WOMAN: IN THE 1960s AND THE 1970s, THERE WAS A LOOSELY AFFILIATED GROUP OF ARTISTS LIVING IN LOS ANGELES WHO GREW UP WORKING THROUGH PAINTING AND INFLUENCED BY ABSTRACT EXPRESSIONISM, BUT BY THE MID-SIXTIES, THEY WERE LOOKING FOR EVER SUBTLER KIND OF EFFECTS, AND SO YOU COULD ALMOST SAY THAT LIGHT WAS THEIR MEDIUM. MAN: RATHER THAN PAINT AND CANVAS, YOU'VE GOT SOMETHING THAT HAS 3 DIMENSION AND IS FULL OF AMBIGUITY AND FULL OF MYSTERY. DIFFERENT MAN: IRWIN AND LARRY BELL AND HELEN PASHGIAN, ALL OF THESE ARTISTS, ARE AT THE TOP OF THEIR GAME NOW. ANNOUNCER: THIS PROGRAM WAS MADE POSSIBLE IN PART BY: A GRANT FROM ANNE RAY FOUNDATION, A MARGARET A. CARGILL PHILANTHROPY; THE CITY OF LOS ANGELES DEPARTMENT OF CULTURAL AFFAIRS; THE LOS ANGELES COUNTY DEPARTMENT OF ARTS AND CULTURE; AN AWARD FROM THE NATIONAL ENDOWMENT FOR THE ARTS, ON THE WEB AT ARTS.GOV; AND THE CALIFORNIA ARTS COUNCIL. WOMAN: I SPENT A GREAT DEAL OF TIME AT THE BEACH GROWING UP. FROM THE AGE OF 3 OR 4, I CAN REMEMBER RUNNING DOWN THE BEACH, MY TINY LEGS, TO THE TIDE POOLS, AND I CAN REMEMBER BEING FASCINATED WITH THE RIPPLE OF LIGHT ACROSS THE SURFACE, AND I WOULD LOOK INSIDE AND SEE THE TINY CREATURES MOVING, AND THEN I WOULD SEE THE LIGHT GOING THROUGH THE WATER AND MAKING PATTERNS ON THE SAND OR ON THE ROCKS, THAT I WOULD STAY THERE FOR HOURS AND PUT MY LITTLE FINGERS IN THERE AND PLAY WITH THE WATER. I CAN REMEMBER THAT VERY CLEARLY. WOMAN: IN THE 1960s AND THE 1970s, THERE WAS A LOOSELY AFFILIATED GROUP OF ARTISTS LIVING IN LOS ANGELES WHO GREW UP WORKING THROUGH PAINTING AND INFLUENCED BY ABSTRACT EXPRESSIONISM, BUT BY THE MID-SIXTIES, THEY WERE LOOKING FOR EVER SUBTLER KIND OF EFFECTS, AND SO YOU COULD ALMOST SAY THAT LIGHT WAS THEIR MEDIUM. THERE WAS AN INTEREST AMONG CRITICS AND CURATORS TO COME UP WITH A NAME OR A CATEGORY TO DESCRIBE THIS KIND OF WORK, AND SO AMBIENT ART, ENVIRONMENTAL ART, AND LIGHT AND SPACE WERE ALL TERMS THAT WERE COINED AND USED AT DIFFERENT TIMES. MAN: WELL, THERE WAS NO CATEGORY WHEN I STARTED OUT. I MADE THE CATEGORY. MAN: LIGHT AND SPACE. YOU CAN'T SEE ANYTHING IF THERE'S NO LIGHT, AND YOU CAN'T PUT ANYTHING DOWN UNLESS THERE'S SPACE, SO EVERYTHING THAT HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH WEIGHT AND MASS HAS TO DO WITH LIGHT AND SPACE ALSO. PASHGIAN: IT'S ABOUT THE EXPLORATION, IT'S ABOUT THE ENCOUNTER, IT'S ABOUT THE JOURNEY INTO THAT WORK. SO IT'S A DIFFERENT EXPERIENCE, BUT IT'S ALL ABOUT THE EXPERIENCE. MAN: THERE IS CLEARLY A SHARED INTEREST IN LIGHT, IN THE LIGHT CHANNELING PROPERTIES OF DIFFERENT KINDS OF MATERIALS, IN THE BREAKING FREE OF CONVENTIONAL FORMATS, OF SCULPTURE AND PAINTING OR MOVING INTO LARGER ENVIRONMENTAL ENGAGEMENTS WITH SPACE. PART OF WHAT UNITES THESE ARTISTS IS THIS INTEREST IN ALLOWING PERCEPTION TO KIND OF GROW BEYOND THE CATEGORIES OF HABITUAL EXPERIENCE, THE WAY THAT WE ORGANIZE THE WORLD AND COME AT IT WITH CERTAIN CATEGORIES INTACT. BEYOND THIS, THERE IS AN INTEREST IN AMBIGUITY, THE AMBIGUITY OF SHAPE AND FORM AND--TO THINK ABOUT THE WAY HELEN PASHGIAN PUTS THIS--THIS DISCONNECT BETWEEN WHAT WE SEE AND WHAT WE THINK WE KNOW ABOUT WHAT WE'RE SEEING. PASHGIAN: IT ALL REVOLVES AROUND THE SUN, THE LIGHT, THE PERVASIVE LIGHT IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA, WHICH I'VE ALWAYS THOUGHT OF AS VERY COOL AS OPPOSED TO THE WARM MEDITERRANEAN LIGHT OF THE SOUTH OF FRANCE OR SPAIN. PEOPLE CAME HERE AND BUILT A LOT OF WHITE BUILDINGS STARTING WITH THE OLD SANITARIUMS THAT WERE DONE IN THE MOUNTAINOUS TOWNS, AND THEN AS THE CAR CULTURE GREW AND AS MORE AND MORE OF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA BECAME PAVED OVER, THE LIGHT CHANGED I THINK. I THINK IT WAS ALWAYS REFRACTING AND REFLECTING OFF OF ALL THESE SURFACES. THE LIGHT IS ALWAYS SHIFTING HERE. RATHER BY DEFAULT, I STUDIED ART HISTORY. I WAS FASCINATED BY DUTCH PAINTING PARTICULARLY, NOT JUST THE VERMEERS BUT SOME OF THE OUTDOOR LANDSCAPES. MANY OF THESE PAINTINGS HAD A VERY COOL LIGHT, WHICH I RESPONDED TO BECAUSE I THOUGHT IT WAS LIKE THE CALIFORNIA LIGHT. AND THE INTERIORS OF VERMEER WITH VERY CALM, VERY COMPOSED SETTINGS. I WAS INTERESTED IN THE LIGHT THAT ALWAYS CAME FROM A SINGLE SOURCE OUTSIDE A WINDOW AND WOULD DEFINE THE INTERIOR OF THE ROOM. I WAS INTERESTED IN THE LIGHT, THE ATMOSPHERE THAT SEEMED TO PERVADE THE ROOM. I WAS TRYING TO UNDERSTAND HOW THAT WORKED. IT WAS MOST INTRIGUING TO ME AND STILL IS. WHEN I BEGAN TO WORK, I WAS TRYING TO CAPTURE THE LIGHT AS IT ENTERED THE ROOM. IRWIN: I STARTED AS A PAINTER, YOU KNOW, AND I MADE THESE PAINTINGS, WHICH WERE VERY TEDIOUS AND LABORED. THEY LOOKED EFFORTLESS, BUT THEY WERE NOT... AND THEN SLOWLY, I STARTED LETTING IT TAKE OVER AND RUN WITH IT, YOU KNOW. I BECAME A KIND OF HALF SCULPTOR. STARTED TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT IS IT WE'RE REALLY DOING HERE, AND WHAT IS IT THAT ART CONTRIBUTES? WHAT IS THE DIALOGUE? WHAT IS THE MATERIAL AND THE PROCESS THAT ONE IS INVOLVED IN IN MAKING ART? IS THERE INFORMATION HERE THAT'S ADDING TO, IN A SENSE, THE OVERALL DIALOGUE, AND IF IT'S NOT, THEN WHAT EXACTLY DOES ART DO? A LOT OF IT'S JUST GAME PLAYING, YOU KNOW?. PLAYING GAMES WITH YOUR OWN HEAD. PLAYING GAMES WITH YOUR OWN EYE, PUSHING, PUSHING, PUSHING, TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT MAKES SOMETHING INTERESTING. ONE OF THE THINGS ABOUT BEING AN ARTIST FOR ME WAS IT WAS A GREAT PLAYPEN. THERE WERE NO RULES. I TRIED NOT TO WORK WITH ANY RULES. BELL: WELL, MY FIRST REAL STUDIO WAS IN OCEAN PARK. IT WAS A BIG EMPTY ROOM EXCEPT THAT IT WASN'T REALLY EMPTY. IT WAS FULL OF CORNERS. THERE WERE CORNERS EVERYWHERE. I REALIZED THAT IT DIDN'T TAKE VERY MUCH STUFF TO OCCUPY A SPACE, AND EACH OF THOSE THINGS BECAME DYNAMIC ELEMENTS. THAT MEANT THAT... THE CORNERS OCCUPIED THE SPACE TOO, AND SO THE WORK I MADE WAS KIND OF A RESPONSE TO THE VOLUME THAT I WORKED IN. IN THE BEGINNING, I WAS PAINTING FLAT SURFACES, AND THEY ENDED UP BEING ILLUSTRATIONS OF VOLUMES, AND AFTER A CERTAIN POINT, I REALIZED THAT I WAS NOT GETTING ANYWHERE WITH THIS ILLUSTRATION OF A VOLUME. I DECIDED I WOULD MAKE THE VOLUMES INSTEAD OF MAKING ILLUSTRATIONS OF THEM, AND I'D USE GLASS TO DO SO, AND ALL OF A SUDDEN, I WAS A SCULPTOR INSTEAD OF A PAINTER, AND JUST THE TRANSITION INTO THAT PLACE WAS SO NATURAL I FELT I HAD A RIGHTEOUS DRIVE GOING AND I BEST NOT GIVE UP ON IT. I FELT STRONG. IT GAVE ME A SENSE OF STRENGTH WHICH LED TO A SENSE OF PURPOSE. I THINK THAT'S WHEN I STARTED TO BECOME A REAL ARTIST, IF THERE'S SUCH A THING. PASHGIAN: I THINK THE ART WORLD WAS TINY, AND I DIDN'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT IT. I WAS BRAND-NEW TO IT. IT WAS A VERY, VERY SMALL GROUP OF PEOPLE, AND I REALLY KNEW NONE OF THEM. THE YOUNG ARTISTS ALL LIVED IN VENICE. BELL: VENICE WAS AN INTERESTING PLACE TO HAVE A STUDIO. IT WAS AN AREA IN EXTREME DECLINE. HOWEVER, IT WAS QUITE REASONABLE IN TERMS OF PRICE BECAUSE ALL THE STORES WERE EMPTY, AND LANDLORDS WERE HAPPY TO HAVE ANYBODY IN THERE TO KEEP THE SQUATTERS OUT, AND APARTMENTS WERE ANYWHERE FROM $18 TO $30 A MONTH FOR A VERY LIVABLE LITTLE PLACE RIGHT AT THE BEACH. THE AIR IS GREAT THERE, AND IT WAS A COLLECTION OF VERY INTERESTING PEOPLE. THERE WAS A LOT OF CREATIVITY, AND MY FRIENDS HAD STUDIOS ON THE NEXT STREET. IRWIN: WE JUST WORKED ALL DAY, AND THEN WE'D GO TO CHEZ JAY'S FOR BEER AT NIGHT. IT WAS A VERY EXCITING, JAZZED UP SCENE. BELL: WE'D GO TO BARNEY'S BEANERY, OR THE GUYS WOULD COME TO THE CLUB THAT I WORKED IN. IT WAS FUN. WE HAD A GOOD TIME. I AND MY FRIENDS DID A LOT OF SURFING. KENNY PRICE AND ED MOSES AND BILLY AL BENGSTON AND BOB IRWIN AND ALL THOSE PEOPLE WERE ALL BOARD SURFERS. NOT VERY MANY PEOPLE, BUT THE WATER WAS PERFECT, AND THE SURF WAS GREAT. PASHGIAN: I GUESS WE WERE ALL SURFERS AS FAR AS I KNOW. THIS IS HOW WE GAVE THE IMPRESSION THAT WE WERE FRIVOLOUS, THAT THIS WAS OF NO IMPORTANCE, AND I THINK THE ARTISTS, IN FACT, WERE VERY SERIOUS ABOUT WHAT THEY WERE DOING. CLARK: SO FOR THE ARTISTS IN L.A. WHO WERE INTERESTED PARTICULARLY IN PERCEPTION AND LIGHT AND ENVIRONMENTAL EFFECTS MORE THAN MAKING DISCRETE OBJECTS, THEY LANDED ON USING TRANSPARENT, TRANSLUCENT, AND REFLECTIVE MATERIALS TO KIND OF CREATE AN ENVIRONMENT AND MAKE A PERSON MORE AWARE OF THEIR OWN SURROUNDINGS, AND THEY USED MATERIALS THAT THEY BORROWED FROM THE AEROSPACE INDUSTRY AND FROM COMMERCIAL SIGNAGE AND EVEN FROM AUTOMOTIVE CULTURE, AND THESE INCLUDED SPRAY LACQUERS THAT WERE USED ON CARS AND SURFBOARDS, DIFFERENT TYPES OF RESINS AND ACRYLICS THAT WERE USED IN COMMERCIAL INDUSTRY, AND EVEN IN THE MILITARY INDUSTRY, AND THEY WERE MOST ATTRACTED TO THE TRANSPARENCY AND REFLECTIVE QUALITIES OF THESE MATERIALS AND HOW FROM ONE ANGLE THEY WOULD HAVE A CERTAIN ASPECT OR APPEARANCE AND FROM ANOTHER ANGLE THEY MIGHT LOOK COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. PASHGIAN: I FOUND THIS POLYESTER RESIN AS A LITTLE KIT FOR CRAFT MAKERS AND STARTED MAKING SOME VERY SMALL PIECES. I WAS EXCITED ABOUT THOSE, AND I WAS DOING DIFFERENT SHAPES AND EXPERIMENTING WITH IT, AND THEN IT GREW AND GREW AND GREW. THAT MATERIAL HAD NEVER BEEN AVAILABLE BEFORE BECAUSE IT WAS DECLASSIFIED FOR WORLD WAR II, AND SOMEHOW IT MADE ITS WAY TO THESE SHOPS. MANY OF US FOUND IT. 6 OR 7 OF US OR MORE FOUND IT AT THE SAME TIME. BECAUSE OF THIS TOXICITY, IT WAS VERY DIFFICULT TO USE, BUT THIS WAS A DRAW. THESE MATERIALS WERE SO SEDUCTIVE. YOU COULD ADD COLOR DYES TO THEM, YOU COULD MANIPULATE THEM. MANY OF THEM SELF-DESTRUCTED IF THEY WERE OVER OR UNDER CATALYZED, BUT YOU HAD TO--I LEARNED EARLY ON THAT YOU HAD TO BE EXTREMELY CAREFUL, OR THEY WOULD CONTROL YOU, THE ARTIST. THERE WAS REALLY NO ONE TO GUIDE ANY OF US AT THAT TIME, SO WE JUST WENT OFF TO OUR STUDIOS, AND WE WORKED WITH IT UNTIL WE GOT SOMETHING THAT SEEMED TO WORK, AND THEN WE WOULD EXPAND ON IT AND GET BIGGER AND BIGGER. THE AEROSPACE INDUSTRY BEING HERE HAD A GREAT DEAL TO DO WITH THIS KIND OF MATERIAL THAT WE USE AND MANY OTHERS. NARRATOR: THIS IS JPL, THE JET PROPULSION LABORATORY. PASHGIAN: AND SO IT WAS A GREAT PLACE FOR ARTISTS AT THAT TIME TO EXPERIMENT WITH NEW MATERIALS. THEY WERE VERY WILLING TO HELP US, TO HELP PUT US IN TOUCH WITH SOME OF THE CHIEF CHEMISTS THAT WERE THEMSELVES EXPERIMENTING BUT IN A VERY DIFFERENT WAY, AND SO WE LEARNED LITTLE BY LITTLE. I THINK PROBABLY WE LEARNED MOSTLY FROM OUR OWN EXPERIMENTS, IN MY CASE MOSTLY FAILURES. FOR A COUPLE OF YEARS, I WAS A RESIDENT ARTIST AT CALTECH, AND THERE WERE A FEW OF US WORKING IN THIS MATERIAL. ABOUT THAT TIME, IT BECAME CLEAR TO MANY OF THE ARTISTS THAT THIS WAS TOO DANGEROUS TO USE. I MYSELF BEGAN EXPERIMENTING WITH EPOXIES THAT WERE SUPPOSED TO BE NOT QUITE SO DANGEROUS. NOW I'M WORKING WITH URETHANES. SO IT'S BEEN A PROCESS. IT'S BEEN A LONG TIME. [HISSING] SIMMS: HELEN IS INTERESTED IN THE WAY THAT LIGHT CHANGES AS IT MOVES INTO A MEDIUM LIKE PLASTIC THAT IS ANALOGOUS IN SOME WAYS TO WATER BECAUSE IT SLOWS LIGHT DOWN, AND BECAUSE OF THAT, THERE ARE DISTORTIONS THAT HAPPEN, ILLUSIONS THAT TAKE PLACE THAT YOU'RE LOOKING AT, REFRACTION. THERE ARE LITTLE RAINBOWS AND ALL KIND OF THINGS THAN HAPPEN. THERE IS THIS CONSISTENT INTEREST IN THAT INTERPLAY OF LIGHT THAT VERY OFTEN INVOLVES AN INTERPLAY BETWEEN REFLECTIVE SURFACES AND THEN CAST THINGS THAT ARE INSIDE. YOU'RE ALWAYS INVITED TO LOOK INTO HER PIECES. WHETHER YOU CAN GRASP WHAT'S INSIDE OR NOT IS ANOTHER QUESTION. SHE'S SUCH AN IMPORTANT ARTIST, AND SHE IS AN INNOVATOR. NO OTHER ARTIST IN THAT MIX DOES OR HAS DONE WHAT SHE IS DOING. SHE'S TRYING TO SEE HOW CAN YOU CREATE A SCULPTURE THAT RESPONDS THIS MUCH TO ITS CONTEXT, THAT IS NO LONGER AN OBJECT ON A PEDESTAL BUT PULLING IN ITS ENVIRONMENT. I LIKE TO THINK OF THEM AS, LIKE, ORGANISMS. THEY ARE ALIVE IN THEIR ENVIRONMENT, AND THEY'RE NEVER NOT INTERACTING WITH IT. THEY'RE NEVER OFF, AS IT WERE. THEY'RE ALWAYS ON. PASHGIAN: AND NOW, FOR THE LAST FEW YEARS, I'VE BEEN WORKING ON AN IDEA THAT I DID INITIALLY AT CALTECH IN 1970 OR 1969, WHICH WAS A 5-FOOT DISC. IT'S AN OBJECT, IT'S ON A PEDESTAL, BUT IT DISSOLVES TO BE FLOATING COLOR IN SPACE, AND IT'S STILL TECHNICALLY QUITE CHALLENGING AND AESTHETICALLY VERY CHALLENGING, BUT IT'S COMING INTO PLACE. SO THIS ROOM IS COMPLETELY DESIGNED AROUND A SINGLE PIECE RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE. I'M GOING TO BRING THE LIGHT DOWN LOW. WATCH WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THE COLOR BEGINS TO CONTRACT AND WHAT HAPPENS WITH YOUR EYE AND YOUR BRAIN. CLARK: I THINK THE WORK IS ABOUT MATERIALITY AND IMMATERIALITY, ABOUT SOMETHING IN THE STATE OF BECOMING OR DISSOLVING, A PERSON TAKING THE TIME TO CONTEMPLATE THOSE KINDS OF IDEAS AND BEING TRANSPORTED TO ANOTHER KIND OF WAY OF THINKING. WOMAN: IT'S FUNNY. I DON'T LIKE THE SUN IN NEW YORK, BUT I LIKE IT HERE. MAN: WELL, I'M GLAD YOU DO BECAUSE YOU'RE GOING TO GET A LOT OF IT, BABY. WOMAN: A LOT OF SUN? CLARK: SO IN THE SIXTIES AND SEVENTIES IN THE STATES, YOU HAD ARTISTS WORKING WITH LIGHT, PARTICULARLY IN LOS ANGELES, AND THEIR KIND OF PEERS WORKING IN NEW YORK, WHO WERE FOCUSING ON MAYBE SERIAL GEOMETRIC FORMS THAT WOULD BE ALIGNED WITH THINGS LIKE MINIMALISM. SIMMS: LIGHT AND SPACE IS SOMETIMES REFERRED TO AS WEST COAST MINIMALISM. THE DIFFICULTY--AND THIS IS MAYBE TRUE OF MORE THAN JUST THE LIGHT AND SPACE GROUP BUT MINIMALISM AND ALL THE OTHERS--IS THAT THESE CATEGORIES TEND TO HAVE BEEN GENERATED BY ART CRITICS FIRST AND THEN RECYCLED BY ART HISTORIANS SECOND SO THAT THEIR FUNCTION IS TO CLEAN UP THE FIELD, TO GET EVERYBODY INTO THESE KIND OF GROUPS SO THAT THEY CAN THEN BE PITTED AGAINST EACH OTHER. PASHGIAN: THE EAST COAST VERSUS WEST COAST SCHISM, I MIGHT CALL IT--THERE WAS REAL ANTAGONISM TO WHAT THEY CALLED "CALIFORNIA ART," IN QUOTES, OFTEN, AND I THINK THAT THEY THOUGHT THAT FRIVOLOUS WASN'T A GOOD THING, THAT, YOU KNOW, THESE WERE KIDS IN CALIFORNIA. WE WERE ALL VERY YOUNG, SOME OF THEM WERE MAKING SURFBOARDS, USING THE SAME MATERIALS USED TO MAKE SURFBOARDS, AND THAT WE WOULD BE EASILY DISTRACTED AND START SURFING, AND THEY SAID, "THIS IS NOTHING. THIS IS JUST ATMOSPHERE. THIS IS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. IT JUST SHOWS, YOU KNOW, THAT THOSE PEOPLE OUT THERE DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY'RE DOING. TOO MANY DRUGS, YOU KNOW, TOO MUCH--BRAINS ARE FRIED BY THE SUN," THE USUAL THINGS. SIMMS: I THINK THAT THEY HAVE BEEN, YOU KNOW, HISTORICALLY LESS TALKED ABOUT BECAUSE NEW YORK WAS SEEN AS THE CENTER OF THE ART WORLD BUT ALSO BECAUSE OF CERTAIN, YOU KNOW-- FRANKLY, SOME BIASES AGAINST WHAT A WEST COAST ART WOULD BE, THAT IT MIGHT BE, YOU KNOW, SURFING AND SUNSHINE AND ALL THESE THINGS OR, ON THE OTHER HAND, CORRUPTED BY AEROSPACE AND THE MILITARY-INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX. THE L.A. ARTISTS, BECAUSE THEY WERE WORKING WITH THINGS LIKE PLASTICS OR OTHER KINDS OF MATERIALS THAT SEEMED NEW, BECAME ASSOCIATED WITH THESE INDUSTRIES. CLARK: FOR THE ARTISTS WHO REALLY WORKED ON CULTIVATING PRISTINE SURFACES, LIKE HELEN PASHGIAN AND LARRY BELL AND OTHERS WHO WORKED WITH RESIN LIKE PETER ALEXANDER, DE WAIN VALENTINE, SOMETIMES THAT FOCUS ON SURFACE WAS MISINTERPRETED AS BEING SUPERFICIAL, THE FACT THAT FOCUSING ON THE PHYSICAL SURFACE QUALITIES OF THE WORK SOMEHOW MEANT THAT THERE WAS NOTHING DEEPER TO BE EXPERIENCED THERE, BUT IT'S NOT TRUE THAT THE EAST COAST CRITICAL ESTABLISHMENT COMPLETELY IGNORED THIS WORK EITHER. I MEAN, BY THE SEVENTIES, JAMES TURRELL WORKING WITH LIGHT AND ROBERT IRWIN WERE GAINING TRACTION AND HAVING SOLO SHOWS IN IMPORTANT MUSEUMS, AND IN FACT, LARRY BELL HAD HIS FIRST SOLO SHOW IN NEW YORK IN THE MID-SIXTIES AT PACE GALLERY, AND IT COMPLETELY SOLD OUT. ARTISTS WHO WERE FOCUSING PRIMARILY ON LIGHT AND EXPERIENCE AND THE ARTISTS WHO WERE INTERESTED IN KIND OF HARD GEOMETRIC SCULPTURAL FORMS ASSOCIATED WITH MINIMALISM, THEY WERE ALL KIND OF MOVING THROUGH AND SHEDDING AND OVERCOMING THE DOMINANT IDIOM OF ABSTRACT EXPRESSIONISM. THE LIGHT ARTISTS WERE KIND OF DISSOLVING FORM AND CREATING ENVIRONMENTS, AND THE MINIMALISTS WERE CREATING KIND OF VERY CONCRETE FORMS, BUT WHAT THEY SHARED WAS AN INTEREST IN SHAKING OFF A KIND OF GESTURE THAT SEEMED OVERTLY EMOTIONAL OR EXPRESSIONISTIC, THEY WERE SHAKING OFF ANY KIND OF REPRESENTATION OR ILLUSTRATION QUALITIES, AND THEY WERE ALSO SHAKING OFF AUTOBIOGRAPHY. BELL: DURING THOSE YEARS, THERE WAS A GREAT DEAL OF RESEARCH INTO PLASTICS AND EPOXIES AND ADHESIVE MATERIALS AND ALL KINDS OF STUFF, BUT I WAS INTERESTED IN SOMETHING ELSE. I HAD A LITTLE JOB WORKING IN A PICTURE FRAMING SHOP FOR A WHILE, AND PART OF THE RESPONSIBILITIES OF THE JOB WAS TO CUT GLASS FOR PICTURE FRAMES. I GOT REALLY ENGAGED IN THE SURFACE QUALITY OF GLASS. IT WAS SOMETHING THAT'S UBIQUITOUS IN OUR LIVES, IT'S SOMETHING WE ALL TAKE FOR GRANTED LOOKING OUT THE WINDOW. GLASS WAS ONE OF THE MOST INTERESTING MATERIALS THAT I HAD EVER COME ACROSS BECAUSE, IN FACT, GLASS IS A SOLID LIQUID, AND IT DID 3 THINGS THAT NOTHING ELSE THAT I KNEW OF DID. IT TRANSMITTED LIGHT, IT ABSORBED LIGHT, AND IT REFLECTED LIGHT ALL AT THE SAME TIME AND HAD A BRITTLENESS AND A KIND OF STABILITY BECAUSE OF IT BEING MELTED SAND. IT HAD AN EXTRAORDINARY POTENTIAL SHELF LIFE, MILLIONS OF YEARS. SO I WAS REALLY INTERESTED IN THE FACT THAT IT BROKE A CERTAIN WAY AND THAT IT REFLECTED A CERTAIN WAY AND THAT IT CONTAINED A CERTAIN SPACE AND THAT THE SPACE BETWEEN ONE SIDE AND ANOTHER SIDE COMPRESSED THE LIGHT IN A VERY INTERESTING MANNER. NOTHING I KNEW OF OTHER THAN THAT DID THAT, AND SO SINCE IT WAS AVAILABLE EVERYWHERE, IT WAS NOT VERY EXPENSIVE, IT SEEMED LIKE A PERFECT MATERIAL TO USE FOR ARTWORK. SO I GOT HOOKED ON IT. [INDISTINCT CHATTER] MAN: COMMUNICATION. LIFTOFF. IRWIN: I GOT INVOLVED WITH A MAN NAMED ED WORTZ, WHO WAS DOING ALL THE PHYSIOLOGY FOR THE WALKS ON THE MOON. SO WE STARTED WORKING TOGETHER. I STARTED PLAYING AROUND WITH SOME OF HIS TOYS, KIND OF THINGS THAT HE DID. WE ALSO DID A SYMPOSIUM FOR NASA ON LONG-TERM SPACE TRAVEL. YOU DON'T GET AN OPPORTUNITY LIKE THAT VERY OFTEN TO SIT DOWN WITH PEOPLE FROM ANOTHER DISCIPLINE. IN THIS CASE, SOME OF THE MOST INTERESTING RESEARCHES BEING DONE WAS ALL THE QUESTIONS ABOUT BEING DISCONNECTED IN SPACE OVER A LONG PERIOD OF TIME, AND THOSE RAISE ALL KINDS OF QUESTIONS ABOUT ATMOSPHERE AND ABOUT THE NATURE OF THINGS, THE NATURE OF MATERIALS, AND THE KIND OF STUFF THAT'S GOING ON AROUND YOU WHEN NOTHING'S GOING ON AROUND YOU, BUT IT IS, AND ESSENTIALLY, ALL THAT FED BACK INTO MY WORK. BEING AN ARTIST STARTED BECOMING MUCH MORE A THING ABOUT INQUIRY. IT WAS NOT ABOUT MAKING PICTURES AND NOT ABOUT TELLING STORIES. IT WAS ABOUT EXAMINING WHO WE ARE, PERCEIVING BEINGS, AND INFORMATION IS COMING IN ON ALL KINDS OF LEVELS, AND CAN I WORK WITH THEM? CAN I PLAY WITH THEM? CAN I MAKE SOMETHING FROM THEM? SIMMS: HE BEGAN TO DEVELOP THE IDEA OF AN ART THAT WOULD BE RESPONSIVE TO CONTEXT RATHER THAN SORT OF GENERATED IN THE STUDIO. HIS IDEA WAS THAT, WELL, THE ART IS ALREADY HERE. IT'S JUST A MATTER OF TAKING WHAT'S ALREADY HERE AND TURNING IT INTO SOMETHING, TURNING IT INTO AN EVENT WHERE ONE STOPS AND NOTICES RATHER THAN JUST LOOKING AT THE ROOM AS A RECEPTACLE FOR SOMETHING ELSE. AND I THINK THAT REALLY KIND OF KICKED OFF THIS NEW NOTION OF WHAT IT MEANT TO MAKE ART. RATHER THAN CREATING AN AESTHETIC OBJECT AND RELEASING IT INTO THE WORLD, IT WAS FINDING WHAT WAS ALREADY OF AESTHETIC INTEREST IN THE WORLD AND MAKING IT POP SOMEHOW, DRAWING ATTENTION TO IT. NARRATOR: ART IS ONE OF THE WAYS THROUGH WHICH PERCEPTION IS CHANGED. THE ARTIST REORDERS OUR SENSES SO THAT OUR EXPERIENCE OF THE WORLD IS GIVEN NEW DIMENSION. HE FORCES US TO QUESTION WHAT WE SEE AND IF WE SEE. IRWIN: ART IS, IN A SENSE, YOU KNOW, BASICALLY NOT ANY DIFFERENT THAN ANY OTHER DISCIPLINE IN THAT SENSE. IT STRUCTURES THE WAY YOU SEE, THE WAY YOU LOOK, OR THE WAY, IN A SENSE, WHAT YOU LET IN AND HOW DO YOU DEFINE YOUR IDEA OF REAL. IT HAS DEVELOPED ITS OWN RATIONALE FOR ME, IT HAS NO OTHER REASON, NO OTHER FUNCTION, NO OTHER PURPOSE, NO OTHER BEING, IN A WAY, EXCEPT THE QUESTIONING OF JUST THE IDEA OF CONSCIOUSNESS. CLARK: ONE THING I WOULD SAY THAT UNITES THE WORK OF IRWIN AND BELL AND PASHGIAN IS THE SENSE OF DISCOVERY. ONE AT FIRST ENCOUNTERS A ROOM OR A SHAPE OR AN OBJECT OR A PLAY OF LIGHT, AND THESE THINGS CHANGE OVER TIME AND REWARD CLOSE LOOKING AND SLOW EXPERIENCE, AND IT IS THAT EXPERIENCE, I THINK, THAT IS AT THE CORE OF THESE WORKS. ALTHOUGH THEY STARTED PIONEERING THIS WORK OF THINKING ABOUT LIGHT AND PERCEPTION AS LONG AGO AS THE EARLY SIXTIES, THEY'RE STILL WORKING IN THIS VEIN, AND THEY'VE CONTINUED TO EXPLORE THESE IDEAS, AND THEY'VE CONTINUED TO GROW, AND EACH OF THEIR PRACTICES HAS BLOSSOMED AND EXPANDED. BELL: I MOVED HERE IN 1973 AND BEGAN A ROUTINE OF WORKING FOR 3 WEEKS IN L.A. AND THEN COME HOME AND WORK FOR 3 WEEKS PREPARING THE STUFF AND SO ON. ONE THING I REALIZED THAT YOU COULD DO HERE THAT I COULDN'T DO IN VENICE IS CONTROL MY DISTRACTIONS. THERE WAS SO MUCH LESS TO DO HERE SOCIALLY, AND I REALIZED THAT ONCE I GOT MYSELF TO WORK HERE IT WOULD BE GREAT. THIS IS VERY SLIPPERY, SO WATCH YOUR STEP. HOW YOU DOING? MAN: GOOD, LARRY. HOW ARE YOU? BELL: I WANTED THE SCULPTURES TO OPERATE IN PERIPHERAL VISION RATHER THAN JUST FOVEAL VISION JUST RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU BECAUSE I LIKED THE FEELING OF STUDYING THE SURFACES, BUT I WANTED THEM TO ENCOMPASS ME, AND SO I DECIDED TO ELIMINATE THE SHAPE OF THE CUBE AND JUST USE THE STRUCTURE OF THE CUBE, WHICH IS THE RIGHT ANGLES, AND MAKE THE PARTS MUCH LARGER. CLARK: HE DECIDED HE WANTED TO WORK ON A LARGER ARCHITECTURAL SCALE, AND HE DEVELOPED A BODY OF WORK CALLED STANDING WALLS, WHICH WERE ABOUT 6 FEET TALL AND SOMETIMES 6 FEET WIDE, AND THESE BECAME ENVIRONMENTS THAT WERE IMMERSIVE. BELL: I LIKE TO WORK PROGRESSIVELY FAST, AND IF I WORK FAST, IT TENDS TO BE MORE SPONTANEOUS AND INTUITIVE, AND THE DECISIONS ARE MORE IMPROVISATION. I MAKE UP THE CONFIGURATION OF THE PIECES. HOW THEY SIT ON THE FLOOR IN ANY GIVEN SPACE IS UNIQUE TO THE SPACE. THE WHOLE THING IS KIND OF A SURPRISE. EACH TIME YOU EXPERIENCE IT, THE LIGHT WILL BE DIFFERENT. IT WAS JUST THE AMBIENT LIGHT COMING THROUGH THE WINDOWS, WHICH CHANGED ACCORDING TO THE CLOUDS IN THE SKY AND THE TIME OF DAY. SO THE PIECE WAS ALWAYS DOING SOMETHING DIFFERENT, AND I LIKED THAT FEELING. CLARK: IN CERTAIN AREAS, THE WAY THIS GLASS AND THE FILMS PLAYED AGAINST EACH OTHER CREATED A VERY KIND OF ATMOSPHERIC, ALMOST MISTY QUALITY IN THE SPACE, AND IN OTHER PLACES, IT CAST VERY CRISP REFLECTIONS, SO YOU MOVED THROUGH DIFFERENT SORT OF TONES OR MOODS WITHIN THE PIECE, AND THAT WAS ASTONISHING. BELL: MY 45-YEAR-OLD DAUGHTER WROTE THAT WHEN SHE WAS ABOUT 9. HA HA HA! PASHGIAN: I WANTED TO CREATE IN THE LACMA SHOW, FIRST OF ALL, THE RELATION OF THE COLUMNS TO THE HUMAN BODY. I WAS INTERESTED IN WHAT PEOPLE WOULD VISUALLY DISCOVER AS THEY MOVED AROUND THEM BECAUSE AS YOU MOVED AROUND ON ONE SIDE YOU WOULD SEE AN IMAGE AT EYE LEVEL, LET'S SAY, THAT WOULD BEGIN TO DISAPPEAR AND, SO YOUR BRAIN WOULD TELL YOU, "AH. IF I WALK AROUND THIS WAY, IT WILL COME INTO FULL FOCUS," WHEREAS IN FACT IF YOU DID THAT IT WOULD DISAPPEAR ENTIRELY. SO THERE WAS AN INTERESTING FRUSTRATION AND COMPETITION BETWEEN THE EYE AND THE BRAIN AND WHAT ONE OBSERVED. CLARK: WHAT WAS WONDERFUL IN LOOKING AT THESE COLUMNS IS THAT SOME SORTS OF FORMS, AS YOU MOVED AND THE LIGHT HIT THEM A CERTAIN WAY, WOULD EMERGE, AND AS YOU KEPT MOVING, THEY WOULD THEN RECEDE AGAIN, AND IT WAS A LITTLE BIT LIKE THE EXPERIENCE OF SWIMMING IN THE OCEAN, AND FORMS AND PLANTS AND CREATURES AND FISH MAY COME TOWARDS YOU AND THEN RECEDE AGAIN, AND IT WAS A KIND OF NOCTURNAL, OCEANIC EXPERIENCE IN THAT SPACE THAT WAS BOTH DARK AND LUMINOUS AND QUITE MYSTERIOUS. IRWIN: THEORETICALLY, ART HAS SOMETHING TO DO WITH FEELINGS AND EXPERIENCE AND WHAT HAVE YOU, BUT THESE ARE ALL KINDS OF NEW EXPERIENCES. TO BRING IT INTO THE FORE, SUDDENLY IT'S LIKE A NEW MEDIUM. RATHER THAN PAINT AND CANVAS, YOU'VE GOT SOMETHING THAT HAS 3 DIMENSION AND IS FULL OF AMBIGUITY AND FULL OF MYSTERY. THE PIECE ISN'T JUST ONE DIMENSIONAL. IT'S NOT JUST SOME PAINTING ON A WALL. IT ACTUALLY IS SOMETHING THAT ACTS IN THE ROOM, IN A SENSE, HAS A KIND OF REVERBERATION TO IT, VISUAL REVERBERATIONS, SOUND REVERBERATIONS. I MEAN, A WHOLE DIFFERENT KIND OF INFORMATION YOU'RE STARTING TO DEAL WITH. BUT ALL THOSE THINGS ARE GOING ON ALL THE TIME. ARE THEY PART OF THE PIECE? ARE THEY PART OF THE EXPERIENCE? COULD YOU START PLAYING WITH THESE PIECES OF INFORMATION, TACTILE INFORMATION, AUDIO INFORMATION? A LOT OF WHAT YOU'RE DOING, YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW HOW IT'S GOING TO TURN OUT. MOSTLY IT'S FINDING OUT ABOUT IT YOURSELF, YOU KNOW, AND THEN IN A WAY IN THE PROCESS OF DOING THAT, IT HAS SOME KIND OF PRODUCT, AND THE PRODUCT PASSES AS ART, BUT IT MAY OR MAY NOT BE DEPENDING ON HOW YOU DEFINE THE TERM ART. CLARK: ONE OF THE MOST INCREDIBLE WORKS THAT IRWIN HAS MADE IS CALLED "1 DEGREE 2 DEGREE 3 DEGREE 4 DEGREE," AND IT'S INSTALLED AT THE MUSEUM OF CONTEMPORARY ART IN LA JOLLA ON A LOCATION IN A ROOM WITH 3 GLASS WALLS THAT OVERLOOKS A CLIFF AND THE OCEAN, AND THE ROOM IS SO SPECTACULAR THAT ANY ARTIST WHO'S OFFERED THE OPPORTUNITY TO MAKE WORK THERE HAS A HUGE CHALLENGE BECAUSE IT'S HARD TO THINK OF WHAT YOU COULD PUT IN THAT SPACE TO MAKE IT BETTER THAN IT ALREADY IS. SO WHAT IRWIN DID WAS HE ACTUALLY CUT SQUARE APERTURES IN THE WINDOWS OF THE WALLS, AND WHEN A PERSON WALKS INTO THE ROOM, IT'S NOT CLEAR, AT FIRST, WHAT'S HAPPENING. FIRST, THEY'RE PROBABLY STUNNED BY HOW BEAUTIFUL THE SPACE IS AND THE VIEW. THEN THEY SEE THIS KIND OF FLOATING RECTANGULAR SHAPE ON THE WINDOWS, AND THEY THINK IT MIGHT BE SOMETHING ON THE WINDOW, AND THEN ONLY BY KIND OF TAKING A BREATH AND EXPERIENCING THE SPACE DO THEY SMELL THE SALT OF THE OCEAN AND FEEL THE BREEZE AND REALIZE THAT THEY'RE ACTUALLY HOLES IN THE WINDOWS. HE REALIZED THE ONLY WAY TO MAKE THAT ROOM BETTER WAS TO TAKE SOMETHING AWAY, NOT TO PUT SOMETHING INSIDE IT. BELL: I SAW SOME LAMINATED GLASS THAT WAS--THE GLASS ITSELF WAS CLEAR, BUT THE COLOR OF THE GLASS WAS PIGMENTED. I DECIDED TO TRY AND SEE WHAT I COULD DO WITH THAT. IN THE CASE OF THE PIECE THAT WE DID FOR MOCA, I WANTED TO PLAY AROUND WITH RED LIGHT, AND SO WE MADE THE SCULPTURE OUT OF DIFFERENT FLAVORED REDS. IT'S A HOT COLOR, AND IT'S GOT A LOT OF ENERGY TO IT. IN THE CASE OF THE LAMINATE GLASS, THERE'S ALMOST AN INFINITE NUMBER OF REDS THAT ARE AVAILABLE TO WORK WITH. WE HAVEN'T EVEN BEGUN PLAYING WITH MIXING THESE LAMINATE FILMS, SO IT'S ALL FRESH AND NEW, AND RED IS A PERFECT COLOR TO START WITH. SOMETIMES, THE SKY TURNS A RED THAT'S EXACTLY THE SAME AS THE RED OF THE PIECE, AND SO THAT MAKES A WHOLE NOTHER ENVIRONMENT, YOU KNOW, BUT I CAN'T PLAN ANY OF THAT. THAT HAS TO DO WITH HOW MUCH POLLUTION THERE'S IN THE AIR AT SUNDOWN, YOU KNOW. THE PIECE AT MOCA IS TOTALLY DIFFERENT IN THE LATE AFTERNOON THAN IT IS IN THE MORNING, AND SO THAT MEANS EVERY ANGLE THAT YOU VIEW IT IS TOTALLY DIFFERENT, ALSO. CLARK: I THINK EVEN MORE THAN MANY OTHER FORMS OF ART THIS KIND OF LIGHT-BASED WORK NEEDS TO BE EXPERIENCED IN PERSON. THE DIFFICULTY OF PHOTOGRAPHING IT HAS LED SOME ARTISTS TO EVEN REFUSE TO HAVE IT BE REPRODUCED, AT LEAST FOR A WHILE, AND THE DIFFICULTY OF WRITING ABOUT IT IS SOMETHING THAT MANY PEOPLE REMARK UPON. IT IS A VERY SUBJECTIVE EXPERIENCE AND OFTEN A DURATIONAL EXPERIENCE. MUCH OF THIS WORK UNFOLDS FOR YOU THE LONGER YOU CAN SPEND TIME WITH IT. [TRAIN HORN BLOWING] [CROSSING SIGNAL DINGING] IRWIN: MARFA WAS A GREAT SITUATION FOR ME. I MEAN, THAT SOUTHWEST DESERT IS MAGICAL. IT'S REALLY MAGICAL, OR IT'S NOTHING. I MEAN, IT DEPENDS ON WHAT YOU'RE DOING OUT THERE. I TOOK ON AN OLD BUILDING. IT WAS THIS BASE HOSPITAL, SO IT HAD A KIND OF NICE QUALITY ABOUT IT, AND IT ALLOWED ME TO DO SOMETHING THAT WAS LOW-KEY AND ALSO VERY MARFA, YOU KNOW. THE KIND OF STUFF YOU CAN'T DO ANYPLACE ELSE OR WOULDN'T WORK ANYWHERE ELSE. YOU GO THERE AND SPEND TIME GOING AROUND AND AROUND AND AROUND AND RUNNING YOUR HANDS OVER IT, GETTING A FEEL FOR IT. FIND OUT WHAT ITS PROPERTIES ARE OR WHAT'S NICE, WHAT'S INTERESTING. WE'RE NOT SEEKING ANSWERS NOW. WE'RE FINDING, "OOH," WHAT THAT FEELS LIKE, WHAT THAT SOUNDS LIKE, WHAT'S GOING ON THERE, WHAT'S THE QUALITY OF THAT MOMENT? SIMMS: WHAT MARFA HAD WAS THIS RELATIONSHIP TO THE SKY, WHICH WAS UNIQUE, THAT THE SKY AND THE WEATHER AND THE CLOUDS, THE WAY THINGS COME IN REALLY LOW OVER YOUR HEAD AND DRAMATICALLY AND CONSTANTLY, CONSTANTLY CHANGING AND VARYING THEN THAT QUALITY OF LIGHT. THE RUIN OF A BUILDING WHEN HE ENCOUNTERED IT WAS AT ONCE HEARTBREAKING--BECAUSE IT WAS IN THIS TERRIBLE SORT OF STATE--BUT AT THE SAME TIME EXHILARATING BECAUSE IT WAS DOING ALL THIS AMAZING STUFF. ALL THE ROOFS WERE MISSING AND ALSO THE FLOOR, AND ALL THE GLASS WAS MISSING FROM THE WINDOWS, SO YOU JUST HAD THIS KIND OF EMPTY SKELETON IN A WAY THAT WAS OPEN TO THE ELEMENTS. IRWIN: THE QUALITY OF LIGHT WAS THE EVENT OF THE MOMENT, THE EVENT OF THE DAY. NOTHING ELSE IS GOING ON. AFTER YOU SPEND A LITTLE TIME THERE, YOU START SEEING THINGS THAT YOU WOULDN'T HAVE EVEN THOUGHT OF. SO BASICALLY, I BROUGHT AS LITTLE TO IT AS POSSIBLE. ALL I DID WAS ADD ONE ELEMENT, WHICH WAS THE SCRIM MATERIAL, BUT OTHER THAN THAT, I DIDN'T DO ANYTHING. THEIR QUALITY OF THE LIGHT CHANGES ALL DAY, EVERY DAY, ALL YEAR LONG. SIMMS: THE FIRST TIME I WENT AFTER THE PIECE HAD BEEN COMPLETED, I BEGAN TURNING LEFT... AND THAT TOOK ME INTO THE EAST WING, WHICH IS THE DARKER WING. AND THERE'S THAT LONG DOUBLE SCRIM, THE BLACK ONE, ON THAT SIDE. WHAT YOU WIND UP SEEING IN THERE OR FEELING--IT'S MORE THAN SEEING. IT'S A WHOLE KIND OF EMBODIED ENCOUNTER THAT TAKES PLACE. BECAUSE IT WAS THIS DARKER WING, IT STARTED TO FEEL VERY SMOKY TO ME SOMEHOW. AS YOU MOVE DOWN, YOU START TO SEE THESE SUBTLE INTERESTING KINDS OF--I GUESS THIS DIFFRACTION OF LIGHT IN THE SCRIMS, WHICH CREATES THE IMPRESSION OF BLUE AND RED KIND OF APPEARING AND KIND OF LIKE ZAPPING HERE AND THERE, JUST SPARKLING IN THE SCRIM... AND SO BECAUSE EVERYTHING IS STRIPPED DOWN SO MUCH, THESE LITTLE EVENTS MATTER, YOU START TO PAY ATTENTION TO THAT, AND AS YOU MOVE ALONG, YOU'RE LOOKING OUT THE WINDOWS. BECAUSE YOU'RE WALKING AND MOVING, BECAUSE THERE'S ALWAYS A WINDOW SOMEWHERE IN YOUR FIELD OF VISION, THINGS OUTSIDE ARE CHANGING AS YOU MOVE. SO THE MOVEMENT INTO THE BACK, INTO THE SOUTH, NOW YOU TURN AND YOU MOVE THROUGH THESE PORTALS... AND THEN, THERE'S THIS AMAZING, ALMOST BLINDING EXPERIENCE OF LIGHT BECAUSE YOU'RE MOVED TOWARDS THE WHITE SCRIMS, THOSE PORTALS THAT TAKE YOU INTO THAT LIGHT WESTERN WING... WHERE THE STUCCO'S A LITTLE LIGHTER, WHERE THERE'S NO WINDOW TINTING, AND WHERE THERE IS THIS WHITE DOUBLE SCRIM, AND THEN, COMING DOWN THE LIGHT SIDE, ESPECIALLY IF YOU'RE AT SUNSET THERE--BECAUSE THE IDEA IS THAT'S THE DUSK, THAT'S THE SIDE WHICH IS THE SUNSET SIDE--THE PLACE JUST LIGHTS UP. IT'S UNBELIEVABLE. THEN, LET'S SAY, YOU TURN AROUND AND WALK BACK. IT'S NOT AS THOUGH YOU'RE JUST REPEATING YOUR STEPS. IT'S A WHOLE NEW KIND OF UNFOLDING THING WHERE YOU HAVE NEW DISCOVERIES, AND SO THAT'S WHERE YOU GET THAT OPPORTUNITY TO BE THE ARTIST BECAUSE FOR IRWIN THE ART IS NOT WHAT YOU SEE THERE. IT'S WHAT'S HAPPENING, YOU KNOW, IN YOUR EXPERIENCE AS YOU MOVE THROUGH IT, AND YOU GO THIS WAY, AND THEN YOU MOVE BACK THE OTHER WAY. IT'S ALWAYS DIFFERENT, EVEN IF ONLY SUBTLY. SO THAT FOR IRWIN MOVING BACK AND FORTH IN THIS BUILDING IS A CONSTANT FORWARD STEPPING. THERE'S NO POINT IN WHICH YOU'RE REPEATING YOUR STEPS. YOU'RE TAKING FORWARD STEPS ALL THE WAY THROUGH. [TRAIN HORN BLOWING] CLARK: ROBERT IRWIN, LARRY BELL, AND HELEN PASHGIAN ARE STILL WORKING AND, IN FACT, MAKING SOME OF THE MOST AMBITIOUS WORK OF THEIR CAREERS, BUT IT'S ALSO TRUE THAT YOUNGER GENERATIONS OF ARTISTS COMING UP HAVE EMBRACED ASPECTS OF THIS WORK AND MADE IT THEIR OWN. I THINK MAYBE THE MOST PROMINENT EXAMPLE OF THAT IS THE DANISH ARTIST OLAFUR ELIASSON, WHOSE IMMERSIVE LIGHT ENVIRONMENTS HAVE BEEN INCREDIBLY INFLUENTIAL AND POPULAR. HE ACKNOWLEDGES A DIRECT DEBT TO THE ARTISTS WHO WERE MAKING THIS WORK INITIALLY. SIMMS: PEOPLE ARE DISCOVERING HOW AMAZING THIS ART IS, AND THEY'RE SEEING GREAT EXAMPLES OF THIS WORK. IT'S BEING SHOWN NOW IN FAR MORE VISIBLE WAYS THAN HAS BEEN DONE IN THE PAST. ALL OF THESE ARTISTS ARE THE TOP OF THEIR GAME NOW. BELL: THE DEDICATION TO THE WORK PROCESS THAT WE ALL SEEM TO HAVE THAT MEANS WHEN IT'S TIME TO WORK THAT'S WHAT YOU DO, AND, I MEAN, OUT OF ANY DAY'S WORK, HALF OF IT WILL BE JUNK, BUT WHAT YOU LEARNED DURING THAT HALF DAY, THAT'S THE REAL VALUABLE STUFF, AND HOW YOU TAKE THAT TO THE NEXT DAY AND THE NEXT DAY AND THE NEXT DAY AND THE NEXT DAY AND SO ON IS A PART OF THE WORK ETHIC THAT, I THINK, ARTISTS HAVE TO HAVE. PASHGIAN: THIS IS COMPLICATED WORK. IT'S DECEPTIVELY SIMPLE, AND IT TAKES A LONG TIME TO LEARN. PEOPLE ALWAYS SAY, "WELL, DON'T YOU WISH YOU COULD HAVE DONE THIS WORK WHEN YOU WERE 35 OR 25?" TO BE PERFECTLY HONEST, I DIDN'T KNOW ENOUGH THEN. I HAD TO KEEP WORKING AND EXPERIMENTING AND WORKING AND WORKING AND WORKING AND WORKING. IT'S FINALLY FALLING TOGETHER. IRWIN: I MEAN, THE WHOLE THING ABOUT THE LIGHT AND SPACE STUFF WAS THAT IT WASN'T REALLY ABOUT LIGHT AND SPACE. IT'S ABOUT BEING A PERCEIVING BEING. WHAT I DO RIGHT NOW I RESPOND TO SITUATIONS THE WAY I'M RESPONDING TO A QUESTION, AND I TRY TO ALTER HOW YOU PERCEIVE THAT SITUATION. IT'S MUCH MORE OF AN INTUITIVE THING. IT'S SOMETHING VERY NATURAL IN TERMS OF YOUR OWN PHYSICALNESS IN THE WORLD AND CAN BE RELATED TO ON THAT LEVEL. EVERYONE HAS THE CAPABILITY OF UNDERSTANDING IT. IT'S JUST A QUESTION OF WHETHER OR NOT YOU WANT TO, YOU KNOW, GIVE IT A CHANCE IN A WAY. YOU BREAK THE FRAME OF BEING A PAINTER, ALL THE ACCOUTREMENTS OF BEING AN ARTIST, AND YOU TURN IT INTO A GAME ABOUT AN INQUIRY. HOW DO I SEE? WHAT DO I SEE? WHAT DOES IT FEEL LIKE? WHAT DO I DO WITH IT? IN WHAT WAY DO I EMBRACE THIS THING? IS THERE SOMETHING I CAN KNOW AND LEARN FROM THIS? AND THERE IS. SIMMS: I THINK THAT IF ONE CAN THINK OF AN OVERALL LESSON OF THIS ART IT IS THAT THE AESTHETIC HAS THIS VALUE OF OFFERING AN OPPORTUNITY TO SLOW DOWN AND STEP OUTSIDE OF THE SORT OF DAILY PRESSURES, THE PATTERNS OF LIFE THAT WE'RE SURROUNDED WITH. IT'S NOT AN ESCAPE BY ANY MEANS, BUT THAT ART WOULD GIVE US AN OPPORTUNITY TO SUSPEND THAT, MAYBE JUST TEMPORARILY, AND THEN TO ENCOUNTER THE WORLD IN A DIFFERENT WAY. AND SO THE CULTIVATION OF THE IMMERSIVE ENVIRONMENTS, THE IDEA OF RETURNING TO A SENSE OF EMBODIED PERCEPTUAL EXPERIENCE, FINDING THE VALUE IN A SLIGHT DISTINCTION, TO THOSE SHIFTS IN LIGHT, THAT ALL THOSE THINGS ARE MORE IMPORTANT NOW THAN EVER. IRWIN AND LARRY BELL AND HELEN PASHGIAN, ALL OF THEM IN DIFFERENT WAYS HAVE TALKED ABOUT THAT SENSE OF QUALITY OF EXPERIENCE, THE QUALITY OF THAT TIME TO BECOME IMMERSED IN AN AESTHETIC EXPERIENCE, AND THAT IS NOT GOING TO BE EVERYBODY'S DEFINITION OF ART, AND THAT'S FINE, AND THEY'LL BE THE FIRST TO SAY THAT. EVERYBODY HAS A RIGHT TO DEFINE ART AS THEY WANT TO DO IT, BUT I THINK SOMETHING THEY HAVE IN COMMON IS THIS SENSE THAT ART IS A RESPITE OF SOME KIND. ANNOUNCER: THIS PROGRAM WAS MADE POSSIBLE IN PART BY: A GRANT FROM ANNE RAY FOUNDATION, A MARGARET A. CARGILL PHILANTHROPY; THE CITY OF LOS ANGELES DEPARTMENT OF CULTURAL AFFAIRS; THE LOS ANGELES COUNTY DEPARTMENT OF ARTS AND CULTURE; AN AWARD FROM THE NATIONAL ENDOWMENT FOR THE ARTS, ON THE WEB AT ARTS.GOV; AND THE CALIFORNIA ARTS COUNCIL.
