ROASTING Six of Crows (Leigh Bardugo)

I'm just going to make a point though right now this is not a slowburn an asan cads are advertised as like the best slowburn on the market the slowo is the way they start as like friends who don't have feelings for each other and you get to watch each other fall in love they already like each other at the start of [Music] this hi guys and welcome to another episode of your favorite podcast it's unresolved textual tension today I have with me my rugged no not ruggedly handsome my handsome [ __ ] Katie and William and I am your host Maria hey guys what's up what book are we doing today Katie uh we are doing six of crows by Lee bardugo and this is our four third or fourth uh book of hers we read it's Fourth for us and third for you we' read uh ninth house which we thought was like good but kind of weird and not great in certain way I forgot that was written by her same person isn't it mind isn't it mindblowing honestly that only further imp like none of it's like a perfect gem but it's like really impressive honestly yeah the ending just was a mess well this book and that one have made me realize that Lee bardugo is a very talented but not a very competent writer usually it's the other way around people who aren't WR good writers can be very competent in their writing but in this case it's switched around and she's not getting better uh she's just getting worse if anything I would argue that heavily no uh 9th house was after this and I would say it's better I would say though structurally speaking it's it's a better book but I would say stru in terms of the skill versus competence dichotomy I was talking about I think the plotting in that book also has a lot of issues in the format of it so you think the competence of that one is worse than this one yes oh that's a claim that's a claim you're going to have to support that claim William oh there shall be Russian pistolas don't worry okay both of you guys no but specifically I think this book is better than 9th house I think 9th house ideas are really fresh and amazing and they're really cool things but it's not fully formed and I think freaking Shadow and Bone could just go live in a dumpster but like uh but no this book was Stellar bad I so knew this was going to happen let me really quick I don't think this book is bad I'm gonna say that outright I think it goes into the fine category we have read like it's not uh it's not Shadow and Bone it's not iron Flame or that ilk it's not acatar I I would say it is better than all of those and I would put it in the fine category for me this would be a be Tre like where you just need to turn your brain off you don't think too hard you don't like it's it's that's that's where it feels for me not even remotely how I feel about it but like I mean sure I guess it could be a be tree that's fine too but I wouldn't categorize it that way here's what we got to do we got to change it then so it's like this so we have person who disliked it the most person who second most disliked it and then Maria you have to point towards Katie no oh sorry I'm reversed so right now I'm pointing at you well you're still like pointing in the wrong direction and then Katie is the person who liked it the most so we have a spectrum um does anybody want to look up what uh Russian for pistolas is Valerie says Maria's center stage where she belongs that's a good point thanks guys well [ __ ] you oh actually there we go that's that's better um let's see I got the left hand and the right hand anyway getting back to the actual book Katie really liked it Maria thought it was fine I actually also mostly thought it was fine I have trouble figuring out what it is that I think this book does poorly but I know that it does a lot poorly well maybe we can figure it out through discussion for sure and and that's the feeling I got from a lot of the patrons on Discord when they were talking about it is they were just like unfulfilled by it and I feel like that's almost the best way to describe it and that's again why I think leardo is a very talented writer in that she can write these characters but she's not very good at like making them like she's good at making them likable but she's not actually good at like doing a character Arc or telling them in a way um and then there's certain characters who I just [ __ ] hate and uh three guesses who is who that is and I think everyone can immediately wait wait wait wait wait Cass of course it's Cass of course he hates Cass [ __ ] boy yeah Len there has only been one male character that has happening in this everyone everyone there is a bias happening because Cass is a stellar character in my opinion well that's the thing is oh they call you the Lonely Island because you're on one alone in the middle of the Pacific I don't think he's as bad as you do will I I did in the beginning but it mellowed out for me like the the way that the narrative spoke about no I actually quite like him and also like I'm going to be honest like like Maria I feel like maybe we'll agree cuz you haven't really explained your points yet so I'm a little iffy on stating this for you but I feel like you guys are sleeping on this so again Maria like keep in mind what I just qualified that with but I feel like you're sleeping on this you know like this was a really there's I mean there's an issue with it I specifically in a very specific two places where I'm like this ruined it for me a little and so but besides that I really liked this book again one of the things about this podcast is I learned things about my friends hey I like no somebody's comment one time was like Katie sees the gem in all the rough stuff and I think that's true in this case then I guess if like we have varying degrees of this opinion we have all been the island will and I read Dune and I read that to filth you know and and Will loves it as a book you know so like there's I didn't actually read it to filth but I had major problems with it the claim here is that six of crows is a great book and my claim is that it is a trash book I think it's a fine book I think you're both wrong Maria I think you and I are probably closer than you just qualified US as it's because it's not a book that I'll reread and it's not a book that like will even go in my top 10 but I really it has a special place in my heart it's because I had a lot of fun reading it would you say it's a great book a good book a fine book or a bad for me it goes right in the median like that middle I would say it's lukewarm edging on on soggy I think the writing skill in this is spectacular in some places I think yeah it's not Divine Rivals it's not Divine Rivals the perspective changes I don't like perspective changes on the best of days and the pect perspective changes in this actually show why you should use perspective changes oh see that's one of the things I think there's too many perspective now I do like per perspective changes and I'm going to make an argument that this book should have been told just from two characters alternating povs I think that's all you needed I think we should have cut [ __ ] Matias cut Matias cut Kati Maas has the most connection to this story than anyone else does as far as for being on this Mission he has the most Stakes compared to and connection I don't care about Stakes I don't think she wrote him well oh well I think she was rather unnuanced in that she can't really do World building so she can't really get into other people's like mind States or different cultures I think she did great world building in this book before we start by the way uh above Thea had said that um the Russian word for pistols is pyto so uh guys get ready for pisas let's go ahead and say what the um basic premises do you want to do the honors Katie we once again revisiting the world of Shadow and Bone we have a completely new city uh completely almost well yeah I inless Nina's mentioned it's a completely different country it's a completely different space uh if you've seen the TV show The Railroad people we are in the city of ceram which I kind of get the vibe as like steampunky Victorian cuz we have guns we have like peaky blinders gangs and stuff like that it's very Rag and muff and I can't have a sound I was no no no shut your mouth that hurt me anyway so we are in ker Dam that kind of city with our main main main character Cass Breer who is basically just think pey blinders um and he has a crew called the dredgers drags this is a heist book where he takes a lot of uh characters from a lot of different places including from ravka from Shadow and Bone and it's like a a hodge podge gang of you know like Misfits and they all bring together and we get little like flashbacks on where their Origins were and they go out on a heist to steal this little shoe boy uh basically he's Asian and um uh of some sort it's not specified and they go to save this shoe boy well that's the twist but anyway uh for this drug recipe that everyone wants their hands on because it makes Gia the really powerful people with like Avatar Powers um it's not just Elemental but yeah I guess it is Elemental huh are grea from everywhere or is that just their name I I got a little confused so Gia are you can be from everywhere but they have to come from but it has to come from certain Bloodlines like for instance when we find out Jasper spoiler warning is a Gia he got it from his mother's side um that that let him get it so they're it's not super common outside of ravka but you can have uh Gia that are not from ravka but they're just called grea like people individual countries don't have their own names for them they just call them grea the point is though is that this hodge podge group goes to steal a person who knows the recipe for a drug that makes those people's Powers really really awesome but then like craziness ensues in Heist uh you know issues things go wrong they have to adapt uh friendships are put on the line that kind of thing I think that's the vague gist of the book one thing I want to talk about is the TV show um and because it did kind of Define in certain ways how I engaged with the text oh really because um yeah so in two main ways one I think the actors bring a lot of life to the characters that they don't have in the book I'm going to assume Katie is going to disagree I actually liked the characters in the TV show a lot more than I like like the book ones except for mathas who I liked a lot more in the book than I did in the TV show um and the other thing is that we should just get out of the way that all these characters who are hardened criminals with tragic backstories and hypercompetence are 17 right and so I just imagined them the age of the characters the actors in the show and I kind of think that's what you're supposed to do because nobody treats them really until like the very end of the book like their children apparently liardo has wanted to write a heist like an adult Heist um and her Publishers were like nah fantasy is where it's at right now so she just aged everyone down and one of the ways you can tell is not only because they have all this informed badassness but also because otherwise nah who is a very classic fem fatel and is highly sexualized in the book is canonically 17 like let that sink in for a moment those who have read it how like creepy that would be if we were actually supposed to think she was 17 so I think basically for everyone involved it's just best if we all pretend that they were an older age you are approaching this from a like I don't know I just didn't view it through that lens like I understand what you're talking about and that makes sense I didn't view it through that lens at all well I think all he's saying is Le bardugo isn't expecting you to think of her as 17 the idea is that oh I get what you're saying yes yes these these characters should all be like 23 like that's like 24 maybe one to 27 Maas should be like 23 Cass should really be like 25 I mean if we had wanted to get you and Maria on board with Mias he should be like 45 but whatever go ahead yeah actually I was going to age him up a whole lot more originally but then I was like oh wait he's a young uh drug Dr Dr No and like it's again I think it's just best for everyone involved if we just assume so we're just going to talk about them like and and the thing is cuz like they're not going to act like teenagers they're not going to engage with the world they have too much they have too much life for for for well their tragic backstory happened like a year ago they act like it's a long time ago and it's like you are 17 there's not that much time for this to have happen it does not come off at all throughout the novel as if they're actually that age I'm fine with it being said that they are it's because a lot can happen in those young years especially in a shitty place in a shitty town but like uh and I like there are certainly many people I've met who have gone through entire lifetimes of experience and that amount so it's like forgivable or whatever but it's just it is now that you're pointing it out kind of funny like yeah and but like nobody treats them like kids like nobody is like what are these children doing here it comes up a couple of times in some places um but I understand what you're getting at just age them up it like they were aged up in the show like I'm pretty sure all the characters were aged up in the show or at least played by actors and they didn't talk I I can't remember if they talked about ages in the show but like the vibe is we're not dealing with like a gagle of 17-year-olds who like are all 17 I don't think like I think one of them is like 16 like it's not that we're like we have a 19-year-old an 18-year-old and then like the youngest one in NE is 17 you know like none of that no all the the whole time uh Jasper Jasper was like making fun of um wiland and it's like oh your baby face it's like he's a year younger I'm like what yeah it's so funny so that's just not an angle of criticism we're going to really engage in like we're mentioning it now and we're just not going to like there's we're going to leave it as is okay so ktie made a lot of faces when I was talking about how I liked the actors more than the characters and I thought they brought a lot of Charisma to it so let's return to that Katie what are your thoughts I thought the show I don't know it was just there was nothing special there was it was so not good quick because I think I think I'm on the same page as you but I'm also a little bit on the same page as well the story of the keram crew and the crows in the show was just garbage like they were being shoved into a story they shouldn't have been their story had no Stakes cuz they shouldn't if we're talking about six of crows exclusively certainly I mean I don't like the whole show no no no he is talking specifically that he liked the actors for the crows better than their book counterparts and I'm gonna agree I I liked caz's actor I don't think I watched enough of I the only so if there's more to this than that then I definitely have missed out but I only watched up to the point where they made it on the other side of the darkness in the oh then you then you missed stuff yeah okay then you can't talk to me about it then yeah so so I liked Cass better in the show especially versus beginning book Cass cuz Cass in the show just was super practical and and less of like I'm the baddest [ __ ] in gev Dam and more of just like I'm bad but nobody else like nobody needs to know how like like there was just like this quiet confidence about him in the show like like more akin to that guy from Scorpio races yeah yeah yeah I would 100% agree with you it's because I got that vibe from the beginning too but I think that's more like I mean I guess you could really get in picky and like argue the difference between this but personally in my mind that's more of Lee bardugo's uh narrative thing not like being a little heavy-handed versus the actual character himself within the story itself they they fundamentally change his character the most but other characters who I feel like are supposed to be Charming in the book are actually Charming on the show like The Jasper on the show he's just played by a really fun actor you know what I mean like he's just fun that's who I was picturing the whole time yeah it's kind of like how um gidy in the ninth is really good but the voice actress brings a lot of small subtleties to the character through the voices she does for them I felt like that for the characters and then Cass is the only charact well Cass and Nina a little bit but mostly Cass is the one who I feel is like a very different character on the show and I liked that character so much more than this Cass Breer I'm trying to come up with a good punt on his name that demeans him but I haven't come up with it yet in the chat if you think of one help me out I in the beginning was not a fan of Cass because the book was just uh going too hard on how cool he was and how bad he was but then once the actual plot started it simmered down on that and it just focused more on cas is introspection and I was much more okay with that so I'm I'm going to say right now I do not think Cass is as terrible as will does I don't I I think he gets better as the book goes on and I think there are some interesting things he has to deal with might I'm just going to make a point though right now this is not a slowburn unless we are talking about Jasper and Wildland all the people who promised me a slowburn no here's the reason why it's advertised no it's aan CS are advertised as like the best slowburn on the market because they don't actually get together it's not a slowburn is where they start as like friends who don't have feelings for each other and you get to watch each other fall in love they already like each other at the start of this out of all the relationships offered to us in this my favorite one was jper and Wyland although like that was like that was Hardcore slowburn um no but like I I really like Cass period I see I just like I view it I view it a little differently it's like the art from the artist type of thing I I feel like that she has a lot of problems throughout the entire book where she's very repetitive in certain narrative functions and she keeps repeating character qualities and it gets really sick and tiring especially around when they're in the prison once they're in the prison but prior to that it was vaguely forgivable for a hot second and so that's why the beginning doesn't bother me it's because I'm just kind of like whatever it's like I I don't I it doesn't bother me enough personally but as the book went on I'm like oh for the love of God please stop it's the same problem as in the book that wouldn't burn except for like not as bad actually not it's not as bad as that yeah it's not as bad as that one because that would go on for like Pages um but I don't need to be REM I don't need like again an anime recap of each character's background each time I go to their perspective our main cast of crew is C Breer like Katie said he's the like Lieutenant of a prominent gang in ceram um he's had a hecking hard go of it they all have like except for jper jper is the only one who has like made his fate but uh they uh he's had a hecking hard go of it his brother dead his fortune uh that they got from the S sale of his father's Farm taken from him his brother died of a terrible thing and he was on a corpse barge for a while and now he can't touch people and has problems letting people near him and he has hardened himself into a criminal mastermind um uh that's Caz uh and he also has a crush on this girl named Ines second character in uh the girl that I mentioned that was sold into child prostitution she was taken from her family who were a troop of acrobats and performers that traveled the Ravin Countryside uh she was stolen by people and now she uh and then she worked at a pleasure house for like a little bit which was real rough she didn't like it and then Cass was like you moveed so silently I didn't even notice you come work for the drgs we'll buy your contract and you shall work for us and I shall train you how to kill people and she's like no I don't want to kill people and he was like some you say that now but wait till they're trying to kill you and then it'll happen uh and those two like each other from the beginning there's no there's no mystery immediately they're like okay for those that AR very ADT for those that aren't uh watching and are listening I I I pantomimed looking at someone like shyly from the back of my hand uh anyway uh and then we have Jasper Jasper is a gunslinger pew pew pew and he has a gambling problem he does not have a tragic backstory he just uh struggled focusing and doing stuff and he had always had a lot of energy so his father sent him to un University in keram and he decided you know what [ __ ] University gambling is my calling uh and thus ended up working for the drags as a hire as a gunman um and he is uh sassy and he's not sassy and he's not sassy in a bad way I I I find jper kind of charming again the guy who acted him in the show he brought life to this character he was absolutely great and it's it's who I thought and pictured the whole time um and I Jesper is just like a fun character again he's not tragi backstory uh and then we have um he also pretends to have like lived a really rough life when he's talking to wiland and it's like no you lived on a farm and then went to University like and we well enough to go to university and then you just kind of started killing people for money like that's not you you're not like a really rough and tough kudin like and I would have liked it if from point of view it there was a moment where he was like I say this because I am self-conscious of the fact that I didn't love live a rough life so I'm going to take it out on the only person I can cuz you there is a way to get that across out of the character um and he doesn't the character doesn't have to explicitly say that to the reader but there are ways to get that across and unfortunately bardugo doesn't take that route anyway next we have Nina nah is a grea from ravka but she was uh captured at well she ended up working for this place called like the white roses she works for Cass Breer as well she is a heartrender which means she can close your windpipe make your heart speed up or slow down she can make you pass out she can close your nasal cavities um all that kind of [ __ ] stuff and uh Cass uses her for information and to like help heal guys even though she's not actually a Healer person she's very sassy quirky Fel nah is big booby anime girl the blonde big booby girl guess who my second favorite character in this book is so that's Nina but her tragic backstory which was a year ago was she was captured by fan Drew skella who are witch Hunters who Fan's basically like Norse no no no they're witch hunter Nazis let's be very clear it's not like just like the hunt witches no they're straight up Nazis from Sweden they hate uh the grea they think they are unnatural and they have this whole brotherhood like like Warrior monks basically like racist Jedi but without match Nina she got captured by these but guess what one of them was like a really hunky Nazi witch hunter who's also around her age and isn't 40 yeah and he's like only slightly less bad be because he's the only decent one that doesn't want to rape them and his name is Matias not Maas though that's how it's spelled why is it Matias I don't like the word Ma I don't that's not what I would expect I don't know that's that's a very like and it's a very European thing but uh she she's captured by the fans they're going to take her and put her on trial and then a storm comes and smashes the boat to bit and then she's floating in the ocean with Matias but she saves Matias and then Matias and her like harass each other to Shore and then they they bond and they have to learn they have to learn how to see past how they are like cuz in her mind he is an evil drusella who hunts her people and has killed people and for him her people killed his family and so they're they're each each other's greatest monster but they have to work together to survive sleep naked with each other and they get turned on and then they went you know like this would have worked as an anime let me tell you that is a Trope in Manga and Anime that comes up like it is a shjo Trope like it's the cold big booby anime girl that's what I'm saying that's Nina they they begin to like become friendly and and like stuff and and everything is kind of going well and he like they they finally make it to civilization and he's like I won't turn you in I'll get you on a ship back to rafka and then uh we don't know why but then she goes up to some kch people and is like he's a slaver you need to take him and then he's put into prison and then she spends the next year trying to get him out of prison but now Matias who's our fourth main fifth main character hates her um and it's like you betrayed me I knew you were terrible you grea witch but also you're so hot I keep like thinking about it I still have wet dreams about you regularly those of the worst ones the ones where I kill you are better yes and he's very betrayed by his own body for her um he is my here here's the thing in the TV show I didn't really like him or but like he is my favorite character in the book part of it is his voice actor is the guy from Hyperion and so it has a slightly like I think I'm cool but I'm not feeling to him and like he also has one of the tropes I like which is dumb character doesn't really realize how dumb he is though I think more should have been done with that but yes he and he is I will argue the should have been the sole POV and main character of this entire book oh I like that idea it's so much better I will return to it after Maria has her rant no no there's still there's still another character there's six crows there's six I only did five isn't a character but he's one of the crows there are six crows he is the six Crow why is he the only [ __ ] without a POV cuz then you'd find out he couldn't read and she'd have to give up the ghost about the plot twist at the end that's the only reason that is the only reason whyn is not a POV character because at some point that [ __ ] would have mentioned he couldn't read yes cuz it would have been a like a huge concern of his considering how embarrassed he is of it so when they're hired to do this Heist they're hired by this uh mercher a merchant named vanac and Vanek is like heck you're a rich guy who works on the council for the city merchants and he's like you need go do this for me Wan is Van X's estranged son and there Cass is like this is my insurance cuz uh I found letters that vanck wrote to his son begging him to come home so he obviously like wants his son so this is how I make sure I get my payday and so w comes on the the the the journey and is a m like one of the main six characters doesn't have a POV Wan is very good at math he can make stuff he's basic basically like if you were playing D and D he's an artificer like he's an artificer as a class um uh and he uh I him and Jesper have the started where they start off kind of like butting heads jper keeps giving him [ __ ] uh and is just annoyed by wyland's presence and eventually by the end they they uh they they get to know each other and they're fond of each other and and to the beginning inklings of being like Sam is he kind of cute uh and it's the only true burn about this book anybody who tells you that in and Cass are a slow burn are are [ __ ] lying to you don't do it and uh W makes things go boom and and that's that's the cast okay can you see how these all six are coupled I hate it very obviously so I'm I'm going to I'm going to go a little bit I'm just I'm just going to talk through some stuff this book suffers because it breaks its own tension a lot this book has multip multiple uh POV main characters and luckily for the most part they are all together with each other or the plots are going forward sometimes with POV characters their stories are so disperate that when they switch to a new point of view you're literally like I don't care about what's happening over here I wanted to know what was happening this book doesn't do that what it does do is that in the middle of almost every chapter from every POV we get a detailed flashback of their past I will say their pasts are more interesting than the current [ __ ] story I would argue that no caz's history way more interesting than C right now yeah yeah yeah yeah you're right you're right you're right uh M Matias and Nina's story like oh that's there's so much more depth the only people who don't have in-depth flashbacks is Jesper who has zero flashbacks his chapters uh do we even have a W chapter no no there's no W chap so yeah never mind yeah um and then in has some but hers I would say are integrated the best with what is Happ 100% around her like one of the best flashbacks she has is directly tied into what is happening in a scene I I will argue that as a character in amongst the crew feels the most emotionally like void like she she just she's she's the FL of the characters and by what flat I don't mean that she's a flat character I mean she's the least developed as far as personality Vibe like uh I think that but you could also argue that that reflects her literally not knowing herself and finally becoming the person but that if that's a case then we should have had a book just from her point of view where she finds out who the [ __ ] she is like it it it as a point point of view character she's not adding it oh I get what you're saying you have this main plot that's happening okay and and it's uh it's a high Heist you know and everybody's got their role but then in the middle of it we got to go back four or five years to talk about kaz's tragic backstory go back a year ago to talk about Matias and Mina's backstory who were giving you because it's the same backstory the two of them have the same backstory but you're getting it from both of their perspectives in different chapters uh and then you're also getting in's tragic backstory where she was put into child prostitution um which the book never says is child prostitution but she was she was at the managerie how long before Cass got to her which was like a year ago so she was like 16 no no it was young I feel like it was younger than that too it's I cuz if she's like 14 I don't know it the regardless when she is kidnapped by slavery she's like five more minutes Papa so I'm like Jesus yeah she was 14 so child prostitution you know we're doing great uh the the the book never looks at you like the book never looks at you and goes this is child prostitution you all of a sudden all of a sudden you're all of a sudden you're like oh my God this is child prostitution like this is this is rough for a while I couldn't figure out if she'd actually had sex with people there or not CU I felt like the book was saying she hadn't um also Ben in the Discord called it the furry brothel which I think is a very funny name yes I also agree um for those who don't understand that because I feel like we'll never get back to that detail all the Exotic girls dress up as different animals and so so we're dealing with all of the these different things and unfortunately at a certain point it is breaking its own tension when the plot is kind of excelling and and getting somewhere and you're like oh a thing is happen dragged back down we're dragged back down and then you get into that story like a couple times with Cass or with Nina and Matias you're into that story but now we have to go back to this and so this is like a constant thing of like Rising falling tensions like the whole way [ __ ] through and I'm just like yo yo can we calm down and then you switch to different character point of views and despite the fact that they're all in the same way because each character is having really specific internal crisises you're also dragged back by that um the fact that this book is as fine as it is is a test amount Testament to the fact that she is a talented writer because this should not work this many povs this many flashbacks should not work very talented but uncomp incompetent writer it's like it's a very odd combination I don't like the word incompetent I think there's a different word that would match specifically the specific thing that she's missing in this but you know what's funny is that I think in a few instances I I feel like I see her vision and I and it's very like media heavy like visual media heavy in the way she presents it in some ways which it works in some ways and it doesn't in others but let uh but I think she works she works in the flashbacks very well in several instances so for example I feel like when we got kaz's flashback to his brother if it was just staged off a little longer it would be the perfect moment for us to learn more about him I like eedes and we'll talk about it later some flashbacks about her parents while she's climbing something in later on in the story which is what Maria was probably talking about earlier um so there are several examples where she did do a good job but I think honestly the more we're talking about it the more I almost I think I agree with you Maria I think they should have I think she would have benefited from the lack of page space that would have come from cutting perspectives another problem with the perspective thing very quickly before Maria continues her tie raid this is a heist it cuts all tension about whether the people are going to backstab each other or not or if it's going to work or not if we keep switching back and forth between people and their motivation so like at one point Maas seems like he's betrayed Nina and you're like no we were with him a chapter ago we know he isn't we know Cass isn't going to do this it's like there's no tension involved at all in the characters I disagree I there there was a point in the book where I was like oh my God is she going to write a horrible ending to this and is this like but it didn't make sense for the character this is okay so this is my number one gripe there's a point in the book where I stopped believing in the characters as being real characters and they become become more puppets and that's specifically a point when they're in this prison that comes later in the book and I was like oh this is not going the way I was hoping it would go and thought it would go this is becoming very depressing and dumb and like a waste of my time and then it bipolar bipolar like switches goes back up in tone and I don't believe that like between those two moments of emotional like what's happening between the characters I don't believe that it was it's not the character's fault it's literally I don't think it's written well so that's that's what he's saying though cuz actually you guys are arguing the same point I'm going to translate for you yes so what he's saying is because you are in all the characters head that moment where suddenly you're like why are they doing this why is this working this way that doesn't make sense given what I've known before if it had only been from two of the characters perspective you could have had that tension you could have had that tension because you would have actually I think we're all agreeing with each other yes that's my point we're we're speaking the same language the problem you have in that moment is that you have been in all of their heads you know what they were thinking you know what they were doing so suddenly when everybody starts doing weird you're like Po why yeah why my dude and the worst one the worst one of all of these is in my despite how much I like him Cass is one of the worst ones and then ma ma thinks you want to drill my eyeballs out of my head I don't understand what Lee bardugo is doing with his character throughout the entire book this is the problem is she needed to flesh out some of these things more that she didn't have time to do and again at a certain point the plot took over the character and also it saps the tension because we're like that's not actually what's going to happen so then when there's that moment where it goes back up in tone you're like okay I guess this is what was going to H like that's one of just the problems this has I'm going to be leaving a lot of my criticisms and stuff till as we go through the plot because otherwise it's just going to frontload a lot but did you have more rage you wanted to go on Maria a couple of people in the dis in our Discord noted that the heist Works a little too cleanly at a c at a couple points um where you think that they're not working but then it was part of the plan the whole time it removed my belief in it like it it it I could tell I could see the author's hand in those moments like that is my biggest CPE is from them getting AR uh them going into the prison from them then on and the thing is it's true there are times where and and what it does is it saps attention there's this moment where you are legitimately kind of scared for an edge like this whole thing and you're like oh what's happening and then it was like this was the plan the whole time and like that doesn't work it's one of the complaints I have with Oceans 11 where there's that point where you think the plan went aai and they had to like think on their feet and deal with it and no that's he planned it that way the whole time and he knew it was going to happen and like I'm sorry I just don't believe people are that [ __ ] smart like and and it saps away the moments where you think okay how is this character going to deal with this new situation and handle it in a creative way but it it saps that if it was all just planned by planning MC pler you know what would have sold me more on the overall black code or Black Flag or whatever black situation um their final plan so I think she does a 92% well job except if she had just put in water like Illusions and like a few other water things like a not automonopia but but like used the sound thing earlier on weaved into two places in the book for Cass I would have believed what happened but also it's it's just well there's other things too but but it's just rough that Cass would not in we're in his point of view how is he hiding information from the reader that's why not having I think Cass would have worked and also Cass worked the best from other people's points of view I liked his backstory but he was I thought he was much more impressive in other people's point of view I think having the first book where you're not in caz's head and then have the second book so the first book about Matas and Nina and like their part like cuz Nina's connected to the story from the beginning you get Matas it's about the two of them and then book two we get into Kaz kaz's head after we've gotten to know him as this other thing and then we realize the stuff between because then it makes the whole water river thing make sense cuz we weren't in caz's [ __ ] head the whole time and why didn't he why didn't he once think I hope we have more of that stuff that'll blow up the tree yeah I uh I told my husband when I was listening to that moment where he's like the sound thing about the tree in the water if you've read it then you understand um I said it was like kind of like her playing the like Wizard of Oz thing of like oh but look the reveal is this but the problem is is that since we are in their heads I don't like it's very it's movie that's what I'm saying about the visual media thing it works better if it's an anime this whole thing feels a lot more the flashbacks make more sense if this is an anime that's what I'm saying it she when I said that she relies on visual media inspiration at least it feels like it what I mean is is that that would make sense for us not to know what was going on in their head or in an anime or in a TV show all of the stuff that is a problem because we're in the character's heads would be completely eliminated you would have the tension of is this character going to betray this other character is this thing going to work out like you would have all of that in like it all of that would just be wiped away and so I I do think that like she had like it's almost like she's a very talented uh like storyboarder um and and she's talented in specific scenes like the scene of Cass on the dead people barge oh was like a well-written scene you know it was very I was like yeah maybe I wouldn't want to touch people after that either um the problem is I think she's not as good as the introspect at the introspective thought stuff I think that's where she fails a little bit she also it fails partially because it doesn't connect to the things that like happen as well as it should um so I think we've anyone else have any other points CU I think we've gone on we we really we we front loaded quite a bit of this the first pre scene of the book proper is like this shadowy deal in a dockyard where inz is a the wraith right so she has ninja skills and she like is watching from afar as Cass and his crew are meeting like another crew and they have very like dieni and British peaky blinders dialogue that feels a little Broad and um in this scene I realized that Caz I was going to hate almost more than any other character oh my God because this is the scene where he we find out he is always in control and everyone always knows that he's in control and he can read anyone perfectly and he's always five steps ahead and he's a badass what you don't like men that are just dicks like he that's all it is he's secretive dick this is what would have made Cass work better is if Cass had no fighting skill and physically had [ __ ] all oh my God that would make it a million purely the brain the very first thing that came to mind when uh Cass later on is able to like handle himself and he's like like peeky climbing up four like five flats of stairs he is literally has a bad leg like I I like it it does encumber him so I'm not going to say it doesn't but it does end that line of being like just there for the sake of being there um and he does too much yes and I would have 100% the very first thing I thought when he fought was why is he fighting why is this happening I mean don't get me wrong it's like if if this were a story just of Cass and like I wanted to go on like you know where I eat all the yummy stuff and none of the good stuff for me then yeah that would be very wish fulfillment that would be very fun but that's not why do you think girls love him and I mean in fandom well yeah of course why wouldn't you uh God I [ __ ] hated him but as a true like analysis of a character it doesn't really make a ton of sense for him to be able to carry himself or if he does it's always always always always through heavy hardcore cheating like throwing sand in someone's eyes or like always having something on that other person that will stop them from physically encountering him I also think it would have worked better given that he if we were going to play in the fact that he it does have a bad enough leg that he has to walk with a cane regularly and if he doesn't his leg gets really sore I think it would have worked really cool if people actually couldn't recognize him and he was just the guy in the shadows he had a like select group of people that he worked with um but that he was like he let uh he let um uh per piscal Pascal something like that yeah A Pas yeah it is like air Pascal or something cuz I just remember thinking pure hasell it's pure has got it um if he let pure Cas like everybody just thought it was him and people heard of CAS Breer but nobody was really sure who he was like I think that would have worked like cuz the I like the idea of the genius in the background just he knows what he's good at he stays in that he also knows that physically if he's captured in a fight he's not going to do well and so and he poses as just a normal like run-of-the-mill lowlevel thug or not even Thug but just like Runner inherently he seemed like what you just dep like not the the what we actually got but the the man behind everything and they know him maybe as dirty hands but they don't know who he is they just know he wears black gloves and or something like that and cuz that's all you can see are his black loves like I felt like that was all inherently built into the character and then for some reason like we had to op him a little bit so uh science fantastic makes the point Kaz is just the greatest at everything plus he's an [ __ ] I guess that's a wish fulfillment but it's irritating to me yes so there there's a couple of problems the first is that I don't like how women write male wish fulfillment careact love interests but that's a longer Point Cass should be the character he is in the show because in the show show I didn't get the sense he was very good at fighting until halfway through like season two like he knows how to smack someone with his his his Cane unexpectedly but like he's not a fighter and that's not the impression I got from the show early on he's also much more of a smalltime criminal I felt like in the show I don't I didn't feel like he was this world spanning he's also not re Sandy with his banter that is a big thing that I [ __ ] hated about Cass in this book is he has that kind of like I'm a superior [ __ ] and I make jokes and banter greed will bow to me yeah just dumb [ __ ] like that and in the show the actor says everything with this like H kind of like he's Sullen he's very Sullen in the show and that felt much a little bit younger and also a lot more realistic like yeah he's on the outs the book also the show also helps in that he's an underdog when the show starts whereas here he starts as I'm perfect and awesome and everyone knows I'm perfect and awesome and I can just like unman people like yeah shoot me quip quip quip um and even the same dialogue in the show will come off very differently like there's a scene in in season two well okay so not talking about the same dialog but in terms of his character there's a scene in season two where him and nah are like trying to catch some Chinese lady and like nah is is like constantly needling him with and you can get get the sense that he doesn't really know how to Banter and he doesn't like to and he's just kind of annoyed at this whole interaction whereas book him would be like bantering back and and and quippy he's very quippy I love the show version then so much cuz the thing is is I think I think I saw the show version in what I wanted of this character and I think like that's why I can acknowledge it's not like as good as it could have been but simultaneously I really like that character archetype and I really I I'm literally picturing I think the show thing and I think I'm just forgiving the other things cuz I didn't see the show as a comparison I think that's honestly what is happening because as someone who has seen both I when I started the book I really didn't like Cass because of how like he was just like qu qu I didn't feel one way or the other I I just was like okay I'm getting introduced I guess and part of it is because I liked show Cass and so uh I'm going to highlight a comment Lindberg says showcast comes off as realistically neurotic and paranoid which makes sense for orig planner and that's what I wanted do you know how cool it is to have a planner slash um like the the strategist like the type A strategist in the background cuz like in every friend group there's the friend who plans everything like if you're going on a girls trip there's the one who books everything does everything in in couples there's always the one that has to plan everything and I am very much that person in almost everything I go on vacation with my mom's guys she and her boyfriend were going on a three-day little trip away and she literally made an itinerary planner that she wrote in like third person and like sent to her boyfriend with like pretend everything as if it were like a real package deal she had just purchased and it's so and she did that for me when I came down to see her when we were younger and I was just coming to sleep over at her house she made an itinerary of all the activities we were going to do the times and the days with little pictures and icons so yes she is a planner I also plan for like like there are six things we could potentially do but realistically we're only get to two maybe three you know like I I'm I'm very aware of like H human limitations but anyway so like I I I liked in the show that like that guy with that level of like worry and planning and and like forethought into what is happening was ju wasn't a badass like fighter person wasn't he was just the neurotic planner like I I really enjoy that and also again you can't you can't be uh great at everything and unfortunately Caz just is yeah and he's pitted against a lot of characters who make dumb mistakes against him and it's it's very very annoying again show has is that rigid planner he's down on his luck and like there and again the actor brings a lot to it I I didn't feel like he was a big fighter either and again so like show Caz has weaknesses whereas book Caz is just a wish fulfillment love interest and I hate it um he's not in the top Pantheon of characters I hate he's not patras he's not a Chile's um but I would put him only slightly above like a reand I wouldn't go that hard I think you like reand though so no I don't feel one way or the other I feel actually now that you've literally said that I guess so maybe I don't know I really like the image of what I have of of my version of Cass I guess that's fair I that's fair and so this whole thing happens and then after this whole like in media res thing is when uh Cass gets kidnapped of he immediately turns it on his captors because whatever I didn't like that at all oh my God that's when I was like why does he ever travel alone yes dude why did en wait wait wait we need to stop real quick en is literally his I I thought she was his bodyguard why did she leave him in a dark alleway why isn't he always just surround like he should have two goons behind him at all times he's a big guy he has a lot of information yes his room at the the the little house where they live in should be the only place where he gets any real rest cuz that's the place where he's alone like that guy should always be packing some people doesn't make any like literally when that when she walked away I was like wait it's just the dumbest like thing like again cuz like you can't you can't have anyway so he gets taken up he's he's taken by these uh guards also there I we have to explain the prologue the prologue is from a random guard's point of view who's like um uh I I have a crush on this girl and then the girl is uh Gia and then she's fed a drug and it makes her go kind of crazy and she like uses like her powers in a way that no greous be able to use her powers and you're like oh [ __ ] there's a drug that's making Gia extra powerful but also making them s sick and addicted to it so and then back to the point we're at so Cass gets uh kidnapped by that guy I mentioned uh who is like the rich mercher who's like uh the guy who invented this drug that's terrible um is being held by the fans and you need to go capture him so we can make him safe and and protect him but also make sure nobody gets access to this drug because it will uh crash the economy and ruin trade lines and it shall be aox upon all houses um and and he's like I will pay you 10 million Kruger and Cass is like no and then he's like 12 20 million krugger and Cass is like maybe and he basically like it's held in this place called The Ice Palace uh or Castle I don't know it's in the fean like most secure place that very few people have been in it's the Pentagon basically except for more intense apparently like it's the Nazi bunker so that's the vibe we're getting here is that it's literally impenetrable and there is no information from which he could possibly Garner a plan into the inside yeah it's like oh God you can never make it this is another example of what we were just talking about about Cass being invulnerable it's not like he is blackmailed to into doing this job he literally is just like no give me more money and more money like if he had been blackmailed into it or if the guy had leverage over him it would have been a weakness and that's not there it's one again one of the ways he is just the super best and it's also a way to get him like an emotional stake into the cuz at a later point he discovers that the guy that he hates is also doing this and then that gives him like he's like oh I need to beat that guy but like you need that emotional stake earlier and and you're right well I think having like an actual reason why he has to do this thing and like the only people who have that like it's Matias like he he needs his freedom everybody else is just like yeah money okay so that's another thing we need to talk about is that no actually let's introduce Matias first Caz goes to nah uh we described who nah was before she's like on her and she's been trying to get into Hellgate to get Matias out and Cass is like okay we need somebody who knows the ice court so Matias will get him out finally and they go to Hellgate which is a super awful prison and he's like in a fighting pit because of course he's in a fighting there's always fighting pit there's always a fighting pit always rich people trying to make money on it anyway they break him out of prison wait you forgot there's also one other thing there's also always exotic animals being hitted against in in the fighting pit and he has to kill some wolves which is sad because wolves are like his spirit animal anyway they get Matias out Matias is like I'm not doing this and then they're like we'll give you your freedom and he's like you're asking me to betray my country and he also like wants to kill Nina because Nina did this to him him getting broken out of prison was the only part of this book that I felt like I kept wanting to read it because I wanted to see what had happened with him and nah him and nah occupy archetypes that I'm fond of and their relationship type is a type I'm fond of um but I don't think it's done great throughout the series I throughout the oh it's awful I thought at first it was a little bit better because we didn't know about their backstory so you can just mentally fill it in as having made sense but later we get flashbacks and you're like oh no this is at her normal writing quality um and so mathas again this is where I'm going to make my argument that Matias should be the only main character in this book so a couple of reasons first off he starts as out as an underdog already we're kind of on his side B he he um he is the new person coming into the group like in a heist or like in a war story you have the new person who joins the existing Squad okay cool the um thing that they're trying to do fascinating in terms of it really ties into his ideas of honor and its immediate moral conjur the heart at war with itself as Martin would say and like it there are real Stakes involved they're going to be going back to his homeland and then there's the whole emotional thing of nah and like okay him and Nina's relationship will be Complicated by this um this Mission um that is not what happens he almost immediately gets slapped down by Cass like he tries to rush Cass and Cass wins because he's super perfect and that was the moment where I [ __ ] hated Cass more than anything um and like the other thing is that I would have really liked matias's Viewpoint because there there's a part where when the crows are like talking to him or whatever he's like yeah they I know they think I'm dumb but I'm not as dumb as they think and I really liked that and there could have been so much done with the um drelli idea uh the witch Hunters of the um the gcia as like aberration of nature like a walking Singularity that kind of changes everything around it and like that would have been such a and especially like the idea maybe of a little bit more like of a commi spirit type thing where they're like enslaving the world a little bit or maybe you could have also had some explanation of like okay maybe they are Escape servants from some kind of a grea realm or maybe the G they had to keep fing an army with Gia and so they had like these more specialized squads and now it's becoming more of a toxic thing um but there like there could be so much more done with that idea um especially because at the end of the book um uh Nina will get like on that super powerful drug or whatever and like that is a thing that makes you go crazy and super powerful and so even if he's learned to accept her as she is now that would put even more strain on it that she actually is now uncontrolled and kind of crazy um and also it cuts down on the Viewpoint problem we don't have six other viewpoints and the other thing is that all of a sudden there's so much more tension because going into this Heist we we should have C has a goal which is to free this Chinese guy and get the money Nena has a girl in that she want uh she wants to kill this Chinese guy so he doesn't become bad for grea and Matias has a goal in that he like maybe he's going to betray them maybe he's not and so like that's three conflicting goals and the thing about a heist is you want everything to go to [ __ ] at the same moment you want players who are kind of outthinking each other um and so that would have been really interesting and that is not the book we got along with making mathas the sole perspective I would have also tampered down on some like dumb features of the uh like uh I keep forgetting the furance such as that they believe women should stay in the home and hurt like I I just feel like that's like kind of like doing it on purpose to make them seem just like kind of big dumb animals and I don't like that that's like I it didn't have to be in there for any reason whatsoever and it doesn't really necessarily make sense per se I don't know I don't know it just doesn't feel like it fits and so uh I like your idea will about making it because all of those plot points that he mentioned literally it's almost like it's pre-made to have him like the way she has everything structured as the main character and then you could expand beyond that from each other character's perspective and like if you wanted to expand it into a series and everything well I think Maria's idea is brilliant this book is matias's book the next book is kaz's book because he's been introduced in third person and then and then the last book is jesper's and uh you can build it okay that's fair just stupid character yeah but I think that's a much better way to do a duology and also have these two men who have conflicting things and and ways that they have to like overcome this thing and uh kaz's story being set in keram makes sense that's his world this book is uh matias's world and so I think yes even more so I think that's the way to do it I think the problem is bardugo made six characters that she really liked and she Ben mentioned this in the in the Discord so you're quoting him nice job G come after you oh no sorry I hadn't read that one I will say Ben Ben also made this point um and it's like she she created this cast of characters and she went I want all of them and I want all of their backstories I love it so much because I one thing I will say is that this book is written with love you can tell bardugo likes these characters that she she enjoys them that there is there is like there is a a heartfelt to the narration in a way that like you can tell that this was a a labor of love for her but unfortunately she could not do the necessary cutting and slashing that would have really tightened this up as a narrative you can tell this exact same story from matias's point of view you can fall in love with Cass and imagine how much better the slowburn idea of Cass and a n would be if it was just Matias noticing [ __ ] in those moments some of my best uh like uh shifts have been characters who weren't the POV character but the POV character just like saw stuff and you were able to like put it together because you get to put in all the tension and add it all in and it's just Mah it's so good authors don't understand that the reader should want a little always want a little bit more than you are giving them and the thing is I actually don't think I would have disliked Cass as much of a character from a third person point of view no you absolutely wouldn't have especially if he matches wi with wits with Mias and actually kind of like gets deflated a little bit in the end in certain ways like that he's he's a much better charact he's like the lone badass and like that character is much better introduced from another character's point of view than from their own cuz they just sound pretentious in their own you could also work in a lot of themes a lot better like over a long period of time like so for example the how Cass doesn't want to touch people um you wouldn't Matias wouldn't necessarily like look into that too much but he would note oh he's wearing gloves okay but then later when he has them off or like him recognizing the panic attack or anything like that later on where just those little things you would be hooked as a reader to know oh what happened why is he like this this is interesting he's a pretty badass character or seems like competent everywhere else but all of a sudden he's very incompetent and that would make the reveal of his story in the second book so much more impactful and just [ __ ] and it would put Cass at an underdog position at the start of the second book yes he he's been [ __ ] uh in has been C captured none of his power no money and he has to make a deal with peka Rollins like oh that is that is such a good starting point for a character this is such a lost opportunity and that's what I mean by when I say that this book is fine I I'm I'm saying that in the sense that this has a lot of missed opportunity and ways that you could really like hit it you know like real good I don't understand why don't mainstream Publishers just give us millions of dollars to fix all their books it's not fair wait somebody had a question for us by the way my question was really do you think there would be a way to be able to pull off the multi POV um I'm gonna be honest I don't like multi povs I never have I I very much subscribe to the George AR Mart we are alone in the world and so you lose something of the subjectivity of the world when you get to see other people's point viws I've seen this a lot in romance novels but isn't his books multiple povs yes but they're on different continents usually but that still runs into the point I have where like I hate when I I hate I hate that more when people are just in completely different spaces like at that point just make it two books don't put it in one if they're disconnected stories I don't disagree that his biggest problem is that in the later books they aren't even slightly interwoven so like in earlier books there would be like oh they heard about the character from over there over there but generally each character is off of their own little cast Martin also does a lot of really smart things to not have un like each of his chapters I could go into this but anyway no I generally don't like multiple povs I always like one I do like multiple points of views when the points of views are adding something that like the another character isn't because you're uh each character is biased we are learning more about the bias I ever said how much I hate multiple points of view yes yes you have um I think I'm the only one that is okay with it but I like it I like it a little bit tighter and and so for me a good version of a multiple POV if we exclude um some of them is in spinning silver I like what the three main female characters bring to your understanding of the world they are in some ways dealing with separate plots and different things like especially if you use Miriam and uh that's a very good point that's a very very good point point is that that book is made Stronger by the three of them interweaving and they are kind of connected enough without actually being on separate continents um not inter interrup but another book that actually I think the multiple POV helps a lot is Dune Dune is a book where it's really actually cool to be able to jump from one person's head to another because it's written in omniscient third person more so you will jump in a scene from one person to the other without like a chapter break and you get to see the characters trying to outmatch each other like do they know the thing that I know so I'm going to say the thing and that really helped one of the problems with the equel is that the camera didn't have like a reason from going from person to person's head it just kind of like wandered so the thing about POV is you just have to use it to like there you have to pick a reason you're doing the thing you're doing unfortunately I think this book felt fell prey to she liked all of the characters so she wanted all of their voices and all of their back stories cuz while we don't have flashbacks for jesper's past we still have multiple uh like we still have sto like he thinks about his past so we still learn about it this is kind of like the too much of a good thing type of thing where like there's a lot of really nice little things like sprinkled in but it's also the same thing as like each time I say this I want to describe it a specific way how would you describe D's food the food adapts yes that's what I mean it's where it is you sons of [ __ ] a a little bit overindulgent I knew she was going with the food but also food metaphors are great cuz it the taste of too much is very specific literally uh the one location went under now they only have one other location but anyway no there's this restaurant called dads and they just did like fried food on fried food on fried food on top of waffles and ice cream fried food it was like uh three burgers with donuts or pucks of mac and cheese that were the buns for a burger um and like everything on the menu was up to that and like some of the stuff was like they had this one steak and blue cheese salad that was actually delicious but even that had like so much stuff and reading the menu you're like oh oh my god oh this is too much like it just that's the same thing where it's like it's not even good at that point they won't pick the thing like there there's too much and it's too overindulgent and that is what this book is she loved all of these things so she put them all together she just and and it would have worked better if she just let the steak be the steak you know instead of like having all the stuff I actually am pretty like fussed about the fact that it's not from matias's perspective now because his Stern approach to life would have suited this book and the perspective of these other characters so well and it would have been so comedic too in a lot of instances yeah well he would have had to grow by being around these non honorable characters and he would have had to think differently and instead of using his muscle he would have had to learn how to outsmart Cass a little bit and take on some of that roguishness and the other thing is this is just a he his is the his should be it isn't in the book his should be the least non-modern point of view he should think like uh like a not like a person of nowadays with some very mild distant racism so this will be my last food metaphor but you know on Thanksgiving when there's so much food and you like all of it and so you put too much of it on the plate and so you don't enjoy anything particularly well it also it's just too much and at the end of it you you feel kind of over full and unsatisfied but if you had just three of those things on the plate at the same time you would have been able to enjoy it much better that's what this book is I'm not saying any of the individual components are bad some of the side dishes you might not like as much as the others but on if it if it was just like three components it would work better and in this case a story that focused like from matias's point of view more focused on his uh relationship with nah and then the the overall story I think that would be much better anyway plot Jesus uh so they they get wiin uh to go on this uh adventure with them and they're going to go by boat and it's uh the six of them and they've got some people on the boat and uh they go like all you need to know about the boat journey is Nina and Matias are like I don't like I don't like you we argue they they go on this uh Journey they get to Fida and once they get there they have to like leave a lot of their stuff and basically their plan is to break in through the prison because there's going to be this big old Festival happening uh that's really big in Fida and it's a really big party and they invite a lot of people in and plan is to get arrested uh get into the prison break out of prison by scaling a six floor chim chimney having an incinerator incinerator chimney um and then going across the roof cuz the only way to access the roof is through this [ __ ] incinerator chally go across go to the the place break him out of the break out the guy who made the terrible drug uh and then escape with him but of course stuff doesn't go well number one in's hurt uh on the day that they leave the boat uh they're attacked uh the day that they leave to go on the boat they're attacked by uh some opposing gangs through my favorite Trope torture actually works yay he tortures what's his face to uh um to find out that it was peka Rollins and it works like torture always does in books go ahead peka Rollins is kaz's like mortal enemy he basically robbed and conned Kass and his brother for all of their money and sent them onto the street and that's how his brother caught fire poox and how Cass caught Fir poox and nearly died and ended up in a barge of corpses uh so he doesn't like Pekka uh and Pekka Rollins uh is also going to attempt this Heist and at this point this is the point where Cass is like now I got skin in the game I need to take this from Pekka um but anyway so they go they get to Fara um they get into the prison while they're there they see Pekka's crew on spikes so they're like wow they must have failed and C like is peka here is this thing at this point everyone's bantering Wan and Jesper are argu like are bantering uh and and like giving each other a hard time uh Matias and nah nah has a hard time because she sees a um a Gia who has been on uh this terrible drug and they have to kill him and she like requires that they bury him in like the hard patched snow this is the point where the there's some tension about like nah and Matias at this point and then this is the point where the author's like oh no too much tension let's make sure that they're friends now like I don't understand why you wouldn't keep that tension towards more of the end of the book cuz they both decide like Hey we're going to kill this this Chinese guy when we find him they both because she's like I can't let this guy put grea at risk and do that to other people we I need to kill him and then Matias is also like and he makes grea even more powerful I need to kill him and they're both like for RKA for fan and they're like we we'll make sure that he doesn't get out alive you know and so they're they're now on the same team working on a separate plan than everybody else one of the weakest aspects of this book in my opinion is the development quote unquote of nah and matias's relationship I see what she's like wanting to do I think but it's not executed well at all neenah's perspective chapters are actually like fairly okay like I I like them just fine but Matias has seemed very bipolar from what he is like seen to be doing versus his actual inner thought and dialogue he's significantly more hateful um from other people's perspectives and he's significantly more like in love with Nina um and yeah exactly uh that too uh in his own mind and so when these things happen such as this truth that they come to uh with each other like I see how that would work at this point but I don't feel from either one of their perspectives they have been able to make a bridge to get to that point I should actually say really quickly that actually I'm going to take back what I just said I actually did like the idea of the two of them suddenly deciding like okay we can put our our beef to rest for a moment in that we are both soldiers and our purposes are aligned but like what would actually happen after this there is no world where we could live together after this moment and that creates emotional Stakes around what's going to H like what is the Fallout after this moment um but they can connect on being solders and I actually I think that would have been really interesting but it's not in the book they they infiltrate the prison while they're infiltrating the prison they see a tank save that for later just in cases um and they go and part of the plan is that in are supposed to climb up the thing nah and Matias are supposed to look upstairs to see if um the guy that they're trying to get is held in the prison uh but instead Cass goes with nah up like five six flights of stairs again shouldn't be able to do that but he does it because he's looking to see if peka Rollins is still alive he goes and he finds peka Rollins and then it cuts so you're like o does he kill him cuz this whole time he has wanted revenge on peka Rollins I was going to be very [ __ ] disappointed in him if he had killed him I was like oh my God come on you cannot tell me Cass is that dumb of a character he was just built up as his chest master finesser and he's going to go murder this dude and wi literally that's where my belief started draining and then but that's because of the perspectives but also it it makes no sense that he wouldn't kill peka Rollins after he [ __ ] the mission to go find peka Rollins like it just I don't this book is going to look in your face and say He Wants Revenge but death isn't too good he wants to take everything Pekka owns and and and make him beg for mercy and and money and make him a popper like he made them and apparently that's better than just I don't know killing him uh so he literally frees him spoiler anyway so he goes and does that nah is like where the [ __ ] is Cass she goes to find him ends up uh some guards find her she makes them pass out but the one as he falls his gun goes off so now everybody knows they're there this yellow alarm goes off uh meanwhile down in the incinerator the incinerator had been run that day when they thought in the afternoon when they thought it was only run in the morning morning so it is very warm still inside the incinerator so in has to scale a hot incinerator thing this shouldn't have happened unless her hands are [ __ ] like just calluses this incinerator is so hot that they drop a piece of cloth down and like a few feet down it burns in the middle of the air before it hits the coals the rubber on her shoes starts to melt I'm sorry if the rubber on your shoes is starting to melt your hands AR are now like finger crisps like that's what's going on she no she's wearing leather gloves it's not the leather gloves would crisp well and also they have holes in the fingers remember I they mentioned that so that he can feel things but anyway you guys are missing the best part which is that this is her moment of character growth this is the moment this is the deep dark night of the Soul it's so weird how you know what it's like it's like in The Dark Knight Rises where he's going up the the um the whole thing and he's climbing up but like at least it has something to do with Batman's character where this is just a physical exertion that she's now thinking about and is now changing her view and like she's decided she's going to push through yeah and also why is this the moment she decides she's going to go after slavers it's so dumb it would make so much more sense to see the greas captured or to see like some other people being taken by slavers and be like this is what I'm going like for her to come out of so it would make more sense is if she came out of this physically terrible situation she came out of it and she was like I am strong I can do anything and then at a later Point went you know what I'm [ __ ] going after slavers I can do anything actually you know what would have been better if she saw how somehow the underworld of uh keram was complicit in the slave thing and she realizes oh no I can't stay here with my family my family is complicit in this thing I hate I must you know yes so I thought that was basically what Lee bardugo was trying to say without saying it well also why didn't they just cuz uh what's her face worked for the White Rose why didn't they just smuggle why didn't they just ask the white rose to smuggle nah and in as white rose I already thought about that yes I know I was going to completely forget about that but that is the thing is like cuz they mentioned at the same point when they mention the prison they say there will be dancers performers and women coming in from C I thought that was going to be the next part I literally thought he was going to suggest the white rose send them or like strike a deal with what's her F how much more interesting would Ina's story have been if they had struck a deal with the managerie and said hey uh don't worry about what's happening I will give you this much money to take these girls in with you you know and also uh what's her face like and and then for the plan to be for them to have to change what's her Face's face beforehand like like why I don't don't understand why that I why their idea was prison I don't but I don't either I Maria I'm so glad you brought that up cuz I just remember thinking when he was talking to her uh nah in her room at the White Rose I was like oh so that's why he's asking her because one she knows Matias but two she works for the right Rose so they're going to go in as like high-end prostitutes and they think all the other people died on the ship who knew nah as a as a grea like it's a brilliant and that's that is is a much better oh [ __ ] we didn't realize this other person was alive and would recognize her uh problem like that is way way better as a as a a like oh man look at this wrench in the machinery and exactly and you also already have that pre-built in moment since we're all going to be from matias's perspective in R right where nah has to wear revealing clothes so Maas has to deal with the part where he sees her boobies and also we get to see him see his old Mentor who he thought was dead immediately from his point of view we don't see it from Nina's and then cut to him noticing broom I feel like it was supposed to be this yes like yeah there should have been actual emotional stakes and complexity going on part of the problem is that um bardugo is not willing to deal with the fact that Matias is not a good person if he actually believes all the things he should believe and so it's mostly just like again like he's a normal guy who like maybe was kind of racist in his past and he's maybe like a little racist now but whatever he doesn't have strong feelings about like the Brotherhood he worked with or his mentor his mentor is also a cartoonish character that's another problem she has all her bad characters are so cartoonish my God dud why why didn't they make him complex why didn't they make bro complex so dumb he is so cartoonishly evil he literally twirled the mustache at one point by saying oh you want me to push this button but not just that also that that moment where Matias has been like the the things that he had done had always been hard for him but he he realized in this moment that for broom it had been a pleasure that shouldn't have been it it should have been like he looked at Brum saw his Humanity still loved him as a person but had to make this choice that he had come to how much more impactful would that have been rather than just bro being like yes indeed I am hecking e like or it could have actually played into Maybe themes of matias's Journey where the fans uh one of the reasons they're against witches is because they have very rigid roles in society and that's why their gender roles are rigid and so rigidity is something that he favors but having to go be with the crows and work through this thing he has become less rigid and he meets his his his mentor again but he realizes he has changed that his mentor is too rigid he keeps too much to these things and he cannot change versus just being like well we were morally debunked the whole time hope to dust says I missed what happened why it's Katie on the floor you Miss Katie dying I think I broke my wheel that's hysterical in the world where we have mathas as our main perspective uh enz's uh elucidation to this fact that she wants to go hunt down slavers would work super well if there was another suly girl or something like that or another girl from another country um suly is her like uh race basically Romani Romani Indians if she did go to the ice palace or whatever as a managerie like H and um had there were one of the other girls the films was or something like that you know what I mean like it could have been an easy flashback to who she was and being underneath her um what's her name again the the lady who hel yeah to be under Helen's control because that PTSD moment she has where she would be beaten naked in of her MH wild like yeah that makes sense so I just feel like that also would have worked even more so in tune you're you're totally right that should be the turning point of her character I don't understand why this Dark Knight Rises thing is the her character point of her character but anyway so uh she gets up the everybody else goes up on the roof but the alarm is going off which ruins the other part of their plan so this is the moment where they decide actually we're going to smuggle the girls in as prostitutes for uh the managerie and again why didn't you just do this from the beginning and make sure that people were on your and and then like Helen uh could have tried to betray them and then that's when Ines had to deal like it just would have worked so much better but anyway um so Tanta Tanta Helen uh but anyway so they they do the thing the girls go in um and then whan and Jesper have to go to this bridge and make the bridge [ __ ] up so that it shows a black thing so people get locked in different places and it allows them to get freed and then W and Jesper are useless characters I hate them they should have died by getting hit by a train go ahead Caz and Matias have to go on this secret path for how to get into the ice Court place they did their job what job the job of falling in love they were the slow bur that everyone was waiting for who gives a [ __ ] neither of them are actually even really people their flirting is not good it they don't tell you anything about the world or the other characters they relationships and they don't even have arcs Jasper's the same person at the end as he has at the beginning and we learned that Wan has dyslexia plot twist they they make this plan uh Cass and Matias going through like a secret entrance to this other place and they have to like they get guard uniforms and they they dress up like drusella um uh Nina and inz are immediately uh come up with the problem where in they don't think in is who she's supposed to be nah Gets In by virtue of boobs um and stupid nah goes into the party on her own she's 17 but go ahead I would just like to note how much [ __ ] a male author would get if he did this with a 17-year-old girl so in has to just hang back uh and then while Nina's like at the party this guy that she thought was dead who' been one of the people who captured her and who's like known to be like super rough to Gia uh broom is there and she she like decides so he comes up to her and she she's like okay I'll guess I'll use him to try find out where uh uh bo Bor is being held that's the guy they're supposed to capture or uh get out of the situation um but he's like hahaa I knew you were gisha I recognized you and mati like I I shall I it won't be me that'll get my revenge it'll be Matias and then Matias comes and he's like haaha how did you think I could ever work for you and Nina's like no I have been captured I was so angry I did like that uh lee bardugo made this seem like it was a real twist for a hot second because I was like no what where is this what I'm saying we were just in his point of view we know this is not what's happening and that's that she writes it as if you're supposed to believe it and then next scene mathas is like cuz it would have been his it would have worked better as a Thing If nah was like oh thank God Matias is here like he's like I got I got this you know or it's because again and she's doing it from a visual media perspective cuz from a visual media perspective we would have seen the scene and be like oh no Matias turned like flag or to the dark side yes exactly but through Nina's perspective she should have been thinking about this the whole time so then we go to matias's point of view and he's like actually I'm just uh trying to trick this guy and then he he knocks out his like and and he has this conversation with his and again if this whole story had been from his point of view and we'd been like in his head watching him become less rigid having and him having a conversation with a man that he truly loves but realizes is too rigid and will never open himself up to different perspectives and despite the fact that as a fean he's not a bad guy like two or two uh um Matias he wasn't a bad person but he unfortunately cannot grow past these rigid structures and then have that heartbreaking moment where he has to like knock him out and lock him up like that's a great moment or like how great when all of this is happening and he's building back up like hey oh Father Figure basically right I'm back and I would love that moment where he doubts what he wants and he thinks to himself oh I'm home and like is welcomed and everything and the more he see you know how it's constantly in the book it constantly from his perspective says every time he's home it feels like an inverse of like it looks like looking at his home through like a [ __ ] up mirror or something basically and it's like it feels very strange his perspective now of his home how much more impactful would that have been if he just kept seeing all the harshness of the like regime there and everything and then having that moment where nah is being locked in and he's like thinking to himself right prior to that moment how happy he is how he feels vaguely comfortable but simultaneously there's like this nugget of discomfort like you can't ever really go home I also think having a scene where like maybe when broom first talks to him he sits him down he gives him something warm to drink sitting by the fire other men around him literally what I'm for a moment he feels as he felt but then he like looks up and he's like I can never come back here this exists this space exists but I will never fit this role again like and he's angry and that Roman and that could combo with his anger toward Zena but also his love towards Zena he's angry that his relationship with her has allowed him to see this but simultaneously he is very happy that he has been so it's like you know like the the converted holy man type of thing you know what I mean no I totally agree there could be a lot more weight there but uh Angry otter says no see bardugo can't do that because she is a hack I mean I don't even necessarily disagree but I think she just is only interested in the set dressing she not I don't know if you've been reading angry outter stuff but uh bardugo is on their list I know I know I can tell there's been a very there is a bit across to Bear there but um but I personally have no uh ill will and uh I I just see I see so many nice little like I just see somebody who's not quite making it and that's fine at least you're selling and stuff but you haven't attained the status of someone who can write a truly good book I don't think she ever will on honly I think she makes enough money doing this that she's going to stagnate I think 9th house is it depends on her well I don't know I just don't think the publishing industry right now is set up to yeah that's true help authors but we need to finish in the plot in the next five minutes so Maria hit me they they basically he gets Nina out they go off there's this point where uh they think they've been captured like they they walk into a group of people cuz the bells are going cuz Jasper and whan got the thing and it's like the black code and everything it's like ah but then it's actually Cass and he was dressed up like a drella and he like is like haaha and then also they they I forgot to mention this they found uh uh U Bor uh but actually it's his son cuz the the actual guy they came to find is dead and they've been trying to use his son to recreate the formula and he kind of knows it but they're like blow up the because he too the son is Gia and then the the the shoe father was likeor was also a Gia he was a fabricator and he was like I don't want us to have to suffer through this curse quote unquote so like let's damp it down but instead of damping it down the drug ended up amplifying or something like that to that effect EMAs is like no we can't kill him he's one of us and it's like nakama yeah but also like from Matias like what the fu CU he he also has lost there was something I was watching what was it oh in Guardians of the Galaxy when he's like we're all losers and he's like and by that I mean we've all lost something and it just it it kind of felt like like that where he's like like maybe in that moment he realized this is also someone who has lost a lot like but anyway it just it just kind of reminded me of that well it would have been an interesting reflection of the rigidity thing we were talking about but not there go ahead and they're going they've got the kid and they're like uh all the Drew skella are like give us back that kid and we'll kill you either way and then uh but Taz is there and he takes off the the hood and he T gets them and they there are these little pills that they have to take that make them breathe under water for 10 minutes um and like he there's a sacred tree in the middle of this like Island that they're on and they he like brings it down and underneath it is a is not dirt it's a spring like there's no dirt you just turn the tree and then it's just immediate spring that's why I don't understand that little part but like see look Lee bardugo could have sold me on that if she had slowed down because she she had the time to slow down because she cut down perspective um to slow down in that moment to describe the physical qualities of this area in a way that foreshadows the fact that oh like maybe it's kind of weirdly warm there and they're like like so it's a hot springs that's keeping the whole thing warm yeah now she did mention it was warmer it's not a hot springs though that's the thing a Springs like like maybe the tree was actually dead like and it was wasn't growing and we stopped to linger on the fact that it's like a wilted tree oh and they noticed that the leaves on it are painted they're not actual leaves and it's like oh the whole thing is a sherro and Mias is like the thing at the Center of My Universe like it has been a lie and he thinks no but part of being a spring which is my God is that life Springs a new and so then he destroys the old tree so that a new one can realizes oh he's the one that does it oh that would have been so much better also that kind of moment cuz what you're doing is you're denying us cuz Cass is the one who figures out that it's not dirt under this tree it's it's a spring that they can access but we don't get the moment where Cass realizes it like there's never the aha moment which is actually important because how you put stuff together like that is important to the reader because then you need to lead the reader to how you got to that conclusion cuz how it actually works is Cass was like his guess was right he figured it out and you know he he put it together and people the tree talk to them and that was just the water underneath and I'm like people know what Rushing Water sounds like I did like his monologue in and of itself I think that was a really awesome piece of like pros that I mean not awesome but I really liked it I liked the Cadence of it I liked the whole thing but again same thing you just said okay come on now like if the water's that near you would know it's Rushing Water or something like that like why like how much better would it have been if we had had it from a tius and he was like the the voice of gel which is their God the voice of gel is the voice of water and so it's like oh yeah no [ __ ] like there's water underneath dive into the water they have stuff that makes it can they can breathe underw for 10 minutes they get out meanwhile in is captured and she's being taken to a guard house and there like tant Helen is like she's she's not a part of my managerie she's a uh an impostor you should take her to the prison and they're taking her back to prison and then I I while and jper come and they were like oh hey did you get the diamonds and they make a drill they make a drill out of diamonds but like the whole point is she was supposed to like not go into the party and she was supposed to get some diamonds and like she was supposed to get herself uh arrested so they could bring her back into the prison so they could drill into the giant glass wall that has the tank in it then they drive the tank out of the thing across a bridge blow up a bridge I had to relist to this three times because I thought I missed plot beats and I didn't you Caz Matias and uh nah have already like on foot kind of or once they got off of the the river that they were in with the um kuay uh who's the the suly boy they rescued so then the tank comes and they're like oh what is that and Cass is like ha and then they they blow up the bridge and they're like now they can't get us cuzz there was a bunch of reinforcements coming after like there was other tanks coming after their tank for some reason I imagined it in Avatar you know how the fire nationally for some reason that's how I imagined it yes I imagined very very very cartoonish like little we got it and then at this point they're like oh no we're outnumbered we're going to go down fighting there's there was also an earlier point where they were all like oh this is my family I didn't there there's a moment they think they've succeeded and they're like let's go to the dock and get on our ship and they're like we did it Jasper's like ah we did it and then as they get to the dock they see it's filled with ships it should be empty but it's filled a whole flipping Armada of 200 men you know and and then they also have a they bring out a gisha heartrender who's on uh J PM uh and so that guy's going to [ __ ] him up but then Mina in that moment realizes there's only one thing to do she turns to the uh to KU and is like do you have any of the PM and he's like yeah I do she's like give it to me and has and Matias they're like no don't do it you're going cuz there there was a point where they heard that like you potentially don't get some people don't get addicted on the first try like the their first dose it takes to the second dose to get addicted and she's like I'm a Gamble and she like takes it down and she's just like like so so this is the one p moment where there's an actual problem that Cass did not account for and it is dealt with by Nina making a sacrifice instead of Cass having to cuz like in this moment with Cass and all of his [ __ ] there there needs to be a moment where Cass deals with his uh that he is fallible as a human and and he's the one dealing with it and no nah is the one that gets him out of here and has to take like this terrible drug I thought honestly it should have been that Cass injected her with the drug because that is a much that's like a genuinely morally gray not great thing to do it makes what's happen to her later worse in a lot of ways because it's a violation it would complicate the Dynamics of the group but it also would have been like oh yeah no he really this was his last contingency plan if things went really wrong having her do it doesn't feel very interesting in a lot of ways it even could have been halfway where like nobody else thinks of it and then Cass is like nah and he's the one who asks and Nina's like oh [ __ ] you're right and everybody's like no and Cass is like nah it's the only way how else are we going to get out of here nah and Nina's like yes cuz at least that way it gives her some agency but it also puts n Caz in a very morally gray area as well she had to have her Elfin laid moment every like you know she had to like come out and like be the Terminator it's also it's just not written very interestingly like it should be so interesting to gain it all power in that way and she doesn't move stop so she stops a bunch of charact uh soldiers Hearts they all die or die the soldiers do no she puts them all to sleep and then she knocks out and the drusella she also doesn't cuz Matias asks her not to kill them and she she doesn't even kill broom she just makes him bald which I think is funny actually they get on the ship and she has like two hours before she's going to be like withdrawals not good it sounds like she's on shrooms or something yeah Cass and Ines have a conversation where he's like don't go cuz in basically told him earlier like I'm leaving I I once we get the money I I'm leaving and I'm going to go fight slavers and he's like don't go in Ed I didn't like that yeah and she's like what do I have to stay for Cass and he's like I want you and she was like how will you have me Cass with fully clothed with gloves on she was so Weir really weirdly mean like where the [ __ ] did that come from also as someone who was used as a prostitute at a young age the idea of maybe someone who doesn't have a really strong physical uh relationship might not necessarily be a terrible one pause it should be something that they deal with later that took me completely out of believing in like a lot of things from there on out but it felt so out of pocket for her to [ __ ] say that and how nasty was that to say that I didn't like it it felt weirdly like [ __ ] as [ __ ] Hunty she had planned this ahead of time as a deconstruction of the emotionally withdrawn male but like it in practice it just feels kind of mean because this is his first step step towards it it's not like they've had a relationship where this has been a problem for a while she no wait wait wait but even worse she literally is saying immediately after that interaction just say one thing and I'll stay like he just said it he said the thing yeah yeah that's the weird bit and when you touched him earlier he didn't pull away and you obviously and you saw that he he was uncomfortable but he stayed he let your hand stay so he's obviously willing to work on it this was just such a weird earlier in the novel she says like I think two like one or two times she just is like all I need is this tiniest little sign from you that like this is not like you're not just using me as a tool basically and and he does it and then she immediately becomes like a hot scorching [ __ ] like I don't understand well you know it would have been a better conflict if he had injected uh Nina and then she realizes oh no you do see people as tools there is an ugliness there do you see me like that despite everything that I thought you were that's what causes her to to distance herself and it has nothing to do with his problems with touching again as someone who anyway so that happens and then like they get back to the uh the place they contact uh van EK to be like let's do the deal vanak meets with them on this like island in the middle of nowhere and it's like here's your money and then like but like haha I'm going to take the suie boy uh kuay and and we're just going to kill you and they have like uh Gia who are on Jord pan uh who are like tide makers and they're going to like kill them and then they he goes uh vanet goes to destroy the boat and K is like no your son is on that boat and he stops and he's like my son my shitty ass son and Cass is like I saw your letters that can't read and that's why I hate him yes even though he's smart enough he's smart enough to make like a ton of other stuff and and do things like he can make a drill from scratch with a diamond to to drill through uh fabricator glass which is like and it's like no he can't read his ABCs like and the other thing is it ties into none of the themes of grea like in the novel it's not like oh he was against the grea and the guy was part like there it should have been tied in some way thematically to the rest of the questions that are going on or should have been going on in the book but aren't because the book isn't very good but like No And it's just Rand I I mean I did like how spiteful he is constantly writing him letters I thought that was funny anyway he destroys the boat bam and they're like oh no and then they were like uh he he was like well I have what I need and Caz is like actually you don't that's not Co and then wiland starts speaking out of the the face of kuay and you find out that no one of the last things nah did before she went into withdrawals while she was still super powerful was she face changed uh Wan into kuay so kuay nah and Matias are elsewhere hidden away and uh in that moment uh what's his face uh vanak grabs the money and it's like aim for Breer but then uh Cass does a bad and he turns to look at anes to make sure she's safe which is so dumb he never has done that before he's so controlled anyway and he does that and in that moment vanak realizes actually take the girl too she can be our bargaining chip and he was like you have a week to get me my guy back to get me my guy otherwise I will torture her and uh you'll you'll be screwed and then they're like oh no this is such a hecking low time Jer is mad at some stuff but then you also find out that Jer is the reason that peka Rollins knew about some things because Jer talked about coming into big money at a gambling Den before they left and but anyway everything's good and then uh Cass has to go to peka Rollins who is alive who also made it back to from prison before they did cuz obviously he released him he got back and was comfortably at home like he should have gone home 2 days beforehand but it feels like he's been home like a couple of weeks that happened like my brain registered that in the background and I was like why is he like why does it feel like he's been here the whole time right anyway and he's like uh he's like I need I saved your life Pekka and because Pekka was like I got you bro and Pekka doesn't like Rollins doesn't realize that like he's caz's greatest Immortal enemy um has is like I need 200,000 Kruger and um some other stuff and I will give you uh my share in the the little and the um shipping container shipping yard place that Caz has control of and Pekka's like that's a great deal I'll take it goodbye and then he's also like man sorry uh and so this last chapter is from peka rollins' point of view but Rollins is like an Irish dude but he's also like uh oh uh Cass the ice Court Place was uh going to be easy cuz they didn't know you were coming but van X is got your number good luck and then he realizes Cass stole his watch his wallet his tie pin like a bunch of other stuff and he was like actually VC are you okay my dude and like That's How It Ends though from a comedic standpoint I was like what the [ __ ] I loved it but it was not like not in a good way like kind of like Tucker and Dale Versus Evil that kind of way yeah the thing about it is like it also it's like this is supposed to be the ultimate object of um caza's revenge and you've just turned him into a buffoon like Tu peka Rollins is not like a a a a worthy adversary and so it just feels kind of dumb and takes away any kind of Mystique or power you might have like in the show he's kind of scary cuz he's played by a kind of scary actor and like screws with people all right so Mar Mar has a hard out in 10 minutes so uh last thoughts Maria it was fine a lot of people enjoy this book I think and I think a lot of people really like it because compared to Shadow and Bone it is oh compared to sha this blows Shadow and Bone literally out of the water for me I hate Shadow and bow I think that people like this cuz they don't have very good taste um I thought that overall I'm sorry this is another one of those books that makes me like just uh despair for Humanity a little bit it's it's fine it's the lower end of fine this is the bare minimum that a book should be bad it's in my opinion no book should be wor like this is it this is the this is this scrapes by I don't like you have to take remedial writing classes but you're still allowed to write after this am I shut the [ __ ] up no it's not that bad one thing we haven't mentioned the action throughout is extremely glacial I was so uninterested what was happening in the plot in in the actual thing there's no character arcs this goes back to her thinking about these characters and liking them in isolation but then not actually in motion um again in's character Arc just happens while she's climbing a lad um Cass doesn't have one even though the setup for the sequel is kind of interesting um mathas kind of has one but like not we don't understand the motivation of it Nina doesn't have one um she's in the same place wiland and Jesper are completely useless I don't even understand why they're part of the plot their best character Arc is they like each other better I just really like science Fantastics comment a lot of people probably read it as teens let them enjoy it and then mature I mean again we've read very good ya if you read all of the Shadow and Bone Trilogy and then you got to this you were probably like wow his art you know like again like I said before I wouldn't like if I really love something I'll probably reread it at some point I will not reread this but I did like it a lot and I think for a lot of people it it it is going to hit uh sweet spots for them so I happen to know that like with Cindy really loved this book and I and she did not like the grea books at all um and so it's just I I think that for some people this is just going to hit like I think this is better than acatar and and like those kinds of things so of the books that people think are really good I think this is the least egregious of them but for me it's just like there's so many problems and so many like so much missed potential and again it just feels like this author just could not pick whose story she wanted to tell so she tried to tell it's too many things I will say she has Lee bardugo has one more book coming out this year or has a book coming out this year that's like a historical romance which looks interesting but after that I'm done with her as a writer I just don't think she's going to improve past this and her books are messy but not in a way that I find interesting um even parts of 9th house I liked more than this but and the other thing I think that helps this book not feel terrible U and be better than some of the other bad books we read is it's shorter like this is like a normal siiz book whereas those tend to be at least 6 to eight hours longer um measured by Audible and so like it feels very long but it's it's relatively short I'm not interested in reading the sequel yeah I'm not interested in reading the sequel at all I kind of know some of the stuff that happens and that really makes me not interested in it oh God are you interested in the sequel oh no absolutely not because I don't trust her enough to do it like I don't trust her to give me the Cass I want this ending was such like again ever since they entered the prison and onwards she lost my trust as a as a writer uh for the narrative and I lost you know like uh when I watched Mad Max Fury Road for the first time my uh what's the word I'm looking for it's a phrase where you supension of thank you Maria God I love your mine reading with me but yeah yeah yeah no I don't trust her well enough to give me something that I'll be happy with in the next book I think that's very fair that's kind of how I feel about her as an author I would be more interested in reading the sequel to ninth house than this I'm I'm more interested in going and finding some Nina and mata's fanfic okay all right thanks guys for joining us uh this has been great all right bye guys bye guys [Music] n

Channel: Unresolved Textual Tension

Views: 10,726

Keywords: six of crows, shadow and bone, leigh bardugo

Id: fu9uA7bPqk4

Length: 111min 39sec (6699 seconds)

Published: Fri Mar 22 2024