Returning to the Moon-The Adventure Begins Again-on Earth

uh uh the usual Spiel as you probably know ggh has a long-standing partnership with the ton County library and the library Foundation we are very grateful to the library for allowing us uh to use the this wonderful space so please remember them uh in your giving plans also ggh programs are part of the science and nature Tuesday evening programs that take place here in the library on the first and second Tuesdays of the month next the next program I'd like to announce is actually next year already I know um 20 January 2024 it will be on Thursday because um because the Tuesday is too close to the first of the year so it'll be on Thursday January 4th here at the library of course um and we are delighted to have Mike Adler uh speak to us again and his lecture will be titled Journey to the Sun and I'm sure this will be fascinating all right on to tonight's program I am very pleased to introduce Dr Shannon Cobbs novotnak I hope I said that right good enough it is not pronounceable or fanatic it's a real treat is Professor in the department of geoscientist geosciences and director of the University honors program at Idaho State University as a volcanologist her work spans investigating volcanic hazards from explosive events to using lava flows to understand the history of Mars and the moon her work includes field campaigns laboratory analyses and computational modeling she is a member of the inl's probabilistic volcanic hazard assessment Science Leadership team and and a member of the science operations team For an upcoming lunar robotic Mission and last fall she served at Johnson Space Center's mission control on NASA's simulation team preparing for the Artemis 3 crude mission to the lunar South Pole she has served on the leadership of two different multinational teams that have been awarded the NASA Ames Research Center Awards of e for excellence she has been awarded over $2.7 million in research funding and has 30 three peer-reviewed Publications probably her favorite brag however is that she was once paid to ride a horse up a volcano through the rainforest with a machete love it okay welcome Shannon thank you I I'm I'm I'm set to be taking over as department chair in geosciences next year may any of my faculty meetings be as efficient as your guys's business meeting just was that that was phenomenal all right let me get my screen back sorted here we go and yeah we'll need to dim the lights a bit because I will'll have some pictures coming up that are going to be fairly dark and we'll need to have some some dimness to be able to to see them um it is my pleasure to be back here uh speaking to you guys it's been it's been a good long minute can everybody hear me okay excellent I mean I I can go full Professor Bellow if necessary you just tell me like we teach outside we can make it loud um you know I need to start today by by making sure it's clear that I'm speaking for myself as a researcher who's been involved in the projects I'm about to talk about I I am not speaking as a representative of NASA or NASA employee I will do my best to answer questions that relate to some of their stuff but let's go ahead and put that caveat on all of it I am not in the secret inner sanctum I do not have you know those magic answers for some of it but I have the experiences of being one of the researchers that they pulled on board to work on these things and it's been a real privilege to do so and I'm excited to be able to talk to you guys about it now our big starting spot who are coming here is Shannon I'm sorry we're not seeing your slides on oh I'm sorry let me and I have one moment please I've lost my zoom set a pretty decent background for you know just throwing around there is that coming through now yes perfect except it's just that it's not the slide that's all right it'll give me one second to get myself back there we good now yep all right second time's the charm glad glad to have everybody online to actually see what I've got because I've got pictures from these projects that we've been doing so our our history of sex of space exploration they're coming back to Apollo you know we we think about Apollo we think about this really important time in history in exploration in in just incredible achievements that were being done and it's easy to think that it lasted a lot longer than it did you know the first Apollo mission to land on the moon Apollo 11 first people on the moon is 1969 the last is 1972 1972 is the last time that we had humans From Any Nation set foot on the moon depending on how you feel about the passage of time that's eight years before I was born and I am a full Professor right I can I can pretend that I'm looking youthful but it's still it's been a hot minute the technology has changed what we understand about our ability to actually do the engineering for this what we understand about the moon about Mars about space about how people work together about all of these things has evolved drastically now since then of course we've had we've had robots up there we've had robots going around on the moon we've had them on Mars we've made huge leaps in that front but you know we haven't actually had the people back now we've had human space space flight going since Apollo we've had you know Sky laab got you know you know Apollo so gets us to 75 space shuttle program ends 2011 space shuttle mirror you know ends 98 these are organized by when they start not by when they end and now we're moving into a whole new era of space exploration with the kickoff to the Artemis series The Artemis you know to Apollo coming in and this is ushering in an entirely new experience of what we're going to be doing for human space flight we are changing the paradigms of what this will look like from what we've had in the past of all of these missions that have gone up all of the people that have been in space which we actually have hundreds of astronauts who have been to space we've only had roughly seven um space walks or extra icular activities that actually involveed science almost all of them are engineering driven and this is a really new opportunity to actually really embrace the exploration side of space exploration now sometimes people want think well we're really good at robots now you know back when we were doing Apollo it really wasn't viable for us to put up a remote control car on the moon and let it do its thing we can do that now why would we actually put people back up there risk human lives because NASA is very very serious about protecting the lives of the people that are involved it's this is there's a zero tolerance policy everybody's in this for Collective safety but the human factor is actually really really important and that's not a thing that even with the advancements in AI that we have you know in chat GPT and me reading term papers real closely not with understanding we've got so much that we haven't actually captured an example of this an apoll 15 uh Mission Commander David Scott collected the famous seat belt Basalt and I see Hands is anybody have any idea what I'm talking about all right so when you when you are an astronaut with NASA even now but especially so with the Apollo missions you don't just get to like wander around do those weird little like low gravity bunny hops you don't just like let you wander and do your thing it is incredibly crafted is down to the minute you will do this you will do that you will actually practice all of these actions in advance we will not deviate from plan unless it's about safety so commander David Scott is out there in the little Rover vehicle they're driving around in Apollo 15 and he and his partner see a rock that looks different and despite the fact that they're not geologists we've only ever had one scientist laying on the moon not a geologist but he's received solid geology training and he knows that this rock being different is Meaningful this could start to answer some of these open questions that we have this is a thing that's worth having the problem is they're already in that little Rover and they're not authorized to pick up any rocks right now so it turns out putting on his full I'm a vaguely misbehaved aving astronaut scientist cap uh and we don't have any livetime video coming back from this this was not an option at the time he and his partner start to put on a verbal play for the sake of Mission Control suddenly David Scott's seat Bel doesn't seem to be fastening correctly this necessitates a required stop of the vehicle and the two of them spend this time talking back and forth on an open broadcast channel about how they're fiddling with a seat belt trying to get it work well Commander Scott is literally gotten out of the vehicle walked over picked up the rock turned around put it back on the floorboards gotten back in and his seat Bel is suddenly great and they drive back but now he's got this sample that we otherwise wouldn't have had and when we put something up with just just robots we lose again a lot of that ability to see that to be able to have that human factor of no there's something funny here and I can actually figure it out pretty quick whether it's actually funny or if it's just like a weird lighting angle I'm not going to have to drive a robot in circles and deviate from the plan that's very carefully crafted to be able to evaluate that and use that training and that synthesis of knowledge to be able to make these decisions that can bring us back really interesting information so as we're moving forward as we are returning to the moon it's essential that we're actually pulling that in we're pulling in the knowledge that we have and these ways of exploring and creating more freedom for these astronauts uh no matter how much that terrifies us as the people that are on earth we guiding them and telling them what to do so emis 3 uh hopefully 2026 um you know there's honestly been some sliding deadlines I've experienced with NASA post pandemic we're still going through the reverberations of that and Supply chains and putting things together this is an artist rendition of the actual Lander that's selected um if you look closely here you will see the two little astronauts oh yeah yeah they're little guys this is actually an external elevator that will get them up here's actually the door up here um and see where we've got the flag and we've got some of the box boxes around there to be able to grab stuff this is going to be going to the South Pole of the moon it's going to be going to an area in which we have permanently shadowed regions or PSR these are areas where the actual uh shape of the land the craters means that with a low angle sunlight that comes in they have never ever seen daylight without any daylight there and without any atmosphere to help move that warmth around that means that in these permanently shadowed regions we think that we essentially have these ice sinks we actually developing and growing ice cooled in these spaces including we call them fairy C fairy castle structures that're growing up as molecular volatiles water and other gases sort of Bop around get trapped in one of those and essentially can never escape and we're very interested in these gases these volatiles and these ice traps because they potentially do Supply a lot of fuel that would help us in the continuing expeditions to Mars you we're not talking about harvesting water from the moon so that way we can bring it back to Earth and drink it I'm sure some billionaire will try to achieve that you know like their one glass of the world's most expensive water I don't know but we're not talking about it as bring the water to Earth talking about bring the water as what we're going to use in the reactions to help get us the rest of the way to Mars be able to use this as Institue resources for communities that would potentially have like a base there to be able to actually build but this is a really big deal that we're going to be going there it's going to be very low angle light it's going to be wildly disorienting and we have to figure out how do we actually enable the astronauts to do this how do we enable the science team on Earth to provide support within the limited structure available through all of those mission control loops we don't just have an open Channel between a science room on earth and the astronauts walking around they don't need us chirping in their ears the higher priority after they've got that training is all of the safety stuff but they're still as a partnership up there going to be carrying the weight of the scientific Community for multiple Nations this is a big effort this is not even just the US multiple Nations involved caring that weight need to pick up the right rocks they will have very limited mass that they are able to bring back they have to pick the right ones the first rock is obviously going to be amazing it's going to be perfect we're going to love that first rock but if you bring the same Rock back over and over the fifth one is a paper weight you just lost the scientific value you could have had depending on how you're approaching this and so we need to be able to have the science team on Earth available to answer their questions and to be offering this sort of guidance to them uh to be able to support these astronauts so that brings us to Jet 3 so the joint Eva test team uh that started doing simulations a year ago the jet 3 team was made up of a group of scientists from across the US who were brought on to draft a simulated mission to the Moon a practice version of Artemis 3 in this part of the Arizona desert this is actually a aerial photo of the area that we were given it was down resolved to look to be at the same resolution of the imagery that we have for the moon and we had to start with well what do we care about knowing what are our science questions how do we organize that into samples what would we actually need what sort of observations or photos what do we need to get there and what are the rules of engagement for the astronauts who are going to be doing it built that up over several months trained astronauts they literally just threw two astronauts in with us they put them through a very intensive one-day geology training if you can imagine a whole group of scientists trying to shove all of their Specialties into astronaut brains in one very very long telecon can have a Little Bit of Sympathy for these poor astronauts they were great Sports about it uh but rapid fire training preparing and then we sent them out to do this now it's a little bit closer than the moon just a touch all of us during the mission were actually serving in Johnson Space Center in Houston uh we were in one like we were set up with actual rooms we were not like displacing the group that's doing the support for the space station but we were in that building and Associated buildings we had the comms Loops using the exact same systems we had actual flight directors actual flight controllers actual astronaut oversight Specialists some of them were running from various playbooks where they would just start like arguing that oh it looks like we're having a low battery on XYZ and science's job was to just fight for sence science do what we could to support those astronauts no matter what was going on to enable their science while those astronauts were out in the field in the middle of the night um so one of the questions would be like well why on Earth are we doing this in the middle of the night it's not that hot in Arizona especially in the fall and the issue is that when we go to the South Pole of the Moon we're going to have very very disorienting low angle light where it's going to be a sun hanging right on the horizon and you turn the wrong way and you're blind and you get in the shadow of something and it's somewhere that might have never ever seen light since the moon essenti she was there and so so the topography was created to create that shadow so we need to try to create this alien landscape so we're in an area with some similar volcanoes some similar sort of structures and hills and there's a team of people chasing the a astronauts with flood lights always standing on the same side of them so that way they can't turn in that direction because they go blinds in that direction but giving that same weird view that limits what they can see our missions we ran four of them um all starting from the same sort of Lander position and we on our duty stations needed to be there and checked in no later than 2 p.m. and we did not get released to stumble back to our hotel rooms until between 2: and 5: a.m. and then those of us who are professors got to record our lectures for class I was getting a little zombie is by the end no lies um but we're doing all of this to be able to support that team that's out there as they're tackling hypotheses and objectives related to vulcanology surface processes tectonics and age relationships now not all of those objectives are going to be key objectives for the Moon on the moon we're not particularly involved with surface processes we don't have an atmosphere we're not going to have Dunes we're not having that blowing around we get regolith which is all of the rock fragment dust that covers everything that happens after we have impact events that crushes the stuff and that it snows back down but that's not one of the priorities in the same way that that would be if we're talking about somewhere like Mars where we actually have some atmosphere that's going to move stuff around and that becomes a very interesting question again similarly we don't have tectonics on the moon but can be looking at on a more micro scale are we seeing flexures in the ground uh sort of fissures eruptions sort of things that are part of that sort of system that that sort of stuff we could potentially see just not tectonics and the plate tectonics sorts of scales we care about the age relationships like what came first what came second can I even tell what my units are or is everything just sort of a Dusty landscape now as part of our training with this the science back room team um you know was in Mission Control we had to go through all of the training we spent time getting training on how to actually use the official Loops that they use that's what they call uh to be able to communicate between the different desks this is actually Us in the active Mission Control you can see all of us there are just 100% fangirling out taking photos this is on the floor of active Mission Control while they were currently supporting space station work so what you can't see is the other side outside of the frame are all the people at the desks actively supporting astronauts who are doing work on the space station and we're there geeking out on the actual floor they let us in the spot you're not supposed to go um for me it was also a real pleasure I'm posing here with my former graduate student Angela Garcia who did her masters with me and she wasn't on this project like I was as an outsider being brought in she's actually on this team after graduating from my lab she now actually works at Johnson Space Center and is part of the team that's actually doing all prep for this and building all this get ready for emis 3 and Beyond as we're going through the training for all of this we also needed understand what it's going to be like for the astronauts the best of our ability our ability to work across that space okay Gap is fundamentally based on our ability to empathize with what's happening on the other side okay and you're not going to be able to take us and Mission Control and actually put us in reduced gravity and make us frustrated with trying to figure out how to break a rock in a space suit but you can do things like put us in virtual reality and have us fumbling around through actions where in this case you can see the screen uh to the side over her shoulder you actually can see her in the weird low angle light trying to figure out how to pick up something off of the ground using digital versions of the actual tools what's actually possible how is the gravity going to work starting to get an initial sense for that they also let us play with the gloves uh so you know put us in this is actually in a vacuum chamber right there that my hands are in trying to actually they in a real sick twist they gave us Rubik's Cubes I mean I if you want to make a point right like give us a Rubik's Cube these gloves are not easy to work with I was expecting though that they were going to be a lot worse you're talking about something that's actually pressurized from the inside this is essentially a giant air balloon that you're inside of it's rubber the harder part is where the joints are so here and another one that's around here you can't see through sort of the fabric they the joints on these are not lined up with where you actually have the joints in your arms and the reason for that is because as you're moving we need to not actually be creating too much of a tension spot in an area that we could actually blow a seam these things will leak we need to make sure that leak is never faster than the air that we're pumping in we need to keep them very stable when we're working on the Moon Moon dust is incredibly abrasive because it's stuff that we get from impacts into the Rock with other things this doesn't have an atmosphere it never blows around it never rounds it will never smooth out it is very abrasive so this has to be bomb prooof essentially so you're in this bomb prooof thing very heavy duty the joints are all feeling like they're in the wrong places is actually very common for astronauts to return from space walks deeply bruised it limits your range of motion you can't do all the things you want to do and that's even just talking about your arms it obviously gets way more complicated when we talk about full body movements you're not going to be able to do all of the stuff that you want so it doesn't matter how much the science team says just pick up the rock if that's not going to happen because of the limitations of the suit there is no getting around how some work even with having these gloves going through extensive fitting processes so having this sort of information and armed with our our sort of overarching four goals are we had to build four Evas or extrav vehicular activities so essentially four space walks um two of them were four hours long two of them were six hours long we got one rest day in the middle that was all the time that we are the astronauts were going to have to recover and to wildly replan if anything had gone terribly wrong which Pro tip everything goes terribly wrong something will always always go wrong the astronauts had to stay within about 50 meters of each other so they didn't have to be right next to each other but you couldn't really fully separate them to work on Independent tasks they needed to be close enough to be able to do co- support sometimes they actually had to work together if they were going to do a core of sediment which should be able to how we'd extract the ice that actually is a two-person job so you'd have to decide what task wasn't going to happen to enable that task to happen having them work together on it we had to count every gram that goes up or down um part of the plan right now is to be able to get back 100 kilograms uh worth of sample that's including the stuff that's packaged in we're going to have to leave behind the tools we bring up it's an exchange rate the the return vehicle I mean it looks like that really really big Lander canister thing that's not the whole thing that's actually making it back down to earth it's actually a very very cramped small space everything has to fit in a very very small space we had to be paying attention to the volumes and we had to be paying attention to the mass and if you wanted a fancy sample fancy samples require extra packaging you know you needed to know whether you were just picking up a rock that you could essentially put into just a simple bag or if it was one that was going to require that it was going to be airtight and it would have to have multiple fail safes on it to ensure that if it was a volatile sample none of those volatiles would be able to escape even as it warmed up and it went from being ice to liquid or gas so none of it could get out nothing could be be interfering with the people on the way back or get mixed into other samples uh we were only allowed to send one very long email to the astronauts each day you know we pray prepped them they had the plan for each day well in advance but if things needed to change we got one very detailed email and then a brief phone call where they could ask any panicked questions at the last minute to figure out uh you know page 36 bullet three what exactly do you mean here so we had to be extraordinarily careful about how we're doing this and part of that's because you don't just change plans on astronauts they have prepared for a thing we're trying to enable their safety and their success scientifically we can't just like Freestyle it geologists you know on Earth here I take my grad students out in the field you know we have a plan but if we see the equivalent of a dinosaur bone in an unexpected spot you better believe we change the plan we Chase that you know we actually talked about dinosaur bones as being the thing that when you find a dinosaur bone on the moon you need a chance to chase it and so we we're trying to find these ways to build in and enable that flexibility and that Discovery and that exploration but at the same time we have to give them something that's well-crafted that gives them the guidance that gives them how they're going to get to the places that doesn't leave them hanging um and with all that we just sort of turn them loose and hope that they can do as much as they can while we're watching live time from Mission Control at consoles trying to track their progress figure out what's actually going on and support them with any questions that they have but every time they ask a question it's going to take us passing it through a game of telephone through multiple other officers in the structure before it gets back to them and let me tell you one of the things we learned is that we needed to have put all of them through the brutal geology training too because the astrona asked a question that made sense we gave them an answer that made sense and the answer that got to the astronaut no longer made sense and that that can be a real challenge if you've ever played you know that that Whispers game or telephone game or you start with one thing and it passes around one small change in a word can absolutely change the meaning of what you're talking about when you're dealing with stuff it's got very technical language around it even if you've tried to simplify it down so this is the map of what we had planned uh four different Evas we started with blue then yellow then green then purple the individual spots on there are colorcoded based off of how desperately we wanted the data from that spot our number one location of anywhere was M1 but we found out shortly before we arrived we were not going to get it all and so we had to create m1b as a backup plan um you know but we've got anything that's in green super high priority followed by yellow then red and blue is sort of nice to have the points on this map were generated by having our science team broken into different groups based off of our themes and put spots on map where would you actually get the data that you need where are you going to get the answers to the questions that you want and then where can we get the spot that gets us the most answers that we possibly can so rather than saying hey I'm team vulcanology I get pride of place we're going to win we're going to focus on that and just sort of like do what we can with other things as we go instead it's you know well M1 is going to give us answers to vulcanology and age relationships and tectonics and said Strat that's our top pick and so trying to find those and find where they sort of clustered in space and find a spot that would be mutually agreeable now this turns out to be a very aggressive plan we were given how many minutes we were told how fast they could walk we were told how many minutes each activity was we had it all down to the minute spoilers it does not go in our favor because as I've been harping on already science is more complicated that and exploration is more complicated than that the astronauts are wearing these suits and we had to we had to wear them for the first two Evas these are Atlas suits these are two actual astronauts uh Zena on the left I've had the pleasure of getting to work with on multiple projects before I actually was working with her on a project before she was ever selected as an astronaut so it was really exciting to get to work with her again as like a real life astronaut now as opposed to she's on one of our past projects where her job essentially was carry the heavy things and she did it with a sort of Grace and like enthusiasm like yeah this is the person who's going to grow up to be an astronaut like this is this is a team player but they're wearing these suits to mimic some of the restrictions on their movement you can see those long shoulder braces coming down um you can see where they're sort of leg are sticking out from there it's going to make it harder for them to move they have limited view side to side they headpieces there have lights to be able to help inside of that suit there's actually an interior harness system to be able to accommodate the weight to distribute that so it's not just resting on shoulders but these suits are easily 100 pounds um if that harness gets out of alignment it very quickly becomes untenable it becomes awful and you can see from the background most of what we've got right there is lot is just grass but I want you to also Envision that they're about to have to start walking up hills in the dark through Sage Brush and these suits are going to really really add to the time it takes to do that and limit their ability to move and if any of you have ever spent time on crutches or something like that you can also appreciate that that sort of Mobility adjustment doesn't just affect your ability to physically get around it changes your ability to be thinking about what you're doing too because you're having to spend a lot of energy on the physical act of moving on dealing with the discomfort that you're undergoing and you cannot actually engage your brain in the same way so these become limiting factors they're also working in the dark so they've got depending on where they are that flood lamp from One Direction if they go on the wrong side of a rock the flood lamp disappears and all they're left with are just the lights on their suits themselves to be able to help help them navigate this is a real challenge you can't really tell where you are it is wild dis wildly disorienting we're trying to navigate and it's further complicated that on the moon we don't have GPS so as they're doing this they cannot even track their position using say a GPS log that's going to give them a lifetime tracker on their arm they they actually have are paper printed Maps that have alpha numeric grids on them they have to physically pull out from this little cart over here that they're dragging around across the ground and they pull it out and they try to dead wreck in their location based off of the things that they've seen around them on the moon that would be counting craters if they walk past and call out their alpha numeric grid position which is an enormous challenge to be able to know exactly where you are especially when you lack a lot of this broader consistency the closest we had we had the big spotlights representing the Sun and we had actually can't this is actually the service tent we did have a big inflatable glowing Earth set up so that way they could you know have that as also a reference point this big inflatable you know planet Earth to help them again with their orientation but you got to be at the right angle to be able to see it so supporting them in this we've got multiple jobs from the science evaluation room this is the team that's in Johnson Space Center we science leads science Communicator theme leads and different topics astronaut position correction because you better believe they're wrong more often than they're right when they're trying to call out where they are because while they do need to know where they are they're not often getting it right at the time so this person is literally their jobs to be watching the video camera coming back down from that person's suit trying to correct the location we've got listing play byplay What's Happening note taking samples cataloging photos as they come in all of this to be able to enable us that the moment they ask us a question we have an answer and that when we get to the end of that day we know exactly what we have we know exactly what we lost and we know anything that we need to edit for the following day you know when they were setting this up one of their big questions that NASA had was how do you how do you get these people to work together how do you do this because we're not expecting to bring in expert scientists to all come in and pretend that they are fully trained console uh um people that would have in like a regular Mission Control you know flight controllers where they head down they only look at one thing this is their computer they are worried about this exact thing they only have to report out about that one thing we're trying to build synthesis so originally they had us designed in a space that was a lot like a regular flight control room with all of us separately they wanted us only talking to each other around the room over these little Loops you'd have to do a press to talk to the person next to you even though they were five feet away to be able to do all of this have have you guys met enough scientists to already see the flaws here like I mean may maybe there are some scientists who are better behaved than us but this is a geology group you all know that this is not how we play uh to the utter horror of the people who are trying to do this they could manage it and see how we use the software and how we communicated we immediately started moving the tables around stripped other rooms in the building for parts and pieces I think we stole a television like mount in the room we definitely cleared out every sticky note they had ever had in their lives we rejected the software that they had custom built to support the mission because it didn't allow us to livetime update we shared screens like well this is useless we went to Kinko's printed out giant Maps started layering them on tables in the middle declared the middle of science scrum where you know this is where like theme leads would go to argue it out we got ourselves little toys we could use to move around like a war room style created the trench was there anybody who was getting info straight from the astronauts would be able to log stuff but now be part of the discussion sort of they received the info and could feed it to the rest of the room screens everywhere you know s Lead and saom off to one side so they could sort of observe what's going on they're the only people allowed to speak to anybody outside the room anyway position tracking that poor person had no idea what was going on with any of the discussion because it took 150% of their attention to just figure out where that astronaut actually was the as be like I've got a boulder and we're like there are no Boulders where you said you were let's figure out where you actually are or they'd be walking across the plane they're like I don't know where I am we're like neither do we you know but we figured out things like they could take a camera we had their cameras they had in their hands set for three levels of exposure every time they pressed uh to take the photo and for the really low level one they could hold that image in front of their chest camera and we could see it enough to figure out what they were looking at though even though their eyes and the video cameras couldn't see the landscape we could pick it up if they held Real Steel while they took that photo and we could use that to start figuring out their locations placing them around so we we really we rejected a lot of what they were trying to get us to do it's possible some that will come back but they've got it scen that they'll have for multi- years but this is sort of what it actually looked like screens up all around people standing in the middle things started being shouted we were constantly being told we were too loud they had to put us in a removed space you can't see it through the extra screens but over here along this wall our group got known we were Infamous for being the group that had all the best snacks because we have all of these flight controllers flight directors everybody else is actually still working this middle middle of the night shift with us but for them it was just more like a business as usual and we're like well no this is not how we work get the treat snacks is how science happens snacks are essential so we'd have this Buffet people would be sneaking up out of other parts of Mission Control to rate our snack tables um and we'd get kick them back out because now they were too loud darn it uh the science scrum itself having all of these out at first we were trying to do this we were trying to figure out how we could label stuff on there you can see actually the origins right there starting to creep up the Post-it notes right there the little anybody here remember micro machines from the 1980s was like the mini race car like toy car things one of our team members actually had space themed ones from his childhood that we brought in and we used to be able to track their positions around and be able to argue out what we needed where things were uh we had big screens to show us what was happening in any given moment you could look look over see all of these things color-coded based off activity how much time we had elapsed four different tasks what was going on and be able to quickly scroll back if we had any questions that we needed obviously we're very very serious about keeping ourselves on the floor we're crawling on tables we're crawling on chairs we're trying to get better views of things I'm fairly certain the engineers at this point started to consider us basically the monkey cage like we were the monkey pit at the zoo but the monkeys were driving we were the ones who were coming up with the plans and we were the ones who were answering all those key questions as we chased our little astronaut figurines around this map and turned it into absolute Post-it pandemonium we decided the regular posits were too big they were clumsy we started slicing them up into really small things labeling them color coding them from different stuff being able to track what's going on what's an observation what's a hypothesis what's the thing that we need to go back to what's the thing that will never seen again what's the thing that we accidentally Dro something we should probably make sure somebody from the safety team goes and picks it up later all of the things all the annotations coming in in these colorcoded Post-its because spatial problems require spatial Solutions and the original software that was designed to enable us assumed that you only cared about what you personally cared about not that you were working as a team as a holistic group of scientists to actually get answers so you wouldn't be able to see what everyone else was doing you wouldn't be able to synthesize all of it together it was not livetime updating and I don't care if you've got 10 people all taking separate notes if they spend their entire time taking the notes to put them on the map then you've lost all the time for them to be thinking and conferring and arguing and brainstorming and actually getting to the juicy bits of the science that's going to enable it to evolve and make a difference that's going to make it so much better than just having a robot on a PR program mission go and do a thing so we can actually be able to articulate this and get that back up so let's come back to this planned map remember this is our beautiful view we had it all mapped out down to the minutes we knew exactly how long every single activity was going to take how long it was going to take to walk between locations we had like a like 15 minutes bonus on each one it was going to be great so this is what it looked like see on that first one right here the blue one we never even made it to the first spot they're wearing those big suits they got stuck in the Sage Brush the harnesses were not fitting properly um one of the astronauts just kept describing it as untenable but she was the one that was still walking the other one they had to keep pulling out h a weight bench to be able to set up so that way he could get on it so they could try and take the weight off of it we trying to fix all of his fittings because they couldn't never find where they were we couldn't also figure out we knew that they occasionally saw a rock so at some point in there we said give up on the plan find rock we'll worry about the rest later just find us a thing anything that's not dust or Sage Brush find us thing uh and they worked really really hard to do that on the next one they're still wearing those awful suits which at this point science Back Room Mission Control is essentially begging to have them released because of the fit issues where I think something just got off in it can we take them out of it this is just it's rough they were required to do two days in them so second day they start from this position M6 was our Lander uh supposed to come down here make it all the way to M8 come back out hit here and go back they started announcing they thought they'd hit M8 somewhere around here they were not getting close at all nobody really from our team care that much about M8 um it wasn't that that high of a priority so we all started trying to lobby for what if we just lie and tell them they found it because when you have to tell them that they've been working that hard even going up something like right here that straight line This is a gully they can't even deviate to the left or right they can't get lost they can count the grooves of things coming in past them and they can actually this is their best shot at signposts along the way and they still can't actually track it because of the physical strain that they are under and the weird lighting conditions um you know we we got them we got them pretty far in but but we absolutely could not actually hit M25 that was a loss we ended up actually recovering that on the fourth Eva but these first two Evas really really told us that all of the estimates of speed were wrong they were absolutely wrong they were also spending so much time trying to find themselves that we were losing even more time on top of the fact that it was difficult to move in those Atlas Suits now they were able to take them off for the next ones but if if I if I go back here you'll see that green one went way out to here so in the this one you can see we literally just Chopped all of that off when we had that one replan day and said well that's not going to happen now is it so let's lose that let's see what we can do to consolidate down you know also lost like a far point out of the purple one trying to consolidate to see what we could still recover what we could actually maintain and without the suits on they were they were much faster they were able to move around a lot better they they became like bouncy again you know they started finding bones and sending us pictures of like bones that they found out there they found a skull they found antlers and they're wandering around with like aners um so the joy came back when they're not carrying all of that but we're still missing a lot of these things we couldn't actually go to the original plan because of these limitations because of being over optimistic about what they could actually do and it's very very plausible that the initial plans that we will have for them in Artemis 3 are similarly going to be over optimistic we're not really going to know how fast that pair is going to go until they're doing it we know what we think it should be we know what slopes we they should be able to handle and what they can do but we're going to have to actually see it to see what actually shakes out how long it's going to really take them in the full suit in reduced gravity to be able to Chisel a rock off of a boulder you know we we've got all sorts of hopes and dreams about oh it's this many minutes it's that many minutes the reality is we're going to actually have to be very very flexible in what happens uh overall we had less than 50% success in what we were trying to do because I think this is really the the root of it at some level we had too many cooks in the kitchen we treated all four of our themes as the same level of priority we had every if every spot is important and a location on the ground is only more important because it solves more people's problems than actually really solving one problem we start to lose all of them and we need to do a better job of editing our targets so we have really one or two things that are driving what we care about and do and the rest of the things that are opportunistic wins along the way we can't make everybody happy and we need even when we're carrying something that has the weight of a multinational space program we have to internalize that and we have to actually reflect that in the work that we do it feels wasteful some level like no we're going to the Moon we're going to do all of the things the problem is we try too hard to do all of the things we in the end don't get the win on any of the things and so we have to be more aggressive about how we take that down how we do our prioritization all the way down to the objectives not just prioritizing the field targets we need to be able to have better ways to be able to replan we need you know to really make sure that we're continuing to develop how this communication works you know within the sence evaluation room you know I think by rejecting a lot of the paradigms We inherited we were able to get ourselves to a really good spot for that but we still struggled sometimes with when we had to pass that message through the chain up the mission control structure to be able to get to the astronauts uh at one point when the astronauts got salty enough about getting what they considered to be nonsense responses they finally were able to put a scientist on the line but it took an astronaut getting pretty salty for that to happen you know you know how do we how do we improve that how do we make sure that we actually have the right words that we're developing the shared language that's going to enable all of this to make sure we can get all of these layers working well so the jet five followon is in progress right now they were supposed to do their field campaign this fall it was the risk of the government shutdown this fall so in the end they had to Pivot they were delayed until spring uh that's giving them a lot more time to finish dialing some of this in to be able to argue more about some of the training closing the loops on some of that um you know I know for some of them it's quite stressful because it's adding a lot more work because these are really sort of short aggressive burst things but it's also going to be feeding them in the end the Artemis 3 geology team has already been selected we don't know who the astronauts are yet but we know who's going to be in Mission Control we know who's going to be in that science evaluation room they are already starting the process they will be on Console receiving training as soon as next month and we don't expect that launch to go until 2026 possibly the year after so that's giving them a lot more time now they've got the challenge that we won't actually know the landing location of Artemis 3 essentially until it happens right last I heard there were 13 contending locations they're hoping to get it down to seven that this group will actually have to plan for and design for because what happens is is if we get bad weather we can't launch on the day that's originally intended now our Landing ellipse has changed the lighting conditions have shifted we can't go to that same spot it might no longer be the best spot so we need to have an entirely different plan that we pull out of that cupboard ready to go with the same degree of science Fidelity the same expectations that we can have everybody fully trained to do this massive pivot on so they're already working on building those plans uh in preparation for Artemis 3 going up in 2026 humans return turning to the Moon whole new paradigm lots of ability to stumble on the way we're doing all of the work that we can right now to make sure that we do all of that stumbling in full gravity here on Earth so that way when we actually have that team on the moon we've got that team in Houston providing the sort of support that Apollo didn't have everything is going to be smooth sailing because we will gone ahead and done all of our Falls right here and learned the lessons that we need things like this are being rolled into that plan to support these astronauts so thank you very much and I'd love to answer any questions that you have thinking stumbling I was regretting as soon as I started talking that I'd pulled that up to make sure I had a charge spot I'm like I'm GNA put a foot in there I'm going to break an ankle yeah uh the intent is two yeah all of the plans of far designed for there to be two astronauts out there uh at a time uh they'll have similar rules for distance they're allowed to be separated by uh the plans mostly involve them working in parallel so they're actually working on different things in proximity to each other but do occasionally actually have to partner up for Artemis 3 no so in the future yes so in the future we should be able to have motorized transportation in the same way that we did for Apollo uh operations designs for that also would have that uh be a vehicle that turns into a Rover when the people aren't there so it would de it would be drivable on site by the astronauts or then as you leave you flip the switch and it becomes a remote control car for them to be able to prep the next Landing site with high res data that was for us for a second yeah so you talk about jet 3 you just said jet I presum it's a jet sort of yeah Jet Jet 4 was a really small group it didn't have a full back room team michig go Jets one and two were basically one person in a truck like jet two happened in Iceland and all of the gear blew away when they had a bad storm roll through and they spent most of the time in a truck desperately chasing it trying to like rebuild their stuff so like jet one and two very very lightweight just a couple like full-time NASA employees uh I don't think they for like jet one I don't think they had astronauts I think they actually had like a grad student just walk around outside in the backyard uh at Johnson Space Center jet 4 in between was another lightweight one where they worked on just trying to refine a couple very targeted things that came up this problems from this but the big problems we found weren't things that would be solved with that sort of small group that's so they've got to make sure they've got the big groups back inh you have or four people discussing something and trying to figure out which way to go you have somebody so you're telling me you've got plenty of experience as a scientist yes so so within the science evaluation room we do have a SC science lead and that person's job is to be referee umpire um like make the final decisions what's coming out the idea is that we're really trying hard to be generating consensus as opposed to actually having it you have to have a third person make the call and sometimes that consensus uh the one of the challenges that comes up in there is what is the force of personality of any one person how comfortable are they have you actually established a rapport in which there's you know academic professional intellectual safety and just being that's a stupid idea obviously we don't call each other stupid but occasionally there's moment like let's finish thinking that one through none of us has flept in three days so you know but to be able to do that and to make sure that we actually come out but we do have a s Lead whose job is to be the final decision maker and the s Lead is the only person allowed to speak to the S Communicator who's the only person allowed to pass the message out of the room I assume people s NASA new beer no beer no beer but we definitely would pick them up on our way home and we're the only people on the hotel porch at 500 a at the end of our shift cracking a beer um Sol talking that based on um so we've got we got some stuff that's better also than than L we've got um lro uh for some we've also sorry I'm thinking I'm I'm switching that's our good visual I was thinking like the the elevation for a second which is Lola Lola is rougher than that so we've also been able to build some um higher res interpreted terrains based off of lro uh and some of that to be able to try to do better than what Lola can do for the terrain mapping uh but we're still talking about um you know for the actual imagery type stuff somewhere around like a meter pixel sort of thing which I mean it's another planet it's a whole lot better than we've got for the ocean floor you know but it's it's still a challenge for trying to really really see what you've got going on there um and when you're talking about like big boulders that you essentially can't see because they're kind of hanging out at your resolution um it's going to be a real difference between what they've prepped in the VR and what they're actually going to face in reality MH so besides um what else do you to bring so we're also wanting to bring back actual rocks so the moon was formed elements we're we're trying to understand what all is going on yes so we've got a bunch of hypothesis about so the formation of the Moon uh it's cooling the changes and bombardment that happened in the time since then different um chemical provinces that exist we're trying to be able to answer a lot of those questions to the best ability the actual NASA list of questions that they would like to Target with emis is over 10 pages long and it's divided into these different categories not all of them are really enable with this uh some of them are going to be actually frankly better handled by robots so when we do the Viper mission that goes up uh next fall that one is actually going to have a meter long drill on it it's a robot that will actually drill down and it's carrying spectrometers so it'll actually be able to return chemical signatures of the gases um any of the volatiles that are sort of Trapped in there it'll actually can use its own belly pan to warm up the ice so that way it can pick it up with its mass spectrometers that's going to be giving us a different sort of view where we can actually get there's only data that comes back from that but this one to be able to actually get the physical samples back and I anticipate that the final plan for Artemis 3 is going to be informed by the results that we get back from Viper um that'll actually be used to sort of refine the actual targets and you know this not going to be the same physical space but analogous spaces a little bit over in the South Pole of the moon for like okay this turned out to be a real weirdo we got to get something that looks like this uh but we're looking for small rocks on the surface we're looking for a Big Boulder Field where we can ship off pieces and be able to see stuff that was locally excavated the ejecta is literally bringing stuff up from the interior essentially the volcanoes are bring stuff up from the interior so it gives us a way to go through the Deep geologic history of the Moon uh by extracting the things that been brought to surface yeah got a three-part question here were you able to actually hear the questions that the astronauts were um were sending back when they wanted some clarification or instructions that's the first part second part is is there was there a lag then um a simulated lag between when you heard them and then when they could actually get your answer and the third part of that is were you able to listen in as you heard your answer going through the chains of command and then realizing that oh my gosh it's this is not what we meant at all because they've changed this word to that word yes so we we could hear them livetime because there was a full broadcast coming back uh with their their suit cameras and they were on Open Mic channels and the their Open Mic channels were broadcast just into our room um when we were rejecting all of the paradigms they gave us we also rejected the earpieces we're just like that's nice um and so we just had it broadcast in for the entire room we there was no simulated addition of time between you know for like a delay uh for that when we've done missions to Mars simulations we've had had to intentionally put that in so in the basalt analog project that was the highest Fidelity ever simulated Mission to Mars uh we did that in Idaho in Hawaii that one um we actually had to control when that video would come into the mission control it was delayed by anywhere from 5 to 15 minutes and then the reply out from Mission Control had another 5 to 15 minute delay and we there was two just study conditions because those are both within scope of the or oral positions of where Earth and Mars could be they can range anywhere from 4 to 22 light minutes apart and so one of the questions for that was can we only do this work when we're within a certain number of light minutes from Mars when we're beyond that is it completely untenable to be able to do the support weirdly enough for that one we found the scientists everybody preferred 15 minutes to five minutes they liked the worst condition uh the moon we're talking about having potentially a delay on the order of like two seconds um you know there'll be probably a little bit of additional that will just creep in based off of having to go through signal relays but functionally that's not enough for us to spend the time actually like simulating that in because as it was we were getting it live time we have to look at each other we have to get an answer then we pass that answer through our s Lead who tells it to our scom who passes it to a person who's a level above us who gets it to another level and they can't just say it directly in time so if the person who is pretending that there is a battery issue on the Lander is muttering into the loops right then we have to wait for that so we actually got in trouble multiple times we got chastised by the flight director for taking too long to answer even though we started setting up a stopwatch that showed that we were answering within five seconds of question it would just take that long now our person who is our our scom who would actually the one who related out they could hear some more of those Loops they could turn them on or off to hear what was actually being passed along problem is there's so many different parts of chatter that are going through unless you're trained to be able to manage the competing chatter it can be very very difficult because those people like I might be speaking to you on one Loop you're speaking you know it's her on a different Loop but somebody else is listening to both conversations at the same time just sort of keeping an eye on we did have one member of our team who had actually had a first career as a flight controller for NASA and so weirdly enough we had him on the loops because he'd literally gone through years of training and experience to be able to do that and manage that mostly we had to reduce some of those other Loops we couldn't always hear all the intermediate steps but we could hear what they actually said to the astronauts so we would hear what the main person at the very top said to the astronauts and then we could hear the astronauts continue to talk back because that line was kept open for us to all hear but yeah some sometimes you'd be like how did they get that what who who are we hunting down right now who changed that word and sometimes it's also you're being past somebody else's words and you're having to wait 30 seconds a minute two minutes you know you start to lose the exact wording that it was yeah um I'd like to step in here for a moment uh I hope everybody is still on zoom and can hear me I have been trying to run Zoom from the library and it uh my connection's been very unstable and I have basically Bally lost it so if you had tried to chat to me with questions um please re do the questions in chat and maybe best just to chat them to to Shannon and I've got some they showing up right there I don't know how this it's always something all right so we got a question here uh in terms of helping the astronauts know where they are without GPS can a radar like mechanism from the Lander be of help absolutely so during the Apollo missions uh the later ones uh we actually have had a beacon it went from the Lander and so it could give you a direction and approximate distance I have my own hypothesis as to why we will not have that as the current plan is for Artemis 3 um right now the design for it is because they're on foot and they've got a really really tall Lander they can't go more than two kilometers out there's a really hard cap on their alloud range I think the perception was when the people were designing it this is again me me spitballing based off my experiences with it it was not declared necessary for safety and so it wasn't part of the engineering plan because they're going to find their way back we're not going to lose them they're not going to go behind a rock and get disoriented about which way to come back out the problem is is that we need it for Science and it was the sort of engineering and operations side when they told us that there was not going to be a tracking beac like that we lost our Collective minds and we were initially told don't worry about it your science starts when the Rocks come home and no no all of us know that it matters where you picked it up the spatial relationships are absolutely essential um so we after we' spent literally multiple weeks being really salty about this uh some very very heated discussions we got done with that first Eva the one where the astronauts got lost couldn't find anywhere that they were actually aiming for they were way down to those seits We Gather for our debrief at the end of that in this big you know loading garage loading deck space and the person who' previously told us the science didn't start until the samples came home looked at the entire room and said obviously we need to fix this somebody get me a better solution so I I have some hope the problem is the time delay between when you can like decide you want a thing and actually have it vetted for flight and installed and do that because of like the safety Paradigm you know the this absolute like we do not risk things perspective which is essential if you're going to use space flight you don't just throw a tracking beacon on and so it sounds like it's still not going to be viable for Artemis 3 and the timeline that they have to be able to go through the procedures to do this but for say Artemis 4 and Beyond this is something we should be able to anticipate uh as a thing that we will actually have to be able to help enable this we're also uh a team I'm leading right now out of Idaho State we recently got a three4 of a million dollar uh Grant from NASA using the volcano of the Eastern Snake River plain as an analog uh for the moon in preparation for the various emis missions and one of the things that we're also playing with is how to be able to do an automated location placement by just having uh photogrammetry that if you just put on basically a passive like double camera onto that little cart they're pushing even before we get the Rover being able to use that to create Point clouds of the surface that you're in and be able to overload overlay those uh using an automatic position location to the very low resolution pre-existing digital elevation map that you have to be able to give yourself actual lock points as opposed to for this one we had 1 person in science evaluation doing that manually and somebody in another room that was in the Eva office doing it manually and then arguing with each other about their own placements we also for this uh project we're going to have an Ido for the next few years we're going to be doing all of the work wearing a GoPro having a hidden GPS and printed out mat books with an alpha numeric grid that we're going to be having to call out our positions somebody later will review the tapes try to AR try to do position Corrections for anything and then later we can actually evaluate that against a Time sted uh GPS track log looking at where are some of these greater vulnerabilities we know obviously when you get a major feature congrats you found your spot but how much of a drift are we getting and what's triggering some of that drift when we've got those Open Spaces in between and can we do some stuff to be able to mitigate that uh to be able to help for that positioning when we don't have as strongest sense for that distance step like when I did geology and undergrad they handed me a Brunton some blank graph paper and said compass and paste go to it kid you know tie a tie a flag on a tree branch here's your scale for the day go map you know and that's a thing that you learn how to do you learn how to figure out how far is my Pace how far have I gone what's my orientation but when we take away sort of that regularity of the distance of your pace by putting you in reduced gravity where you're bunny hopping and we take away that compus orientation and we can have something where where you're instead describing it as son on my left shoulder you know we start to lose some that so trying to figure out ways that we can better incorporate some of those things in there to be able to help uh with that um yep and looks at the other ones were reminders from the audience that they cannot hear when you guys ask questions and I should have been repeating those I'm so sorry yes you you could I mean that that's what we're using on viper the question oh yes yes after I just said that I'm just jumping straight to answers so the question is could we use accelerometers uh in place of beacons to be able to help with some of that distancing um that's a thing that they would be able to install on the cart to be able to to help you're going to get a lot of like weird motion on the astronauts themselves we are using uh combination of accelerometers and wheel rotations on viper to be able to help measure distance but even that we basically are doing an oversight where every so often when they do the pause when it enters say night conditions and the Rover goes to sleep for uh 14 days they can actually do corrections in all of their positions to take what they were getting as uh sort of a rolling data collection and then shift it in space back to where they think it actually was so that helps by a lot it's a whole lot better than what we were dealing with here right now again that doesn't look like it's a thing that's on track to be included in Artemis 3 uh but could be part of that longer solution for future emis missions yeah seat Bel the question is if the seat belt Rock was the the anorthosite it is is actually a Basalt uh at leastwise it's named a basal uh part of what also makes it stand out is just how beautifully vesicular it is in that picture you can see all of those vesicles in there um you know the seat Bel rock is is an interesting piece to have it it's not it did not I think answer really really big questions like I think there was more hope that it would be possible for but the point is we wouldn't have known that without collecting it anyway um but yeah we we definitely care about having the anorthosite versus um like the low areas uh to be able to get the different different compositions and their distributions um we've had a lot of satellite stuff it's returning better and better aerial geochemistry interpretations for what's going on uh and some of the lunar meteorites that we've been able to analyze stff that's actually gotten kicked down to earth for trying to look at possible um like basically thermal alteration situations that could have been happening in that early development um as we're getting sort of the the elemental separations in the formation of the Moon uh but we really want more of those rocks and it's easier to I say it's easier to go get them than it is to wait for them to fall but yeah so some billionaire wants to go out Glory they blast this out and move Moon out of Orit and all right so so the question is is could a billionaire in a blaze of GL Glory um disrupt disrupt the orbit of the moon to actually knock it out of its current orbit um fortunately no we can leave that to the bond villains for right now um you know one of our our bigger concerns is as we're entering this new era of space flight as this is going from being something that's really just held specifically by by countries and like coalitions of countries but we're getting more of private sector involvement how is that actually working we've got the clips those are commercial Lander payload programs that work with NASA that maybe they're going up to you know a Billionaire's prep project or like a a research programs say it's not through an actual government but then the government actually works like also like partnering with them and putting some sensors on there type thing um but one of our big risks is contamination and understanding how much contamination we have and where it is uh as you're Landing one of these things coming down you're going to actually be having a jet wash that will actually be changing some of the volatiles it's going to be sweeping stuff away um there's a lot of research going on as to what do we need to know about it what's the actual radius of impact that's actually one of the things that's within that list of questions for Artemis 3 to potentially be doing is within that 2 kilometer radius that they can do can they actually make measurements of sort of the Halo of wash that's coming out from that um you know how is that going to influ future trips moon at least is sterile like there is there's no reason none of us think there was actually Critters that lived up there by comparison the Mar Mars is a huge Hot Potato because it's very possible that we had microbial life there in the past and so we have to be extraordinarily careful about when we put Landers on there or when we actually do human missions I said those those suits leak how do we make sure that we're not actually seeding the stuff that then we think we just found the evidence for uh so there's actually an office of planetary protection which the first time you hear about that sounds like it should be getting ready for the movie Armageddon you know like protecting us from out there it's really mostly about protecting out there from us uh and so we've actually identified really really key targets for astrobiology on the on Mars that we essentially have international agreements that nobody touches because none of us believe our science is good enough yet and so we have to keep them pristine we have to keep them protected and so we can do better in the same way that some of the Apollo samples only actually released to the public right before the pandemic and by public I mean researchers um they were literally brought back some were put out to research immediately and some were basically just on lockdown for 50 years until it was deemed that the science had come enough that they could actually let people study them because they were too worried about the destructive nature of some of our our evaluation techniques they didn't want to burn up the samples too quickly when our tools were going to be too rudimentary so there's a lot of thought that goes into you know how to actually handle some of these things what are the risks that we have from having you know you know a billionaire in a blaze of glory decides that this is this is what they want to do what's that going to actually do to what we can actually study so so less about worried about moving the moon more worried about moving the rocks on the moon and contaminating things that then will are going to make science a lot more difficult globally all right well thank you everybody thank you Shannon very much we actually have a a small gift for you thank you so much it was pleasure to have you and thank you again well um pleasure is mine if you want to like come gossip with me afterwards about stuff let's do it okay um so we can I I'm not sure who's actually hosting because I was hosting and I can't get on Zoom anymore so I'm just going to stop stop the share here okay um so if everybody would help with the chairs that would be greatly appreciated uh thanks again for coming out

Channel: Geologists of Jackson Hole

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Id: VlxN13nU7h0

Length: 77min 20sec (4640 seconds)

Published: Thu Dec 07 2023