Ronan Farrow on Lies, Power and Predators

[Music] better late than never good evening and welcome to a sellout crowd tonight at the theater I'm David walmsley I'm the chair of the Canadian journalism foundation and the editor of The Globe and Mail and it's a distinct privilege to welcome all of you on this cold evening and the Global Mail supports this event because it is topic that really is about brave journalism and it's about the challenges and the obstacles that get put in the way of journalists trying to do their job to provide scrutiny of powerful people but also to educate the audience as a whole on topics that sometimes don't get the same level of attention that they deserve tonight and indeed the entire year of cjf talks wouldn't be possible without our long-standing sponsors the Financial Group they're dedicated and passionate for our cause and they have worked incredibly hard consistently through the years to allow us to bring this caliber of guests to Toronto we're also joined this evening by high school students already working on their school newspapers inspiring the next generation is really what it is all about for the cjf and for me as well as the editor at the globe and I want to thank in particular the sponsors of the aspiring journalists program TD Bank Group for making that possible and also our in-kind sponsor again of long-standing scission in the audience if you're keen you're into Twitter you can hashtag cjf talk and allow the conversation to go far beyond these walls because this is a topic that needs to be heard far beyond what the newsrooms see and what those in the audience are particularly interested in hearing and it's my pride to say that I work with one of the two people you're gonna spend this evening with Robin Doolittle investigative journalist to me and an author to us all has just finished her second book and obviously you saw it on the way in had it coming what's fair in the age of me - Robin spends her time intelligently thinking about the big issues and in this book and on this topic what she's looking at is the issue of consent not just the headline cases but the bigger picture the whole area of justice and justice often doesn't get before the courts so it is with particular pride that I welcome Robin to the stage where she will whole conversation with our very special guest Robin Doolittle [Applause] hello everyone mics are working perfect great Ronan Farrow he's a Pulitzer Prize winner he's a contributing writer for The New Yorker he's one of gqueues men of the year graduated from Yale Law School he's a Rhodes Scholar he helped break one of the biggest stories of the last century and he's here with us tonight to discuss his incredible new book catch and kill lies spies and a conspiracy to protect predators Ronan Farrow thank you what what an introduction that's a lot to live up to GQ Man of the Year so you didn't cause trouble at Pearson Airport this time oh god I forgot about that the wonderful very polite Canadian customs officials detained me last time because I couldn't explain the Canadian journalism foundation and what what I was doing here and why and why the truth matters the truth I'm here for the truth they're like are you above the amount that you're supposed to declare like yes I'm full of the truth that was al inside joke for those of you who are at Part 1 yeah that's pretty nice crap that's for the repeat attendees oh do we have some reason oh my god you came back for more Robin and Ronan and hit the road together Robin and Ronan's big adventure well I'm super excited because last time you were working on this book and there's some restrictions around what we could talk about because you were still working on this and now it's all out there also I was very tired because I wasn't sleeping because I was over deadlines and and now I'm very tired because I'm past deadline and I have to talk about it all the time very seen talking about you missing deadlines all this did you do that too that's just now we're not talking about music okay so let's just dive in here because there's so much to talk about so Harvey Weinstein what a lot to talk about that does he show up and had it coming as well you know what it does actually yeah they're nice companions from what I hear I need to read had it coming I how many people have read had it coming yep okay we need doing like reach that hand pal I am going to read I am gonna make her sign me a copy I didn't I was very Canadian want to like bring my book and be like here's my book well I am very American and I just hustle everywhere I go so I need a signed copy okay Harvey Weinstein you guys stood up this started you were working at NBC News and this started you pitched a series the dark side of Hollywood and evening this is where this came about can you walk me through where you what when you first started hearing that Harvey Weinstein is an alleged predator well that's not Journal yes well I can walk you through like the first act of the plot but then you have to buy the book and then you have to listen to the podcast to get the rest of the block always be thank you exactly so I had pitched this series as you said and very rapidly a story about the casting couch and the general phenomenon of sort of transactional sex in the entertainment industry became a story about Harvey Weinstein because Rose McGowan went on camera accusing him of rape and I got all these documents from employees and the company showing that they had complained about harassment and I got this recording early on of Harvey Weinstein confessing to multiple assaults during a police sting operation so it was pretty clear early on that I had to buckle up for a big story and then rapidly also clear that the dark side of Hollywood was so dark that also my parent company which was a movie studio that owned my television network did not want to run the story that was so great about the book is it's not just a look at Harvey Weinstein and unpacking your incredible piece of investigative journalism it's really looking at all the different power structures that enabled this alleged misconduct to continue and it starts you know from the DA's office and goes through to the media as well as Hollywood and a kind of our whole culture in general and I'm wondering if you can talk about that first step at the DA's office because that was a really astounding to me you got this incredible audio tape tell me about learning about what happened when Harvey Weinstein actually was did come under the scrutiny of the law so the story of how I got the tape and how the tape was made is the subject of next week's podcast episode this week is at NBC it should all go listen it's free come on why not I need I need the men she's on my Twitter I mean the ratings on the apathy next week is the story of amber Gutierrez it was an Italian model who in 2015 was groped by Harvey Weinstein and did everything right she went straight out and told everyone and went into the police and told them and one of the officers said oh not again she's already a grand baby guy never a good sign and she performed this really high wire act where she was terrified to go back to him but did so wearing a wire even though if he grabbed her again he would discover she was wearing a wire and he was very physically intimidating to her she was a kid I mean she was in I think 22 yeah I can't imagine at 22 putting myself at risk in that way and she really did it because she is a very sophisticated grounded person who has a really strong sense of ethics and she wanted it to not happen to anyone else and also there was a language barrier her English wasn't great I mean she is such a an impressive person and I can't wait for people to hear her in her own words tell her story this is the idea of this podcast that either as an entry point if you're on the fence about getting the book or if you've read the book and want more you can do these deep dives where you spend a half hour or an hour with one of these people I will say to the podcast today the released on the NBC's yes I want to talk about but it did have the audio of Gutierrez and it was very yeah powerful to hear her voice it's one thing to read it but to actually see her saying like I don't want to be here I want to go back downstairs I'm not drinking I don't drink alcohol and why did you grab my breath like that was very powerful to hear how come why had her voice wasn't how booming and frankly scary his was yes and I think I mean there's multiple layers to it one is it sort of shocked the American media cycle because it was so palpable that she was frightened and he was as overbearing as he wasn't not taking no for an answer and this the sense of danger sort of wafts off that recording but then also when you hear her episode of the podcast in here or talk about the story it's very clear that she's in acting in the clip that she really is playing the fool and he is not willing to consider the possibility just it's so clear that it never enters his mind that she is running circles around him and entrapping him it is very cool I mean that is the light motif of her story that she's this you know Italian pageant contestant lingerie model she's shame she's blacklisted like she gets all the blowback but she is always in control she is so sophisticated about in snaring him and ultimately it is a winding plot with a lot of twists but she finds a way to evade his efforts to destroy this recording and get it to me and it's only because of sources who are that tenacious that we find out the truth about anything but she did this did go to the district attorney's office yes she's a good journalist she brings it back so part of the amber Gutierrez story is that after that operation and after the creation of this recording the police are like we have him we have him admitting on tape and suddenly all of these smear items start appearing in the press and the DA starts coming up with all of this suppose a dirt about her past there she had earlier been in the pincers of Silvio Berlusconi and his whole corrupt system of like trying to party bunga bunga parties trying to traffic these models and beauty pageants and her involvement was only that she was brought she says you know under professional pretenses to one of these parties realized what was happening and then got her friends out of there but she got smeared as a prostitute and a bunch of other things in the Italian press because she agreed to testify against Berlusconi so she she is a person who basically from the very beginning of adulthood was trying to hold powerful people accountable and getting all this blowback and all this garbage about her from the Italian press suddenly is being handed to the district attorney's office and when they bring her in to question her they're not asking her about the confession of guilt she's extracted they're asking her about her sexual history back in Italy and she's like why what is going on here and I was ultimately able to piece together what was going on which is there is a revolving door of people who leave the district attorney's office and then they need to make a living so they go to a private investigation firm in this case it was a firm called k2 which was founded by Jules Kroll who's a big name in private intelligence and basically if you are wealthy and connected enough you can buy the services of one of these firms staffed by these former members of the DA's office who will call their buddies at the current DA's office and say this lady is a hooker you shouldn't trust her so it's you know a combination of good old-fashioned no equity no equality different tools for the haves and the have-nots and plenty of slut-shaming and the charges went away it was terrifying about that and then you had this idea and that District Attorney by the way is still the Manhattan district attorney Cyrus Vance jr. perfect yeah perfect that's great so you had this recording it is very explosive it's buttressed by interviews you've been doing with with people who've worked with Weinstein you know who've seen you know impropriety or experienced it and you take it to NBC News your bosses you're very excited you're like we've got it let's let's roll symbol we as journalists I've studied Americans America they do this that's what we do in America well that what happened is narrated in the words of the producers sat in the room watched in you've a podcast yeah have been member guys okay I don't know if I've mentioned this everyone take a moment take out your phone just down over the body sign up you bring this free bring this material it like it's laughable reading this that they wouldn't have have because it's crazy yeah it's not only I mean this gets out the power structures right so we've knocked at the DEA we go to the justice system gone now we're going to the media this is you know where we see me too that we think this is the next line of defense yeah media we go to the media you bring concrete reporting to your bosses that you've been greenlit to go get and what happens they stop it it's the long and short of it they have a very strange reaction the president of NBC News kind of listens and the blood drains from his face and he's like this isn't news you know some producer grabbing a lady isn't news maybe it's a tabloid story it's not an NBC story and then it was oh but there's some anonymous sources in this story there were always multiple named women and it's just very clear that any journalistic decision would have resulted in them running it but while this was all happening it turns out I was able to document in the end and lay out the transcripts and so forth they were having at least fifteen secret calls with Harvey Weinstein Bay being the top three executives at NBC News and MSNBC they were promising him that they were gonna kill the story before I was told they were gonna kill the story ultimately they got rid of me over it when I refused to take this order to stop they were telling us to cancel interviews they kind of they tried to do this catch-22 of well that's not news and it's not quite enough and then we'd say great here's another woman with an allegation of rape who will go on camera and they'd you need to cancel that interview oh my god you can't get the information you've been told nam yeah but you need more information to pursue but you're not allowed to go out and get the information that you need right so understandably this has been something about them scandal in the state's yeah especially because I mean NBC News after your work in The New Yorker want a Pulitzer right I mean I took the same stuff they sent away and a few weeks later the orbiter didn't have it right it's very awkward situation for you because you were still hoping to work there at some point yes that is that runs through the book that I sincerely I mean this is one of several moments where I had to really be kind of honest and vulnerable of my about myself if you've ever been in a situation where you felt ethically compromised in your job it takes a while for you to come around to oh I actually can't work here anymore and I had been so buffeted by wanting desperately to get the story on air there getting fired for not acquiescing to this order to stop and then having them come back to try to damage control and say like will bring you back will bring you back just don't talk about what happened and I really wanted to go back I really wanted to make it work and Tom Brokaw was calling me and saying yeah yeah the Tom thing is sad but you know I I was tempted I'm very honest in the book about saying I was just a guy who wanted my job back and M was uncertain about my future and people like rich McHugh this NBC producer that we referred to who is the subject of today's podcast episode [Music] drinks yeah can you guys take a shot every time really made it hard for me to be as cowardly as I might otherwise have been because he was as brave as he was and ultimately lost his job and became a whistleblower about this because the women in the story were as brave as they were I mean you talk about sort of the journalistic frustration which I think any reporter would understand but think of the frustration of amber Gutierrez we were just talking about who literally for years had been trying all of these systems like she went to the cops she got a confession and then it went away and she suffered and he did not and then she goes to the media and risks everything he's he's gonna wipe her out if he finds out that he's she's given me this evidence she signed a nondisclosure agreement another light motif in these cases I'm sure there's also figures in I had it coming yeah oh yeah how'd it come in something say something nice but had to come in but had it come yet riveting Reid I assume yeah I love Robbie's reporting so that is sincere but you know she signed a million-dollar non-disclosure agreement if she was terrified and then I can't imagine what it's like to go through all these layers of trying different ways to achieve justice and maybe protect people and again hearing actually it's not gonna run on NBC can you please stick with this as I try again somewhere else and thank God she and these other women did it was interesting reading catching Co I also read she said it the New York Times version and I remember when these stories broke broke within days of each other and thinking and hearing Jody Cantor speak afterwards about their reporting and struggles they encountered feeling kind of sorry for the New York Times they were saying you know like our hardest thing was how do you get quite a cultural on the phone and then with with you because of you know you are a celebrity in your own right you grew up in Hollywood I was like oh well I mean that would probably be easier for Ronan and then I read your book and I just felt so sad for you and it was this really amazing I mean as a journalist to just I was Rimi throughout the book so many times like you were you know you were putting on Harvey Weinstein and you think that that's your the person that you're going after but your biggest adversary was your boss yeah like that you have you know you may have been able to get these famous people on the phone but your bosses were never gonna run it and let you kind of spin your wheels forever I just threw out the book what is so great about it is you kind of have these because it's a piece of writing that's what's great about it it's actually like a crime thriller and through there's these recurring characters throughout you have Dylan your sister that you call to and speak about her experience making an allegation and seeking counsel from her advice from her sometimes it seemed like you needed to call and kind of get yelled at a little by her just to keep you going and then you have this like mysterious like Matt Lauer in the background of The Today Show you're like going in to talk about Matt Lauer about the investigation and he doesn't seem so interested in it I have some taste in mentors in this book and as you leave he pushes a mysterious button that swings the door shut I mean can you talk to me a little bit not to get too nerdy here but the writing like did you plan yeah no I mean I the book involved a tremendous amount of planning so it it was a challenge unlike anything else I've ever done before because there was a first order challenge okay this has to be an explosive and meticulously fact-checked and legal piece of investigative reporting so like i'm gonna have to make all the enemies in the media world i'm just gonna have to burn all the bridges and i'm gonna have to to tell this story because I knew it would intersect with all of these different powerful interests make sure that every sentence is bulletproof so I hired one of the senior fact checkers at The New Yorker and ran it through the same process that my New Yorker articles go through where every single word gets scrutinized by multiple parties and we go to the people involved and say okay does this accord with your memory of events everything was backed by so many layers of documents otherwise it didn't go in the book I really like geared up for combat so that's the reporting side and then I took months and months first of all in just an outline process so I I constructed a Bible which was like a thousand pages long of everything that happened in the two-year timeframe of the plot and the plot extended up to a couple of months ago you know I think the late spring of this year so I didn't know what the ending was gonna be necessarily it's always challenging very challenging but I kind of knew where it was heading so I was I'm simultaneously keeping these balls in the air of ongoing reporting fact-checking existing reporting and then assembling this chronology of every communication that happened on a given day every event that happened that was relevant to the different characters in the plot and then I had this next daunting challenge of after I had the Bible of the universe of everything that happened in reality okay what do I pull out of that how do i bridge that into a plot and as I got into that outlining phase I read a ton of books about structure and articles about structure and you know I read all the screenplay writing books like save the cat it's one of the big ones you guys know save the cats we have any struggling screenwriters here you know what that is okay so save the cat is basically it's there are all these different theories of plot and what resonates with people emotionally and there's Joseph Campbell's hero's journey and they all kind of our versions of saying the same thing which is we like a plot that has a central character who changes in some way over the course of the plot and we like some ups and some downs and some unexpected reversals and there are different ways of articulating when those twists and reversals should be so I read you know the Joseph Campbell's stuff to save the cat stuff which is called save the cap by the way because I get out of here in the first act the the stereotypical version of the moment is your character your protagonist does something that is unrelated to the main plot but establishes that this is the protagonist we like this guy like he saves a cat a tree or whatever okay I don't actually have a save the cat moment I don't think any character doesn't catch and kill but I did look at okay what is the is there a three-act structure that works for this pretty early on I made the decision that I was gonna do very very short chapters they're only like 10 pages long I think that end on cliffhanger is each time so that there's always some incentive to roll over into the next chapter I then after I had kind of done an outline that I felt was dramatically satisfying and that is no small challenge because remember it's not fiction I can't move around the parts they have to be accurate and in order and they can't be deceptive either any time I'm flashing forward or giving you information as a narrator that I didn't have at the time in the plot I have to kind of be transparent and honest with the reader because it's investigative but it's fun it's like you're reading it because we know how it ends and like you're going into Matt Lauer's office to like ask him for advice and you're like no Ronin it's a trap at Lisa bloom yeah and like when you called Lisa bloom you're like loose the bloom can I trust you and you're like no wrong and you're like I do trust because she helped yeah there's a lot of betrayals in this book and there there really is do you have trust issues that's a serious question when you read it and you'll see like all of the people that you're going to I can't imagine The Globe and Mail screwing me that way like that would be devastating can I imagine the globe they would never I feel like Canadians wouldn't have it in them to do this kind of a cover-up okay would you guys are tooks and we've got plants but do you actually like a serious question going forward in your life do you feel like this has changed you in some way yeah I mean she is she's being very good about spoilers but by the third act of this book like you've got people with false identities contacting me and like all the good guys have become bad guys and there's like a sexual blackmail subplot there's there's a lot going on and I definitely have profound trust issues and as soon as I'm done with all of this reporting Robin I'm gonna get some good therapy yeah work through that but I'm not done talking about craft and structured you keep going through bad one more of that or is that boring should we move on yeah okay cuz I never get to talk about this side of it the the outlining process involved reading a ton of like Agatha Christie every kind of era yeah I mean just to understand okay while the events have to be accurately narrated I need to make creative choices at every turn as to how much context I'm giving readers and the earliest versions of the book were completely I guess the term is diegetic like the plot is only unspooling to the extent that I know about it at the time and I think then that was to novelistic there was too much opacity there was too much like who are these Russian guys running around who do they work for so I did a little more pulling back and signposting and saying okay here's some context that Ronin in the book doesn't know at the time but striking that balance was a series of tough choices and they were informed by reading all of these detective novels which are very much about what clues are you giving the reader ahead of time which of the clues feel like ominous foreshadowing where the reader is kind of in on it which of them are things that you're not going to figure out until later and and then for the final phase which was the actual writing after I felt like I really had a puzzle box of a plot where I was revealing the right things at the right time and the character arcs all ran through in a satisfying way I read a lot of just prose voices that I liked I read a lot of kind of the post modernist a lot of David Foster Wallace and Franzen and Cynthia osek if anyone knows her work Margaret Atwood we were just nerding out about Atwood I read I read all of the Oryx and Crake trilogy and I reread Handmaid's Tale and I read that one that she did before the Testaments which I think is considered kind of a lesser work but it's Margaret Atwood she's always happiness just trying to internalize voices that I thought were vibrant and unexpected and would be cool influences to have kicking around it was very obvious you worked hard thank you thank you it's well I mean two points one is as you maybe picking up on this was also an elaborate procrastination scheme it's meanwhile by the way like my like publisher is calling and freaking out and my sources are called like there are actual lives that's I mean I can get the craft as good as possible but also there are sources who are coming forward with life-altering things for the first time and they're calling like hi is it gonna be next month like what's happening my whole life is wrapped up in this and this raises a serious my last point on this I promise there I was interested to see how the kind of craft side of it would be received I knew it was a choice and it was an unexpected choice I think people expected a kind of a straight repertory oh look and it's not that it's it's more dramatic there's more scene setting you know it does it in a way that I hope honors the reporting and the facts and is it is completely truthful because we ran it through the wringer in that way I just described but it does have a lot of craft and structure to it and I was bracing for kind of criticism of that that never happened and I'm really grateful people seem to get it there was a I want to say slate or salon op-ed about this we're basically the writers thesis was and I obviously selfishly was grateful for this was what what a brilliant thing that he's taken this investigative reporting and packaged it in this kind of cotton candy despite thriller format where it will get to a wider audience than it otherwise would have and vegetables a little bit and I think we do a version of that in any format I mean if you are a good investigative reporter even in a newspaper it's a little bit straighter and has let less color and emotion than in a book with the kind of narrative arc that I'm talking about but you're still engaged in fundamentally the same act which is creatively synthesizing real life into a version that people can consume and that hopefully will be compelling enough that it expands their horizons and their understanding of the issue you're reporting on in some way so I think that there are different extents of it but whether you are writing a nuts-and-bolts investigative story for a newspaper or the book version of that that's a little more dramatic or like the screenplay of that that is totally drama tie it's it's all different versions of the same act and we understand reality through stories there's just no way around it and I think not to come back I'm really like transfixed by this NBC problem it was just so crazy me too there's a scene in the book when by now you've been fired by NBC and you are now working with The New Yorker to get this out and you know the New York Times is closing in on you and you're sitting in a cab and you're crying yeah and talking to your boyfriend yeah now fiancee yeah and thank you another little nugget there enjoy the book it's covered it's really cute and you're in the cabin you're crying and you're going through that moment that I can just so you're like I'm glad it's because you don't cuz if the New York Times story is exactly what your story is then it's over yeah I didn't know what they had everything you risked your whole career NBC gave you a million outs like to stop putting on this we're gonna like you will be a star here if you just drop this and you kept going with it and you lost your job and the New York Times is coming out and if their story totally takes everything you've got then it's you get nothing for it no look I'm glad you know that it's coming out for the for the survivors and but you you know you're talking like you know a small part of you is also like damn and I'm like you don't have like that is awful that's devastating can you take me there that moment in this cabin you know then your time story is coming out soon and it's raining maybe I added in the rain but there's a lot of rain in Kachin I felt like it was rain there's you know the earlier draft that I described that was longer and more novelistic actually had more rain in it I you can put that out as a separate podcast the if this was like a JK rowling like the know that thousand page world yes yes totally came back to the caviar in the cat unexcavated Edition all of the rain fact-checked - like that rain really happened and it just felt like a to me to have real-life rain that I didn't use for a dramatic scene setting epic yes and then of course like reporters read the early drafts and they're like there is so much rain why are you always recording in a rainstorm does a rain cloud just follow you around I'm like that it rained on those days I have pictures in the rain like it doesn't matter if it's true cuts of the game David Remnick was one of the people who god bless him read like I think a 600 page version of catch and kill and David run next to the editor of The New Yorker very brave guy and was the guy who ultimately got the story over the finish line so he's kind of a heroic character in it and he just did not get the spy novel of it all even slightly he he's such a brilliant journalist he was like no this is the first that's glad we broke ground here yeah we this is a scoop for Robin Doolittle the cat so the cab scene was one of the cat one of the many I can't remember who's just overcast but it certainly it was an overcast moment in my narrative and you know it's a it's another one of those moments where I felt like I had to be self-aware and self-deprecating and just go all the way in terms of describing my own pettiness and I felt for you yeah I mean it's it's tricky because obviously what I went through is much less traumatic than what any of my sources went through but I part of the plot in the book is me deciding to write the book and that involved a realization partly kind of goaded by good journalists who kept grilling me about this in the press that the story of what journalists go through and I profile a bunch of them in the book is important to and that the free flow of information in our society is is really important to upholding our basic rights and when our most storied media outlets interrupt the free flow of information at the pass to powerful interests you rapidly descend into a kind of police state agitprop environment and there's a great character in the book who is involved in this international espionage operation is one of the guys chasing me around who grew up in the final word this is equal what task one everybody Wow she knows sewed one she knows he grew up in the final days of the Soviet Union in what is now Ukraine and experienced like a true police state oligarchs controlling the media kind of environment and is very conscious of that as he is assigned to hound journalists and secretly ferret out their sources and intimidate them and he has such an interesting arc over the course of this book where he starts to develop ethical compunctions about this cuz he's an immigrant and he believes in the Free Press like that's part of what makes America great to him and he feels like it's under attack and he's a part of the attack it's fascinating it was totally fascinating you're getting it so the spy side of this book you have these shadowy figures you're always feeling followed around before we get to that you men other journalists yes other journalists had tried to crack this story before and it never got there they didn't get the people or there were these elements these shadowy figures kind of turning up as they were doing their work mysterious tips or people off it can you tell me about and you phoned them which I thought was yes awesome it's such a like it's funny in print I don't know if we would have have you ever done that I don't know I don't think so that was really interesting to me as a print journalist reading you as a broadcast journalist yeah and how you approach things differently but I don't get side rekt my question cuz but I do want to talk about that which one do I go about god well the fellow journalists point is while you while you meditate on what your next question is fascinating and and will be actually an episode of anyway kind of kinda let in today sizzling interview for the podcast so so there there are these journalists who circled the stories over the year the story over the years and ran up against various obstacles weren't able to get people on the record and I you're making me reflect on a point that I've has actually never occurred to me before which is maybe it is my background in broadcast news that has created this odd facet of now several of my stories where like I just pick up the phone and calls fellow journalists and one of the themes in the plot is there's this incredible kind of surprising generosity that these other reporters show and they're like oh please I couldn't do it but if you can succeed do it and here's all my notes and here's sources who came close maybe you can convince them to talk where I couldn't and they had no reason to do that and God bless each and every one of them there's Ben Wallace who was also target of the espionage stuff New York magazine writer Ken Aletta a New Yorker writer who helps ultimately bring the reporting to the New Yorker Kim masters there's these great reporters who show up again again in the plot and they're incredibly supportive and you're absolutely right I probably sound like a weirdo just calling random reporters when I'm on a news story saying like hey did you know anything about this and it's I truly don't intend to step on anyone's toes like obviously if someone is in the process of breaking the story themselves I get it if they say like I'm on this and no I'm not gonna just add my sources over to you I might say the same thing but I also try to remind myself for when I get a call like that I was helped so much by people sharing but no I mean like in terms of the broader goal of journalism and not like it's just not one news outlet fighting the other one to the death it just occurred to me like oh my god like that was brilliant and especially these are these this isn't someone trying like a year before this is years and years before and they were dealing with some of the tactics that Weinstein yes eventually employed on you so let's go there let's talk spice like you were feeling like you were being followed mm-hmm and you were being followed I was being followed again the therapy bills yeah yes I need to get some recommendation yeah yeah I I mean I don't want to spoil all of it but they used some pretty underhanded tactics there's some kind of high tech high jinks where they're trying to track my phone location there's a lot of cat and mouse stuff where they're following me around New York and you know ultimately I'm able to unravel who's following me why they're following me get the contracts that have documented the whole operation but there's multiple crazy layers to it so there were these subcontractors we're kind of this like boris and Natasha they're like Russian accented two two guys who are funny characters and then there was also the sort of more sophisticated operation of the people who hired them which was this Israeli firm black cube and they specialized in various forms of deception they sent out these secret agents using false identities to insinuate themselves into the lives of sources and reporters and one of them becomes best friends with Rose McGowan this woman Diana Philip who's a wealth manager in London who was passionate about women's rights none of that is true she's a trained actress with an Israeli military background working for black cube and secretly recording Rose McGowan and sending those recordings back to her rapist which is like a classic thing you don't do to your best friend yeah that's a good tip you can take to the bank yeah don't assume a false identity a Gaslight a rape victim yes I mean going through this and having guys follow you what is with Igor who suddenly has this like I almost didn't believe it like he has a crisis of conscience about the press but he risked he has risked so much and he's put his name on it yeah I was tailing you has put his name to this gone public and said yeah he was asked by you know is that contracted by black yeah to do this he's kind of doing his own detective work over the course of the plot trying to figure out who the client is who he's being hired by why reporters are getting followed and this is I mean the again the strength of the book is looking at the systems that are keeping these people in in power so if I can switch to another one one thing that was interesting the first time we spoke we were talking about your book war on peace and when I remember it was reading more on peace there's a section where you're talking about that I've interviewed every living Secretary of State and you know Hillary Clinton was a tough sell she didn't want to do this which I thought was odd because you worked for the State Department and you know her yeah like and she wasn't interested in talking to you and I thought that was very odd and then you were reading this book like Oh you were calling her trying to get an interview about wine yeah yeah um which she agreed to and then she found out that I was reporting on Weinstein and I mean I cannot make any assumptions about her state of mind except to lay out the facts which is her people called and said ah we know you're reporting on Harvey Weinstein that is concerning and then suddenly she was very very busy at a time when she was giving interviews to everyone to promote her book to a person that she knows yes to a person that she had already agreed to give an interview to so it's certainly I mean I include that because it felt to me at the time very much like yet another crank of the dial in the direction of me being radioactive I guess I should have gone for a Geiger counter it's a metaphor there you get it I was becoming increasingly not someone that these powerful people wanted to associate with because I was going after their centers of power and support the Hillary Clinton relied on Harvey Weinstein for many years as her big Hollywood bundler it's a big donor a big ally she's described him as a friend and look I Hillary Clinton gets a lot of sexist BS like she gets a lot of groundless attacks but I think that this actually falls into the category of quite legitimate questions where first of all there are now multiple people who have gone on the record saying we tried to warn Hillary Clinton and hurt Lena Dunham has said that she years prior said Harvey Weinstein is a sexual predator why are you using him as a campaign surrogate Tina Brown also said that she warned the campaign and you know Hillary Clinton does manage I know this having worked for her by proxy like part of her whole approach is that she insulates herself by never getting her prints on things directly like is it whispered in her ear or not but honestly who else does that [Laughter] but here's the thing it doesn't matter really because if indeed we are to buy the idea that all these people were warning that her about Harvey Weinstein and it just never got to her like it was one step away from her this whole time that is a massive failure of her system like the book has to stop somewhere and she should have set up her shop in a way where allegations of sexual abuse could get to her ear and I am very sympathetic to the fact that she was placed in a difficult position by these revelations I'm very clear in the book that you know we don't know actually what she says it all but her her folks who raised this with me say it's all a coincidence and it had nothing to do with her and you know she just sincerely got busy at that point but I do think it is it is noteworthy how political allies of Harvey Weinstein's were very slow to come around to the idea that maybe he should be held accountable and she actually in the months after that conversation I had with her calms person where he's like we know you're reporting on Harvey Weinstein and allegations of rape and we're concerned about it she and her team continued to work with him on a potential documentary deal which then by the way intersects with the NBC plot well I'll stop spoiling the book they've already got the book I mean but um the yeah but I want them to read you know it's true you got a good vibe about it yeah it's read about it you gotta tell people this is a podcast if you feel so moved but I think how important is it that Harvey Weinstein had these political relationships these relationships in Hollywood you're I mean Noah Oppenheim yeah that's his mom was in you know had a side kid wanted to be a Hollywood screenwriter yeah and he's like presiding over whether he's gonna take down Harvey Weinstein yeah like how important were those political connections I think in this story staying buried for so long hugely important I mean it's the classic story of power corrupting and you know there's a combination of things going on there's ultimately I uncover all of these secrets that NBC had which were interests in corporate and legal practice and you know I get a paper trail on the things that they were concealing and I'm able to document the way some of those things were held over them so there's a kind of a very specific plot that played out here where people's secrets were leveraged in various ways but then also there is a baseline of attitudes about this issue all these decisions were being made by an all-male chain of command and men with a very particular set of views on women I mean one of the things I on earth is like Noah Oppenheim had all of these misogynistic writings you know wrote articles while he was senior at Harvard saying you know women are asking for it when they get assaulted at frat parties and they love to be pumped full of alcohol and preyed upon it was one of the scream yeah kind of for me too because I had you know this was a friend and a person I respected and a boss and I had no idea that he had these very particular views and I'm very careful not to over bloah that in any way and to say like look these are college-age writings although I certainly was you know pretty fully formed by that final year of college and what's not writing things like that but you know people might change they might evolve but but it's relevant in this case because he didn't change in a ball he's saying the same kinds of things about women and about this issue in the rooms that I'm in where they're making the decisions about the killing of the story so there's the attitudes about women and it just it shows up again and again you know the head of the investigative unit googling pictures of ambra in underwear and kind of going like you know whistling and saying like not bad like there's this it's it's stuff that would be innocuous out of context but you start to realize how much these little things inform the big news judgment decisions and then finally to sort of go back to your point there is this additional layer of just your garden-variety corporate cowardice and when you have big money to media companies with a lot of tendrils in a lot of different worlds including in this case where it's literally a moviemaking company that is making these decisions you very rapidly run into conflicts of interest and people who are sitting in you know Burbank and have a lot of interests not just a news division to worry about saying like what why would we bother doing this huge fight with this movie mogul who probably is never gonna be taken down and is gonna make all sorts of trouble for us and is threatening us you know partly it's also a decision about expedience and nobody thought it was worth the fight do you think NBC didn't want to air your investigation because they were afraid someone was going to someone was going to explode or expose the problems with Matt Lauer well that's what multiple sources say in the book I mean I lay out the reporting very carefully so I'll let that speak for itself one thing I thought was interesting to kind of going back to an earlier point I made about your unique position being someone from a famous family you you write in the book talking about like you know you're very aware that you're a man reporting on issues but you're also someone who has had a loved one come forward and talk about being molested I mean how did that inform your reporting as you were going through these really difficult interviews well there was no direct factual link but it gave me an understanding of the issue and the emotional stakes for these sources that were speaking to me and as you see I kind of used her as a barometer for how to be sensitive in these interactions and so it was hugely significant and here again it was another case where I felt like I had to be honest about myself and that was me I do fidget with my hair sometimes so right mom right I fidget with my hair your mom is here you must be so proud what's your mom's name patty patty hi congratulations you did a great job she's so cool sorry I was yeah was asking something serious though but there is this wonderful moment back this awful moment when you when the investigation is kind of falling apart and you're thinking back to you because you keep kind of coming back to conversations you had with your sister she feeling she wasn't supported enough and letting her down and letting down your sources and again like that's a writing technique that you used I think throughout but I mean can you talk about that a little bit that that must have just been weighing on you the whole time that you're doing this investigation well I don't know how cognizant I was of the that particular link I mean I was so driven and had blinders on and was so embattled that I didn't really have time to philosophize about it until much later and then obviously in the process of unpacking like what what are my motivations as a character in this book I had to think about okay my guilt about my sister and this these conversations I had with my sister and I I do think that it was of some emotional importance to me that I had this evolution that I traced over the course of the book of telling my sister to shut up wanting the problem to go away asking her why it was worth it you know she was going up against this powerful guy and it came back on the whole family every time she did you know why bother and then ultimately realizing that she was doing something really brave and significant and I thought being honest about those foibles of my own would be something people would understand because so often the entire society goes through that just wanting sexual abuse to go away I want to get to be swept under the rug it's like you perfectly said would where I want to go here which is the now what and something that I write a lot about is basically what do we do as we are evolving in this moment and if we realize that someone has done harm what do we do with them how do we acknowledge our own rape myths and stereotypes or you know thinking that yet you're but an evolution of yourself going through Tom Brokaw was a mentor to you in this and he was ultimately accused of sexual misconduct and you write something that I thought was so great you're like because because they were historic yeah allegations and looking at Tom Brokaw but like so is he canceled II didn't seize his words but as he canceled our is he part of I think here's something like a news culture at the time that this was just normal yes and what do we do in those situations and I don't know I'm curious I'm curious your thoughts on this question of what do we do with people who have maybe committed harm in many years ago in a different era I honestly I think that Tom Brokaw's case would have played out in a way that was so much more favorable to him if he hadn't written a letter that I understand but also I think showed a level of a lack of self-reflection to a degree you know he was so incensed and felt this was so unjust that these decades-old claims which were you know not to discount them in any way because they did make young women working for him I think they're really there to where they you know they felt they were made to feel uncomfortable but there was you know by his account never a case where he persisted and I think this is not really disputed by the women either where where he was making physical advances that were unwanted I mean his argument in this sort of enraged letter was like I basically you know slightly more than looked at people the wrong way years and years ago and of course the truth is in between I also talked to one of his accusers in the book the Wester who did a really brave thing talking about the problems in this culture and continues to do a brave thing talking about the problems at NBC you know and for her she I think correctly makes the point like she was a young employee of this company where he was one of the most powerful people and you know he he shouldn't have been in a hotel room with her proposition however gently and that it was significant to her and I think both things can be true that he can feel you know indignation about the fact that the moment has created this situation where his legacy is now tarnished by this and also it can be true that he was a part of a culture that did sincerely make women feel uncomfortable routinely and that did sincerely create impunity around these larger-than-life figures in the news business and that's the way I confronted in the book you know he as with so many of the events and characters in catch and kill it's not cut and dry it's not like he's a mentor and then he turns out to be this dastardly villain and he's working against the story Tom Brokaw is a really complicated character in this because he actually sincerely there's a little bit of there's a moment where he says he's friends with Harvey Weinstein and I don't know if he's gonna work against the story like everyone else seems to who over the course of the spot and he doesn't I mean he really actually he is one of the feeling the one guy he's the one guy who stands up for the story and objects to the executives and is you know sending me messages urging me to keep going and saying that it's the self-inflicted wound that NBC won't run it and you know he's outraged about it as a journalist and does the right thing and yet also had these things in his past and I just I think that for that particular type of allegation that he was dealing with if he had been more self reflective or like run his response letter by a feminist or two or something like a single person run it by a single person like a single person I understand that it was this emotional moment for him but if he hadn't kind of said you know these women are exploiting me and they're up for gain and they're dancing on my grave and that instead said like I think that I honestly think based on my time knowing him he probably sincerely believes which is that culture of impunity is a problem and it's a problem that I was ever a part of it I shouldn't have been in that hotel room with that and I didn't go any farther than you know whatever his version of the facts are but the culture is a problem if he had acknowledged that I think that you know the reaction would have been much more favorable you you right there's a couple of moments in the book that I thought were just so strong where you get into the grey and that's what I'm like really fascinated by in this moment is so much of me too it's like you have to be black or white on so many different issues as we work through this and you write you know I thought one of the strongest parts was speaking about some of Harvey Weinstein's accusers or Matt one of Matt Lauer's accusers not that they have anything to be ashamed of in their past or not but that for example an incident with Matt Lauer that started as what she alleges to be a non-consensual rape she acknowledges she had sex with him afterwards she felt trapped the power imbalance but it's it's messy and it's journalists I think in the past sometimes we've wanted like oh well she doesn't quite fit the bill of exactly what the public's gonna believe so we can't take those stories on and that really seems to me is something that's changed which is great writing about that and doing your reporting like how much did you have to I guess figure out how to put all of that out there it was trusting people to understand complicated fact patterns and I really get frustrated by the media climate that so prizes black-and-white soundbites and partisan spin you know so I say this detailed fact pattern of you know Hillary Clinton's flack called and said we're concerned about the big story wink wink and then suddenly this interview is off the books and I say you know that's significant because it just shows this subtle point of powerful people around Harvey Weinstein were had their backs up about it and then you know the next day that's a Breitbart headline like Hillary Clinton killed the Weinstein story and like well that's not supported by the facts that's a different point that isn't true and like most of reality lives in the subtlety's you know Tom Brokaw was incredibly accused of these things which shouldn't be dismissed and were part of a culture that that victimized people in significant ways and also he was one of the big supporters of the story you know hacia Argento was one of the first actresses to go on the record about Harvey Weinstein and then later paid off a seventeen year old boy who alleged that she had had sex with them at that age and you know I think the only way to confront those situations is to lay it all out I mean that's what I do in each of those cases it doesn't mean she couldn't have also been victimized by Harvey Weinstein because of this well not only can both things be true but that is a common phenomenon you know that that people who suffer a lot of emotional turmoil because of an assault like this you know become both victim and aggressor I mean that is a known psychological phenomenon and would not be surprising to me you have people like talk about the settlements feminist icon controversial icon Germaine Greer who says you know when this was all breaking in the kind of criticizing these women for taking settlements and how do you take the money and then complain about it later if you got the part or what not and I thought that it was really interesting your interviews with these women who signed settlements and just the total anguish that they felt yeah and how it was you know there's really no other option for them he's taken away their ability to earn a living can you take me like to sitting across the table from someone who has had their voice take it away and now there have an opportunity to get it back but potentially at a huge financial cost so lawyers who rely on these kinds of secret settlements for revenue like Lisa bloom or Gloria Allred make the argument that they're supporting survivors of sexual violence by facilitating these settlements that deprive them of the right to speak about it and theoretically that sounds great like not everyone wants to come forward to the press or to the justice system and this is a way for them to get something out of it we don't want to deny them that right and all I can say is anecdotally I have seen very few cases where that results in someone feeling happy walking away with their payout and many cases where someone is anguished about it and the ramification of it that you can't put blinders on no matter how sensitive you are to the situation of any person who chooses to sign one of these agreements is that predators stay in positions of power and can strike again and when you have repeat offenders who are using these agreements to conceal criminal activity over sometimes many years people are literally getting hurt as a result of those legal structures so my approach in the book I mean here again it's about laying out all the complexities is to never judge the sources I've worked with who did sign these kinds of agreements I make it really clear that very often they felt cornered into that you know and again there's no one-size-fits-all but in my experience in these cases when you sign an agreement like that particularly if you're someone like an Amber Gutierrez who has tried her best to work with the cops and bring someone to justice and then she's getting smeared she doesn't know if she'll ever work again her family is under attack in various ways read about and she finally feels like this is all I can do to take this money to make it go away to make the the hell stop and there's all of these elite lawyers that invariably descend on a person in this situation and are nudging them further you know these in some cases much older men saying this is your only option and so I completely understand why someone would do it and I think I returned to Amber's case a lot because she's honestly the example of probably how I would do it like take the million dollars and then just breach that thing immediately which is so scary I mean that's not to belittle which she did which took this Titanic risk but that's what people should breach them if they have to phone has anyone has anyone been sued no no I mean there's so and I'm never cavalier about it and I would never say to a source who's grappling with the decision like oh you should just not care like of course you should seek legal counsel and you should make a decision carefully you should care but you should care but you should also care about the information getting out and about protecting other people and you know it's not the end of the story when you sign one of these agreements one of the revelations of the last few years of tough investigative reporting not just about sexual abuse but across the board is NDA is are very hard to enforce you know there are some cases where people get forced into secret arbitration processes there's all these different pitfalls like many of them have a clause that says if you breach and I rich guy who had you signed this thing want to enforce it it can't go to the courts it has to go to private arbitration and that can be kept more secret but the reality is there's still labor intensive to enforce they still open up more avenues for public exposure even if it's an arbitration process it can leak and people can report on that so the answer is like we have seen some cases you know for instance it's been disclosed now that Omarosa is in secret arbitration processes with Trump for the stuff that she's revealed tomorrow so just get a tough that the Canadian reactions are you know what she was smart though she was smart she had a Canadian accent there she yeah she she was smart but you know I think that cases like that actually are far outweighed by the great quantity of cases including all of the ones I have reported on where people have simply not enforced these agreements you know the Fox News agreements didn't get him forced NBC subsequent to my reporting has now said they're gonna let women out of these secret settlements that they had although there are some catches there that are preventing women from going back to them they said they have to go and ask permission for them to be released from the agreements that they previously existed progress baby steps but overwhelmingly yes people are deciding not to enforce and Harvey Weinstein didn't enforce any of his and it's a whole nightmare to actually try to enforce this kind of an NDA I'm gonna take I have a couple audience questions I think I'm over time aren't I over time Natalie you're gonna get a hook on me no okay so start playing a song exactly we'll just sit up here in the dark so I have some audience questions for you how to do it are they for action from this audience or are they from Twitter because if they're from Twitter their rings are from Twitter because there's no spelling mistake so I think they're real I'm gonna probably mispronounced some names I'm really sorry but here let's go by obviously your story and catching kill seems perfect for a thriller film have you been approached for a film dear deal if so which actor do you think should play you [Laughter] grace Egan oh thank you raise grace in the audience grace oh yeah hey grace it wasn't from Twitter that's why it's not racist Thank You grace cannot being racist or sexist or whatever at they're kind of all Twitter my Twitter mentions are quite little no one should never look at the men cheese if I can give you one piece of wisdom yeah do not check the men cheese so yeah I have been approached about adaptations and that is very flattering obviously and I you know have taken some meetings about it because if as an incredibly cool director who admire wants to talk about it yes please absolutely but the reality of actually like you know giving the rights to someone is very different and honestly my situation right up until this point has been I kept telling people like I don't know where the plot ends and I'm in the middle of a good part of that question which is which actor do I have I'm a no fun person asked this question because I'm so it's just nuts and various who is going to play you well there are a lot of leaders level up in like you know what I mean like oh ya know I need someone much taller and more handsome to play me if that ever happens is that person well I'm trying to explain that my process would be to find a like an author who rises to a certain level where I feel emotionally connected to their work and then it also has to be later because I I had to finish the reporting and I kept telling people like I love having this conversation with you as a film nerd director X whose work I admire but also I need to do literally two years of reporting before I even think about the statuses and then the casting thing like that's a director decision it's a no pun answer but also there have definitely been some Twitter suggestions Twitter suggestions been they I get a lot of Ansel Elgort I got some Timothy Chalam a I got I always thought I used to get I used to get mislabeled in like wire image pictures as Dane DeHaan you guys know that character actor Dan Don he's very good well I don't know I don't know what he's doing these days but for people really excited if someone tweeted that right now that rodent floated very he was very good back in the day I don't know there were a couple of other suggestions oh yeah there were a lot of there were a lot of tweets about Taylor Swift's boyfriend whose name eludes me but he is he is a taller more handsome version of you I'm glad we got to any answer he was not he was in the favorite he was good in the favorite no no no one saw the paper we saw the favored animal it's not a favorite yeah okay uh has Law School helped you in your journalistic career from Rihanna Malik did I say that hi wherever you are she's done she got bored okay is your name really Rihanna Rihanna Adam well close enough for now yeah yeah has your yes about you the answer is is yes and these stories very much are like legal memos not in the sense that there are a work of advocacy in one direction or another but in the sense that they require a lot of precision and often having some cursory knowledge and my knowledge is usually cursory of the law is very useful and then also they kind of defending the story part of the investigative process where all those calls are coming in to the bosses and the lawyers and people are freaking out it is helpful at that point too to be able to say actually the case law really doesn't show that tortious interference applies in this kind of a situation those arguments and it's great cuz you are a lawyer like at the globe like we sometimes have reporters who are like I have legal expertise and they don't know I can play the lawyer card I pay my bar dues in the state of New York and I could theoretically defend you in a slip-and-fall but you would not that would be a great movie Ronan Farrow like ambulance chaser I could like the better call song better call Ronan alright we're getting we're getting somewhere now I'm probably like way over time so I'll just ask this last one because I think it's a good wrap it up here why-why-why needs trial is coming up yes with the judge recently ruling against his lawyers request what do you ultimately think will be the outcome and possible sentence from Karen lists so we have this is more than 80 women have come forward and accused Harvey Weinstein of impropriety sexual misconduct sexual harassment and/or rape there's only a couple of cases that are being heard in a court of law right now and we know how these trials often go there's no guarantee that he's going to be convicted we don't want there to be necessarily a guarantee we want a vigorous trial so we can feel good about the justice system but the odds are you know reasonably high he might walk away from this what are your thoughts on I mean what are you gonna do for the trial coming up and what do we do as a culture grappling with these situations or meet the justice system is not gonna get us there oh that's a lot of questions I did i double-barreled it so I mean the same prosecutors working the current New York case were in many cases involved in the previous efforts that let him off the hook don't feel good about that there so there are some good people I mean the NYPD people working on it are fabulous but I also just think that Cyrus Vance's office I sincerely hope that they are trying their best no because there's massive public pressure but like that's a very crooked outfit I think there are good prosecutors in that shop but I think that he himself has shown himself to be quite corrupt and susceptible to powerful interests trying to sway him and you know you've seen already in this process without speculating on what happens next because I have no crystal ball but just based on what's already happened that he's succeeded through a an ever-shifting team of high-powered lawyers in chipping away at the charges against him in getting one of the detectives fired you know his tendrils kind of encircle everyone who works on it and he's doing the thing he's always done to survive which is just chipping away chipping away and they already dropped one of the charges so we'll see there's still multiple charges that are proceeding to trial and there's also multiple jurisdictions that are still trying to build cases so I think it'll be a lot of years of Harvey Weinstein trying those survival tactics this was amazing thank you thanks for the company guy [Applause] what do you think same time tomorrow and we didn't even get to like your call with Meryl Streep on the phone yes Meryl and they're always a character in Katniss Natalie chirpy is the executive director has I think Georgia Supreme boss lady of the Canadian journalism foundation I have been treated to a superb hour of discussion on behalf of the see Jeff and the entire audience I'd like to thank Ronan Farrow a reporter who won't stop for joining us to share the story behind the story that couldn't be broken and if you want more and I'm going to need everyone's help here you can download the what have I done thank you [Applause] in 2018 we had the pleasure of honoring Ronan with our highest award for being unflinching in his work for having the courage and the tenacity to listen to you and believe the women who came forward and who are at the center of his story Ronan we hope you never stop we hope you eat and you get some rest but the world needs courageous truth tellers now more than ever and we're so honored that you were here with us - thank you thank you for what you guys do thank you our thanks to one of Canada's most intrepid investigative journalists Robin Doolittle who's been relentless in her work addressing challenges around consent culture and sexual politics and she is a gift to have on our stage leading this discussion tonight so to Ronan and Robin thank you again for nearly 30 years the Canadian journalism foundation has been a force for excellence in journalism we like to say as journalism goes so goes democracy a free and healthy press is a precious and vital institution and one we are proud to serve part of our mandate is this public speaker series where we explore the challenges facing the industry and there are challenges and we highlight the power of journalism what you've seen tonight to hold the world around us accountable in effect change our thanks to our wonderful media partner The Globe and Mail for their support with tonight's event and to Financial Group RJ Talk series sponsor our work would not be possible without the dedicated and generous support of our sponsors and all of you who are here tonight through your ticket proceeds in your support of this event we can continue to advance the dial on news literacy in Canada we can offer valuable fellowships for indigenous journalists journalists shedding light on women's equality issues and opportunities for emerging investigative journalists the next generation of Ronan Pharaohs and Robin Doolittle's so thank you for being with us to support truth and quality journalism and we look forward to seeing you at our upcoming events in the new year thank you [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] you

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Length: 78min 45sec (4725 seconds)

Published: Thu Dec 05 2019