POSTS, BUT THEN ALSO FOR DONALD TRUMP TO RECEIVE A WARNING FROM THE COURT THAT IF HE WERE TO VIOLATE THE GAG ORDER AGAIN, THAT HE COULD POTENTIALLY BE PUT INTO JAIL DURING THE COURSE OF THESE PROCEEDINGS. >> SO, CHUCK, VAUGHN WENT THROUGH SOME OF THE ALLEGED VIOLATIONS, THE COMMENTS HE MADE ABOUT COHEN YESTERDAY, THE SOCIAL MEDIA POSTS THAT JESSE WATERS, QUOTE, THE FOX NEWS HOST WHO SAID THAT SOME OF THE JURORS WERE POTENTIALLY LIBERAL ACTIVISTS WHO WANTED TO GET ON THE JURY, ARE THESE OBVIOUS GAG ORDER VIOLATIONS TO YOU? >> I THINK SO. BUT LET ME ADD SOME CONTEXT TO THAT. I THINK THIS IS HARDER THAN PEOPLE MIGHT IMAGINE. SO GAG ORDERS ARE UNUSUAL. THEY'RE ATYPICAL. YOU DON'T SEE THEM IN THE ORDINARY CASE. SO VIOLATIONS OF GAG ORDERS ARE MORE UNUSUAL. AND IN THIS CONTEXT, ANA, A GAG ORDER IMPOSED ON SOMEBODY RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT IS UNIQUE, IT IS UNPRECEDENTED. I THINK HE HAS VIOLATED IT. THAT'S MY SENSE OF IT. HE WAS TOLD NOT TO COMMENT ON WITNESSES AND HE'S BEEN COMMENTING ON WITNESSES. I ACTUALLY THINK OF THE QUESTIONS IN FRONT OF THE JUDGE, THAT'S PROBABLY THE EASIER ONE. THE HARDER ONE IS WHAT DO YOU DO ABOUT IT. SO, IF A JUDGE ISSUES AN ORDER, IT IS BECAUSE HE OR SHE WANTS IT FOLLOWED. IT HASN'T BEEN. BUT IT IS HARD TO IMAGINE PUTTING MR. TRUMP IN JAIL AT LEAST IN THE FIRST INSTANCE, RIGHT, WHILE HE'S RUNNING A CAMPAIGN FOR PRESIDENT. DO YOU GIVE HIM A TONGUE LASHING? DO YOU FINE HIM? DO YOU TELL HIM DON'T EVER, EVER DO THIS AGAIN? I'M REALLY SERIOUS, DOUBLE SECRET PROBATION SERIOUS. WHAT A JUDGE OUGHT TO DO IN THIS SITUATION DOESN'T COME WITH A MANUAL. AND I DO THINK HE HAS TO FASHION SOME REMEDY BECAUSE I DO THINK MR. TRUMP IS FLOUTING HIS ORDER, BUT HOW YOU DO THAT, AND, BY THE WAY, WHETHER OR NOT THAT WORKS -- >> THAT'S ANOTHER QUESTION. >> -- IS HARD. >> WE KNOW TRUMP HAS BEEN FACED WITH GAG ORDERS BEFORE. PARTIAL GAG ORDERS, WE SAW IT IN THE CIVIL FRAUD TRIAL. HE WAS FINED FOR VIOLATING IN THAT CASE. BUT, DANNY, TRUMP'S LAWYER ARGUES HERE IN HIS POSTS ON SOCIAL MEDIA THAT THEY HAVE BEEN POINTING TO, PROSECUTORS POINTED TO, THEY DO NOT ESTABLISH ANY WILLFUL VIOLATIONS IN PART BECAUSE THEY ARGUE PEOPLE LIKE MICHAEL COHEN HAVE BEEN TARGETING TRUMP AND HAVE BEEN PUBLICLY SPEAKING OUT AGAINST HIM IN RECENT DAYS AS WELL. >> YEAH, THE ARGUMENT THERE IS ESSENTIALLY SOMEONE ELSE IS TALKING ABOUT ME, I SHOULD BE ABLE TO DEFEND MYSELF. WHICH YOU COULD SAY, WELL, YOU COULD JUST NOT RESPOND, THAT'S AN OPTION TOO. BUT AT THE SAME TIME, PROBABLY TRUMP'S STRONGEST ARGUMENT IS THAT HE SHOULD BE ABLE TO RESPOND, THIS IS NOT HAPPENING IN A VACUUM, SOMEONE LIKE MICHAEL COHEN MAY BE SAYING THINGS ABOUT HIM, HE FEELS LIKE A RESPONSE IS NECESSARY. THE OTHER ARGUMENT HE MIGHT MAKE IS THAT, LOOK, AS A CANDIDATE FOR THE PRESIDENCY, HE IS ENGAGING IN POLITICAL SPEECH, WHICH IS IF YOU CAN SAY MORE CHERISH THAN REGULAR SPEECH PROBABLY IS. IT IS ONE OF THE MOST SAFEGUARDED KINDS OF SPEECH. WILL THAT ARGUMENT WIN THE DAY? I'M NOT SURE. THIS IS A CASE WHERE YOU CAN PUT THE TWEETS, THE POSTINGS BEFORE THE JUDGE AND ASK THE JUDGE DOES THIS VIOLATE THE GAG ORDER? AND I THINK THE MOST PROBLEMATIC PART IS IF DONALD TRUMP TOOK WHAT JESSE WATERS SAID, AND EVEN CHANGED IT A LITTLE BIT. BECAUSE THAT IS VIEWED AS PUTTING HIS OWN SPIN ON IT, AND HE MAY HAVE CHANGED THE WORDING A LITTLE BIT. THAT'S GOING TO BE VERY PROBLEMATIC FOR TRUMP IN ARGUING THAT, HEY, I WAS JUST POSTING WHAT OTHER PEOPLE WERE SAYING, WHICH DOES, LOOK, WE'RE IN A NEW ERA, IT RAISES THE QUESTION, DOES A REPOST COUNT AS SPEECH? AND IN MANY CONTEXTS IT DOES. MANY TIMES WE POST THINGS TO SAY LOOK HOW SILLY THIS IS. IT IS NOT OUR OWN SPEECH. HOWEVER, IF YOU'RE POSTING SOMETHING AN ANCHOR SAYS AND ADDING YOUR OWN WORDS TO IT, OR ANYTHING, THEN IT IS PROBABLY YOUR OWN CREATION. NOW WE'RE GETTING INTO COPY RIGHT LAW. BUT, REALLY, IT IS A QUESTION OF DID HE VIOLATE THE GAG ORDER? AND LEANING TOWARD YES, THE JUDGE WILL START OUT WITH LOW LEVEL PENALTIES BECAUSE WE'RE AT THE FIRST RUNG OF THIS LADDER. AT THE END OF THE LADDER IS INCARCERATION. >> WE'RE STILL IN THE PROCESS OF COURT PROCEEDING WHERE THE PROSECUTOR IS GOING THROUGH EACH OF THE VIOLATIONS AS THEY SEE IT, AND MAKING THEIR ARGUMENTS BEFORE THE JUDGE CONROY WHO IS REPRESENTING THE PROSECUTION SAYING, QUOTE, HE KNOWS WHAT HE'S NOT ALLOWED TO DO AND HE DOES IT ANYWAY. HE SAYS WHATEVER HE NEEDS TO SAY TO GET THE RESULTS HE WANTS. DO YOU THINK THERE IS EVIDENCE OF THAT, KRISTEN? >> SURE. ABSOLUTELY. YOU KNOW, WHEN TRUMP MAKES THESE STATEMENTS AND THEN HE REPOSTS AS DANNY POINTED OUT, HE IS DIRECTLY TALKING TO POTENTIAL JURORS, AND I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS THAT IS KEY HERE WHEN HE TALKS ABOUT MICHAEL COHEN, HE KNOWS THAT THIS JURY IS NOT SEQUESTERED. HE KNOWS THAT THE JURY COULD POTENTIALLY, NOT NECESSARILY, EVEN THOUGH THEY HAVE RESTRICTIONS ON THEM AS TO WHETHER OR NOT THEY CAN LOOK AT SOCIAL MEDIA, LOOK AT THE NEWS AND THINGS LIKE THAT, THERE AREN'T ANY RESTRICTIONS ON THEIR FAMILY MEMBERS AND THE PEOPLE THEY GO HOME TO AT NIGHT WHO MAY SAY SOMETHING AND SAY, HEY, LOOK, I SAW IN THE NEWS THIS, OR, HEY, I DON'T KNOW IF YOU'RE ON THE JURY, I MIGHT SAY ARE YOU SEEING THE PROCEEDINGS? THEY'RE NOT SEQUESTERED IN TERMS OF WHETHER OR NOT THEY WILL STILL HAVE ACCESS TO THIS MATERIAL. BY POSTING THAT INFORMATION, YOU DO RUN THE RISK OF, AND, AGAIN THIS IS THE INTENT OF A GAG ORDER, RUINING THE INTEGRITY OF THE TRIAL PROCEEDINGS. AND SO WHEN HE POSTS THAT, I DO THINK THERE IS AN INTENT TO INTERFERE WITH THE INTEGRITY OF THE CRIMINAL PROCEEDING. >> WHAT DO YOU SEE IS WORSE? COMMENTS ABOUT WITNESSES OR POTENTIAL INFLUENCES ON THE JURY BY COMMENTING ABOUT THEM BEING LIBERAL ACTIVISTS? >> I THINK BOTH, RIGHT? THE JURORS ARE JUST MEMBERS OF THE PUBLIC, TRYING TO FULFILL THEIR CIVIC DUTY. YOU HAVE ONE JUROR WHO SAID, LISTEN, I KNOW I WAS SELECTED, BUT I DON'T WANT TO BE PART OF THIS ANYMORE, AND I'M WORRIED ABOUT THE SAFETY OF MYSELF AS WELL AS THE SAFETY OF MY LOVED ONES. WHEN YOU HAVE THOSE TYPES OF THINGS, BOTH AFFECTING THE JURORS AS WELL AS THE WITNESSES, IT BECOMES LESS ABOUT SELF-AND ALSO ABOUT PERSONAL SAFETY. YOU SAW THIS WITH THE JUDGE'S DAUGHTER ALSO WAS PERSONALLY ATTACKED. SO, I THINK THAT BOTH OF THEM ARE EQUALLY DETRIMENTAL TO THE CASE BECAUSE, AGAIN, IT COULD CAUSE WITNESSES TO NOT WANT TO BE PART OF THE PROCEEDING, WHICH WOULD ATTACK HOW A PROSECUTOR IS ABLE TO PUT ON THEIR CASE. BUT THEN ALSO IT ALSO AFFECTS HOW MANY JURORS ARE WILLING TO FULFILL THEIR CIVIC DUTY. I KNOW WE HAVE 12 AND SIX ALTERNATES, BUT THOSE ALTERNATES CAN COME TO ZERO AT SOME POINT. >> WE'LL SEE. AND SO FAR, THAT HASN'T HAPPENED. WE HAVEN'T LOST ANY JURORS AT THIS POINT SINCE THEY WERE SEATED. AND THIS OPENING STATEMENT GOT UNDER WAY YESTERDAY. SO, DANNY, WE TALKED ABOUT THE POTENTIAL PUNISHMENT HERE, A THOUSAND DOLLAR FINE FOR EACH OF THE VIOLATIONS, THAT'S WHAT THE PROSECUTION IS ASKING FOR, AND THEY SAID, PLEASE GIVE HIM A WARNING, IF HE WERE TO CONTINUE TO VIOLATE THE GAG ORDER, HE COULD FACE TIME BEHIND BARS. DOES THE FINE MAKE SENSE TO YOU? >> WHAT THE PROSECUTORS ARE DOING IS STARTING AT SQUARE ONE. THEY KNOW THAT THIS -- THEY'RE GOING TO BE BACK BEFORE THE COURT ON ANOTHER GAG ORDER VIOLATION HEARING. THINK ABOUT IT, LAST WEEK THE JUDGE SET THIS FOR A WEEK OUT, AND A LOT OF FOLKS SAID, WELL, WHY NOT DEAL WITH IT NOW? YOU COULD HAVE A GAG ORDER VIOLATION HEARING EVERY DAY ON THE MORNING BEFORE JURY TRIAL STARTS BECAUSE IT IS AN ONGOING THING. LOOK AT THE WISDOM NOW IN SETTING THIS HEARING A WEEK AWAY, BECAUSE NOW YOU CAN ROLL TOGETHER ALL THE OTHER VIOLATIONS THAT HAVE HAPPENED SINCE. INCLUDING JUST IN THE LAST DAY OR SO. SO THIS MAY BE A PERIODIC THING. THEY KNOW THEY'LL PROBABLY BE BACK HERE ON ANOTHER POTENTIAL GAG ORDER VIOLATION AND STARTING AT ONE. STARTING AT THE LOWEST AMOUNT. DONALD TRUMP DOESN'T CARE ABOUT A THOUSAND DOLLARS. BUT NEXT TIME THEY'RE BEFORE THE COURT, THEY CAN SAY, JUDGE, WE TRIED A FINE, THAT DIDN'T WORK, WE WANT MORE. THEY'LL GET MORE. AND EVENTUALLY AND UNFORTUNATELY ALL ROADS IN CONTEMPT LAND LEAD TO JAIL. JAIL IS THE FINAL PUNISHMENT. THE PROSECUTION NOW IS JUST LAYING A BASELINE, LAYING A FLOOR. >> QUICKLY, IF YOU WILL, CHUCK, DO YOU SEE IT COMING TO TIME BEHIND BARS? >> HARD TO IMAGINE. BUT DANNY IS RIGHT. IF YOU CAN'T ABIDE BY AN ORDER, AND FINES DON'T WORK AND THE TONGUE LASHING DOESN'T WORK, WHAT WORKS. >> IF THIS PERSON WEREN'T DONALD TRUMP, HOW WOULD HE BE TREATED? >> AGAIN, GAG ORDERS ARE UNUSUAL, VIOLATIONS ARE UNUSUAL. SO, THERE IS NOT A LOT OF DATA. NOT A LOT OF SORT OF POINTS OF COMPARISON. BUT I CAN TELL YOU
