S Jaishankar Says He Views China Not As A Failure But As A Challenge | S Jaishankar Exclusive

[Music] [Music] [Music] hello and welcome it's not often that you have serving foreign ministers writing books on foreign policy uh Dr J Shankar has done this twice over he had the India way and now he has his second book out why bhat matters and I'm here at Neu Park ironically of all places to talk to India's current external affairs minister Dr J Shankar about Indian foreign policy which you are fting as far away from neup Park as is possible so the IR of all places to end up at the Neu Park to talk about why you believe much more in the Patel way than you do in the Neu way well it's a great pleasure uh and I'm very agnostic about parks in which I walk uh uh I'm quite all right with the people with whom I walk uh I think that's more important uh but uh yes it's a great pleasure to be with you so the title of your book is why bhat matters so let me get you to summarize the contents for those who haven't got down to reading it yet in your opinion on on the global high table why does bat matter at the moment I think for a variety of reasons uh and you'll get the full message when you read the book uh uh one we are today uh a much larger economy that's a starting point uh fifth largest economy uh will be the third largest in the next few years the quality the talent of our people uh which is today uh in a sense being you can say being Unleashed being nurtured and put out there which matters more in a uh in a more Tech Centric world so as there is a global workplace as technology becomes more important uh uh you know uh the uh people will matter and I think Indian Talent uh is today beginning to make a difference across the world uh the third is actually in a way uh we are getting our act together uh we are getting our act together in India uh so you can see much greater uh interest in the part of the rest of the world one part of it is of course you know they want to work with us obviously want to interested in the Indian market but the other part is they appreciate the contributions we are making uh you know it can be in very tangible terms uh like during uh during Co where you know we were such a major uh vaccine provider uh to the world to you know 100 countries got their vaccines because of us but it could matter as a voice you know uh the idea of a voice of a global s the fact that we LED uh the the move for African union to become a member of the G20 I use the word b because I do believe that in the last ticket uh there's been a uh Evolution even a transformation of India MH uh we are much more cognizant of our history of our culture of our heritage we are more authentically us uh we are less abashed less defensive uh about what we believe in uh what are our habits our customs so in a way I would say the Indian personality uh is also beginning to be displayed on the world stage and that to my mind uh really uh is is uh it's of course a big point of interest for the world uh but uh it's in that sense an India that is Mahabharat and that comes through quite strongly in your book because you try once again to use different strategems from the Mahabharat and the ram which I see you're trying to do quite consciously because Indian strategic analysts grew up reading say a Maia American General from the second world war even sunzu was quoted uh much more than Mahabharat and Rama and you're trying consciously to change that yes uh I'm trying to change that because it like comes as a package uh if today we say say uh vocal for local yeah if you say uh one district one product you say make an India uh that's in a in a material way uh this uh this bat expressing itself but bhat must also Express itself intellectually you know why must you go searching for an example uh from uh the Greek civilization or Roman history or uh Chinese classics I have nothing against that I mean by all means we should do that uh but when you have uh uh something uh right by your s uh and it isn't just that you have it right by your side you actually uh uh you know it's something which you know everyone you ask anybody in India they will immediately relate to it they'll relate to it much more than as you say they would relate to M Oru so it's a form of communication too that if I give you an analogy uh with which you are you grown up with you know Saga that you know uh instinctively you get it you were on a sabatical of s of after finishing up at the ministry of external Affairs when you wrote your first book and then from there you've got why Bharat matters this is also an opportunity sir for me to look back and reflect on not just your term as foreign minister but on 10 years of the Modi government's foreign policy what do you rate as the number one achievement of foreign policy in these 10 years do you think the kind of ties That Prime Minister Modi has been able to build with the gulf Arab countries would rank as your number one achievement or how would you see it I would actually I could give you a whole list I have given a whole list what's your number one achievement I would say the number one achievement is he has the people of India Today realize that foreign policy matters to them and prime minister modi's government and prime minister personally in many ways I mean what's different about him is you can have a vision he has the ability to take a vision and bring it translated to the ground reality huh we have actually shown people what how a good foreign policy can bring benefits to them that today the price of Petrol in your car is an outcome of foreign policy the fact that in you know you travel abroad you know millions of Indians travel abroad I I can say confidently people travel in a more secure confident manner uh than they did before uh knowing that we have their backs uh that uh you you know uh if you if you look at the last 10 years uh we actually prime minister uh got us to not just create a fund but actually develop it over a period of time uh so more than uh I'd say three lakh 3.2 lakh Indians in various difficult situations have actually drawn on that font you know uh so uh the all you had cases like you know operation ganga in Ukraine I mean there many we just had one a and uh uh in Israel or CI in Sudan so the idea in a globalized world that and we have your back not only at home but we have your back abroad our choices are helping National development uh so today if you look at collaborations of various kinds which are outcomes of foreign policy uh or if you look at uh I I would say best practices even technology or even exports I mean you look exports have grown very significantly in the last 10 years exports mean employment so I would say a foreign policy that makes a difference to the lives of people that to me is one very big change now that change manifests itself in different places you know in the Gulf yes absolutely I would say uh if uh there's one region which has undergone uh uh uh absolute sea change it is actually India's relations with the gulf what do you think of as the one big failure what you would accept as a failure of Indian foreign policy our relations with countries in our immediate neighborhood somehow don't see seem as optimal as they should be for a country of India's size stature and aspiration do you concede that no that China seems to be meddling and while we are trying to weigh in and you know have an Indian area of influence there's a very strong Himalayan shadow that hangs over each of these relations sure look uh if you ask me are there serious problems with China my answer to you would be yes but I would use the word challenge rather than failure I am presented today uh uh uh by a CH China with a different posture uh which clearly must have some calculation or thinking behind it uh there is a uh effort uh in the last 3 years uh to actually uh you know uh uh reflect that posture uh on the line of actual control and I have actually stood up to it so uh I would actually say I've risen to the challenge that today uh I mean in a in a military sense the fact that we have been able to deploy uh so many troops uh for around the year in very hard conditions probably one of the hardest in the world uh in with a posture which DET uh Chinese response uh in fact in many ways itself is an achievement and it's an achievement because among the uh uh efforts of the last decade has been the change in the Border infrastructure you know there was an ERA where uh the thinking was let's not do anything on the Chinese border and that's the best way but they won't come in uh and we don't have to go there now you know that proved uh to be completely wrong that they kept developing their side of the infrastructure and you know would keep putting pressure on the line of actual control so I read with great Fascination your chapter on China and you've got references to raana you've got references to his arrogance his overconfidence Etc and his supposed vulnerabilities and weaknesses what are the vulnerabilities and weaknesses that you see and also uh where do you see the India China relationship go from where we at right now well uh uh as they say all references in my books are coincidences and are for the reader to draw their own reference I am making no onetoone correlation you just interpers them at the right places China and then there's ra any connection you make are in your mind okay I think one of the uh most complicated issues in the in global politics today will be how to the only 2 billion plus societies which both happen to be the among the oldest civilizations of the world uh today are rising how one part of it is how they manage their relationship with the rest of the world and the new equations which come but the other is how do they create an equilibrium because both are rising at a phenomenal pace and I grant you you know the Chinese for for variety of reasons which I've hinted at in my book uh because I think we didn't make the right policy choices in the' 70s ' 80s and but today uh when you know uh you can see a very visible momentum uh in India uh you know tremendous growth and growth with the kind of uh infrastructure change the you know the human resources are transforming I mean a much more inclusive much more all-rounded growth uh I think today how do we create that equilibrium to me that is going to be uh one of the big issues for Indian foreign policy surely for Chinese foreign policy but I think for for world that's the question what's the answer how do you create that equilibrium because despite everything that Prime Minister Modi Tri at the beginning the Chinese have a very different reading of the situation look uh in life everything doesn't go your way you know you make a best effort other people have their calculations could be right could be wrong uh and uh sometimes you are presented with a situation as we were presented now what happened you know in 2020 when the Chinese uh made the move on the Lac the fact was we were in the middle of a covid lockdown I think people in this country still don't fully appreciate for us to move tens of thousands of troops with that rapidity to those mountains in that cold with the covid lockdown was actually a phenomenal Logistics oppression and then to to stay there and to support that so the the fact is uh yes we have a challenge I I don't think anybody is in denial of that challenge how your question how do we deal with the challenge I think by a variety of ways uh one part of it would be uh to uh really build up our own uh deep strengths as I call it uh that you know I I think we must manufacture we must develop Technologies we must build infrastructure and these were neglected even in the era of reform these were neglected I mean you still have people who say uh that you know we are not a manufacturing power uh so uh that's like abdicating you know you're giving up on the race before you even entered it we tend to say you know there's a degree of cult Worship in our country uh and you know everything which was done in 50s and 60s you know n did it so uh that's Indian foreign policy there could not have been any other choice I think as as a provocative piece I want people to think I want it's a debate you know I'm not NE I'm not saying everything n did was wrong uh but I'm saying even at the time when many of these choices were made there were altern natives that were proposed and one of the important debates was on China it was on China starting with day one 1950 when actually Patel has a different sense of China and he cautions n so it's not like you say well you know we all thought that there' be never be a problem and then there was this great betrayal there were very sensible sober people in this country who said look look at the nature of what we are seeing across the Himalayas recognize what it is and one of the issues I have uh from that period is we consciously uh shall I say uh gave up on a set of relationships and options which would have helped us address the problem and today you know as far as I'm concerned uh to me if uh where National Security is uh if National Security is at stake there is nothing that I will not do so uh whereas earlier on for a variety of ideological reasons we ourselves said you know we won't exercise this option we won't take that country's help we will not turn to this country so uh what are we doing your ideology today is getting in the way of uh of uh you know what should be your response whereas today we are much more hard-headed uh about what uh we should do you know the interesting thing even in 1962 I mean imagine sa and bomdila have fallen and neru actually writes to Kennedy saying you know I could have asked you for more help but you know I don't know what really people would have said about it so you still hesitating with the pla advancing into India now that is I think a subject of legitimate debate today uh not because we have to be critical about the past because there are lessons to be learned from here and those lessons by the way came back to haunt us in the quad that when quad happened first time quad happened there was pressure on us we backed off this time around when quad happened we made sure we will not back off so there are lessons from history you know I think the weather is just very conducive for a cup of coffee so we just going to head in and grab you a cup of [Music] coffee [Music] So speaking of Neu you would have seen how you've come under personal attack from a lot of contemporary neuvians like uh Jam rames or pamam who accuse you they acknowledge your intellectual pedigree but accuse you of intellectual dishonesty saying you used to dance around neuvians for Plum postings back in your day you've seen those kind of personal attacks coming your way saying that you're doing a lot just to appease those you serve right now how do you respond to these personal charges Minister it's very difficult to people who themselves danced around that uh people like me passed an exam joined a garment surely it cannot be anybody's case that postings in the government were all done for political reasons I mean for a large part of our careers nobody I mean uh I assume nobody in politics really knew who we people were so I think uh this uh is in a way to be expected at least from some of these people I'm I'm being uh I'm being questioning uh and to my mind Nations grow by being questioning I mean 10 years from now 20 years from now I think it'll be to me perfectly legitimate somebody will question this era and say maybe you know choices which were made uh by the people who today on government could have been better these were Alternatives I I think that's really how uh polities evolve uh let us worship that Ira nothing could have gone wrong questioning it is somehow heresy of some kind you know this you have now elevated foreign policy to some kind of theology for me uh what were the early choices on Pakistan what was our early reading of China what was our early approach to the United States three very important relation relationships which are still crucial today okay now I'm making the point even at that time there were people who put forward certain alternatives I'm not by the way I'm not even saying saying who's right and who's wrong but I think people of this era should know that there were Alternatives because what what has happened is due to this kind of uh worshiping attitude we all brought up to believe you know Indian foreign policy was some kind of great wisdom that was the only thing you know it unfolded there could have been no other choice than the ones we did if he didn't succeed somewhere the world was at fault we were never at fault you know we didn't misread China they betrayed us I mean there a whole cover up narrative in many ways I I have no problem if somebody tells me by the way uh what you said about uh n or not be n could be somebody else we disagree your what you are saying on this point is wrong okay counter me factually you know when you start telling people who have uh you know been been part of a system that as though you know you there was some uh great doing out of favors I mean there's a certain amount of self-conviction here huh as though they were doing out postings I I think most people who have worked in the government would prefer to think that they earn their postings and that we worked for government of India we did not work for a family but those who work for a family apparently still think everybody else worked for a family so I was at the world economic Forum at Davos recently speaking to various foreign policy experts the one critique I heard of India's foreign policy is that some in the west think of this is a form of monkey balancing that we continue to want to further the interest of the Quad countries and at the same time want to be a part of bricks despite the problems that China is throwing at us that ultimately India will have to take a side that the differences with China are too acute for this monkey balancing to continue that they're saying that you're doing this monkey balancing but it can't go on uh look everybody is entitled to their view uh to such questions let uh let me ask a counter question you would have a set of countries who have strong good relations with India so let me ask you a question why do you have relations with Pakistan then why don't you give up your relations with Pakistan or why do you have relations with China do they give up their relationship with China so see this is a kind of a you know i' I've used this word before and I use it again it's a mind game this is to make you limit your options while they maximize their options in the past you know often India constricted its own options though we came under pressure we did not do what should have been done in our national self-defense today I think we are much more uh real politic uh we are much more uh I would say hard-headed about our own interest we are much more confident so if you ask me do you think you can sustain quad and Bricks my answer to you is yes I want to draw you into some of the global issues that are playing out at this moment and I want to start with Russia Ukraine is there a bhat way in that crisis does India have what you think could be a way for Putin to get off the ramp and for this war to end in many ways I think they have to find uh Solutions between themselves uh I was in Moscow in December and one of the issues of course I also heard from Russia was that look uh this is not just a Russia Ukraine issue there are there's a larger issue of Russia's legitimate interest and relationship with the West so you know the the issue today is not like they don't know how to talk they don't know where to meet uh they don't know how to communicate they know all this is is established uh there are uh aspects of it in which we can help and we have tried you know uh whether it was the grain shipments or whether it was the nuclear plant which was in under threat uh you know we we've tried as part of a group of countries in some way or the other to be useful to be relevant we'll keep doing that how concerned are you by the prospects of escalation in the Middle East given the fact that uh now we in the United States attack different targets in Iraq the conflict with Iran possibly escalating how do you view the bhat way in the midst of all that's happening in the Middle East at the moment if you ask me am I concerned about the possibility of escalation I think everybody should be uh because uh the direction of events in the last few weeks uh have not been positive uh we've seen uh this spread to the mar time spere uh we've seen this extend now to uh to other countries some beyond the immediate vicinity so nobody can be sanguin about it for for decades we consciously uh withheld of or I would say uh held back on the relationship with Israel huh oh everybody in this country knows that we did it for domestic political reasons okay and and there's a history there's even a record of there were the earlier debate some of it involved molana aad some of it by the way Patel also had some comments to make on it uh but one change you know when you say the bhat way is the fact that we have today completely normalized our relationship with Israel that the last 10 years I've seen the first time a president of India has visited Israel a prime minister of India has visited Israel uh that assurance that that sense today that we should not be uh uh we should you know our strategy should not uh be at the uh should not be Hostage to vot Banks huh I think that is a big change which has come about but having said that I also want to say that it is by normalizing with Israel and nurturing that relationship it is not that we have pulled back from opposition on Palestine in fact if you look today at the support that we actually give Palestine it is at a much higher level than we've ever given before uh in our history if you look at the projects we have done uh at the uh I think we give three times or four times more uh to the uh un rwa than was given in the past I have no hesitation in telling the Israelis that uh look we do believe a two-state solution is necessary as part of a long-term uh answer to to uh what you fac facing so if you mean today that the bhat way means uh taking a stance which is based on a uh you know emanates from our own internal confidence then addressing the parties with that uh with that position I think yes we're doing it I I don't think uh we've reached the stage where any you know the whole Focus right now is on Gaza and on preventing escalation uh beyond that everybody knows there's a diplomacy which will come uh I think one has to wait for it okay I just want to walk across that side there's some people who seem to be doing what you enjoy quite a bit which is racket Sports so let's see what's going [Music] on so I want to spend a moment on India's relationship with the United States which has been developing significantly over the last several years and especially on your watch but where apparently we've had some break bumps recently one was this talk that President Biden didn't come to the Republic Day uh because they were upset with the way India was trying to bump off alleged khalistani separatists in the United States and that's something that America is upset about some American Senators some American senators and Congressmen have spoken to say that the drones which are being given are conditional to India acting on the ner case and on the panu case uh one of the reasons why uh the visits which were expected to happen uh in January didn't happen we were trying to also we were trying to get a quad meeting yes and quad meeting obviously needed three other parties to come together the Americans essentially told us that you know a lot of it is a scheduling issue you look at the relationship I think the relationship today is really solid I mean uh you see prime minister's June visit uh and and even now I mean we continue uh to consult regularly on a whole host of issues uh the Drone issue look the Americans have a very unique process of decision making uh they have separation of powers uh I don't think any other country has no major country has anything similar so they have to do their own internal negotiations and approvals Etc if I not party to a discussion and it's somebody else's internal discussion I think it's more sensible of me to leave it to them to handle but as far as I am concerned what we are intending to procure from the United States is is a defense decision uh in the case of Canada I think uh there is a recognition today that a lot of this has to do with Canadian politics uh that you know uh you know that they have a long record of interfering in Indian politics uh I think we've been uh fairly upfront about it which is that uh uh we believe uh today that uh uh there are uh criminal organizations which are transnational which are involved in a whole series of activities and whatever allegedly happened in this case is to our mind you know something to do with all of that and so uh I mean not only do they need to investigate it which they are but we also need to investigate it which we are issue for us uh uh I mean there is a difference in that sense between uh what happened in the US and what happened in in Canada uh I think uh uh the we we didn't see the uh Americans trying to score political points or uh frankly play to a kind of a vot bank uh on the contrary we felt that they handled it very very sensibly so 2024 is the year of Elections half the world's population goes to the poll 60 countries plus the biggest question in global Affairs at this moment is what happens if Donald Trump becomes president of the United States again does that impact your prism going past November do you think India's on those few countries where it doesn't really matter whether President Biden comes back or Donald Trump does where the world is concerned uh obviously it matters who is the leader of the most uh powerful and important country in the world uh the fact that there would be debates about it to me is very natural but where India is concerned there are I think two aspects to it uh one a structural aspect which is today we have grown the relationship in so many different areas and so many different facets it's not just between you know uh uh between political leaders there's a business angle there's a service angle there's a civil society angle there's a tech angle so so you put it all together I think the relationship is very very strong and uh that allows us to approach it with a certain degree of confidence uh if you look at the way we have in a diplomatically uh you know we've actually had uh very different presidents uh in the last two and a half decades Clinton George W bush Obama Trump Biden um and we've been able to uh we've been able to actually uh each one has become uh in a sense a stronger uh contributor uh I think you have to give credit also uh in a sense to Indian diplomacy and to Indian political leadership and I make that as a nonpartisan point I mean during this period we've had multiple leaders as well uh we have been quite Adept uh at at uh uh you know uh responding to changes in America at forging new relationships at building relationships so I have a confidence that uh you know the both the structural and the Diplomatic um uh is something which which uh should should leave us in a good position sir on Maldives could we have handled this important country in our neighborhood differently we now have a president who's very pro-china Bently anti-india wanting the Indian military and whatever little deployment we have out how concerned are you about how the India males equation is playing up every country has its politics in Democratic politics you have uh you have contrasting positions we have to accept that all our neighbors will have their own politics and uh those politics Will Lead them to take positions and it's a reality given how uh large we are and how prominent we are in their lives that often we will be the subject of their politics I I think there's no running away from that now the issue of uh how we are handling it I would say you know uh this has tended to become more angular uh for a variety of reasons including uh you know social media uh controversies the current government uh in Maldives uh seems to have some discomfort uh with our uh uniformed people operating medac systems uh two helicopters and an aircraft which are there actually for the benefit of the people some aspect of it troubles you please level with us and uh we'd be happy to look at it because at the end of the day you know this is you rightly said it's a very important relationship neighborly relationships are neither of us want to blow this out of uh all proportion if you look at these systems you know these are obviously you're talking to helicopters and aircraft here uh you need competent people uh we uh have uh we had a uh team from mives over uh for two days we have an understanding that uh uh you know uh they value the operations of this we would like obviously this to continue as an expression of our friendship to the maldivian people so we have to find the technically competent Personnel uh who can operate it civilians as well maybe uh so we we are working on you know but they have to be technically competent I mean they should be authorized to fly uh and obviously because the source of uh the equipment is military the military has to have that uh confidence in them I think there are solutions we are uh working on those Solutions we said yesterday uh that we will so I I really think over a period of time this should not be an issue between us I I think the rest of the relationship uh is strong we have the many other things happening and uh I hope that the focus shifts there rather than drags on unnecessarily on this particular issue Min J Shanker I know that you like racket Sports at the Delhi Jim KH I've seen you play a mean game of squash can I get your Indulgence and get you to hit a few shots across the ping pong table oh not bad I see you got a mean serve going you used to play Dr J quite a lot of squash I still do you get a chance to do anything else apart from foreign policy nowadays Dr J Shankar I do a lot of domestic policy now your competitive side is also coming [Music] up not bad Dr J Shankar you went from partially interested half amused to being quite competitive very quickly the inner self is difficult to control beyond the point I I want to talk at the end of this interview about Pakistan you know when I was interviewing UPA ministers in uh the old days Pakistan would usually be the first question interestingly it's the last right now and that's also how you've de hyphenated India and Pakistan but there's a big election happening and we're seeing the key players talk about rosma about possible peace do you think if in the future say another NAD Sharif were to come back to Power and if Prime Minister Modi were to come back to power for a third time in India that might be an ideal opportunity for our two countries to find some common ground and move forward I think it's not as simple as that uh uh you are aware that where Prime Minister Modi is concerned from the first oath taking in 2014 he wanted good relations with Pakistan willing to make that effort to to get them to understand not just with Pakistan with all the neighbors okay that's why we have the neighborhood first policy it's a it's a decade now uh has been that uh you can say the terror industry or infrastructure call it what you will uh they have not really let up on India in a significant way uh yes after URI and balakot we've we've uh seen them uh uh more uh circumspect but the fact is the really the bottom line today for us with Pakistan is really the issue of terrorism there's no getting away from it and one of our problems with Pakistan has been I mean if you look at it it started on day one I mean when when Akbar Khan uh really uh as a serving general of the Pakistani army organized and pushed Raiders and then this said oh we got nothing to do with this and one of the reasons it has dogged us for so long is we ourselves have not been um sort of uh we have not acknowledged its uh centrality uh in the past you you cannot carry on with uh crossb terrorism and say well I'd like good relations in in all other spheres uh to my mind you know again I make this as a non-political point I I think you know most of this country was uh actually uh very angry after after 2611 I mean people felt that look we should have done something today uh uh you can see the resolve where uh government of India is is concerned that resolve has been expressed in different ways so we have to hope that there is a fundamental rethink on this issue so till they address the issue of terrorism whether n Sharif comes to power or something it's isue which can solve overnight you know intractable issues take time I accept that but we need to see that issue addressed and lastly Dr J Shanker you know the prime minister is speaking about a wxit bhat by 2047 that's in various uh aspects of national development on the issue of foreign policy in 2047 what where do you see India on the global head table I interviewed the W president B BR and he said that the next 15 20 years could be about the G3 India the United States and China is that your aspiration as well or do you think let's not just get carried away so soon uh bit of both mhm uh because uh the reality look we will become the third largest economy probably by 28 after that if you see the Goldman sax uh prediction uh you will actually see uh in you know the the graph where India is concerned go up uh very sharply and of course their prediction is by uh 2075 we will be the second largest economy now the fact is that uh uh the weight the weight of the economy is a very important factor in comprehensive National poers so the entire world will take that into account we are people uh we come uh to this you called it uh something else I call it vishwamitra and vishwamitra I'm not just saying it as a state we Indians have this ability to actually get along with people we uh we go to places we adjust to societies we become good contributors there we build up reputations so what has happened is in the world today there is a a feeling about India okay like you know these are these are responsible citizens these are contributing people they are you know no people don't gripe about us as they gripe about some other communities and nationalities so uh to me that acceptability the skill Talent the economic weight the fact that we will be contributing uh much more you can see already today I mean look at our first responder operations look at the development projects we did see what a difference we made during vaccines so you know this uh the India is a sanut mtion huh to to use a ramayan phrase so how how do we uh you know let that play out I I think that's where I see us going and uh you know uh uh I I think uh uh to me that uh vixit bhat will actually be uh really um a major Force to contend with uh in 21st this this idea of using the ramayan and the Mahabharat as a metaphor as a strategy to explain contemporary Affairs I think is also reflective of the new bat that you're trying to build you've explained why bhat matters thank you very much Dr J Shankar for taking time out and joining us as I said in Neu Park to talk about that path that Patel could have taken and the path that Neu took and where We've Ended up because of the choices that we've made and the way forward well thank you it was a great uh pleasure and uh uh I think uh the message of the book uh I'm sure uh is uh as powerful if not more uh then they been you great thank you thank you so [Music] much

Channel: India Today

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Id: f3NKTrstCrM

Length: 44min 8sec (2648 seconds)

Published: Mon Feb 05 2024