll be soon he said we're all waiting I hear that and I was just telling you before we came they're all waiting for the administration to end no they're waiting for the story because the story they these stories get you know the you know the stories we do you know that you I'm not exaggerating a tremendous circulation inside the government and the stories we do I mean automatically and I get I was just mentioning to you I got I had this time it isn't always but in this last story I had four people in in the Congress for the first time an unusual get that many who say I got to talk to you about something you know in in very high level in the subcommittee's on defense spending or an intelligence community the committees or a senior senator and stuff you know it's just privately let's we got to talk about stuff so you get that too so you get a sense that I'm a vehicle for a certain form of dissent so you know if and I also have a sense that I was a kid reporter and I did me lie and I'm back in the Pentagon I done meal I and one of the two or three stars i covered the Pentagon for The Associated Press one of the two or three stars stops me one day and he says what'd you do it for and I actually said I said you know with all due respect sir I don't care you know I know you have a lot of stars but I'm as much as good of American as you were mm-hmm so I also think that that were you know this is this is you know this is not just the scent this is what we do this is our job this is what you know this is what the First Amendment's all about so I really do believe in that so what am I gonna go you know as I said to somebody other they play professional golf I don't think so no I'm gonna stay here no I mean write a book now no this is not the time to do it the time is the state doing just what I'm doing and yes you we scream and David I my there will be times I said that's that I'm out of here I tell a great story about David I have about 800 time I resigned one night over at the editing and David called I didn't answer the phone I finally picked up the phone he said I swear to God he said you know sigh he said we've saved your emails that's so that ended that fight so you do it because the stories we do are understated you know that we work really hard at tone we work we write less than we know we understate it and you know that and people get a sense it doesn't mean you know I I'm the track records been very good and you were all worried about we all worry I worried to death I don't like people offering me things so I I think it's one thing that the readers should know that we're aware are that if you you you play at the edge of the line and in the best sense possible all the very very best investigative reporters absolutely that they are pushing it because if you don't push it then you have complacent seeing you don't know anything and you have what we've experienced in the last several years less six years but we do try to make sure everything is right before we publish it seems elementary but that's that's what fact checkers are there for god forbid that's what even editors are there for and above all that's what but what you're there for I want to talk about one one one last element of the game space and you began in Chicago and it's not always a joke between editors and reporters this business is space if Amy reminded me that there's a story that you had very early in your career having to do with a fire in Chicago and space and Anna family do you remember this Emily says and he says oh reporters have stories about their articles being cut I know that you have one about one of your very first stories about a fire in Chicago what happened there the story about them cutting a story about an entire family dying in a fire no no it's a race of an amazing story yeah you want to hear this horrible story sure I was a police reporter in Chicago and I grew up in Chicago I went to University of Chicago and I ended up I worked elsewhere but I I was a police reporter I was in the Army I came out of the army I was a police reporter and I my father ran a ghetto business I thought I understood racial relations you know the race dry cleaner and right right the typical first-generation Litvak Pollock what you want mongrel and which is why when people start talking about Haitians or immigration I go nuts because that's what makes this country so amazing that people want to come here and they risk so much to come anyway no well that's just that's just a reality and so I'm doing a story I'm covering the police beat in Chicago and it's the police reporters are it's amazing there's there's always the desk sergeant at some police station who takes the London Times a cross word and can do it as fast as you can talk forget the New York Times Sunday he's just doing and he's doing the cross you know there's always some guy like that it's always amazing cops same in the military you have this amazing sort of the guys I happen to talk to a cup of them IQs are way above off the board I'm just so so friggin brilliant and so smart and see so much and made it you know even though that sometimes being smart as a disadvantage in the Miller made it the four stars because you know they're that good and there is a system for that anyway the point of all this is some guy there's a fire and I go cover a fire and it's a terrible fire in the black ghetto and when I get to the house I haven't seen that many dead people and and there's five or six bodies and the the a guide gone nuts with his wife and killed her and then they've set fire to the house and so you had sort of like mama bear Papa Bear and a little bit there the fire department rolled up the bodies and in sheets by size and so I am I'm I call it in to the desk at City News and the guy named Mike Royko later became the environmental editor for Chicago Tribune all of us were young boys doing young men and women mostly men but V Mike Royko Oh Mike Royko was Mike Royko I said Mike Royko was I never thought of him as an environmentalist no no no I but wasn't Mike work oh it was but Mike Royko worked I worked with Mike Royko way back I mean he worked the city knows yeah I usually follow the Clint drink with Mike work because he could help rink anybody which of course was his entire Jewish man you cannot be out drunk by anybody what what what it's true so anyway so the point of the story is simply that I called it and all excited and we had an editor what it doesn't matter what his name is they had a phone system where he could on the phone and he's and I'm dictating this all this detail and he said aha his name is darn darn Phil Doheny said to me ah my I just been a new kid on the street only a couple of weeks as a police reporter after being a copy boy for months he said ah my good dear energetic mr. Hirsh I said yes sir mr. Dorn Phil do the alas poor unfortunate victims happen to be of the Negro persuasion I said yes sir cheap it out cheap it out that meant I filed this five people died in a fire on so-and-so Street in Chicago today all right end of it no story no nothing that's the way it works we did all right questions let's go step right up you

Channel: The New Yorker

Views: 19,367

Rating: 4.807229 out of 5

Keywords: festival 2007, Seymour M. Hersh, David Remnick, festival, nyer festival

Id: HknKXC4s7Ts

Length: 60min 51sec (3651 seconds)

Published: Tue Jul 22 2014