Seventh Day Adventism: at the Crossroads, Desmond Ford

tonight on the John Ankerberg show the topic is seventh-day Adventism at the crossroads many people know the Adventists as the people who go to church on Saturday others know them as the people who don't eat meat and they are perhaps best known for their outstanding hospitals and clinics but the seventh-day Adventist Church is in turmoil and stands at the most critical crossroads in its history which way will this great church go those invited to speak for it but declined the invitation were dr. Neil Wilson president General Conference of seventh-day adventists dr. Robert Olsen chairman the LNG White estate dr. Victor Cooper Associate Director General Conference of SDA mr. Warren John's associate editor ministry magazine and dr. William Johnson associate editor adventist review to help us uncover the answers John will interview two of the leading spokesman in the Adventist Church they'll discuss issues of Biblical Authority the writings of lng white and recent charges of the church's misuse of funds john's first guest is the widely respected adversus theologian author and pastor dr. Desmond Ford dr. Ford received his PhD from Manchester University England and has served as a theology professor at several Adventist seminaries and colleges he is the author of nine books and many articles published in Adventist journals and has sat on the highest doctrinal body of the church the biblical Research Institute Reverend Walter ray is John's second guest he is a scholar author and pastor Reverend ray is recognized as the leading authority on the writings of Ellen G white and has written more concerning her works than any other person now let's join John and his guests to examine seventh-day Adventism at the crossroads as of today as of the taping of this program this is now hitting the newsstands and here it says that of the 3.8 million member seventh-day Adventist Church a couple of bombshells have been dropped and one of those bombshells is a theological bombshell that dr. Ford in part you are responsible for or have at least brought up in quoting time it says this that Alan G White's sanctuary explanation of 1844 in your opinion is no longer able to stand up to the light of the Bible and let's start with that for all of us that are not seventh-day Adventists would you please explain a little bit about what the sanctuary explanation of 1844 what it is for those of us that are not part of seventh-day Adventism gladly John if I might just give a moment of background you said you were not a seventh-day Adventist Church but I want to see it come in full harmony with Scripture Adventists have long claimed to be the heirs of the Reformation and the Reformation was based on the primacy and the adequacy and the sufficiency of Holy Writ it was based on the priesthood of all believers and was based on justification by faith and I want to see my church to come into full harmony in these areas I believe the church had made a great contribution and Christendom it stress on the Blessed hope and an age of hopelessness it's stress on the law and an age of lawlessness but the sanctuary is usually presented by seventh-day Adventists seems too many to be a threat the Reformation doctrine of salvation by grace alone okay what is it the Adventists sanctuary doctrine affirms that in 1844 our Lord Jesus Christ entered the second apartment of the heavenly sanctuary or as some would say entered upon a second phase of his ministry this being a work of investigative judgment the work that has now been in procedure for over 140 years which is to determine who shall be saved and who shall be lost a review of the same the why it is often presented has taken assurance from the vast membership of the church for those who are not seventh-day Adventists let's pause here to clarify what dr. Ford just said seventh-day Adventists believe Daniel 8:14 supports their view that Jesus moved from one compartment of the heavenly sanctuary to another in 1844 at that point Jesus began an investigative judgment of all Christians Ellen White wrote quote attended by heavenly angels our great high priest enters the Holy of Holies and there appears in the presence of God to perform the work of investigative judgment and to make atonement for all who are shown to be entitled to its benefits but a number of seventh-day Adventists like dr. Ford are questioning this they believe the Bible teaches that atonement was completed at the cross through the shed blood of Christ and that believers sins are forgiven once for all at the moment of salvation however Ellen White has written quote the blood of Christ while it was to release the repentant sinner from the condemnation of the law was not to cancel the sin it would stand on record in the sanctuary until the final atonement she also wrote again quoting in the new covenant the sins of the repentant are by faith placed upon Christ and transferred in fact to the heavenly sanctuary the actual cleansing of the heavenly is to be accomplished by the removal of sins which are their recorded but before this can be accomplished there must be an examination of the books of record to determine who through repentance and faith in Christ are entitled to the benefits of his atonement but some seventh-day Adventists like dr. Ford point out that God has removed forgiven sin as far as the East is from the West why then they ask must there be in any further investigative judgment by Christ based on past sins to determine a believers salvation the key question that emerges is this is salvation by faith alone that is faith in Christ whose life and death satisfies God's demands or is it by a mixture of faith plus works that is faith in Christ who only gives me strength for me to go out and live perfect so he can later finally approve me the riot is often presented has taken assurance from the vast membership of the church very few Adventists comparatively rejoice in the known possession of eternal life now in harmony with John 5:24 that he who believes has eternal life you usually Adventists think that if they can get through that tremendous hurdle of their name passing through the investigative judgment but if their characters are found in harmony with the law of God they can make it if a guy can read three lines from a president of the General Conference on the point this is what he wrote and drama of the ages this was Branson elder Branson a Christian who through faith in Jesus Christ has faithfully kept the laws requirements will be acquitted there is no condemnation for the law finds no fault in him if that's true we're all done for okay let's let's go back I think he lost a few of us here the first one first thing I was thinking about is why do we even need a sanctuary doctrine the seventh-day adventists the sanctuary doctrine grew out of the Miller revival the Advent revival 1844 a Baptist pastor who was responsible for the resurgence of premillennialism the doctrine that Jesus Christ would come before the Millenium which was quite contrary to the postmillennialism of the day in an age of progress it was taken for granted the world will get better and better 4000 years then Jesus would come military so it was a skeptic that's right then found the Lord that's what his own study he came up with the idea that the Lord was coming back for an honest Christian who preached Christ who preached the gospel but sadly ultimately not the years ultimately settled on a date of October 20 to 1844 for Christ's to come most people in the movie were opposed today today what verse did he get that from from he felt it was found in Daniel 8:14 when linked with Daniel 9:24 okay read it for us you've got there Daniel 8:14 in the KJV says under 2300 days then shall the sanctuary be cleansed and Daniel 9:24 speaks about seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and Adventist have said the word determine means cut off from so 490 years would be cut off from 2300 and both should begin with the date of Daniel 9:25 a decree to restore Jerusalem in 457 BC how did William Miller pick the date of 1844 ad as the time Jesus would return to Earth he made at least five wrong assumptions to do so first he assumed two unrelated passages of Scripture Daniel 8:14 and Daniel 9:24 were actually related second in Daniel 8:14 he assumed that the 2300 days mentioned could mean 2300 years he was wrong the Hebrew literally reads 2300 evenings and morning's which total 1150 whole days third he further assumed from Daniel 8:14 that in the words then shall the sanctuary be cleansed that the sanctuary stood for the whole earth and cleansed stood for Jesus leaving heaven and coming to earth again he was wrong the Hebrew word for cleansed literally means vindicated forth in the other verse Daniel 9:24 he assumed that when the seventy sevens or 490 years were decreed the word decreed could be translated cut off from he was wrong the Hebrew literally means decreed or determined he further postulated the 490 years mentioned here were cut off from the 2300 years postulated in the other passage of Daniel 8:14 v from these two non related texts he joined his wrongly translated words in those texts to assume he knew when the 2300 years began and when they would end this postulated date mixed with his assumptions that the cleansing of the sanctuary stood for Jesus coming to earth led Miller to wrongly conclude that Jesus would come back to the earth on October 22nd 1844 ad later in a vision Ellen G white claimed it was revealed to her that Jesus did not come to earth for the earthly sanctuary as she called it rather on October 22nd 1844 Jesus changed his location in heaven and entered the heavenly sanctuary or the Holy of Holies the event did not pay place of course Ray's dissolution right disillusionment not not the extreme going up on hilltops and ascension robes all that has been debunked long ago by historians but nevertheless tremendous disillusionment and Adventists who felt the Lord had led them sought for an explanation those that became seventh-day Adventists came up with the explanation after 13 years after 13 years in 1857 came up with the explanation investigative judgment that at that time Christ had come not to us but to the most holy place of heaven to do an anti typical work of judgment as prefigured by the day of atonement in other words that would you say there was a face-saving device most theologians from outside looking at it have drawn that conclusion the tickly and as much as Adventists had several other explanations shut door going into the marriage receiving the kingdom there are a number of other theological devices that were tried for a while found wanting and given away before this one was adopted James White husband of Ellen White opposed this one in print in the church paper when it originally came out but in 1857 it took control okay and so Jesus was supposed to come back to the earthly sanctuary or the earth he didn't come and so was it LG white that said no Ellen White did not devise a single doctrine of the Adventist Church but she did write on it after it had been accepted by okay but she accepted in what would you say komal guided all right yes endorsed it is that Jesus had not come to this sanctuary but it just switched compartments in the heavenly to begin a work of investigative judgment to see who would be saved when Jesus came and this to most of the scholars of the church flies in the face of the everlasting gospel which says that we can have assurance of eternal life now that we have the verdict of the Last Judgment the moment we believe cause Christ's merits and Christ's merits alone are the only issue in the judgment have we laid hold of them by faith all right what what in brief are the reasons that you have found does not support that original interpretation John I am NOT an original thinker in this area the things I am saying have been said by various men in the church for for nearly a century okay give us some of the things that they've been saying that would be solid evidence right the major thing is this there's only one place New Testament that speaks of the meaning of the two apartments of the Jewish sanctuary that's Hebrews nine there's only one place in the New Testament that discusses the cleansing the heavenly sanctuary that Hebrews nine there's only one part of the New Testament that explains in detail the meaning of the anti-typical day of atonement when the high priest wind of the most holy place that's Hebrews nine this chapter embarrasses seventh-day adventists no end because I'm generalizing the scholars have known what I said for decades this doctrine has not been taught at our university for decades what have the scholars known all of these years concerning Hebrews nine that seems to straighten us out in terms of what Scripture is saying about the two sanctuaries and the investigative judgment John to take the cross from the Christian is like blotting the Sun out of the sky and when the writer of Hebrews talks about the ancient sanctuary he makes it all point to the cross of Christ and when we come to Hebrews chapter 9 he opens the chapter by discussing the two apartments of the sanctuary and if we look at verse six he says that when everything had been arranged like this the priests entered reg Lee into the outer room there's the first apartment to carry on the ministry but he's going to talk about the second apartment all the way through so now he has about but only the high priest entered the inner room and that only once a year and never without blood and then verse 8 says the Holy Spirit was showing by this is the way into the most holy place that's the equivalent of the word in a room or second mentioned at verse 7 now it's called the most holy place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first room was still standing this is an illustration for the present time in other words Hebrews are saying the first apartment represented the Jewish age verse 9 and 10 goes on to talk about the age of food and drink offerings various carnal regulations that couldn't clear the conscience and the writer of Hebrews says the first apartment represented the first era the Jewish era when those continued administration that didn't achieve anything because the cross hadn't come but the second apartment when the high priests went through the vial into the presence of God where the Shekinah cot was where the Ark was and the mercy seat where the blood was sprinkled that represent our Lord Jesus Christ in the cross resurrection ascension event so there's the first answer the two apartments according to New Testament the only place it discusses them I said to prefigure the two eras one the Jewish not the Year 1844 as Adventists have said but the Jewish era and the second apartment not the era from 1844 but the whole Christian age now the second point the the meaning of the cleansing the sanctuary verse 23 it was necessary then for the copies of the heavenly things to be cleansed with these sacrifices but the heavenly things themselves cleanse and parenthesis with better sacrifices in these for Christ and enter a man-made century there was only a copy of the true one he entered heaven itself and then verse 25 nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again the way the high priest enters the most holy place every year with blood that's not his own so here the writer says the cleansing the earthly sanctuary on the day of atonement pointed forward the time when Christ would cleanse the record the shadow of sin which been cast into heaven through the ages of transgression of God's holy law the Christ would cleanse away that blot by shedding his own blood the better sacrifice he entered heaven itself with blood you see and then it speaks about the sacrifice of himself in verse 26 so there's a second the cleansing the sanctuary is said to be fulfilled in the cross of Christ and Christ ascending into the most holy place now the third one the meaning of the Day of Atonement we go to verse 12 of chapter 10 of chapter 9 again Jeff Gurner all three in Chapter 9 he did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves these are what we used on the day of atonement but he entered the most holy place once for all by his own blood having obtained eternal Redemption so that is the parallel to verse 8 only the high priest entered the inner room only one seer never without blood verse 12 he entered with blood but not goats and cars the most holy place once ruled having obtained eternal Redemption so the high priests entrance on the day of atonement in the second apartment is here said to be fulfilled when our Lord died on the cross and by virtue of his own blood entered into the presence of God on our behalf take him with with him legally the whole human race so the moment I affirm by faith that he represented me he substituted for me that moment I am as close to God as he is and the law can no more condemn me to the condemned him because the great atonement has been offered the atonement is complete salvation is procured sin has been blotted out I have eternal life so long as I trust in the merits of Jesus I cannot be lost that's the gospel so there are the three points see.well that John is a very important point it's not just theological that Ford caused a dilemma in the Adventists does not believe nor does not teach nor has not taught that the atonement was completed the cross that that experience comes at conversion with Christ at the cross you see they separated it and to an Adventist technically philosophically I think his atonement is never completed till after his judgment and the coming of Christ the Adventist is tempted to hold his breath until he's gotten through the investigative judgment this is not true of everyone because there are many people he had ventures that do know the gospel only know the traditional teaching can i summarize Ephraim and see if I'm right or wrong you're okay when a person is converted under the teachings that you have been saying have not been correct when they were converted in one sense they still weren't sure of heaven they weren't sure they were going to make it because of this doctrine correct right which simply says that in 1844 Jesus started investigating people started going back on the records and as he looked at those records somewhere along the line he was going to come up to you and the press odd like coming to judgment at any time okay did come to you in the present what did he do he would write my life in the balances of the sanctuary now according to because all you ever converted already yes according to the General Conference Pastor Branson unless my life is found in harmony with the law of God I'm a goner and he says one other place for Mike rhodium again if it is found that one has broken even a single precept and this transgression is under Fergus unconfessed he'll be dealt with just as if he'd broken all ten so here salvation even depends on a good memory and the end the the interesting thing is that it came to mean not only the ten commandments but all of the ideas and concepts of L and G white which ties the the problem okay so a person that was converted he was still looking toward this investigative judgment would he ever know while he's living usually Adventists have said this would happen towards the end of time but never less popular in homiletic presentations it has often been said your name may come up at any time and instead of the glad joyous note that should characterize every Christian that knows the good news so many earnest Adventists have been bowed down with guilt wondering where they're going to make it and John we have even said an argued theological you can remember that well maybe some of your probations have closed and you don't know what I want a thought you know yeah yeah in other words and again at that point if you're to be the progenitors the the ones that advance the Reformation it seems to me that you've picked up the very theology the Reformation was working against John it's that's correct it can be said this way that the Council of Trent opposed the Reformation and began to talk about an infused righteousness the God medicinally infused righteousness so man could be blessed and justified in other words Christ when a conversion came into your life and games are you got to work it out after that that's right and tragically that is the in the theological belief of many Adventists they think their sins were forgiven when they came in but then they roll up their sleeves they cooperate with God and get such a sanctification that that sanctification can meet the gaze of the lawgiver so it's ignore some people say you know but that that sounds just like the gospel I believe why are you saying that's not the gospel because the infinite law of God takes account of our motives you know it looks at every drive even to desire sinners sin it looks at our mixed motives and you see that the teaching of the Bible on depravity says that it's not enough even if we keep the law from now on one slip will fix us one slip will ruin us the law demands perfect thoughts perfect desires perfect motives from the beginning of your experience none of us will ever have this to offer unless we're saved by grace alone will not be saved but you see the interesting thing too was that it emphasizes that sin was an act not an attitude draw an Old Testament concept rather than testing so that many Adventists faithful Adventists good Adventists are really Old Testament believers not New Testament Christians because they believe that sin is an act not our attitude let me see if we can get this into some other terms for people let's take the terms of you know these big hairy theological words like justification and sanctification okay what I hear you're saying is the seventh-day evidence got those words confused and turned them around and let's put this in language for the label what is justification what is sanctification let's come up with an illustration here let me say something first John it's very difficult with all Adventists in one bag because that would not be correct there's a wide spectrum of Adventists I'll hardly say anything tonight that a large number of our scholars would not say Amen to in their hearts at least see so and we're going to bring this up to you need to eat know an Adventist and how many of them are scholars well an influential very tiny minority but influential okay all right let's go back that right the term justification it's the same word in the Greek as righteousness and what it means is the verdict of acquittal the verdict of forgiveness but more than forgiveness the imputation directing to us of the merits of Christ so we stand without guilt spotless before God as spotless as his own son for as long as we believe in his son you can never be lost while trusting the merits of Jesus you are that justification is continual it's over you like the like the cloud that protected Israel from the Sun all your days and the representative nation made the point for illustration that it didn't take place in science it took place outside of you reckon it is external my righteousness is in heaven that's why I can't lose it so long as I'm trusting him if the excitation quickly sanctification sanctification is the fruit of it whereby the Holy Spirit comes in and begins that lifetime process of changing my life because God does not justify any he does not sanctify he gives his gifts with both ends we're not talking about cheap grace obedience the law of God is the fruit of salvation but it's never the root now with many Adventists they've sadly taken hold of pagan philosophy if I'm good God will love me the gospel is the opposite God loves you though you're not good and if you believe it you'll become good and also this whole idea that I can be perfect once I'm converted the New Testament knows nothing of sinless perfection as the Bible says and many things we all offend the Lord's Prayer forgive us our trespasses you know where none of us will ever outgrow it but I'm not willful sin the Christian does not willfully cherish known sin he hates his sins but no he's accepted he's mainly there to overcoming it tonight on the John Ankerberg show the topic is seventh-day Adventism at the crossroads many people know the Adventists as the people who go to church on Saturday others know them as the people who don't eat meat and they are perhaps best known for their outstanding hospitals and clinics but the seventh-day Adventist Church is in turmoil and stands at the most critical crossroads in its history which way will this great church go those invited to speak for it but declined the invitation were dr. Neil Wilson president General Conference of seventh-day adventists dr. Robert Olson chairman the ln g white estate dr. victor cooper Associate Director General Conference of SDA mr. Warren John's associate editor ministry magazine and dr. William Johnson associate editor adventist review to help us uncover the answers John will interview two of the leading spokesman in the Adventist Church they'll discuss issues of Biblical Authority the writings of lng white and recent charges of the church's misuse of funds john's first guest is the widely respected adversus theologian author and pastor dr. Desmond Ford dr. Ford received his PhD from Manchester University England and has served as a theology professor at several Adventist seminaries and colleges he is the author of nine books and many articles published in Adventist journals and has sat on the highest doctrinal body of the church the biblical Research Institute Reverend Walter ray is John's second guest he is a scholar author and pastor Reverend ray is recognized as the leading authority on the writings of Ellen G white and has written more concerning her works than any other person now let's join John and his guests to examine seventh-day Adventism at the crossroads we're glad that you're here and gentlemen on the platform tonight you are written up in Time magazine as we do this show and Walter ray they say about you in Time magazine Ford's challenge was mild compared with a bombshell dropped by Walter T ray of Patterson California a veteran pastor ray in the course of PhD research stumbled across some long buried writings by forgotten Divine's that matched huge swatches of prophet White's books and it goes on to say Ray was the first to document the vast scale of borrowing from 75 assorted books on history doctrine and the Bible and last April ray issued his full findings in a book titled the white lie you're holding the white lie in your hand for people that don't know who L&G white is tell us who was L&G white of course I had no Adventist background John I was I came into the church I was a Christian before I was a Adventist but I was not denominationally oriented so when I became an Adventist I became acquainted with mrs. white which is the seventh-day adventists prophet and I was always a devotee of mrs. white began to read she fascinated me she covered all the doctrines from Genesis to Revelation and our Christology and eschatology mainly our main points of doctrine and I had spent probably 25 years of my lifetime devoted to her study I had written three books Bible biographies old and new Testament in which I had accumulated all of the published and unpublished works of mr. white and sent it out to the Bible houses of the Adventists they were used in all of our schools universities also the Book of Daniel revelation Oliver's statements I could find out and sent it out but not commented on them merely because I felt that they were something special that had been given by divine revelation some critics have said I believed in verbal inspiration I really that's correct I did believe they had Authority and much more authority than anyone else that had written des would it be fair to say that the man sitting next to you has published more on LNG white than anybody else Waldo Raya has done more research on the origin of the LNG white writings than any person that's ever lived so we're taking not only contemporary Adventists but the Adventists over a century that is certain and you loved her believed in our newer writings publish them I think anyone who does that John is known in Adventism as a conservative that is they really are a true believer and I think I it's fair to say I was a true believer okay and as you had these large pastor it's in different places people gave you books what would happen the first book came to my attention while I was in Florida from one of our eminent doctors dr. kress and gave me the book sketches from the life of Paul was written by Cooney Baron Haussmann and I naively started to read it in one of the members who was an older member knowledgeable said well that's the book but the Adventists would rather forget because mrs. White's life of polar sketches from the life of Paul was largely taken from that material so I did a study and found that it the criticism was correct that there were similarities what did you think when you saw that I was shocked because we had been taught you have to understand what you're taught in Adventism at least in our general what were you taught we were taught that mrs. white was not influenced by outside sources and while I never thought that through at the time thought illogical so that was one thing that bothered me what did you think that she got this well she got it directly from God by our inspiration without outside influence the second is in most of mrs. White's counsels she counseled against all of menace to all of our ministers using outside sources so as a theologian I found it very difficult to get my degrees without reading all of this you know quote so far so called trash and outside world and we weren't supposed to to use this and so it was shocking to find from the stand for wait a minute she was using what she condemned and said we should use so your curiosity was is awakened then was a me stood waken and I began to correspond with the fight estate which is the official Organization for handling the doctrines of LNG white and I expressed some of my concern and they said well these are not new concerns and they pointed out that some had found us before then what then I moved to California and someone else gave me another book on inner shame his old a New Testament mm-hmm I found it he also he was a converted Jew he'd written on the life of Christ hello and behold I found that some of the format for patriarchs and prophets written biology white had the same titles I put them in the book and also that some of the statements were taken directly from an attack this was devastated fact I used to say facetiously at that time the guilt was overwhelming and I used to do the study under the bed with the lights out you know he nervous and I notified the white estate and they wrote back and encouraged me on the study and I kept the letters just saying you know keep us informed although this is not new we're interested in some of these angles well I went to a public meeting and there some member of the white estate denied that there was any borrowing in the book desire of Ages by that time I had found a book by Hannah was an English writer on the life of Christ mm-hmm and this was the most shocking of all right well it was shocking because chapter after chapter she was plagiarizing or taking whole sections of that book em and paraphrasing it so when a person says you can't find three or four sentences that she copied this is deceitful it wasn't the sentences that she wanted to copy so the white estate was saying that there was no borrowing and here you had all the books showing that it was sisters what would you do well then I asked for a meeting we asked for a meeting with the scholars of the church and in January of 80 with picking and choosing we were allowed to sit before 18 scholars and after 2 days those 18 scholars voted 6 motions one was that the borrowing was more extensive than they had believed that it was really shocking second is that it should be brought to the attention of the church immediately and seminars and study groups third I should be given scholarly help to work it out into a printed form they had discouraged me from publishing anything and that's important because when I went before the committee I didn't have anything published they said you should have this published mm-hmm and I said well you've forbade it and don't think that you'll be the only ones that will read it if I get it go to the trouble of publishing so I hadn't published so they said well we'll help you get it in this form and then they give me a load of things well we were elated because we felt that this was a problem that had long been overdue had been discussed in scholarly circles I will grant that scholars do have some benefits but nonetheless the churches all had not known this and it is erroneous to say that the church has always known this if they have always known it why was I fired and why did they meet with me and why was the committee upset and why did they vote so they didn't well within about 60 days the president's Advisory Committee of the General Conference wrote a letter which I put a copy I think in a book and said forget it we take it from here and we'll notify the people what we think they should know and then you go back to your work as a pastor and then what you do well I wrote them a letter and said well it evidently the church has decided that I should not be the one they felt that I was too harsh in my judgments and perhaps too negative in my approach or conclusion so I said the church is spoken I had a decision whether I wanted to stay with the system or get out and I wanted to stay with the system and work within it my purpose was to lower the voice in the church and the administration on LNG white and to put Jesus Christ back in the center of the church where I felt it really was wrong and I felt that mrs. white from my study and research had been a deterrent she was the one that endorsed the 2300 days the DES talks about she was the one that endorsed all the documents we held officially and therefore no one was allowed to go beyond the thinking and the the endorsement of L&G white and plough new gown so I merely wanted to Lord and my premise was the five books that Edmund is count on the conflict series from Genesis to Revelation we're thus came by human means rather than divine revelation this they didn't want except altar you have touched on the writings of L and G white you have published more than anybody else you've done more research in this area than anybody else in terms of do you use the word plagiarism I do they don't define it for us what is plagiarism the first time I was acquainted with the word was when John Dart from the Los Angeles Times wrote his article in November and said ask me the question did I believe that mrs. white was a plagiarist and I asked him his definition he said I take an amoral view that is I'm not impugning any good or bad while these do it I'm really saying that this is a person who uses others material and and use it as their own I said in that case I accept the word plagiarism I still do I think that word has been bantered around and get in the case of mrs. white for a hundred years Alan G white is the lady that is been known as the prophet with inside of seventh-day adventists and it was her interpretation of Daniel chapter 8 on the sanctuary and the investigative judgment that when William Miller said Jesus was going to come in 1844 when Jesus did not come L&G white came on the scene and gave this interpretation and said Jesus actually wasn't talking about coming to this earth he was talking about coming to the heavenly sanctuary just switching compartments and at that point seventh-day Adventism was off and running and she was its leader she was the one that spurred it on now as time went along how many books did she actually write they cleaned something like 70 books that includes compilations always many with a repetitive yeah okay and these writings have been a source of authority supposedly not as authoritative as Scripture but in actual practice held up to be the thing that gives you guidance in terms of what the scriptures are actually saying is that your statement gets fair what Ford is trying to approach in that we reclaim and rightfully so look now I've proven that and this is what I couldn't understand if you claim as Ed Minister we did not get any of our doctrines when mrs. white why do you get upset when I prove that you're absolutely right she got it from others that's what I couldn't understand and so she became an endorser of other ideas the problem was we accepted the endorsement rather than the theory you wrote a book called the white lie okay would you hold it up for us there inside of this book you have how many pages of just column after column where you put L&G White's writing on one side and then you put the author that she copied it from on the other just going right straight down 50 pages 150 pages for anybody that wants to see it where can they get that book Walter it's published by a man our publications in Turlock California great where how can they get it it's just box 205 600 but we'll put that up at the end of the program does you've also got a book this is the manuscript I write for the church only a thousand pages on which my trial took place a glaze of you and this book is also available from Desmond for publications blood drive that's BU double l-ard New Castle California nine five six five eight you may be putting it on it up with that unser as well and you got to say though that is basically your doctoral dissertation that you do with ffs Bruce at Manchester no it does include some insights on it but this is the doctrine this is not gonna write for the church for testing against the traditional V that's the cutoff version right over thousand ages this is the whole thing okay yeah and that's written specifically on what this is covering most the doctrinal problems of seventh-day Adventism which Caesar agreeing around the misuse of Ellen White and the investigative judgment okay which you concluded she was wrong in her view that's wrong and you brought the denomination back to Scripture I did not regard Ellen White as a doctrinal authority she didn't regard herself as dr. authority timing against it only the Bible for your sake is he collars have always known that none at the deck I was the reason they fired him was not because he had a different nuance in his idea they could have accepted that had not mrs. white endorsed and he was really challenging the endorsement of LNG why yes Illinois was threatened by the press okay and so we come back how much was actually taken from other writers how much have you found well I think it's fair to say that in the latest ministry magazine of the denomination which the Time magazine talks about they have for the first time in Adventism to my knowledge admitted that there was a vast amount of material copied and they have said in their publication that they have found no book she wrote that does not show copy work they have found her Diaries also had copy word they have found her visions also had copy work and that they figured it would take a decade to survey the at least 1200 books they have at the present time to find out the extent of the copy work but it was vastly more than what they'd seen the problem begin was if they had confessed that or admitted it they don't like the word confession before the book the white lie have been put out perhaps there would have been no need for the white line but they didn't do it you actually approached the Ong white estate as well as the denominational leaders with the fact this is the way it is it's not it was devastating to yourself personally you were shocked when you found this out because you would always believed in her yourself but then when you actually saw it you said okay this is the way it is and you didn't think it would be a disrupting of seventh-day Adventism to say okay this is the way it was she had some good points she had some bad points she wasn't inspired inerrant she was an adviser concerning Scripture and we should hold her that way and keep on rolling right actually I they felt that it would be more disruptive if I printed the book than if they did I consented to that I said I'm willing for you to bring this material if you'll do it but within three months the pricks that letter said no we will not do it what is the crux an letter while the prick said letter was the political arm of the church which overrode the committee that sat with me and lowers the proxy I mean for people who don't know the president's Advisory Committee that's what the main short that affects that okay Matmos breaks it and in the essence the letter says we'll go back to harvesting gathering money or whatever pastors doing and we take it from here and so the church was not to know that was unacceptable to me I do feel that people would have been less threatened and it could have been accomplished on a favorite more favorable plane if the church had revealed by some method that which I had to leave evangelicals watching would say hey if you got Jesus why is it so important that you have to have Ellen's you want in my view which differs from four we do not have Jesus because of why we have made Ellen White they had been a savior and I think that if we could lower the voice and get rid of the all-or-none concept of Ellen White then we could put Christ in the center of the church you say it's right to us she only needs a bit of opposition so can I come on certainly go to Spurgeon once said he that doesn't read will never be read he that doesn't quote al-libi crouded he who doesn't use other people's brain shows he has no brains of his own we early pages of his book on commentaries and commenting warns people not to read books from people that haven't read widely I've written a dozen books at least nine and ten of which have been published and I read hundreds of books in connection with every book I ever write but I have to be more careful the 19th century I can go into the stacks as a Library of Congress and in every area history religion health medicine I find people using ad nauseam stuff without credit it still happens today here for example is a Protestant writer very well-known jeaious wale Christian doctrine using word for word another one that I've quoted in this page Bruner word two is eight without any quote marks whatever that's Protestant roses today here's a Catholic whose Fulton sheen using word-for-word from Testim again without quote mark that still happens but there is a difference the twentieth century we are more careful now it's quite clear that Ellen White recommended certain of the key book to most use yet recommended them the church papers so I don't really think she was trying to hide too much furthermore there are many many quotes where she speaks about the duty of gathering scattered gems of truth from erroneous settings and putting them in right settings she said that even Jesus did that and today in scholarship we know there's not a phrase and the Lord's that's original Jesus did gather out of a lot of rubbish and sawdust the gyms and put them together and Ellen White felt she was doing that I do not believe Ellen right whether deceptive or a cheat a bleach is an honest Christian woman but we have had a superstitious view about as Adventists and Wilders right we have engaged in a type of idolatry which has been dealer Terriers to Adventist Christian experience the thing on my phone with Aragon is that she for example it's alright for someone to copy the problem was not coughing would be mrs. white came to be inspired she claimed to be a prophet and she also really denied her borrowing now there let me read the ministry magazine saying that did mrs. white make any attempt to conceal from Adventists the answer is no she even heard some as Dez said to read I'd like to let you see what kind of books here than to see it wasn't the total when she copied from but notice what they say on the next page on the other hand she did not generally draw a particular attention to her use of other authors I wish you had I wish the church could produce one definitive statement ever in the life of Ellen C wider James where she admitted openly that she was using someone else for that particular statement if she just said now enter shine says or nikki says or Ferrara says but you see she never did that so I think this is the problem didn't i hilton lied you agree yes but now we didn't space between the health journal we're saying well it's possible but in her health journals now because some of the statements were ridiculous she wasn't speaking as a prophet she was speaking as a an editor and martha white is now saying this revolution the idea dezz asante and bob wilson is saying well perhaps we're going to have to distinguish between when she was speaking as a prophet and when she was speaking as a compiler or nothing amen let's keep going yeah we're shifting from the superstitious you i do not think we should put Adventists in a little box by themselves i find in fundamentalist america very superstitious views about the bible trying to prove the bible by science this sort of approach is making science greater than the Bible the Bible is self-authenticating and so I don't think you should put Adventist and separate chem the fact is most of American Protestantism has a superstitious view about how the Bible was written okay I think I said the thing it puzzled me there is that we claim and he's read it from questions on doctrine we do not make mrs. white canonical but in every case we go back to the Bible to prove mrs. white I thought it was the other way around we were to prove mrs. white for the Bible instead if mr. white says and we say well the Bible did that too you see what would you say is the majority view of people concerning the Bible and mrs. white the majority view as a pastor of this church is unequivocally that mrs. white is the authority and if there is a question on biblical interpretation in our church it is settled by the statements of L&G white not by the interpretation of the Bible that's no cleric right not you that's why it is is out not never by about and you would want to see it change ends on the country where you are it must change if you're going to get praise but you would want to see a change oh yes oh nothing in Germany they don't even teach the investigative judgment I spoke to one of our key scholars from Germany I said you teach Invesco judgment we baptize people sit on no you know he went on to say something like this 1844 sort of an American innovation okay we'll come back to this in just a minute let's take a break right here a few days ago a friend wrote to request cassette tapes of this series in his letter he said I want to share the tapes with some friends who are struggling with this very problem I especially appreciate that you present the evidence so clearly and that it points to the truth of God's Word and that's the purpose of the John Ankerberg show to take a difficult issue and examine it in the light of God's Word if you'd like to share the programs in this series with a friend or use it for your own personal study audio cassettes are available upon request for a contribution of $15 the address is the John Ankerberg show box 89 77 Chattanooga Tennessee 374 1 1 now if you'd like to have the series in written form printed transcripts are also available for a contribution of $5 and when you write please be sure to give the name of the series so we know what to send you the address again the John Ankerberg show box 89 77 Chattanooga Tennessee 374 1 1 about this thing - that the group is the exclusive group the exclusive community and Christendom the witness to Christ the remnant this is based on very poor exegesis revelation 12:17 is speaking about a remnant yet to be developed questions on doctrine said that all faithful Christians are potential members of that remnant but most small religious groups have a tendency to an inferiority complex which is compensated for by some extravagant claims Adventists have been guilty in that area but the things that Walter has just said do fit many parts of North America but it shouldn't be thought that this necessarily fix the whole world field I know hundreds of us I've trained hundreds of Ministers in part and they do know the gospel and they do speak of Jesus what Walter says is true and many is not necessarily true of all of Adventism the problem that I have noticed in preparing for this program before you men arrived was to meet with men in this area and I'm not going to name names because they felt they could lose their job they know the gospel yes they're afraid to say it thousands of advence ministers know the gospel and many of the Lyautey know the gospel in Australia you talk most of the guys that are in the clergy there in Australia yeah okay taking all of this what hope do you see for the future if the church will be honest to God get down the biblical evidence there's not a good no basis for 1844 is a biblical datum the scholars know it the church needs to admit it if the church will be honest to God God will bless the church it has much to offer the Christian world if the denomination takes the next step and hardens up the line and makes LNG white an extra scriptural source of authority which is a possibility denies justification by grace alone in the sense that the investigative judgment stays in there we become a cult if we take those two steps which deny the gospel I just need to make a few comments about seventh-day Adventism at the crossroads in 1957 evangelical leaders such as Walter Martin and Harold Lynn Zell approach those in the leadership of the seventh-day adventists they wanted to know what Adventists really believed in order to determine if they should be classified as truly Christian in doctrine or whether the seventh-day adventist church was merely a cult now the evangelical leaders asked two key questions first do seventh-day Adventists hold lng white to be equal in authority with the bible and second do they really believe in justification by faith the adventist reply came back in the book entitled questions on doctrine in it they said the bible was their final authority in matters of belief and that a person was justified by faith in christ now based on this response many evangelicals accepted the Adventists as Christian brethren but immediately inside the seventh-day Adventist denomination questions on doctrine was challenged in 1980 the denomination appears to have elevated LNG White's interpretation of Scripture to a position equal in authority with Scripture itself now it seems she is the only authoritative interpreter of scripture for Adventists now this crucial decision by the leadership of Adventism has forced evangelical leaders to re-evaluate its the consensus of those with whom I've talked that if in belief and practice the Adventist leaders abide by this decision they will have turned their great Church down the road to being a cult by denying the basic tenets of the Christian faith tonight on the John Ankerberg show the topic is seventh-day Adventism at the crossroads John's first guest is the widely respected adversus theologian author and pastor dr. Desmond Ford dr. Ford received his PhD from Manchester University England and has served as a theology professor at several Adventist seminaries and colleges he is the author of nine books and many articles published in Adventist journals and has sat on the highest doctrinal body of the church the biblical Research Institute Reverend Walter Ray is John's second guest he is a scholar author and pastor Reverend ray is recognized as the leading authority on the writings of lng white and has written more concerning her works than any other person now let's join John and his guests to examine seventh-day Adventism at the crossroads now we come to questions and answers from the audience and the last couple of weeks I've been meeting with people within seventh-day Adventism and gentlemen from what you've been saying as well as from what my first man who's going to ask a question here has been telling me there is some hesitancy among even asking a question publicly about the things of lng white the writings and so on why are you hesitant to even ask a question or to maybe ask a question just of inquiry well largely because of the prejudicial views some people will hold that if you have anything at all to say that may be cast doubt upon what the church has done then your head can be on the chopping block you can be suspected of being a heretic a dissident and so on and right away you may find people that you thought were friends are no longer friends is this widespread in our country it is widespread I'd like to speak to that for just a moment because I think it's tremendously important there's an i we joke a little but we're not as opposed as we might seem in a lot of areas but this area I think he does recognize as I do that says there is a tightening hardening of the lines in Adventism that is almost unbelievable when we both seen this that is I have been banned as well as des from all of the colleges including our university men in the theological Department that should know and should talk with us and should be knowledgeable to meet whatever objections there might come are not allowed to meet with us they're not even allowed to be here tonight in fact the very presence of this man might jeopardize and to prove that let me read a letter that has just come it's a confidential letter from a conference in Africa but I could duplicate this in America in Australia in other places notice what it says it says unauthorized tapes and literature whereas there has been an influx of tapes and literature distributed to our members and workers des tapes my tapes how many does well there's at least half a million in America or more huh and I can see why they have their finger on you whereas and whereas the contents have been questioned with regard to its conformity to the fundamental beliefs of the church voted that a conference tape and screening committee be appointed to screen tapes and literature that have not been promoted or compiled by the regular denominational sources should it be brought to the attention of the conference committee that any worker has questionable tapes in his or her possession which are being circulated among other workers and members the committee would view this in a serious light and would no doubt take suitable action this is almost unbelievable whose dust could that come from this came from the office of the president of that particular conference in Africa not and I have others that have come from Australia invoking the name of the General Conference before you go on further you still on ask a question well think about it does what you go there it looks like these our root causes the problem a book like this makes ordinary chairs Omega this is a book by an Adventist lawyer an able writer who has suggested that a prediction of Ellen White about apostasy which he named by the last letter of the Greek alphabet the Omega is now being fulfilled in such things as for deny it does not name forward and right but when Smuts van roy who works with us sent a personal inquiry to the author he did not deny it and this book causes church members to look at each other because it seems to suggest there are demons in human form in Adventist pews and you see that creates quite a problem and the church is promoting this book even though it's scholars and its archivists have rejected it and said it has many errors historical and theand theological now I must admit there are many in the General Conference that are now opposed to the book and regret it has ever been advocated but sadly the review and Herald has now put out a second book the same ones like the review is the publishing Association it's most prominent in Washington DC for Mary Morgan of the church log of the church and this book is being sent out free to the ministers with such statements as this some of the areas under attack right now are the validity of the spirit of prophecy the scriptural basis for the doctrine of the sanctuary particularly investigative judgment and even the place of the Ten Commandments and the Sabbath these from influential people of our own number so it is a sense of paranoia that these books are fostering that do cause difficult relations in the churches but I add this before you cut me off because you have much to add the problems in Adventism don't just grow out of seventh-day Adventists a grant of humanity and similar problems are found in every church group that I know of that has any life in it but we're parasites only are attached to living things some churches in the past been so dead you couldn't get a heresy in you know wherever there's an excitement over heresy there is still life now in dispensational groups in this country you can't get the lecture circuit if you deny the pre-tribulation rapture in many areas so please let's not think these problems are because of Adventism they come from humanity Adventist human nature's know no worse another human nature no better without and no better okay I think that we would agree with that and I think we're sorry to hear it in any yes yes Bureau this watch is not just that now we ought to lighten it up a little this came from Australians is coming soon to your friendly Adventist book center Omega that's the one that he's talking about which I paraphrases say that it's main thrust is if anybody has an IQ over eighty-five they're a threat to the Adventist Church and I put on my ger in a picture on the back Iowa touch salad let's move on what was your question my question is this I think dr. Ford touched on the humanity of it could it be that the church administration is so upset over this whole situation mainly because they are losing their ability and power to manipulate people because so often as in well other Protestant circles and so on you may superstition Lee superstitiously quote scripture in an attempt to manipulate someone whether it be for collecting offering for something or whether it be in communion or houseguest or whatever else there has always been this application of Scripture so binding as to be used as a weapon as a tool and now that you have shall we say brought to light some different perspectives the church administration is greatly threatened because suddenly their power and ability ability to manipulate diminishes I think both Ford and I agree in this area that there's been a vast abuse of Alan Gy correct and I think both of our Crusades are that we would like to make them free in Jesus Christ and the gospel of Christ diminish mrs. white to whatever rule God led her play but not make her the authority and faith and doctrine and thus they would lose control but we believe that the control comes through the Holy Spirit through Jesus Christ each man his own priest before God rather than a system that says you must do this or you'll be thrown out is there a fear that you won't have seventh-day Adventism if you get rid of L&G why they fear this I don't why would somebody fear that you won't have it what they fear is they'll lose the control such as we're seeing of course you would lose some of your major pillars to your distinctive doctrines that means I didn't originate with Ellen White no doctrine the Adventist Church came with Ellen White but you still hold it they could change let us say the wrong use of Ellen White is used to support them John let me add before the questioner comes please it would be quite wrong to say that all the administrators are in some terrible scheme because two people down administrators are like the rest of us they're a mixed group and all of us here in our Adventist administrated we could live and die with see but they're there like the people in the pew and the ministers they're a mixed group and sometimes temptation the overwhelming you're also on your way to Washington to talk with the administrative structure as the president asked me to go there last week and I had talked with them they have told us where they're unhappy with us and we've told them we were unhappy with them and we're good friends a few days ago a friend wrote to request cassette tapes of this series in his letter he said I want to share the tapes with some friends who are struggling with this very problem I especially appreciate that you present the evidence so clearly and that it points to the truth of God's Word and that's the purpose of the John Ankerberg show to take a difficult issue and examine it in the light of God's Word if you'd like to share the programs in this series with a friend or use it for your own personal study audio cassettes are available upon request for a contribution of $15 the address is the John Ankerberg show box 89 77 Chattanooga Tennessee 374 1 1 now if you'd like to have the series in written form printed transcripts are also available for a contribution of $5 and when you write please be sure to give the name of the series so we know what to send you the address again the John Ankerberg show box 89 77 Chattanooga Tennessee 374 1 1 the seventh-day Adventist Church originally gained credibility in evangelical circles back in 57 when Walter mark excuse me Walter Martin and Donald Barnhouse approached the church to ascertain whether Adventists were Christians Walter Martin and Barnhouse concluded that Adventists were Christians but those were based on deceptive answers that they received from the denomination my question today is based on what we know about the pillars of the church in 1844 our Adventist Christian or seventh-day Adventist the denomination a cult like the Javas witness or the Mormon Church would be considered can I say something John an answer that alright the vast majority of the men that teach a ministerial students and other students and the colleges in America Australia and other countries very much believe in the basic fundamentals of the Christian gospel they believe in the Trinity they believe in the deity of Christ I believe the substitutionary death of Jesus they believe in his virgin birth they believe the Second Coming so on those fundamental pillars of the faith the vast majority of the teachers are agreed the same would be true with a large number of the ministry particularly those who have been trained at these institutions however as the questioner implies there's also a group which would have questions in some of these areas but year by year it is a lessening group it is true to say adventism has been on advancing ground it is thrown out error after error in its period of existence I could I could name about 20 of them beginning with the position that like arianism and denying the Trinity Arianism is detained at Christ's acacia yes that's right Adventist many of them held these views and in complete atonement many of these positions have been repudiated the years go by I want five I don't press you though okay let me press you yes do you feel that the majority of the hierarchy right now believes that Jesus Christ lived a sinless life yes definitely but it would have to admit that some are teaching other things right now well unfortunately there are some who have believed that Jesus had a sinful nature and yet lived a sinless life and that puts the heat on us because it means that we with a sinful nature are expected to have a similar attainment and that's what really kills the gospel because it makes Jesus an example rather than a savior okay but if Walter Martin and Anthony hakama hokhmah said that is so the evidence was a cult because he believed that Walter Martin was wrong in accepting this gentleman just said here a few moments ago the statements he didn't believe that it represented all some of the evidence it didn't represent also have they hadn't it certainly represented the thinking majority of the scholars of the church but it's not all seven they addressed let me give you a hypothetical let's go back this thing if the denomination takes the next step and hardens up the line and makes LNG white an extra scriptural source of authority which is a possibility denies justification by grace alone in the sense that the investigative judgment stays in there we become a cult if we take those two steps which deny the gospel and you have a devaluation of Christ namely he had a sinful nature to do not stranger the church will ever do with Ellen White what you have suggested but if if that's true they did we would have left Protestantism Protestantism is the Bible and the Bible only as the sole source of authority for doctrine which was a position that Ellen White personally held Chrissa I would to comment as a pastor John and that is I found as a pastor that my people knew the what we call the red books would get much of their instruction and inspiration or whatever from mrs. white but they very seldom ever mentioned Jesus Christ as a moving force in their life or the peace or the fruits of the spirit that come only through Jesus Christ in the Holy Spirit and my concern always was as a pastor but you have superseded while technically for it is correct in that we have declared since our inception that we believe in the Bible as the only rule of faith in practice every Adventist knows that Ellen White is still the one that must interpret that scripture or it's not accepted I think this keeps us from the real gospel and the real personal experience of Jesus Christ about this thing what about this thing to it the group is the exclusive group the exclusive community and Christendom to witness to Christ the remnant this is based on very poor exegesis revelation 12:17 is speaking about a remnant yet to be developed questions on doctrine said that all faithful Christians are potential members of that remnant but most small religious groups have a tendency to an inferiority complex which is compensated for by some extravagant claims Adventists have been guilty in that area but the things that Walter has just said do fit many parts of North America but it shouldn't be thought that this necessarily fits the whole world field I know hundreds of us I've trained hundreds of ministers in part and they do know the gospel and they do speak of Jesus what Walter says is true and many it is not necessarily true of all of Adventism the problem that I have noticed in preparing for this program before you meant arrived was to meet with men in this area and I'm not going to name names because they felt they could lose their job they know the gospel yes they're afraid to say it thousands of Adnan's ministers know the gospel and many of the Lyautey know the gospel in Australia you taught most of the guys that are in the clergy they're in Australia yeah ok taking all of this what hope do you see for the future if the church will be honest to God and get down the biblical evidence there's not a basis for 1844 is a biblical doubt on the scholars know it the church needs to admit it if the church will be honest to God God will bless the church it has much to offer the Christian world I think a lot of people want to know if the church goes the other direction let's say in the weeks ahead because we don't know at the taping of this program you're go see the leadership in Washington you have both been defrocked in the sense that you cannot preach you cannot meet on the campuses and so on if your membership were to be taken away and these things that evangelicals have asked hoping that you would not say that L&G white is as authoritative as the scripture that lady would that's okay that position will never be taken you don't think they'll change the church would never survive but took that position because every man that teaches the college almost is opposed to such a position the vast majority of ministry is opposed to such a position it's not quite the same proportion in the administration but there's a large number of Ministers that are very much opposed to making Ellen White equal whether what I was going is that I've heard that there were 120 educators and pastors that when you are fired yes over what you disagreed with yes they too lost their jobs and some of the men that were meeting with me in pretty solid positions they knew that they were on the carpet for preaching quote-unquote just the gospel now what I'm saying is I'm starting to feel what some of those fellas because I got families they don't know what they're gonna do next it is tragic it is tragic the church must be honest to god it's going to have the blessing of God it must be there's work to be done of repentance and restoration and change well for many of the evangelicals that are watching this program tonight I think that sad to say they have lumped the seventh-day adventists together with other cults that I could name all right this program tonight hopefully in hearing you fellows talk about your desire to have the denomination turn to the pure gospel to CL ng white as she herself as you see what she is saying be presented to the rest of the folks in your denomination is not equal and authority with Scripture but as an advisor like Calvin or Luther ya to the denomination and that you your great desires to have that and for other evangelicals to pray that this would happen I'm in Cottrill has said who was a leading theologian and an editor in our paper said that neither for nor ray our enemies of the church they come as a friend I think he said it well okay final question like the first mega Statham then ask a question I'm a member of the board of trustees of Andrews University which includes our seminary I'm from out of town not from this area but it also I'm concerned that Adventists are being portrayed in a wrong light tonight I feel like most people in other churches feel like they can ask questions I ask questions in my church I've been on the board of Andrews six years I'm not afraid of losing my job I speak out on the board we do have questions in the church going on today and especially regarding sister white as many people call it mrs. white I feel like a lot of this is good for the church in in certain way I think dr. Ford particularly I think is an honest man the way I perceive him I hope that a lot of her administrators will tend to study into this I'd like to ask elder ray pastor ray why he took such a derogatory view not only of Adventists but entire Christendom speaking of the TV super salesman when I do read sister White's book sice I perceive love I cannot love to us I come through the book when I have read almost all of elder race book I get a feeling of hate a feeling of being something is coming through there there's not love and it's not Christian okay why was it my answer my answer that is that in the critique that the church is promoting at the present time the truth about the white lie I think they make some very false statements for example the statement that he just said is that I make fun of all religion nothing could be further from the truth I do declare that I make I certainly look in a derogatory way on all systems that become a political system to use the people's money to control them and to drive away the gospel of the large so I would say that of Adventism or Mormonism or Catholicism or anything else so I'm striking out in the book against that type of abuse and I also say if they read it carefully there are many faithful honest Christian ministers who do serve in that capacity I think the book because they couldn't fairly deal with the evidence is now trying to smear my character and this is characteristic of all who have come to where I have in the past and that also is true a fourth forward at the present time I think also the criticism that I'm getting in the mail twenty or thirty to one from the layman are not saying what the administrators are saying when I saw I could not get an honest hearing in the Adventist intellectual community by some scholarly method because the church defrocked the guru of gurus the man who was known as the spiritual head of our theology who had put two PhDs the church left me no alternative but to meet one extreme with another that's why I use the method that I did however I am finding that those who are honest enough to read the book a second time and a third time who can honestly speak out you have yet to demonstrate to this group or to me or to anyone else that any man can honestly critique my book and give it favorable comment and publicity who's working for the denomination when I find that that's true then I think you'll get a different criticism such as many people I have letters that are saying you know I appreciate the book you have spoken forthrightly and honestly and the second time over it does present its message so that's my own okay what we have to do is we're out of time here and for further conversation you fellows are willing to talk about this sadly and we open this conversation for you to return with hopefully some of the leaders and we would like to see progress as other evangelicals that are looking in we hope I hope that others that are my friends and other denominations that are loved or we'll pray for the seventh-day Adventist young opinions can be wrong but love never is that's got a goddess alright good night thank you gentlemen for being with us would you mind if I asked you a question you think you can hold the gospel and the concept of the investigative judgment at the same time if you say yes then I assume you believe Ellen White was correct in telling us Jesus began his investigative judgment of all Christians in 1844 now if so if Jesus were to investigate your life now would you pass his test can you say that you're living perfectly right now remember if you hold to the investigative judgment it means that even though you have accepted Christ and received his forgiveness according to Ellen White you are still not safe you must use God's grace to clean up your life have you done that what about every lustful thought every harmful word every wrong motive for service every relationship in your family life can you say there have been no problems no faults no slips can you honestly say you have conquered your sins and are living perfectly right now are you ready for Jesus to investigate you at this moment if you say no hey I'm not living perfectly then it's possible you might be investigated by Jesus tonight according to Ellen White and you might be found wanting and you might lose your salvation forever but let me ask you is that good news is that the gospel that you hold hope not the Bible says in Romans 5:1 therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ now if we are justified that is judged or pronounced free from the penalty of our sin at that moment God judges me pronounces me free from the consequences of all my sin but then where does it say he will judge me again where does it say that what God did because of Christ is not enough what further tests does god impose on us the only test in scripture is the gospel itself whether you will receive God's free gift of salvation or reject it the gospel is God's gift if I accept his gift the Bible says that the Holy Spirit enters my life and seals me there are no special groups who have special privileges because they do certain things that others do not every person who believes in Jesus Christ is said to be one with him now if you leave the Adventist Church can you still be saved yes Jesus saves you because he loves you God forgives you because of what Christ did for you not because of where you go to church or whether you obey more Bible commands than others the ultimate test is not keeping the Sabbath or which church you attend the ultimate test is have you accepted or rejected Jesus Christ's free gift of salvation the Bible says if you have placed your faith in Him God looks at Jesus work for you and declares forever you are free from his judgment he gives you eternal life

Channel: 88denver99

Views: 123,559

Rating: 4.1351352 out of 5

Keywords: Desmond Ford

Id: RnO8BfYqbbg

Length: 77min 25sec (4645 seconds)

Published: Fri Apr 05 2013

Reddit Comments

[u/cybersaint2k]

I worked in an SDA hospital situation in Orlando getting my clinical pastoral education hours in the early 90s. The SDA there were all over the map. Baptists with a good diet, apocalyptic cult members, and ultra-skilled Bartian chaplains--I met them all. Really respected the Bartian. She was like Yoda, but a chaplain.

Could not recommend anyone go to an SDA church. EG White's false teachings are just the beginning. But Kingdom of the Cults (Walter Martin) couldn't call them a cult; he found them a church with a true evangelical core but one that did no discipline against heretics and heresy.

[u/OneSalientOversight]

If you're not going to watch the whole thing, just watch a minute from here, where Desmond Ford explains the issue.