Rosaria Butterfield | Understanding and Loving Our Gay and Lesbian Friends

I'm going to invite you into a conversation on the relationship between homosexuality and Christian faith hi I'm mark Mellinger from the Gospel Coalition and joining me to walk us through this is Rosaria Butterfield author of secret thoughts of an unlikely convert it's really good to have you here thank you for setting aside the time thank you thank you a lot that we can get to in this interview and let's start here in your previous life as a lesbian you said that you largely experience born-again Christians as ungracious people almost fanatical in temperament largely I didn't say entirely but but that was largely your experience let me ask that was quite a while ago more than 15 years ago do you think that's changing now well that's a hard question because it says a lot about point of view but I was a professor at the time and my experience with Christians was that for the most part they were fearful people they used the Bible as a punctuation mark to end a conversation rather than deepen it and if I had any questions thus saith the Lord ended the question and so I'm not I didn't understand if they obeyed such a holy and great God why they were motivated so by so much fear so you know that context there was that sort of snippet in the other context that I really interface with Christians with or gay pride marches and let's face it the raising of political placards is not always the friendliest of exchanges so you know I would see the placard with the I'm going to hell and then a friend of mine put together a placard that says you know if if AIDS is God's curse on homosexuals and lesbians must be God's chosen people you know so let's just face it but it's just that is probably not the best opportunity for dialogue so it truly wasn't until I met Ken Smith as a friend and as a neighbor master of the RP Church and see our hands where you are professor that's right that that some of those some of the external difficulties that I think are always there in interfacing with people who just simply think differently than we do those are put aside okay is so you're saying that's always gonna be that there's always probably gonna be a segment about evangelicalism there's like that you may not have been getting the whole picture absolutely and I think the other challenge is and right now we are we can really feel the pressure because we are in a crisis we're in a moral crisis we're in a civil crisis and Christians are losing that's just how it is oh that's just out it and and one of the things we can do is acknowledge the fact that when Christians are losing socially and politically we actually do better we do better in what sense uh we pray more and we're humbled and we do not make moral proclamations in place of gospel invitations now one of the big challenges that we will always have is and it's just a simple rule and in fact I'm sure you have noticed this that this Lord's Day when you go to church if you said everything that was on your heart about everyone in the church how would that go for you it would go or so pastor's wife I really would I'm drug it kicked out of the church right maybe out of the study exactly because you know and I know that the strength of your words needs to match the strength and the integrity of your relationship mm well that's true for unbelievers too you don't presume that you're gay and lesbian neighbors of the worsen in their life is sexuality maybe the worst sin is unbelief in fact it is unbelief as we know it is a higher sin so try how can you possibly have strong words without strong relationships and how can you possibly have strong relationships without taking the risk of being rejected see there's a personal risk if you want to put the hand of the loss into the hand of the Savior you actually have to get close enough to get hurt and that's going that's a new idea for many Christians but it's the it's the ground rules of the new game well and I think that the reason for a lot of Christians that that is a difficult thing to think about is because you know if it is a gay and lesbian co-worker or neighbor there's probably going to come a point in that relationship where even if it starts out friendly and I'm totally on good terms there's going to come a point where they're gonna know how you feel about their lifestyle have you how do you suggest Christians navigate that moment that part of a relation well that part of the relationship is true for any unbelieving neighbor yes yes you're right first of all I don't that doesn't really register on the Richter scale for me so that's part that is the but the other real issue it is a deeply held identity it is it's it and and it has a political lobbying block which makes it even harder yes so the one thing though that you want to do always with your unbelieving neighbors is to try to figure out what the gospel bridge is you know it might not be through the rebuking of sexual sin you know I don't yeah yeah you don't need to go there well you might need to go there but not necessarily what if you are neighbors too you know what if you're a lesbian neighbors who have been an ikemen and you know marriage for 50 years have separate bedrooms and haven't had sex in 2000 sexuality and they'll be the first to tell you that your menopause is coming god yeah right so so let's be clear on what the sin is you know the Lord is very specific when when the Lord can fix us of sin it's not on the surface and you know God forbid if when we repent of us of sin all we do is deal with the surface so why don't you find out what's going on and find out what those some of the real deep issues because you know homosexuality is a root of something else yeah I remember you submitting yet but you said a homosexuality is is symptomatic it's not it all okay so not know what's going on you mean and and why that is so important to understand well because if all you do is repent of a sin at its surface it would be like you and I going out in the garden and we see all of these dandelions and we're gonna solve the problem by snipping the tops off you know that doesn't work the fact it makes it worse yeah what it does is it makes it worse and I think so often we are asking people to repent of a a fruit sin and not going to its root and Romans 1 tells us what the root of homosexuality is and and and I you know I felt like my experience I read I really resonated with Romans want the fruit of homosexuality is the ethical outlooking of a heart and a mind and an identity that rejects the idea that God is author and that the implication of that that the Bible has the right to interrogate my life not be able to play around so really whatever sexuality is it's an ethical outworking of original sin and you know what that means we're born that way we're all born that way it's common to everybody and any sexual sin is really a manifestation of that absolutely and so I don't think of we should not think about our gay and lesbian neighbors as some as something something that as a struggling with something that is different it is not different for the human community as part of the human we all reject God and want to be in control of our own lives you're saying that's what's really going on here that's what's really going on now it gets complex in this new world revisionist theology the six scripture passages that condemn homosexuality are really true God didn't mean that every week week we are the challenges we are dealing with a weak gospel presentation over the course of decades combined with silly sinner's prayer that have falsely allowed people to think that they are Christians because there's a video of them singing you know this little light of my life you know in their church choir and really the the need to share the real gospel it's urgent both with and without the church so when someone says to me I'm a Christian and I'm gay I often I don't have to ask you why you think you're gay because you know I get it but I do have to ask you why you think you're a Christian what I mean I don't okay we are friends enough that I can slow your Peter that you and I can get there because friends want to know those things can someone self identify as gay and be a Christian someone can identify as someone who is struggling with same-sex attraction uh-huh you will see and some people will call those will identify that as gay Christians that's what they will call themselves you have a problem with that I have a big problem with that you do have a big problem I'll tell you why okay I'm an English professor oh we didn't I guess we can't we can't diagram a sentence back out gay is it happen if it's an adjective Christian is a noun at the job when add subtitle modifier is actually to change the noun and modify so you say you're a gay Christian you know what you're doing you're putting on the wrong team jersey it's a paradox can't work me out on the field and your play and confusing everybody you may be a Christian who struggles with same-sex attraction you may be a Christian who struggles with any manner sin but as soon as you embrace an adjective we'll modifier and claim that is your identity you are not identifying fully with Christ and here is what you are saying you say you're a gay Christian you're saying holy spirit don't touch me there that's off-limits that's my identity so now I do think I have strong opinions I do and that's fine that's why is one reason you're an interesting interview I'm making an impact in my my workshop yes it here at the Gospel Coalition Women's Conference where we're doing this interview a few more things that I want to that I want to get to and I'm going a little longer with you than I am on many of the other abuse because people really want to hear from you you you do believe sexual orientation can change this has been sort of a politically controversial issue you honestly believed yes it can you've seen it happen I've seen and I've seen having what much more with women than with men I will just say that but I do not believe that sexual orientation plane a changes are a gospel imperative is why that doesn't have to change if you're a lawyer for saying reparative haircut reparative therapy is a heresy it's heresy of a prosperity gospel you know one of the things that's hard for American Christians especially is that on this earth God will give some people ten to bear in another person one and I think part of the prosperity gospel in you know is to say no commit your life to Jesus says not at all but the gospel promises is that if God gives you off heavy cross to bear the Lord Himself will uphold the heavier part but God forbid Christians weigh on that cross and I think that when we when we look at orientation change as proof of gospel fruits we're actually weighing on that cost lettin the Lord work in the life of that person that person is a precious son or daughter to the Lord Himself there is a vital role Christian's in our families in our churches and in our world you described your conversion as as bittersweet is is that something first of all you see first of all you never hear conversion described that way it's it's not the Christian way to do it you should know that um but you know I thought that was really interesting it I think anybody who has been on this earth and comes to Christ as an adult needs to be prepared for that it seems what they're not right to tell you yes I think that's right and I'm just trying to be honest and you can pray for me I mean you know look I was all out there you could pray for me but the gay lesbian community is a real community and you know what the Christian Church has a lot to learn not about theology not about salvation not about the war what about standing with the disempowered beneath suffering and being good company for the suffering now I I came of age in the gay community when aids had just unleashed itself and we didn't know what it was and that is hard that is a very hard thing but one of the things that is true and it is just universally true the disempowered is an S I often speak to parents who feel like they have lost covenantal children to the gay community and what I will say to them is you will have to work very hard to love your son and daughter better than the gay community I'm sorry to say that I know that shocking I know that scandalous but it's just how it is not over - I am Telling You that you will have to work very hard because we have and I think it's in part because of our real lat a real understanding with church membership means and a lack of understanding that the church is not a man-made institution it's a God made institution we are so shaky on these things that we have made it you know the resonating effect of that is that we tend to the very fractured communities instead of an integrated loving one that can embrace people who are you are lost and who are scared and you know what Aviva that how long Christensen tattoo is the worst part of that same-sex attraction they give you they pretty much if you ask anybody it's actually hot the sex I rough you know it's the loneliness and of growing old alone and if you look at our churches and you say wow the only people who are not alone on Christmas and Mother's Day and our people who are in marriages that gives a terrible example of what the church is supposed to be if the church is available and alive and present and a community by invitation only see that's not a community that's not a community so we've got so I suppose what I want to say is probably a lot of that is my sin if I'm so bittersweet about this but I long for a real Christian caso so with gay marriage becoming the norm rapidly in this country is does is it more of a moment of great opportunity for the church or is it more of a moment of great peril well it had better be a moment of great opportunity because today is the day the Lord has made let us rejoice and be glad in it yeah you know the Lord is determining your circumstances and your circumstances do not determine whether you're going to get up and do something but we need to share the gospel and we need to stop adding to the gospel and what I mean by that is we need to share the gospel of hope in Jesus not rants about anal sex for example you know I mean you know I'll tell you for the most folks in the lesbian community have some opinions about it too so it's not just good bible-believing christians have some issues but but that can be very distracting that can be very distracting we have sadly decided to take you know you know hopeful punches take attacks from the you know from behind the walls instead of really coming up beside our friends and our neighbors and I'm a reformed Christian I believe that God's elect people are everywhere including the gay and lesbian community so of course of course this is the opportunity God gave us I was I was even praying with someone recently who thanked God for these time I was quite rebuked by his prayer because I have not been doing that just that you know but I think that's the right prayer I think let me end it right here you described your past as an r-rated past you're certainly not the only parent out there who has an r-rated passing it doesn't have to be homosexuality there there are plenty of us who have had affairs or were promiscuous when we were younger let me ask you how do first of all do you have to talk about that r-rated past at some point with your kids and if so how is that an important enough part of your story that you must share with your entry you know I think that marriages are very precious things and so in your marriage you need to discuss how you will talk to your children in our household it has always been open we read through the Bible as a family and as we come up to certain passages why there I am you know I am Rahab the harlot that there was never a day when we sat down with our children and they said okay something very serious to tell you you know your mother was an atheist and a lesbian and you were adopted okay okay never talked to me in Canada it's all I mean right you know we're all messy people so so my my children they were raised cutting their teeth on this conversation it seems to me that it is important to talk to children in a way that is that is appropriate to their you know to their situation but if you don't talk to them someone else will you see Christians are called to be good stewards of ideas and if you just say well I'm just going to wait this out you are neglecting a responsibility of of the covenants because if you don't stored is why someone else with and then it becomes hard for your children you know why are my lesbian neighbors and the nicest people on the ball well you know God's come in grace is something that you need to teach them about and if all you do is is is you know stuff it under should either stuff it under or simply rehash the old ghost stories and so what your kids going to say well but they're nice to me you know they're genuinely kind when the dog got loose they returned the dog they maybe brownies on my birthday you know God's common grace is not something to to fear but that's not that's not the full story because there are only two things that I returned the Word of God and the souls of people and we need to get to the business of majoring on those majors a wonderful note on which to end this interview Rosaria Butterfield thank you so much thank you

Channel: The Gospel Coalition

Views: 61,910

Keywords: the gospel coalition, the gospel, gospel, coalition, pastors, pastor, minister, ministry, Christ, Christian, Christianity, church, churches, faith, reformed, reformation, bible, biblical, evangelical, Jesus, God, spiritual, spirit, Holy Spirit, preacher, preaching, teaching, Rosaria Butterfield, Lesbian (Website Category), Homosexuality (Quotation Subject)

Id: xVF3KzuCKVI

Length: 19min 54sec (1194 seconds)

Published: Wed Jul 01 2015